'It's the politics of envy' - Katharine Birbalsingh and Paul Embery on private school VAT

[@Hail_Storms]

Adding VAT to school fees strengthens the class system because it makes private schools even more exclusive.

[@tomwright9904]

Complicated * Children of well of educated parents in statw school spread culture * If membership of a private school "pulls people into" a culture rather than strengthening links between cultures tgen this doesnt help

[@maryhart9688]

I thought Acadenies pay Vat already

[@Ghost-Dna]

I agree . Let’s abolish the private schools altogether

[@nannanz2097]

But don’t the parents of ‘private school kids’ also pay tax; so are essentially paying for education twice?

[@dertery8724]

Many at the more expensive private schools are international, but if they are domestic parents then yes.

[@chrisnuk]

As someone who pulled my kid out, I would say I don't think it's useful to think of it that way. There are some doing it for status and some because they want to give their kids the best they can. With me, when I moved over, it was nice getting something for the taxes 😂

[@Brommear]

@@chrisnuk So what exactly did you get? And what does your kid get or lose?

[@hughiemg2]

​@@Brommearinterested to hear his reply but if private education didn't have value people wouldn't pay for it. The higher rates of success of privately educated children is no coincidence.

[@craig3533]

@@nannanz2097 And people without kids still pay taxes towards education. I have no objection to paying for state schools. I have enormous objections to paying for a handout for wealthy scroungers trying to buy their kids an undeserved advantage in life and expecting others to subsidise it.

[@robinfox6088]

Labour and especially Phillipson and Miliband are economically illiterate.

[@ravens-crypt]

Which is mind boggling considering their education background but than again it’s one thing to go to classes and do the work and then retaining that knowledge and applying it in practice on the job.

[@catwoman7462]

So is Reeves.

[@karlyoung6289]

😂😂😂

[@harrietcanwell2058]

Katharine Birbalsingh is just brilliant here. We need her as our Secretary of Education.

[@LucySloane]

Absolutely..

[@catwoman7462]

I wish she could be cloned so that all schools have their own Katharine Birbalsingh headteacher.

[@crownmiura8877]

Why turn a great headteacher into a government functionary who'll spend most of her time wrestling with teaching unions over pension perks?

[@karlyoung6289]

😂😂😂

[@karlarcher8773]

Having six children going/gone through the state school system, having seen the growing idealogues working in secondary schools I would advise anyone who can keep their children away from them, do so.

[@chrisnuk]

It's worse there!

[@BR26-o6o]

But i think as Katharine indicated, the ideologues have entered the private sector now.

[@Petejoeoliver]

Isn’t this a reason to fund state school better?

[@Truthseeker6859]

@@BR26-o6oIt's a lot less prevalent though.

[@Truthseeker6859]

@@PetejoeoliverThe opposite. They are not underfunded.

[@ianlewis2813]

Half the kids from my son’s class in his private school left this summer, off to state school… my son only has two year left so we decided to keep him at the school he knows, we are working class but decided to give our only son a better start in life which we did not have,we both went to state schools, we don’t even own a car or a house.

[@dama054]

This is a typical labour policy not making the poor better off just making everyone poorer

[@Pastaface]

The parents of privately schooled kids have already paid for state education through income tax etc. AND spared the state the burden of educating their children. "The grown-ups" have left the building.

[@michaelwilkinson2928]

It's not the politics of envy, it's far worse than that; it's the politics of resentment.

[@trevorhart545]

INTERESTING TH0UGHT! ENVY v RESENTMENT, GREED v AVARICE IT IS EASY T0 MISDIAGN0SE JUMPING F0R THE M0ST C0MM0N PR0BLEM. N0T THE EDUCATI0N per see BUT THE C0NTACTS, THE CIVIL SERVICE BIAS etc.

[@Pastaface]

Also the politics of revenge - the etonian cabal of cameron, johnson etc. They are also seeking revenge against pubs - tim maritn (whetherspoons) and Farage - the brexiteer pub acolytes.

[@johannabarry4672]

Also the politics of hypocrisy. Many labour politicians are beneficiaries of private or have selected to educate their children in the private sector.

[@janemayor9210]

Ironically a lot of politicians went to Eton !

[@leighgoodwin1726]

Independent fee-paying schools are no more “private” than our universities. To attend you need to pass a competitive assessment process and have some means of meeting the tuition fees. In practice, the envy tax will reduce social mobility, meritocracy and opportunities; moreover, it will lower the level of academic excellence and resources dedicated to education (generally considered a public good and important for economic growth). Bursaries and access to independent school facilities (eg the swimming pools and lessons that the Education Minister considers unimportant) will be reduced to keep fees down, and less advantaged kids will find it harder to access the better state schools that will have an influx of applications. The policy tells us everything you need to know about Starmer

[@Hail_Storms]

Indeed. And it also makes private education even more exclusive.

[@Peggypatch01]

As a dyslexic, i was lucky my parents sent me to a private school which gave me the help our local state school were not able to do. I now run a very successful business and I doubt things would have turned out for me as they have if I had stayed in that state school!

