How A Spectacular Piece Of Pedantry Created An International Enclave

The Pyrenees mountain range has divided Spain and France for centuries, with Spain on the south side, and France on the north. But why is there one strange little blob of Spain over on the French side? I visited the historic enclave of Llivia and discovered the spectacularly pedantic reason behind its existence...
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New York Times article with more detail on the story - www.nytimes.com/2017/10/24/wo...
How Does France's "Northern Catalonia" Feel About Independence? -
www.thelocal.fr/20171009/how-...

[@radagastwiz]

Where does a pedant get their water? From a well, actually.

[@SteveWhisenhant]

This comment wins the internet for today.

[@Milamberinx]

Well, actually, I'm a pedant and I get my water from a reservoir. ...sorry... if a pedant can't pedant a pedant joke what can a pedant pedant?

[@AlMcpherson79]

@@Milamberinx Well, Actually a well is actually a form of reservoir so well, actually is actually very well a good answer, actually.

[@t.wcharles2171]

I mostly get mine from a tap actually.

[@The-Cat]

Well actually, Catalonia has a lot of similarities to the Belgian Flanders VS Wallonia issue but actually it doesnt have any similarities but I just like to correct something by interrupting myself and others with a well placed "well actually" segway into another fact or in my case a made up fact that actually isn't a fact if it were to be made up. So now I've actually forgotten where I was going with this so i'll just start or continue by saying, Well actually, i'm not starting anything sensible yet other than mumbling in a digital format well actually it isn't mumbling in a digital format since mumbling cannot be preceived in any other format than the vocal way of communicating, well actually once could describe a sentence to be expressed in a mumbling characterised way as one would do in a novel or story telling medium it is also to describe it in sign language towards deaf people well actually also braile for the blind well actually mumbling is an expression that belongs to what might also describe as body language well actually no it is a tone of speach rather than body language well actually there are specific tell-tale body languages that do link directly and specifically to mumblind well actually ithere arent any since mumbling is technically part of articulation rather than body language well actually i'm not a speech therapist or even a speech expert although actually I dont need to be one to actually make an accurate statement or assesment of the actual topic at hand here. Well actually to enforce my legitimacy of the knowledge i'm sharing i actually could use a degree of some sort to boost up the consifdence of what i'm saying well actually that isn't correct because even Bill gates dropped out of school but he could use his own business skills to get his ideas to prove his skills well actually he already had rich friends and born in the right time so it actually has a lot to do with luck. Well actually he did have great ideas but if a black man had that same idea in that same timeframe i dont think people would give him a chance unless it was sold by a white man well actually i dont know that that's just an assumption but actually the likelyhood of what I'm saying might be right speaks for itself if one does the time to take a look through historical facts it isn't even that long ago in our lifetime that these things are real well actually even just in the 90's shit was still bad between races apartheid fell only in the 90's mordern day segregation is was real and still is today 2023 well actually it has never ended because Israel still enforces apartheid well actually modern day appartheid because it's backed by USA and actually everyone knows about it but turns a blind eye because there's no financial incentive to come to speak up anbd stand up for Palestina wella ctually there are people who do but they get drowned by the media as if they dont exist. well actually i'm getting kind of carried away so i should actually get back at the topic at hand and actually get to the root of Catalonia vs Spains well actually it shouldnt be about Catalonia VS spain since this is a video about the Spanish enclave in France well actually maybe I should say its the Catalonian enclave in France well actually I should remain with the official national designation which is the Spanish enclave in France but I refuse to conform to the masses of geopolitics well actually I dont even know what the citizens themnselves on the enclave call themselves cause they might not even consider themselsves French or Spanish well actually French or Catalonia well actually they mght be sovreighn WILL IN THE BLANK of whatever they actually want to name themselves. Well actually they might want to try a tall glass of sovreign tears of Bregret freshly exported from the UK because they're in dire need to have some sort of trade deals LOL well actually the UK claim that the EU needs them more than they need to EU but looking at growth the UK is doing the worst of (even worse than Russia) out of the G8 wella actually that isn't supposed to be funny but it actually is because they wanted their "sovreignity" so bad now they have to enjoy the tears that flow from is well actually do note that they never lost their sovreignity when they were in the EU union they just used that as a slogan for dumb members of the public to fall for and as you can actually see the result more than half the country is in fact sumb enough to fall for it well actually they arent dumb they were just missled, one cant expect a ocmmon citizen to understand economics and all kinds of political treaties etc to make the right choices, that's actually the job of the goverment so actually the government shouldn't have had a referendumg in the first place without having all the facts and studies done before hand well actually its too late for all that anyway and actually my fingers are getting quite numb but well actually i've got a mechanical keyboard and it types so yummy well actually it's well over 5 years old now but it still taps and ticks away as if it wree still new still so addictive to just keep going well actually I do unplug all the keys and give it a good cleaning cause my bloody god does it get hairy in between the keys after a year. well actually sometimes even after only 6 months. I guess that's normal when you've got 3 cats in the house. Well actually it's not just the cats i've got quite long hair myself and I do comb it while sitting here sometimes well actually most of the times well actually I dont even know I got to this topic about my hair. well actually I do know but that's only because I took a minute to have a drink before I send this comment off ontop the internet well actually I do wonder if anyone would even bother to read through this LOL, well actually there's always one weirdo lurking on youtube, actually I'm talking about myself so if you're reading this mister or misses stranger, you and me are both weirdos and I commend you with standing ovation for pushing through this difficult read. I intentionally didnt add paragraphs so that this block of soviet inspired intimidation would scare off anyone from reading through it well actually it's not even soviet anything because i never really know what the fuck soviet inspiration would look like well actually i do but not in literature. Oh crap I forgot what I was banging on about or what i was actually trying to say hang on let me read back what I was saying... Ah yet intimidating block of text well actually it shouldn't be too intimidating but it definitly would discourage anyone from readying this on a bloody smartphone LOL well actually I shouldn't make assumptions like this because I actually dont know for a fact if I am right but i'm almost 99.99% sure nobody would get this far well actually the chance for anyone getting this far is even smaller because this is an OLD video so haha i'm doing all this for nothing. Well actually I wasted some minutes of my life typisch text nobody will ever read well actually at least my existence will be marked into the history of the internet and actually my fingers are getting a good workout today cause next week i'll be using these fingers on a weekend with my ex at a hotel room lol no joke this is actually going to happen s-x with the ex well actually she wants to get back with me but i'm not interested in getting back with her cause she's got 2 kids and i'm not planning on taking care of kids that arent mine. She knows it but I guess i've actually got magic in the bedroom so she's down for that lol anyway that's actually too much information i'm giving away holy hell whomever is readying this definitly got more than what they bargained for and actually i'm actually getting tired now. well actually not really but i think i should stop typing. Enjoy life you know, well actually I already am but i mean do something productive now that my boring work from home day is over lol well actually it was over an hour ago well actually I know i'm gonna go ahead and plan a vacation on Catalonia or should I say Spain?

