We Have Thoughts On the Smiley Face Killers | Podcast Episode 128

[@AlexHaile-t1c]

I was born in La Crosse and after the Army I moved back there to live for over a decade. I think I've posted a comment about this before, but I'll do it again... One of the guys I worked with in La Crosse was a former sheriff of a nearby county. He got a busy work job to keep him active after retirement. I'd have conversations with him about some of the experiences he had on the job... According to him, the FBI is well-aware of a killer operating in (or having operated in) La Crosse, and there's actually a small FBI field office in town... Sounds far-fetched, but there actually is an FBI field office in town (not sure if Field Office is the correct terminology) because we would service their vehicles for recall work, and they kept coming back to us for routine maintenance... Once again, according to him the FBI office was opened when the La Crosse PD requested assistance with a potential serial killer case, and other local law enforcement was invited to a private briefing by the FBI (which is where my friend found out about this) and even though the case ended up going nowhere, the FBI remained in town permanently because they ended up repurposing the office to focus on drug trafficking between Milwaukee, Chicago, and the Twin Cities. But they still look into reports of unusual deaths.

[@jennytr5056]

I like having the history section right in the video. I'm more likely to listen to it if I don't have to go find another video later. And I think it adds a lot of texture to the story.

[@EMurph42]

There’s been a shortage (Adderall which I need for MS fatigue) for a couple years now. It makes no sense to me that they know the demand & can’t make adjustments within 29 months.

[@thatgoblin5739]

The one conspiracy theory I whole heartedly believe is that they did the shortage on purpose. When it was in full swing in Missouri, I ended up paying almost 200 bucks for a months supply when I would usually pay 70. Because they only had extended release and I usually take the 2x a day method. I also didn't have insurance at the time, so it was out of pocket and I had a meltdown after getting them because I was spacing them to make sure I could have at least a little now and then to keep me going.

[@azslinger4639]

I wasn't able to participate in the poll. But I appreciate the history you include. It sets it apart from other streams.

[@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD]

1:26:00 The most remarkable thing about the Johnny Gosh case is how thoroughly it broke his mother's mind, how insane she became, and how many people enabled her obvious delusions. It is a very sad case.

[@AnnahsWorldOfRandome]

1:23:33 fun fact! With a twin that absorbs the other in the womb some times they won’t fully absorb it! Leading to a tumor that can contain all sorts of things! Hair, teeth, random malformed organs ect… 🙃

[@MacCoalieCoalson]

I think the Smiley Face Killer guys fell into the same trap that Paulides did with 411, in that they cast too wide a net, and kept convoluting things in such a way that it harms the credibility of their originally quite substantial point. If they stuck with JUST the Lacrosse cases (maybe also mentioning the Pittsburgh cases as a different thing) I feel like it would come off as a lot more plausible, especially considering just how many things are the same and very suspicious about the Lacrosse cases, but when they start throwing in other cases that are clear outliers it really makes them seem less reliable, especially when they start jumping to less plausible conclusions (like some underground community of serial killers, which although certainly possible and incredibly scary, is significantly less likely than a singular lone serial killer, or, if we include the Pittsburgh cases, 2 independent serial killers)

[@TheLoreLodge]

Very much agree on this

[@drewfologist2755]

@@TheLoreLodge They had no choice other than to spread their net as wide as possible. The reason is that it's impossible for the authors to walk back from this statement: "Everything that we originally mentioned in the press conference (April 28, 2008) with respect to these deaths is as true today as it was then. These young men were drugged, abducted, held for a period of time, murdered, and then placed into the water. This is still being done by an organized group of individuals. This is a form of domestic terrorism that is on the rise both here in the United States, and also in Canada as well as Europe. It has become more evident and grown in violence in the United States during the past three years. We believe that members of this movement will be associated with the next major domestic terror attack on our nation" (Gannon & Gilbertson, 2014, pg. 388).

[@ryankrelic971]

Since you're doing lore lodge drinks I'll repitch my suggestions. Windigo whiskey:Tastes like an old freind. And a strong mixed drink called The mothman: last seen moments before disaster.

[@gaberegan5465]

In regards to the history segments, I would say it depends on the context of the video. If it's a video related to folklore, a cryptid or is applicable to the context absolutely keep it in. However in regards to missing person or similar topics a trimmed version is probably more appropriate. (I like the history segments and would love if you guys made compilations of them on History Hut)

[@GwydionFrost]

I concur. If it has relevancy/ directly ties to the case, keep it. Otherwise, summary, just for context purposes.

[@blaznskais2048]

I agree. I didn’t think the history segments for the smiley face cases were appropriate as it had nothing to do with the case. I quick summary on the smiley case theory for first time viewers would have been more appropriate.

[@jamesknapp64]

yeah if they're doing Bigfoot, missing 411 vidoes; history is a must. BUT the "smiley face killer" vidoes, these are occurring in a modern setting in urban areas, no need for history.