[@thomashobbs1498]

@@Peggypatch01 good for you! It would be great to get state schools at the level to be able to support more children in your past situation who’s parents cannot afford private schools

[@Petejoeoliver]

They have SEN in public schools as well

[@nicksmith4361]

One of my sons is dyslexic and in a state school struggled but in a private school had the nurturing to get top grades in his exams and is now in his early 30s as a senior account manager for a company that trains people across the whole spectrum of business.

[@Petejoeoliver]

@@nicksmith4361 so because you can afford private school your son got the help he needed but the 93% who can’t/don’t have to struggle through life. Or state schools are better funded and all children get the help they need?

[@SpaceWalker2013]

This lovely lady Katherine should be the Education Minister, she is so down to earth and knows what is she talking about and no non sense…..

[@skatebalder6436]

From my experience private schools typically offer their facilities to the wider community. The tweet from the Edu Sec referencing stationary says everything one needs to know - immaturity, ignorance of the issue per se and a large dose of ‘politics of envy’

[@BR26-o6o]

I have had no privilages in life bar the most important one-, wonderful parents. They couldn't even buy us a house but we certainly had a home. No fridge , washing machine or car before I was about 8 or so. They taught us self reliance, respect for others and to be good citizens. They certainly didn't teach envy and to this day i deplore the politics of envy. Massive admirer of Katharine and Paul who is not really a lefty😉 Thanks for the conversation.

[@chill_out_00]

What’s your point?

[@vedicleo5286]

This private school VAT implementation will only further widen the gap between rich and poor as only the rich will be able to afford to send their children to a private school. As discussed in the video, it's the smaller schools which will be hit the most. I send my 2 children to a Steiner school because I do not support the state education system. As a lone parent I am at my limit with what I can pay in fees and I have no idea how I will find the funds to pay the extra 20% hike. Our school is only small and due to financial constraints, the community spend a lot of time fundraising to help keep the school afloat. I've never seen such community spirit and it's an honour to be a part of this. Something the government do not understand.

[@JP-rv6hg]

Private school fees as a % of my salary have gone from 40% to now 60% of my take home pay…. Now making it impossible to fit into my salary as my mortgage has increased by £1000 per month. I either take my kids out or get a second job… that’s my reality. I’m don’t want sympathy - I’m just telling you that not all people who send their kids to school are rich…

[@Petejoeoliver]

Then send them to a state school like 93% of the population

[@jamesanthony9316]

There is no issue with parents wanting the best for children. However the larger issue is that you even need to consider this option. You are never going to reduce inequality in a population when something fundamental like education is tiered in this way. You may not be "rich" as you say but the fact you had the money available to send kids to private school is already beyond the vast majority of the public. Money is always going to help, through additional tutors and such but the situation shouldn't be compounded by having an entirely separate schooling structure on top of this. Not everything related to wealth is a "politics of envy" as the Tories would have you believe. Sometimes it is just sensible thinking. The primary issue is the respect for teaching as a profession has been massively undermined for a long time so most state schools are bad and this needs resolving. The fix shouldn't just be to ignore the overwhelming majority of children for those with the spare income to avoid this.

[@catwoman7462]

@@Petejoeoliver Some state schools don't give a decent education - and no, it's not that they need more money - and some people want their children to have a decent education so have to pay for it.

[@Petejoeoliver]

@@catwoman7462 if they don’t give a decent education then the question is why not? Not enough people want to be Teachers as pay is poor, schools have no money, buildings are falling apart and the kids are disinterested. If you want to send your kids to a private school then that’s great, if people can’t afford it why should their children pay the price?

[@catwoman7462]

@@Petejoeoliver Teacher's salaries aren't that bad actually - a starting salary of £31,650 is pretty good. If the children are disinterested then that comes from the attitude at home where parents don't care about education. My children didn't go to private school as our income was way less than the starting salary of a teacher, and we struggled for basics. However I don't suffer from the politics of envy. My children are now all doing well for themselves because they had parents who cared about their education and made sure they studied, and paid attention. I don't know how someone sending their children to a private school means that the children of those who can't afford to are 'paying the price'. Where's the logic in that statement?

[@chrisowen184]

Gambling is exempt VAT. But guess what? The typical gambler is a Labour voter. Should we tax education or gambling?

[@vanessac1721]

Gambling, obviously

[@observersnt]

Haven’t heard Katherine for a while. Deleted tired to see she is just as brilliant, courageous and sensible as ever. National treasure, a great encouragement in the mess of modern Britain. Excellent communicator as well.

[@davidpickard9393]

Should parents who educate their children at their own expense not be given £7500 a year per child towards the school fees

[@craig3533]

Should people without kids be refunded the cost of subsidizing the tax breaks of private school kids?

[@hughiemg2]

Should I get a refund for my taxes spent on the fire service if my house doesn't catch fire or the police if I'm not a victim of crime? No, because that's not how the social contract works.