[@bjornkeizers]

"The enclave created out of sheer pedantry" Hey gang, I know where the next meetup should be :D

[@MrNicoJac]

I should learn not-Español and move 😍

[@JasperJanssen]

Where is the highest point?

[@thierryx84]

@@JasperJanssen is it a crossover between Tim and Geography Now channels?

[@JoTheBaer]

Germany enters the chat

[@captaincrash9286]

*Meeting

[@eritain]

Well actually, I don't know about things down at the west end of Europe, but in central and eastern Europe, being a town vs a village was an important legal distinction since the Middle Ages. A town had rights like holding a regular market (with the town's merchants and artisans having preferential or sole rights to sell in it), charging tolls on the roads, fortifying with a city wall, and a local legal system with municipal courts and a legislative council. Today, centuries later, city histories still make a point of noting the year that the town rights were granted.

[@jmiquelmb]

Yes, that happened in Spain and Catalunya too. In fact I'm Catalan and my town was originally a medieval village that got a royal permit to establish a weekly market, which made it into what it is today.

[@apveening]

The same also happened in the Netherlands and most cities also still make a point of noting the year. There is also an annual event (weather circumstances permitting) that is named for the eleven cities it passes, the Elfstedentocht: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfstedentocht

[@NavaSDMB]

In Spain which rights were granted depending on the classification varied by realm and even from place to place. You said "at the west end of Europe" and I said "in Spain", but the fact is that there were different rights granted to "any place classified as _ciudad_ in Leon, older than the Kingdom of Leon" and "a place founded by the Queen consort of Navarre (and granted a specific set of rights, different from those of any other places founded by the same lady)".

[@pablojo5611]

Best example, Madrid is not a town or a city, it's a Villa (village)

[@bobfg3130]

It happened in the West too.

[@YetAnotherGeorgeth]

“Well strap in because a British person is going to talk about a referendum!” Oh God, you’ve met my dad, haven’t you!

[@a4yster]

Yall brexited. Come to peace with that already.

[@johnmccallum8512]

@@a4yster Don't you know that some people can hold a grudge till it dies of oldage several times over?

[@a4yster]

@@johnmccallum8512 I sure thing do as I hold it myself.

[@GreRe9]

@@a4yster I thought the sensitive bit is that Scottland isn't allowd to hold another referendum to leave the UK and rejoin the EU because "the [British/European] union is stronger together"

[@a4yster]

@@GreRe9 I'd never picture myself being pro-independence of scottland, NI and even wales. But here I'm. =(

[@qwertyTRiG]

On a family holiday, we drove across the border from France to Spain near Llivia (but not into Llivia itself). The sign on the border was spray painted over: instead of France to the north and Espania to the south, it said Catalunya, both ways.

[@desanipt]

Incredible! I've seen "Galiza" beeing painted over "España" here on the border, in Portugal. But Catalunya on both sides hits another level hahah

[@Odisher7]

@@desanipt That's right, after gaining independence, we are independing the whole occitan region into the new country. The idea is to eventually independ the whole world.

[@desanipt]

@@Odisher7 someone should create a Castilian independence movement 😂😂

[@HenryLoenwind]

@@Odisher7 After I have united the whole world under my rule, I will allow all those independency-loving regions to form their own administrative districts. So support my conquest!

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

"Wait, now entering Catalonia? But it says I've just left it!"

[@bangscutter]

When travelling around the Schengen area, it's easy to forget that in other parts of the world, enclaves like this are a nightmare to traverse. It's not uncommon for residents to be stuck because of bureaucratic red tapes.

[@cr10001]

I *love* Schengen! There's nothing makes me so happy as the sight of a closed and disused Customs post. :)

[@untruelie2640]

@@cr10001 Yeah, but especially if you drive across the former german-german border aka the iron curtain. The border checkpoints are closed and the walls and fences are gone, but it is still a somewhat chilling experience.

[@starlinguk]

Driving the coastal road in Croatia is fun. At some point, it turns into Bosnia and then back into Croatia. And since Bosnia isn't part of the EU, there are queues galore.

[@ilyakogan]

@@starlinguk It's not because Bosnia is not in the EU. It's because Bosnia is not in Schengen.

[@Tjalve70]

In the beginning of the pandemic, I had just entered Spain from Morocco, 2 days before the border closed. And I had to drive up from southern Spain to Norway, just as Europe was closing down. I had never properly experienced borders in Europe before. And it was quite interesting travelling, and not knowing whether the next border was going to be open or closed.

[@jporrasedit]

Well Actually... in Spain the title of "villa" was a rather important one because it granted "fueros", that is, rights and laws particular to each villa. One root of independence sentiment in Spain was the abolishment of most fueros when the much more centralist (and french) Bourbon family got the throne, but back when the treaty was signed in was pretty matter of factly for a spaniard; you can't just stripe a villa off it's fueros and give it away to someone else. Much less to a frenchman

[@ronaldderooij1774]

...and that is called pedantry!😀

[@jporrasedit]

@@ronaldderooij1774 only if you consider those fueros a minor issue.

[@ronaldderooij1774]

@@jporrasedit Only in the eyes of a pedantic person, they would be a major issue, haha, thanks for the laugh. I needed that!

