Crowdfunding breakdown: Haters, toxic behavior and backer disrespect

[@terrencemiltner1005]

The old adage I heard from my restaurant days was: A happy diner tells two people and an unhappy diner tells 10 people.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Well put!

[@kombainasable]

there is a fundamental difference between a game you won't play and game you can't play

[@TheKingofAverage]

Well put!

[@ellindar1]

There is ZERO reason they should be casual about being 800 days late. Ita ridiculous

[@bassmeo3937]

And sure, 800 days late NOW. Add another half year for prototyping, 1 year for production and getting everything to backers. That's probably 4 years late from KS before people even get anything.

[@retroarcadefan]

When he challenges people who paid money for a product that he hasn't delivered in YEARS to talk to him face to face, he might want to get ready to get a rude physical awakening. I would never buy any product from this clown.

[@josephspezia5769]

27:38 It's really sad to see a guy who is supposed to be supporting his customers and is instead attempting to stick it to his critics. So happy I cancelled this pledge.

[@crewealex1125]

It's disingenuous to claim that the only options are get a bad game or wait 30 months extra. There's hundreds of kickstarters that deliver great games either to time or shortly after

[@ScytheNoire]

His customer relation skills are unparalleled.

[@kevink1575]

8:33 That's me. RIP Justin. Maybe we will get to play one day if we meet again. :[

[@TheKingofAverage]

Aww man I am sorry for your loss. I hope you get the game, it's great and brings good memories of your friend instead. Devs need to realize that time is a more valuable resource than they seem to feel it is. People's lives and circumstances change over time. Thank you for sharing, it helps to be open about the true cost of these long delays.

[@Sthunderrocker]

You know I bring this up often and people think I'm being morbid. But I don't think some crowdfunders realize how many backers could die while waiting for a really late game. I can't even comprehend how many Kingdom Death fans passed away before getting the gamblers chest for instance. Even if it's just 50. It's 50 too many.

[@gameguy1337]

Sorry for your loss

[@theinnerparty5295]

And you are very much right about the people that will voice up about things. They are not haters, they are the representatives.

[@MikeP.-dl3yg]

800 days!!! - Trudvang Legends (Cmon) is 1300 days late from original date - waiting for the wave 2 Darkest Dungeon (Mythic) is 940 days late from original date - waiting for the wave 2 Lasting Tales (Blacklist Games) is 790 days late from original date.

[@toddferrullo1871]

Just to put it all in perspective, remember KDM has its new serious timeline... where everything will deliver 10 years from the campaign end.

[@SonsofSekhmet]

@@toddferrullo1871 I have some original KD: M collecting dust

[@Gamebent1]

Kinda ironic to be named Blacklist Games and then get blacklisted. TBH, I've blacklisted all three companies in your post.

[@Kamion991]

Im so glad that i did not back this one. The whole kickstarter looked like a clusterfuck from the start and had red flags back then.

[@SeerMagicX]

Two years? It took SIX YEARS to get our agents of mayhem solo expansion. Which just delivered from academy games.

[@AdamJorgensen]

Yeah, hearing about the AoM delays dampened my enthusiasm on Stellaris a lot.

[@TheMeph2000]

They took money for shipping the solo expansion a year ago amd nothing...

[@SeerMagicX]

@@TheMeph2000 I got mine a week or two ago.

[@eazrael]

If they really get 10k$ each week from new "preorders", they could also refund unhappy backers at the same rate.

[@spike2439]

What a weird venue to have an "interview" like this. 13:41 Oh no! His poor life is horrible because people are upset they aren't getting what they paid for!

[@Zifferony]

4:23 While it might not be a common thing for the crowdfunding campaign my experience is that it's all too common that a year or so in - when the initial fulfilment time is drawing nearer - the devs say "Hey we could deliver the game we said we would during the campaign, but we have had all these additional ideas and we need more time etc.". And at that point the backers are already in for a pound in for a penny. So there tend to be very few objections at this point. In fact if anyone at this point says "I'd rather have the game I backed on time than promises of something even grander" They will get the hater treatment from many of the other backers. 🤔 This is another toxic trend within the hobby which isn't coming from the devs but from the backers them selves. Also... "Come talk to me face to face" it's a bit of a challenge when a lot of those alleged 50 probably are spread out on various continents. What I hear is also him expressing a desire to isolate those people from the rest of the herd out of fear that it may be infectious otherwise. Instead of being defensive about it I think he should reflect on ways to change the way he communicates and updates the project progression.🤔 - Just based on what I heard in the interview. I am not too familiar with his project.

[@CommDante]

Aren't expansions the place to add all these extra ideas? By the time backers got the base game etc, developer could work on it for a 'free' year without any customer feeling so frustrated.

[@Sthunderrocker]

I think the best occasions where this has happened has been something like oathsworn or Cod. I feel like they found a good balance between improving their game and providing what they offered.