[@ScruffyTubbles]

No.

[@jackdeniston6150]

@@hughiemg2 the social contract is failing, this is why we are here. It needs a negotation.

[@LyneworthModelmRailway-c3d]

Nope

[@edytahorner6388]

In some cultures parents will do everything to better the education of their children. Schools are respected, they are seen as places where one goes to work hard. Teachers are respected. Unfortunately, and I agree here with the teacher, we do not have enough of such attitudes in the UK. Those who have are being punished by labour. Very sad, even more sad that they will be disrupting the lives of thousands of children without any care, logic or common sense. Very good discussion, thank you.

[@kr050]

I think we do have a culture of respect and admiration for those doing social goods, but I think it isn't reflected at all by our political elites or by the billionaire run media, who want a politics of selfishness.

[@stu1002]

Private school pupils, by the age of 30, earn £10k more than state school educated pupils on average. Given that's likely taxed at 40%, they will contribute, on average, £5k more per year in Income tax than state school educated. IF you wanted to generate more tax intake, you'd want more kids in private school to be higher earners after leaving.

[@EJ007-z1t]

Thank you Katharine

[@chrisnuk]

👌

[@chill_out_00]

Don’t forget your full stop at the end of your sentence.

[@Cotictimmy]

I hear of the crazy attitudes of Bridget Phillipson and I see & hear the two guests here on this podcast and I think: Why is it that doesn't the Labour Party embrace sensible people?, and Why doesn't the Conservative party embrace citizen democracy and embrace ordinary conservative working class people? The party elites see the citizens as their lab rats for experiments in social engineering (rather than citizens whom they should respect & represent.)

[@danielearley5062]

Sensible people do not join Labour and they do not support socialism.

[@sian104]

All three of my children went to private school as do my grandchildren now holidays forget new cars not at all that was and still is a choice that was made . Politics of envy evil really doesn’t work

[@liveitlarge68]

Well said. We are on our way to becoming Soviet Britain under Fidel Starmer.

[@chill_out_00]

If you’d gone to a state school you might have known where to put a full stop and write a sentence.

[@liveitlarge68]

@@chill_out_00Rather than pointing out grammar mistakes, is there any chance you can actually challenge him/her on their point?

[@chill_out_00]

@@liveitlarge68 no I went to a private school that I hated and I love conservatives so no. Sorry.

[@liveitlarge68]

@@chill_out_00 So your grammar would have been better if you had gone to state school than it is now?

[@alexhatfield9950]

Those who can afford the increase and those who can't afford the increase. Sending your kids to private school does not necessarily mean you are rich it just means you sacrifice a lot. So Private education will be for the already very privileged in society.

[@LyneworthModelmRailway-c3d]

Instead of trying to destory private education, shouldn't the Government (of whatever party) be striving to improve state schools to a level where parents won't feel the need to find an alternative?

[@Cassp0nk]

This policy above all others highlights how incompetent Labour are.

[@chrisnuk]

I paid two grand a month to put my kid in nursery, when I realised I could pay a grand to put my kid in private school a year before normal school started, I jumped at the opportunity. I continued him at private school, thinking of it as an investment in him. However, seeing what Labour are planning and facing the prospect of paying for two, I put him into a very local state school. I can honestly say that it isn't worse. Since getting him in state, he's been diagnosed with ASD and the school has had extra funding, and he's thriving. In hindsight, private is all a bit status, and in that sense, I understand their preoccupation, but I think the government is mad sending the message private school bad with the lack of funds to take the extra kids.

[@yuepercy6521]

Some kids have SEN. some parents tried to make ends meet to send kids to independent school for better activities and alleviate the government the burden and now being punished. I do agree this is a politics of envy 😞. Very frustrated.

[@janemayor9210]

This politics of envy was the same thinking behind destroying grammar school education. The problem was never the grammar schools, but the alternative as well as the way this alternative was viewed by parents. Grammar schools facilitated social mobility - that should have been enough reason to keep them.

[@cnrspiller3549]

The politics of envy is more about resentment than inequality.

[@hothe65]

Private school parents will buy houses or tutor kids to get into better state schools. This will disadvantage the other kids. Stupid policy

[@colinu9209]

Yet another policy that hasn’t been thought through properly and will backfire 😂

[@barbaras5874]

I love Katherine, always inspiring!

[@CB-dl1vg]

They want more kids funnelled into state schools so they can be subjected to labours state propaganda. Also, I couldn’t care less about parents sending their kids to private school. The state does an awful job at running education and as somebody who went to state school with mostly kids off the council estate I grew up on you also remove your kid from a lot of problems in that regard. My school was half school and half a social services centre just trying to keep kids out of prison….

[@SpaceWalker2013]

If you want to charge VAT and treat the private school section as a pure business with no social responsibility, then the government should give tax credits to those family who pay tax and not send their kids to their entitled state schools. This is then called fair enough. What has the state schools do with those kind of tax money paid by the taxpayers who send their kids to private schools?

