Theist Spars w/ Atheists on Burden of Proof, Depression & Evolution | Forrest Valkai + Seth Andrews

[@jasmijnariel]

I am proud of him, openly admitting that he is scared of his world crumbling down.... he dare to say what millions are scared to do

[@Ichabod_Jericho]

100% when I was a theist it would flash in my brain “if god doesn’t exist I can’t support an afterlife claim or a forgiveness claim” but of course the threat of hell was too “real” to me then and I was scared to admit because of blasphemy and of course the number one theistic necessity; EGO!! Wayyyy too many have their ego tied to their worldview and it makes conversation impossible.

[@RoyalTurd]

Dude that’s exactly how it felt when I left the faith. It felt like everything I ever knew about the world was a lie. Through Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris I learned about secular humanism and realized that’s exactly how I’ve always looked at the world and that it was okay that all the shit I believed in was false because that wasn’t who I really was anyway

[@danco0]

I'm pretty sure the only reason I was able to break it was because I was young enough to still have that angsty fuck authority mindset. If I had waited until I was an adult and cared more about family it would've been wayyy harder.

[@gowdsake7103]

Dumb is dumb period

[@smashbrosgoat]

@@RoyalTurd it's all decievement. you have allowed the devil to let you leave the faith, but remember. god is calling for you

[@ralphmunn6689]

Community, tribalism, and extended families are all important, perhaps even NECESSARY for a healthy life... but so is HONESTY. At an AA meeting some while back, I "outed" myself as an atheist and agnostic to a chorus of gasps and outrage; I offered that it was OUR JOB to help ourselves and each other. After the meeting, a few people condemned me openly; but one gentleman quietly told me that a LOT of people there felt just as I did, but they just didn't TALK about it. SOMEBODY has to have the spine to say that "the Emperor has no clothes," and more people may eventually thank you and follow your honest example than condemn you! 🙏

[@deluxe_capacitor]

Tribalism is definitely not at all healthy or useful, let alone necessary

[@timg7627]

The second half of this video is actually a very profound message from Seth and also Forrest too.

[@blanktester]

As a fellow Indian American, I get Vihaan's fear of disconnecting from his culture and his people if he leaves Hinduism. My parents are Hindu and my mom is basically an atheist as well. There's a broad spectrum of different ideas within Hinduism and some of those are naturalist perspectives. If he sees this comment, I hope he finds his place. He's doing his best and he's going to keep doing better every day.

[@mikerodgers7620]

India is a place that has very good culture. Please never allow atheism to be absorbed into it. I have met good people from there.

[@Yaoigirlforever]

I am an atheist, living in India, married to a super religious Hindu man. I don't feel disconnected. Maybe because I am in India and there's so much more than religion to connect with people.

[@blanktester]

@@Yaoigirlforever That's a major difference. When I was in school there were only 2 or 3 other Indian people in my grade, and in college there were more but still few who had a shared culture with me. India is such a diaspora that meeting another Indian American doesn't really say anything about shared culture. Tbh although my wife was raised a Jehovah's Witness and we're both atheists now, we both find Hinduism much more interesting and fulfilling than any of the Abrahamic faiths. There's an extremely deep well of interesting stories that can be read and enjoyed as mythologies without having to take any of it as literal history in any way. Some people might even call us Hindus given our interest, though we don't self apply that label since it's a non-standard usage of the label.

[@mikerodgers7620]

You're an air head.

[@CNCmachiningisfun]

@@mikerodgers7620 *DOPEY* theists, and their kiddie fiddling gods!

[@samuelstone242]

The things Seth said toward the end there were extremely hard hitting for me. I went through those exact things and to this day I still haven’t won my family back. It is incredibly important for the psychological health of an individual that religious parents do not let their beliefs influence the way they see or treat their own children. I have 6 brothers and a sister and every one of them have been greatly impacted by our upbringing. I was the only one who walked away from it and I have lost everything I once thought I had. If it wasn’t for the atheist community and their amazing support I don’t know where I would be today. These issues are so real in society and there needs to be more done on the atheist side of things to help rehabilitate these people from the severe damage that has been done to their psychological wellbeing.

[@JeffCloutier]

As a lifelong atheist and quite an introvert, I realize that only now, community without religion is so important. I'm lucky to have other communities, like musicians, to belong too. I look forward to a time we can go to a human group and just exist with others.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

I'm the same Jeff but with my business of fixing computers I literally have to go out and put my "social" face on daily. Seth is so right that religiosity is largely a social and geographical construct. Here in New Zealand one's beliefs are usually kept to yourself. It may be wishful thinking but in a few generations I predict this will be an overwhelmingly secular country. A person's religion, or lack thereof, just isn't high on how we treat and perceive others. It might be just me of course and I'm getting judged up the yin yang but I feel lucky to be in a country that is so accepting, for now anyway.

[@thomasneal9291]

@@TheTruthKiwi " Here in New Zealand one's beliefs are usually kept to yourself" and yet, we just elected a literal evangelical xian to run the country. SMH.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

@@thomasneal9291 Yeah, if he tries to push his religious agenda in any way politically I'm going to be pissed and if he tries to turn NZ into a theocracy I'm going to start an uprising. He'd better keep his ridiculous beliefs to himself.