[@Avacadoloco]

I love how focused Mattis is in this episode. I can hear him talk all day when hes this focused.

[@LizaJane101]

I agree I like focused coversations

[@ace.l.w]

57:00 this discussion is absolutely fascinating to me, and for anyone going through the comments and seeing this one, it is worth noting that I have seen someone get dangerously drunk (like, passing out while vomiting) on just 3 or 4 drinks. (Also, just because you’re below the legal limit does NOT mean that you can safely drive, in case this isn’t common sense enough)

[@DopamineFarmerr]

I am subscribed to the patreon at senior ranger and absolutely love your history segments, longer the better, I usually have a lot of work to do and appreciate the longform content in general. Love you guys and thanks!

[@AmberRae9559]

I also like having the history segment in the stories... It's easy to skip if you're not interested. Also, if you want to make the history part in the story longer, I'm more than ok with that. Keep the "Lore" in The Lore Lodge!!

[@vampirefrompluto9788]

​​I think you should at least cross post the history segments to History Hut so that channel has a chance at getting monetized.

[@Nana__________________________]

Careful of copyright tho….they will look at it as two separate channels on the backend even tho the content is all produced by the same team

[@BlockyNinjaVidz]

@@Nana__________________________ Thats pretty easy to work around though

[@Nana__________________________]

@@BlockyNinjaVidz it is??! Lmk how lol cuz I have this issue with my clients

[@TheLoreLodge]

@@Nana__________________________ since both channels are under our account, we should be in the clear on that.

[@Nana__________________________]

@@TheLoreLodge perfect 🔥🔥🔥

[@deedeeblackwater8354]

Kinda want "Thomas Aquinas was not an authority on the Bible" incorporated into a flat earth design on a sticker 😆

[@FlorianMark]

On the GHB: You don't forget the things you do will on it. This happens only if the dose is high enough to make you black out. It is a stimulus when low dosed. That's why it is also called liquid ecstacy

[@thekrauserlols4611]

I can confirm that your volume is low here for some reason. This Laptop has really good speakers and its at 100% on youtube and the Laptop's volume. I tried on my phone and my work laptop and its the same thing, have to put the volume way higher than normal.

[@asmrkat1491]

Yes I've noticed this with them, although this seems to be pretty common for podcasts Usually I like listening while I'm making dinner or driving to work, and at max volume any ambient noise drowns them out 😢

[@wmpx34]

It's quite strange, not sure what's going on. If you right-click the video and go to "Stats for nerds," under the part that says Volume/Normalized...on my system at least, there is no decibel number in parentheses after the percentages there. Which means that KZbin measured it right at the loudness it wants videos at (around minus 14 LUFS). In other words, according to that statistic, the loudness is perfect -- not too loud or too quiet. However, listening to it, it does sound very low even at max volume. So I don't think that statistic is displaying properly here for some reason. I'd be curious to know why

[@hanslanda8303]

@@wmpx34wow you’re so intuitive…it’s kinda hot

[@virginiaelizabeth4577]

I agree, I watch videos on KZbin everyday all day lol & their volume is low.

[@thekrauserlols4611]

@@wmpx34 They are usually lower than most videos i watch but this stream in particular is much lower than normal. Maybe thats why Stat wise it seems normal, because they are usually pretty low volume.

[@NormalPersonCommenting]

Never forget the universal invocations of vicious mockery: basically anything said by the French to Arthur and his Knights.

[@FaerieFlossPrince]

my bard was a five-year-old felis (so basically a 10 year old child) so i got to dig deep into playground insults which was honestly SUPER fun :')

[@mercycunningham2813]

I've want to point out I've seen smiley face graffiti in Berlin, rural Germany, London, at an Italian autostrada restsstop and so on. They're all over Europe. It's just an universal very easy thing to spray at a surface. If they made people aware of whats happening - good. But they are no mystery by themselves.

[@quinbatcheller5805]

GHB is a depressant, it works on the GABA receptors in a similar fashion to alcohol and benzos (this is from memory so look into it for yourself, but I think this is correct). The "knock out" dose is only a little over the recreational dose so if a person is using it and takes a little too much, or redoses too soon they can become unconscious or even overdose very easily. It's an enjoyable high if used carefully in a safe setting, but I would consider it a "high level" drug definitely not for beginners, because a lot of safety awareness is required. Also it needs to be safe guarded from falling into the hands of predators for obvious reasons, making it a very controversial drug with a bad reputation.

[@heatherrose4749]

I enjoy the history segmants at the start of the videos. Because I watch your content while I'm working a full 8 hour day, the longer the video the better!

[@heatherrose4749]

Plus, if you're not interested, you can just skip past it.Maybe you can add a different border or background so it's easier to see if you're sliding forward on the video?

[@blaznskais2048]

I have taken ADD meds since I was 14 and the 2 years I was off it was a struggle so I feel Aiden on that that the meds are a blessing and a curse.

