These Karate Masters HATED Each Other (Who Won?)

[@tonygallagher6989]

Motobu Choki's cousin, Chotoku Kyan, was apparently a great fighter too. His karate still exists as Shorinji-ryu. There seem to be fewer videos about him though.

[@Shoshun-s9q]

Which is surprising, considering how highly he is regarded on Okinawa. Several of Kyan's students became highly regarded masters in their own right went on to found styles of their own (e.g. Isshin-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, etc).

[@renbukancho]

Kyan sensei taught Motobu choki, Funakoshi and Motobu had different philosophical backgrounds, one confucius and the other daoist

[@PhinTheShoto]

Funakoshi and Motobu's rivalry is one of my historically favourite feuds in Karate history. I respect both their philosophy and adopt it to my life as a martial artist. There is no fighter unless I have a strong spirit. I have no strong spirit unless I fight for it.

[@michaeltrujillo6799]

Know your goals. Thanks for sharing this. A year ago I restarted my training in Taekwondo, after being away for 30 years. I am now a Green Belt about to test for my Purple Belt. Going back into martial arts has been ideal for me as it has helped me with my mental health. Stress, anxiety, and depression had been taking a toll on me. Through martial arts I have focused on my inner peace and find balance in my life. 🥋🇰🇷

[@YoukaiSlayer12]

I remember watching Jesse Enkamp covering this & it made me think about & bring up the social dynamics at the time. Seeing how Motobu’s family was a branch of the former Ryukyuan royal family prior to the annexation which made the former King(Motobu’s cousin) a member of the Japanese House of Peers at the time. Which made me wonder about how that aspect played into their physical confrontation.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

I think their background and upbringing and objectives played a MAJOR factor in the outcome. Considering both of their fighting styles stemmed from almost the same root...imagine if Funakoshi was healthier as a child and spent his days growing up street fighting? I bet he would have been a much more formidable opponent.

[@Vincentorix]

I switched from kickboxing to Shotokan Karate to find a more balanced approach to martial arts. I will beat the hell out of anyone who try’s to take away my inner peace or pursuit of a better character.

[@PhinTheShoto]

Fellow kickboxer switching to Shotokan too! Good to see a kindred spirit!

[@drago1127]

So they're basically the Danny larusso (funakoshi) and johnny Lawrence (motobu) of their day

[@ianmcleod7502]

Great show my friend. Fitting we spoke the other day and this episode runs now. As you well know i used Karate to learn to walk again, ride a bike, enjoy a great life again with my son and now teach other people with disabilities. After 6 years and 9k hours i got my Black Belt, can i defend myself yes i can, can i fight no, not really. But i would not be alive today without all the hours of training my body, mind and spirit. I thank you again for all you have done to get my story out. Keep up the awesome work!!

[@aldenhaverfield655]

My martial arts goals changed as I evolved as a person! At 6, I wanted to do cool stuff like break boards and flying side kicks. At 14, I wanted to be like the Shaolin monks and be badass while being able to heal others. At 16, I wanted to be a killing machine. I grew up in an unpleasant home environment and angry young men make great killers. At 21, I wanted to embrace both the combative and spiritual aspects of the martial arts. If one conquers one's passions(rage), he can become a truly better person! Here I am at 58, simply wanting to get back into one of the few things that brings out my best. But, first, knee replacement!

[@javidharoonpkm2443]

If every karate style goes back to full contact training with grappling, throws & ground wrestling etc then the issue is solved. Only then we will be doing justice to learning this fighting art.

[@mgunfighter]

it's pretty much the authentic okinawa version of daniel larusso vs johnny lawrence !!

[@ArtofOneDojo]

That's a fun comparison!

[@mgunfighter]

@@ArtofOneDojo larusso's way of teaching mostly character perfection and defence while lawrence's style maxed out on toughness and aggressiveness, i'd say it's pretty close to funakoshi's teaching vs motobu's teaching. the only difference i can think of is larusso and lawerence got along in the end while funakoshi and motobu didn't :(

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@mgunfighterTrue, but to be fair, Daniel and Larusso had a major clash, then reunited over 30 years later to renew that clash, but they stayed in continued contact, had their kids thrown into the mix, and had to face a common enemy. All of those events are what led them to finding neutral ground. Maybe Funakoshi and Motobu would have eventually had their timelines played out similiarly?