[@Gepap3]

@@ronaldderooij1774 Local sovereignty is actually a huge issue everywhere.

[@magnushultgrenhtc]

@@Gepap3 Yep. A Swedish municipality, even the ones with population 1,500 or so, has fiscal independence. Ever heard of Swedish taxes? The 290 municipalities collect most of that money. Not to be messed with.

[@calmeilles]

When I first visited the area as a kid on holiday, Franco was still in power in Spain and the "neutral road" was - at least in theory - patrolled. French people and vehicles could cross it at two points, the N20 next to the rail tracks and the D30, but not turn onto it. Spanish vehicles (no pedestrians allowed) could travel it but were not permitted to turn off into France. To get to Llivia as Brit tourists we first had to cross the border at Bourg-Madame / Puigcerdà and take the neutral road. But we were permitted to leave direct to France via the road to Saillagouse. Naturally the locals were not inclined to take any notice of the vagaries of international diplomacy and as long as neither Gendarmes nor Guardia Civil were in sight did whatever they found most convenient. All controls seemed to vanish pretty soon after Spain joined the EC in 1986 even though it wasn't formally done away with for another decade.

[@MrPlannery]

Having visited this place accidentally in 2017, I wondered this exact thing (ie: how it managed under Franco). So thanks for enlightening me!

[@AngelinaJolie734]

And during a long time, on this road, there was a "war of stops" because there is a french road who cross it. The two countries wanted to have the priority on their road. Today, this war has been solved by making a road interchange.

[@trcon]

Omg, the cover of the old BBC election intro music when talking about the referendum is such an obscure reference I love it!

[@tinrobot1746]

In a world that has gone literally mad I am pleased that we get some sane pedantry from Tim. Thanks Tim.

[@stickoutofthemud]

“That is the sort of pedantry up with which I shall not put.”

[@KroK013]

I've never felt so called out as I have by the comment, "maybe YOU'RE a pedant and you want to make a pilgrimage to the motherland." Tim, you know me too well.

[@vacuumdiagram]

Same! 🤣😎

[@matthewzenofmatthew4415]

Well actually, it is as valid a reason to go as any other. Count me in on this pilgrimage.

[@gerdforster883]

Well, actually, Llivia is the result of pedantry. So the motherland of pedantry would have to be wherever this feat of pedantry was thought up in the first place. I.e. some beaurocrat's office in the royal palace.

[@nirfz]

@@gerdforster883 One could argue that the spanish Habsburgs originated in austria, and if we are more pedantic then the austrian Habsburgs originated in switzerland. So the motherland of pedantry in this case then would have to be switzerland.

[@kauemoura]

Speaking of pedantry, as I work for the Belgian railways, I'm always afraid when I make an announcement in a language which isn't necessarily the official one of the area where I am, because sometimes I know that there will be tourists or people who will go to another region and do not necessarily understand the local languages, and because many cities have different names in Dutch and French. So far nobody has complained, but there's always a chance someone will.

[@mankepoot9440]

But in what language will they complain? And is it the right language for your local complaints office. And what happens when this complaint is transferred to a national complaints office? So many ways to lose a complaint in the proces, you have nothing to worry about.

[@kauemoura]

@@mankepoot9440 Officially, train announcements have to happen in the local language. Dutch in Flanders, French in Wallonia, both in Brussels (the agent has to use the language in which he was hired first), for the airport we have the option of saying it in Dutch only, because it is in Flanders, or we have to do it in all three national languages+English, starting in Dutch. Officially, if one is to make an announcement in French in Flanders, for instance, the one in German and the one in English would have to be used as well. German is the tricky one, because only 0.7% of the population speaks it. So it's a pain sometimes. Of course, it's not often that a language has to be used out of its region, but sometimes, when there's a big station close to a linguistic border, it can be tricky.

[@kauemoura]

@@mankepoot9440 Customer service is done in French, Dutch, and probably English (I just noticed I forgot to answer the question).

[@abibu_chan]

Is there not an automated system? Or is there an automated system and it just breaks sometimes. In Massachusetts, we have automated announcements, but sometimes they don't work so the train crew will shout the name of the next station

[@atraindriver]

@@kauemoura Whilst we don't currently have the legal issues with language in the UK that the Belgian Railways do (although some people would say the Welsh government are doing their best to create them), you might be utterly unsurprised to learn that as a guard on British Rail I was once reported for making an announcement in German (for the benefit of a tourist whose English was rather poor) as well as English on the 11th November. Apparently the complaint was that I was being disrespectful to the war dead by speaking in German on Remembrance Day. :-/

[@MrGreatplum]

Who doesn’t love a spectacular piece of pedantry? Another excellent video of another enclave - are there any others you have yet to visit in Europe?

[@TheTimTraveller]

Oh loads! I haven't even been to Baarle-Hertog yet...

[@MrGreatplum]

@@TheTimTraveller ah yes, that’s one (or several!) to go to!

[@heysemberthkingdom-brunel5041]

@@TheTimTraveller Did you know that (well before they started messing with it again recently out of dumb populism) the "Büsingen am Hochrhein" license plate was Germany's rarest? It's a German enclave inside Switzerland with all that that entails... Oh and don't get me started on Steinstücken, a piece of (West) Berlin surrounded on all sides by Potsdam and containing a road (or was it a railroad?) with an "above this ours, beneath this is yours" border arrangement for a while...

[@bertdaniels]

@@TheTimTraveller Hey Tim, do it in Summer when the regulations ease up and we could do a fan meet up?

[@rjs_698]

@@heysemberthkingdom-brunel5041 Tim's already done a video about Büsingen...

[@danielbarreiro8228]

A friend of mine once told me his father, living in Barcelona, used to go skiing in the Pyrenees, quite often to Llivia. He told him that during WWII the neutral road was fenced on both sides and he saw Nazi soldiers patrolling on the other side of the fence.

[@towaritch]

German soldiers you mean.Most of them were not Nazis save the SS of course.

[@harbl99]

Exclaves and pedantry. Can't say Tim doesn't know his audience.

