Things Smash Players Get Wrong About Fighting Games

[@lordknightfgc]

what do you think fg players get wrong about fighting games? definitely want to do the reverse, maybe with someone? (also pls subscribe)

[@ADxTygon]

did u mean what fg players get wrong about smash or am i having a stroke

[@ElasticLove12]

Get apologyman! Love these videos btw!

[@normancraytor6749]

Can you give your opinion on the design issue (or lackthereof) of most melee characters gaining an invincible move when you put them in the corner? I'm talking about ledge dashing. Fox gets invincible up-tilt/upsmash etc, Peach gets nothing, some characters don't get fully invincible moves but do get partial invincibility. I can't think of any fighting games with such a weird mechanic so would like your thoughts on it.

[@DonPitoteDeLaMancha]

Imo fg players tend to exaggerate how good or bad a character is and usually have some kind of bias towards a specific archetypes (especially zoners) cause of different reason but mainly its because they are good at exploiting a specific weakness they have, I think this applies mainly to the low-mid level players although it definetly happens on the high levels of play

[@Trekiros]

One thing I think might trip up fighting game players trying Smash out is the concept of killmoves. In SF, I can end the round with chip damage, with a fireball from half a screen away, or with a sneaky low kick. In Smash, you kinda have to realize that your character only has 2-4 killmoves, and those moves are usually slow and don't have a lot of setups, especially in the games since Brawl. So that changes the dynamic of the neutral completely: if your best pokes don't set up killmoves, then... At some point you've gotta stop using those good pokes and fish for some harder reads, otherwise your opponent's going to survive until 200%. And your opponent knows exactly what your 2-4 killmoves are, so they're going to adapt their counterplay, and specifically try to avoid being in a situation where you get to use those 2-4 moves. It's not just combos that change when you're at low vs high %, it's the neutral too. This is especially the case in Brawl; if your character had poor killmoves, it was a low tier. Even if the rest of your kit was great. Fox and Sheik were good examples of this.

[@IBRockeh]

Re stage choice: It definitely matters in modern tekken because there are some stages with walls, some without. Some stages have breakable walls or floors that take you into a new area (and give you a chance for more damage on transition)

[@nervnervnervnervnerv]

Doesn't he talk about this in the video? If not thats pretty braindead

[@manuelito1233]

​@johnny2501 he doesn't play 3d fighters, he does say "afaik"

[@abirneji]

@@manuelito1233 that makes sense there's only like 1 franchise left that isn't dead or dying

[@chsi5420]

@@abirneji :( Don't remind me

[@TheDudeness123]

Since a lot of people in the FGC don't even consider Melee, or Smash games in general as fighting games, Melee players try waaay too hard to convince everyone that their game is the hardest shit ever. Why can't people just play and enjoy their own game. And that goes too for the FGC that always talk a lot of shit about Smash.

[@doomslayer8985]

All communities will try to justify everything and at the end seek validation

[@Smitteys86]

I think that sentiment has fortunately mostly faded away, at least from my experience. Most people consider Smash/Platform Fighters fighting games, they're just a unique subgenre. The real problems are that 1) smash's audience (primarily Smash Ultimate's) skews way younger, and they hate feeling like the little brother to the FGC. Which, fair I guess, being the little brother sucks.... and 2) That this idea that smash "isn't a fighting game" USED to be really common before the FGC grew to what it is now, and there's a lingering feeling of having to prove itself that the smash community has.

[@wazzledog1007]

I actually have the opposite experience. Smash players trying to tell me how good and accessable it is, and how restrictive and bad motion commands are. But in my experience, no motion commans is nearly as frusterating or hard on my hands as even intermediate tech is in smash. Not in a vacuum, but once I started going for consecutive tech in game, the inputs per second skyrocketed beyond what I can handle.

[@thedevilyoyo]

⁠@@wazzledog1007I tried my first fighting game (Granblue) recently and was shocked I could do all the practice combos using technical inputs after a couple days. But in Melee I still fuck up the basic shit after 3-4 year grinding the game. The game is too fast and our controllers suck LOL

[@weilzudope]

because it has the hardest movement of any game, and there is no buffer except for some things.

[@TheTyphoonSwell]

Melee players try not to tell everyone how hard the game is constantly challenge: impossible

[@mallow2902]

I don't play Melee anymore, I just play fighting games, but I would say that Melee's difficulty is somewhere in the middle of the difficulty spectrum. Games like Tekken, Guilty Gear XXACR, Third Strike, and maybe USF4 are a good deal harder than Melee in my opinion, but Guilty Gear Xrd Rev2 and BlazBlue CF feel a little easier, though they're still difficult. Games like Strive and Granblue are much easier than Melee. My perspective might be a little skewed though because I started playing fighting games and Smash casually around the same time, and at this point I've dropped Smash and am still playing fighting games, so I have a lot of built in experience and muscle memory.

[@X0v3r]

fr ts mad fuckin annoying

[@c0diz]

it is the most frame tight fighting game i know of but tekken is prob harder lol

[@tuipulotulavaka1757]

I been a fan of Tekken since Tekken 2, and I gotta say I think KOF is the toughest fighting game I've ever touched lol. KOF 02 UM is probably peak difficulty, but even KOF 15 which dumbes things down a little bit is still massively complicated.

[@echospace7347]

@@mallow2902you’ve never expierened the game at a high level I think

[@atWisely]

Hey! I'm a platform fighter specialist (I've done national commentary for nearly a decade with Melee, PM, Rivals, NASB, MVS, and more), but I've been learning traditional fighters with Strive and SF6 for about two years now. I'm actually working on a video about the learning process switching genres so I've been thinking about this exact thing a ton. I'd love to talk about the crossover/overlap stuff if you're up for it!

[@zantetsu75]

I'd like to join this discussion. I'm also both a competitive Smash Player and competitive TFG player. I'm currently unranked in ultimate right now, but that's because I'm in the NY scene with Tweek, Dabuz, and John Numbers, etc XD, but I used to be top 15 in Missouri. I currently play Strive as my main TFG, but I've played many others, and have gone competitive with multiple, so I think I'd be able to provide a pretty good perspective on this matter.

[@benjaminnoble-kuchera1876]

Wisely vouch, this guys stuff is great

[@peterpansie5]

Bald, request discarded

[@Willow1662]

although i don’t always agree with your takes, i find you have generally thought through most of your ideas in a way that at the very least challenges my assumptions:)

[@SoldierLuka]

Vouch! Wisely is awesome. S/o PM

[@bt_11]

I think FGs have some mechanics that are tangentially similar to DI. The direction you tech in older anime fighters can be the difference between returning to neutral or staying trapped in pressure. Killer Instinct's combo breaker mind games are an example of interaction during combos as well.

[@sheikneedles9250]

But Melee has directionally teching AND DI

[@nivrap_]

@@sheikneedles9250 In this case they're referring to air teching like in Blazblue or previous Guilty Gear games

[@liptherapypirate]

I thought that combo breaker is kind of like DI, not as complex but a similar idea

[@alex-dh8zy]

soul caliber

[@loopseeker]

they look similar on the surface, but DI is too deep and nuanced.. no fighting game has anything like DI

[@GlowingOrangeOoze]

I played smash all my life, then started playing 3S in like 2010 and man it was NOT easy for me. I was like "they're invincible while waking up? how do you push advantage? You cant grab during hitstun? How do grapplers combo? Hitstun is so short. How is anything supposed to combo? My mobility is so limited. How do you press an advantage?" Unfortunately my friend who grew up with FGs didn't explain anything to me because he just played since childhood and didn't intellectually know the answers to any of my questions. He didn't even know how he was actually making DPs come out. So I had a very frustrating first exposure to non-platform fighters. Just throwing my two cents in as a smasher whose experience learning other FGs via 3S is NOT a hypothetical lol

[@rapidretrovenue563]

Think of them getting knocked down as them grabbing the ledge. They will have an opportunity to do something but every option they can choose has a counter, so you pressure them with your pressence. Movement varies by game, some fighters are really sluggish I will agree. Others like UMK3 & MVC2 are quite expressive, definitely should checkout those games. They're old though lolmany modern traditional fighters are too slow for my taste, so I sympathize with your speed argument. Think of grabs as like... uhhh, fuck idk like a combo starter ONLY kinda move in most situations. Many fighting games in general have moves that don't come out after certain hits because they function through "flags" that lock them when conditions are met. Think of like diddy bananas or some shit where you can start things up with it but if you already have it out you cant whip another banana out. Hope this helps!

[@GlowingOrangeOoze]

@@rapidretrovenue563 I appreciate that but I'm afraid your efforts are about 10 years late for me. I'd have killed for some guidance back THEN, though.

[@palatonian9618]

Sick burn there at the end of the comment haha. Good old Dunning Kruger

[@GlowingOrangeOoze]

@@palatonian9618 Do you mean in my original comment or my reply?

[@ZolPsyko]

I agree that Smash players, from my experience, are terrible at explaining things. I fought one of the top seeds at a tournament one time, lost but was eager to learn. So I asked for advice. I got told to "react more" to moves that are less than 10 frames. I learned then that good players dont always make good teachers lol.