[@sliderx1897]

​@@ArtofOneDojomaybe its time for karate styles to unite

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@sliderx1897That's like the holy grail mission of the martial arts. Kenpo guys within the same version of Kenpo can't unite. Politics can be a stubborn thing lol. I do agree though.

[@Dannyboy-ci3qk]

we did that kumite style at my most recent school and my current students also practice it. I can say my favorite part is how scale-able it is. Someone in their first month can get just as much out of it as a seasoned veteran. Just by tweaking the rules and tempo to the ability level. even making it turn by turn is helpful to create that familiarity with just being in that range with an opponent feeling how stuff moves. we do just hands - 3 step ( attack 3 times then defend 3 times, and continue without resetting unless necessary ) hands and feet 3 step hand and feet 3 step with kicking. 3 step with counters. half paced free sparring full paced

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Love it! I think it's very valuable training.

[@ronnoron3004]

You are a wise man,it’s about context plain and simple.

[@bhekuzulukhumalo3967]

Motobu was correct, Kata is vital, only as a means to show a student variety, use that variety and discard what is no good for you. At the end of the day it is about fighting. Motobu was not jealous of Funakoshi, it was the other way around. Funakoshi was also jealous in that no matter how much money he had, how he could speak Japanese, Motobu of the old ways, from even the Rotyal house was better than him at their traditional art. So Funakoshi had to despise himself and insult his betters because they couldn't speak a foreign language, and pretend he somehow has more knowledge, but he lacked the knowledge where it counted. It is like the Rhodes blacks, those that go to Princeton, Yale, Oxford, Harvard, Cambridge, and that type, they go and do stuff like physics, are so-called good blacks, but were it counts in discovering, lacking all they can say about blacks who discover is smear, they don't wear trousers, they were traditional clothes, Motobu had knowledge in what counted.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

"discard what is no good for you" - it's not a matter of what is no good for you, but all Kata contains information. Not every single bit of that information fits everyone's specific goal so it's more of a matter of pull out what is relevant for you. Remember, all Kata was originally was just a "textbook in motion" for students to take home and study motions. They were partner drills that could be practiced by one person solo. As time went on, information got passed down and a lot of the meanings were lost in translation. That is why there is a big effort today to study Kata and apply Bunkai, and try to extract what the original meanings were. I do believe Funakoshi and Motobu were BOTH jealous of the other. Motobu didn't have the same success, but Funakoshi couldn't fight as well. I think both gentlemen handled the situation poorly and again that reflects a lot of the attitudes we still see in the arts today.

[@grigoreureche345]

I have read in a book a tale about Gichin Funakoshi that described a situation where he was attacked by eight thieves and defeated them.And some other tales about about him where he used his martial skills to defend himself. Maybe the gut was not good at fighting or competition but was good at self-defence(katas and bunkai that were taught by Funakoshi are for self defence).His son,Yoshitaka came with the idea of using Shotokan for competition and fighting.

[@TBButtSmoothy]

motobu is lethal, its not competition karate at all. self defense turned combat

[@ralfhtg1056]

I am clearly on Choki Motobu's side. But I know that without the Funakoshi side Karate would perhaps never have grown so big and we might not even know what it is... I really struggle to be grateful for the development that things took. The history of Shotokan as it is, is a very sad one to me.

[@TheCosmicburrito2]

Balance… without this, you are a danger to yourself and others. Character, physical fitness, and conditioning are just as important as technique, distance, proper timing, and strategy. Without the weapon, there’s no real target. With the wrong person holding the weapon, everyone’s the target.

[@ajshiro3957]

This story sounds like the perfect plot to an anime.

[@shoshin_karateka]

There should be a movie made about Motobu and Funakoshi!