[@vaclav_fejt]

Like that piece of India, which was in Bangladesh, which was in India, which was in Bangladesh, which was in India, which was insane-wait, wrong channel.

[@emjackson2289]

It's a pedant-strian area

[@otiliojose7487]

"Well, Actually... As a Geography teacher, I was curious about this place and i went there last summer and some of the locals told me "No Brexit here!" "Leave us alone!, No politics". The impression they gave me was completely different from the referendum results. (maybe it was from the beers we had...) Greetings from Portugal!

[@JulianOShea]

Nice work, Tim! - Always good to understand the story behind these unusual shapes on a map.

[@DandamanV]

I know I shouldn't be surprised to see you in this comments section, but I am! Love your videos, Julian!

[@fernbedek6302]

“One again it’s time to talk about the 1659 treaty between France and Spain”. An excellent phrase to hear.

[@fernbedek6302]

And, as a Canadian, I know referendums can be a mess.

[@JdeBP]

It's a cue for another piece of pedantry, though. It's not in fact the 1659 treaty that was the pedantry. It was the November 1660 Llivia Accord, which M. Traveller won't find a handy Wikipedia article for screenshotting, because it is a dangling hyperlink in the Wikipedia article on bishop Hyacinthe Serroni.

[@calmeilles]

@@JdeBP It dangles in the English version but not in the French where it leads to fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trait%C3%A9_de_Ll%C3%ADvia There ought to be a metaphor in that. 😀

[@PMA65537]

You can often tell when something was a careless rushed job before 5pm.

[@the_cheese]

A KZbin video about pedantry? Between the French and Spanish?!? IN CATALUNYA??!!?? I durn near sprained my clicking finger clicking on this video to watch it first today. Thanks for another awesome video, Tim!

[@jeandanielodonnncada]

As a Québécois viewer I have great interest in pedantic debates between two countries about what country one is in, while flying a totally different flag anyway.

[@cr10001]

The "International railway line" Tim mentions is not so much one line, as two separate ones that meet at Latour de Carol (La Tor du Querol), just north of Puigcerda. But it is quite a spectacular line to travel on from Barcelona over the southern divide of the Pyrenees. In fact, at Latour de Carol has a magnificent station where THREE different railway gauges and three different electrification systems meet. The SNCF standard gauge from Toulouse, the Rodalies de Catalunya Spanish gauge from Barcelona, and the SNCF metre gauge 'Train Jaune' to Villefranche and Perpignan. The Train Jaune actually winds around three sides of the Llivia enclave without actually venturing onto Llivian soil at any point. I'm sure Tim must have made a video on it (or will be about to...) Also a stop for the 1 Euro Bus - you can travel all the way from Latour to Perpignan (and other routes in the region) for one Euro.

[@newq]

Ah! Now THIS kind of geographical/transit trivia is what I live for. Thank you!

[@franc9111]

cr01 Actually I've never travelled on the Train Jaune because I think it's far too expensive. Mind you, you have to take care when driving along the road that winds its way up from Perpignan, as it's the main road into Andorra for all those dutyfree addicts. Their driving can be atrocious.

[@cr10001]

@@franc9111 Well currently special-offer tickets are 5 euros ( 10 euro return ) and if I was in Europe I'd jump at the chance. Not as big a bargain as the 1 Euro bus, but it is a unique little railway. I can't remember the regular fare but as I recall it wasn't out of line with other tourist-oriented trips.

[@robertfoulkes1832]

​​​@@franc9111I travelled on the Petit Train Jaune a few years ago, although only from Villefranche de Conflent to Font Romeu and back. (The SNCF line from Perpignan to V de C is standard gauge and operated quite separately from the Train Jaune service.) It's a spectacular ride and well worth the cost IMO. Just be warned, if you end up travelling in one of the open carriages on a sunny day you're at risk of serious sunburn! Also, Villefranche is a charming walled town with plenty to see and do.

[@ZGryphon]

I don't think I'll ever get tired of the away-from-microphone-aside joke format. "Do we _have_ insurance?"

[@hexgraphica]

Got a similar one near Milan. Once upon a time the province of Milan was very extensive, going from those of Bergamo, Como and Lecco down to those of Pavia and Cremona. In 1992 the province of Lodi was created, but San Colombano al Lambro town voted against it so it's effectively a Milan exclave. To the point it's now officially part of the Metropolitan city of Milan despite being some 40km outside the city border

[@Perririri]

#LodiNJ

[@jmiquelmb]

Any reason why they wanted to remain Milanese?

[@DanieleCavallotti]

@@jmiquelmb Wine San Colombano al Lambro is a wine making territory, they were the only one in Milan Province, this is quite useful and more appealing than being a Lodi winemaker

[@TravelSoGood]

Well actually, we visited there a few years ago after a trip to Andorra. Beautiful town, but all we did was climb the hill to the ruined fort. I'm surprise you also didn't climb to the highest point in Llivia!

[@ForeverNeverwhere1]

Well , actually, we stayed in a gite, or whatever the feck it was called in Spanish, 16 or 17 years ago, on a trip to Andorra. Stop stealing my holidays. On that note, I want Tim to visit Pas de la Casa and find something nice to say, I couldn't.

[@firesurfer]

@@ForeverNeverwhere1 Wiki sez the night life is cool. So it has that. The entire town is for skiing, what more do you want?

[@MrNicoJac]

@Fran and Jay: Not to be a pedant or anything, but there's a difference between "I'm surprised *you also* didn't climb to the highest point" and "I'm surprised you didn't *also climb* to the highest point" 🙊

[@keesvrins8410]

Well, actually, There is not much prove that Tim was really at Llivia at all! I saw only one shot. Could be deepfake. ;)

[@VedranRodic433]

Channels and videos like these, helped me pull through last two years of isolation and pandemic. Thank you from the bottom of my heart and as you say "will see you soon" in your next videos. Thank you Tim.