[@thomasneal9291]

@@TheTruthKiwi I don't think most Kiwis actually understand the very definition of what an "evangelical" christian even is. It is literally their DUTY to convert everybody into their way of thinking, hence the "evangelism" part. Either Luxon has to give up the title, or the behavior that automatically comes with it. Either way... he's nothing but a liar at this point. I'm ashamed Kiwis voted for him. Ashamed. I watched for 30 years as evangelical xians literally destroyed America. it's why I moved AWAY from the US after 5 generations to become a Kiwi 15 years ago. Now I see the same things I saw 30 years ago in the US, starting to happen HERE. There is a TON of right wing xian money coming into new zealand; it was what sponsored the ridiculous protests that happened in front of Parliament both times over the last couple of years. Brian Tamaki is drowning in it, for example. It's sad to see. quite depressing.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

@@thomasneal9291To be fair I don't think most Kiwis voted for Luxon specifically, most think National is going to focus more on the economy and reel in inflation and rising costs with its more center-right conservative stance. Labour was great for focusing more on the people, especially during covid, now we need National to focus on the economy. Whether this actually happens remains to be seen. I (maybe naively and over-optimistically) don't think NZ is ever going to become anything like America. Kiwis are too down to earth and we follow Britain much more than the Yanks, although predominantly American social media and media in general is influencing a lot of young people sadly. Australia follows America more than we do. That's the impression I got while living there for 10 years anyway. Generally speaking I think Kiwis respect America's power and confidence but think America's politics and inexplicable religiosity is a joke, but not in a funny way.

[@thepurplebox380]

Vihaan. From one Indian to another, it may interest you to learn about the Indian school of philosophy called "Charvak" or "Charvaka". It's a school of Indian atheism that predates modern Hinduism.

[@Jeewanu216]

As unorthodox as it is, I would feel my family out first in his shoes. But in the brief scan I've done over it, it's a wonderful set of philosophies(particularly the epistemolgies) that, with time and thought, could be a bridge to a more religious family. I'm mentioning this in my other post, in the slim hopes he might find it.

[@iamtheproxy]

I really like Forrest. He is intellectually curious, an extremely good listener and has a very sharp mind. Im constantly disappointed how many smart people lose their intellectual curiosity and forget how to listen. Forrest is fantastic at all three.

[@rlwemm]

Seth, you excelled again. You made ME cry. I’m so sorry I couldn’t connect with you years ago when you were in San Francisco. You still manage to make me feel that I am an important person in your life in spite of the fact that we have never met face to face. I’m sure I’m not the only person who you affect that way. It is quite a gift and I am so glad that you use it so effectively. 18:12 As for you, Forrest, I am in awe of your biological expertise and the way you explain it so that the implications are clear. I also love that infectious smile of yours. You are the epitome of The Joyful Atheist.

[@PDWEDD]

Gentlemen, I am very impressed with what I just saw. Forrest, this is the first I’ve seen of you. Seth, I’ve listened to several of your podcasts, but never seen you interact with an individual. MOST call-in shows (religious and political) lambast callers who are struggling with the topical concept of the show. You guys embraced the caller and were very kind. I almost didn’t watch the video because of the title, but I was intrigued. However, I fully expected a Bob Larson’esque beat down of the caller. I am happy you didn’t do that. I am also glad I watched this video. Much respect!

[@sheldonmurphy6031]

Good Ole Bob Larson! I rarely see that name come up nowadays. You have to admit, he was pretty entertaining! 😆 I started buying his books in the late 90. The first book I bought of his was "Satan - The Seduction Of America's Youth. When he started claiming demons were shape-shifting into his own image to cause fraud and other legal issues, INCLUDING his studio problems at that time; is when I started checking out. Good Ole Bob! Even though I am far removed from his line of thinking, it would perhaps still be cool to meet the guy. l😁lol

[@Ashoerchen]

You nailed it. I'm not harmony obsessed, but the battle-type debates cater far too much to testosterone overproduction, and far too little to the understanding of people who are struggling.

[@gowdsake7103]

MOST theists lie, tap dance and avoid any questions ! Now when a theist is honest there will be no need to be annoyed

[@BlessYourHeart254]

Seth and Forrest collab 👏👏👏

[@ianjedi1282]

Honestly they’re so good. Zero ego and just pure education.

[@rivertowne6911]

really digging this guy's honesty. major respect

[@ysf-psfx]

Seth, you are the best of the best. Thank you so much. Your compassion is moving. TBH the work you have done and your videos are the best replacements for sermons many people getting out of religion can get.

[@sparki9085]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that if you have a claim you need to support it? Especially when they actually watch the show!

[@kriss3d]

Because religious people very nu h generally can't be honest. Look at how they "counter" atheism. Ask for exact ans complete scientific evidence of every single step in evolution for example. Or how the universe or life began. They expect that science knows everything right now. And then they quote the Bible which is basically "God did it" and they accept that. Religious people are almost exclusively aggressively gullible and hypocrites.

[@iamnotgroot3693]

Because, in part, in the USA there is no state that has logic and rhetoric in their mandates curriculum. The education system here K-12 is entirely about memorizing correct answers. No nuance for those answers growing or changing, or anything.