[@elizabethhughes6312]

Hey! Ive been lurking for a while and love your content! I have access to a lot of journals thanks to being a pre-med science student with a private university so I thought id take a quick look into GHB testing. I don't know if you've seen this article, but there was study published by Oxford University press and done by Brailsford et al that is titled "Increases in Serum Growth Hormone Concentrations Associated with GHB Administration". To sum it up, their study basically concluded that even small doses of GHB substantially increases growth Hormone Concentrations. Just thought I'd mention because it might be possible to check for growth Hormone levels even if the GHB levels are below threshold for the toxicology tests. Don't know if that helps at all but I just found that article interesting and thought I would share.

[@KairiPrime]

The thing is, GHB is produced naturally in the body, but tests have not been done to figure out what levels of GHB are normal human baseline and what are the levels that might indicate that someone has been drugged,

[@elizabethhughes6312]

@KairiPrime oh yeah, I totally understand. My point was just to say maybe they can find another marker of a hormone or chemical in our body that also rises specifically when the drug raises those rates higher. Since we have our baselines for most everything else, maybe they would be able to figure out more of a baseline for it from the other ones and also possibly be able to test if someone has been drugged depending on their other levels if it were to affect anything else.

[@KairiPrime]

@@elizabethhughes6312 Yeah that is totally possible, we just need some actual studies on these things to figure out what those baselines are and I'm not sure if these studies are even being done, which is the whole problem.

[@CasualDandyAkaSqwrty]

You guys are the Lore Lodge, I want the historical context every time. That's your schtick, imo :)

[@lindasue8719]

⬆️ This.

[@gdprince748]

@3:52

[@candidcadaver]

Thank

[@sarad2376]

It was quite quiet, sound-wise, but I'll listened in its entirety. Great show, as always! I truly enjoy your episodes

[@am74343]

I just noticed something that just hit me about many of these cases... Joshua Szostak was a 21-year-old college student who disappeared in 2007 in Albany, NY after a night drinking, and his body was found a few months later in the Hudson River. His body was found a few miles from a cement plant. The body of Dakota James was found in the river in Pittsburgh near a cement plant. Some of the Lacrosse, Wisconsin deaths were later found in the river near a cement plant. And Riley Strain's body was found in the Cumberland River in Nashville near a cement plant. Something just made me look at the map of these places and it's an uncanny coincidence that many of these guys' dead bodies would be found within a few miles of a cement plant. Could one of the workers be responsible for a number of these killings? Somebody out there should investigate this, because to me it's obvious there's gotta be a tie-in with those locations. Anybody out there have a thought on this? Any Law Enforcement people out there reading this wanna comment?

[@Imm0rtalcookie]

Thats either a hell of a coincidence or a pattern. Im neither qualified nor do I have any knowledge on the matter, but it deffo is a curiosity for someone to look into!

[@lindasue8719]

WOW!!👍🏼

[@drewroosevelt6506]

The smiley face part is a red herring. It’s possible it’s even added to make this whole thing sound more unbelievable. Without that this whole MO seems totally plausible. “How to get away with murder” and suddenly multiple networks have jumped on this MO? Crazier things have happened, that’s for sure. Edit: On Brian Shaffer. He wants to disappear? Go home and collect your stuff and then sneak out your front door when home alone. Why not do that? People need their stuff. Doesn’t make sense. Could he be a victim (of SFK) that has been held somewhere? Could the cell (or whatever) that took him have a slightly different MO? Maybe in this one case, or multiple - who knows, he was kept and later buried because he was clearly killed? Lots of possibilities here. Not sure why he would run from his poor father leaving him with multiple losses. Too absurd.

[@paulsansonetti7410]

Watch William Ramsey's SFK documentary then come back and try and peddle that uninformed BS

[@Waterbottlebandit831]

53:16 my brother chugged a bottle of Jack when he was 20, lol he ended up being hospitalized and tried to fight some cops 😂😂

[@merlynneparker4800]

Not to throw my people under the bus or to cause any controversy but I'm wondering if anyone has looked into the river boats as a possible connection. I didn't work boats during the Lacrosse time frame, but I have since then. We don't go that far north when the river is frozen but we have gone when it was cold enough to snow. Our boat regularly cruised the Mississippi, Tennessee, Ohio, and the Cumberland. Probably it means nothing but it struck me how many of those cities I visited while working on the boat. Just a thought.

[@ryanbrown4053]

Hmm interesting point. Worth looking into for sure.

