THEOLOGY & PHILOSOPHY: The DIFFERENCES, & How To Disagree WELL | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101

Dr. Leighton Flowers talks about theological and philosophical differences within Christianity. Should we cast those who disagree out of the kingdom? 🤔
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #Theology

[@IdolKiller]

Thank you Leighton. I appreciate you.

[@LPerez7276]

Thank you Warren. I appreciate you appreciating Leighton

[@IdolKiller]

@LPerez7276 and I appreciate you appreciating me appreciate Leighton 🙏

[@jennyniemi4690]

@@IdolKillerI appreciate both you and Leighton and I appreciate you appreciating Leighton. 😊 Both of you have helped me so much in my journey away from Calvinism. You both exemplify the graciousness and humility of Christ. My husband and I are still in a church with a very Calvinistic pastor who came 10 yrs ago. We have been there over 30 years and might need to leave, which is heartbreaking (and tricky as my hubby is on staff). We have wrestled with so much and both of you have helped us process and think through our views Biblically (and even philosophically). Leighton’s books have been so helpful and we have even bought some copies for friends. Warren- your recent music video was brilliant and sadly speaks into our church context. I love your creativity! Anyway, blessings to you and Leighton. Keep up the good work!

[@IdolKiller]

@@jennyniemi4690 thank you. Praying for you both

[@glstka5710]

@LPerez, IdolKiller, and jennyniemi. I appreciate you all appreciating each others appreciating the appreciating of appreciat... [Secret Service man tries to show him where the stairs are and keep him from falling down]

[@JesusFanatic]

hi pastor... just wanted to say thank you from the bottom of my heart.. was struggling immensly in my life and faith... my understanding of God was off with my calvanist unbringing... was close to ending my life far to early... but your interpritations of the scripture played a huge role in understanding and knowing Him.. Your attitude alone is beautiful to see.. thank you thank you thank you for showing the world Gods love

[@bornagainbeliever1429]

Praise the Lord 🙏🏻🙌🏻

[@yankeegonesouth4973]

Dear Leighton, Thank you from the bottom of my heart for being so respectful and for treating us as adults. I wish more people would talk about these subjects as you do. Please remain firm in the faith, brother.

[@lauromartinez8948]

Nice! A video on my question. Thank you Leighton. 🤗

[@SupernaturalIsNormal]

I believe that God knows all possible contingencies in all situations!

[@AlexanderosD]

I'm a simple man, I'm just glad God accepts the simple minded and doesn't require us to have all the philosophical and theological things figured out. I feel like the first disciples of Jesus, like the guy at the pool of Siloam, are watching our theological debates and just chuckling.

[@oterosocram25]

All believers should be apologetically driven BUT to deep in to the weeds will divide the body, those who want to debate all the time and those who want to defend the faith

[@jjphank]

@@oterosocram25 yeah, not too many useless quarrels should happen as the Bible says, but everybody should know more and more add to their faith goodness and goodness, knowledge 2 Peter 1

[@bobbyadkins6983]

​@@kgar5StringDo you know all of the Bible?

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

@@bobbyadkins6983 Nobody knows everything about the Bible yet, but you're missing the point. If a Christian is not growing or deepening their knowledge of scripture, they're dying. They're certainly not qualifying to teach anybody once the time comes to help Christ set this world back on the right foundation. Christ isn't marrying His Church just for it to sit around and admire Him for the rest of time. It is going to be busy.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Sir, you're not the one I was asking. I know none of us knows it all and that we need to grow spiritually.

[@70sPlugga]

Thank you Leighton so much for your words of encouragement.. They've been helping me immensely

[@st.christopher1155]

I’ll take “Theistic determinism is bad philosophy” for the daily double.

[@Tbail]

This is the clarity i have been looking for since being exposed to your positions and WLC's presentstion of Molinism. I've not been able to put into words the difference/similarities. Thank you for this clear presentation

[@amber_m_OT_nerd]

Exactly! You don't have to be a PhD level genius to understand and read the Bible. God doesn't only reveal himself to only theologians or scholars. Grandmother hermeneutics can be some of the most powerful teaching in the world! Don't let the fancy talk and alphabet soup after someone's name intimidate you out of reading and studying the Bible for yourself. God's word was given to everyone. He meant for us all to understand it, not just a special class or category of people.