[@zacharyberridge7239]

​@@iamnotgroot3693sadly, too true. I went to a pretty good public school system, but critical thinking wasn't touched until college.

[@bengsynthmusic]

​@@iamnotgroot3693 Why only USA? Most of the world is religious

[@crono276]

@@bengsynthmusic Most callers are from the US

[@Jax_Destro]

Me and my dad are no longer Christian, but we still go to religious celebrations with our family. My dad even likes to go to Catholic mass on Christmas as a tradition. It is amazing to have a family like that. It's unfortunately that a lot of people don't have that.

[@BilliamJoyBoy]

Sometimes I believe in a soul. Only because sometimes it looks like Seth is looking right through it

[@mikerodgers7620]

Seth is a blind heathen. And he needs a prayer for his soul like you do.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

😂😂😂

[@mikerodgers7620]

Hey heathen change your ways. @@TheTruthKiwi

[@CNCmachiningisfun]

@@mikerodgers7620 *DOPEY* theists, and their kiddie fiddling gods!

[@Ironic_daemonic]

Man, what a dream team. I would love to see them together again some time. Seth has such a deep understanding of the heart and soul of being in religion and Forrest has the knowledge and passion for education and they both positively glow with charisma.

[@MrCanis4]

The same idea. Forrest and Seth. I had to click.

[@mildredmartinez8843]

Yes ,totally agree. These two guys are super.

[@BrokeTheSeal]

Well said

[@theriffwriter2194]

I promise I just named them as my two favorites on a previous video having no idea they teamed up recently. I manifested it (woo sound)

[@kenhoover1639]

@@theriffwriter2194 Lol!

[@mildredmartinez8843]

This is the dream team of atheist society.

[@mikerodgers7620]

You're dream will be a nightmare sooner than you think. Atheism is not the bed you want to sleep in.

[@kevinkoch-jj1uj]

​@mikerodgers7620 Keep dreaming about your supernatural diety. Hope it helps you sleep at night.

[@smashbrosgoat]

amen@@mikerodgers7620

[@brettrogers4200]

mikerodgers7620 Prove it

[@smashbrosgoat]

why do atheists always want another way to believe in CHRIST when there's only one way to believe in CHRIST which is having faith in him@@brettrogers4200

[@sadafrahman7677]

I live in a religious 3rd world African country and I'm afraid that I might be fired if I come out as an atheist. I'm sure there might be others like me here, but how do I find them? I have recently deconverted and I have never felt happier. I do want to live authentically.

[@Bill_Garthright]

Would it be dangerous for you to come out as an atheist there? If so, you might want to find your community online. Good luck! Sorry I can't help.

[@smashbrosgoat]

that happiness will soon turn into a nightmare without the LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST involved in your life. trust in the lord and believe in him with all your might and he will grant you salvation

[@thenaturalmidsouth9536]

​@mariobrosgoat6007 well, it appears that he's happy because he GAVE UP that bs you're spouting.

[@smashbrosgoat]

you reap what you sow, naysayer, but JESUS grants eternal life through faith and salvation. the problem with atheists is that they want instant gratification and when they don't have their trials and tribulations fixed by god in a instant, they give up and leave god. that is not how we are supposed to treat the LORD at all.@@thenaturalmidsouth9536

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@smashbrosgoat *Evidence?* Claims are easy. That's why _every_ religion makes claims. So how can I take your claims seriously? Do you have _anything_ distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing them up?

[@SamKnause]

Great job Forrest and Seth. I appreciate and enjoy your shows.

[@jasmijnariel]

I feel so sorry for him and the million others that live in a theist world just because they are scared to loose it all. As a transpeople i lost all of it.... but i lost a fake and selfish part of the community. Now i have real and loyal people around me that really care for my mental health and how my soul finds peace.... I al soooo glad i didnt live for the happiness of others anymore

[@michaeltrimble7680]

I have been deconstructing for three and half years from Christianity, and I found this channel last week and can’t get enough.

[@genecurl6284]

I completely agree that community is important for everyone and that the atheist community needs to do a better job with community. I have recently started an atheist meetup group and I am trying to build a community of free thinkers in my area.

[@mmerri9780]

Agreed. Other than these online venues we have very little community. I went to an atheist meet up once in my area. Wasn't what I expected. Just ended up being a few dudes talking about work.

[@meinenklinke]

So happy to hear about Rhett! That’s funny because I did children’s ministry when I was Christian and we used the “What’s in the Bible” series and color me surprised when Rhett and Link showed up singing Bible songs in that series. 😂 It was very cute, horrible for all the obvious reasons, but very cute.

[@jestermoon]

Thank god for that! Oh, bum, wrong site 😂😂😂

[@margretrosenberg420]

When I lost my faith I lost the community I grew up in. I went to a parochial school from first grade through high school, and I haven't attended a high school reunion in over twenty years, because I no longer fit in. Yes, I now have other communities that I'm a member of - we even have pot lucks. But the loss of the community of my youth is very real and continues to pain me, even though it happened decades ago. If I could have found any way to remain in that community without lying about my most important beliefs, I would have grabbed it. Vihaan's decision not to look too closely at the religious beliefs he grew up with, for fear that he might have to reject them, makes perfectly good sense to me. He's protecting himself and his relationships, and he's doing it without attacking others. More power to him.