[@am74343]

Criteria: * Smiley face found near dead body * College-aged males, athletic physique, aged 19-30. * Drowned mysteriously after a night of drinking alcohol * Left a party or bar alone * Types of injuries and state of decomposition are inconsistent with drowning * Number of days/weeks in water before body being found is inconsistent with body decay * GHB drug found in toxicology report in many cases * Deaths seem to happen in clusters near rivers and lakes where many downtown bars are located

[@detectivewiggles]

While i agree that any smiley face graffiti related to these cases is probably just a coincidence, I also think you're overestimating how common smiley face graffiti is. I've lived in multiple cities and i've certainly seen a few, but they're far less common than text-based tags

[@detectivewiggles]

"GHB has a biphasic effect on dopamine. Lower doses stimulate dopamine release by binding GHB receptors. Higher doses initially inhibit dopamine release via agonist effects on GABA-B receptors, leading to neuro-inhibition and central nervous system (CNS) depression, but after that increase dopamine release via the GHB receptor." So both stimulant and sedative depending on dose

[@virginiaelizabeth4577]

oh that's very interesting! i've stupidly done certain 'drvgs' I thought were 'downers' but had 'upper' effects, vice versa. maybe this is why... @@detectivewiggles

[@AhranMaoDante]

With Riley, the "good deed/altercation" could have simply been him offering to pay the tab of someone he was hoping to hit it off with, and them being offended by it, viewing the offer as sexist or Riley being a creep.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Most likely the creep option. Any guy you don't know can seem creepy when he's drunk and hitting on you, and thanks to true crime, a lot of girls have learned to be on high alert.

[@MeretSeger]

Maybe he saw someone being drugged too

[@patriot9487]

I would not be surprised if it came off as sexist to them, given the attitude of a lot of chicks nowadays.

[@markthompson2079]

Floaters like burn victims is a smell you will never ever forget. Thank heavens for Vicks. A warm water victim is totally different from a cold water victim. The cold keeps the gases that forms in the gut down to nothing. That's why in areas of cold water they tell you to wear a life vest so they can have a body to bury. Talk to those that fish in cold water to learn more. Also in colder water you have things eating on the body. Of course fresh vs salt makes a ton of difference. Have anyone looked at cell towers? Their are a lot of things that aren't being said or shared. Also it would show who they had been talking to.

[@jimsil1315]

I have a vintage Pioneer rack system, that I use for my streaming/KZbin viewing; with a 300W Tuner. It is ANYTHING but "just crappy speakers". The volume to comfortably watch/hear this video is almost double the volume I normally have it set on, for my viewing pleasure on any of the streaming services. I beleive it maybe isn't a volume issue, but moreso modulation. A deeper, low voice isn't going to translate via video; not nearly as well as a normal, or more moderate voice. IE: low bass voice vs tenor voice vs high soprano voice.

[@marandadavis9412]

I have ADHD and was diagnosed as an adult. I take Strattera (which is one of the non-stimulant medications), and after a few days noticed that my brain could actually be quiet. Then my RE wanted me to come off it during treatment, I tried it for two awful months, and we had to have the discussion of "i can either keep up with all of my fertility medications, appointments, and instructions, or I can come off the ADHD meds. I cannot do both at the same time". 😅

[@Nitehawke]

Having experienced a memory block from about the age of 5 until age 14 when it crashed of it's own accord (and apropos of nothing, I might add, which I can tell you is a disconcerting experience to say the least), I question the efficacy of memories retrieved from behind such a block by means of hypnosis. I have reasons for this but nothing I'm willing to go into publicly but I would be very wary of details retrieved in such a manner. This assumes, of course, that drug induced amnesia mimics a memory block created organically, for lack of a better term.

[@paulsansonetti7410]

46:30 the idea the victims were particularly " elite " is mostly cope that Gannon and Duarte told grieving parents

[@shannonchristie-wickham8453]

Wanted to add that i love the history segments

[@ToxinWolffe]

I've always wondered about the motive behind these killings. Every murder is committed because someone wants something, whether that's pleasure or security.

[@DjDeja]

Revenge would be my best guess

[@TheLoreLodge]

Serial killers can be a bit more eccentric when it comes to motives

[@donkeypits]

I got drugged by one of the bars on that street a few years ago. I was on Adderall at the time and I think that's the only reason I didn't pass out. But I did have a crazy night. No way in hell am I ever going back

[@ellbee5139]

Y'all, I didn't think I could like the Lore Lodge more, but the Mojo Dojo Casa Lodge sign is just the thing to push me over into adoring the Lodge and its Lads that much more. I am delighted.

[@ellbee5139]

Im definitely late to noticing since I usually listen, not watch. 😂 But still. It's a great touch, imo.

[@rytier07]

Woodlyn Pennsylvania. That’s where “allegedly” there was a victim of the smiley face killer/killers. It was behind a bar/nightclub near Widener university named bootleggers. The body was found in Ridley creek and the smiley face was spray painted on the back of the building. Have you covered Shane Montgomery from West Chester University? That was another very odd, very similar, case. Very sad and disturbing

[@MummyBrown]

18:43 Men and women have different effects with GHB. I have friends that frequent strip clubs and the strippers use to drug guys drinks to get better tips. The effect on the men looked like big time drunkenness. Women tend to pass out. Now I’m sure dosage plays a part in it, body type/ size etc, but generally these are the general after effects. You also tend to feel TERRIBLE for a few days after the fact. It’s like a days long extreme hangover well after it would be considered a normal hangover.