[@hughiemg2]

Can I have a tax credit if I don't have children? Why should I be paying to subside the education of other people's children. Same argument for NHS, police, and whatever you want to apply it to.

[@AdamJones381]

One reason why you might want to pay for education of other people's children is that the economy would be more successful if children are educated.

[@lewislee9201]

If kids are getting a good education at private schools, then surely any government that cares about the future prosperity of the country should be highly interested in what they're doing right and try to implement that in the state system, instead of trying to drag the private schools down to a lower level.

[@RDHamel]

It the politics of not subsidising the consumption of the wealthy. I can't emphasise enough how little sympathy there is in the country for people who buy their children a private education.

[@quadq6598]

There is plenty of sympathy amongst sensible folk, this is the politics of envy, nothing more

[@MarcusCorbett]

Where is the subsidy

[@hughiemg2]

​@@MarcusCorbettindirect subsidy through not charging vat on something that would otherwise be subject to vat.

[@thinfourth]

i'm paying a subsidy on the poor eating As those trash don't pay 20% VAT on food

[@FortunateSquash]

@@hughiemg2 what are you on about???? ALL education is exempt from having to charge VAT but do pay input VAT which they cannot claim back (unlike a private business) - example- universities don’t charge VAT! But meet the same criteria as a private school, should we start charging VAT on university tuition??

[@paulhignett378]

Labour MPs need to go back to school as nothing they are doing adds up

[@SarahWalker-Smith]

I wonder if the falling birth rate might be driving quite different reasons behind this policy. Could it be that the state system needs to poach pupils from the private sector to keep some schools open ? The problem might be that in the short term it would create more problems than it solves . I think high number of parents of children with low level special needs currently pay for a private education because there is so little provision in the state system. The cost of accommodating these children in the state system might be high or leave them at the back of the class being ignored. These families are possibly the ones who just about manage to pay fees since clearly it has not really been their choice to pay for private education. These are the children who will pay the price of this policy.

[@stu1002]

My daughter is autistic. She's very clever, but the local state school she would have gone to has nearly 2000 pupils. She is utterly overwhelmed by large groups of people and people she doesn't know. It freaks her out. She attends a £6000/term very small private school of around 150 kids, where is is able to feel happy and safe and on course to do very well academically.. She would not cope in a state school, she'd probably end up out of school altogether, uneducated and without qualifications and a subsequent underachieving drain on social services and welfare for much of her life, instead of being highly successful. VAT fees could well make the difference for many kids like her getting private education or not. How is this good for society?

[@patriciaperfect2627]

As usual, Paul is the voice of reason!

[@NorfolkSceptic]

Labour are trashing the North Sea Oil Industry, Manufacturing, because of the higher fuel prices and their future availability, Universities, with their lack of rigour, so why not trash Schools?

[@philstockham585]

excellent piece on the topic, especially from a trade unionist and state head - both very rational; shame our Secretary of State for Education and Chancellor have no intention of actually thinking the unintended consequences of this thru

[@CharlesDibsdale]

Excellent discussion. Other factors to be considered. Many private schools specialise in supporting kids with special needs. These currently charge minimum fees to enable parents to afford these schools. The state sector struggles to specialise in this way. I am ex-military, and we had work benefits for sending kids to boarding school because of frequent deployments. What is going to happen to this? Another factor in disincentivising joining the military for a career.

[@ninasnyman]

Great discussion. Nice to hear someone on the left who argues intelligently and respectfully.

[@picknmix39]

Katharine says the only reason private school kids might be moving to state schools is the VAT change. What about the MASSIVE increase in mortgage payments (which could be as much as £10-20k a year for the some people in London, and the cost of living?!

[@sholness85]

I work with the product of private schools and the advantage is carried through life. Fantastic for them to be lucky enough to be born with the wealth to pay for advantage, but they didn’t earn it. Personally I think we should abolish private schools altogether, then maybe those fees become donations and the resources will be more evenly distributed in society.

[@lewislee9201]

What a negative attitude. Would it not be far better if state schools had the same aspirations for their pupils as private schools apparently do?

[@Petejoeoliver]

State schools should be much better paid for my the taxes of very wealthy trust fund parents

[@sholness85]

@@lewislee9201 it’s not an attitude, it’s full blown resentment at this point because I’ve absolutely had enough of the inequality of opportunity. Aspirations are a luxury that you can only afford when the basic needs are met, so that’s a bit of a ‘let them eat cake’ solution.

[@naughtaegames234]

@@sholness85 Those parents already pay taxes for state schools, they pay twice with tuition. Now you want them to pay thrice and tax them again. Some people break the bank and sacrifice a lot just to afford their children who have special needs a better education. It is only fair that they don’t get taxed as they provide relief to the over crowded state sector. Not all parent are wealthy and these taxes would make private schools even more exclusive. And if we abolish them it would over crowd the state sector even more.

