THG Podcast: History Lost: The 1890 Census and the 1973 NPRC Fire

[@tworedtornados]

Everytime i hear the history guy's voice i can't help but think how much my dad would have loved your channel and how i wish I could share it with him.

[@crazyeyez1502]

Stuff like this is why it's good to keep your own copies of what you can.

[@donwyatt723]

The missing 1890 census left multiple holes in my quest for ancestral knowledge and makes me guess on what should be a fact-driven process. Thank you for the history!

[@Roadglide911]

Same here. It seems the most important census in my quest met with destruction.

[@donwyatt723]

@@Roadglide911 I’ve taken a leap of faith and made assumptions to see what happens. It’s been successful a few times but sent me way down rabbit holes that were incorrect. I have so many relatives named James, John, William, etc., leaving me to discover a lot about other people’s families. 😏

[@Roadglide911]

@@donwyatt723 same. Everyone back then named their kids those name.

[@jtgd]

If anything, that goes how human errors and forces of nature can alter unknown numbers of decisions and actions centuries later

[@loyalrammy]

Loss of the 1890 Census makes that time period lost for genealogists. I’ve retrieved info other ways, like laborious searches through period newspapers. It was a tragedy.

[@johnstevenson9956]

It's interesting to note that none of our retirement records are digitized. It's all on paper in a repository in Pennsylvania. It's interesting too, to erroneously think that digitizing everything would be all we need to do. If anything is more fragile than paper, it's digital information, that could be lost to solar storms, EMPs, magnetism, hardware or software failure, etc. Maybe best not to simply rely on redundant backup, but on multiple forms of backup.

[@Sportwing1800]

I was just thinking on how fragile electronic media truly is. I have books that are over a hundred years old, fragile indeed but still accessible and readable. A floppy disc, if I still had any of them, cannot be accessed without a intensive effort to keep old computers and peripherals running. Imagine too that historical accounts could be fraudulently entered into the electronic noise of the internet, witness wikipedia and how many articles have been 'whitewashed' to change the perception of events.

[@TheCarnivalguy]

The loss of that census, remaining fragments notwithstanding, has been a thorn in the side of genealogists and family historians ever since. There are other ways to possibly locate an ancestor in 1890, but it is a laborious process in what is already a time consuming hobby. I was thrilled to locate an ancestor in 1891 when he applied for his Confederate pension from Alabama. Ordering his pension application revealed more information. Even after 25 years of family research, I still gnash my teeth at the loss of the 1890 census. Greetings to all my fellow genealogists!

[@madtrucker0983]

Yes same here

[@kaseymeier5944]

Thank you for keeping me entertained while I clean!

[@MightyMezzo]

I remember seeing advice columnists in the 1980s advising vets and veterans’ families to lay hands on all the documentation they could for their service, because of the 1973 fire.

[@Nipplator99999999999]

It will never stop astounding me, how many things are completely lost by the government. Especially, when if done by a civilian would put them in prison for the rest of their lifetime.

[@Drchainsaw77]

@Nipple Johnston Now, stop and marvel that there are so many people who trust it to run our medical system, schools, and to tell them when it's safe to see their families without their underpants on their faces, and you have some measure of why we are where we are.

[@RegularJoe419]

I was 9yrs old in 73 and remember ashes landing in my neighborhood in Woodson Terrace 5 miles north of there,it fell for days

[@johnkawczynski2488]

I worked for a member of Congress in the late 1980s. One time I called the NPRC to help a vet to get a copy of his service records. The woman who answered the phone said "We've had a fire." She said it in a way as it the fire had just happened!

[@generaljane7643]

My uncle’s WW II records were unfortunately some of the records that unabled to be saved. That caused lots of problems with his medical records but fortunately he was eventually able to work through the problems.

[@quick-and-easy]

My father's WW2 service records were lost in that 1973 fire, real loss for my family.

[@apo18llo]

Family Search has digitized and is indexing the monthly rosters of the Army enlisted personnel from 1912 through 1939. I have been able to find my great-grandfathers who served in WWI and gain some info on their service, such as which units they served in and for how long they served.

[@delusionnnnn]

I wish our records debacle ended in 1973. I served, ending in 1996, and when I needed my DD Form 214 (proof of honorable discharge), the National Archives had to send an equivalent form which was pretty much "we know this is almost entirely unreadable, but take this document as an equivalent of the DD Form 214", along with what they had on file, which looked like a 100th generation photocopy. It's not like 1996 was a distant era where documents weren't regularly scanned, or that we hadn't been using databases - hell, piloting databases was one of my jobs. But, remember, the "paperless office" is coming and will take over as soon as 1990.

