Composer Chat: How to Grow Your Career

How do you grow a career as a film, games or TV composer? Composer Guy Michelmore explains how careers develop for most composers and the things you need to do and crucially the things you must avoid in order to have a long and successful career. He also looks at why “making a living” as a full time composer might not be for everyone.
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[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Find out more about the ThinkSpace Education Online Postgraduate programme; www.thinkspaceeducation.com/postgraduate • Fully accredited University of Chichester Master’s Degree • Mentored by world-class professional composers • Help finding employment after graduation • Study 100% online with super flexible schedules • 96% graduation rate • Trustpilot 4.7* Excellent - Whatuni 4.8*

[@exquisiteoath]

As a bloke watching this from my daj job amd dreaming of big swishy scores... this is exactly what I needed to hear today.

[@DelanceyThrone]

I'm in the same boat. Good luck!

[@JeanLoupRSmith]

Always appreciate these little composer chats Guy, they're very insightful. For my part, I'm still looking for that first paid opportunity but until that comes there are always unpaid projects here and there. Networking doesn't always have to start with a paid job... at least that's what I'm hoping.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Correct - we will return to that topic

[@IHBable]

Think Space Education really have got the composer's interest at heart, and they offer some great courses.

[@Thom726]

It seems so obvious when you say it but networking is the key to success. You are your own best salesman, and the product you sell is your talent! Great video Guy!!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Thank you

[@realrael3550]

Best key to success is making good music...

[@adammortonmusic]

Man I love these videos. The casual chats are so good! Keep them up 🤟

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Trying to do weekly if I can - plenty to say!

[@memarkiam]

I did it slightly differently. I’m not staying this is the right approach for anyone, but I’m happy with it. At 25 - having been dedicated to music since I was 9, and with a degree in Music Theory and Composition (with a minor in jazz piano performance) I concluded I couldn’t make a living creating the music I wanted to, and decided I’d go into business to make some money, with the intention (hope!) of retiring in 10 years and getting back to my music. It actually took 30 years! I did some music along the way, I’m the limited time I had available, but not much. Then, at the age of 56 I finally sold my business and retired. The question then was did I still have any music left in me? The answer was yes! In the last 3 years or so I’ve created and uploaded about 4:30 worth of music to the various platforms. While my original aim was to do film scoring, now I just write for myself. I don’t have any directors, producers etc to please. No artistic compromise - other than my own limitations! I’ve found it hugely satisfying. Of course I haven’t made a single penny from my music, and really can’t see how I ever will. But thankfully that’s not what I’m doing it for. I’d rather li e a simple life now and do my music, than live an extravagant live without it. I paid my dues in the 30 years of non-music work! I’m very happy with my situation, and feel very blessed to be able to focus on music now. As I say, I’m not saying this is the right path for anyone else. But it’s worked for me.

[@craigwilliamdayton]

@memarkiam ... That sounds like the perfect path. I think you will be much further ahead in life and a good deal more happier than many (most?) people on this post. I wish you all the happiness the world has to offer. Thank you for sharing your story with us.❤

[@masonbuckleyoffical]

As someone who is has shifted gears from music to the business aspect of healthcare, this post has really struck home. Thanks for the post @memarkiam

[@craigwilliamdayton]

Guy says "reach out". I say don't do it. You have found your joy. Be happy with that. No need to pay people to find something you already have. That doesn't make sense, though it most certainly would make more money for Mr. Michelmore.

[@craigwilliamdayton]

@@masonbuckleyoffical Yes, @memarkiam has made a very important post and point, and I wish others would latch onto it. Music will always be there for you. It's not going away. There is nothing wrong with working business for healthcare and continuing to develop your love and skill for music. You can do that on your own through self study. No need to fork over your hard earned money to what might be considered an endless money-sucking machine. Just my opinion...after over 20 years of dealing with it. You're better than this.

[@memarkiam]

@@craigwilliamdayton thank you so much!