[@Zifferony]

@@CommDante that’s an interesting point. If they develop those new ideas as module expansions they could still ship the game people backed on time and have those extra modules shipped separately as a cherry on top.

[@malcolmsleight9334]

I'm a backer of Stellaris, and I come under the unhappy at delays, but silent group. I'm sure there are many more like me. It's not worth venting because nothing changes. The only thing that's going to make Uwe take stock of himself and his company, is if people stop buying his games. Personally, this is my last Academy game, whether it delivers or not.

[@stephensnedden1708]

100% Same for me

[@jakoboskarsson6303]

im in the same group as you.

[@TheLrdjustice]

Appreciate the FTC link, there is a backed kickstarter that definitely has no intention of refunds or delivering, and they're being advertised everywhere for stuff still, it is insanely frustrating.

[@chuck-n-debtaylor7553]

Stormsunder: 1144 days

[@Mr_I_Eat_Your_Doritos]

Yeah, we’re never getting this game

[@JohnDoe-jr4pt]

LSG is just trolling their backers at this point.

[@joeferreti9442]

The Stellaris campaign was one big red flag back then.

[@ThymeKeeper]

If I told people at work a project would be done by yesterday and it wasn't, they will get mad and I will suffer for that. You don't have infinite ability to keep pushing things back because have better ideas or things aren't working. They would LET me continue on that project (up until the point when they don't) but that doesn't insulate me from criticism. I feel sometimes like developers want an open ended calendar where they are free from anyone complaining. This is when people have already given them money. The biggest issue with the Kickstarter model (apart from scams or projects never delivering) is that you pay up front with not guarantee what you will get or when you will get it. The way this works economically is that every additional day a project is delayed, you are functionally paying more money for it because of the opportunity cost. What else could you have done with that money? Toxicity, threats, and things like that are clearly out of bounds, but if I give you money you owe me something for that and if that means I get a little bitchy, without doing or saying anything blatantly unacceptable, then you have to consider that a cost of doing business.

[@ThymeKeeper]

Much of which you said in the video. Sorry, I started typing too early :).

[@walkingtheland1]

In my experience, when projects get delayed because they want to perfect it you end up with a subpar product (see Siege of the Citadel and Trudvang Legends)

[@DanielEbeck]

Kingdom Death Monster has entered the chat. I'm not pre-ordering any more content from Poots. There's plenty of content in the base box and now that the Gambler's Chest has (finally) shipped, there's more than enough. GCE took.... 5 years? And ended up being as big as the Core box. And waves 4-6 STILL haven't delivered.

[@blindman9997]

At least for kdm for got alot more for the wait. Most of these games give you basically the same as the original crowd funding intended. Not saying 5 years is acceptable but at least you get more

[@PsychicLord]

I backed Stellaris, but had totally forgotten that I had until I watched this video.

[@w0lfang]

happy you finally made a video about this. This was my most excited/wanted game ever. it was meant to be my first 4x game. Now I already wrote it off as a game ill never get and lost my money. I have 0 interest in backing any of their or even playing any of their games. Worst thing is that 90% of the displeasure/hate they got going for them is their own fault and it is/was so easy to avoid. After campaign ended they banished would make a comment like once in a blue moon. Posted useless updates like every 3 or 4 months. The people on Kickstarter were all asking for more communication. More updates, more comments, just talk to your backers more. You going to be late? ok fine.. tell us why, how the progress coming along, something!. And we would either get a comment sometimes saying want to know more then join discord. we talk there daily. What? ok but we backed you on Kickstarter and this is the platform where you 13k+ backer are/would expect any news. You know like any other Kickstarter ever... yeah others have discord and what not but they didn't just talk about their game elsewhere and forget Kickstarter. Or "we will post and update tomorrow" update comes and it all about a card design. how the card used to be this but now is that. how good the art is or isn't. how many options you have with that card. how you can read that card and all its icons on it. ok great update bye!!... Wait what? but, but how's the production of the game coming along? how far are you? when it would be release? when would it be sent to be produce? anything about the actual progress of the game production please??? No, nothing. And that has been the updates nothing of substance. And now they keep saying the video game changed so we have to change, WHY? why? just finish what you had and then when the video game changes make and expansion and problem solve. Grrrr.... IM SO SORRY for the long rant... I'm very passionate about this game. loved the video game and was hopping to love the board game. but i guess not all dreams can come true huh? ..... Slay the spire though!!! hehe

[@mardrax]