[@draltar]

If this indeed happened, both Motobu and Funakoshi were disrespectful of each other. Motobu ashamed Funakoshi in a challenging display going into his dojo and harassing him to a "controlled" fight. Funakoshi, on the other hand, felt humiliated and bashed Motobu's reputation afterwards. None was right, but Motobu started it. Now think about this... if Funakoshi indeed bashed Motobu's reputation after this incident, wouldn't Motobu return to his dojo and give him a final humiliation as revenge? (he already did it in the past and ignorant accusations are serious). In the long run, Motobu became almost forgotten while Funakoshi's style (no name at the time, but later on it was named Shotokan) became international. But thing about this... the old masters teached several Katas, Motobu practiced just one (Naihanchi) - isn't that itself against the Karate principles? Funakoshi was against competition (not against self-defense), he defended that Karate should be practiced for self-defense, however, Shotokan became very competition oriented afterwards (not his fault though). In the end, we ended up with a washed down Karate style from old okinawan days, made to fit the "japanese" way of thinking, in line with sports like Judo or Kendo, far away from the self-defense Karate from old days (in part, Funakoshi's fault). Who wins? No one and everyone. Karate is now worldwide spread (positive part), Shotokan one of the most known styles, but in many schools, sport-combat oriented and not self-defense oriented. It is up to each student and each master to practice the old way (budo way of self-defense) or the sports way. I like Motobu's way of thinking that Karate should be practical and work in self-defense, but also the traditional way of the old budo, the Katas, that are in themselves, self-defense moves (and what defines the different styles), if you learn to think out of the box and actually find the self-defense movies within them.

[@ryanhatten7751]

Great video! Love these history of karate videos. Would love to see a video on the meibukan history of goju ryu 👍

[@Kyle-vb3fz]

Our style is based on Shotokan, so naturally I will always have respect for our founder, Funakoshi.

[@TheThinkersBible]

This is a great perspective. Very pragmatic. Most people won't use it in a fight anyway, to be honest. My personal opinion matches Motobu's. Martial arts are not martial arts if they can't be used for martial purposes. There should be another name for the kata-only arts (aikido, daito-ryu, non-martial tai chi, etc.). But practicing them is not wrong and it's fun.

[@bensigl3766]

If anyone wants to see something else REALLY interesting, look into Motobu Udundi. That was the family style which Choki Motobu broke from to found Motobu-ryu. When westerners think of Kenpo in Japan being of Chinese origin, i think Motobu Udundi is similar to what they imagine.

[@KBox1991]

So this was basically real life Miyagi vs Cobra Kai. Just all Japanese no Americans.

[@waynejohnson2894]

Well again, awesome scholarship and presentation. I will buy all Forefathers in the near future! Thank you Sensi!!

[@kennethjohnston9736]

"BLEEP that noise".... I love this channel!

[@jtilton5]

I'd love to see a collaboration between you, and Kuro Obi World.

[@tusharbhalla5336]

I haven't seen Sensei Tatsuya Naka since a long time on Kuro Obi World channel , do you know why we don't see him these days ?

[@jtilton5]

@@tusharbhalla5336 no idea.

[@tusharbhalla5336]

@@jtilton5 ok

[@sliderx1897]

Unfortunately they dont speak english

[@sardalamit]

To everyone his own. I agree. I do want 'some' effectiveness. So it's combat sports like Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ for me. I tried my hand at Wing Chun .. unfortunately because of a lack of sparring did not enjoy it as much...but I do see value in it for people who don't have my goals. After all this is not the feudal ages! A martial art is a relic of a bygone era and most of us today will never be in a real fight ever.

[@michaelquebec6653]

EXCELLENT VIDEO! 🙂 And yes, it matters, because history is the study of human behavioral constants. You're absolutely right, we still have the debate over both methods, and honestly, probably always will...

[@Dragonssire]

As always loved the video. You have a great way of coming up with interesting takes on long held discussions. I also love the art used in the video to fill in the gaps where there were not any photos. Any chance the watercolors or ones like them might find their way to your merchandise store?

[@garybooker6458]

I think that both approaches are necessary. And I say this as a martial artist, father, public school teacher, and someone that grew up learning a Shotokan-adjacent system as my first martial art, only to have to re-evaluate my approach when I entered middle school and faced real bullies with less-than-desirable success. The traditional aspects of martial arts helped me with the stress management and emotional literacy that I needed to survive the rockiest parts of my family life. But the end of my 6th and 7th grade years sent me on a wild goose chase to find a combat-focused martial arts school. This is also when the UFC came on board, where traditional fighters were getting demolished by the Gracie family for 5 years. It would have been nice to have a sensei/sifu/sabonim that focused on both mindsets. Motobu was right, but so was Funakoshi. Karate fighters should be able to fight, AND they should be emotionally literate and respectful.