[@trey-rey]

The "communal" aspect is HUGE... I was part of a cult called the Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) for years and the way they ostracize people who leave and the intense pressures they put on their members to NEVER entertain the thoughts of leaving because of community. So many people are stuck in these religious groups/cults due to being socially ostracized or holding them hostage if they make the decision to be truly free. Seth, absolutely on point... love the message heard today.

[@ffrtheted7671]

Two honest lovely human beings ❤

[@Angua-tu3ot]

Love Forrest and Seth 💜!

[@mrshankerbillletmein491]

It caused me great confusion when I found that so many people at church did not really believe,

[@terrentech]

Testimonials - This is a huge piece mostly absent from the youtube videos I see. I remember testimonials being at the HEART of my parents indoctrination attempts of me and many others. I think we need more de-conversion stories / testimonials from callers and from hosts, because they walk people through HOW they can get out, let's them know that they CAN and that they're not ALONE. Personal stories reach people at the heart of their feelings, helps identify where the fear comes from, acknowledges how bad the emotional, familial and financial blackmail affects us all, especially the vulnerable young people at the mercy of their families.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Yup, which is why channels like this are so beneficial

[@secularteejay]

I swear Seth Andrew’s voice would melt chocolate if you set it by a speaker

[@michaelfickling4636]

Omg yes! If I already wasn’t gay before..whew I’d hear his voice and just respond “Yes daddy!” Haha

[@chrisarcher5573]

So would I​@@michaelfickling4636

[@PleaseDontBlameMe]

About Evolution. I often say to creationists. "You want me to read the bible, what have you read? Have you read the origin of the species? If you read the origin of the species you see that evolution is not only possible but inevitable."

[@buck4472]

Do you have the slightest idea of how complex DNAis and that 8 billion people on earth and all have different DNA. But it's so well defined that they can tell who your parents are that cannot happen by evolution it would be impossible DNA is just one example of how God has created man and the truth goes on there is more evidence that GOD exists and he created this world.

[@PleaseDontBlameMe]

@@buck4472 Please explain why would it be impossible?

[@PleaseDontBlameMe]

@@buck4472 This is why people have trouble with religious folk, They throw out what they believe to be fact but when asked to back it up (my other comment to you), nada, nothing, crickets. However if you do wish to look up "paternity testing" on Wikipedia. You will see its a simple process. So have your read "Origin of the species"?

[@TheTruthKiwi]

​@@buck4472So, everyone has different dna therefore god? That is a classic argument from ignorance and incredulity. You do realise that the complexity of life has naturally evolved over hundreds of millions of years right? Species that inbreed usually don't do so well and eventually go extinct. There are exceptions that have evolved of course but generally inbreeding doesn't work too well. Hence diversity.

[@CNCmachiningisfun]

@@buck4472 You *LYING* religiots are truly pathetic!

[@Jeewanu216]

CHARVAKA! (An ancient school of Hindu Atheism. This comes from your fellow Indian @thepurplebox380 As unorthodox as it is, I would feel my family out first in your shoes. But in the brief scan I've done over it, it's a wonderful set of philosophies (particularly the epistemologies) that, with time and thought, could be a bridge to a more religious family.) Vihaan, your story was a blessing, and even before, your genuine seeking of answers and understanding, your ability to admit to such a painful thing. I felt like I could hear tears in those moments and I cried with you. You'll never see this, but you'll always have people willing to love you. Heck, maybe more family than you know are also just being religious for simplicity's sake? I hope you find your path, may your days be long, and your bank account overflowing.

[@thepurplebox380]

Yep. Very true! Highly recommend feeling out one's own circumstances!!

[@robhaitch5544]

Yay, two presenters debating in a quiet tone. Calm discussion is far more persuasive than shouting down brainwashed theists.

[@mikerodgers7620]

Actually atheists are the brainwashed ones. Theists deal with the soul and aren't materialists. Looking and seeking to clone yourself in worldly things isn't the way. Jesus is the way faithless one.

[@johnmunro4952]

Unfortunately more Gawd Bros want to lock horns with the shouty bald guy. It's also far more entertaining.

[@xtianhunter]

Which can be entertaining also😂

[@flyguyry1]

Bc matt is not on this episode thank "god"

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Tough love is sometimes necessary for the arrogant and pig headed superstitionists but calm, thoughtful discourse is definitely more beneficial for callers that are rational and reasonable like this one.

[@happyninja42]

that wasn't "sparring" at all. that was a reasoned, rationale conversation about terms and definitions, where everyone was polite and acting like an adult.

[@KrissieSeaton]

Seth should be narrating audiobooks

[@ghostwriter4567]

This is my favorite host combo.

[@psow4062]

Just wanted to say that I'm incredibly impressed by Seth in this one.

[@WhizzRichardThompson]

Hallelujah Seth. 👍

[@ChocolateGiddy-Up]

Seth's demeanor is as beautiful and warm as his voice.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

I lost all my friends and social structures. But my husband and family are still with me.

