Thinking about when not to BLUFF and why

[@CrushlivePoker]

What are the reasons for bluffing into a dry side pot?

[@brianfarley4814]

I'm not really following this logic in a cash scenario, especially as it pertains to the turn. I think bluffing turn makes sense because you have too much equity to fold turn, basically regardless of what the short stack has, and you can reasonably represent a lot there. I don't think you can represent very much on the river, so I agree with that point. As a side note, if I'm playing with a splashy player who is all-in and a tight player who is not, I think semi-bluffing makes a lot of sense. 1. I might be good vs the all-in guy. 2. if the splashy player wins, the money is still actively in play. 3. If I let the tight player win, then they might well put the money into their vault.

[@ZeraLord]

I don't see any reasons, I agree with you. Like maybe if the A of hearts shows up and you want to bluff the flush, but the problem is that 1) you aren't holding any blockers, and 2), you hand is weak enough to take a line from Bart "accidently lose". Like you bluff on a heart, and the V sigh calls with his A5o thinking he isn't good, but might have a chance.

[@FefeLeVrai]

When you look at your crotch and see that the guy all-in is on a draw. As your bluff has better high card value than his hand, you win at showdown.

[@modestomouso1234]

@@FefeLeVrai crotch theory optimal

[@pokerqAK47]

Only one. Fancy play syndrome 😄 I have that too but not in dry side pots

[@mylesberg5731]

Thanks for posting my call-in Bart. I appreciate everyone's comments, positive or negative. I'm here to learn and get better, which is why I subscribe to CLP.

[@gernotg8480]

DEAR MYLES PLEASE HELP ME

[@davidtalbot9325]

You're a player. That's clear. Your rationale for betting the river is not wrong. Comments to the contrary are simply missing the point. And by the way, that dealer should be fired. It is totally unacceptable to advise a player in a hand. I mean...holy shit.

[@joeyglees]

Boy do I have an angleshoot story for you. I was playing 1/2 and got it all in on the turn with a flush draw vs 2 pair. We show our hands, the river makes my flush. My opponent says "Hey dealer, I wanted insurance but you didn't offer it. You have to redeal the river." We argue about this for some time until the manager finally makes the call to shuffle the river back into the deck and redeal the river, much to my dismay. (Villain is somewhat of a donator to the game so I think that's why they decided to let him have it this time). So now we're about to deal the river again and the dealer asks if he wants insurance. "No," he replies... I am fuming. Luckily I still hit my flush on the river for a second time. But F that guy.

[@pot_kivach160]

It seems you were in some kind of kindergarden where teachers are bad. It was your call to stay in that garden after the incident. That’s one of the worst poker stories i heard.

[@desean3402]

It’s hilarious how people call in to defend their bad plays instead of just taking advice from a pro

[@mylesberg5731]

I didn't defend my play (whether it was good or bad), I simply shared my thinking as to why I thought my play had merit. I respect Bart's advice, and wouldn't make this play again in the future..

[@desean3402]

@@mylesberg5731 my man that was less about you than it is other calls I listen to. Other people legit sound like they are more interested in being right than being successful

[@mylesberg5731]

@@desean3402 In that respect, I don’t disagree with you. Thanks for clarifying.

[@modestomouso1234]

@@mylesberg5731 here’s the thing though; the play worked. I agree with you that SB probably had you beat and you needed to get him outta there to win the hand against a really bad fish who probably has nothing (which was correct). Sure the play might have some theoretical issues, but in a live game it worked as intended and was probably a good exploit.

[@mikecooper5780]

I know right ?! Haha 😂🤣

[@JMTavares7]

"My reads, are pretty accurate, most of the time"

[@caryrosenthal9916]

Yea thats a "God's gift to Poker" comment

[@mylesberg5731]

Isn't it funny that my read was accurate though? I don't claim to be "God's Gift" but I do have confidence in my game.