[@zantetsu75]

Yeah, it's a weird paradox. I was in the 'good-teacher' category of the Smash scene myself. Top players would body me consistently, but when I gave them advice on sets I watch them play against their rivals, they've explicitly told me that my advice helped them beat their demons.

[@theomnigamer9177]

The person who told you to react to moves that are less than 10 frames can’t be human. The person who told you that is probably part of the crowd that says Z Broly command grab is reactable. And that grab is 17 frames. The grab is unreactable no matter what due to input delay.

[@taytertot9382]

I will say that that might be a person to person thing. I’ve had top players in smash who are excellent at talking about the game and top players who are terrible at it. Maybe it’s just the difference between intuitive players and knowledge based players

[@zantetsu75]

Yeah, I'm a knowledge based player. If you are used playing Smash like I am, 17 frames sounds outright slow to me. To a smash player, anything less than 8 frames is considered "Unreactable". You may question how this is possible, but it really is, speaking from lived experience. I react to 10 frame moves all the time. Part of that ability to react comes from game-state recognition, understanding your opponents possible options, and knowing your own play/counterplay options. If you're familiar with Dragon Ball, think of it like Ultra Instinct, if you have to THINK about what's happening, you're probably not able to react to anything slower than 18~20 frames, but if your body *"already knows"* what to do, the human body is capable of MUCH faster reaction.

[@lunamaster123]

@@zantetsu75 It sounds like you are describing a prediction... not a reaction.

[@davi_sem_d4769]

Adding to the first topic, Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive also have Weight system in all their games and that affects a lot in combos, even in some of the most simple and casual juggles. DOA (outside 1 and 6) also has slopes and that makes you have to change your combo using the weight logic, if you are going down on the slope you can treat your opponent like a lightweight, and you can treat him as a super heavy if you are going upwards .

[@bt_11]

Oh yeah, I forget about Virtua Fighter sometimes. Weight matters a ton in that game. IDK so much about Dead or Alive

[@Smitteys86]

Something that I heard a lot from smashers/smash commentators prior to playing FGC games myself is that "the skills transfer" between the genres (smash -> FGC games). On a high-level, broad-strokes strategy level, they do... but honestly platform fighters are a whole different world from 2D and 3D fighting games. How they control/feel, the way you move, how you control space, the way neutral works, how combos work, what the advantage states even are... its like learning a different language with the same distant roots as the one you're used to. Even with a lifetime of experience in platform fighters, you're gonna be starting from scratch in traditional fighting games. At least, this was my experience, and I assume it's most people's experience unless you're like, a competition-level player. It kinda feels like most of the people who say "the skills transfer" are more often making an assumption than speaking from experience. They see Leffen and go "see? the skills transfer, he's good at both" when in reality he's like the only top melee player to have widespread success in an FGC game, and he's been playing 2D fighters for a long time. And of course i'm not saying that smash players are worse than FGC players, or that smash isn't a fighting game- that's stupid and people who say it are trolling. Melee especially is *incredibly* difficult, and any good player in any smash game can become good at any fighting game. But there's this lingering feeling in the smash community that they want to be taken seriously as a 'real' fighting game/part of the FGC, even though the overlap between communities in terms of players is small. This is significantly less true now than it was 10 years ago, especially with how Fighting Games have become more popular. But generally speaking, the FGC and the Smash Community are two different communities, and that's fine. In short- if you try to compare your game to another game without actually knowing how they're different, you're probably gonna say something stupid.

[@zantetsu75]

I can speak on this as a Competitive level Smash and Traditional FG player. The skills do indeed transfer, both ways, actually. What is often omitted, and therefore misjudged is *WHAT* skills ultimately are transferrable between games. Smash games require a significant mental stack as compared to most game in general, with 50 APM being on the LOW end of things, so the cereberal aspect of playing a TFG actually tends to feel much more friendly and welcoming than the other way around. I feel like I can relax and outright turn my brain off when I play Strive, compared to the mental load I fell when playing Smash. Smash also is an extremely interactive game, in that all players are able to interact with more aspects of the gameplay than is possible in most games in general. You're not usually ACTIVELY playing the game in real time *while you're being combo'd*. At best, you're just lying in wait for the combo to drop, your chance to tech, or deciding to burst (if applicable), but in Smash, combos don't necessarily just "end", you the player have to *work* to end their combo, actively, in real time. As a result, that makes Smash both a neutral heavy game, and a game that forces the "Neutral" mindset in both Advantaged states AND Disadvantaged states. As a result, the biggest skill that gets transferred from Smash to a TFG is your aptitude for Neutral, Mixups, Resets, Frame Trapping, Setplay, Player Adaptation, and General mindgames. Conversely, because TFGs are usually akin to a coreographed dance between two opposing gymnasts (weird metaphor, I know), it requires consistency, patience, decisiveness, and deliberate execution, to play competently. TFGs usually encourage the player to maximize and optimize the return on any investment they give to any given win of the neutral. Players who acquire this skill will usually pick of a sense of how hit-confirming, conversion-trees, and recognizing situations can work in their favor, and constantly pumping your your BnB Combos will work that execution muscle. This transfers into smash be being better able to recognize the overall game condition, having better situational awareness, and an easier acquisition of execution heavy techniques, combos, and skills. When I play a round of Smash after having played GG for a while, I feel like my combos are crispier, and I'm more on the ball about the overall game state and tend to be much more decisive in my capitalisations. I feel like I just notice things better. When I play a round of GG after having played Smash for a while, I feel like my neutral becomes disgusting, I'm constantly winning interactions and taking advantage more frequently, I'm consistently hitting nasty mixups, and am able to recognize and better react to my opponent's mixups (and they often feel more primitive to me). I also notice that my adaptation to an opponent who started bodying me 6~7 games into a FT10 is on point, as I end up reverse 10-0'ing them, often genuinely confused how I was able to beat them despite them clearly being a higher ranked opponent than me. It's very nuanced, but I hope this help you understand what less articulate players mean when they talk about "skill transferring".

[@akkorokamui8319]

I think you guys are very right. Having tried it myself. Broadly skills transfer, like game sense and the ability to read and adapt to your opponent, but on a practical level you are still learning and entirely new skill, learning an entirely new control scheme or sometimes controller (like fightstick to gc controller). It's like saying because you can drive a car you can also sail a ship or fly a plane. I'm sure having driving experience can make the transition faster, but at the end of the day there is still a lot of learning that needs to be done, and there's really no shortcutting that.

[@XenonAgenT01]

Only melee does. Because it actually takes skill and talent unlike every other smash game

[@Smitteys86]

@@XenonAgenT01 oh man you're so cooool

[@drumnbasssakuga9352]

i don’t know how people can say that smash has more skill transfer when the extremely fundamental fg elements of hold-back-to-block, motion special inputs, and high/low mixup just don’t exist in smash. not to mention how dashing/running inputs work in tfg’s. i struggle to think of any fundamental movement/mixup/attack technique smash has which tfgs don’t.

[@daring_fgc]

a few things worth mentioning!! killer instinct's combo breaker system has the same level of nuance of mixing up people during your combos as smash's di system, and skullgirls's emphasis on resets similarly has you focused on mix-ups during combos. and stages do matter in some games! beyond 3d fighters, which you didn't mention, injustice had stage hazards that made stage selection matter a ton for match-ups. also, beyond soul calibur, iirc bloody roar also has a similar system of air di/teching. great vid, lk!

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

as a sweaty-casual smash player who's dippped their toes into skullgirls, it's funny to hear smash players saying outright that fighting games don't have weight classes or players can simply "memorize combos" (as though most characters in smash don't have universal combos) sure, some combos and mixup routines can be memorized, but there's a lot to dynamically choosing resets and setups to catch your opponent off-guard. you condition your oponent to expect a reset in one situation, but then you reset slightly earlier or later. you condition them to expect a reset there, then you hold block on their mash and keep going. just because your fighting game doesn't have DI it doesn't mean that the combo system isn't defensively interactive.

[@freehatespeech6804]

"Smash is the only game with its own weight system" Kliff players trying to figure out how to combo to 6[H] against every character's unique weight and hurtbox: Sol fans trying to clean hit sidewinder: Robo Ky enjoyers trying to stun people with missile loops off of grab: Literally any character who gets an air to air: Edit: To be fair, in Smash, gravity changes with damage taken, so every combo is is slightly different, even a little more than Guilty Gear anti airs and air to airs.

[@yugimumoto1]

Oh god kliff 6[H].

[@AllBladesCut]

I see what ur saying but I’ll explain it better for the Fgc players. Technically gravity itself never changes in smash but ur moves do more knock back (and have more hitstun) based on the percent u were at before the move landed. Also almost every move gets increases to its knock back with increases in percent, except moves with set knock back. This values know as kbg (knock back growth) also different moves have different kbg values.

[@statha3624]

@@AllBladesCut That's true but it doesn't come close to how difficult some other fighting games are

[@ZachHenke]

Honestly, I think it’s really more of a matter of most people who play traditional FGs having less interest in playing platform fighters. That is, there isn’t some inherent advantage switching from one type of game to the other. I’d say that most of Leffen’s success is due to him having a lot of talent, and not and inherent advantage that he had coming from Melee. I’d wager that Punk could have been a great smash player if he had pursued that instead because he has a lot of the same talents.