[@sjfancyq9103]

Yes! Do the Johnny Gosch case! It’s such a rabbit hole!

[@gamerev1018]

1:37:40 I think a middle path for this would be better, when doing a first video in a location I feel it should be in the vid. For video's after that it should be trimmed if nothing new would be added or might help explain something. Then there should be a larger vid on the other channel primarily made up of what was in the first video as well as other tidbits that are nice to know but not needed.

[@lindasue8719]

The history portion. Fast forward has been available at least 50 years. Have people not figured it out YET??🙄 I love the history portion, and I am happy to see you continue with a significant section of the videos devoted to that.

[@jorahtheexplorer3262]

I wonder if folks think it's a singular aerial killer because "Red John" in the Mentalist used the smiley face as his calling card.

[@creekcreeperrc7972]

ADD ADHD medication is a absolute pain to get... Would really help if a ton of people weren't taking it without needing it

[@runswithtrees6173]

Yeah well it can absolutely destroy peoples brains if taken improperly so it shouldn’t be given away like candy. People should not be taking this drug. Speaking from experience.

[@TheLoreLodge]

As someone who needs it I am begging

[@housemane565]

buy meth instead if you take it orally its almost identical

[@outbacksteakhouseofficial]

@@TheLoreLodgeYou should try to get a booster dose when you meeting with the psych, it’s a lifesaver. I’m on concerta and there’s always a shortage around feb to April every year. A 10mg booster is very helpful when I’m up late studying but it also keeps me from having to go cold turkey when a shortage happens. I had to take 7 and a half boosters throughout the day until I could get my regular prescription but it’s better than nothing! 😅

[@00SullySullivan00]

​@TheLoreLodge damnnnn you are addicted for sure 😂

[@mlcoffey2]

This absolutely fascinates me and I love how much research you have put into it. I agree that Brian Shaffer disappeared by his own planning. I also thought that the Smiley Face Killers were mostly female. Going online and finding each other, women who had been abused by a type of young man. Could have also had men who had female relatives abused by this type of young man. Or I'm reading too many true crime stories. Lol

[@Grimkeeper17]

Mr smiley was often slang for certain drugs and / or a general colloquialism for a drug dealer around where i am in Wisconsin. Not relevant, but it could be tongue and cheek when people say smiley face killer got people. Could just be peoples own vices getting the better of themselves.

[@JonnyDisorder]

You are very right about the 2005 time and being gay. I came out right about then. It was hard to be gay unless you lived in California and NYC and even then it was hard. 20 years later I people don't get why I "act" straight. I was raised to be scared if I acted any way but. I felt so bad for my more fem friends because they all had it awful. I grew up in the south. Yeah, you hid it if you could.

[@dbt5224]

@peacedog87 I grew up in a small southern town. I'm not certain they have made it to the 80's there yet.

[@TheLoreLodge]

@peacedog87 definitely depended a bit where you were. Miami and LA? Probably fine. Columbus, Ohio? Ehhhhhhh

[@botanicalraven7150]

I’ve driven around in the southern rural area of Minnesota Brandon went missing in, I can’t say I passed specifically through Marshall but in that general area quite a lot in my early adulthood, and as of 2020 it is very easy to get lost back there, even sober.

[@JimMilton-ej6zi]

You bringing up "that's not why the police is holding this tape back" reminds me of something. There were so many cold cases where something wasn't solved purely because the evidence wasn't looked at properly by authorities, and they usually only get solved decades later when a new person decides to review old cold case stuff, that's usually when they stumble upon the piece of evidence that ties it back together. I remember one was specifically solved because a single suspect wasn't properly looked over and that suspect was the one that did it. I feel like at some point when a case goes cold, all information found should be publicly viewable by anyone for them to investigate, because at some point the police become ineffective and private investigators become better

[@jettagriffin]

Greatful Dead, also they make shroom chocolate bars now so edibles could be shroom trip.

[@squitten.]

I’m only 20 minutes in but my brain has been on a loop for weeks thinking about this topic tbh so here is my thoughts because I can’t keep them in my head any longer. We need to drop the smiley faces. They’re too inconsistent to be a real clue and even if they are, for the sake of argument, a calling card of sorts that doesn’t get us any closer to answers. I believe Kevin and the others have determined that one of *twelve* different symbols are all calling cards of this murder organization. That is too many and it doesn’t help us even if it’s true. All it really does is muddy the waters and exclude potential victims while lumping in unrelated cases because they just happen to have one of the twelve most common graffiti symbols somewhere with in a mile of the body. I fully believe that there is some kind of organization, formal or informal, underground or whatever, killing young men across the country and making it look like accidental drownings. 100% on board with that. They lose me when they start talking about the smiley faces. I genuinely think if that wasn’t on the criteria for marking a case as related most people would take this more seriously. But because they’ve chosen to latch onto that and give it a stupid name, very little serious investigation is being done and more people are going to die because of it. I also put ZERO stock into the victim that had a smiley face put on his grave stone. Was his case related? Maybe. Is the smiley face part of it? No. I feel like that’s pretty obviously some teenagers with no respect for the dead and a macabre sense of humor playing what they think is a funny joke. Anyway. End rant.