This isn't about the waiting. Waiting this long sucks, but having a long wait for a crowdfunded game is sadly norm rather than exception, nowadays. I'd say most people expect it, and would be fine with it, if the communication around it were good. Which is to say, if it existed. Instead of communication that acknowledges target dates being missed and why they are missed, and what has been going on in the meantime, there is just an ongoing stream of 'oh, we've been busy with this same thing we've said we were busy with two years ago. Oh, and did we tell you we're totally going to be shipping in half a year?' Now even that wouldn't be much of an issue if there were visible, tangible progress. The campaign promised a Tabletop Simulator module. The campaign promised a rulebook. Uwe himself promised a rulebook on several occasions, including saying less than a year ago we'd have a rulebook by New Year's. We have been promised videos of playthroughs. Any one of these would have: - Made good on promises made, showing both commitment and honesty. - Allowed backers to see exactly what state the game was in, and what iterations have been made to what effect. But there isn't visible, tangible progress. Not on the gameplay front, anyway. There's almost zero insight into how this game is supposed to play. There's just the occasional cosmetic thing of "look at this mini" and "look at this player board." About things we've seen displayed as being new on several occasions. And we (that is, the 50 or so supposedly angry backers) have explained this to Uwe at length. Through Discord. Not being angry. Not being hateful. Just calmly explaining that these were the promises made, these were the promises failed to deliver on, this is why the things delivered on fall short of meeting expectations, and this is the information backers want that would rather easily make it meet expectations. And he's always replied with promises, that he's always failed to deliver on, that he's never even acknowledged failing to deliver on. And at some point, after having been explained that yet again, he left the Discord because he didn't want to deal with all the haters. It just turns out you can lead a game designer to water, but you can't make them see how having it be transparent is valuable. I'm sure Uwe is a swell guy, but he's clearly just failing at this entire PR thing. And I'm pretty sure I can say that without being retaliated to by being called an angry backer whose opinion is irrelevant. Because I'm not angry. Barely anyone is. What people are is disappointed. Because that's what you get when you don't deliver on promises, repeatedly.

[@theinnerparty5295]

This is exactly why, until the pledge manager closes, everyone should have the option for a full refund, no questions asked. Stellaris pledge manager is still open, 3 years after, raking money in. Yet they refused to give refunds from day 1. It stinks of a honey trap scam.

[@pandacozumelable]

11:40 Right, you got my money already, I am willing to wait for mass production and shipping but not for a product that is still in development, unless is offered that way without a delivery date.

[@S.Kapriniotis]

Stopped bothering with crowdfunding and I am much happier. There are awesome games coming to retail and, to be honest, I kind of like pimping out a game that I start playing a lot. Getting all the components deluxified before I even have the chance to play it once is not for me.

[@ant6227]

If you think the backers being vocal on your campaign page represents the entirety of your dissatisfied customers you fundamentally misunderstand your customer base and social media.

[@samharkin9981]

So glad I didn't back. Always got scam vibes from this one. Like there was no way they were going to deliver on all that they promised.

[@mpaice]

Stormsunder is my Stellaris. I haven't commented on Kickstarter, but I'm not happy.

[@TheKingofAverage]

You are not alone there :(

[@gaetanomarzulli5463]

Did you see Monolith's OPEN LETTER to the pledgers?

[@eddienelson8833]

Was about to say the same thing! The ongoing costs for development time are the biggest threat to a backer getting their games. Hopefully KoA does a deep dive on the article.

[@not_another_board_game_page]

Hey king, Whyyyyy aren’t you calling us “rockstars” anymore 😡

[@OPMDK]

ROCK STARS! 🎉 But good point, catch phrases, personas, imagery, all important for creating and sustaining a brand

[@TheKingofAverage]

I've flip flopped on this quite a bit over the years. Perhaps it's time to bring it back!

[@OPMDK]

@@TheKingofAverage Curious what the points for and against are; does 'rock stars' have n undesired connotation to it? Does the phrase trigger some demographics? Is their data showing that it doesn't matter either way?

[@derraldlosey1118]

Against……Nickleback.

[@derraldlosey1118]

Also Metal gods has a good ring to it

[@zhetarho]

You compared backing vs buying at a store. I think, the publisher is unintentially making a different comparison: board game backers vs investors. An investor does not care much about a turnaround time of a couple years as long as its profitable in the end (generalizing here, but you get the point). Because all they invested is money and that's all they expect in return. If I lock money in the bank and get a 5% profit on that over 5 years, that's a pretty good investment. But backers aren't 'just' investors, they are consumers. I feel like that is the major misslignment I see in this video/interview. Also, as an aside, a board game based on Stellaris having focus issues because they want to keep incorporating major new elements, therefore reinventing the game multiple times just feels really ironic 😅

[@BlakeAustin2011]

This guy working on Stellaris seems like he’s just whining and that backers should just shut up because customers don’t know what it takes to make a board game. While that might be true, his delivery is very elitist. Also, the negativity comes as the hobby grows. Why? The cost of these games have increased substantially, but the economy globally is worse now than 4-5 years ago. As such, people are being more frugal. When we back a game, we do so believing in good faith the company will hold to their word. When we back a crappy horse, and we find the developers don’t really care about the backers, it turns south very quickly. This is a quickly expanding hobby, and the companies have to be versatile to recognize it’s no longer a niche realm.

[@josephcourtright8071]

I suspect he is just overwhelmed and vented here. That's the CEO and I know from experience that the customer service emails went to him directly.