[@Syrup4prez]

I agree, smash only interest me when I’m drunk at a party. But it is very fun in those scenarios!

[@zantetsu75]

I think you're correct as well. SonicFox picked up Smash for a hot second and nearly took a set off of a top player not even 2 months into playing Smash. While I do believe that there is a steeper learning curve for TFG players to cross to be competitive in Smash, I don't think they aren't capable of just as easily becoming a top Smash player if the *really tried*.

[@lordknightfgc]

Think I said it in the vid, but I'm of the opinion of a truly legit player of the genre is a legit player of the genre, and they will succeed wherever they put effort in. Def agree with you on this

[@musacajelly2941]

​@@lordknightfgc in general champions are people who rise to the occasion, in an alternate timeline where JWong played Starcraft Brood War and Flash played MVC2 I bet you'd find them to still be the best player in their respective games as mindset and dedication is a bigger difference maker then talent or "skill", those only determine how good you are when you start playing.

[@solbradguy7628]

This is probably true. For the most part I just don't really like the roster of characters in pretty much any platform fighter. Smash's roster has grown a lot better over the years with some characters I like but it was too little too late I guess. There's really not a single character in Melee that appeals to me aesthetically. I wouldn't call a single character on that roster truly "cool" and that's important for me to want to learn the character. Even if I played Ultimate and could play a character I like such as Cloud or Sephiroth, I'd have to play against characters like Duck Hunt and Game and Watch and Wii Fit and the list goes on...I don't even want those characters to be in the same game lol. It seems like every platform fighter has the same goofy cartoon aesthetic, I mean you've got literal Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network platform fighters. Meanwhile in anime fighters like Blazblue and Guilty Gear I love almost every character on the roster. It's not even close. Plus the ring out thing is weird. I don't like that being the only win condition, it feels corny af. If I hit somebody with a big combo, I want the combo to kill them, not to have to launch them off the stage. I liked the mode in smash where you have health instead of %, but nobody seems to ever play or talk about that. And speaking of combos, they're my favorite part of FGs. Cool combos are sick. And smash's combos are weird and feel janky. Every character having different weight and falling out of combos is jarring and just feels bad. I know GG has character weight but it's a lot different, most combos will still work on most characters in GG. It feels like there are hardly any "true" combos in smash. I've played mostly anime fighters and been in the fgc over a decade and I might be decent at smash if I applied myself but for a lot of reasons it just doesn't appeal to me even a little bit.

[@NeverduskX]

In terms of stage choice mattering, I think Tekken's stages tend to change things up a ton. Even ignoring stage shape, there are also vertical stages and infinite stages that benefit some characters over others.

[@mujiha]

Really surprised at no mention of kof. Sakurai speaks very highly of that series and you can see just how much of Smash was inspired by the systems in kof. Short hops, short hop aerial pressure, dodge rolls, amd just the overall speed of the game are some of the fundamental mechanics that make up the backbone of both Smash and KoF before it. Point is, smash fans wanting to get into (or at least get insight into) traditional FGs are really sleeping on kof.

[@Komatik_]

Exactly. Preach it.

[@capitainemmhenri1299]

12:30 "You gotta mind game" Is the most melee thing I've heard in a while lol

[@im_Tsu]

DOA is another game where, like Smash, you can't just go for the same combo all the time. If you always go for the same setup/combo, you can get blown up by a Hold. There's also things like Slow Escape too. One of the best parts of DOA was always that, like Smash, you had things you could do while being hit to keep your opponent on their toes and not auto-pilot.

[@drumnbasssakuga9352]

for the vast majority of fighting games, doing the same combo every time isn’t anywhere close to optimal. I love how smash elitists conveniently forget that meter exists in fighting games and how heavily it affects the combo and oki options available.

[@Joseponypants]

In my opinion one of the biggest reasons for people that don't migrate to Smash is that there are no good tutorials. The game itself does nothing to teach you about how to properly play, and even when learning about advanced techniques there are hundreds of youtube videos that you have to watch. Fighting games also have bad tutorials but it's so, sooooo much worse for Smash.

[@nivrap_]

I started playing Smash 4 competitively in 2018, continued with Ultimate, then picked up fighting games in 2020 when the pandemic hit, and since then I've been in the rabbit hole. Playing other fighting games (particularly Blazblue CF, which was the first game I _really_ latched onto) made me realize how skewed and simplistic my idea of fighting games was back when I had _only_ played Smash. Like the first guy whose comment you talked about, I had thought that combos were THE thing about fighting games, and it took a while for me to learn that combos don't mean shit if you aren't able to create the opportunities to land them, which means diving into the infinitely deep theory behind neutral, oki, RPS, the real meat and potatoes of the genre. And like the _second_ commenter, I thought fighting games would be "simple" because they don't have the physics quirks of Smash as they relate to movement/combos, only to realize that both Smash and other fighters are infinitely deep, because even the simplest FGs derive a massive amount of depth from the fact that you're fighting another human being, which forces you to think about multiple layers of decision-making. Ultimately the biggest thing I learned from fighting games was to change my outlook on competition, which has actually changed my life in general for the better. I don't play to win and get upset when I lose, I play to learn, and that has made so much of the quote-unquote "bullshit" in fighting games so much easier to manage, including Steven Minecraft who to me just feels like a tame high tier from any other fighting game.

[@ERRandDEL]

As somebody who also started with Smash before eventually gravitating to mainly playing Gear, I notice the weird fixation on combos from Smash players locally *all* the time, even going back as far as Xrd. Trying to get some folks in locals to play some Xrd or some Strive, and I'd always have at *least* one dude saying "those 2D games are boring because you just learn one combo and you do one thing all the time and it's boring", which I feel like is the easiest thing to disprove (what range are you at for your starter, what are your resources, do they have a defensive mechanic like a burst that might alter your decision making mid-combo etc etc). But, I also feel like it's the hardest thing to get some Smash people to bother considering.

[@zantetsu75]

As someone playing GGXX and Strive, you are correct in that starting conditions do affect the progression of your combos, but also as a high level smash player, I see where they're coming from and somewhat aggree. As someone who can consistently play in Celestial in Strive, I understand many intracies and permetations of combos and move gatlings for my characters, but here's the thing: they all just amount to slight adjustments that serve to help reposition / set myself up to be able to enter my bread-n-butter progressions. If I play Ky, the start of my combo, whether it be 6P, 2K2D, CS, FS, or 5H all have very different conversion routes, but they all *end* roughly the same way, usually into Stun Dipper->RRC -> BnB or Dire Eclat->RRC->BnB. I feel like I'm repeating the same moves A LOT when I'm playing these games, and that DOES get boring when compared to Smash, where you're typically forced to do *everything* differently, *every* time. In most situations, **NO 2 combos** will ever be exactly the same, and even your BnBs in Smash are extemely Volatile, despite what Top player VODs might lead you to believe. The only thing that shakes things up from my usual offensive comboing and pressure in GG is when I have to watch out for DPs, ISSs, or Bursts, which is usually just a slight deviation as opposed to an outright game changer.

[@kjam1389]

​@@zantetsu75 this is really dependent on who you play. Characters like Potemkin at a higher level have extremely unique routing (kBMF, [FDB], JFkBMF, HFBkGK extension) that depends on a ridiculous amount of factors while characters like Johnny have very different routes for crouching and standing opponents (before the Elphelt patch, his BnB was even character-specific and had special versions for Ky, Chaos, Zato, etc). The character you play as well as your priorities as a player (i.e., whether you go for harder tech like TK HVV > 5K links on Sol) can lead to needing at least 10 or so unique variations on your BnBs to account for stuff

[@zantetsu75]

@@kjam1389 Fair enough. I don't play those characters, so it might be different for them. I've been thinking about picking up a new character because my current ones were feeling stale as I basically get to Celestial more or less executing the same 3~4 combo routes over and over again. As far as more advanced stuff, I think there is some validity there, but if you're playing to win, even LK will tell you in one of his previous videos, it's best to stick to what is simple and can be done *consistently* instead of trying to "get fancy" for something thay may only give you marginally better return. That said, I do think advanced combos are HYPE, so I am personally interested in being able to do them. That being said, while it is a lot to know, and it is by NO MEANS easy to do, once you've "got it", that's it. Once you *have* your routes figured out, even those become 'rinse-and-repeat', albeit more situational. I think being able to have the situational awareness to know that this route applies is quite difficult, and that form of engagement is actually fun in my opinion, the fun is coming from the discovery and revelations, rather than the execution..but that's just me.

[@kjam1389]

@@zantetsu75 I can agree with the discovery part, which is again why I like Potemkin so much. His combo routing gets super open-ended at the high end (look at DSBroTV'S S2 optimal combo guide, its mostly unchanged in S3), Pot has some wild stuff and he's still actively being explored

[@MarkoLomovic]

@@zantetsu75 While I understand what you are trying to say, I find it wrong on so many levels. You are comparing two different genres for situations where there is very little overlap. You are missing the point of OP, he is saying that people who never played fighting games diss them on something as superficial as combos are boring. it is as if someone said platform fighters are boring all they do is running around and laming each other, then I come in and say " I see where they are coming from and somewhat agree", like fuck I would never give any credence to that type of shit.