[@shihohappo]

Taika Seiyu Oyata had a few friends and training partners in Okinawa, however a lot of Okinawans didn't like him. Problem was Taika could back up his skill. Real shame his organization splintered. Always happens after a Masters death. Thank you for the video!

[@ajshiro3957]

Are we sure this isn't just the story of Akuma and Goken from Streetfighter?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Maybe this was the inspiration?

[@dakentaijutsu2010]

Never thought of it that way, possible inspiration?

[@pausetape8824]

I heard Motobu Choki is related to James Mitosi so I understand why Motobu Choki is like the way he was however you have a point

[@barrettokarate]

Never heard that before, but Mitose did supposedly train with Motobu. From what I understand the only kata that Mitose knew early on was Naihanchi which was Motobu's favorite.

[@mizukarate]

Agreed.... You must define your goals. Also you need to reinterpret and/or redefine them as needed. Anyway "Martial Arts" need to be a competent mix of fighting skills and life skills. All our goals are different but a martial art needs to have these two elements in a balanced format.

[@Zack1440]

All martial arts need to be for fighting and there has to be respect too.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Does Tai Chi still need to be for fighting? :)

[@Zack1440]

@@ArtofOneDojo yes if it is done the old school way: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKHVhHmihL2NfdEsi=I7fFbNStGeqwSF8v

[@Zack1440]

@@ArtofOneDojo Tai Chi black belt. 3rd degree black belt in Long Fist here.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@Zack1440 Good answer :)

[@joaoguilhermebastos519]

Very good Dan. On personal perspective i'd like to add we may change our opinion over time. When i was around 20 i was full Motobu, now, beggining my 30s and teaching others i feel much more Funakoshi oriented. That means i do not consider means of DESTROYING ENTIRELY MY OPONENTS important? Hell no! However, firepower is nothing without someone wise aiming. So yes, we should build good things for life using martial arts, we become responsible for our earned power but there must be some actual...you know... power.

[@Zack1440]

Thank you for your work 👍🏽

[@ThePatience404]

I love your diplomatic response. I completely agree as well, there are different pulls for different people different areas for application. I am glad that they were both able to benefit from their experiences in the MA and I also think that robby kean had a good point in cobra kai about what everyone thinks about their martial arts. However while Mr Parker shares that sentiment that there are no pure styles of karate... but that last part makes me wonder pure knuckles... pure flesh, who do you think he would have sided with in this fued?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Parker would have absolutely sided with Motobu, but probably argued that the peace and self improvement Funakoshi wanted could be achieved by knowing you could defend yourself.

[@camiloiribarren1450]

There’s always been a certain rivalry between Okinawan and mainland Japanese styles due to different points of views, applications and training methods

[@pichetkullavanijaya6908]

Actually, they did a duo dance with the "I Tumble For You" song by Boy George. And they held hands, and walked off into the Sunset together. How sweet... There is a Japanese Samurai movie, 1999. You can find it yourselves Gohatto [1999]

[@mrthebillman]

Funakoshi introduced the japanese to the 'technique' of Chambering, something which did not exist in Shuri Te. A way to develop more power in their blow by first pulling their arm away from the incoming strike. Because, ... WHAM!!, and they're down.

[@ryan201087martin]

Love this video. Would definitely be interested in more stories like it!

[@randallpetroelje3913]

I agree soon soon, I believe in the shin ken gata. Real world applications in combat.. however, Contin, you learn proper stance, balance, and form, and you learn the applications. They both have their place.