[@Mudhooks]

Another hugely significant loss was due to a fire at the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) in St. Louis, Missouri, that destroyed approximately 16-18 million Official Military Personnel Files (OMPF) documenting the service history of former military personnel discharged between November 1, 1912 and January 1, 1950 of which about 80 percent were lost. and approximately 75 percent of Air Force personnel records for those discharged from September 25, 1947, through January 1, 1964. “Shortly after midnight on July 12, 1973, a fire was reported at the NPRC's military personnel records building in St. Louis, Missouri. The fire burned out of control for 22 hours and it took two days before firefighters were able to re-enter the building.” The losses directly affected veterans because the records were vital to obtaining their pensions and, in the longer term, affected the ability for family members and descendants to establish a picture of their ancestor’s military service. In my personal case, in order to obtain my US citizenship (I was born in Canada), I had to prove that for 10 consecutive years, my father was resident in the United States between certain dates, difficult when for most of the early years from his birth in 1914 where birth certificates were not issued in Iowa and records were spotty for the rest of his residence in the US before 1955. The only significant proof would have been his military service, both in the Iowa National Guard and his WWII service. The National Guard records were available. Records of his wartime service were not. They were lost in the 1973 fire.

[@Mudhooks]

I wrote this before I got to part 2 of the podcast.

[@droc6927]

This makes sense why I had/have so much trouble finding elatives cencus records forn 1890 on Ancestry. I had no clue

[@cornbreadfedkirkpatrick9647]

That fire sure did answer some questions ( I hope) about my dad's service records and my brothers in laws

[@ernestbywater411]

Your comment about non-water fire-fighting systems is true as many archive facilities and computer centers use gas based systems to choke fires.

[@terrymurphy8568]

All my father's military records were destroyed. When he died in 1978, they wouldn't give him a flag because they didn't have proof he was in the military. Even with his discharge papers, they didn't approve him to receive a flag. I later tried to access his records and then found out about this fire. I cannot get his decorations as a result.

[@rydplrs71]

I would contact your senator or representative’s office. They have a way of getting those things unstuck in the bureaucracy.

[@Islanderpr1]

I was able to request my father Korea medals with just the discharge document that they provided me. Hope you get them too.

[@wpo337]

I was able to get my father's and my father-in-law's decorations (I didn't try to get the flag) without any issue, so it is indeed, possible. They seemed very concerned and helpful to me. Try again and ask for a supervisor to help if needed, and also have your proof digitized for easy evidence. Have photos, orders, newspaper articles, etc. all handy.

[@scottclay4253]

Congratulations on one million subs!

[@2511jeremy]

You're son sounds just like you wish you guys all the best idk why yt never recommends me your videos i always have to search for them even tho im subscribed

[@USN308]

Regarding the NPRC fire, there is a glaring omission: It was PURPOSELY started (arson) by the Weathermen faction of the SDS. (Students for a Democratic Society) My Dad's military records were destroyed in that fire. He served in the USN from 1923 to August 1941, retiring with the rank of Chief Aviation Machinists Mate. December 8, 1941 he joined the USN again but was told since he had his private pilot license he was now a Lieutenant and was being sent to Pensacola NAS for Flight Training. Retired at the rank of Lieutenant Commander with the Navy Cross, Distinguished Flying Cross, Distinguished Service Cross, shot down 3 times. But since his later records for his War service were destroyed he was never able to get all the benefits he had earned. I don't think he ever quite got over that. A bunch of young people with that organizational name doing something like that is beyond me. It has also thrown a monkey wrench into my family records for genelogical purposes, along with the 1890 Census fire.

[@IamSnowbird]

My father's army records from WWII were destroyed. I sent for his records about 20 years ago and was informed about their destruction. They wanted me to send any information I had to try and reconstruct his records. I needed his records to see if he had been eligible for a medal for his service. My brother and I were trying to surprise Dad. There was nothing that could be done.

[@stevedietrich8936]

While it is a shame that we lost the 1890 census, if any good came from the fire it is that we realized the risk that our founding documents like the Declaration of Independence were under, and it spurred Congress to provide the funding to more safely protect these, and other precious documents.

[@texanasimmons1761]

Thank you for this podcast. Other than government use, the genealogists and family history people are one of the biggest losers of the loss of the 1890 census records. Most people, at this time, have family who "lost" their family. Myself, I cannot find any record for parents of 3 siblings who, by the 1900 census were orphans and living with an uncle and the eldest girl was even married by 1899 at the young age of 12-1/2. By the 1900 census they are living nexf door to the previously mentioned. The girl who married, had 2 daughters by the age of 16. Her husband ran off and never returned. She filed abandonment charges against him. She remarried less than a year later. The new step-father didnt care about the 2 toddlers. This young woman turned about age 17 and was ill with tuberuculosis. By the age of 20 she died, leaving those 2 little girls orphaned. The step-father didnt want the supervision and so pushed the girls off on his sister and brother-in-law and their own children. The girls were badly mistreated but had no place to go. Both girls married by age 16. Due to all circumstances, both girls knew nothing of their family history. I was able to give the girls, my distant cousins, much info I had gathered over the years, but not knowing their grandparents lives after the 1880 census. They only know the names and nothing else, no cause of death, no location of death or where they were buried. Thats a terrible loss to those girls, who were orphaned and abandoned by the the ages less than 10.