[@SensualPeon]

think an important part to add on about learning an established game is just how much the age of the smash scene affects the skill floor, mainly for melee. a modern players basic movement looks absolute insane compared to what the top level was like when the game was half as old, and movement is so incredibly important for platform fighters. and in terms of transferring skills between platform and traditional fighters, going from smash to traditional covers a lot of the skill floor (spacing, neutral, etc), while going from traditional to smash covers those same things but lacks movement (and unique stuff like L-canceling), which is a pretty high skill floor to have to catch up to if you want to be remotely competitive. not to say melee is inherently harder or the players are better, just that the parts that dont overlap with traditional fighters are super important to reach the skill floor

[@vision4860]

I have a pretty unique standpoint on this I think, because I actually started playing traditional fighters with Soul Cal 2 and Sonic the Fighters for traditional fighters, and Smash Brawl for platform fighters, both at single digit age. So I understand both pretty well. I think a lot of people don't understand that the broader *concepts* used in the fundamentals are basically the same. The major difference is in the capabilities you have to interact with those concepts. Keeping someone in the corner in traditionals is very similar fundamentally to keeping someone at the edge of the stage in platform fighters. Poking with safe moves, punishing, unsafe moves, etcetera etcetera, it's there. The game system just functions differently.

[@qualityart4004]

former ultimate player here, ultimate did try and make movement more accessible with changes like auto short hop aerials or easy dash dancing. But this counter intuitively made other movements harder like doing full hops. Combined with the awkward buffer system means learning to move at higher levels of play often requires getting over the awkward quirks of the game’s system. Its not as technically demanding as something like melee but its still a hurdle to get over.

[@FerousFolly]

the better you get at ultimate, the more it feels like a 2v1 with the game teaming up with ur opponent against you

[@mikelelola86]

Man I love analysis videos comparing Smash and traditional fighters, I think it's such an interesting and deep topic, but sadly there's too little content for this specific niche. Please keep doing these, they're fun as hell!

[@ElasticLove12]

One thing to add is not only do you need to factor in weight, fall speed and DI, you also need to consider percentages that’s like GG having combos that only work when your opponent is at certain health values throughout the match. And in the later games rage (your own character’s percentage) can also affect which strings or combos work

[@onkarlally]

Guilty Gear does have combos that change depending on health. Guts kicks in super hard at the end of a life bar so you see pros change their combos in xrd to a lot of low damage hits.

[@mikelelola86]

Oh so with high guts doing more small hits is more damaging than fewer strong hits? I didn't know that, I thought those combos I see on Twitter that end with like a million jPs were like that because hitstun scaling prevents anything else from working that late into the combo. Pretty interesting.

[@solarsloan]

@@onkarlallythe optimal damage combos change, but there aren’t combos that will just drop because the opponent’s health was a certain value.

[@ElasticLove12]

@@onkarlally this is also something to consider but like someone else mentioned the combos don’t just drop when Guts starts to kick in your route just becomes less optimal if you don’t adjust much different but good note

[@Jardonius]

@@mikelelola86 They call em "Guts Breaker" combos and I just love the term lol

[@RealHumanVT]

I am praying for you like you asked on twitter

[@TheBoss4711]

As mainly a Smash player, my hardest thing to get used to in traditional fighters is hit confirms. In Smash, you can just be in neutral and get a meaty hit and react to the hitstun. In Street Fighter, for example, if I react that same way the follow-up window is already over.

[@chsi5420]

Instead of having the ability to perceive the time between hits, you are more reacting to things like sound. It becomes more just muscle memory than anything.

[@cashbag]

Single-hit confirms are really difficult even for pros. You're better off doing two attacks that combo on-hit and confirming into a special from that second move. Sf6 makes it easier because you can drive rush and be safe. You can also do safe buffers that combo on hit and are safe on block.

[@IppoX90]

Maybe change to a game that has more gatlings or reverse beats (In other words most 2D fighters) instead of links?

[@sean6253]

As someone who has played both Smash and Fighting games, I think its important to make the distinction between Melee and all other future smash games. The barrier to entry on Smash as a whole is lower then any fighting game, since all the characters control the exact same, no motion inputs, etc. New Melee players are gatekept just because the amount of tech within the game is baffling to newcommers, which is a good thing because it allows the game to have such depth. To be a contrarian, with the advent of Steve, there have been a ton of new players topping many events in Smash Ultimate, players who came out of nowhere to have impressive results. While in SF6, it would takes years in my opinion for someone new to come to the scene and be able to take sets off of players such as Daigo, Mena, etc. The same with Melee and their top players.

[@kylespevak6781]

"No motion inputs, etc" Ryu and Ken 😂

[@richardpeterjohnson5372]

in my opinion, as someone who started in smash ult and converted to SF, the idea that smash skills transfer better is more of a reflection of the resources available to learn traditional fighters. especially with the general concepts. even the most elusive concept of neutral has things like the footsies handbook with very thoughtful explanations. and this knowledge is very common among players whether they've read it or not. there really is no equivalent to the footsies handbook for smash, and most videos will just tell players "stop doing unsafe moves" or "practice good spacing." combined with the lack of a good training mode without mods, most smash players are illiterate to fighting game concepts and therefore the game is harder to pick up at a high level. making traditional fighters seem easier in comparison.

[@richardpeterjohnson5372]

also worth noting that smash is a game where punishing bad options is MUCH harder, which I think is why there's not a lot of players who migrate from traditional fighters and stick around. which is a shame cause their understanding of how to dissect a game could really benefit the smash community.

[@HirokiPlays]

Me going from Ultimate to Melee, teching everything, having mega fundies, doing fast fall lasers and jump cancel shines, knowing all the competitive Smash stuff having gone to locals often with Ultimate "Man... I suck at this game" I can't imagine what it's like for a FRESH fresh player lol

[@axis8396]

So air control in SC is a bit like DI in that when you're being juggled you can influence where you're going to go, it's naturally a lot simpler though in that in most cases you use it to drift farther so combos drop due to distance or drift in to prevent ring outs, an important distinction is that AC is just a direct influence whereas DI directions depend on knockback angle i.e. if you're launched straight left and DI straight left or straight right then there's effectively no change and the optimal form of survival DI is generally the tangent line upwards meaning if I'm getting launched to the top-left corner I want to DI to the top-right corner and vice-versa

[@thisuserpwnsnoobs]

To get a bit more technical about how air control works in calibur, the rule is that if you're in a special airborne animation like a pancake flip, you can't air control. That is how true combos are able to be performed consistently, and air control on a basic level is used to steer yourself out of combos that aren't "real." HOWEVER at the very highest level, there are setups that can exist in combos as knowledge checks, granting some combos much better damage if the opponent doesn't know the correct way to air control. But in 99% of cases at all levels, players just stick to true combos, and air traps exist as a niche layer of depth and knowledge checking you can try on your opponent.

[@leaffinite2001]

DI optimal lines actually change a bit from melee to ultimate, as ultimate made di effect how fast you move after being launched. Also i think your example is flawed, since in general survival DI is usually DI-ing in such a way as to be launched towards the top corners of the screen; if youre being launched straight at the top left corner, thats ideal.

[@kyleflournoy7730]

Ive been not only a fan of you, LK, but a high level player in smash and a bunch of traddy fighting game for over a decade now. Im currently competing in ultimate and strive. And im also a general historian of the scene at large so i just love hearing and talking about the intersections between the different communities like this. Would love to contribute somehow

[@killinswagz]

I think the one about transferrable skill levels is interesting because historically most top smash pros dont stay relevant in the metagames of other platform fighters like rivals, nasb, slap city, rushrev, etc. I get that theres a difference in the popularity in these games, but just like any traditional fighting game, some stuff transfers and some doesnt.

[@bt_11]

I often wonder how different competitive Smash history would look if it had as many new versions as FGs do. I think LK's point about games developing is underrated.

[@zantetsu75]

Speaking as an insider of the community, that's less of an issue with top players falling off at other platform fighters, and more an issue of interest. Most Smash players stick with Smash not because they prefer the "Platform Fighter" genre, but because they prefer "Smash" specifically. Melee players tend to think Melee is the best game ever made, and even if they dabble in other games, most serious players will always go back. Conversely, top Smash players who do try sticking it out in the scenes of other platform fighters they choose to play are still basically at the top of those games. VoID, a top 10 player in Smash 4, and Top 100 player in Ultimate, has held the #1 spot in Multiversus and Nick All-Star Brawl for a hot minute. NAKAT, a top 50 Smash 4, and unranked Ultimate player is also Top 5 in Multiversus to my recollection.

[@killinswagz]

@@zantetsu75 i feel like void and nakat are the exceptions and not the rule, and even then, relevancy in early meta is very different from mid to late meta

[@zantetsu75]

@@killinswagz They are exceptions, in that they actually decided to stick with those games for an extended period. My point was that most players simply *aren't* interested in those other games like that, and therefore fall off, simply because they're not really playing them anymore. I played Brawl for a bit after Melee, and realized that I liked Melee much better, so I went back and as a result my Brawl competitive relevance fell off. I'm saying that *THAT* is the "rule".

[@michael13849]

I've lived thru the era where ppl were jumping ship to play other platform fighters. As for why they dont last its 1 of 2 things. 1.They miss smash and needed a break. They didnt wanna grind the new game and quit after other ppl caught up in skill.