[@jcw8955]

@@mylesberg5731 Amazing read dude

[@mightypensword]

@@mylesberg5731 Don't worry about it. Two people can say 'i'm usually right,' and one will be bragging, while the other will simply be telling the truth. No one will know who is who. People just love to chop at egos on this channel. If anything, they're just exposing flaws in your social game.

[@davidhoekstra8671]

@@mylesberg5731 If you have accurate reads, why would you need advice, especially semi-GTO based advice? An accurate read makes GTO and even general poker advice irrelevant. This case is a clear example. Given just the hand as it happens, bluffing here is a bad play. Given your read though, bluffing becomes a good play. So your read makes any advice you might get from Bart irrelevant.

[@Jaffna1g]

I really think his riverbed is extremely good and here’s why. 1. If he gets the small blind to fold he is basically free rolling 2. Because there is a dry side pot his bet looks much stronger and going to get more folds 3. The likelihood of beating two players at showdown S really low and if you think about it this Hass to be one of the worst hand hero is going to show up with on the river. So it makes perfectly sense to turn it into a bluff in a situation where he’s going to have a lot of value bets and where I think the small blind is folding 12 combos kq etc. If sb folds and he lose the pot anyways he is only losing three dollars but he did give him a better chance of winning t main pot. Awesome scenario if you ask me

[@JoshCosta]

He’s not free rolling because he has to beat the BB or he loses the entire pot. If BB had more money behind it could be okay but BB had $3 left. Which is nothing. Just so happened that he doesn’t even know the difference between blackjack and poker

[@stuckonluck]

This channel is gold. Helps me to understand fish logics.... 😎😎😎

[@Namod23]

I don’t often write in but I REALLY like this 400$ river bet! Getting some sort of crappy queen who led the turn to fold... perfectly sized to fake like you want a call against that same first player when the ace hit... of course it won’t always work but I think this is a well done play, truly.

[@TrueGrantsta]

Hero had a good read on the hand and made the correct play. V1 is playing this like he had QJ, and V2 is playing like he had a random draw. Getting V1 off a queen is huge, and not very hard on this runout. Bart seems obsessed with the fact that V2 couldn't be folded out of the hand for $3 (even though he could in fact be), and ignoring the fact that V1 is much more likely to be ahead of him than V2, and that folding out V1 increases his chances of winning the pot inordinately. Maybe it's not "GTO" but it was the correct play in this spot if people actually can figure out what these bet sizings tell us about the villains' hands.

[@Namod23]

@@TrueGrantsta I agree. Bart is a far better poker player than me of course but IMO the key question that merits attention is, Assuming V2 could have anything (or nothing in this case), what hand would V1 lead on turn and check on river? I think it's worth 400$ to find out and a good-to-great bet.

[@estegerset]

Problem here is only the queen folds.. if he spiked the ace... He calls

[@BishopNE1]

@@estegerset Does he? Many players make folds here for $400 rivers in multiway pots in my cardroom. They don't look at pot odds much and just thinkg "Wow $400, i dont think my Ax is good here"

[@stevenundisclosed6091]

I think this guy is attacking the big blind's image rather than thinking about the hands he could logically have.

[@RyanDepauloDegenerateGambler]

Steven Undisclosed it’s amazing “he’s trash. Horrible. Don’t have a read on him yet” lol no read yet

[@modestomouso1234]

@@RyanDepauloDegenerateGambler BRUH when the hell you gonna stream again? We need our vicarious degen tingles you scumbag! 😆 Oh btw I was playing the $50 $70k Sunday Special on stars with your boy Boris last night.

[@markr8250]

I had a similar questionable muck story. Playing in the same 2-5 at Borgata (15 months ago) in a limp happy game, I got AK off on the button. There was a limp and an MP raise to 25 which the HJ and CO called. I 3 bet to $105 and it folded around so I threw my hand in the muck... or so I thought. Apparently, the CO still had his cards. Dealer called floor who ruled that since my cards weren't quite mixed in I could take back them back. (The rest of the hand was uneventful... CO thought he had a read on me because I was so eager to take it down. He called and folded AJ to a delayed C bet on a paired low board.)