[@naughtaegames234]

If you want betterment in the overall quality of education, this is totally not the way. The only reason you want “fairness” is because you are envious and believe no one should have better things, despite working hard for it. You just use inequality as an excuse for your own failures and create self pity so you feel better about yourself and resent people that are more successful than you

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

Every parent that sends their child to private school is saving the state £7,500. They are providing a massive service to state education and taking away the incentive to privately educate their children is insane.

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

They're an overall drain on the state. Back when we had Grammar Schools, the privately educated (less academic) conventionally went into banking, publishing, the Arts and other industries that generated money. The Private sector has since doubled, and they're hot housing less able kids to suck up opportunities in the the Civil Service, and all the Quangos, that would previously have been selected on merit, and paid from public money including their skyrocketing pay rises and pensions. That's why we've seen such an obvious drop in standards in Public life. These are the people who bought their opportunities and never pay anything back.

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

@GlasPthalocyanine all those things you.mention have nothing to do with the schools themselves though, they're separate problems which are all worthy of attention.

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

@@DavidBrown-ts2us I'm just saying that the parents of private school kids aren't net contributors to society. They wouldn't be sending their kids to private school at all if they didn't think their kids were getting an advantage, and the advantage has nothing to do with merit.

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

@GlasPthalocyanine the advantage is to do with the standard of education they receive. I never went but some of my friends did, the class sizes were smaller, the quality of resources and teachers were better. And there was more of a cultural element among the students of wanting to do well.

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

@GlasPthalocyanine the parents of my friends that went were a nurse and a GP. There was no bought and payed for opportunity beyond having good grades.

[@theislandmonkee5677]

I just can't see why it is that Labour don't get the basic principle at play here, it's not that complicated. Parents paying to send their kids to independent schools are also funding state sector schools through their income tax, the same as parents whose kids actually use those schools. At the same time they reduce the burden on the state sector by taking their kids out of state schooling. Expecting the parents to then pay VAT is taking the proverbial frankly. What a truly loathsome government we have. Five years of this? Really???

[@joerogers4510]

Another day, another short sighted policy from Labour

[@paulmartin6249]

I come from proper working class who has done well by working hard and always doing the right thing. It seems to me that Labour detests working people doing well.

[@elkpaz560]

Envy, and a desire to ensure nothing escapes the diktats of the party.

[@alcogito8287]

Economic illiteracy is rampant. How much does it cost to educate a student in the state school vs. how much it costs in the independent schools? I would speculate it is more. The independents are pinching pennies wherever they can to keep their fees as low as possible in order to attract/keep the parents who are already paying for the state schools with their taxes.

[@malcolmcoram2857]

Perhaps the Labour Party might be better advised to abandon their stifling ideological dogma and, instead, to start considering the reasons which underpin non-wealthy parent's decision to scrimp and save to be able to afford to send their children to private schools rather than simply seeking to punish them financially for making that decision. I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that the parent's decision might be motivated by the failure of state education to provide a settled, disciplined environment wherein children are expected to be well behaved and courteous and where they understand that they have to work hard to achieve good results rather than, as has for many years been the case, encouraging the somewhat vacuous 'everyone deserves to succeed' mentality which has increasingly meant that standards have fallen, grade inflation has become the norm and which has led to the situation where many children now leave state education at sixteen or eighteen years old largely unprepared for the rigours of adult life.

[@fhugheveleigh2]

Labour has a problem re thinking through policy. Ms Birbalsingh's point re a duty for private schools to assist the wider society is better answered by saying that the State acknowledges that private schools relieve the state of having to educate these pupils and that remitting VAT is a fair compromise. Most private schools do integrate with the community and some offer bursaries, assist in the governance of less well off state schools, have state school pupils attend some of their lessons etc. It is not by any means a clear cut argument.

[@georgep4465]

Someone needs to disclose the statistics on the number of private/non state funded schools per year for hte past 50 years. It is quite likely that the trend over the past 20 years shows that smaller private schools have been closing every year for years. The sector is already shrinking in the face of economic headwinds. VAT will be the deathknell for quite a few. Brilliant policy.

[@hothe65]

I am a Senco in a state school. Quite often some SEN kids need independent schools to meet their needs. They should not have to pay VAT.

[@SA-vz7qi]

The switching of pupils from private to state makes this policy net negative very quickly. What is supprising is how they thought getting their mate who was at the IFS to produce sone weak propoganda would hide this fact. What is the plan if private education behaves as a normal good, once the cascade effects kick in you could be looking at hundreds of thousands of pupils entering the state sector, then what? That would be crippling for the Labour party, economically incompetent but trashing education while pissing off uniouns and a work force who have been loyal (to them) for decades.

[@Marek-o3u]

They don't believe in education anyhow, only privilege. Note Blairs belief that if everyone had a degree, everyone would get great jobs and more money....

[@peterhalliday6492]

"Clearly it has prompted them to go looking at the state sector" or in other words. "The VAT increase has made them consider their options"

[@JohnMcGuiness-n4w]

Private schools are a business. They should be treated like businesses.