[@kingkrow7060]

6:09 my man forgot that tekken movement existed

[@boataccident1492]

This is great stuff, echoes a lot of things i was trying to explain to people (as an xrd chipp player, the things smash players were trying to tell me made no sense given that I have to deal with these things constantly already). Its good to hear this sort of thing from people who can accurately point out the whys and whens. Excellent and succinct!

[@Noah_1823]

Skullgirls has mixups mid combo cause of how much that game emphasises resets. There are also some defense mixups you can do while blocking cause of pushblock guard cancel as well as standard team game stuff like alpha counters, which is less prevalent than DI of course but still kinda similar in how the defender is able interact. Imo skullgirls is another game that has a high skill floor, but thats probably mostly just because the skill ceiling is high and the average SG player is really good

[@holdenchambers3986]

Also skullgirls has a weight system, as someone that plays Val/Bella/Double I learned very quickly I had not left that behind in my ssbu days. Skullgirls and smash also are pretty interesting when looking at combo system because of how often in smash you have to piece together a combo on the fly, same thing happens a lot in skullgirls.

[@lancergt1000]

5:00 mixing people up during combos is the core tenet of Killer Instinct gameplay, because combo breakers have 3 strengths and the defender has to guess the correct strength to break out so its on the attacker to mix up their attack strength

[@chloeligma3883]

An important point about smash in particular is that Nintendo is incredibly hostile towards people trying to call their game seriously. As a result, fighting game players have to learn much of the new systems and mechanics all on their own before they can begin to be successful competitively.

[@koulam]

your part about early melee players saying : " just do mindgames " is right. Hugs said on his stream that it used to be the case, but the neutral matured a lot especially since the developpement of the crouch cancelling tech. Loved the vid btw

[@redvenomweb]

I feel like a lot of these points are directly countered by the existence of the Marvel series, which predates Smash with unique character weight, highly complex movement, and also adds additional factors like meter management, character defense, team composition, widely varied assist mechanics, and so on. I think the reason why you see a few Smash players cross over to fighting games (but not the other direction) is primarily because there are lots of different competitively-viable fighting games, but on the other side it's basically just Smash and some indie stuff (both Playstation All Stars and Multiversus fell off fast and hard). So if you're already good at (say) MK but you want to play something else, there's a lot more incentive to make the small jump over to Tekken or GG or SF than there is to make the big jump over to Smash; meanwhile, if you play Smash and you want to play something else, you basically HAVE to make that jump because there just isn't much competitive meat on the bone in the platform arena once you leave Smash.

[@flipperflapper6682]

Make Smash people play KOF XIII and see how they fare I guess. Like that thing is crazy.

[@squidley5600]

very much appreciate this mini-series kinda thing your doing about the parallels of smash and traditional fgc. i've started with smash and now play it and fgc equally, and i can say you've been spitting nothin but facts. more videos like this would be heat 🙏

[@kersingi]

Fall Speed and Gravity are actually 2 different things in Smash (maybe also in other games?). Gravity is your downward velocity and fall speed is your maximum speed downward.

[@chaoticblitz]

Wouldn't fall speed just be terminal velocity then?

[@kersingi]

Basically, but they're set individually per character so i didnt want to implied they were tied. If there's two characters with similar fall speeds, but one has much higher Gravity, the higher gravity character will be easier to combo.

[@bt_11]

I think he was comparing fall speed to gravity in (mostly anime) FGs, which is probably different than gravity in Smash. The systems are different, but they both different combo theory for players to learn.

[@SuperLemonfish]

you meant to say acceleration, not velocity. But otherwise yes. these are in melee as seperate attributes.

[@kimor6903]

They are in guilty gear as well. At least strive pre-patch had both character weights and combo gravity where characters would all faster depending on various factors.

[@DrLegitimate]

This was a cool conversational video - love this kind of stuff from you! I think the observation of Melee as an 'established game' and all the stuff that comes with that is valid - the game having 20 years of 'skill floor' is an interesting observation that I haven't really thought about. Love this kind of discussion though - The Philosophy of Fighting Games™ is so fun to think about and discuss.

[@WhisperWings_]

So figured I'd throw my hat in the ring with a small story as someone who has been through the smash scene and has since moved on, I initially played a ton of smash played melee for years, picked up brawl and tried its competitive scene...then immediately dropping it, then finally Ultimate came out and it clicked, I was going to locals consistently and doing my best to improve and trying to win. I didn't end up sticking with it, which was mixed bag for me because I love Smash as a series but the experience left me with the impression that fighting games weren't for new people to engage with. between the people at my locals literally just shrugging at me when I asked for input on what I could improve on/saying "Just get better", getting told that I "Don't play the game right, (my) character isn't fun" (I was playing brawler at the time), and the over all experience being exclusive to anyone who wasn't in some very tight knit group, it was feeling like I shouldn't try. Then Mr. Terry got released and I wasn't excited for him, I had no idea what a "Fatal Fury" was, but then I tried him, now I really struggled to do motion inputs at the time, but he was SO COOL and I fell in love with his play-style, I bounced off of Ryu and Ken, but something about Terry really clicked, I decided to enter one last local with him, I had really improved and man Terry was pushing me to want to shove it to those dicks who effectively kicked me out before, I entered, I lost, but I took a set, and that rush of dopamine was addictive. The Local scene didn't change tho, I asked for input, got a shrug, heard nothing but complaining the entire time and excuses for why someone lost no matter who lost, I realized that this group probably didn't actually wanna improve and more just wanted to play Smash every week and lose a few bucks and give it to would win the local. I went home and decided to look at where Terry came from, look into Fatal fury as a series, I saw that was sooo different from what I was used to, and honestly it was off-putting enough for me to not wanna actually try it, besides the most recent game he was in was like KoF14 (? I think) and I just couldn't wrap my head around it. Fast forward a few years and I hear constant murmurings of this new game called "Guilty Gear Strive" mainly about its music, listened to it, loved it, but it was a fighting game I couldn't enjoy a fighting game, Ive tried with smash and I couldn't click with the funny Terry game, so why I here, I ended up just enjoying the music and eventually...a character came out in a time that was nearly perfectly aligned with me realizing some things about myself, Ms. Bridget Guilty Gear, it was enough to get me in the door...and while I'm still scared to try the game competitively (Probably mostly due to that really shitty Local experience with Smash) GGST has reignited my love for this genre, Bridget has been my companion through every Ramlethal laser and Pot buster, She has stuck with me while I learn of the concept of frame data, and what the hell a "Mix up" is all these things people would talk about in those locals forever ago but never explain, its been a wonderful time, Ive also learned that man....Smash players really subconsciously believe their game is the hardest, is Strive the hardest fighting game Ive ever played? no not really, Ive picked up KoF15 recently, as well as MvC3U on steam and my brain is STILL trying to fold correctly for those games, Smash isn't that hard, Smash players just need you to believe that.

[@Endless_sea_]

Smash players, at least in ultimate are TERRIBLE at explaining fundamemtals. They can talk about mechanics and facts all day but have no idea about footsies, mixups, risk reward. Stuff that gets talked about in the street fighter/gg/tekken community commonly. They usually assign a arbitrary definition to these to be whatever they want them to be lol

[@FerousFolly]

I think one of the reasons smash players struggle to explain mixups is that although the mixup might seem to be which move you use, it's more often the movement mixup into that move that actually makes the difference, and movement mixups are, for the most part (to my knowledge), a very in-the-moment type of vibe-based decision. really hard to explain why your movement mixup worked when you were just doing what felt right in the context of the set. also important to note that we can tell you about mixups when talking about movesets and certain situations, but actually getting into that situation is often a whole series of mixups in itself and those can feel more important to us while also being ambiguous in their nature and context.

[@oneb3low]

Yeah like imagine Hungrybox trying to explain how every aerial drift is actually a mixup. Impossible. The truth is that mixups in the traditional sense are very small part of melee. Yes there's always the threat of a shine grab or a 50/50 DI situation, but most of what matters is what LK called "footsies". I don't think that term accurately describes it though. In melee there's a very large heatmap of where a fast character can put a hitbox that's unreactable (say 20f). All of the bobbing and weaving might look like footsies to a trad fighter player, but it's much closer to the platform fighter version of mixups, i.e. navigating reponses to unreactable situations.

[@FerousFolly]

@@oneb3low yeah I've heard people describe smash and melee footsies as closer to jousting/fencing than footsies. like the footsies are there but there's a whole 'nother level to it that is really hard to explain to people who don't play

[@je_sus332]

It really depends on the game that is talked about. For me, the jump from smash to MK was huge with only a few similarities. Sure there were directional throws, a block button, and a super move for each character. But that doesn’t mean I’ll instantly learn the frame data of every single hit from each combo string. Back when I just started, I was overwhelmed with phrases like “safe on block”, “unsafe on block”, etc. The point is that the jump is huge from smash to any fg dependent on your choice of game.