[@jowrjowr]

oh my goodness do i ever not like that river bet. just check it behind.

[@ibrahimahmad1055]

I think it's actually pretty solid. Wanted to get small blind off a strong range like 2 pair and if BB calls then what, you're losing 3 more dollars?

[@Love1isall]

Unless he's some how certain that villain 2 has a busted flush draw, or some weird random weaker hand, a bet at the end is indeed pointless.

[@harbingerofepiphany3155]

Agreed" I was more interested in the BB hand throughout this whole ordeal J8 KJ QJ KQ AX-draws" a bit overly optimistic to suggest "OH" he just has a lower flush draw almost always here!!! 🤣 lmao.. even if he is a complete 🏧 doesn't matter!! And as for the SB I don't mind the play at all but I would be prepared for the hero call occasionally seeing how we are representing pretty much KJ and didn't blast back on the turn before a scare card could come" I would not be surprised if he called given the odds! So given the combination of one or both of those occurrences I would always be checking it back in this spot! I'm certainly not going to put in more money to lose more or win zero most a big chunk of the time.

[@shrekogre6597]

That kings story was awesome

[@JMTavares7]

Something I don't understand, maybe the caller can clarify. If the dude was mucking why did it even matter if he was all in? His reason for mucking is he believes he lost the all-in to such a high degree he doesn't even want to show his hand to make sure. So why would being told "you're not all in" make any kind of difference and why would he put the $3 in if he was just trying to muck anyway??

[@Gos1234567]

Yea i dont get that at all,makes no sense,first i never understand people mucking without seeing the others hands anyway.

[@seanmccafferty2296]

Exactly. It's a fold, not a muck

[@chaybro1]

I think you went a bit easy on the caller here Bart. I’m not a professional but this seems pretty bad? If he gets called he loses $400 almost certainly and if the bb folds he can still lose to the ‘bad player’? Plus there’s still a chance he has the best hand anyway. This feels like a spot where Rec players like myself make big errors using flawed thought process and spunk cash. Maybe I’m the one looking at it from the wrong angle but this feels like a very bad idea 99% of the time 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@yeeluvspizza]

Bart: I'm just looking at the hands that beat you hehehehehe. Savage.

[@analogmike1534]

I'm inclined to think that the caller had the best hand on the river & the $400 bet was only getting worse to fold & better to call.

[@JAKTPLO]

KT, KQ, Q8 or QJ calls river? i dont think so. What about Qxhh? or Axhh? I'm not saying the bet was good or not, but there are a couple of better hands which fold.

[@MXDRE907]

I could totally get on board with the callers logic. I’m surprised that Bart couldn’t see the value in folding out the other player who likely checked the river with a made hand not strong enough to bet but with some showdown value that can beat JT and showing down heads up vs a fish who can easily be on a naked fd or worse pair. Either way he only loses an extra $3. I liked the logic there given the river action and player profiles.

[@charlesnewborn3760]

As a poker dealer myself, I don't understand the dealers logic myself. Even the WORST dealers wouldn't ask something like this as it makes NO SENSE in the context of the hand. Are you sure you heard it exactly right Myles? The only possible scenario I can think of is Villian was so spaced out he thought he somehow was winning pot and everyone folded and somehow the dealer KNEW thats what he was thinking. His follow up action with retrieving his cards, flipping them over, then throwing in the $3 kinda points to this. Clearly he has some showdown value so I think he would never be folding for $3 ESPECIALLY if he hasn't seen heroes cards yet.

[@SerErryk]

Dude wouldn't fold a pair literally getting 200:1 odds. Something don't smell right.

[@bobbybeef69]

"my reads are pretty accurate most of the time" -Every 1/2 shitreg on the planet.

[@sk8rdaniel]

I thought thr bet didnt have merit but if the bb is suuuper wide and the sb is likely to fold it starts making sense. It is just one of those specific situstions that on paper doesnt make much sense.