[@BlueBaron3339]

Sumner Chilton Powell's *_Puritan Village. The Formation of a New England Town_* - winner of the Pulitzer Prize in History for 1964 - was built entirely on vital records. Yet it tells a compelling story. I still have my rather battered and dogeared copy of it. Given that most people, even now, cannot express their thoughts through writing, and only elites were written about, vital records and tax rolls remain our best route into creating a picture of the past for 99.999% of us. What we're often left with is the history of elites which most history is. Thus, yeah, the loss of records is a BIG DEAL.

[@ElicBehexan]

Oh, wow. One of my very dear friends (RIP) step-father died during the 140 hour deep freeze Texas and Louisiana suffered from in 1983. The reason he was dying in a freezing shack in backwater Louisiana was because the Veteran's hospital in Shreveport couldn't find his records. Oh, they took him in, because they admitted there was no 'normal' way he could have 40ish year old shrapnel in his back except he was injured in WWII. He had been in the Army Air Force during WWII. He was in a bomber that had been hit, but made it back to England. So, the hospital would take him in, "stabilize" him, give him strong medicine for pain and throw him out. He managed to make it back to Noble LA, a tiny unincorporated village, and his ex-wife's shack that had a huge hole in the front that she had stuffed an old mattress in to keep out the worst of the wind. It was so cold in the place the water in the toilet had frozen. Someone in the village drove the roommate and her mother over to grandmother's place - the roommate's grandmother, the mother's mother. The reason the mother had the other place was "Mama" wouldn't allow the step-father in her place after a drunken fight years before. When I go visit my friend's grave I will tell her why the hospital wouldn't treat him.

[@nickames3808]

Your Father has a Perfect Voice and Delivery!!! THIS Vid seems slightly off soundwise though

[@jamieholtsclaw2305]

I did look at these records about 40 years ago. There were hard bound books with summaries of the census and migraine inducing microfilm for pictures of the actual census.

[@johnclaxton8293]

My grandfather was born in 1884 and on his own before 1900. This is a dear and personal loss.

[@nolimendoza4588]

Military records lost? My earliest Army service records were to be kept at the ARPERCEN army personnel center in Saint Louis, MO; while i was in medical school, 1989-1993. As i was in MO for school, i visited to ensure totality of my records. Guess what? The record manager for my section (L through N's) threw all our records out as he was an alcoholic and didn't want to work. He died in his car in the parking lot from pancreatitis. I was told... it was then MY responsibility to recoup my missing records. ARPERCEN took no responsibility for all of us, L-N's. To this day, they still do not. My Army retirement records were sent to ARPERCEN, Virginia. I learned to keep copies of every piece of paper with my name on it; 20 years, 26 deployments, 4 combat tours.

[@Islanderpr1]

So sad for everyone that finds, like I did, that the records you are looking for were lost in those fires. Feels like a void in your self.

[@Mudhooks]

Canada and, by extension, the the world scientific community suffered a huge loss when the Conservative Harper government ordered the gutting of the records for 300 years of fisheries data and surveys that had never been digitized. Books and records were simply thrown into dumpsters and destroyed. Some were salvaged by private individuals but it is not known what was taken, by whom, or what they contained. The records were considered world-class and were used by researchers around the world. The government claimed that the records were going to be digitized but it was not undertaken before the records were gone. The Harper government also cut funding to and shut down vital scientific programs such as the study of acid rain that had been recording data for decades. The programs were reinstated by the Liberal government but the gap in data is irreplaceable. The scientific community worldwide were involved in these studies and the data gathered was irreplaceable.

[@colinskelding8959]

I cannot get my father's DD214 because of the fire. I wanted to be a member of The Sons of the Legion (The American Legion) but although I was a member in Claremont, NH, the Legion in Montrose, CO demands that I produce my father's DD214. I am discusted with the AL in Montrose and won't support them anymore. Btw- I received a letter from the Claremont post stating, 'We have lost Colin's father's DD214. Colin has been a member in good standing since....' I also received an email from corporate AL stating the same thing AND even had my membership ID.