[@rolandoisidroturrubiartes16]

Hi sensei, very interesting, however there is no record of that supposed fight between master Funakoshi and Choki Motobu, apparently that idea was distributed by Choki Motobu, since if it had really happened it would be logical for Funakoshi's students to abandon training, but far from it, Shotokan karate grew enormously. On the contrary, Choki Motobu was only a troublemaker among drunks, that is, he liked to offend drunk people, which is why Master like Anko did not want to teach karate to Choki Motobu, since he was more of a troublemaker. That's why he only learned a single kata.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Well this gets tricky. Perhaps you're right and it was made up, but if it WAS made up, that's still a rivalry between them because that would be a smear campaign by Motobu. One thing though is, if the confrontation did occur and Funakoshi lost the fight, I would doubt he'd lose all his students. He still had great fighters and his son also taught a more aggressive style. Additionally, Masters like George Dillman and many other frauds have been exposed and they still retain their students. So if a fraud and crook can keep his students after being publicly exposed, then someone like Funakoshi who was a very respected Karateka would keep most of his I would think. After all, that magazine article using his picture against the boxer was real, even though Funokoshi was not in that match. This just shows that nationally Funakoshi still had a lot of respect.

[@rolandoisidroturrubiartes16]

@@ArtofOneDojo I agree that they were evidently not exactly friends, I understand that Master Funakoshi considered Choki Motobu to be uneducated, and not only Funakoshi thought that, it is known that the people of the time considered Choki Motobu as an ordinary hooligan, his own family came to consider him that way; it´s true that the mistake made by the local newspaper of the time occurred, when they edited Funakoshi's image as if he had defeated the boxer, an edition in which Funakoshi had nothing to do with. It is also true that, at that time, there were other great technical fighters or not, as today there are so many good exponents in various martial arts, and it is also true that currently there is no unity in the practitioners of the different styles and, even in Shotokan itself exists in different versions and "lines"; That is why I totally agree with the final approach of your Maestro video in the sense that we must keep in mind what we do martial arts for... better physical condition, moral issues, learning to defend ourselves with a fighting system...

[@bw5020]

So I didn't think your response was a cop out. I think it was very nuanced

[@joumasepoes88]

I must point out the difference between Karatedo and karatejutsu. Like judo vs jujutsu. One is the gentle way. The other is the application of aggressive banking.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Yep. And Funakoshi and Motobu are good examples of the differences.

[@joumasepoes88]

@@ArtofOneDojo exactly. Hey great vids by the way. Thanks for doing what you do.

[@jinchuu04]

An interesting dynamic you briefly touched on but some seem likely played a big role in the rivalry was the Okinawan vs Japanese dynamic - in the sense that some Okinawan karateka thought of Funakoshi as a 'traitor.' Japan had invaded, colonized, and occupied Okinawa. Funakoshi, an Okinawan, adopting all things Japanese (including 'Japanizing' his hogen name to Funakoshi) rubbed some the wrong way. That and the 'outsized' credit he received for bringing/popularizing karate in Japan when other Okinawans had and were doing the same. Motobu's fealty to being Okinawan and Funakoshi's embrace of being Japanese probably influenced how they viewed each other.

[@wildwaymartialarts]

I honestly agree with both of them. A martial art is the art of killing a man. But I don't think looking for such conflicts either. As Rurouni Kenshin so aptly put it in the manga/anime, "the art of sword is the art of murder. No amount of fantasy can change this. But I prefer Mrs Kourus fantasy. " We should never eliminate the purpose of martial arts being to rip someone apart if needed, BUT we should understand the difference of an enemy from an uke.

[@bieneulm1982]

Motobu and Gichin didn´t hate each other, not at all. Funakoshi actually mourned greatly after Motobu´s passing.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

It's still possible to mourn someone you didn't like, or even have strong feelings against. During this rivalry they were both pretty antagonistic to each other.

[@matttora106]

This needs a movie on its own,could be a 3 part movie one of each growing up and getting stronger then the 3rd movie there grudge

[@spinningdragontao]

Personally I think it is sad when masters of different styles are antagonistic with one another. The rivalry between styles can be healthy but all too often the rivalry becomes all consuming and the animosity that grows to poisonous levels. All martial arts have something to teach , there is an art to suit everyone but no one art fits all. Vivre La Difference - as the French say. We are all brothers and sisters under the same Sun.

[@Shadowman9348]

Motobu will always be my favorite because he was a real fighter and knew how to apply his karate. 👊🥋 Quick edit: Is grandmaster Hwang Kee featured on one of these shirts? ✊🥋🇰🇷

[@oskarjohansson5757]

Wise Word osu!