[@cerealmilk6877]

he cant retrieve his hand after mucking it. i live in northern california sacramento area. i was playing a 1/3 game sitting seat 1 and the dealer told me always keep a chip on top of your cards or protect them really good bc if your cards even TOUCH the muck pile its DEAD. PERIOD. so once it touched any other card its dead

[@fredsmit3481]

Where was this played? I play 2 5 in Maryland and they don't allow the 1's to play other than small blind. In Maryland you can only call/raise in multiples of 5. If you put all your chips including 3 singles, the dealer will push the 3 singles back to you and give you the all in button. Maybe the player thought they were playing by those rules. I'm not sure which is more common - being able to raise by less than multiples of 5 or not. If raising only in multiple of 5's is more common, and that particular casino has unusual rules to let the 1's play then it may not be so bad to remind the player that he is not all in.

[@guybrushthreepwood8174]

"I have a pretty premium hand here" ....ummm.. but you're playing regular hold em not short deck. These players are going to call all day with Ace 10 King 10 Queen 10. How in the world is Jack 10 premium?? And apparently the caller still believes his hand is premium on the river...

[@mylesberg5731]

On the river I knew my hand wasn't the best hand, therefore, I believed my bluff (not a value bet) would work. I used the term 'premium' loosely.

[@JAKTPLO]

i'm not listening to anyone's advice who types out 'King 10' rather that using KT

[@akfox19D]

JTs is a pretty good suited connector. You'll often flop top pair and turn a straight flush draw, and you can bluff alot of rivers with it profitably.

[@pot_kivach160]

@@akfox19D/ rofl!

[@jamiealexander7665]

@@JAKTPLO why?

[@Mathemagical55]

If we assume hero is 50-50 to win against the BB then bluffing $400 is breakeven when the SB folds half the time. If the SB is folding more often then it's a good bluff.

[@FefeLeVrai]

If he has a 50% chance to win aganst each player individually then he has a 25% chance to win against both, which is the only way he can win the pot.

[@Mathemagical55]

@@FefeLeVrai Try to read what I actually wrote. Of course he's not 50% to win against the SB. The SB usually has at least a queen. What I said was that *if* the SB folds to his $400 bet half the time then it's a breakeven play.

[@FefeLeVrai]

@@Mathemagical55 I understood your post very clearly, you're the only one who doesn't understand here. If SB folds half of the time it is not a breakeven play. It is only a breakeven play if you win the pot half the time. Even when SB folds, you only have a 50% change to win the pot against BB by your own assumption. So your bet only wins you the pot 25% of the time.

[@Mathemagical55]

@@FefeLeVrai Yes it wins 25% of the time and that is breakeven. What you're failing to see is when the SB folds you get the $400 back regardless.

[@BishopNE1]

Wait, did the SB reveal what they had?

[@xanderlinde8746]

I’m blasting river to get V1 off QK, 2nd guy has king hi hearts

[@eliteexotics2209]

If you planed to bluff the river you should have raised to turn to create a side pot.

[@iWitness777]

Dealer could ask if the bb was folding, but not coach him by reminding him he's not all in, that's a mistake by the dealer....

[@jeremymorley5670]

This is absolutely what the dealer should have done in this situation. I would have grabbed his hand, kept it face down, and just looked at him and said "fold?" -- If he motions or verbalizes any semblance of confirmation then I instantly mix his hand in the muck, push pot to the caller, and then kill caller's hand. Dealer absolutely should not tell, coach, point out, or verbalize to BB he's not all in. But on the flip side, dealer should not just instantly kill BB hand either because as caller stated it was still a foot away from the muck, and BB could have meant to flip his hand face up. But also interestingly, at some casinos at 2/5 the $1 chips dont play on any street except for posting the blinds. This isn't too common but I've seen it.

[@BishopNE1]

The best dealers never say anything at all. If I was the dealer, I would have grabbed the hand and slowly dragged it into the muck, giving him about 2 seconds to realize a mistake but after that it's dead.

[@thaThRONe]

The bluff isn't worth it. You're either behind and will get called, or ahead and everyone going to fold especially knowing that the other guys is practically all in. Also you leave yourself open for a even bigger bluff depending on how aggressive the table is.