[@hatchsp]

I’ve been to Llivia! I spent two nights there during a bike trip in 2014. We spent a day cycling around the French side of the Pyrenees in the Mont Louis area and that is the only time I’ve ever been to France. Well, actually… I suppose I was in France on arrival day when I biked into Llivia from Puigcerda and on departure day when I biked from Llivia to Ripoll. So I’ve been in France three times in three consecutive days, but never stayed overnight in France and have not returned since 2014. Oh and great video.

[@marimarianations9355]

Hey, I'm a local! I grew up in Cerdanya and attended high school in Puigcerdà. Quite a lot of my classmates live there (Llívia) and in the neighboring towns, like Bourg-Madame. Sometimes we'd hang out in the fields and before we realized we had crossed the borders multiple times. Honestly we just cross that border all the time like it's nothing, just a few weeks ago my driving lesson consisted of driving all the way to Llívia and then come back to my town in Spanish Cerdanya. That was thanks to the neutral status of that road, as I technically don't have a driving license yet. We locals also have a running joke that Llívia is the capital of the world, we call it "Llívia capital del món".

[@xangarabana]

Pues es curioso, porque yo fui a Masella a esquiar una semana, me pasé por Puigcerdà (asombrosamente bonito el pueblo) y no me mencionaron nada de Llívia

[@aftp6646]

Llivia, capital del Mon featured well in the tv show el Foraster.

[@marimarianations9355]

@@aftp6646 Yep, the hockey player they interviewed, Nacho, was my classmate in high school :)

[@aftp6646]

@@marimarianations9355 The world is small.

[@audreyb1269]

Interesting how during all my education in the french school system, no one ever brought up the fact we have a little enclave that is Spanish/Catalan on our territory. This is such a fascinating bit of History, thanks for sharing it with us Tim!

[@gamermapper]

They also don't talk that much about the entire fact or French Catalonia, or French Basque country, or even Occitania as a cultural region unfortunately

[@aftp6646]

@@gamermapper Effectively there is no border anymore. La Cerdanya has been restored. It's one of the few places where two countries share a major hospital (in Puigcerda) for what is now two countries but ultimately is still Catalan like it was before.

[@gamermapper]

@@aftp6646 On BOTH sides of the borders there's Catalans. Catalans in Spain, including this enclave, and Catalans in France.

[@aftp6646]

@@gamermapper Indeed. That why I said that taking away the border in la Cerdanya restored i to the way it was.

[@MyLateralThawts]

If it weren’t for Tim’s history lessons, I would have gone on thinking Europe’s borders were drawn along a route travelled by a drunk jester riding a unicycle.

[@hanswoast7]

Well, actually... :)

[@amirhalgal]

Well actually, the drunk jester love llivia so much he kept circling the town, thus the border

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

When people tell the story of Louis XIV and Felipe IV, nobody remembers the crucial role played by the drunk jester.

[@gazpachopolice7211]

Well actually... didn't they do something like that (minus the clown, and the unicycle, and the booze) in some Caribbean island? Ok they got two soldiers from the opposing colonial claimants to walk and the meeting point became the border. I think it's St Martin?

[@RealConstructor]

@@gazpachopolice7211 No it’s Sint Maarten (NL) and Saint Martin (F).

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

00:32 "Because have you ever looked at the border between Spain and France just east of Andorra and thought... What on earth is that? I mean, probably not, but I did, and now here we all are." Well, actually, I think it'd be more probable that we _have_ done that, knowing what this fanbase is like.

[@jmktf]

If an enclave is involved, you know it's gonna be a good one. 😅👍🏻

[@Hal10034]

Well, actually, that was excellent. Enclaves are fascinating. Have you ever thought of going to the Bangladesh-India border? Kind of far, I guess.

[@MrNicoJac]

Would be an amazing train ride though!

[@nicolek4076]

I thought a lot of that Relic of Empire had been largely resolved.

[@njdevilku1340]

Map Men have covered that messy border.

[@gazpachopolice7211]

They are gone now. Anyway the border was always heavily patrolled dur to illegal migration and cattle trafficking. So it isn't easy to travel as Europe's borders are

[@mukherjeesuniversum2665]

@@gazpachopolice7211 Except Dabagram, a Bangladeshi exclave in India.

[@darrenblois8495]

Another interesting "exclave / neutral road" situation is Basel-Mulhouse-Freiburg Euroairport. It lies in French territory but serves the Swiss city of Basel. When you get off a plane, you decide which country you want to enter. If you choose Switzerland, there is a dedicated customs road linking the airport directly to the Swiss border. On this road, you are in France legally, but in Switzerland for customs and immigration purposes. Oh, and it also serves the German city of Freiburg, but there are no special arrangements there (presumably because both France and Germany are in the EU). That would make an interesting video!

[@testman9541]

Same thing in Geneva airport for the French side of the Geneva airport 😉

[@gamermapper]

I've visited this, this did have a border inside the airport (I lived in Saint Louis BTW)

[@isilder]

When Switzerland joining the Schengen Treaty in March 2009, the air side was rearranged to include a Schengen and non-Schengen zone.

[@sy_chu]

Well actually, the slightly higher percentage of those voting yes in the 2017 referendum in Llivia (ie 95%) doesn’t suggest that support of Catalan independence in Llivia is overwhelmingly higher. Rather, we should be looking at the voting / turn-out rate over the entire electorate (and whether the voting rate in Llivia is substantially higher than the rest of Catalonia) - as you suggest, those that did not support independence simply didn’t vote.

[@rrn7689]

I did a comment about this: ""561 votes out of 591 voted in Llivia for Independence, but the total number of people who can vote in Llivia is 1100...". About a 51% of the total census in one of the most pro-independence provinces of Catalonia and after 11 years of continued propaganda paid with public money, it seems to me a dubious success.

[@Hoeni2000]

Excellent rendition of "War" at 2:00 - your choice of songs to cover in your videos is always amazing :)

[@tommykl]

And Andrew W.K.'s Party Hard towards the end!

[@sokonek1]

Didn’t he also have a piano version of Arthur, the BBC’s election theme when he was talking about the Catalan independence referendum

[@zhuravlik26]

You won't believe, but I was browsing curious places in the Pyrenees for my next vacation, and added Llivia to my list, and that was 2 minutes before you published your video. :) Thanks for the video, now I have a story with it.