[@Bill_Garthright]

_But my husband and family are still with me._ Good! I'm glad to hear that. I'm sorry you lost your friends,... but they don't sound like they were worth very much, anyway. And I'm sure you've made new friends.

[@smashbrosgoat]

im so sorry you lost your friends but im glad you are doing well. ask the lord guidance and he will surely provide it to you

[@smashbrosgoat]

it's not nonsense, it's the truth@@user-xs3fr6qd1q

[@ga6589]

@@smashbrosgoat What evidence do you have that your lord exists or will provide guidance?

[@smashbrosgoat]

no man shall see god, for we are all sinners. to believe is to have faith not by sight@@ga6589

[@alphaneo80]

Let’s presume that we have only two paths to knowledge: 1: Believe until it’s evidentially disproven 2: Disbelieve until it’s evidentially supported In option 1 we believe everything that can’t be disproven. This means we must believe everything that is non-falsifiable. How many religions must we then simultaneously believe, even if they contradict each other? In option 2 we believe in far fewer things, but we have standing in those beliefs.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

If only theists understood this the world would be a much better place imo. Unfortunately most see their religious texts as sufficient "evidence" which of course isn't sufficient for a reasonable and rational thinker.

[@pinky9440]

I feel sorry for this guy, and I can see where he is coming from. Loss of community was a very prominent thing in my deconversion.

[@gowdsake7103]

Then you were in a cult and your so called friends were not

[@pinky9440]

@@gowdsake7103 Definitely a cult, and you are right, I quickly found out my friends were only my friends because the church frowned upon friends outside of church context. So yes, when I left the church, alas, no more friends. Excommunicated.....

[@RoyCope-r9s]

As a Brit it's inconceivable that anyone would care that I'm an atheist. No-one gives a toss.

[@BillySugger1965]

What Seth describes is exactly the reason I enjoy my local Humanist community. I have no religious faith and no religious community, but I still have a human need to belong, and socialise, and talk about interesting things, and meet interesting people, and share experiences. But we non-religious people are still terrible at all this community stuff, and need to do better.

[@gowdsake7103]

Because being an atheist is not a basis for community, here it is not even relevant. Join a club in a hobby you enjoy

[@graymain]

I think both you guys are great . I'd love to go for a beer with you but i live in the UK. Maybe another time .!!

[@ianjedi1282]

These two host are amazing

[@royadambrown3101]

I am digging what Seth is putting down.

[@francesbell9465]

Thank you Seth and Forrest, you make me feel sane and like I have a community x

[@mikerodgers7620]

You're little commune will fail. God is the only sanity.

[@kevinkoch-jj1uj]

​@mikerodgers7620 Believing in supernatural governance of reality? That's insanity.

[@mikerodgers7620]

It's above your soul's wandering pay grade right now. You're still too young and inexperienced to understand God's plan. Atheism will only lead into a failed state. 😇

[@francesbell9465]

@@mikerodgers7620 *your

[@jemborg]

With all the gaslighting it's hard not to think we are under attack. Note @mikerogers7620 comment here... pretty aggressive.

[@roqsteady5290]

Seth’s approach that you don’t accept an hypothesis from the get go, is surely correct. Forrest OTH was somewhat confusing here. We don’t assume there is a teapot on Jupiter, prior to having evidence.

[@fdoe9184]

Among the questions I ask religious people......if you buy a plastic Jesus for your dashboard to protect you, why have it facing you instead of the road? If you get into an accident, can you get you money back because the statue is obviously broken because it didn't stop the accident? To believers.....you say God is real & people should talk to him. But if anyone claims god answered them, they are locked away? (Not as often, lately)

[@DouglasZwick]

Great video with excellent discussion on all sides. Honestly it feels a little odd that the title refers to it as "sparring" - seems a lot more to me like this caller just wants to know how these things are supposed to work.

[@michaelwood5117]

I was moved by Seth's story! I am now 74 and live with a prpblem almost every waking hour. My father was a priest my brother is a prirst my sister is an evangelical christian and my son (I love him dearly) "SPEAKS WITH JESUS!" every night! I am athiest but am not "out of the closet" . How to get out without causing tthem hurt!

[@johngriffiths2637]

Great conversation! Another issue with his initial statement is that, if belief is the default position, then we would be required to believe in every conceivable god until they are disproved. And because god claims are often unfalsifiable there would be no escape from holding a large number of contradictory beliefs.

[@mtbee9641]

Seth is so spot on with community and culture. It’s programs like this that will help people think about their beliefs and what is true. We need to educate the religious that atheism is not the negative it is made out to be.

[@Brynnthebookworm]

Absolutely! You can move to a new town and join a new church to meet people if you're religious. There really isn't a secular equivalent to that yet, except maybe in larger cities where it's easier to find a group to join just based on a hobby or interest. There used to be social clubs based around ethnic group, but they are largely dying out since it's no longer necessary to stay so segregated. Of the ones that are still around, the members are mostly old people. I hope someday even the smaller towns can have an atheist alliance group, or an adult LGBTQ alliance group, or a wiccan alliance group, or any number of others, without those groups being targeted for bigotry and harassment.

[@brentverc]

I love Seth. Just a sharp empathetic mind.

[@tgsquier]

Seth...i just so enjoy what you have to say.