[@void6091]

You dont even have to argue against the weight point by pointing out the exact same thing since there are a bunch of analogous factors like character size in many games that alter the combo routes you have access too (e.g. Tekken, 3S)

[@abr3127]

I’ve played a lot of melee and I’m gonna be 100% honest all the games difficulty comes from the lack of a buffer. If you have played a lot of plat fighters then the entire game would not be hard but the lack of buffer is just such a culture shock

[@Zachary_Sweis]

Virtua Fighter and DOA also have varying weight and fall speeds.

[@obviouslyanonymous]

There's one very simple answer. Because smash is one/two games, and everything else is like 50 games. For players from other FGs, smash is one of many options, so it's not fair to compare that to smash bros. players playing ANY fighting game.

[@Hikaru1468]

When I think of mix-ups in smash (Ultimate player) I mostly think of conditioning. You choose an option a few times -> the person adapts to that option -> choose different option from what they are expecting. On the other hand you just choose an option the person wouldn't expect from your character.

[@farslashenjoyer]

I like to compare the combo breaker system in KI to DI because you're still interacting after a hit is converted and the difference between getting mixed up and not is the difference between exploding and escaping.

[@michaellee7630]

3:17 doa, weight classes and stun system for launch and bound variables for combo damage scaling and juggle states

[@touhouenjoyer]

"What game has variable weight and fall speed?" I've never felt the answer to a question more in my life, shoutouts to all my +R Johnnybros

[@kenshisanki]

As a commentator and very well versed player for Soulcalibur VI, I'll let you know the DI (Air Control) system that exists in SC overall generally is pretty much a non-factor because there are enough routes for every character that do not allow the opponent to DI. I feel the system could absolutely be fleshed out more if the Devs wanted, but it seems mostly to exist as an infinite prevention and full ringout carry prevention system. Good looks for bringing up Soulcalibur though!

[@Senketsujin]

It only activates when a juggle stops being true from what I've gathered playing all the SC'S

[@kenshisanki]

@@Senketsujin yeah basically to stop you from completing looping an opponent with some sicko mode combo

[@bug-deal]

btw, as another person who went from playing a lot of melee to mostly playing "traditional" 2d fighters, i'm very glad you're making these vids. there are so few people with real experience in both, at least compared to all the loud people who primarily know one or the other.

[@joshuawinestock9998]

2:29 I think it's not so much the weight and fall speed that makes Smash unique; he mentions DI, but also the knockback system means that two combos will never be the same. You can't rely on muscle memory in Smash, you're always improvising just a little bit. I think that's neat

[@middyjohn]

As a former melee and current RoA enjoyer, I just bought strive last month and let me tell you it feels jarring to learn so many in-game techs like RC/dust/WA vs the usual "learn your character quirks" in melee/roa. Learning combos felt kinda different too like learning set combos instead of going ape creative, I'm still getting used to heavily buffered input and no DI traps but basic fg skill like neutral, baits, mixups etc still the same. Anyway, I have always been a casual fg player in bbcf and KoF but i wanna atleast try hard for strive and improve more in RoA/RoA2 this year. Wish me luck guys

[@luisenriquemendozahernande5798]

I also started with Melee, me and a friend got into Central Fiction and we both felt it was harder to get started with than Melee

[@Gamesmarts194]

tbf your first problem was starting with a BlazBlue game and the last one at that lol

[@Ganondwarf_]

The smash player’s mind cannot comprehend the concept of a blocksting.

[@zantetsu75]

I know you're trolling, but as a Smash player playing a Traditional FG, I find this hilarious. It took me a while to learn how to block XD

[@dave9515]

The fact you couldn't learn how to block quickly proves his point. Hearing your comments on smash i have to assume you are the biggest sucker of smash of all time. DI is not that deep or SDI and even in melee there are optimal combos that are always taken and the combos aren't super hard to pull off actually when you just press one or 2 buttons and hold directions. Marth's ken combo is just fair dair. Nothing deep about that. Smash players would have a meltdown learning to react to stuff like Akuma in Tekken 7. Fighting games have so much more in their neutral than smash could ever have with oki which no tech chases is not oki closest to taht was the footstool forced normal getup in smash 4, Burst, supers, wake up DP's and Supers, frame advantage and the list goes on and on honestly. I don't see a smasher learning to deal with Nier DP like some of the competitive rising players are doing. And if you mention offstage game of smash its not that deep really and in modern smash is not a big variable to the game unless a cahracter has a bad recovery. You don't have to worry about DI and SDI much at all and platfighters are actually less engaging than regular ones. Sorry but you act like you have good understanding of platfighters and traditional when you don't. Thats why you irritate me so much honestly. Anyways hyped for future fighting games and the one platfighter i look forward to is combo devils if that comes out as it looks like what platfighters has needed for gameplay changes for the longest time.

[@zantetsu75]

@@dave9515 You're free to believe whatever you like. I've been playing Platformers and TFGs my entire life of over 30 years at this point. Just because you fail to comprehend the intricacies of these interactions, and how that translates to high-level play, does not therein mean that they don't exist. I don't profess to be the greatest player around, but I've made my way through brackets on more than one occasion, taken games and even sets off of top players (in both Smash and TFGs, specifically P4A, MvC3, and GGST), and have been a credited educator and coach at these games, even for some top players. I don't need to prove myself to you, and I don't intend to try any further than this, but I will at least encourage you to try playing in the bracket of some Smash locals, or even a major and reaffirm how simple playing Smash really is, if you really believe it to be so easy. Also, good job on taking what was supposed to be a lighthearted joke *concurring* with the original poster WAY too seriously.

[@Ganondwarf_]

@@zantetsu75 Same, took me a long longer than it should have since smash taught me everything but spaced moves or landed aerials meant it was my turn after. Revisiting smash I've looked for FG stuff like strike/throw mix but jab 1 is punishable by every OoS, only threat being jab 2.

[@jbgehrlein]

One type of traditional fighting game where stage choice matters is 3D games basically every 2D game I can think of has no actual difference between stages. It matters quite a lot in Tekken and you see stage counterpick a lot whenever someone loses to Akuma they go straight to infinite for example.

[@AmaDominiCanes]

As far as 2D games go stages matter in Injustice because of the environment interactables

[@thecoolkid440]

On your point that if you're good at one genre you can be pretty good at any genre. Boxbox kinda slayin in sf6 and he did that as a side project. His combos are shit but he's pretty quick to analyze and adapt which carries pretty hard. Also had the sajam coach before bad habits could develop, but i dont think most people, even with the sajam coach diff, would have gotten from nothing to masters in sf6 as fast. The learning mentality is real.

[@viniciusalonso9784]

4:54 Idk if this counts as DI in Soul Calibur, but one of the most important mechanics is ring out, which you can throw people off the map, and one character was like very op, because she could round start do a ring out combo

[@ieatatsonic]

During the execution/Skill Floor/Legacy section, I'm glad you showed Marvel 2. I feel like that game, in terms of scene and reputation, is REALLY similar to Melee.

[@TFGamer95]

Mixing up your combo within a combo sounds like KI's Breaker System to me. I don't know if that's exactly analogous tho lol

[@TFGamer95]

Again, not sure how analagous this is but I feel like Tekken has that level of decision making when it comes to combo routes, positioning, and knowledge of what the other player's options is. It's all connected *Mind Blown meme*

[@bobbackwards8481]

I definitely feel like fgc skills transfer over to smash way more than they would give it credit for. Once took a long break from smash to play traditional fighters, when i came back to smash locals i was doing way better and using whiff punishes, counterhits, 50-50s/strike-throws, and oki to my advantage unlike before. Definitely doesn't help that smash and fgc have completely separate terminologies for similar concepts, which makes the divide look much bigger

[@foxepunz4849]

If you do another collab video in the "broken moves" style, maybe see if you could get someone familiar with tekken and other 3d fighters! I feel like we would see some unique examples

[@Ryan-tc2el]

In Soulcalibur you almost always hold away and to a side to air control optimally. Rarely, an air control can require some timing or specific direction to escape a combo. But throughout the whole series you could count the number of actual air control mixups on one hand.

[@KoAkaiTengami]

Been playing Soul Calibur for 2 decades. The air DI is called Ukemi and it does result in mixups. You can DI to the sides but you can also DI backwards or towards the opponent. This exists in every SC game. Some attacks will land if your opponent DI backwards such as long reaching verticals while DI'ing to the sides can often be caught by good tracking verticals, horizontals, or tracking kicks. When we train and practice combos, we actually often set the AI to ukemi randomly so that we can learn what is consistent and what we need to condition for.

[@Ikronix007]

So can I DI in SC2 ( GC ) I love playing Link.

[@KoAkaiTengami]

@@Ikronix007 Yes, gravity was just really strong in SC 2 so air ukemi is a lot less obvious. You still see plenty of ukemi on the ground. I only mentioned areal ukemi since it seemed more adjacent to Smash Bros DI. In fact, Astaroth (The closest to a grappler in the game) has an entire grab gameplan revolving around predicting and knowing which grab can get specific types of DI responses from your opponent.

[@Ikronix007]

@@KoAkaiTengami Understood. Love SC but def bad at it.

[@DandyAnnieTime]

I want to add that 'mixing up my opponent during my combos' IS an incredibly rare thing trad fighting games with a notable exception. The best fighting game nobody plays: Killer Instinct. In KI, this strategic concept is essentially one half of the 'pressure game' in which a combo can be best thought of as roughly equivalent to a blockstring until your opponent locks out in one way or another, only then are they truly stuck in a combo.