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Great video! :) In my opinion, both were right ;)

[@dorrenes.missdthetruthtell5342]

I studied this form at military base in 1966 Fort Bliss, El Paso, Tx. I was a teen interested in appropriate defense. I appreciated a sense of personal control/discipline!

[@septred3]

I am on neither side, Flower in Kempo aka the Dan of this channel. Simply put, "the only fight is your artform." That is why I am not on either side independent of those disciplines as war in tradition in land of rising sun. I bear the brunt of the entire rising moon as a country that you walk upon to this day.

[@soumikdey7305]

Motobu Ryu was effective

[@johnpjones1775]

When it comes to the -do vs -jutsu debate there really shouldn’t be a debate. 1. -do styles aren’t martial therefore not martial arts. If someone doesn’t want to teach people to fight and people aren’t interested in learning to fight that’s fine, so what makes you happy. The whole issue that causes any real debate on the subject is when people are teaching ‘a way of life’ or basically trying to be life coaches, but then advertise self defense in some way. 2. -jutsu practitioners build character and all that other stuff the same way people who don’t do martial arts or ‘martial’ arts do it. By living life, and being taught values from their families, friends, and communities. Plenty of -do instructors and practitioners who are flat out bad people with no moral character.

[@malcolmhines4214]

Both Grand masters are great in there respects. Kata I believe gives you understanding of what happened in a fight, from start to finish, and some say that if you do it just right, you can do kata in a fight. Hmmm, true I have only seen it once before, but that is a one in a million chance that it will happen like such a way in the street. People don’t move like you want. So there for kata is at best a template on how to move in a fight. When the two Grandmasters clashed with there respectively strong karate styles. Witch will lead them to there out comes in that fight. I have the utmost respect for them and there marshal art styles and for you sir. And remember kata is good in tournaments and to show how to fight an a fight.

[@SamCobb]

I agree with Motabu, He wasnt picking a fight with Fanokoshi, he was proving to him that his shotokan at the time really was not good for self defense. Fanokoshi was the one who according to this story made a total ass out of himself. I'm glad Fanokoshi's son atlered shotokan to be more effective for self defense. You can do martial arts for health and well being, but you could be doing the same thing by training for self defense like what Motabu believed. Fanokoshi's son really did the art of shotokan alot of much needed good.

[@stonerguitarist4690]

I believe both i love to have balance ying and yang

[@bramvader8401]

I only know the Okinawa karate style Goyu Ryu it looks a lot like Motobu Ryu very effective it says you can only be effective in a fight if you know youre basic moves through kata.

[@RejsMedOs]

I don't believe the picture supposedly of Anko Itosu is really of him. Joe Swifts book about him states that the person in the picture is of another gentleman, but I don't remember the name. I do believe it is a master of Jigen-ryu.

[@Sui0Generis]

I agree with Motobu. If you just wanted character development, be a priest. Martial arts should be applicable in martial scenarios.

[@davidkinnison9157]

A Martial Art teaches a philosophy through fighting. A Combat System teaches how to kill your enemy on the battlefield.

[@kaganturktur]

Why japanese dont make movies on it? I never understand. There are great movies about ip man, master hong, hua yuanjia but no movies about karate masters. I think it is a must, Choki Motobu is a legend. Of course I am on his side %100. He was the bruce lee of karate even before bruce lee existed. People should bring up motobu ryu. I am not a karateka but I would really like to see it. There should be at least 2 3 movies about him.

[@ADAM_COLLECTS]

Karate should be a tool for life, not the other way around

[@davefletch3063]

Motobu. Funakoshi proved he was a rich snob, and not a fighter

[@danielreid3476]

It's very difficult to say if this really happened or not. A number of the elements to the story are questionable. I agree though, it is relevant today. The problem is that people perceive karate to be about fighting, and it very much isn't.

[@fulcifan6946]

Who made the paintings?

[@fulcifan6946]

Actually, I can tell by the hands that it’s AI. AI can’t make hands worth a damn yet. Count the fingers 😂

[@chasefoster8092]

Everyone knows the most effective self defense technique is just use the Kamehameha.