[@bigavsha]

Hearing you talk about deciding which jobs to take (commcercial vs art-house) really hit a spot for me there. I quit my hi-tech job around 2 years ago to produce and compose full time, and these sort of decisions just came swooping in once money got tight. Thank you for this great video.

[@stevesm2010]

I do love your honest, no nonsense, realistic approach. Great vid, cheers.

[@BartlomiejDziadosz]

You're doing wonderful job! Thank you for that!

[@TheClassicalSauce]

Long time subscriber to your channel, Guy, Great to see you still at it. Love from the states.

[@JamesMichaelStevens]

Thanks, Guy! Always good and practical advice.

[@westheartmusic]

Another great vlog Guy - I can totally relate to the making a living scenario - as much as I’d love to do this full time I can’t see how I’d do that at the age I’m at ie more senior to a lot of the folk probably trying to climb the ladder. However, I still compose and have done some media composing in my spare time - not for the money, but for the pure love of composing music 🎵 Love your vlogs and get a lot from them - thanks 🙏🏻

[@Billyboy571]

Thanks Guy, this is 100% on the nail and as a fellow writer working in very similar circumstances, please keep the great content coming👌🎶

[@BarryDoubletBoardGames]

Very useful. Keep it coming

[@nicholaswheeler1311]

This is very encouraging to hear. And helps manage expectations. It starts with keeping your full time job, and then picking up bits of composing as you go along, part time. And then it grows from there. Very helpful advice.

[@kid_ney4145]

This might be the most useful advice, concerning my music and my job, I've ever gotten so far. Thanks a lot Guy. 👍

[@vitaminfian]

Thank you for this

[@tealeaf_green]

I've been watching your videos for a long time, and attended a recent online open day. This video, though, speaks so directly to what I've been hoping for, that it actualy makes me feel like it might be possible -- I suddenly feel like I've been given 'permission' to think about it as seriously as I want to. Thank you so much!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

You are very welcome - reach out to Lucy who is the first port of call and has conversations with incoming students and a grad of our MA herself. [e-mail]

[@JureJerebic]

Fantastic video, everyone should watch this

[@walterblazewicz3160]

Thanks for this one! I'm a mid-lifer with an established career, family, etc but want to make time for more music composition. Granting myself the permisson to believe that music doesn't have to be a full-time job is quite liberating.

[@claywilkins9627]

Thank you for your wonderful informative talks.. ...MUSIC IS IMPORTANT. .!!!

[@anothervibe]

Love your Channel Guy already for a few years! Learned alot over the years...Greetings from a South African living in Prague...Please hola at me when you heading this side of Europe..Love and Greetings...Elton

[@alontrigger]

Excellent advice!

[@AlexKurilovMusic]

Thank you for speaking on the topic of balancing day job career and music. A lot of such videos speak only about young composers entering their work life. But there's a lot of us who started in other fields who found their passion in music. I used to think about giving up my day job for music, because it seemed to be the only true way to realize my passion. But lately I've come to the same conclusion that it wouldn't be wise for the exact reasons you mentioned. Working music full time is not an exciting dream job. There's a lot of not so exciting filler/commercial/churn writing. I would rather keep it as my passion work at leisurely pace. Of course it also limits the opportunities, because the need to get food might force you to seek opportunities more actively and make more risks, but this way of life is for the most unrelenting.

[@dornbunthorn]

You teach me a lot thank you 🙏 ❤🙏 from Cambodia

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

You're very welcome

[@Pax30001]

Thank you for sharing!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

No problem

[@jarodvmusic]

I feel really good about the choice I have made in life from watching this video. I am choosing to compose as a hobby, but a hobby that is a huge part of my life. I am super passionate about it but do not look at it as a source for income therefore I am spending my time teaching and studying composing, and I just finished a bunch of videos about counterpoint. Now I am going to be teaching and studying more about composing. Starting from chamber music and growing to the orchestra. Not having to rely on money allows me to have the freedom to take this the route I want to. Thanks for this video! By the way the first Movement of my very first Violin Sonata is going to be released on my channel in the next few days!