[@CoVa923]

I think the thing with smash(mainly ult, but even melee to a certain degree) is that when it comes to stage control or having your opponent in the corner, alot of the time that can straight up cost you the stock or the game. Some characters are straight up at their strongest when they're "supposed" to be in their most limited position, a similar thing can happen im traditional fighters too with things like wake up DP or wake up super but overall thats still a result of the player not having many options to get out the corner in the first place, smash that shit is a whole ass win condition at times. Someone made a video about a year ago explaining the difference between traditional fighters neutral and smash neutral and it shows pretty well (for ultimate) that even in an advantageous position you still have to "play on your toes" or still make a bunch of defensive options while on the offensive because of how the game works. I've been playing smash seriously and going to tournaments since 2017 and got pretty solid at ultimate and that one fact about neutral is the thing that has bothered me for the longest and is why i ended up dropping the game entirely and looked more into traditional fighting games as of late

[@N0monis]

I think the point the person was trying to make about weight and gravity came from the idea that these are much more relevant in smash than a lot of other fighting games that have them just due to every combo in smash being an air combo with varying knockback even against the same opponent due to the launch mechanic. Of course, they are wrong in saying that smash is the only game with weight and gravity lol

[@chinesemassproduction]

Former Melee player here. Melee players don't know what they're talking about most of the time. They can't wrap their heads around simplistic fighting game concepts and think just because they have mechanical skill means that they can do well in any fighting game, ignoring the fact that they get bodied universally in any other FG, and most of the time in Melee as well. There's a reason why the 5 best players in Melee stayed the same for nearly a decade and a half, because it takes more than mechanical skill to be good.

[@g0ddish434]

I remember there was an argument about melee being harder than Tekken. The response to that was the person streaming stated that in Tekken, there's no real movement, over 100 moves to study up, and to do a combo you not only need to find a good whiff punish but also find the execution. This made me realize that even if Melee does have all sorts of things to add depth. It's not the same way Tekken has where you not only need to study the game but also the characters.

[@Msanchez1120]

9:16 “i get to walk up and dp you again” 😭😭

[@GentleMouse]

DI mixups sound a whole lot like vortex to me, like "I got hit and depending on the RPS decision I make now I could either get my turn back or get hit again".

[@PotofGlue]

we need an anime game with di, its such a sick mechanic that doesnt deserve to just be limited to platform fighters

[@TheBoss4711]

Dead or Alive doesn't have weight, DI, or damage-based knockback, but its countering mechanic forces mixing up your combos without your opponent breaking out and being successful can lead to huge damage. So its similar to Smash in that aspect, despite using different mechanics.

[@darkraidragon4865]

Honestly, I think unique gameplay gimmicks are something a lot of people forget about. One of my favorite fighting games as a kid was a game called Bio Freaks on the N64. It was a 3d fighter with aerial movement AND a dismemberment mechanic.

[@jmcrofts]

Bro what is that game at 8:00 with the Modelo, and can we play it together

[@lordknightfgc]

Super smash beer melee boot up

[@jmcrofts]

@@lordknightfgc ok but idk how to play smash

[@lordknightfgc]

Under night in beer?

[@BigGooseMan]

On the topic of pressure there is alot more options for both characters at one time which I think is the main reason as to people saying its easie to get into fgc from smash because smash players are really good at covering a ton of options. (not saying fgc doesn't have alot of options in every situation but its easier to predict what sol badguy is gonna do in neutral than fox in neutral as he has more options in neutral)

[@LumeKnight]

this video is perfect cause I love having these conversations as someone who plays smash and other fighters. Regardless of what people think about either type of fighter I just want both to have the respect they deserve. They have differences, they have similarities just like anything else does, but ultimately they are all uniquely difficult and fun. Fighting games are sick af

[@LuzoroMD]

When it comes to combos, there is weight and gravity, DI, and hurt boxes to consider, and these things do exist in traditionals as well, but there's also SDI and percent. SDI is sometimes a huge deal and sometimes does basically nothing, but even during latter situations, it's still something that the opponent can do to mess your combos up. Percent is an even bigger deal, because you can't just learn combos that work at all times. In smash 4 and ultimate, there's also rage, which basically just gives you more knockback the higher your own percent is. This can be very good for taking stocks, but it can also mess up combos. There's also this combo concept, which I have seen a top player talk about. We call hit stun combos true combos, and they are inescapable since the hits link before the opponent is out of hit stun (and before that hit stun can be cancelled in ultimate.) Then we have strings, which are just connecting two "not-true" hits together. Strings that have a 2 frame gap will always work against normal characters (who don't have a 1-2 frame option.) Characters like Sheik, ZSS, Fox, and a few others have 2 frame air dodges or attacks, so strings with a 1 frame gap will still work on them. Then there are characters like Yoshi, Marth and Lucina, snake and a few others who have a frame 1 escape option. The examples I gave are all different as well. With a one frame gap, Yoshi has double jump armor (same in melee) so the Yoshi will likely still take damage, but no knockback. Marth and Lucina have frame one invincibility on their up special, so they avoid the hit entirely. Snake pulls out a grenade, which will blow up if it, so if you want to continue the combo, you'd have to hit snake without hitting the grenade or be far enough away... Otherwise, you both take grenade damage. Also, some heavies have frame 4 air dodges, so combos with a 3 frame gap will still work on them. The reason why all that is important, is because a lot of characters have bread and butter combos that are actually not true on these characters, so it also varies combos a lot. This also really isn't an argument to anything you said, I just wanted to point out a lot of things that make combos unique in smash, and also to talk about ultimate a bit since you said you like learning about fighting games you don't play much.

[@Sambroke]

Its interesting how you got into the fgc. You only hear about the people who stuck with melee or the ones that went to brawl, not about people who just moved ro a different game entirely. But it makes sense if you didn't like brawl but still wanted to move on to something newer

[@ONIGIRIKINGU]

Do people forget that in DoA weight, height, and stage change what combos work or dont based on who you use or the character the opponent uses

[@CornWashingtonFarmer]

The hardest thing about melee is that there's no proper corner. When you get down to brass tacks, there's no good answer to characters that can just run away indefinitely. Coming back from a deficit against a patient player can be more arduous than any zoning/projectile MU in a trad fighting game that I've seen.

[@Tremuoso]

I could never get to grips with tilt attacks. Long time fighting game player using arcade stick, it's so engrained to me to push buttons and move the stick really hard and firmly. I never felt in control of tilt attacks, it was so hard to only press the stick a little bit to get the correct attack you wanted.

[@neoyaku]

Great video! And spot on, close friend of mine played Melee a lot, and really got into Marvel 3, but couldn’t get into Third Strike - I am a Virtua Fighter 4 evangelist, couldn’t get into Melee and am terrible at Smash in general, but play all other Non-NRS fighting games and do well in all of them, including Tekken.

[@ZachStarAttack]

good vid. Id argue that traditional foghters have a really hard system in knowing the intracacies of frame advantage, defense, fuzzying etc... smash defense before being hit is so much more simple... plus even in trads you have burst

[@dugthefreshest]

Great video. VF has a very strict weight system. Stages matter in Tekken because some characters thrive on wall combos where others are "nerfed" without walls. Stages also matter in VF. Some characters have very high carry on combos, so having walls vs short, vs no walls is huge.

[@Avenger131]

To comment on Soul Calibur 'DI', specifically for SC6: It does exist, sorta. When someone is in the air, their character model is either spinning or not spinning. When in a spin state, there is no DI and you go linearly up and then down. When you aren't spinning you have 'air control' as it's called (instead of DI) where you can drift in different directions. Most combos people do will have the opponent character spinning the entire time until they hit the ground, normally like 2 maybe 3 hits. You will occasionally, but very rarely, see people do air-controllable combos and in that case it's usually the player knowledge-checking the opponent.

[@thegamer-ot4gh]

what i always think about as a former smash player, lapsed 09erm and strive returner is how melee guys used to talk about "priority" as an abstractly quantifiable ("more priority" "less priority" "lots of priority") property that moves had. last time i checked the term seems to have been moved to be a descriptor of the system of comparisons that determine whether moves clank or trade or whatever, which is rightfully narrow, definitely excluding a certain amount of what used to be the sense of priority, because it turns out that that part of the sense was really just about hitboxes. i don't know historically when fighting game people really developed awareness of hitbox interactions, and im not into smash enough to know how often those guys are accurately identifying the importance of hitboxes in this or that interaction but i gotta figure they're probably pretty on it now cuz the terms have changed and i know i've seen hitbox viewers. i do wonder if the pseudoscience of "priority" and maybe even "mindgames" could've been avoided if smash and fgc proper were less siloed from each other in technical language and development. not to imply that fgc hasnt done pseudoscience though i just dont know historically comparable examples

[@dave9515]

No priority is a thing. Nintendo consoles have this thing called port priority and some moves are made to beat other moves out regardless of hitbox size. There are multiple vids talking about port priority out there and the weird hitbox interactions in smash and size while it can be a factor isn't always. Priority on moves is real. The mixup thing is kinda fair but yu gotta remember how smash players have always been treated by the FGC as well so the idea of the two communities mingling seems very unrealistic.