[@ruthsnively7248]

Thank you. I appreciate your videos. Theyn are so helpful.

[@daddada2984]

To God be the glory.

[@marce.goodnews]

Became Catholic thanks to this channel. Now I go to Society St Pius X, to the Traditional Latin Mass

[@Michaelh217]

@marce.goodnews How did Leighton convince you of Catholicism? I don’t think he would have endorsed that. Was it because you think they hold uncontested doctrine compared to Protestants?

[@ArleneAdkinsZell]

Thank you.

[@NikoFinn]

Thanks

[@jeffreybomba]

If you talk to a philosophy PHd they will tell you that the study of philosophy really is the art of good argumentation. Different philosophers have tried to come up with logical frameworks to explain the world around them. As Leighton touched on, our world, our own bodies, and certainly God is far too complex for us to wrap our heads around it all. Ultimate theology should be a philosophical system that uses the Bible as its foundation. The problem is when we bring external philosophies, and we try to make God’s word fit them.

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

Mmhm. Certain ones at limits can be used to explain. Pual uses small doses of greek philosophy To teach. But doesn't conform the bible to the philosophy

[@jjphank]

You cannot out psychologize the Bible for God not to throw you into hell for all eternity. In other words, you cannot come up with a good enough excuse here and now, so you will not be able to on judgment day. If you say you did not want to be born, God is going to say you should’ve been born again, that means become a Christian so that’s not gonna work. And there are no other excuses try to think of one. So now you know for the first time in your life, that the Bible is smarter than you and it is a steel trap, smarter than all of mankind, What should you do then? So at least investigate and look to see that these things are true, because right now you just learned the Bible is smarter than you, and you will be accountable for your life on judgment day before God! Prophecy, the Bible is 27% prophecy, that’s future history written in advance. God‘s really sticking his neck out to get it cut off if he’s wrong, but he hasn’t been wrong about the thousands of prophecies that were fulfilled, so he’ll be right about the end of the world prophecies as well and you’ll have no excuse on judgment day for not looking for truth! Caveat: you cannot look for God in times of chaos says Isaiah 45:19, so you better do it now. In other words,You’ll be too worried about your own survival when chaos hits, than your eternal destiny! Statistic probability of 40 writers writing the Bible with zero margin of deviation, proves God wrote the Bible through the 40 writers! God authored the Bible! DNA does not auto encrypt, the code writer is outside of the code of the 3300000,000,000 lines of computer code in the human genome of our DNA! So who wrote the code to such sophistication? 1,000,000 seconds is 12 days, 1,000,000,000 seconds is 32 years! That’s the difference between 1 million and 1 billion! One person’s DNA could fill the Grand Canyon up to 50 times full of books. John 21:25 “I suppose everything Jesus did, the world wouldn’t have enough room for the books telling of it.“ this verse would be fulfilled! Psalm 139:16 “in my members you have written many books“! Psalm 139 is about the human body!

[@jjphank]

Can God make a rock so big he cannot lift? He’s Almighty so everything he makes Hecan lift! Hebrews 12:27 “ And this word, yet once more signifies, the removing of things that are shaken as of things that are made those things which cannot be shaken may remain”.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

This is foolish talk, and NONE of it is based on scripture. In fact, i'd argue that this is why adherents of traditional Christianity don't believe their bibles. This world, our bodies, and God, are NOT too complex for true believers to understand. The problem is you simply won't believe what God says about all these things at face value. You elevate human reasoning above God's revelation, so you only end up confusing yourselves about what the Bible says.

[@jjphank]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 you could also addendum your comment with Colossians two and proverbs our psychology as a Christian! OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word “knew” in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@williammarinelli2363]

Before addressing a question with the premised upon, "If God knows 100% of what will happen..." I'll try to influence discussion of "Does the Bible, COVER TO COVER, convey that exhaustive foreknowledge premise?" If so, so be it. If not, when will we deal with it?

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

10:45 AMEN. It's striking how willing the Calvinist is to embrace and proclaim a doctrine which cannot avoid bringing into question the very nature of God. And which forces them to defend God's character from the claims of their own doctrine. In the end, they claim God is good.... because they must... but within the parameters of their system they cannot say 'how' or 'why' God is good. It's just a mystery.🤔 Calvinists unintentionally become convinced to buy into the same lie the Serpent proposed to Eve. And find themselves worshiping a God who cannot be trusted to love any one particular individual. They can only hope he loves them... but they can never know for certain.