[@the_justifier4788]

Maybe they must give you a choice how long you want to wait past the delivery date... and give you a reduction each month 😂

[@zerosdeath]

Ahhh the good ol' gaslight. Love how creators act like this is okay. However, the board game community seems to throw money at stuff out of emotion. I stopped doing that, and saved a ton of money, and headache from creators like this. This is why my boss is careful with scope creep. We are scoped for this, that is what we are doing.

[@lotterwinner6474]

The Stellaris campaign had many red flags, this is not a surprise. I feel bad for all the people who just bought it due to the name and not understanding how crowd funding works.

[@JasonBrown-st5if]

The most basic Kickstarter I know of was 'Beyond the Gates of Antares' from WAY back (2013). Needless to say it didn't fund despite the talent associated with it.

[@cartoon80s90s]

If you want to see a passion project that presented simply a frame of the game, that has changed quite a bit since it funded, you have to look at "The MCDM RPG" campaign.

[@dougcerulli8826]

I don't have a horse in this race, but you make a lot of good points on both sides. I'm sure Stellaris wasn't cheap, so I would probably be pretty upset after 2 years as well. But I agree, I'm sure his intent is not malicious, but at best, he's just not very good at his job.

[@POWERPRIME01]

Hey what do you think of the SDCC cmon exclusive? Kind of shitty they’re making stuff for games that have it even come out yet.

[@kusheil]

1001 odysseys is a game that was funded on February 28, 2019. lol, still waiting on that one. But at least they talk about progress every few months, so that helps. Unlike Lasting Tales who just goes off grid for months and months and shows ridiculous progress....here's a couple red wax figures, here's a couple pu figures. Hoping this doesn't happen with Lucky Duck's The Dark Quarter. The only one I'm not upset about is Arydia, the guys kid having cancer and going through all the hospitalizations and treatments, and still working on the game, I respect that. They always show progress.

[@mikesmith9501]

"Until Stellaris Infinite Legacy is produced later in 2021, we will continue to look for ways to improve the look and presentation of the game" It seems that they are CONTINUING TO LOOK for ways to improve. 🤣😂😂😂

[@crimsonsun2000]

As a backer of Stellaris, I can say their communication and bullshit is annoying as hell, I also believe the game is coming and the company seems to have the knowledge of business to deliver. I think its fine to be late, but what I've seen of the game looks excellent. I just wish they wouldn't lie about stuff and would communicate better and clearly. No excuse for people offering hate, but Uwe also said in another interview he wished he was still at high school so he could just punch the haters in the face, not exactly doing his part on the anti hate. The company needs someone who is skilled at communication, but they don't and that keeps costs down which I also like, but it clearly means they are having many issues with frustrated backers. Its not a project I'm worried about, I don't feel its a stormsunder for example, the gameplay I've seen looks excellent, the cards I've seen for editing look solid mechanically, they had some issues with consistency in terms of layout but I'm one of the weird people that rules are what I'm worried about the rest is pretty minor. The updating for the video game is stupid, just add expansions or DLC after the game is done, which is the way they initially announced it. They need to draw a line, but honestly I feel this is a excuse, the story lines are what's delaying it, its huge amounts of text and work and they have a tiny team that's splitting its time across multiple projects, this is where the halve truths annoy me. Just be honest, we took on more than we realised, we are a small team, its being worked on, we are financially stable but I'm sorry its going to be delayed.

[@crimsonsun2000]

I'm not a hater, but I do believe the communication is shit, I'm on the discord which is filled with anger, they have a whole channel for it and I'm one of the most optimistic people on there, mainly because they aren't giving me Mythic or Lazy Squire vibes, they had a established business and model and have a whole additional revenue stream outside of crowdfunding, so I'm not stressed but they aren't doing themselves favours. I don't think the 5 people are just working on that, I know Gunther is the head but he's doing stuff for a bunch of projects. So I'm thinking he has 5 full times guys working on the crowd funding projects.

[@checkedout3592]

It's a two fold problem. The backers who sit back and are basically saying - it is acceptable to mislead and in some instances basically lie to their backers and then worse case defend it. "Take as long as you need. I have something else to play" Well yeah I could pull out a piece of paper and play tic tac toe with myself but I didnt pay them hundreds of $$ in the process and when was it guaranteed that an extra one, two, three years guarantee that they game is not a hot mess. I could counter the opposite and state that the longer the project, the more money that is being bleed puts apathy in the team to the point they do not want to work on it. (Two) The companies themselves misleading everyone from the start and have ZERO regrets with making false statements from day one. Does any sane person actually believe that Cmon / AW / Mythic Games etc are not aware that due to their other 100 campaigns being years plus late that perhaps they needed a more realistic timeframe from the start? This is not gonna happen because they know they will lose backers if they give a release timeline of 3 or 4 years when it is sooooo much easier to just deceive from the start especially when you know that you will have a large audience that will just jump up and defend it. Okay mini-rant, but this is why I have become much more selective.