[@0713mas]

Kata competitors and point fighters are like Funikoshi. Full-contact karatekas be like Motobu

[@stonerguitarist4690]

I trained in judo akido kendo jodo karate and taekwondo it all works just practice practice no sloppy habit ya thank me in the field

[@yogi8337]

Actually Motobu Choku POV about Ti (karate true name) its not about fighting The dispute is about, how Gichin as Okinawan Ti master, change many things about Ti itself, so Ti lost it's soul, Funakoshi teach his own son the true Ti, but teach his student modification Ti, the modification Ti it's bad for health in the long term in Motobu opinion.. even breathing technique in kata is catastrate. So Motobu is always senile about Gichin teaching. He even said gichin Ti teaching cannot be implemented in fighting (in motobu opinion) so he comes to gichin dojo few times, just to beat him black & blue

[@Shoshun-s9q]

Contrary to your "fictional depictions" Funakoshi and Motobu were pretty unlikely to have worn karategi when they were children or adolescents, since the judogi (on which the karategi is based) wasn't invented until early in the 20th Century, when both men were in their 30s. The karategi was developed in the 1920s (adoption of a standard training uniform based on the judogi was a condition for recognition of karatedo as a "real" budo by the Dai Nippon Butokukai). It wasn't fully adopted on Okinawa until the 1930s.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Correct. It was creative liberty to tell a visual story, which is why we made it clear it was fictional and didn't try to pass it off as real

[@PrinceAkaiVtuber]

Still wish they had time to prepare for an actual fight.

[@barrettokarate]

Why? Doesn't matter how much preparation Funakoshi gets, he still would have gotten his arse kicked. Funakoshi was a poet and an educator, Motobu was a fighter. He tested his skills in actual combat. You can't beat experience. Put the average karate instructor in there with Lyoto Machida and the result will always be the same, Machida defeating "Average Joe, sensei".

[@shantanusapru]

Who was right? No one. And, both.

[@bjf9304]

If you teach Martial Arts, your students should be able to defend themselves. It’s ok to do for other reasons but it should be labeled as such. Therapy karate, cardio karate, meditative karate or whatever. You don’t want people to have a false confidence that they can fight. And that does happen.

[@donelmore2540]

I’m yet to find an old Karate “Master” who did not start as a weakly child who became strong after training in the Martial Arts.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Well...Motobu lol.

[@donelmore2540]

@@ArtofOneDojo I read sometime back that he came from an aristocratic family and could not relate to common people. Thus, he could not keep students. As an aside, some of the nicest people I’ve ever met were VERY highly accomplished Shotokan practitioners.

[@ericshimizukarbstein6885]

@@donelmore2540 It is true that he came from an aristocratic family, but he was born after Japan conquered the Okinawa islands. Very few Okinawa aristocrats could maintain their riches, but that was not the case for the Motobu family, they are royal blood, and allowing any royal blood to maintain their riches after conquering their land is never a great idea. Instead, they used hidden valuable items to get some money and send their children, oldest to youngest, to education outside Okinawa, usually in China. Choki's father only had enough to send his oldest son to be literate and to teach the royal family style of Tode. While Choki was the youngest and remained more illiterate than most, he also trained with more common styles with several great masters of that time, some even with his older brother. That does not mean he was not privileged, in his time as a youth, to train under a master you either had to be from a privileged family or prove your determination and morals to the master. No one can question his determination for the martial arts, but there is more to the story. Even though it was common practice to send some of your students to have a week or two of training with another master, it was very rare to have someone to train under multiple masters for long periods with each master, a few of them in at the same time. He was probably rough in personality by nature, but certainly, being the one in the family who had the least amount of care in their own family probably made him even rougher, remembering that there was no such a thing as psychotherapy and most traumas usually became internalized in the person, both on Western and Eastern cultures. As always, such old stories tend to lack information to be certain of anything about an individual being.

[@cpiper6338]

It's my opinion that the arts are supposed to encompass mental, physical and spiritual and a major part of the physical is sparring. Otherwise, where is the "martial" in your martial art?

[@CharlesBenitez-bt6ci]

with all that similarity in styles, What to hate each other about ?. nothing unique in them. one style of karate reverse punch starts from the hip and the fist executed facing horizontal, while other styles, again from the hip and execute a vertical punch with the fist thumb facing upward. nothing unique. want to know what's unique ? and also wears a karate uniform and a black belt, shorinji kempo. that's a unique style.