[@alfredomartinez3041]

Through the Holy spirit and they are spiritual gifts to the believer who walks with the Spirit.

[@chris20874]

Hey is there a list of just full episodes? I know people like the shorts but I can't find where I can just play the long episodes back to back.

[@jeffreybomba]

Why does this become so difficult? Humans always want to take the simple word add push it left or right, legalistic or licentious, man centered or nothing to do with man. The Bible tells us the God chooses and we choose. How can we make those both work together? One extreme says we have no REAL choice (Calvinists try to get around this, but can’t without some measure of cognitive dissonance). The other extreme says that God has chosen everyone He knows with chose Him (Free Grace, name it and claim it salvation). How about God makes Himself known, and some profess faith making a choice. God examines the heart, saves those who are humble and contrite, and trials and tribulations will reveal those who God did not judge to be as such. Some of those will eventually, truly come to God, other will walk away (1John: they do not and have not k own Him) and others will remain the self deception until the end (Matt 7: I never knew you)

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

The big problem to is also people adding to definition. I.e. lust (it's just wicked desire like with lust of world)(or covet) Desiring what u should not But augustine (as smart as he was) (Decided that sex was bad.) Pleasure was bad) Adultery (modern) is not biblical definition. We all do this we think of words society knows and apply them to bible. Licentiousness (aselgelia) Living for just pleasure But many will say what ever they believe might be that. It's how you get some saying no alcholol ever. Modesty(isn't just clothing) (It's about being un vain)

[@dw6528]

DW: Calvinism's foundational core is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within the doctrine of decrees. John Calvin -quote The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3) Accordingly - no impulse can happen within the human brain - unless that impulse was knowingly and willingly decreed. Now an infallible decree (because it is infallible) does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees. Thus if it is decreed that Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME_T then that decree being infallible - does not grant any ALTERNATIVE option to Calvinist_A Since NO ALTERNATIVE is granted existence to Calvinist_A - it follows - Calvinist_A does not have a CHOICE in the matter - simply because NO ALTERNATIVE exists for Calvinist_A to choose. This is why your statement about CHOICE is so critically important!!! In Calvinism - as you can see from the example above - humans are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything.

[@joseonwalking8666]

Have you considered discussing some of this with E. Orthodox apologists and clergy? David patrick harry and Fr Dcn. Ananias Sorem (phd) etc. Are great.

[@toughbiblepassages9082]

Where, in any of this, did he actually answer the question?

[@trebmaster]

LOL what a way to end the segment!

[@ShepherdMinistry]

Does anyone know Dr Flowers eschatological position-curious if he’s a Dispensationalist or not.

[@OneHighwayWalker]

The question asked at the beginning seems to be common these days. Scripture tells and shows us that unrighteous people can have righteous children. The lineage of Jesus/Yeshua contains King Ahaz. If he had not been born, it appears that there would have been no Savior.

[@timothybierl2746]

Theology and philosophy are different sides of the same coin. They are unique to their sides, but both complete the coin. Theology is religious philosophy.

[@christophersnedeker]

I was actually a universalist because of the question of why God would create someone he knew would go to hell, especially given Jesus said it was better for Judas not to be born, (I explained that by saying it ment born in the literal sense of born not that it was better for him to not exist). I figured universalism and free will were compatible because God would simply abstain from creating that person in the first place. But then I thought say we grant my universalist reading of the line about Judas, then it would be worth it to create the reprobate even if they end up in hell. So God would still be benevolent in creating someone who ends up in hell, if we grant that ending up in hell is better then never existing in the first place.

[@jdkayak7868]

What are your thoughts on the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? The only Reformed church that took out Calvinism but retains accountable/safe polity of Presbyterian Church government? The hardest part for me leaving the PCA is that I don't trust congregationalism as it's proven to be very unsafe in the USA with abusers/bad leadership not being held accountable.

[@grizz4489]

There are elder led churches that are not reformed. I go to one.

[@jdkayak7868]

@@grizz4489 elder led is a positive but still congregational unless there's a system of elders above them.