[@rabbitscantfly]

Grandpa helped his uncle get his earned purple heart. The VA had told him they didn't have any record of it. I guess my grandpa wrote enough letters because eventually both the VA and the sitting president both sent him a purple heart.

[@WildBillCox13]

Shared. My records were in the '73 fire.

[@slartybartfarst55]

The Domesday Book of 1086 paints a very accurate picture of England, including population numbers, and exists Today. And people think we have progressed!

[@grahamrankin4725]

My grandparents immigrated from Europe just before or just after 1890.

[@torchofkck4989]

As important as recording family heritage... I believe that the loss of the patent office was more detrimental for personal & national history.

[@evensgrey]

For an attempt at the scale of 18 million military service records being lost: That's three times the total number of US military personnel involved in WWII.

[@michaelwinter8633]

I prefer to see you when you do theses videos.

[@pittsburghwill]

a very great tragedy was many world war one veterans records were significantly effected by this fire lost forever

[@ericmartin9041]

Can you review the Universal Studio fire of 2008?

[@raythornton8578]

Compared to most other countries America never has shown much interest in preserving our own history. How we could be such a young country and remember so little about our history is disgraceful. And the country we are becoming is not worth remembering.

[@TheCarnivalguy]

Agreed. So it is with some of our architectural masterpieces, both public and private. While many countries cherish their architecture worthy of being saved, our mentality is "down with the old and up with the new". Even considering the help of historical and preservation societies, the US has a dismal record of saving it's architectural heritage. Much of the guilt should be placed on real estate developers. They would rather build a steel and glass tower, strip center, parking lot, or subdivision in place of that grand old structure they bought for pennies on the dollar. We seem to be very good at trying to sweep various forms of our history under the rug. smh

[@stevedietrich8936]

31:05 to skip forward to the 1973 NPRC fire

[@grahamrankin4725]

With the ever changing digital technology, will they be able to read the old mag tapes or DISCS in 50 years?

[@philpartin8618]

I don't like the fact that there's no video with this. Otherwise it's terrific.

[@pamwatterson3845]

It’s a podcast

[@ernestbywater411]

I wonder how many of the records can be recreated or partially recreated from the individual unit records.

[@hlmoore8042]

Oh is it just me but THG's son sound a BIT like the grown up THG? lol

[@jimd8008]

About 20 years ago I wanted to know more about my deceased father's Korean War experiences. Gathered all the necessary information and filled out the form. As I remember it was a lengthy form with alot of information required. Sent it in, waited months and then received a form letter stating that the files were lost in the fire. Would have been better if they had warned me prior to the request.

[@USN308]

They can't read minds, that's why you send in the form. THEN they can look up the records, but not without the info you provide. Stop & think how many millions of Veterans there are! You reminded me of the calls we used to get in the USN: "Hi, this is Monica, is John there?". "John who, Ma'am?" Her:"Oh, I don't know his last name, he works on the ship." " Ma'am, we have 3,800 men on this ship, and I don't know how many of them are named John, but I need more information if I'm going to be able to connect you." Her: "Why are you being so mean to me?" we would get at least 30-100 calls per day just on OUR ship the same as this example. I don't know about you, but I flunked out of telepathy class in high school.....

[@fredcloud9668]

With all the money our government wastes you would think...

[@hlmoore8042]

The destruction of the 1890 Census makes me cringe just listening to that. I've been researching my own family history for about 21 years now - just about the time that ancestry started up. Oh -just a note this upcoming 1 Apr 2022 the 1950 Census will be the released. I CANNOT wait.

[@TheCarnivalguy]

Looking forward to that also. My parents would have been married 6 months at the time of the 1950 census. I hope I live to see myself listed in the 1960 census when I was 5 years old.

[@JimFortune]

So, the fire did some damage, but the bulk of the damage was caused by bureaucratic incompetence.

[@dougeldredge]

a lot of military records were lost in a fire in new orleans, ive heard , from va., do you know anything about it?

[@thejudgmentalcat]

I've always wondered if my dad's side of the family was lost, as his parents were in Richmond, Virginia for a few years before 1890. My mom's side were from Mexico and I'd bet money they were undocumented.

[@thomassalois3508]

Isn't the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in danger of fading away completely?

[@lordgarion514]

They've been treated, and are stored in climate controlled cases, that also block out harmful light. And typically, the ink they used back then had actual iron in it.

[@naturaltruth1596]

1890 63 million, 2021 334 million.... most of you do not have a clue.....

[@Tacklebox3000]

I love your content but an add ever four minutes is too much

[@HalfassDIY]

We don't know the cause...but it wasn't arson. Lol.

[@sterfry8502]

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️❤️❤️🤘🤘👍👍

[@billholland2076]

Keep PodCasts off KZbin! 🤢🤮

[@spikespa5208]

Why?