[@Shuniverse]

I love your realistic approach about the whole career thing. That hybrid model was and will be my go-to model for my future. Stable income on the one hand, relatively great freedom in creative work on the other. I also realized that switching between those different workplaces can change my perspectives and I get new ideas to work on. Very refreshing. But sure, having more time to work on creative works is what I am also looking for. Anyway, thanks Guy, for all your informative videos from the very inside of the todays composers world.

[@jaymurray6051]

Why are you such a wonderful man ?

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

:)

[@KennethGonzalez]

I know many people think about what they want to do from a knowledge, skills, and abilities perspective. I think that is why many come to KZbin -- learning what's needed to be successful and engaging in DIY projects to get experience. While there's nothing to argue about personal/skills development, a key learning is the realization that business is *all about relationships*! Any endeavor worth pursuing requires cultivating connections and building relationships that open opportunities to engage in the work each of us wants to do. That way, when you've got the chops to execute, you'll (eventually) have the opportunity to demonstrate it. Avoiding that "until you're ready" (or you *feel* ready) only delays things, pushing it into a far off, uncertain future. Great perspective, Guy. I think your guidance on this is invaluable. And, yes, I'm totally happy to do the toilet brush commercial! LOL 😛 As with any exercise program, you build both skill and muscle by "getting your reps in"

[@markelvinstudio]

Very good advice

[@muso346]

Thanks for this Guy. Where is a good place/site to find student films/short films to pitch for?

[@jimrogers7425]

Back in 2004-ish, I helped build a garage studio for Michael Giacchino. At the time he was working on the hit TV show Alias. Several years previous to this, he had been working at Disney in an office job, while at night was writing music for video games. One of the video games that he wrote for was quite popular and, oddly enough, J.J. Abrams loved to play that particular game. J.J. made note of who the composer was and contacted him about writing for some 'little show' that he was working on, ALIAS, and the rest is history. However, MG was also contacted about writing for another video game... Band of Brothers. In the pitch meeting that Steven Spielberg was attending, MG gave his pitch and was overwhelmingly hired. At the end of the meeting, being somewhat ignorant of the process, Spielberg apparently turned to his assistant and said something to the effect of, "And you'll be booking the orchestra section for this as well," not realizing that live orchestra was NOT used for video games. However, the assistant being too afraid to share this with his boss said something to the effect of, "Yes, I have..." or "Of course...." So Band of Brothers was the first video game music track to use live orchestra. MG was a very nice, easy-going guy then and very easy and fun to be around. Just thought you'd all enjoy that story. Thanks for the great video, Guy!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Great story!

[@coolvibesradio3267]

what I'm missing ATM is the first step. how do you find the first little "horror" director? How do you establish yourself and let others recognise you as an aspiring composer? how do you build a portfolio before getting any work?

[@coolvibesradio3267]

very often in these videos the very first step is the one that is gloss over. it's is more interesting what happened after but it's not in the grasp of a beginner

[@LeeGee]

I have found there is a whole world of small, indie film makers who can't pay much (if at all) and can't really offer much direction, but can give you an IMDB credit.

[@Itsleakim]

My top tip for ANYONE who wants to get into any business is to start hang out in Schools where they DO NOT teach your profession and become friends with some of the students there. There are tons of film students who have to make short films as their graduation project. And if there are no musicians around in their school, you will be their first choice.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

OK we'll do that

[@linzenmeyer]

Yes, please...because NOT being established means not being able to afford flying to meet them for lunch lol

[@LearnCompositionOnline]

excellent, it is really like this

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

You are welcome

[@skelligringphotographyandw7012]

Guy, the bit you missed was how she gets the work on the low budget horror short, in the first place. For a lot of composers starting out, the problem surely is how to get the first job? I'd love to see one of your excellent videos that addresses that conundrum.

