This Axe Grind Dummy Rule is Kinda Dumb

[@gregwarner3753]

A long time ago I had a standard double bit ax I used for felling trees mostly for firewood. One edge was filed to a fairly thick wedge. This busted out some big chips when chopping the wedge in the tree. The other was filed thin and used to chop off limbs. It would take off three to four inch limbs with one swipe.

[@bombsawaylemay770]

Was it a PLUMB?

[@JoeBob79569]

I'm from Ireland, not an axe expert, and never heard of this half-moon method, but the advice about "rules" in general is definitely something to take on board. Just doing this blindly is kind of like sealing up your chimney because you heard that having a hole in the roof of your house is bad..

[@MJGEGB]

To simplify this, high centerlines naturally end up with a banana grind if you maintain the same bevel angle across the bit. I wouldn't call it a dummy rule since when it was written the high centerline was extremely common, especially by the forest service which An Axe to Grind was written for. Good to see you are starting to experiment with American axes finally. Give the banana grind on an old American head a try, you might like it. Also I can't stand when people call high centerline axes fat. The reality is they are only thick in the center which is very useful for both chopping and splitting. This is different than the modern hardware store axes you show in this video that are just fat, or thick wedges. You get the wedging effect, without unnecessary friction. The bevel of the high centerline also acts sort of like a bearing when retrieving an axe from a cut making it easier to rock the axe out of the cut or split.

[@SkillCult]

Hi Matt. I don't know how common it was for axes to fit the pattern in Mason's day, which is where the recommendation originated, but it seems safe to assume that a certain type of axe was so common that they felt it could be applied broadly. I have seen a lot of axe heads, old and new though and there is only so much consistency. I just had a DHS I think it was? it was old enough to have welded bits, but it was one of the fattest set of cheeks I've seen. The reason I called it a dummy rule has to do with making recommendations on depth, which I don't think are safe, even on old old axes, and also fairly irrelevant and that the shape is emphasised rather than the goal. Also, it says little about the rest of the geometry. Viewed from above as two dimensional, that shape could be hiding a lot of nuance, like retaining a high centerline, or actually off-centerline as recommended by Kreps and Kephart, or long subtle curve, or just flat. It leaves people thinking it's about the shape viewed two dimensionally from above. Also, it seems to be slung around even more haphazardly now. Not that people won't figure it out eventually, but if it's written for people that need to know about it.... Clearly within the axes which have a convexity toe to heel and a mid blade hollow as Cook called it, there is a huge variation in every dimension. But virtually all of them end up with more or less of some kind of delta, banana, fan, crescent, half moon when they are fitted up well enough to chop. Just not a predictable one. Thanks for commenting!

[@hoilst]

The classic Tassie Pattern Australian axe is famous for its fat, convex cheeks, since American-style, and especially British-style, axes tended to burying themselves too far into eucalypts without blowing a chip out. American axemen (and women!) were amazed at the fatness and heft to the cheeks, when the tendency for American and European axes were thinness and concavity behind the edge. Eucalypt's not a neat wood, in terms of grain, all woven together, not to mention the sap that glues it all together. Completely different geometry to the American axes I've got.

[@anthonyclark9159]

@@hoilst less so for american axes, they are not usually concave to the degree of european. In fact vintage american axes are sought after for the thick cheeks, preffered for splitting, and superior steel that the u.s. was known for at the time.

[@bartman59laj55]

Well spoken and delivered information, I’m 60 and have been using axes all my life and that was a good common sense explanation of axe sharpening, thank you

[@SkillCult]

Thanks :)

[@billsutherland2128]

A note should be brought up about the durability of the edge in relation to its grind shape. Many splitting mauls will have a fan shaped grind, but when you get to the competitive cutting axes they're ground with a straight line from the handle hole to the cutting edge. The fan shape is meant as a medium between the two extremes, offering a durable edge with a strong supporting body. The fan shaped grind was also suggested for the common lumberjack of old because of the ease of maintaining the correct cutting angle with a file while in the woods. I used to compete in the Hayward Lumberjack trials as a young man, worked at lumber companies on their sawmills, and cut pulp as a kid in Wisconsin. You learns things when you hang around with the old timers.

[@SkillCult]

Great comment. A theoretical or actual straight line from face of the axe at the eye, to a theoretical perfect edge is what I have come to use as my main mental reference point in thinking about axe geometry. Actually an entire, perfect wedge axe is I think the best mental and practical reference, but that line is probably the most important. I haven't got to examine any modern style competition axes, but I have a basque axe head that is pretty much ground in a straight line like that, though it is a short and pretty thick head. When I'm grinding axes, I usually end up with something close to that straight line, but just a little less close to the edge, so there is a bit more meat right near the edge, maybe up to about 1/8 inch. Peter Vido has a story where he asks on old Canadian logger how he should grind his axe and the guy sets a file on the head from the eye to the bit and says "flat". Of course part of the line is missing, because of the midblade hollow ground into almost every axe head except the occasional anomaly or wedge axe.. Again, the fan shape is really dependent on how the axe was originally made, unless people are grinding out the sides and mid blade hollow a lot further, which is rare, combined with the finished grind. But if most vintage and modern heads are ground to chop what I would consider really well, these is going to be some type of delta or crescent or fan, varying in total dimension and shape largely due to the original configuration.