[@LvsSocer]

The FTC rules are toothless. The Gaming Goat (rebranded as Knight&Day Games) has scammed people repeatedly on kickstarters they never backed. No amount of complaints to the FTC has yielded any results.

[@TheKingofAverage]

It doesn't until it does. I'm not concerned about the company but the backer. For the backer, often sending an email concerning this FTC rule and the threat of being reported is enough to get a personal refund. It doesn't always work, but it can be a differentiator between complaining on KS comments and an email with at least some legal backing

[@Gamebent1]

It has now 7.5 months since The Red Joker's last update on Okko Chronicles: Cycle of Earth. Now their website has vanished. Are you going to remain satisfied with their bullshit excuse "we're still looking for production partners" or will you do some actual investigating into the issue and find out wth is going on? No one seems to care that The Red Joker stole our money.

[@JaJDoo]

i wouldnt mind the wait if i actually knew wtf is happening, the promises change constantly and zero actual info is provided

[@Torkeep]

On a scale of Petersen games(?)/Mythic Games to a perfect kickstarter, I would say this was somewhere in the middle. I don't mind the constant development myself, and because they have a business to fund the game, I don't worry about it not being delivered. They communicate regularly (longest gaps have been 3 months), and I am willing to wait. Where they fail (I think), and where many companies fail, is they are not trained speakers (and nor should they need to be). So when they talk, they can talk in a somewhat random way, their thoughts jump around, and you get some unconnected thoughts that end up together in an interview, and because they are together, they sound bad. Eh, I am not going to read that much into it.

[@timf7354]

21:55 You will never release a product when the requirements/rules continuously change. Im understanding him to say he wants to mirror the video game but the video game's rules keep changing. He cant do that! Thats failure written on the wall. Take a snapshot in time of the rules and requirements and deliver that. Stop moving the goal posts... Thats just common sense for project/product management.

[@CheddahSlammer]

The problem here is because he has the IP, it could be that the original IP owners are telling him that he needs to have the board game exact to the newest version of the vid game.

[@AdamJorgensen]

​@@CheddahSlammernope. That's not how licensing works generally. Academy games paid Paradox money so that they could use the IP. Paradox investment in this is primarily to check what Academy are making and okay it in terms of whether it is in line with the IP. It is extremely unlikely Paradox have any kind of requirement like you've suggested. Certainly no other IP boardgame I've heard of has ever claimed this and from a business standpoint it just doesn't line up with how IP licenses work.

[@CheddahSlammer]

@@AdamJorgensen You sure because there are cases were the Board game can't use certain characters because the Ip holders didn't want them too. Armello comes to mind, were they only allowed the First 4 characters in the vid game, and would only allow for more if the board game is successful. From my understanding a licensing agreement involves a Legal agreement between two parties. The IP Holder can place any restrictions on this agreement such as not having them using things from their IP. So they can easily place something were its required for the Board Game to be up to date to the current version of their IP.

[@jokerES2]

There weren't enough details in Stellaris to say that the resulting game will or won't look anything like the end product. There was so much hand-waving and active rules development in the campaign that anyone who didn't think there was years of development left wasn't paying attention. This is no different than how the campaign was run, so why would the company change their tactics?

[@robschmidt6464]

Still waiting for my Camp Grizzly mini set 3 for about 3,650 days LOL

[@quashmonkey]

I would be very concerned about that guy being in charge of the company. It's like he doesn't realize the difference between revenue and profit, until the game is delivered there is zero profit, Yes money is coming in but liabilities are stacking up each and every day fulfillment is delayed.

[@johnarnold2871]

I'm honestly saying this out of a place of concern... The financials of this game seem bad. I can only feel afraid that they will charge $100 for shipping just to make up costs.

[@eriksjogren800]

Thanks for the video. Good talk. Altough 40k is not an example of a game that can be played the same forever. On the contrary it’s getting updated and patched more than any average video game. And try finding players in the community using old rules. Board games though, which is why I changed hobby.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Indeed really it just means if you are playing casually. Any sort of organized system you need to stay updated for. You can even find battlefield reports of the 1st edition being played in 2024 though so it's certainly possible if two people are up for it :D But yes, easier for board games.

[@winghong3]

As the saying goes, "Better is the enemy of good." Sure, brainstorming and improvements are great, but the reality is that at some point, you need to wrap it up and focus on pushing the product out. It really seems like being perpetually in a state of "too many cooks in the kitchen" is really what's harming (at least partially) their development cycle. Not knowing how to control scope creep seems like a major leadership issue with their team.

[@tomvermeulen8003]

This is bullshit, there was no game there at the start. Only bloody renders, no rulebook, no molds, nothing. He is just lying, just glad i cancelled my pledge. Next to that there are hundreds people complaining. Most people have given up.

[@AdamJorgensen]

It blows my mind that they're actually trying to maintain feature parity with a videogame. That is such an incredibly foolish decision. I was hoping this game would deliver and be great and come back for a second campaign but if they're making such poor development decisions it does not bode well...