[@grizz4489]

@@jdkayak7868 I do know that there a 3 different types of church government. I was in a church with a congregational church government for most of my life. I had a voice. I could attend and participate in the decisions involving church business. It was an autonomous church. Now for the past 8 years i have been in a Presbyterian type of church government where elected elders run the church business. I now have no voice. It was like pulling teeth just for me to get a letter of commission so could do prison ministry. It is frustrating at times. There are advantages and disadvantages to each type of church government. I sincerely wish you the best. Blessings.

[@billmarvel8111]

That is why GOD said the just shall live by faith!!

[@dw6528]

DW: He also says "Come let us reason together", and he also says "Examine all things and hold fast to that which is good". And he also says: "A FALSE balance is an abomination to the Lord" Obviously - a balance cannot be both TRUE and FALSE at the same time. Thus the scripture affirms what is called - the Law of noncontradiction - and/or the Principle of Bivalence

[@GrahameGould]

It's a pity that it's almost impossible to find people who claim to be Christians who are open to fellowshipping regularly online without it devolving into constant bickering about less important issues, or even constantly having to defend the gospel from their heresy.

[@jameskirk2220]

Hi Dr. Flowers, I have been for some reason been following you when I usually am watching Dr. MacArthur or Sproul's. I am very confused on the free will vs God sovereignty. My question I need answered is cant these both be true together? Also if its really up to man to make a decision for God, then wouldn't that be works, and not a complete work and grace of God? Thank you Dr. Flowers. I am not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I need to know how you feel on this. I'm going crazy trying to work this out, lol...Praise the Lord and blessings to all my brothers and sisters on this commons section!

[@dw6528]

DW: The reason people find the topic of Free-will in Calvinism confusing is because the *FORM* of free-will which exists in Calvinism - is not something Calvinists want to tell you about. . In Calvinism - it works this way: 1) For any decree to be successful - it must be granted "FREEDOM" to come to pass 2) If Calvin's god does not grant "FREEDOM" for that which he decrees to come to pass - then he is a house divided against himself. 3) The same is true of "PERMISSION". If Calvin's god decrees [X] to infallibly come to pass - he must grant [X] "PERMISSION" to come to pass. . 4) However - creation is never granted "FREEDOM" to countervail an infallible decree 5) So there is NO "FREEDOM" granted to the creature to BE/DO *OTHER* than that which is decreed. . Take Adam for example: 1) Adam must be granted "FREEDOM" to [EAT] the fruit because [EATING] the fruit was decreed. 2) But Adam is NOT granted "FREEDOM" to [NOT EAT] because [NOT EATING] is CONTRARY to the decree - and creation is never granted "FREEDOM" to countervail an infallible decree 3) Also - per the doctrine of decrees - the impulse in Adam's brain to [EAT] must also be decreed 4) Nothing can exist within creation unless it is decreed 5) And an infallible decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE from that which is decrees 6) Consequently - NO ALTERNATIVE impulse is granted existence within Adam's brain. So in Calvinism - you have NO SAY and NO CHOICE in the matter of what your will will be. And your will is only "Free" to BE or DO that which was decreed That is how "Free-Will" works in Calvinism. That is why Dr. Kenneth Wilson calls "Freewill" in Calvinism NON-FREE "Freewill"

[@grizz4489]

James, your premise ( your question ) is not exactly correct. A person does not receive the gift of everlasting life by making a decision. Its not mans free will vs Gods sovereignty that should be focused on in regards to man being born again. The sole issue is believing in Jesus. God gives the gift of everlasting life to all who believe in Jesus for it. Believing in Jesus is the only condition for everlasting life....NOT making a decision.

[@dw6528]

@@grizz4489 DW: In Calvinism humans are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything because 1) A necessary condition of a CHOICE is the existence and availability of more than one option. Oxford Learners Dictionary Choice: An act of choosing between *TWO OR MORE* possibilities Longman Dictionary Choice: if you have a choice, you can choose *BETWEEN SEVERAL THINGS* KJV Dictionary Choice: The act of choosing; the voluntary act of selecting or separating from *TWO OR MORE* things 2) An infallible decree grants existence to *ONLY ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION* and man is granted NO SAY in the matter of what that option will be. For example: If it is decreed Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME_T - that decree is infallible and does not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE. Calvinist_A does not have a CHOICE in the matter - simply because NO ALTERNATIVE exists for Calvinist_A to choose.