[@kennyvoller5419]

Premium hand??

[@stevenl9388]

MP2?

[@lewismilesbarber1]

Wtf lol. I think we found the fish in the game.

[@revbenball]

Does he always have everyone covered?

[@davidsilverberg5077]

I think that’s the question that Bart failed to address 😜

[@KraphtOne]

I actually disagree with bart and agree with the caller completely... for the first time in ever... He's getting a QJ or QK to fold all day... and the other dude was playing so passively that he either hit the straight or he didn't... his money is already in there anyway who cares... It's not like the all in guy jammed and now you're bluffing a third guy away for no reason because the all-in clearly has a made hand....

[@mylesberg5731]

I appreciate you defending my play (whether it was considered the right play)! Thanks Fox.

[@iWitness777]

Ya, it was an ok play, depending on the player. I'm thinking he dealer could have asked if the BB was folding, but not helped him by saying he's not all in...

[@BishopNE1]

I believe this was the right play here, KJ folds all day as well. I believe in the "read" or "Feel" portion of this as well, where you know you are beating the maniac all in and just need to get the semi-nit to fold a marginal holding.

[@1981lemberg]

Queen Jack falleds on a river so it was a good bet. It was smart for him to bet 400. I'm going to disagree with you. There's plenty of hands that beat him fold on a river to a $400 bet Queen 10 k10 even some two pairs

[@pot_kivach160]

2:30 why bet small?

[@CanadianLoveKnot]

Did he have the table covered?

[@mylesberg5731]

I did

[@CanadianLoveKnot]

@@mylesberg5731 Do you always have the table cover? lol

[@mylesberg5731]

@@CanadianLoveKnot Almost always. Lol.

[@CanadianLoveKnot]

@@mylesberg5731 So the usual. lol

[@WillPage]

BB must have thrown his cards face up. Just makes absolutely no sense otherwise.

[@mattfox5933]

This guys hand beats nothing and loses to almost everything.

[@liyexiang666]

j9 4 recreation player is not that bad actually

[@Oheeeoh]

Poker isn't dead yet.

[@JeffMartin84]

That dealer needs to STFU. Just needs to muck the cards and move on.

[@shtcoinmaxi1367]

Why call in if you already have all the answers in your head?

[@mylesberg5731]

In game, I went with my read that the play would work and it did. Doesn't mean it was the correct play, which is obviously why I called it in.

[@shtcoinmaxi1367]

@@mylesberg5731 true man I can't disagree with that . After listening to the call again I can see you just wanted different perspective

[@kostispanselinos6778]

A. Your reads aren't that good, this is pure confirmation bias. B. It's a terrible river bet, I don't like the logic and I hate the sizing. C. That dealer and I would have a fucking problem when he basically instructs the guy to call.

[@DarkTruth1]

This hand is a horrible spot to bluff. Sometimes you don't need a "sliver of showdown" or bluff as options. Sometimes you just "give up". Unless you had a pure read/info on all the players, this hand makes no sense as a bluff. What are you claiming you have and remember you just flatted the turn. Suprised villian folded here but I highly doubt this works even close to enough to be +EV

[@mylesberg5731]

In game I thought it would work and it did bc I had a “pure read” as you mentioned. I would consider a larger river bet or check in the future though.

[@pdxshredder6883]

Yeah 2p+ is raising turn all day, so when the river bricks you can’t have any good hands. SB should call if he has anything but he probably just had a draw in this spot.

[@mylesberg5731]

@@pdxshredder6883 SB had 2pr (Q10). Not sure what you mean?

[@mylesberg5731]

@@pdxshredder6883 Plus, 2pr isn’t raising the turn, as KJ makes the nuts on that board. Doesn’t seem like you listened closely to the hand. 🤷‍♂️

[@pdxshredder6883]

@@mylesberg5731 I mean if hero had 2 pair or better he would raise turn since you don't want villian to draw to a flush or straight for free. So when the river bricks hero can't really have many strong hands, so villian should be calling lighter.