[@zantetsu75]

There are 3 forms of priority in Smash bros. 1st is Port priority, where if a situation occurs where a collision is between two variables where everything else is equal, the winner goes to the player in the higher port number (e.g. Player 1 and Player 2, both using Mario, simultaneously collide a forward smash against each-other, Port priority dictates that Player 1's Mario wins that interaction. This mechanic was deprecated after Melee). The 2nd form is Hitbox ID priority, since most moves in Smash are made up of multiple hitboxes, each one for specific move may have certain ID flags allocated to them. If a move collides with a hurtbox with multiple hitboxes simultaneously, the box with the lower ID takes precedent. The 3rd type of priority is Damage priority. This one survives even to the new games. If two opposing hitboxes collide simultaneously, either a whiff, clank, or plow will occur, based on the damage parameters/properties of the associated hitboxes. If the damage of one hitbox is 9% or more higher than the other, then a plow occurs, invalidating the other hitbox completely. Whiffs happen if any hitboxes in the interaction are given the "transcendent" property, which usually occurs with certain special moves or projectiles.

[@bobboberson8297]

The other people replying here made many factual errors and also clearly never played smash when people still used to say "priority" and "mind games." Basically smash players used to have a very rudimentary understanding of frame data and hitboxes, so when they saw a move consistently beat other moves (either because it comes out first due to better frame data or out ranging the other move because of a better hit box) they said that move had better "priority." Now there are websites with the frame data and hitbox data of every move in the game so nobody says these things anymore. (you are aware of this, just making it clear for everyone else). There's also discord servers for most smash bros characters so information is just a lot more accessible now I think competitive smash in general was pretty niche until the last 10 years so the fgc had a pretty big head start on figuring this stuff out. If I'm being objective, even melee was not very popular until around 2013 when it got back into evo (just look at tournament attendance before and after then) and it's not like smash 64 or brawl had large scenes either.

[@zantetsu75]

@@bobboberson8297 This is mostly correct. In the popular lexicon of modern smash, we don't really use the word priority at all anymore. I know I just described a "priority", but except for the "port priority" in melee (which isn't really a thing anymore in modern competitive melee because the modded version of the game played now patched this out), we don't actually refer to these things as actual "priority" now. Hitbox ID priortity was actually describing what we would describe *now* as the mechanics between determining sweetspot vs sourspot hits of a move, like with Marth's tipper vs Roy's hilt. Also instances of actual port priority occuring in melee was actually so hyper-specific and rare that it practically never really happend in any relevant tournament game that had been recorded. That said, I agree about Melee's popularity mostly being becaue of EVO 2013. It's why I picked it back up for a few years before Smash 4 came out.

[@bobboberson8297]

@@zantetsu75 port priority is not modded out of melee. i'm not sure where you got that information but there's not even an agreed upon solution for how it could be feasibly removed if the community even wanted that. Also your assessment of port priority is off -- it impacts plenty of common situations. For example every single throw has an extra frame of hitstun if you're the lower port and higher port wins grab ties (more common than you would think in shield pressure situations). The extra frame actually matters a lot in chain grab situations (you can often do 1 more grab if you're the lower port) so this impacts a lot of match ups. I always go lower port in the sheik ditto and sheik vs marth for example. "never really happend in any relevant tournament game that had been recorded. " This is so far from the truth lmao

[@pairofrooks]

being a SF2 head going to smash, holding a button to block was weird. And then the concept of being above stage and struggling to land, even Maximilian d00d said it best, "i feel like i'm in a constant juggle state"

[@babulbi]

Melee players fellating their own game to death? I could never imagine!

[@RobSomeone]

When talking about DI, I thought LK would mention KI as a game where the person getting comboed still has input.

[@isiceradew716]

I really appreciated both this and the previous video, thank you for making them. MvC2 has DI, but it's pretty subtle. Justin Wong's video 'TOP 9 THINGS YOU DIDN'T KNOW HAPPENED IN MVC2' covers it. That stated, I don't think any other DI is near as potent or influential as Melee's. So agreed on the importance of stages being vastly greater in Smash, I feel like in slightly older fighting games stages were different lengths so some stages you had more room to retreat as a zoner, but I think that got pretty homogenized in more modern fighters. One additional note, MvC2 is a game like Melee where the tech skill floor before you get to start playing is high and none of the characters that are relevant you can bypass getting to that tech skill floor.

[@kylespevak6781]

3:23 You're not wrong, but it's not a big factor and doesn't dynamically change during the match

[@LealFireball]

To comment a bit on the subject as someone who plays melee and ultimate as well as other FGs (mostly capcom games like cvs2, umvc3, sfv, sf6 as well as dbfz and soul calibur) and has worked on Project M in the past. *Combo game difficulty:* Melee's combo system is indeed harder to memorize in vacuum because of the amount of factors that affect the opponent's knockback, but that's because you're not supposed to memorize stuff that much, the game was born from the idea of introducing so many variables at play that it is impossible to construct pre-established plans/setplay that are guaranteed to always work and so you have to adjust on the fly. That's the basis of design of everything in smash, from the percentage system to DI to analog controls to animation dependent hurtboxes/hitboxes to stale-moves to a lot of other stuff. For the game's combos all of this is offset by the very easy execution timing. You have a lot of time to decide what you're going to hit your opponent with and you can often hit them with a very large variety of moves, you can make your own routes on the fly because you have time to. In traditional FGs, specially the ones from around melee's time, you do have overall less stuff to memorize, but you have to memorize more in practice because it actually matters to memorize things like combos and oki to have a minimally solid gameplan, in melee until you get the smallest of interactions in higher levels, things work so intuitively and so conceptually blurry that memorizing stuff like that is a waste of mental bandwidth. Fallspeed definitely correlates to GG's gravity but Smash's weight is more like knockback resistance, the heavier the character the less far they're launched in addition their gravity, fall speed, DI and SDI distorting the trajectory. But that is also offset from the very, very large link windows, I'd say the overall difficulty in combos is similar but expressed differently. In Melee the real difficulty comes from the interaction during the combo and in FGs it's from actually doing the combo and also producing the situation where that combo is necessary/identifying the best combo for the scenario in advance. It is usually the trade-offs that FGs make when they want to make the combo game more interactive, it's easier for the players to deal with their combos being influenced by the opponent if they're easy to execute. One interesting thing to observe, is that in terms of combo game, Smash 4 and Ultimate have brought the combo game closer to that of other FGs, DI doesn't happen until you are launched into tumble (when your character would be knocked down after being launched) and the linking windows have been heavily reduced, you have a comparatively smaller amount of frames to hit a small selection of moves that will link from that attack at that percentage, the influence of fallspeed on knockback has been almost nullified as well, with weight being the biggest factor. So memorizing stuff like compartimentalized scenarios like percent ranges, stage position and the opponent's weight is a much bigger factor. Not to mention have the buffering system made frame data more important. *Transferrable skills:* Personally I think that the difficult of the movement in melee has been exaggerated over time, it's definitely difficult and more difficult than other FGs where movement is freer like marvel. But I highly doubt that it's harder than say, tekken's movement. From talking with other FGC players getting into smash and listening to people like James Chen comment about it, the thing that really makes it difficult to traditional FG players is that the controls are analog, there are platforms, and that you can self-destruct. The controls are one of the skillsets that transfer easily from smash to FGs but not really the reverse, getting someone who has only played digital control FGs for years to do a tilt attack (specially doing an uptilt without jumping) definitely takes time, specially on more recent games where the control stick is more sensitive. In terms of transferrable skills, mechanically, def traditional FGs are simpler since they're digital and value consistency a lot more, but the conceptual skills, such as understanding neutral, advantage and disadvantage, how to manipulate your opponent and etc, I'd say it's perfectly mutually transferrable. But with how blurry things are in smash, these skills I'd say are harder to grasp in smash, you might learn it but it's harder to understand it rationally because the scenarios have so much variation. This is why I think it's very good for smash players to play other FGs, learning one of them will usually make you better at smash and understanding repeated scenarios, idk about the reverse since I don't have the experience. *DI:* I've seen a lot of people compare Soul Calibur's air control with Smash's DI but it's only tangentially similar, in SC if you gain air control after you're hit in the air, and you can do it into any direction in the XZ axis and it's more of an infinite prevention/anti-stupid easy ring out system that doesn't interact with every air combo in the game, the best combos aren't air controllable because they use special air stun states. In smash, from the very first hit, you can distort the trajectory when you're launched by a few degrees (max 17 in melee, max 11 in ultimate) in the XY axis by holding the stick at a max of 90 degrees away from the trajectory of the move you're hit by (so if a move sends at 45 degrees you'd need to hold the stick at either 135 or 305 for max distortion, the angle of the move may vary with your percentage or with which hitbox you've been hit by), the DI direction is decided when hitstop ends, can't change it during hitstun. This also plays with SDI which is changing the point you're launching from by tapping a direction during hitstop. In ultimate it also adds or subtracts a bit from the KB velocity if you hold up or down respectively if a move isn't too vertical in their launch angle. While they're similar superficially it's hard to compare them because they serve different functions, imo the closest thing to Melee DI level combo interaction I've see in other FGs would be KI 2013's combo breaker system.