[@TableTopTroubadour]

What Uwe is not saying is that Paradox Interactive put more demands on the board game as they changed the DLC on the video game. He is stuck between a rock and a hard place. He has a lot of respect for Paradox, and will not say this in his video, but the delay is on Paradox demanding that the board game keep up with the DLC.

[@dustinmaxfield]

For what it is worth, the community has reached out to Paradox directly and there is little oversight happening coming from Paradox. They definitely are not expecting them to make a 1:1 interpretation of the video game. So extra expansions should not be hurting the release of this game. If anything they would be good expansions to make and sell later. The delay is 100% not due to Paradox.

[@TableTopTroubadour]

@@dustinmaxfield According to Uwe, this is a falsehood. The comments on the KS page that assert they have been in contact with Paradox are untrue, and that Paradox has denied this to him. Now, I have no idea who is right and who is lying, and as a backer, I have been frustrated with the delay as well. I know that working with IPs from other companies can be very frustrating compared to developing your own, and I am not sure if this is 100% on Academy Games or 100% PI, or somewhere in between. This is a very well done video, that there is toxicity on both sides of the argument. I will not back another Academy Games project, but I certainly do not know where the delay has come from.

[@TheKingofAverage]

I think normally it's somewhere in the middle anyway and honestly, it kind of doesn't matter. Regardless, backers don't have their game, regardless, comments on both sides go too far, regardless, there's not a lot of acknowledgement of the position of the backers, etc. Sadly we'll probably ever have all the details. We aren't investors and they don't have to give them to us, and won't.

[@nick-rj1bc]

Kickstarter games should have a designed game before kickstarting. Kickstarter has turned into vaporware that might turn into a game MUCH later then advertised. I dont plan on backing ever again except with the 3 or 4 companies that are proven to deliver on time or near on time.

[@Talliesyn]

ofc the vocal people are always the minority, That guy obviously lives in a bubble. Riddiculous... Sure you're 2 years late and people are happy about it.

[@NovaTheKelpie]

Isn't the game Stormsunder quite late as well?

[@davidr3452]

Hello, no Harakiri Blades of Honor final product review?

[@TheKingofAverage]

I've not gotten it yet :(

[@progresspigment9593]

Hi KOA! There is growing concern about Panda Cult Games ability to deliver on the Wander: LaCluck’s Revenge campaign. Wondering if you might be able to cover it for us in a future video?

[@Dragonnox]

Oof I was so close late-backing this all-in, but I didn't pull the trigger because I thought it was a little bit too expensive. Looks like I avoided a headache! Sorry to hear you are having that frustration.

[@findle70]

Just a couple of comments for context. First, met Uwe, talked with him several times, even had some customer service stuff that needed worked out, he was always gracious and responsive. And when he says 5 full time guys, I believe it. The thing lost here is, Academy games is 90+% a historical/wargames board game company, with multiple decades in the biz. They sell tons of those, and that are their primary products. So he can absorb the losses while he works on the games as long as his other games sell well. And the other thing is, since they don't have much history doing non-wargame games, I was pretty shocked when they announced this. It's just a very very very different kind of thing then they have made in the past. And I don't know how much this has influenced the scope creep, or inability to say 'no' to the IP rights holders, etc. I think this experience was not what they thought it would be, for sure, esp. based on how they normally make all of their other games. But I do think they will finish it. It will come out. And it will likely be very good, because their games are known as quality games. I think at the end of the day, this is the story of a company that pushed into areas it was not experienced in, thinking their prior work would translate the same. And it didn't.

[@klaxxon__]

My question is...how is it even possible to make something financially viable if they spend that long working on it? Paying people, real estate, technology, software for 800 more days than the money was originally supposed to cover. I just don't see it, doubt they are actually working on it in any sort of substantial capacity. On top of that, the value of money decreased by like 20% or more depending on where they are...

[@findle70]

Because Academy games has been around a very long time, as primarily a historical/wargame board game company. They sell a ton of those, so they can afford to move the money around to work on this. I'm sure he doesn't like it, but they can do it.

[@bassmeo3937]

For one, don't believe the claim of 5 full-time people. These will be underpaid contractors at best that maybe at most work half-time on the game. If they have 5 full-time people they won't be working full-time on the game, that's obvious. But they won't say that because it will put them in a bad daylight. I also wouldn't believe they did anything meaningful pre-KS. You know what is more likely to have happened? They got the money, and still get money through the PM so they just put a skeleton crew on finishing the game because why would they not. And then probably come to the conclusion they never properly played the game and half their mechanics don't mesh well and have to redo most of it.

[@justanerd1138]

If the game was largely developed during the campaign and they kept updating the game meta what's the chances those changes are well integrated and tested?