[@duarte_ventura]

Hi Guy, I started composing music for a theatre play, and the company's director asked me to create music for two more plays, just as you mentioned 😀

[@BraddersMusic]

Interesting video Guy but how to you get to the first position shown! This went from 0-60 in 4 secs. Networking is important but how do you present your compositions to people who may be interested but have little to no idea who you are! This first hurdle likely comes down to being in the right place at the right time! Please advise

[@jgrgurichmusic]

As a creative professional who has been doing it full time for several years now, I can definitely relate to this video.

[@larsandersen2757]

Do you have some advice how to find and land the first job the “horror movie” in the example?

[@dafingaz]

Gems

[@andrey-on8bq]

I've been doing both personal and commercial music since 2015. It was great in first 2-3 years. I was living with music in my country in the east Europe. I thought I'm on a path of Hans Zimmer etc lol... And I thought it always will be like that - up and up! I developed strong network of directors, producers and editors. I maintained those relationships and kept cold approaching to get more ppl in my network. I made music for Fujifilm, Subaru, P&G, GE, Jeep etc. A couple of tracks from my album were synced in 2 big US tv shows. Then I got 2-3 years of almost no projects. It was mentally draining. I had a lot of self doubt so I decided to practise even harder. But universe just cut me off from any opportunity. Like people came and disappeared for - 2-3 years in a row. I kept my psychic in good shape by working on my personal work etc. I lived in very cheap country and it was ok to not have a job with that currency rate. Now I live in Canada. I started my life from scratch, I started new career not related to music. I feel OK now cause I don't need to pursue ppl that don't care about me. No bs zoom calls, no rejections. I can create music not to become next Hans Zimmer. Now I have my own timeline, I can experiment whenever I feel like. I'm trying to connect and maintain relationships. But I'm not in hunger anymore. I transformed from maximalist creative kid to a normal realistic person. Maybe at some point I become a full time composer here in North America. But in the end it's not a goal for us musicians, composers. I want to create meaningful work that inspires me and pushes me. I want to keep music for myself.

[@nicogodefroy]

I can relate to your story, what job did you end up doing in Canada? Are you still doing it? Can you still have time to write music?

[@andrey-on8bq]

@@nicogodefroy I’m doing electrical engineering. Yes I have time after work.

[@Giorgi.Japiashvili]

What about music licensing career? Writing music and sending them to libraries, etc. There's a book about this called Tracks That Sync by Graham Barton that I'm reading and it seems doable, I know this field is very competitive but... I don't want to be an "IT consultant" my whole life

[@AndyMan-mr1hy]

You should be on TV!!!!!! You are entertaining, helpful, educational, crazy funny, a composing god. You have Everything!!! You need to be on the telly FFS!!! Brilliant brilliant brilliant!!!! Love you bud, in the non forbidden way. YOU ARE EPIC! Like metropolis arks strings. Thank you for all that you do sir

[@FLH3official]

"You should be on TV!!!!!! " Well, actualy our old friend Guy was. You'll be able to find old video of him as a journalist for an old BBC morning show.

[@jamesrichardson8140]

tbf doing a toilet brush ad in a week for 7/8k sounds pretty good right now

[@grahamzebedee5525]

Hi Guy, "WOW", I would love to do a toilet brush commercial . I have about 100 or so, 28/30 second pieces of music especially for this type of TV commercial but can't seem to break into this strange world of TV adds. Do you have any tips, thank you GZ.

[@soundtreks]

I’ve posted more work on KZbin and I ended up with a concert commission and a horror film (indie) offer from it so getting one’s work out there never hurts

[@LeeGee]

On the note (hahah) of toilet brushes -- never forget the theme for Going For Gold was written by Hans Zimmer!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Was it!? I didnt know that

[@monsterofeastfelton]

Making contacts is the hardest thing for me. I'm a very friendly, kind hearted, introvert. I have a very difficult time reaching out to people. Would you have any suggestions for meeting directors looking for music? Love your channel. Learned so much from you!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

OK will do

[@monsterofeastfelton]

@@avmusic2977 Thank you so much. That's amazing reply and I will really try hard to keep that in mind.