[@AngloSaxon1]

When people talk about the Karate man fighting a "Western Boxer", it always makes me cringe a bit, why was it such an achievement ? One of the greatest Karate men ever, beats a completely unknown boxer. Were they that afraid of Boxing that a defeat by a karate man had to be celebrated in the newspapers?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Because at the time American Boxing was on the rise in popularity and becoming a global spectacle. There were a lot of great fighters so the concept of traditional arts fighting this new "modern" sport fighting was something that held a lot of allure.

[@barrettokarate]

Because that boxer (and several other westerners) had defeated other Japanese fighters prior to this. The fight took place in the early 1920s when karate was still relatively new to mainland Japan, so its effectiveness wasn't really known to the Japanese. Also Motobu was in his early 50s at the time and was an unknown himself. On Okinawa he was a proven bad ass, but on mainland Japan he was a "nobody". That's why Funakoshi's image was used instead of his in that article. If you've seen photos of him, he didn't exactly look like Lyoto Machida. He was very short (ethnic Okinawans are physically smaller than their Japanese counterparts) and had a pot belly. Imagine that visual for the people at the time, a short, middle-aged unknown Okinawan man with a gut vs a taller, bigger, young(er), most likely well built fighter who had beaten other fighters. In 2023, you can call him _"One of the greatest karate men"_ but 100 years ago when the fight took place nobody knew him. Actually, I would be willing to bet that during the course of him lifetime, nobody outside of Okinawa really knew who he was if it wasn't for authors like Patrick McCarthy.

[@AngloSaxon1]

@@barrettokarate how do we know that this boxer had beaten anyone, do we have any evidence other than hearsay? Is it written down anywhere that this boxer was anyone special? It all makes this story pretty cringe.

[@darwindarukdok5181]

it is not about karate and boxing that they celebrated. It was about a small japanese man using an indiginous art beating a huge white man.

[@AngloSaxon1]

@@darwindarukdok5181 I still don't get it, how do we know the White man was huge surely that would g]have been an exageration by the newspapers to make Motubo look even better than he was. But whatever way you look at it, it is still a master karate man beating a man, probably a sailor just trying to earn a few quid taking on the locals.

[@Ronin-101]

Motubu > funakoshi. Funakoshi was delusional.

[@actually_a_circle]

Motobu sensei!

[@combatsportsarchive7632]

Muneomi Sawayama's Nippon Kempo (since 1932) is much more pragmatic than the teachings of Gichin Funakoshi and Motobu Choki. Look at the curriculum and bouts in Nippon Kempo to see why.

[@caomengde1645]

If you want to improve your health, you do yoga, aerobics jogging, etc. 😂😂😂

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Or you can also do kata, shadowboxing, bag drills, rolls, and martial arts in general. There is no reason someone can't train in the martial arts for the sole purpose of improving health. It's one of the highest calorie burning activities you can do. I know of a traditional Goju Ryu school that has a high number of people with injuries and disabilities training to improve just their daily function. If it works, who's the tell them that they should be doing other activities instead of Martial Arts?

[@urbanbushcrafter1924]

UFC filtered out all of the BS.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

"BS" has different definitions based on different goals. Also, UFC isn't the end all be all to combat and martial arts. It's fantastic, but the goal is still a sport. It can be used to fight, but it is missing focus on a lot of important areas.

[@daniel-zh9nj6yn6y]

The Karate Combat ruleset is close to what old Karate was. Old Karate didn't have ground-fighting, though.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

This.....this isn't right.

[@barrettokarate]

@@daniel-zh9nj6yn6y Yes it did. Okinawan karate was partially comprised of Okinawan tegumi (wrestling). Now, is an old Okinawan master going to out grapple a Kosen judoka or a modern day jiu-jitsu practitioner on the ground? No. But they weren't training to combat one of them, they were training to fight a street thug. They kept it simple. If it goes to the ground finish it quickly before anyone can jump in and help your attacker out.

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

This is why your martial art is bullshit - Master Ken of Ameri-Do-Te

[@vincentlee7359]

Funakoshi had beef because Motobu beat the fck out of him in front of his students 😂 Motobu and didn't have the brain cells to conaider Funakoshi as a rival 😂