[@vlapp0r]

Sounds like Hero Quest Dungeon campaign, constant updates about the digital version of the game that noone in that campaign has backed, it isn't even an option to get in the campaign

[@naivanthrotha5557]

And How much Revenue is 10K? 10K a month after tax and co thats like the Money for 2 People. Wouldn't be proud of making 10K a month as a company

[@Ziplomatic007]

Uwe has a lot of clout in the wargaming community. I am dismayed to see he also has fallen victim to this practice of accepting funding and not producing a product. Academy Games is huge. They have a lot of ongoing projects. Two years is just too long to delay. I understand the pain. I have a game that I struggled two years to perfect. You agonize over making the game just right and sometimes ideas and inspiration work on their own schedules. I am just shocked to see such an experienced designer and publisher have this type of problem. He won the Charles S Roberts award for Conflict of Heroes. To wargamers, that's like the pulitzer prize. If it can happen to him, it can happen to any of us.

[@Mike_James]

ill just add Academy to the list of companies ill never back. not that hard. some on that list made games i like. however, if your attitude towards your most loyal fans isnt full regret for not meeting your own deadlines, then get bent. full stop. crowdfunding is in the toilet atm. its guys like this thats why. i will leave backing games to "real crowdfunders" who are clearly more enlightened than i am. the "a bad game is bad forever" nonsense is a weak excuse for being late. being late doesnt mean itll be good. in fact, many are still meh when they arrive but i had to wait 2yrs longer for it. meet your goals and be competent. how is that not a bare minimum. ffs.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Here's the thing though, I don't think any board game company really knows the date when their game will deliver to backers. I think I have ordered over 200 board games on crowd funding and none of them were on time, some were early and most were late. I had a recent game flat out give us their date as December 2026, said in an update that the game will probably be delivered before that, but with freight being so chaotic I could be that late. So lets say Stellaris gave a more accurate due date of 2024 would people still be upset about the game being late, or would they have not backed knowing it was going to show up that late. Personally I still think people would have backed Stellaris even if they gave a 2025 or later due date because of how popular the Ip is. I think the issue with backers is more about honesty, you said it would release in 2022, its now 2024 so its two years late, so you lied to us about when the game was supposed to be at our doorstep. This lowers trust, as people start to think they will never get their game, because the company lied before. So I think many companies, if they don't know the due date, just push the due date much later. Then when you deliver that game early, you can claim to backers how great you did at delivering early lol.

[@josephcourtright8071]

Stellaris was an ambitious pitch. I am still not sure they are going to follow through. I'm not made that its late. I'm just wondering if the game is going to be any good. The fact that its been delayed makes it more likely that it will be a decent game. I had personal faith in academy games. Any other company I would've walked away.

[@LeeroyPorkins]

Got my Zombicide Black Plague promos last week. Zombicide Invader promos today (Bought them 3rd party)

[@dcrbdh]

I don't have a horse in this race. I am not close to this project, nor do I know anyone who is close to this race. I have not backed this game. BUT, this kind of talk sounds very close to what con men sound like. Talking fast, making claims that don't sound correct under scrutiny, gaslighting. I hope I am wrong.

[@harmarize]

@23:16 I disagree. There have been plenty of campaigns that are REALLY late, yet the developers had plenty of fantastic communication along the way and people were generlaly happy (you are of course going to have some who complain, but mostly dont) Arydia is going to be 2 years late, but no one is bothered because they are releasing monthly updates with clear progression and stauts updated. There are lmits of course - You have stormsunder which is a few years late. They have monthly updates, however their updates are tone deaf with very little progress reports. Just showing more minis or cards and 'we are testing' without any kind of overall progress or timelines.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Oh I agree that communication can go a long way in easing what would otherwise be an issue, and I think some devs trend more toward passion project vs not. It's a nuanced thing for sure. I think having an IP attached introduces more.people that aren't up for a long delay though too

[@FatPob001]

So Uwe has reached out to you and also says to 50 separate backers/haters come to me. How can that be a good use of project time. Why have 51 conversations when you can have ONE. Hey and why not have that ONE conversation where 15k people gave you $3.5m ?

[@bassmeo3937]

Clear example of making campaigns instead of games. I'm always shocked to see how the IP holders don't give a damn or don't have anything in their contracts for things like this. Also, 800 days late now is another year for production/freight/delivery at best lol. So in the end it will be 3.5 years late if everything goes smooth and production starts this year. Good luck with that though - "The game was so far along" straight afterwards "as the video game changed". You are telling me stellaris the video game changed after the Kickstarter was done so drastically that it's a different game? This guy is making up excuses on the spot. "It's not my fault, it's the video games people fault". I don't believe any of it. - 5 guys full-time, after KS, during KS, before KS? I don't believe it even if it was just after KS because that's not how it works unless you want half of those doing nothing half the time. (i.e. artists waiting because of game changes etc)

[@justinsciacca3524]

you are right about people being mad but only a few speak up, specially at work, but this is the internet. If they're mad they're gonna say it. All thou some people on the internet. just don't want to put out the negative vibes.. I've been both. Some camapigns are late and the way they treat their backers, I 'm not upset at all. but some games are late and pretending that being late is ok. They're the ones i'm pissed at. Lazy SQuire games is the absolute worst. I'll never back another game of theirs ever. "they keep putting out "testing" updates. showing pics of minis been done for years. but no time line no nada. just "testing" QA QA QA.. THEY CAN ROTT. uhh just talking abouit it gets my blood boiling. I can't even mention the other games that are 2 years late and I honestly don't care. ohh earth under seige. harikari, All the aeon trespass games. ATO does the best updates in the business. they could be years late, but the story bits we get, the updates on the changes. the smallest fix / change they go into detail about.