[@Shasarazad]

I love that story at the end, Seth. I'm sorry about the bio family.

[@harlzberg6068]

Theory is well justified by tested hypothesis and facts, where as hypothesis on a certain subject is open to testing.

[@stevenread5473]

The idea of God is not a hypothesis. A hypothesis has to be testable.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Not necessarily. Even some generally accepted scientific theories aren't testable, like the big bang for instance, but there a least has to be some good evidence of it occurring/existing. The abrahamic god of the bible is merely an assertion as there is no actual evidence of its existence.

[@wholesomebunnyva8159]

​@@TheTruthKiwithe big bang cosmological theory can be used to make predictions. These predictions are then examined, and proven to be true. You can't get any more scientific than that.

[@dwood21851]

I totally agree with you forest. You can absolutely part Ip and attend in religious family functions. I am not religious and for the most part neither is my family, but they would lean towards the Christian side. My sister is married to a Jewish man so now we partake in the Jewish holidays as well and I enjoy them more than the Christian holidays.

[@knastvogel]

Greeting from your family in The Netherlands, Seth!

[@ChrisM-zm4li]

Yeah, I guess I can see the loss of community being a big issue. I never had a religious community in my life, so it was never something that factored into my atheism. I'm in a lonely place now, and I can see that if I had a religion, I could easily turn to it. I just can't believe anything other than I do though.

[@transporter49]

Seth is awesome.

[@petyrkowalski9887]

Why is it so hard for theists to understand that you shouldnt accept any claim at all without credible, testable evidence?

[@Imperial-Socialist]

Most were taught to not question.

[@Pigdowndog]

So glad I live in Britain where no-one gives a shit if you believe or not. In fact it's slightly the other way. People tend to keep their religion to themselves usually.

[@pointbreak8646]

I live in the UK too, North Yorkshire to be precise, I honestly can't remember the last time I heard jesus or God in a conversation between people out and about, at a pub etc. I don't know any religious people personally, I've met 3 Christians in the last 10 years I think. If anyone I know does believe in a God they have done an incredible job of keeping it private! I have found people have said they are a Christian due to being baptised yet are not a practising Christian, go to church, own a bible etc. Any God talk is pretty much none existent on TV, what songs of praise once a week for an hour? It certainly wouldn't do any celebrity or politician to discuss any God belief on TV or in the media, our tabloids, news outlets would hound them about it I reckon.

[@russellh9894]

Around 5:00 I think the issue with the caller is that he thinks it goes like this: Hypothesis > hold it true until proven otherwise > do some testing > fail to prove it true or false > continue to hold that the belief is true until proven false But I think Forest is saying it is: Hypothesis > test it > fail to prove it false > hold it as true until proven false > continually test it.

[@robertcutts7264]

RE: Social Death. I can remember when this was an issue for me, until I realized that at a basic level I really didn't like the believers around me enough to care! Ironically, a Bible verse came to mind, Matthew 7:15-20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

[@PoliticsInCars]

"I wish i could believe... but i have thoughts...." - Lewis Black

[@iamnotgroot3693]

Unfortunately, same.

[@toughenupfluffy7294]

No, it's 'fortunately.' You don't want to be charlatan bait, do you?@@iamnotgroot3693

[@semigeniusreally8988]

Personal experience has taught me that in your life, there are relatives and there is family. Relatives have your DNA and family are those who treat you like family with love, respect, tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. Oftentimes a person in your life can be both your relative and your family, but sometimes not. I gave up my relationship with my only son because he treated me without the love, respect ,etc. that I deserve from my child, even if I am a bad person and failed him as a father, which I certainly am not and did not do...ever! Buth the Universe has favored me with a family who gift me with all those family attributes, sort of a "spiritual family," and I could not be happier or feel more loved, respected and appreciated...in spite of my many faults as a human being. Once you come to appreciate that difference in relationships, you have been liberated to surround yourself with real love and stop being a slave to the negativity that people who should love you but don't and who simply carry your DNA inject into your life and rob you of true happiness.

[@liamhutfles4113]

I'm on vacation with my family right now. I moved out two years ago and stopped being catholic. They're all still catholic, but they want me to join them going to church and saying prayers on this vacation. I oblige just to keep from rocking the boat, but I don't like it. I want my family to start deconstructing, but I don't know how far I can push it before they reject anything I say ever. How can I introduce them to resources and information without overstepping or provoking them?

[@TheRatsintheWalls]

There's no easy advice. This is a highly contextual situation. That said, I'd start by discussing my lack of belief with them. Don't try to get them to agree, just understand. Only show them resources when they express interest.

[@ashurany]

I think part of the confusion Vihaan experienced was not understanding the role of the null hypothesis in science. Seems to me he treated the alternative hypothesis as the null.

[@Bill_Garthright]

I used to ask my mother why we had to go to church. (This was 60 years ago.) She always just said, "Because that's what decent people do." I never once heard my parents talk about "God" or "Jesus," but going to church - _any_ Christian church - was just the way things were. I don't remember ever believing it. I'm not even sure if my folks did, but I know they _wanted_ to. (They went to church together after they retired. Admittedly, that was probably because all their friends did.)

[@mikerodgers7620]

She was right. Too bad for you.