[@SuperTimItaly]

KZbin algorithm is getting better and better: from simply suggesting you a video you might like to actually generate one :D

[@zhuravlik26]

I was already subscribed. So not the algorithms of KZbin but a sheer Providence, forcing me to go to that part of the world for the next holidays. xD

[@pere_gin]

It really is a nice town, even though it isn't very big, you should definitely go up the castle hill, it only takes around 30 minutes if I remember correctly!

[@franc9111]

When I was there a few years back, the capital of Cerdagne/Cerda was considered to be Puig Cerda, just as much as by the residents on the French side of the border as their fellow Catalans on the other side. This was very much a problem during the Franco era. We had a fantastic time there, the mountain walks up to the Carlit and beyond reminded me of Scotland and the fêtes in the villages and all the various hot springs that you can bathe in are all worth it.There are some interesting stories about members of the Guarda Civil standing side by side with French Gendarmes dealing with what traffic there was on the 'international road' between the frontier and Llivia. They both pretended not to understand each other's language, but of course they obviously did. (Not long ago a film came out about a similarly amusing situation on the Belgian/French border and quite often in the past I've found myself going over to see Flemish police who didn't want to communicate with their French counterparts, but I digress). One local family told me about a son of theirs who got lost in the fog on the border and went down on the southern side, but who had no problem finding cousins there willing to put him up for a night or two. It is possible to take a train that goes across the border and then change to the line that goes down to Barcelona, but it takes ages to get there.

[@framegrace1]

Puigcerda is still considered the capital of the whole region, In fact, the hospital is shared for both sides, as is the biggest medical center in the area. It's part of an ongoing experiment on trying to create a "Multi national" county. Not sure but, it may be the first place in the world when something like this is being attempted.

[@gamermapper]

Aren't there Catalans on both sides?

[@franc9111]

@@gamermapper Yes of course there are, but that didn't stop Louis XIV and his ministers blatently disregarding that small fact and ever since the two respective governments have carried on in much the same manner. What is the Citadel in Perpignan/Perpinya called, I wonder? Mind you, I do seem to remember calling the town hall there once and being immediately greeted in Catalan (surely some mistake as they say in Private Eye). Andorra got off lucky, if you ask me. (Don't mention the Basques). NB Roussillon no longer exists, it's now part of Occitania.

[@gamermapper]

@@franc9111 French chauvinism is horrible but it doesn't change the fact that there's Catalans on both sides. From Perpinyà to Barcelona.

[@erichtomanek4739]

Well actually, As part of the negotiations, Jedi Knights and only Jedi Knights, are permitted to cross French territory into Llivia to maintain the peace.

[@rogerbond2244]

Finally, there is light at the end of a seemingly eternal tunnel. There is a glimmer of hope in my heart. One day, maybe soon, there will be a Tim Traveller video about a neutral road betwixt Spain and France. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur!

[@williambreazeale]

Well actually, to polish up my pedantry credentials, it runs between Spain and Spain.

[@hapticflapjack]

I am intrigued by this road. If it is neutral, who maintains it? Who deals with crime? (Please note I am not planning to commit any crimes on the road that may affect the road maintenance.)

[@LadyAnuB]

Pedantry, yes. Lawyerly, absolutely! The devil's in the details, the French said villages not inhabited areas with populations larger that a set amount of people in an area of such-and-such size. 😅

[@juststeve5542]

And the French want all EU legal documents to be drafted in French! Chercher le pop-corn!

[@LadyAnuB]

@@juststeve5542 Bring the translators France 😅

[@triviabuff5682]

Fanann tú go dtí go seasann muid go bhfuil siad dréachtaithe i nGaeilge!

[@LadyAnuB]

@@triviabuff5682 😂 (Yes, I used Google Translate for this and my first choice of languages worked! I assumed it was Irish and I was right. 😅)

[@JdeBP]

The French counterargument by Hyacinthe Serroni, missed here, was that the French had given the Spanish the word "villajes" in the first place, as used in the Spanish text of the treaty, so a "village" was whatever the French word meant.

[@radiohirsch]

I came for the trains and ships, and now enjoy the enclaves 😃. Best not transport related video so far!

[@zhuravlik26]

It's not that far from the terminus of "the Little Yellow Train", btw.

[@cr10001]

@@zhuravlik26 The Train Jaune actually winds around three sides of Llivia, but staying the French side of the border.

[@malteplath]

I'm looking forward to the episode about the neutral road. Llivia looks like a lovely holiday destination, so I would not let pedants stand in my way... 🙂

[@RicoV1989]

Well, actually I am very much looking forward to the bonus video! I definately hope you will make that one! I stumbled across that story when I was creating an online Pubquiz to play with my friends during lockdown when the pubs themselves were closed. As I am always intrigued by borders, enclaves and those kind of things, it was a nice story to read and so I also very much enjoyed this video to learn more about Llivia itself!

[@ahoj7720]

Thank you! I love enclaves. Interesting the case of Cyprus, with British military enclaves and also a few "Turkish" enclaves disconnected from the "Turkish Republic of Cyprus"... About Llívia (Don't forget the accent!) every detail is interesting. For example, the road connecting "mainland" Spain to the enclave is National 154 for Spain and Départementale (Secondary) 68 for France. It is a "neutral" road. But it crosses the French National (Primary) 20 from Bourg-Madame to Ur. France placed stop signs at the crossing, giving right of way to French Nationale 20. Spain protested and modified the crossing to give right of way to their own road (there are no such thing as 4-way stops in Europe, which would have solved the case!) Finally, a viaduct was built in 1993, ending what is known as "the war of stops". Also, there is a piece of land disconnected from the enclave, called Pla de Bones Hores, which is French territory but is owned by Llívia... What I don't know are the whereabouts of Llívia during WW2. At the end of the Spanish Civil War, the Nationalists requested from France the permission to enter Llívia, which was granted by the Daladier government. But what happened during the German occupation of Southern France after 1942, while Spain was officially neutral and people tried to cross the Spanish border to escape the Germans, is unknown to me.