[@Brommear]

I have no dog in this fight, but what are the fees at the lower end of the private school spectrum, do they get subsidies? Would it not ultimately be more advantageous to abolish public schools and have only privet schools? The voucher system sounds good to me. Let kids go to the better schools like Michaela and the rubbish schools could go bust.

[@peterloup2302]

The State schools are already overloaded and under funded, so the taxing of Public/Private school fees is merely going to add fuel to the fire !! Crazy stupid policy.

[@MrDunkycraig]

I have to say no matter where i see Paul on youtube for a lefty he is pragmatic and knowledgable about the things he discusses. This attack by labour on ideological grounds on private education is envy despite labour mps en masse sending their kids to these institutions. I was a school gov from 06-11 and my city was creaking at the edges on places spare we had 3 available towards 11 and that was across the city at all levels. Mass migration and the resulting baby boom in my area were to blame and lab deliberately in my eyes ignored it. Nothing to see here folks kind of attitude. So i blame both major parties on this cluster buck and have some sympathy for councils now going bankrupt because of it

[@weeksy79]

Everyone is looking at the financial side of this and forgetting that state schools desperately need kids/parents from more influential and affluent families back in their ranks. We’re going to end up with some schools forced to spend all their budget on metal detectors, and the others serving sushi for lunch.

[@Cassp0nk]

If you think they won’t move house instead of seeing their kids used as social workers you are dreaming.

[@weeksy79]

@@Cassp0nk what would moving house achieve?

[@Cassp0nk]

A different school catchment forcing out people who can’t afford the increased house prices.they get that money back when they move back out too.

[@weeksy79]

@@Cassp0nk I guess but it’s similar to the rich people leaving if taxes go up issue; yeah a few will, but they probably would have anyway. Generally if you can afford to live in a nicer area, you will move there. But a lot of people want to live close to family, or work, or their business. We don’t have as much mobility and we like to think.

[@dhaosandy]

The question is, is private education a luxury? If yes VAT, if not no VAT. Simple.

[@tilly.....editssssss8056]

@dhaosandy The same for gym membership and some childrens clothes and footwear, as well as private health care. All luxuries and tax exempt. Are they next? What about nursery and universities too, also tax exempt.

[@picknmix39]

In the discussion they say applications dropped 2%, citing the vat hike. What about the huge drop in birth rate during COVID now feeding into the primary/prep school admissions figures?

[@picknmix39]

Independent schools can choose to pass on the VAT hike or not. They can increase class sizes and reduce extras. No private school with any financial nous would ever raise fees to the point where they would loose income by having fewer students.

[@jkski125]

I am a single mum. One of my kids is in state school and the other at a private school because he is highly academic and needed send support. He has a 55% bursary and I cut down on all luxuries in my life. He is in y10 so in the middle of his GCSEs. I will do my best to get him through the GCSEs but we will go back to the state school and will take someone’s place. Why did they allow more time to adjust for vape business but so little time for the kids, why not to let kids finish their exams.

[@loubieloujones5698]

Bridget Phillipson's tweets were astonishingly unprofessional and divisive. It's straight out of sixth form where Labour appear to be stuck. I totally agree with Paul that people should have the choice. It's correct that there are good and bad schools in both sectors. But people should have the choice.

[@junehope5152]

Speical needs and armed forces children make up a large percentage of children attending private school because there are no spaces in mainstream If schools pass on VAT to councils then they will pay more for each place

[@AL-ib3lu]

Gove "Let's have a balanced discussion on private schools" Researcher "So should I invite two people with differing opinions" Gove "No, and let's get privately educated Kate Andrews in to host it"

[@picknmix39]

Imagine if a government introduced a tax cut for independent schools, allowing them to spend even more per privileged student. Would that be popular?

[@albacan]

A good friend went private despite vehemently supporting the state education he benefited from. Private schools will increasingly rely on alumni donations. The hornets’ nest has been stirred

[@arthurdinucci]

The woman who made that remark in her tweet wrote it on HMG embossed STATIONERY.

[@esc91]

Katharine is absolutely right - we should ask what private schools contribute. They have fallen for the woke as are big spenders when it comes to third party organisations coming in. I'm against the tax as don't think you should tax education but private schools have been the same as teachers generally and forgotten their job is to just teach their subject and not become some pastoral counsellor, or allow themselves to be dictated to by the nosiest and angriest sixth former.

[@peterhalliday6492]

"A really small amount of money...tiny"...or in other words an estimated 1.2-1.4 billion pounds resulting in a predicted 6500 extra teachers in state schools. I find it very interesting what words people choose to us and why

[@AdamJones381]

Arguing that this product or service should be VAT exempt, leads into a conversation about fairness. There will be different ideas of fairness. That is why I think there should be one VAT rate and no exceptions.