[@kabuki7038]

With Riley, if he was drunk enough and saw a gap in the fence, he could've easily have tried taking a piss, stumbled and rolled down the hill. I feel that would explain everything in his case.

[@markbalentine-w6d]

but you realize there an embankment and a cliff going down to the river its not just rolled down a few iches its higher then that its likely someone dragged him into the river.

[@gabrielparanormalchildhood7559]

But the medical examiner never mentioned bruising that would happen from a large rough fall of that nature

[@sarahgracemorton]

why would he take off his shoes, belt and pants for that? i just dont see the reason for that

[@kabuki7038]

@@gabrielparanormalchildhood7559 Why does it have to be a rough fall? Maybe you've never seen someone drunkenly stumble, but they can stay remarkably unharmed through insane bullshit. Plus, if he didn't have any bruising at all, I feel that backs up my argument given we saw the dude completely eat shit while jogging earlier

[@kabuki7038]

@@sarahgracemorton You're drunk, your pants are around your ankles, and you've just tumbled into the water. You have this instinctual thing telling you that your boots are going to weigh you down. Now tell me what your next move is.

[@bananashoplifter3440]

Making me miss 2007 more and more lol Keep up the great work though guys, vids and streams

[@xandercrews4729]

Perry Caravello is the Smiley Face Killer. He killed poor little Nathaniel and Eric in Big Bear. He also strangled Linda Johnson’s cats.

[@Thee.angrypanda]

Keep the History segments! They're fascinating!

[@willkeen7669]

My first graffiti tag was an X eyed smiley face so it’s gotta be pretty common

[@00SullySullivan00]

"Great therapist, just hard to get drugs from the guy"

[@IOSARBX]

The Lore Lodge, Subscribed because your videos are so much fun!

[@mayav927]

Has anyone looked into the theory of revenge? Like did these guys that seem to have a connection, have any SA allegations against them?

[@1n5tant_Ar50n]

"I'm weirdly organized today; it's Adderall." 😂😂😂

[@sageletrox]

At 1:11 regarding not releasing security camera footage: If these camera are showing the back of jail they likely aren't releasing the footage because it would potentially show the blind spots of a jail surveillance system, thus compromising security. I think it's entirely possible that footage doesn't show anything that is noteworthy enough that would justify compromising a jails security. That would also explain why the family agrees that the release of that footage isn't necessary.

[@paulsansonetti7410]

18:30 nobody would ever choose a ubiquitous symbol so as to give the feds plausible deniability,to make it more unlikely to get caught

[@whodiiini2621]

THE SEANANNERS REFERENCE SENT ME 🤣🤣🤣🙌🙌🙌

[@steveculbert4039]

Aidan's right about the clothing. Maybe the victim was stripped FOR his belongings.

[@JryCofee]

Agree with female element. I don't think it's a group of serial killers but something more akin to a cult. The psychology of of a large group of serial killers.

[@squitten.]

Agreed on both counts.

[@paulsansonetti7410]

Many were gay, pretty sure honey pots wouldn't work But thanks for playing

[@paulsansonetti7410]

16:30 Signs of torture Incredibly refined demographic Not nearly enough decomp typically Often bodies float that shouldn't based on water temps GHB on toxicology

[@naomiseraphina9718]