[@grizz4489]

@@dw6528 I all ready understand what calvinism teaches. Not a single shred of scripture supports tulip. I dont care what calvinism says, i care what Gods Word says and that what my comment reflects.

[@jameskirk2220]

@@grizz4489 But where dose the believing come from, if I'm dead in sin?...This the thing that I'm curious about. If the believing is of God, ok as that is what I thing the bible teaches, but I still think some how the bible teaches that we are asked to choose, which would make it a works and not grace...I don't have a side in the basic Calvinism vs everything else...I am just trying figure out the above issue of where is the believing coming from, God, or Man? Blessings Friend...

[@peterfox7663]

That question asked in the beginning is assuming that God creates each one of us as the Calvinists think - I wouldn't say that God creates any of us. Our parents' genetic material combining creates us.

[@peterfox7663]

@@kgar5String No, God made a system for reproduction. Just like he did for respiration, digestion, circulation, etc

[@mexican-americanmale3035]

Who do you think creates and sustains life then, or ordains us to live? Who created and sustains the universe to being with? Who do our spirits belong to? Who creates our spirits/souls? In whose image are we created in? Who knows us before we were in our mother's womb or before the foundations of the world? Who do we answer to? Who are we created for? Who is called creator? Who made and/or allowed the circumstances for our parents to meet? Nothing/nobody can be created or allowed to exist without God being involved. Us being created by God is not calvinism, its biblical.

[@alfredomartinez3041]

The word is so simple...it takes people to complicate it 😅

[@user-qf9dh8cj7m]

I am an Open Theist and a non Calvinist Christian, born again Christian . I believe the word of God substantiates Open Theism. Parts of the future are genuinely Open so all is not known by anyone. God knows whatever HE is going to do and what he is going to bring to pass. He does not know every decision of every free will creature. Jer 19.5

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

I don't disagree. Scripture mentions several instances of 'optional' outcomes and consequences. Jesus saying to Peter in the Garden that night that he 'can' ask and God 'will' send legions of angels is not a lie. He chose not to do that. But he declared it to be actual truth. It was no lie. When someone asks me if God knows the future. I just reply that I do not propose to know what it is that God knows. That, among a couple other things🤔, is above my 'pay grade'. I can say with confidence that God knows what he claims to know and has revealed to us in scripture. I can imagine that it might not be necessary for God to actually 'know' everything. And I have no doubt that, if it may be that God does not know something, God knows exactly how to find out what he wants to know. His test of Abraham sacrificing Isaac illustrates this enough for me. God says "...now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."Gen.22:12 Theistic Determinists have God playing checkers with himself. He's both the arsonist and the fireman.

[@gregmiell3037]

What he calls philosophy I would call logic and/or reason

[@dw6528]

DW: That is a good observation! However - those who need to find ways to get around logic and reason - do so by LABELING it philosophy. And it is no surprise to find those who do that - eventually resorting to MAGICAL thinking.

[@jeffreybomba]

I wonder if open theology lends itself to pre-Adamic societies? If God does not really know what will happen, then maybe His planes keep failing, so He has to keep resetting everything until He gets it right?

[@chrislucastheprotestantview]

No, but that is what some open theism views would lead to. I see myself as an open theist, but to me, claiming closed theism means everything is settled, where you have time, then God existing outside of time, which means there is no present. Whereas I believe God knows people so well, He knows everything going on, so its easy for Him to predict everything almost as if it happened. It is sort of like knowing your children or knowing behaviors of people. I can predict a republican primary, who is going to place in what order. And I work hard to help certain candidates. So it's not like I want things to be a certain way. But I just know how people are, and so I know how things will end up. I think God knows people even more, and they are far more predictable to Him. I would probably hold a view very close to Warren McGrew. Where God knows everything that can possibly happen and he can know with certainty what will happen. I hold a view that we exist in an open theistic world, but that God, with His omnipresence deals with things in such a way where it almost looks like a closed theistic world. That's why I think most people struggle with trying to figure out which is right. I would start from a Strict Presentist view, then try to figure out the rest. I think William Lane Craig has a pretty solid view for a closed theist, but I argue you cannot be a real Presentist and hold a closed theistic view. So that's why I recently did a video about Strict Presentism , to differentiate my Presentism from his.