[@derekpresland4029]

Sorry I didn't listen the whole debate but the direction was clear. You were all får to understanding and were defending private schools. This is all well and good and I agree wholeheartedly with you there is a strong argument for alternatives to public education. The issue as I see it that Labour is hell bent on introducing a philosophy that is from the past. Private schools were for the upper class and the upper class doesn't have a place in their philosophy. Things have changed but Starmer hasn't. He is an old school socialist. As the good lady mentioned there is no financial justification for making independent school pay VAT. In fact it may be detrimental to the finances of the country. This is nothing more than the upper class must be punished but Starmer hasn't moved with the times, he is stuck in old school socialism. Unfortunately you have missed the point that certain aspects of gambling are VAT exempt. This proves that if you play Bingo you don't have to pay Vat, I think I have got that right, but if your child needs a special type of education you do. This proves it is a matter of principle and has nothing to do with the finances of the country.

[@rossutherland7016]

The answer to this issue is to ensure that state schools offer as good an education to pupils as private schools. There are some very good state schools and these schools attract a surplus of applicants.

[@peterdockerty8077]

The real equal opportunity should be that our education policy should be based around what Katherine does and has done for years. Ie giving kids a great education, learning experience, discipline, respect and lifelong education

[@lightweightben]

There should be no exemptions from VAT, but it should be capped at 10%. Why does a £2k jacket have to be VAT free?!

[@uk145]

Big public schools will be fine. More than enough demand, both domestic and international. Plus, they are the ones actually doing in-community charitable work, all that expense can now be scrapped if necessary. Some small ones will fail. True effects will take years to feed through into the state sector (parents are more likely not to start private than take kids out immediately part way through). The data will show this policy is a success.

[@chill_out_00]

Private schools aren’t banned. Just VAT is being implemented. This is free market economics guys. If you want an education in education look at Finland and let’s have a chat.

[@t5kcannon1]

What on Earth are you on about? Badly considered tax policies distort market incentives; can you at least understand that? I guess not.

[@magicalwishlist6616]

Foolish analysis. many poor parents struggle to send their children to these schools. Public education is poor to bad in lower economic areas.

[@einseitig3391]

The British electorate is so poorly served by our first past the post system with only two alternatives to vote for. The Conservatives practice the discredited 'trickle-down' economics which is implied with every utterance of 'belief in lower taxes or tax cuts' and Labour's politics of envy however disguised as 'wealth re-distribution' or 'fairer taxes'. This application of VAT in January is just their raking up of old class issues. We can see the politics of envy at their worst with the removal of the winter fuel allowance with probably more to come in the budget. It leaves people who would be inclined to listen to Labour suspicious. Currently after just a few months of power they appear tin-eared, unable to admit when they are wrong, becoming self-righteous and vindictive. They proclaimed a £22bn shortfall but refuse to publish details. Why? The EU offer free movement for 18-30 year olds but Starmer, sounding like the Conservatives, say they breach Labour's red-lines. It is quite tedious to listening to. Labour under Corbyn let down the country during the Brexit debate by holding on to his own anti-EU prejudices, now with project Brexit floundering Starmer has his own agenda. I hope GB Energy is a real success despite Labour placing a German in charge. Were the roles reversed a Brit would never lead such a German entity. But we need pragmatism and lots of well paid blue collar jobs. The Tories were seen to be party (i.e. me) first and country thereafter. I would fear it is a trait of the Labour party too.

[@danielhornby5581]

Got to look the spending in state schools as well. This problem is endemic now we have academies run by trusts which are wasting extraordinary amounts of money.

[@pauljermyn5909]

Paul is what Labour should be, his first consideration is always how it will affect British working class and low income families and British pensioners, everything else comes after.

[@lks6248]

This is not the way to fix life/career inequality. Tackle that at university entrance level so that families can’t buy their way into future privilege. E.g the best universities should be instructed to recruit students in a way that reflects the make up of the population and to recruit on the basis of evidence of potential. That means that an A grade gained by a kid from a prestigious fee paying school is worth no more than a B grade from a kid who went to a run of the mill comprehensive. We already have ring fenced places for multiple deprivation postcodes so this is not a new idea. We should NOT have a country and institutions run only by people whose parents were wealthy enough to buy the privilege.

[@justinmalinowski]

“Contribution to society” is not a valid claim for a place on the “moral high ground”. Freedom from taxation is.

[@peterhalliday6492]

In a nutshell....if you've got the money to send your kid(s) to a private school and are claiming to be struggling then it shows you don't really know what it means to be financially struggling...sigh

[@Richard-fm1cx]

Emberry should know that banks are owned by shareholders, and it is shareholders who ultimately pay the taxes, the “bank” is just the conduit. So when he says tax the banks what he is really meaning is tax the shareholders Businesses pay corporation tax and the last few years have not been “windfalls” they have been a return to normal rates after too many years of artificially low rates. Socialists are all the same, great spenders of other people’s money.

[@hughiemg2]

Banks like all large corporations are masters at minimising the amount of corporation tax they pay. The corporation tax rate is one thing, the allowable profit it gets charged against wholly separate

[@Richard-fm1cx]

@@hughiemg2 does not take away from the fact that it is shareholders that pay.