[@miskatonic_alumni]

@@mikerodgers7620 Most Trump cultists go to church, and there is nothing decent about Trump or his cult. To say nothing of all the church-goers in the past who either did terrible things or supported the people doing terrible things.

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@mikerodgers7620 You haven't met many Christians, apparently. Or many atheists? But please tell me, how about *one piece of good evidence,* specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge if for myself, that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? Just *one,* please. Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking? So, do you have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing up your religious beliefs? Why is *one* specific example too much to ask?

[@mikerodgers7620]

I have. And I know for a fact evil spirits and the spiritual world exist. You not seeing or acknowledging it doesn't make much of a difference heathen.@@Bill_Garthright

[@TheTruthKiwi]

​​@@Bill_GarthrightI wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer Bill and if it does come I'm sure it'll be pathetic. Regarding your post I'm assuming you're American and from the outside looking in (I'm in New Zealand btw) it a shame that christianity has been so ingrained in the American culture and is seen as "what decent people do". From what I've seen from popular culture and my own experience, that pretty much died out here in the 70's and 80's. There are still quite a few christians of course but religiosity doesn't seem to define people like it does in America. Americans also seem to love labelling people like right or left, republican or democrat, bible believer or heathen. We don't place neatly as much emphasis on lablels here which is obviously a good thing. Btw, If your not American I apologise for the assumption 😂

[@carrie5490]

This last section is so interesting as a non American. I’ve always wondered why secular ideas are easier to find in Europe and Australia than the USA. I now see that it’s because we aren’t religious as societies so there is no shame in leaving and most of us were never in in the first place. It’s a lot easier to be atheist when you’re in the majority and when you don’t have to come out to family and risk being shunned etc. it’s kore likely you’d be ridiculed for saying you believed in god where I grew up. We laughed at them and called them idiots so most wouldn’t admit it

[@Rossmonroe_]

People fear change and loosing what they have. If they give up on the imagenary friend that actual friends and family believe in, they may loose those people in life. It takes a strong person to say "show me the proof", sadly many do not have this strength.

[@terrentech]

I'm an atheist, and I resonated with this in a big way. And then I thought of if the tables were turned: WHAT IF an atheist household had a child in college that then joined a cult like Christianity or Mormonism or Scientology? Would the atheist parents be justified in threatening to stop paying for college? ...basically stop funding the belief system you don't support. It's not an easy thing in either direction, is it? I think it's important to think about this both ways, for consistency of mind and process. What do you think? I think religion is harmful, of course. But this is an interesting thought experiment. Unfortunately, it's reality for MANY I'm sure. Good luck to you all. Love you.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Good question and I'd first like to say there's different levels of belief of course from hardcore religious fundamentalists to casual believers, agnostics to hardcore fundamentalist atheists. Secondly, there's no threat of eternal damnation or built-in ostracization with atheism. You might get ridiculed somewhat but (hopefully) won't get stoned to death or threatened with eternal torture in some other dimension by other atheists. Of course I don't think the atheist parents would be justified as I like to think that atheism is more open-minded, rational and reasonable than theism and hopefully that rationality also pertains to other aspects of one's atheist life.

[@bobs182]

You didn't mention the most likely scenario which is the child would reject the parents for not believing. Converting others is a Christian mandate to save their souls. Usually atheists disassociate from others because the others rejected them. Religion is a tribal group identity whereas atheism is only becomes a group identity to defend against religious intolerance. Religion herds sheep while atheism herds cats.

[@robertt9342]

Just not sure how stoping them from being more educated and being exposed to new ways of thinking is helping them.

[@AGNOSTIC_incomprehensibleXIV]

The burden of proof falls on the theist who claims Gods exist because they're the positive claimant. Even in cases where atheists actually make the claim that there are no Gods, it does NOT fall on the atheist to prove a negative when facing a positive claimant. I agree with the idea of working on community and one way to do that is to immediately stop all agnostic erasure efforts. It might also be wise to open up to deists as well and since atheists love to point out how indistinguishable the deist God(s) is from not existing, it shouldn't be a problem. An ADA (Agnostic Deist Atheist) Community would make the most sense tactically.

[@jestermoon]

Take A Moment Sorry for my earlier comment. I am with this you man. I wish you the best 👌

[@mardy3732]

I'm afraid the mere lack of religious belief is not enough to connect people the same way religion does. Atheism is not a worldview, and most people aren't interested in dedicating themselves to it. There's never gonna be any churches in it's name, and it won't make people come together every week. Instead people have to find something that does. But this can probably never be as universal as religion once was and still is in many places. I live in Europe and in most old towns the church is placed somewhere in the center, and it's the tallest buidling there. It literally brought the entire community together and this was reflected in the very design of our built environment. This strong sense of community something we lost, it's lonely out here for many of us. I almost never talk to my neighbors, I hardly ever see them.

[@matthew6427]

Atheism def is not a worldview or something that is trying to get people rallied around it. I think people will always find things to gather around and right now, with social media and smartphones, people aren't. It's not atheism's fault & maybe it'll take a while for people to get away from their screens but I think it'll happen. I've been trying to find friends, looking for a band to play in, even organizing family get-togethers but it's just not easy these days. It's kind of sad but even religious people aren't congregating in the numbers that they used to.