[@jwt208]

Oh my God, Dr. Leighton I still want to support you. I agree with you 99% but my God would you say philosophy is any part of this discussion. Are you saying Plato has any influence on your theology?

[@jordandthornburg]

Because it is. You’re doing philosophy right now by stating we shouldn’t use philosophy. That’s your philosophy. It’s just a self refuting one so not a good one.

[@jwt208]

@@jordandthornburg I disagree, my opinion about theology or scriptural interpretation is not the same as using human philosophy as a vehicle to understand scripture and the world.

[@jordandthornburg]

@@jwt208 it doesn’t matter if you disagree it’s just the fact of the matter. You are always using a philosophy of one sort or another. The only issue is, is it a good philosophy or a bad one?

[@jwt208]

@@jordandthornburg you sound like a anti-Christian troll. So goodbye.

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

​@@jordandthornburg Also we can split correct and mold a philosophy We can toss what is false. I.e. the parts of Plato that augustine used that gave us o.g. sin. Which is gnostic. But o.g. Plato prior to his death proly wouldn't agree with neoplatonic and gnostic views. Pual (apostles) Even used it spun it on its head and soley picked the compatible parts. He used scripture as the filter to view ideas Not Philosophy as filter for scripture. So many get this screwed up. Bible must be the filter

[@chrislucastheprotestantview]

I hold to Strict Presentism. Which i argue is the only real Presentism. And while one can have a view of God almost operating as one sees God operating in closed theism, the reason why i coined the term was to separate my view from William Craig because i think any form of closed theism leads to not having Presentism. I do not think one can have God live outside of the present and have a sensical "presentist" view. That was the only reason i did a video wasmainly in response to that

[@gk.4102]

What is "strict presentism" in few words?

[@chrislucastheprotestantview]

@@gk.4102 it basically means that you do not believe in things like time dilation. Because time is not a tangible thing and a strict presentism View. Like for instance, William Lane Craig would say that there's this thing called time and that God exists outside of it . To where I would say that there is nothing but the present . Like William would say that God existed in a Timeless State and then create a time and then chose to exist within time with his creation. Whereas I would say that God was always present and then 6,000 years ago when he created the heavens and the Earth those things began to exist in the present with God I do not think time is something that can be dilated by gravity or is some tangible thing. I basically think what we would call time is just changes and things in our universe relative to other things. But I don't believe time exists as a dimension

[@gk.4102]

@@chrislucastheprotestantview You gave a lot of explanation by negation, but I found a sentence in there that was a positive explanation, so thanks. So do you guys believe that God has an infinite past? By that I mean that God has gone through an actual infinite series of events before now.

[@chrislucastheprotestantview]

@gk.4102 with my view of strict presentism, I would not say that God has an infinite past but instead I would say he has always been present. There is never a moment when God wasn't present Picture you being in a void and you have nobody and nothing around you all you have is just your mind. How would you know how much time has passed? The only thing you would know is that your present but you wouldn't know how long it took you to think each thoughts. You wouldn't have a point of reference for anything as far as time passing. And most of these theories about so-called time dilation have more to do with the speed of light that it does with actual time dilating

[@gk.4102]

@@chrislucastheprotestantview Let me re-ask without the phrase "infinite past". In "strict presentism", does events happen sequentially? If yes, has God gone through an actual infinite series of events before now?

[@jjphank]

Can God make a tree or mountain so big that he cannot lift? Everything he makes he will be able to lift ! Hebrews 12:27 “and this word, yet once more signifies, the removing of things that are shaken as the things that are made that those which cannot be shaken may remain!”

[@kayfiset2818]

As the hymn says, If our lives were but more simple, we would take Him at His word. There is a reason that Jesus said we were to be like children. Our trust in Him is to be simple. How much of this theological and philosophical argumentation comes from the reverse of the simplicity that is in Christ, as Paul put it? This is not a criticism of you, Dr. Flowers, because as I listen you are saying basically the same thing. It is a powerful temptation to use great intelligence wrongly.