[@markjackson5806]

This must be a case where a neutral roundabout (roundabout pedants rally here) could have trumped the STOP pedants

[@AJGeeTV]

Interesting to see, thanks for making this video. I went to Llivia in 1988 during a European road tour and travelled on the small neutral road from mainland Spain to the enclave. There were no roads leading off into France, and if I remember rightly there was an overpass. Don't remember seeing any flags, or any people for that matter. It was a very quiet and sleepy town.

[@Saraseeksthompson0211]

Well actually, I’ve missed your videos so much! I’ve been rewatching them while working because they’re far more entertaining than anything I do at work. I learn more from this channel than I ever did in school. 😂

[@crazypickles8235]

I absolutely love this. This channel is so underrated! Thanks Tim!

[@oystamanza]

This is one of the very best videos on youtube. You've outdone yourself. Please never change.

[@TerminusVox]

Well actually, I'd love more videos about pedantry. I've a feeling that if this capital town of pedantry were more well connected to the transportation grid you might have found your new headquarters!

[@flaetsbnort]

Imagine if Llivia decides to take matters on its own hands and declares itself independent only so it can be part of Catalonia, and Spain can't send troops there

[@jc918a-32]

Catalonia is Spain

[@gamermapper]

@@jc918a-32 Perpinyà is Spain too? 😒

[@bongchambers5148]

Another great video Tim, thanks for uploading and looking forward to the next one.

[@TheUglyPrimadonna]

Great vid, as always! Thanks Tim

[@joanbennettnyc]

Your work is brilliant and your Monty Python inspired humor makes it all the better. Kudos to you.

[@rosiefay7283]

Another area near there, which is interesting in a geography vs borders sort of way, is the Aran Valley. Part of Spain, but on the north side of the Pyrenees. And to prove it, the river flows through France into the Atlantic.

[@zhuravlik26]

And it's officially trilingual! Thanks, added to my list of places to visit.

[@danielbarreiro8228]

Indeed, the Garonne river starts in the Vall d'Aran which, incidentally, means "valley of the valley" in a mix of two of the local languages. Anyway, long time ago, Vielha, the capital, didn't have a sewer system, they dumped all into the river. The locals were very happy to let the French deal with it. That changed on Spain's accession to the EU.

[@gamermapper]

Aran Valley is a part of Spanish Catalonia, but at the same time, culturally speaking, is part of the Occitan nation fo Gascony!

[@patchso]

Yet another absolutely brilliant video! I can’t get enough of these. Just the perfect balance of interesting geography trivia and humour. Keep up the great work Tim.

[@wesendreizehn6710]

4:05 this "whötte" is simply magnificent.

[@alexthewoo]

You've got to go to the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway, The Smallest Public Railway in the world, which runs to the Uks Only Desert. The line also was used by the army to defend the coast, when they fitted it with lewis guns! would be a very good video.

[@roseroserose588]

TIL that Dungeness is a desert! I had a tour of the power station with a university group a few years ago and it was a very impressive place, if a little bleak!

[@pjotrtje0NL]

Didn’t Tom Scott cover that already?

[@alexthewoo]

@@pjotrtje0NL no don't think so

[@Hi11is]

@@roseroserose588 It is not desert. 28 inches of rain annually exceeds the amount a desert receives by a considerable margin.

[@gchecosse]

@@pjotrtje0NL it was the Whitewicks I think

[@GeorgeVenturi]

Thank you France and Spain for providing Tim with such wonderful content. I thought Llivia was going to look architecturally different being in France and it just looks like any other town in the Spanish Pyrenees like ones in the province of Huesca.

[@kenibarwick]

Bravo sire, a tight piece of work on a set of perfect pub banter. Plus a stopover is now added to a future road trip

[@adrianrutterford762]

Wonderful video as ever. Thanks

[@Jurlande]

Do you know the Kleinwalsertal in Austria, which can only be visited by a street through Germany?

[@indask8]

Not an enclave, but "Le perthus" is also an interesting little town, with the main street split in two between France and Spain, And there's a lot of cheap alcohol or at least there used to, I haven't been there since a decade.

[@RadimBadsi]

There still is :)

[@k.r.baylor8825]

It's not close to being even slightly entertaining like Tim's work, but a vid about this place is on YT. The whole place looks like a tourist trap. Le Perthus | El Pertús Walking Tour :: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqDGkJaHrN9mq9U

[@uk-hon5769]

Another Tim Traveller classic! I didn't know about this, either!

[@sweety-samathedrama3042]

Thanks for all your travel videos and strange findings! Always the highlight of the day!

[@tonytango6676]

Well, actually somewhat similar situation with respect to crossing the border happens in Hyder Alaska which is next-door to Stuart British Columbia. I happen to be having a beer in a bar in Haider win someone from the Coast Guard cutter had a fight with a local American. The fight ended up involving pipes and was short and brutal. Oh Hyder had a population of about 80 people at a time while Stewart had a population about 1500. So the ambulance was able to cross the border from Canada into the US and treat the injuries. However the RCMP had to wait for permission to cross the border. So they Hyder mayor, owner of the bar, phoned Alaska who phoned Vancouver, radioed up to Stewart and gave the RCMP official permission to do inquiries until Alaska police could arrive on the scene. As the road into Alaska only goes about 30 miles in back into Canada the Alaska place we have to have taken an airplane to get there. Well, they could’ve driven I suppose by the Yukon and down south with that would’ve been hundreds and hundreds of miles of gravel roads.

[@sarahprunierlaw9147]

Thanks for this story!

[@Larzh220469]

Encouraging to see that I am not the only one pedantically obsessed with geopolitical anachronisms! Have a great day!

[@darrenwilson8042]

always love your work Tim - informative and very entertaining

[@Raggo12345]

Brilliant episode as always!

[@sabinebogensperger1928]

A big Yes Please! to a bonus video about the neutral road. 👍

[@albertoblanch6484]

I have been many times in Llívia and I think everyone in Catalonia is well aware of its history. However, I never knew there was anything special about the road that leads there, so please, we need the bonus video!