Hello, Lore Lodge lads. I enjoy the content you create and I wish you much further success. Nothing I wish to add by way of observation is in any way intended as criticism of your work, however, I am genuinely hopeful that your research may possibly lead to the apprehension of whomever is behind the terrible string of deaths that is currently being referred to as "victims of the smiley-face killers." In the spirit of "two heads are better than one" I want to contribute the following thoughts: Firstly, the most important thing to wrap your head around when trying to solve a homicide is to fathom the motive of the killer or killers. Ask yourselves: WHAT is the killer (or killers) gaining from taking these lives? Why these young men? If you pay any attention to criminal history, you will soon realize that the motives for murder are normally a very short list. These killings clearly fall outside of most normal motives. The thing being taken from these young men is their LIVES. How does that benefit anybody? It doesn't appear to be sexual (I don't think.) It doesn't appear to have anything to do with personal vendettas or rage. These young men were almost certainly strangers to their killers. You can put the idea of a "group of women online, killing these men as a sort of proxy" completely to one side. A tiny fraction of murders are committed by women, and unless we are living in an Agatha Christie novel, there is almost no chance that some rogue gang of females is going around killing young men out of some silly misplaced aggression complex. It's absurd to think otherwise. These killings are carefully planned and surgically executed. They are being done by professionals, I would bet the farm on it! These professionals must therefore be working for somebody with enough money and power to both motivate them and to guarantee some sort of immunity. In the history of serial killers, and this is obviously a series of killings, the perpetrators are almost always men, and they are almost always satisfying some kind of misplaced urge of lust or of lust for power. Since nobody could be singly responsible for all these deaths we can safely assume that whomever is behind them is using hired muscle to carry them out, as aforementioned. What we must ask ourselves, is WHAT in God's name is the point of the whole spree? My guess, as I may have mentioned before, is that there is some kind of medical quackery going on. I think that somewhere there is a quack doctor or possibly even a very clever team of extremely unethical people with medical training who have actually stumbled onto a life-sustaining or life-enriching medical procedure that involves taking something (blood? energy? vitality? SOMETHING) from these young men, and they are selling this "treatment" to wealthy older men who wish to extend their lives on Earth. Perhaps as I mentioned, the doctor(s) is/are quacks, and the whole thing is a scam to bilk money out of rich old villains desperate to stay young, or possibly there really is something to it. I don't know, and I really don't want to know, but I do want the killings to stop and the guilty to be punished. The conditions of the places where the bodies are found is irrelevant. The smiley-face graffiti is irrelevant. If you were a crew of mercenary hit-men abducting young healthy men to be killed by some quack bastard, you would do your best to make the deaths look accidental. Hence the rivers. If you were aware that a pattern had been spotted, you would of course mix up your methods, which is why I doubt we'll see any more victims in bodies of water. Don't look for water, don't look for smiley faces, and for god's sake, don't look at the collegiate status of the victims. Whatever is going on has something to do with the physiology of the victims. That's it for now. That's my two cents. I really hope that this mystery is solved and that it is solved soon. Keep on digging! All the best, --Naomi

[@chanceschofield9324]

While most serial killers have some kind of motive, "some [people] just want to watch the world burn." These will be the hardest cases to piece together, as there is no discernable motive to give clues. There is no reason why, nothing to gain, nor any discernable cause. Or perhaps the reasoning is something so foreign to a normal person that the motive is incomprehensible to most of us. One thing I think we can say for (almost) certain is that these aren't crimes of passion. In which case, normal motives/reasoning will be of little help.

[@DreadnoughtFiend]

Alright. Professionals possibly, unrelated mist definitely, quack doctor..... nooo sadly we have young blood transfusions working already so rich folks can just go that route, save legal, and way, way more repeatable. Now again these seem to be just random select target, that matches a physical nature. You aren't wrong there. My theory is more likely some sort of dark hate towards that particular kind of man, the why can be different, miss placed hatred, possibly feminist related? As in the goofy Velma show leave of cringe. But yeah I'm more 100% with them on its a woman involved. And purposefully underestimating women as criminals simply makes it easier for the ones doing it to get away.

[@tankgirl6107]

Interesting perspective, I like your theories. Although I'm not convinced these murders are not related to trafficking or other sex crimes. The way the general public, media, and law enforcement seem dismissive toward the issue of sexual abuse of men and boys makes me wonder if any of the bodies were examined for signs of r*pe as many are not even tested for incapacitating drugs.

[@kruxxme5372]

I think that it is possible that there is some kind of occult / ritual / alchemic aspect to some of these. 'The killing of the little king', bathing in their 'tincture' etc.

[@laurahenriksen19]

Honestly I've said this a number of times... Lots of lives you guys are quieter. Not usually the other videos. Its been that way for ages x

[@TheLoreLodge]

We honestly can’t figure out why. On our end, we can’t make things any louder without peaking. Has to be a KZbin thing.

[@cookiepie7854]

​@@TheLoreLodgeextra weird cause for me the volume is fine. It can't just be all their speakers but it's not an issue with you either. Just strange

[@laurahenriksen19]

​@@TheLoreLodge most probably. I have tried altering stuff on my end but I can't go beyond my highest volume 🙃

[@laurahenriksen19]

​@@cookiepie7854legit haha 😄

[@CJGatsby]

i really appreciate your kind and delicate way of discussing sexual assault and queer people!

[@conyeezy8027]

Everyone i know thats done ghb has told me they felt paralyzed really stupid and black out. Depressants can have stimulant qualities heroin could have you flying around your job in a good mood,talkative and confident. But if you were to sit somewhere and relax you would be folded up nodding out. Source- personal experience years ago (100% sober now days)

[@BornAHawkEye]

I have been clean from prescriptions for 4 years God bless

[@Memyselfneye46]

Keep the history segment! But it sounds like you already decided Lol Watched the video after the livestream. For some of the regions that are addressed the history/back story is needed to understand.