[@duncanwashburn]

Here's one person's opinion: When we are not "in Christ" we are in the state mentioned in Eph 2:1-4. When we receive God's free gift as alluded to in John 1:12, offered because of God's grace, received because God's gifted all the ability to choose by faith (or reject by faith in something else), which is salvation, we become "in Christ". All those "in Christ" are elected and predestined; all those that reject the free gift of receiving Christ, remain "outside of Christ" and unsaved. ALL glory belongs to and goes to God Who is the Giver of ALL good gifts (James 1:17)

[@Chupie77777]

Leighton, I think you're smarter than you say you are. I think its that thick Texan accent that masks it 😉

[@jeffpaton9667]

True Theology is based solely upon what God says, and philosophy is the worship of the superiority of man's reason. Just because people believe some theological/philosophical mishmash is why debate will always exist in the Church. It is because men trust their philosophical reasoning by making themselves superior to God. If one thinks that they can disprove Calvinism by arguing in their realm of philosophy, they will always lose the debate. Calvinism will always win, for it is the perfect circular philosophy. Philosophies always change and evolve for the next superior philosophy (Francis Schaeffer,) and since its origins are in man's mind and not the Word of God it will always fail.

[@SupernaturalIsNormal]

Mystery is obvious when it comes to knowing the characteristics and knowledge of God! Who are you Oh man to believe that you know the mind of God?

[@lauromartinez8948]

What 😂

[@dw6528]

DW: This commits the fallacy of Composition and Division - which states - if something is TRUE of one thing - then it must be TRUE of Everything. For example - the tires on the man's car are made of rubber - therefore the whole car must be made out of rubber. Thus if there is ONE characteristic of God that cannot be known then NO characteristics of God can be known.

[@SupernaturalIsNormal]

@@dw6528 are you able to define the Lord God with words? He is beyond epistemology.

[@dw6528]

@@SupernaturalIsNormal DW: Your to late for that. John Calvin spent pretty much his whole life (in his mind) defining God with words. And he ( as the father of Calvinism) gave that practice to his offspring as their inheritance. So they go around (in their minds) defining God with words. As the saying goes: Man was mad in God's image and John Calvin decided to return the favor! :-] BTW: If anything is beyond epistemology - then you wouldn't be able to know it one way or the other.

[@richhuzy6592]

Not real sure why Leighton has so much problems with Calvinists when he agrees that they to are Christ followers and are Christians and are saved like the rest of Christians?

[@jamesgrosso4372]

Calvinism hinders the spreading of the gospel. It provides an easy rejection of Christ.

[@armchairhiker3635]

There is not a rooster that crows. This is a figure speech speaking of one of the watches of the night, there were several watches during the night and they would blow a horn twice before the watch with the name of the rooster crows

[@ABSMTube]

Im staying lutheran. Knox and Calvin took it too far

[@johnknight3529]

One wonders why Leighton doesn't consider it possible that God caused Peter to deny Christ three times before the rooster crowed? I mean, didn't Jesus tell him why they would deny him? "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples." It's not reasonable, to my mind, to think God would hesitate to truly control things during that event. The disciples just didn't get the big picture, so to speak, even though he told of it several times before that. But they would get it soon enough, in part because His ability to truly control things if He wishes to was demonstrated to them in various ways. And what harm to anyone was done by that demonstration?

[@peterfox7663]

He's not saying that Jesus couldn't have determined it. Leighton would absolutely say God determines some things, therefore He knows those things. He is saying that simply by knowing, that does not necessitate determining.

[@johnknight3529]

@@kgar5String - My philosophy says God controls whatever He wants to control, and doesn't control what He doesn't want to control. Which to my mind means He's got all the power, including freedom to do as He pleases.

[@johnknight3529]

@@kgar5String - PS, I think Leighton believes pretty much what I do about these matters, but sometimes fails to recognize that His ability to control what He wants to, makes it unnecessary for Him to "see into the future", in order to know the end from the beginning. Because He can "make the future" at will. I mean, who's gonna stop Him? In this case here, He could know what was going to happen because He intended to make it happen all along, Assuming He's doing that all the time in regard to a nothin' much like me, is way beyond being egotistical. (He does not need to control my every fart in His windstorm ; )

[@dw6528]

@@kgar5String DW: That statement commits the fallacy of false dichotomy. Accordingly - a THEOS who would grant man (in this case Peter) a CHOICE in the matter is not all powerful.