[@svendkorsgaard9599]

I am feeling guilty about wanting to do music when i am already in the middle of my masters degree in physics, which is also a passion of mine. But while physics gives me a sufficient intellectual challenge and stimulation, as you said, it is not a creative outlet. However, i am in the unique position of soon being qualified for a very lucrative career, but at the same time, i want to do music. It didn't make sense to me to drop a potentially lucrative and very high paying job in order to become a struggling musician. But your video made it make so much sense to me. Get the best of both worlds!

[@johannborchersfriends]

Do the physics. I made all my money in physics and software. Only now retired at 49 I started doing music. Specific heat for the win!

[@svendkorsgaard9599]

@@johannborchersfriends Thanks for the encouragement! But the market for physics today is oversaturated. Competition is too high. I want to do a Ph.D in theoretical high-energy physics, but there are so few positions, and some of my collegues and just geniuses. So the chances of me staying in physics is very low. Probably i will get a regular job unless i want to burn myself out for the science. Which is why i am pursuing my other passions now, namely music and game development 😀

[@Mojo_Musik]

I would be more than happy to accept the toilet brush commercial gig!

[@DanIel-fl1vc]

I think the most valuable skill a "composer" can have is being able to arrange any music into any genre. Make twinkle twinkle little star sound like metal, make it sound like country, make it sound classical. That's a harder to skill to master and services I think people are more willing to pay for. Show your employer a song you've made that got counterpoint, arranged into every GOOD genre imaginable. That'd be impressive, and good practice too.

[@whoisbriannab]

So weird...I AM an IT Consultant in Minneapolis!! I would like to see a video on how/where to get your first gig when you don't really have any contacts yet.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

HA! As I said it I wondered....

[@GabrielBertanComposer]

Hi Guy, it was a really interesting argument you brought, I'm going through loads of things you mentioned, recently I've just finished my first short film project, where the director changed drastically her mind and in the end my song didn't fit as I hoped, but it's still there, and your video made me realize that this things happens and I need to stick and make things easier to them instead of pointing the mistakes, because after all we're all always learning. Also I currently left a real state office position to move to Denmark and I'm working as a bartender, I want to start uni but it's still far from reality. The great thing about here is that it gives me enough time to work on music even if I have a full time job in another area, I'm much more secure and comfortable with my finances like this than if I had to live out of music (that I make no money at all) but it gives me the tranquillity to not think on how i'll pay my bills but worry about my projects and career. It's really nice that you share this with whom is going through it, so we know we're on the right path. Cheers!

[@MrAldafox]

Are toilet brush commercials actually paying 7/8 k for music though? I saw the other day the "luxury brand" Mercedes Benz were paying a measely 2k for music for their next advert, which was very depressing to say the least.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

It varies a lot on where you are and what the channel is. Some are definitely but advertising in an area where budgets have definitely come down a lot

[@MrAldafox]

@@ThinkSpaceEducation I hear that, thanks for the response :)

[@stuartjameswright]

I'm an example of what you are talking about. I have a successful WFT IT consultancy career that keeps t'wolf from t'door for 20 to 30 hours a week and the rest of my time is spent creating songs and instrumentals under three different projects that bring in roughly a quarter of my overall income. This is ideal and my streaming income from my instrumentals is building slowly. I have a dream that by the time I can draw my pension my royalties will provide me with a bonus at the end of each month.

[@djmag4u]

Hell of competition it’s all up to LUCK

[@LeeGee]

Got my second unpaying job - and now the producers seem to be about to sue each other... Shame, as I thought the music was really good despite complete and utter lack of direction. Back to square one....! It *is* fun though.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Not square one - you now have two contacts going their separate ways!