[@alphooey]

How often do people actually raise concern over moderately sober person helping a sloppy drunk person out of a venue? You’d hope someone would but unless the person appears to be resisting I suspect no one would intervene

[@virginiaelizabeth4577]

I didn't realize the Smiley Face Killer 'theory' was a 'conspiracy theory'...? i must be missing more than i thought. i rly thought it was a good theory that makes sense, MINUS the smiley faces (lol) & not including Brain Schaefer & Brandon Swanson. (i just realized their names are so similar)

[@Joanne-i7q]

History= not something I need . I had more than enough of it in NY school system. What I prefer is the host going on location, visuals, films that share the mood of the case location . My boss talks too much; At End of day, I need something to look at; I've already listened to clients and bosses all day.. and music would help too. Thanks for all the info you share with us.

[@mjllygraves3203]

Thanks for getting me part way through the storm

[@ChelseaAllen420]

I came out in 2007 and I’ll tell you what it was definitely not easy doing so in the south was it easier versus having had to do it in the 80s yeah but it was definitely not easy

[@marysupernova7780]

Ah, I remember the first day my ADHD was treated after 24 yrs of going undetected... Only after being misdiagnosed with a slew of things that explained some of the symptoms I could feel and pinpoint myself, but also assumed a lot of things that didn't fit with my personal traits / experiences, or the perceptions / experiences of the people in my life lol. Which was of course treated with exponentially more medications and combinations of them, thus ruining my life by making me seem / feel absolutely insane for almost 4 years, killing most of my opportunities in life that are only doable in the early adult phase of life & without a pile of labels attached to your identity, and hospitalizing me in psych wards over and over again lo Glad my brain can now function reasonably enough to deal with the outcomes of all that bullshytt

[@deozero1925]

Hey guys, the audio is super quiet on this video, especially on mobile speakers. I dunno if that's a KZbin issue or a sound mixing issue.

[@bjh7924]

The 'non-judging, PC-friendly, voice-recognising gaydar' section creased me up 😄 + "& I'm not saying everyone in Miami is gay..." Just brilliant. Love you guys 😊 (not like that) 🤜❤🤛 *macho fist-bump*

[@AW-gg3yw]

Most likely answer is that the killer (potentially killers) is a female campus recruiter for either a financial services, consulting company, or law firm. This would explain almost every aspect of the killings. The victims are almost all college students, the victims (white , popular, academically gifted, often athletes, usually middle class males) are the stereotypical intern candidate. Campus recruiters travel a lot visiting many different schools, but are confined to a certain region e.g. the Midwest. They tend to be very attractive so could easily tempt the victims into meeting them, and will likely exchange contact details as part of the recruiting process. Many recruiters will have a newer employee shadow them for some time. This would be an adequate amount of time to build enough trust between the two for the original killer to bring her trainee into the killings (obviously this doesn't happen with every new employee, but it could likely happen with one given enough time).

[@cadumbra]

The ending awooo was great. Love the streams!

[@jamesdaviesanswers8751]

New set up looks great gentlemen

[@ericthreeman]

Both of you gentlemen have excellent hair. God bless+chap gang

[@gretchenallen6116]

You mention missing 411 in the beginning of this…. David Paulides wrote a whole missing 411 book on this exact subject… it’s called Missing 411 : A Sobering Coincidence. After following missing 411 cases for a few years now, I’m pretty certain Smiley Face and Paulides’ book are the same phenomenon, as far as the circumstances, the strangeness, how the bodies are found, the GHB levels, coroners not listing a real manner of death….etc.

[@chillkidalso5371]

We also would have accepted "stereo spookers," "deadphones" or "fearbuds."

[@vampirefrompluto9788]

Be sure to drink your Biblically accurate milk from the Biblically accurate moosiah!

[@1Adamrpg]

I think the only problem with the history segments is their actual relation to the topic at hand. I almost feel like if you did a history of crime (or police corruption/ineptitude) in the town related to whatever you're covering in these disappearance/murder videos, that would be more appropriate. But if you are covering a cryptid/folklore then I think doing the native American history is appropriate.

[@jennydoe9255]

those tables are seriously wobbly =D

[@audibjornsson6107]

I was super excited finding out about History Hut because im a history nut lol i love your history bits in these videos i appreciate them! Buttttt you only got 3 videos on history hut....get back to work 😂😂

[@leo5961]

"I don't believe information should be kept secret!" says the guy who joined a quasi-secret society. ;)

[@aaronboggs9094]

Thanks for the video guys!

[@laurahenriksen19]

Keep the history!!!

[@AniGrannyOG]

Are you guys still planning to look into Ladybird Lake? Edit: Your audio levels have definitely been low for the past several weeks. I have to turn it way up to hear. Last week Roanoke's levels were fine, but tou guys were barely audible. I watched this podcast and then moved on to another video from before the new setup and the audio difference is stark.

[@alphooey]

1:08:30 hands up if you haven’t done the “I’m perfectly sober” for a short time. … parents, coppers