[@johnknight3529]

@@dw6528 - (it also commits the fallacy of; I can see into the mind of Leighton Flowers ; )

[@LawlessNate]

"I don't grasp how God creates something from nothing." You're using the naturalistic definition of "nothing" by suggesting that. You're implying that if something isn't made of matter then therefore it's "nothing", which implies therefore it doesn't exist. Is God "nothing"? Does God exist? Clearly He does exist and isn't "nothing", yet God isn't made of matter. God doesn't create things from "nothingness", he creates things from Himself. Eg: The universe didn't come into existence from "nothing". It came into existence because of God. That's the universe from God rather than the universe from "nothing".

[@jjphank]

God made the first law of thermodynamics, which says matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed; so he can create the matter he has to it can’t be created otherwise! And The law of entropy is only explained in the biblical worldview, & no other. Genesis 2:17 death came to the universe through the first sin. Romans 5:17, 1 Corinthians 15:22

[@LawlessNate]

@@jjphank The death brought to the world by sin in Genesis metaphorical spiritual death, not literal biological death. Death is a common motif for sin and its consequence, facing the justice we are owed for it.

[@jjphank]

@@LawlessNate false, you cannot explain why things die, God made everything good in the first chapter. Why did plants and animals start dying and humans? Sin leads to death

[@LawlessNate]

@@jjphank "God made everything good in the first chapter." You're interpreting "and it was good." to mean "there was no biological death." That's a completely blind assumption. I could just as easily say "and it was good" means there was cotton candy everywhere, and it would be just as supported as your interpretation, which is to say not at all.

[@jjphank]

@@LawlessNate you’re guessing that death was there before when God created everything good ! But the Bible says The wages of sin leads to death, so there is no death without sin and death is a continuous state which leads to hell again Genesis 2:17 proves death is continuous because the day They ate ofthe fruit they will die and hell is called the second death, which is eternal! Again; Jesus died for the sins of the World not for his own sins, otherwise that would’ve defeated The reason for the cross; What You said!

[@robertmcvicar5824]

Romans 9v18-23 To all of Fallen rebellious Man . We don't matter all is for the glory of God. If you're supernaturally born again thank God for your election. Your a vessel of mercy.

[@williammarinelli2363]

And if one is a dishonorable vessel, then the Scripture solution is to repent and get right with the Lord so as to become a vessel unto honor. Jer 18:8, 2 Tim 2:20,21.

[@robertmcvicar5824]

@@williammarinelli2363 Hi William thank you for your reply. We're all dishonourable vessel's until The Holy Spirit regenerates us and enables us to Repent and believe the gospel. Then we're vessel's of honour for God's glory. The Holy Spirit indwells us and sanctifies us for the rest of our lives. Which is why through much tribulation we must enter the kingdom. PTL.

[@dw6528]

DW: Just remember - in Calvinism - the believer is not granted CERTAINTY of election because 1) The elect are a DIVINE SECRET known only to Calvin's god 2) Calvin's god creates a large percentage of believers as CHAFF believers - whom he deceives giving them a FALSE SENSE of salvation. John Calvin explains -quote But the Lord....instills into their minds such *A SENSE* ..as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11) -quote He illumines *ONLY FOR A TIME* to partake of it; then he....strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8) These Calvinists - will go through their whole lives - experiencing a constant stream of FALSE PERCEPTIONS of salvation - and eventually wake up in the lake of fire - and at that point realize they were created as CHAFF believers -specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. John Calvin -quote by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god though the reason does not appear, they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. - (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121) John Calvin -quote God knows what he has determined to do with regard to us.......if he has DESTINED us to death, it is vain for us to fight against it. (Institutes 4.23:12)

[@user-nd7dy2kv6x]

If Provisionism were true - the whole world would believe upon hearing the gospel.

[@eric_sandstrom]

The work of flowers reminds me of hell. Though you continually pay for your sin it's never paid because because you continually keep on sinning, So it is flowers tries to do a presentation against Calvinism he loses every time and the cycle is never ending. It's clear flowers does not harbor the Holy Spirit he really needs prayer rather than ridicule. I apologize

[@eric_sandstrom]

Please note I do not suggest that flowers doesn't harbor the Holy Spirit only due to the fact coming against Calvinism is the whole purpose of his ministry even though that fact alone speaks volumes against him, that's not why I conclude the guy is not saved

[@eric_sandstrom]

Flowers is wrong with his assessment of God's sovereignty in salvation.. Flowers is wrong