[@epicon6]

10:18 I experienced this exact thing with photography and i’m not repeating it with music 😂 I’m insanely talented in photography but my passion and excitement died for it after i followed the money and not my passion. Instead of composing music for toilet brush commercials i took the photos or made the video :) From experience i can say there’s nothing worse than turning your passion into toilet brushes.. (Unless you are swimming in crazy toilet brush money and it becomes worth sacrifising the creative passion you had)

[@arataka57]

I'm a 65 composer, Is there hope?😊

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Im 66 and we have a grad in his 70's who got his first paid job. As long as you are a/ not cynical b/ open to new musical ideas, the remote working world is a lot more forgiving

[@arataka57]

​​​@@ThinkSpaceEducationThank you, that gave me hope for sure ( not being cynical)!

[@FLH3official]

Thank you for this video and Good news for everybdoy, I'll stay below the roots of the Success Tree: I don't like to meet people, I hate planes, I don't like to be friendly just for the sake of a future hypotetical business, I like to stay in my remote countryside, seeing no one for a week, or more, and actualy I'm not sure I like ""artists"" and people with any artistic message for all mankind.🙂 I know, maybe I could need some psychological help... 😁 😁

[@PavelSemin]

Full-time vs. part-time really resonates with me a lot. I have an IT job, and I played in some bands in my 20s, after some time I saw people that making music "full-time", but their main income was from teaching/cover bands and not their original music/shows. With years some of them even sacrifice their own bands to just became full-time guitar teachers, which sounds ridiculous to me, like you lost main reason why you switched to music career, but I understand that they still have bills to pay. I had that choice too, and teaching is ok, but that's not what I would choose over my job money-wise, so I would ditch my job only for creative work like actually writing music. But another side of the coin is that there isn't so much options to go part-time on "serious" jobs, especially if you move from one company to another, and not just go part time in company that already knows and trusts you

[@The_Pretend_Elite]

My music has no genre I don't even know what to call it

[@Wolfbabypuppylove]

Hell yeah the toilet brush one I've got 3 kids to feed .

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

I know I know

[@tonydalton459]

Just remember. When you’re practising your karaoke in the bathroom, the toilet brush is never the microphone 😮😊

[@funketude]

I really like doing toilet brush commercials

[@StergiosNikolaouofficial_]

Music industry: Full of EGO people. That's all

[@DanielaTocan]

Forget this positions realy. This is a one way carrier for slaves you suggest us… friends and contacts are important you are right. But Rest you can forget. Important step if the level of a director is to low that you are able to cancel a job.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Oh Daniela - you need a little burst of optimism!

[@DanielaTocan]

@@ThinkSpaceEducation see it so in fact… I stay absolute as Hobby user. I mainly make foleys and footsteps for a friend that have a film production company in Singapore. In fact more projects offers that I can do in my free time. Mainly Asian market. Gaming industries. Most requests I give away. I realy have not the time to compose for a complete film…. And bit Kity Katz with some Heaviocity Damage at Netflix is not a level I like going for. For no money…

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

@@DanielaTocan That's entirely fair. Yup the world of foley and sound design we are very familiar with and you're right people get paid to do audio post and SD for games and get proper long-term contracts so it's like a real job!

[@DanielaTocan]

@@ThinkSpaceEducation in fact… for Hobby use specialised on foodsteps daily payment is 500.-€. But I decide after reading the script or review the project I am interest or not. Arround KZbin with this contests like the cuetube or others, there is a lots of trash. I did one or 2 where you was involved for justice. I am shure you did never keep a notice. Last project with a Caribbean Filmmaker and producer was a Desaster. He did use a Red Camera but was not able to understand basics of postproduction and audio. In fact… than it’s better to leave a project not to risc yours reputation. Every Porn Video to score or make Sound Design is more serious than to go on.

[@johannborchersfriends]

Unfortunately your timing is almost delusional. Music opportunities are contracting bigtime. You are either not paying attention to what is going on, don't know, or don't care. If you did videos on how to survive a downturn it would make a lot more sense.