[@hughiemg2]

@@Richard-fm1cx No, its the customers who pay the taxes seeing as they are the original source of the profits. Its not the job of government to provide a shareholder return.

[@DaveSmith-s6e]

I work as an engineer and would more than happily move to become a teacher in maths and comp sci after over a decade in the private sector. What is stopping me is reducing my pay down to 1/5 of what I am currently on during the training period, then once I’m trained only being able to get up to 1/3 of what I’m on now when fully trained. If Kier wants more teachers he needs to pony up the cash, as paying a teacher the equivalent of the national average wage is a joke. Especially when MPs are paid double.

[@jdg9999]

Yep, don't even need to raise the education budget, just redirect money spent on admin etc straight to paying teachers a much higher salaries.

[@DaveSmith-s6e]

@@BobSmith-fx9sz I’d happily sign up to a scheme that allows for a progressive transition to teaching. And I dont want to be paid the same. I fully accept that as a teacher in the public sector you don’t get the same pay packet. The issue is that the pay for a maths teacher is so so low. Tbh I’d like the company I work for to be incentivised to send engineers into schools, and also use it as a pathway for kids to move out of school and into work through vocational programs such as CAD courses that don’t require a uni degree. Also I now have 2 friends who studied sport at uni, wanted to become PE teachers, have no knowledge of science based subjects, yet are a maths and physics teachers respectfully because of the shortages. I like both these people a lot, but they shouldnt be in the jobs they are.

[@weeksy79]

I don’t know where this misconception comes from that teachers are underpaid. This isn’t America, average teachers salaries are above national average income. You would have to be on a WHOPPING salary currently for your actual take home pay to be reduced by two thirds.

[@weeksy79]

@@jdg9999teacher salaries are far greater than back office staff salaries, not sure where you got this from.

[@DaveSmith-s6e]

@@weeksy79 yeah, so I know my own finances. And I know how much my 2 mates I referenced above get paid. National average wage. 34k a year. Salary for a public sector maths teacher in my area. 35k a year. Apprenticeship wage for an electronics engineer fresh out of Uni. 32k, rising to 65/70k with 3-5 years experience. Then double that again if you are setup independently, which I encourage all young engineers to do after 5 years because we have an engineer shortage in the country so there no issue finding work. Like I’ve also said. I’m not expecting to match my current income. But I’m not going to step down and start earning less than a 21 year old just entering the private sector with exactly the same qualifications as myself, but without the decade of industry experience behind them.

[@jbug884]

I’m proud I can afford the VAT on school fees, it’s cleared out all the people that can’t afford private education! If they wanted to put 50% on, that’s fine too because I’m stinking rich! If that triggered you, you can see why Labour is so wrong by adding VAT on school fees. The super rich simply won’t be affected!

[@Trevor_Austin]

Politics of envy gives rise to unpleasant policies which are a the backbone of Labour policies. Yes, there are some rich odious people who can afford to send their children to private (ie Public) schools and deserve to be taxed. At the same time there are many small, lesser known private schools and many other specialist schools who cater for children with special needs. But this is a Labour government. So sod you, I’m off to Taylor Swift’s concert.

[@MarcusCorbett]

Are those 'rich odious people'not already taxed ?

[@hughiemg2]

​@@MarcusCorbettthe effective rate of tax on the very wealthy is a whole other debate!

[@Truthseeker6859]

State education is woefully ineffective and should be defunded.

[@kevinrobb86]

Most kids given the choice of going to a different school from their friends would say no and if people want to send their kids to private school then they obviously think that it will benefit their kids but at the end of the day no matter what school you go to only the brightest will shine

[@johncooke8173]

This policy is only possible because we Brexitted, because this is the removal of a tax relief on education services under EU law, not the increase of tax on pupils or their parents. So if the school passes on the Brexit benefit take it up with the school because they should be able to absorb the removal of relief from profits and if they don’t have profits you should probably ask why when they charge so much and often pay so little, just saying!

[@nazb1982]

Ideally you wouldn’t have private schools at all like many other countries. If the rich are forced to attend the same schools as everybody else maybe they will learn some compassion and will also have a vested interest in making sure the state schools are good.

[@charnalking]

astro turf and swimming pools are actually probably the best mental health investment state schools could make.

[@denzel270]

This lie keeps getting repeated. Private schools do not get a tax break, no education for under 18's is taxed - a requirement when entering the common market. So, as Stammer is a barrister, can he tell us how it will work where he can tax one group of children - based upon the politics of spite and envy, but not another? How will this work in law? It sounds incredibly complex and very unfair. Also, their ridiculous, spiteful policy is based upon the fact the parents they will now tax, will stay using private schools. They may not afford to and will move to state education, then once a school looses so many, it may no t be economically viable, so will have to close, meaning more children enter the state sector putting huge pressure on it. Beyond stupid. The hypocrisy of it is also staggering. Stammer, privately educated, Abbot and Thornberry both educated their children privately, despite obviously being anti private education.