[@gregorygarcia6542]

This caller goes to Church or Temple for the reason that most people do and that is community. Family and friends. I think the pews are teeming with unbelievers who just want to be with their family and friends and cannot disavow the faith lest they be ostracized.

[@LeCCComte]

WOW I think it's the first video i see where Seth has really the place to let him shine. The guy was amazing, so sweet, so empathic, so comforting but still giving good advises. Kind of the anti Matt "shut the fuck up" Dillahunty.

[@susiedawson3349]

Love Seth and Forrest together!!

[@toughenupfluffy7294]

If Bertrand Russell claims that there's a teapot orbiting the sun in space, way out between the Earth and Mars, then Vihaan believes it's true, until disproven.

[@landsgevaer]

Yes, and not only that, he must also believe that his god created the kosmos while at the same time believing that Brahma created the kosmos (as well as Viracocha, Atum, Gaia, etc.), while all of these are distinct, but none has yet been disproved. So not only must you believe silly things, you must also believe contradictory things. And that is simply not rational. Pity that wasn't pointed out very clearly in the show.

[@justanotherhuman8918]

Yes, community is vital, humans need other humans. What we don’t need is an imaginary god (or an oppressive religion) making decisions on how we live our lives.

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

M says : I have no boundaries! 😊

[@Dr.TJ1]

A hypothesis is based on an observation or limited evidence. Every random statement such as “I believe pink unicorns exist.” is not a hypothesis. Same goes for a god.

[@denverarnold6210]

He's put the cart before the horse. We don't accept a hypothesis UNTIL we fail to reject it. We can't test it, to reject or not, if it's unfalsifiable. So, can't accept it.

[@stephenbesley3177]

Even a hypothesis needs to agree with some aspects of what is being proposed otherwise it doesn't qualify beyond pulling out of your backside.

[@jasmijnariel]

For minutes Seth creaped the fck out of me, sitting there, staring creapy at us... But then he opens his mouth and says the kindest, most loving things only a good human says... Yep, i like him! 😂

[@edwin5419]

Fucking hell Seth got me with that story of the older lady legend. Did not see that coming.

[@shassett79]

I'm kind of surprised they didn't immediately point out that a key feature of a hypothesis is that it can be falsified. " I think god exists," wouldn't be a valid hypothesis without _a lot more consideration._

[@Dan-ys8nk]

Vihaan's statement is an argument from ignorance fallacy. This fallacy occurs when you argue that your conclusion must be true, because there is no evidence against it. This fallacy wrongly shifts the burden of proof away from the one making the claim. You can't pursue truth without logic, reason and critical thinking.

[@kriss3d]

Furthermore. If he says god is a hypothesis then he has to reject virtually all of the Bible as for example you can't both have god established to have spoken to people and then go "hmm maybe there is a god" if you're not sure God exist then you wouldn't be able to say it's God as its done in the Bible.

[@Dan-ys8nk]

@@kriss3d You're right. The conclusion must follow the hypothesis. Not the other way around.

[@diogeneslamp8004]

@@kriss3d Dude’s a Hindu so no Bible for him.

[@jamescampbell2521]

I believe Spider-Man is real until proven wrong.

[@GeneralFatman27]

Seth's velvet voice could probably convince me anything is true.

[@evenstoats2639]

I have some beachfront property in Malibu to sel Vihaan, its only $10,000, with a mansion already built. Start making payments untill you can prove it's a scam. Or even better "give me all your money and gawd will pay you back tenfold".

[@R.H160]

Seth is right. You don't begin an experiment by assuming your hypothesis is true. That would lead to confirmation bias. you would want to be as obective and neutral as possible. Accepting your hypothesis before you begin has you leading the evidence , not following it.

[@Pixelpunch3]

Honest question is Forrest no longer part of the line? Seems like he’s not on shows lately including skeptalk

[@Pixelpunch3]

@user-xs3fr6qd1q oh yay! Glad to hear that

[@glenncurry3041]

The mistake is to not understand what the alternatives to the Religious infrastructure is/ are. And that they already exist. It just requires a major mind shift. What are the alternatives, where do you go if not to Church? Bars? A major social infrastructure with many different social types to choose from. But no not for everyone. Libraries. Book clubs. They close them on Sunday mornings so they are not an alternative! Child care? No problem! Social discussions? meetings with similar and or different minded? Imagine what local libraries could do if the got the taxes Churches strip from a local community! Parks. Sports fields. Again. with the money available just if churches paid taxes! These alternatives would be very attractive. They are kept from being so on purpose. Joining local interest specific clubs. Car gear heads. Knitting circles... All could be arranged with the money then available. They all have to be considered the alternative as a group compared to a singular narrow focus demanded by religion.

[@MarkJones-fw3mo]

I gotta ask if God made the universe and knew the results of everything threw time why was it done

[@CNCmachiningisfun]

That is so she can punish us for doing EXACTLY what she already knew we would do ;) .

[@VaughanMcCue]

I suspect the clock spun so fast that it threw the hands off it.

[@Terminal.Rainbows]

Seth narrated "A Christmas Story" and you cannot convince me otherwise. 🤣