[@basgrondhuis2597]

I was waiting for you to showcase Stellaris....and I am *extremely* disappointed in what you did with it. I want a breakdown of broken promises, missed timelines and why he's not showing *any* progress since 2021. How can you all let him get away with it ?! You let him set the narrative with his 50-60 "haters": it's much more than that, because it's become obvious that the emperor has no clothes....there *is* no game. It's all just hot air. That's the story...

[@TheKingofAverage]

Ah sorry to disappoint. I feel this way I could speak on many other creators doing the same thing, vs just this one campaign.

[@RopeBunny.]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'd rather a game is late and fantastic than on time and meh, 100% of the time. 800 days is a bit extensive though.. now if this delivers 3 years late and it's meh? 😅

[@dustinmaxfield]

Many backers, myself included, don't care about the wait. What we care about is the lack of communication. We don't even have a rulebook 3 years out. Even an in-progress rulebook is not yet completed. We don't care that it is taking a long time. We care that there are no milestones being hit and they are not sharing what they are even working on and there is no evidence of that work. We haven't even seen a full session of the game even in playtesting. No one knows what state the game is in... or even how it plays. It isn't so much the fact that it is late. We are getting radio silence, and they are missing deadlines that they themselves have set and promised. We didn't make them set those deadlines... they just never mention them again when they miss it.

[@johnf7755]

I backed and would rather they deliver the game they want to. I don't feel lied to or manipulated. In the context of crowd funding, I believe they're doing what they said they would, with delays. There are far worse outcomes that we have seen from other companies recently. This isn't to say no one has a right to feel otherwise but you made a blanket statement about "people" just wanting it delivered and I'm an exception to that.

[@ThymeKeeper]

Uwe is a great guy. I have seen him on a lot of wargaming media. He's personable and likeable and does a good job promoting his company. This interview is not his finest hour.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Indeed! He reached out and spoke quite kindly. This was just a good example of several talking points :)

[@thomasschafer4187]

I add my perspective. Are you married? Imagine you wife asked something of you, and you don't do it. You don´t even mention that you didn´t do it. What is going to happen? We never saw the promised TTS or the rulebook. We literally do not know what the current status is. We were never really informed that they plan to change the game. Uwe keeps saying there were constant changes, but his son said they were working just on stability. We never saw a complete playthrough. Do you really think they will deliver in August? The delivery is ongoing and moved to the future. Imho he does not get the shit done (he is the boss, he is responsible for getting shit done). Is it ok to wish somebody to hell? Certainly not. Is it understandable that people are getting angry? For sure. Is he a bad person? I don´t think so. He is stuck in his way. I believe, currently he is angry since people did not celebrate his production video. He does not understand that after over 800 days of waiting, people want timelines, and if they are not met, they want to be informed and not be ignored. A production video in 2024 after he told us that since 2022, the minis have been in production? Come on

[@JM32JM32]

I don't have time to watch a 40 minute video, am i going to get the game eventually or no

[@eriksjogren800]

It’s not about having time, it’s about what we choose to spend it on. This is an opinionated video about the state of KS in general with stellaris as an example. He don’t know if you’ll get your game or not. But it’s entertaining, thoughtful and educating. Just like a move, series, books, social media, pods or whatnot people choose to spend time on. Each to their own

[@SamBalducci]

@KoA, you are not a lawyer. That FTC rule is regarding retail sales. Crowdfunding is NOT retail sales. You are funding a concept or idea with ZERO guarantee to get anything including a refund. While there are some creators that do offer refunds, they technically do not have to. Your transaction in Crowdfunding is DIRECTLY to KS or GameFound not the creator. KS or Gamefound are not offering or promising a product. Your example does not apply. With any Crowdfunding you give what you can afford to lose. It is 100% risk on you. The creator has zero risk, and the platform has no liability. As far as late crowdfunded games, the game community has allowed this to happen because being late is waved off. Few ever deliver on time even when they tell you it will take 2 years to deliver. It is not accepted that a game will be late and nobody even cares. Only the community can stop the madness but simply not backing but to many are addicted like crack for the new stuff that this will never happen so this problem discussed on this video will continue to happen if not getting worse especially if the economy takes a turn.

[@Ahkaras1985]

Two words: "Darkest Dungeon". Waiting almost four years, still got nothing, yet. 🥸