[@testman9541]

The road is on French ground but with Spanish authority applied (law included). The road is on a small hill to prevent smuggler to go into Spain on it (from the field around that are in France) without being checked by border Police. There is even a bridge for that road that pass over a national road from France. The only case I know to date of such oddity ...

[@johnfenn3188]

Brilliant, Tim. Thanks!

[@FrauWNiemand]

This is so interesting. I never heard of it before. And I learned more about hiostory and Europe in Tims videos, than ever before in my life. Thank you, Tim.

[@KingRCT3]

Well, actually that's a great video! Just one thought tho. I watch your videos with captions on (and thanks a lot for making them!), but when you add a text on the video itself, it clashs. Exemple at 5:50. I suggest raising the in-video text a bit if possible. If not, it forces us to watch parts of the video twice and thus lengthen the watch time and oh my god it was planned all along.

[@Odisher7]

I'm in awe with the fact that he pronounces Llívia perfectly but said holà at the beggining (with the stress on the wrong syllable) xd. Anyway, very cool video, the whole independence thing has been treated very informed and profesional

[@TheTimTraveller]

Haha can't believe I spent all that time working on Llivia and Puigcerda and my Hola has let me down Thank you for the useful feedback :D

[@tristandunn4628]

I had clocked this on a map fairly recently and was intrigued. Thanks for the info.

[@EdMcF1]

Molt bé! Your best video yet, and that's a high bar.

[@richardlibby2407]

Well, actually...never mind. Nicely done. As usual.

[@angharadhafod]

Ah, now I know the history of the place I drove through, hmm... 25 years ago. Why did I drive through it? Because I had seen it on the map, that's why. And, well, therefore it had to be done.

[@andrewgwilliam4831]

That is a sound reason for going somewhere. When we were on holiday travelling around Spain for a fortnight some years back, I naturally left my partner behind for a day, in order to visit Gibraltar. There are other examples...

[@chagrined4days]

just discovered your channel, and have watched a few of your videos now, and I wanna say thanks for always noting whether or not each place you feature is wheelchair accessible. it's greatly appreciated.

[@dandelionmoodable]

Can't believe I had never heard about that enclave until now! Thanks for sharing the pedantry, Tim :)!

[@Aysome]

Came to the comments as you were rounding up to express my disappointment about not mentioning the road. Please do make this bonus vid

[@stebesplace]

Well Actually! This was a fantastic video as usual :P

[@rsceptre8187]

Fantastic! I always love it when a new video comes out!

[@rp1692]

I'm very pleased to hear of this victory for pedantry. Thanks!

[@f_e_d_e_r]

Ever heard of Italian enclave in Switzerland, Campione? :) That's quite an interesting piece of history as well :)

[@han5vk]

Well, actually... I love your videos.

[@georgec2126]

I had no idea about this at all. Very interesting! Thank you!👍🏿

[@peterdeak4113]

Tim is the best travel vlogger I have ever bumbed into here on youtube. He`s super funny and informative at the same time, I am hooked on his videos.

[@hatac]

I read somewhere about a bit of WW2 fun near the Pyrenees border. Determined to stop allied airmen, Jews and other refugees getting to the border with Spain the Nazis put check points on all the river crossings in France near the border. Except one. It was a ferry and it had sunk years before, so why bother. However it did not stay sunk. Someone refloated the tiny ferry, repaired it and shipped hundreds of people across the line. They were very cunning; while it was a working ferry it had been rebuilt as the only submersible ferry in the world. When not in use it sat on the bottom of the river where it had originally been. Visibly still under water. I for the life of me I can't find out where and which river but it was reportedly an hour or two on foot from an unguarded part of the border. Some time between D Day and VE day the thing was destroyed by a flood. Perhaps your European fans can find it.

[@Luubelaar]

Necessity is the mother of invention, so the saying goes. This is utterly brilliant.

[@testman9541]

Well actually Tim, you have lots of other things to see in that area like the Promes sites (Odeillo solar oven, where the space shuttle tiles were invented; Themis an RnD center for solar system) and the old solar oven of Mont Louis... the area is also famous for its geothermal bath (some even free with incredible mountain view included). Cerdagne is a great place 👍

[@towaritch]

Yes at a place called les Orres

[@aenorist2431]

I do really love the bits in your videos. The mic drop + "Do we *have* insurance" was pretty giggleworthy.

[@christophernoble6810]

Great video Tim. Not been to Llivia but passed very close on the little yellow train. We had a similar situation in Dorset in the distant past but largely long forgotten. These little anomalies are always fascinating.

[@pere_gin]

I used to spend the summer there every year, but now I mostly go to Puigcerdà (the bigger town next door)! I always loved the story of how it remained catalan when I was a kid too! (Even thought all villages should have remained catalan :( ) It is a very nice town if you want to visit it, and most people will understand and speak spanish and french even thought they might prefer you try using catalan (even if it is bad!).

[@waterbuck]

Well actually... This is some damn fine content.

[@1UPWonders]

Hola Tim! Always love to see new videos from you

[@shanidar]

Hi Tim, thanks for the video, the history and especially the photography. Llívia is in a beautiful locale.

[@wuffothewonderdog]

An old friend, now sadly passed on, who was a Catalan, told me that there were three enclaves between France and Spain, Andorra, Llivia and a place he said was called Pau. Now Pau is situated far away to the north-west, and has no connection with the Catalan area. Is there another Catalan who can throw light on this third enclave?

[@isilder]

I think he must mean the Pau in Catalonia , NOT the Pau in France. . Pau is a municipality in the comarca of Alt Empordà, Girona, Catalonia, Spain....

[@CraigerAce]

Because I’m an undereducated Yank, I was relieved to find out, after looking it up, the definition of pedantry is what it is and it’s not, well… that other thing. Educational and entertaining as always. Thanks Tim!

[@Chartley1983]

Hi Tim. I hope that you are well. I have been watching your video's for a while and I really enjoy them.

[@HanoiView123]

I look forward to your new video every day - It's very interesting to me. Thank you so much. Like from Vietnam