[@DrewDubious]

The banana grind, or fan grind as you are calling it, comes from properly grinding an axe on a sharpening stone. It's not some idea someone came up with, it's the natural pattern that appears when using the correct tool for the job. People try to emulate it using hand files.

[@SkillCult]

I don't get it. Yes, it forms somewhat naturally when pursuing certain goals, which was much of my point, but that shape is dependent on the configuration of the rest of the axe. If the axe geometry is different, the pattern will appear differently, whether using a stone or a grinding wheel or a file. And on some it is not relevant. Most references to that pattern are in the context of initial set up, as a rule to follow to grind the axe "properly". And it is valid, but just on some axes, not as a dogma, and not by dimension or specific shape. Once I set up an axe, I pretty much grind the same areas that I filed and there is very little change in the ground area, aside from advancing it back and deeper to maintain a similar geometry. I don't see how using a stone arbitrarily on just any axe in a certain way has anything to do with it.

[@DrewDubious]

@@SkillCult Axes really are not meant to be sharpened with a file. That is likely where the "rule" came from, since filing will leave you with a flat, non-convex bit if you are not mindful of what you are doing. I used to file all of my axes to sharpen them, then I got a real sandstone wheel and I could see why it was so much better than filing. No matter what the axe geometry, using the wheel will give you the same grind pattern everytime.

[@basteward4567]

@@DrewDubious Thank goodness someone understands that. For centuries axes were sharpened on a wheel with a water trough. This filing fetish is a You tuber thing ,

[@gosmoothgolight6285]

Just purchased a military surplus hatchet and your super clear explanation of blade profile was just what I was looking for! Thank you ... God Bless

[@SkillCult]

Good, stay safe.

[@eb282]

Finally! Someone needs to demystify ax grinds. So glad you're on this topic. So basically the fan shape is a resultant of the intersection of two complex planes; the ax cheek with the ideal cheek section. My next question is if the grind was so common, why weren't axes just made with the cheek already shaped with the fan? Thinking aloud now, maybe a thicker cheek is easier to manufacture or temper or both? Maybe it's like the nub on a saw, it's just there and the knowledge of why has been lost

[@SkillCult]

Well, I'm not the guy to demystify axe grinds, but I just noticed this one thing everywhere being tossed about haphazardly and obviously some confusion about it. I can't say for sure, but probably to leave enough for user preference, anything from splitting wood to super efficient chopping. I've also seen someone say that it's because it's easier to harden or temper a fatter bit. Can't say for sure though.

[@Slick519]

Very, very good video. If you ever want to chat about axes, hit me up. Axemanship is on the cutting block as far as "skill death" is concerned, and I am happy to see that you continue to put out more and more interesting and in depth videos. Keep it up!

[@not2fast4u2c]

Thank You for this video ....I am working on my cheap 20 axe and filing it to be like how you did on the red painted one ...Also being carefull no to change the angle of my sharpened edge...I may make the edge a little thinner...less angle..My problem has been trying to split wood and the edge was just too thick right behind the cutting edge making it bounce and not sink into the wood easy like an axe I would chop wood with

[@neilmarshall5087]

One of the best random videos i have watched for a long time. Been swinging an axe for 40+ years and FINALLY i know why being able to shave with an axe don't mean I'm going to hew through the wood real quick. Thank you thank you. Guess i should have looked this up years ago !!! < damn yet another you tube playlist to run through...... :) >

[@KevinsDisobedience]

I love that this guy comes from the place of use then theory, and not the other way around.

[@Abbbb225]

Thanks for the video. This has brought me to think about axe geometry, and it is fun, and complicated - there are so many possible arrangements, much more so than on a knife, and the demarcations between grinds or shapes is not always clear, i.e. a hollow will flow into a convex, and vice versa, and, as you mentioned, you can have convexities/concavities horizontally and/or longitudinally across the axe face.

[@daveoflogheadaxemods5387]

ahhh that rusty axe is lovely. Looks like a rafter axe, guessin by those marks on the back corners of the poll. LOVE IT.

[@SkillCult]

Yep, exactly.

[@quinntheeskimooutdoors6234]

Thanks for the information. I have several axes I have to grind, thanks.

[@craigmooring2091]

Very clear, concise, and cogent. Thanks for the references. "Sweden" was misspelled.

[@SkillCult]

Ha, yeah that was on purpose :). It's a joke from another video.

[@davidcoats1037]

That’s the conclusion I came up with after reading the book as well but it’s nice to get confirmation from someone else. Thanks for the video!

[@prattsgreenhousefarm9473]

Once again another common sense video. Excellent content man. Learn something every time. Also heard your name on Buckin Billy Ray.

[@cetyl2626]

Awesome, I found my self coming to this conclusion after reading Horrice Kepharts book while I was filing my my first serious ax. Good to hear I my sense was sensible. My Ax apparently is German made, so I was perplexed as it had that thinner geometry.

[@riverrowanphoenix1876]

So, essentially what I'm hearing is that axes need to be flat across the width and get thinner towards the blade, and to properly grind an axe to those requirements means that the grind leaves a fan-shaped pattern of un-oxidized steel at the front... My only question: Why don't blacksmiths and commercial axe producers just shape them properly before sale?

[@SkillCult]

It's not that simple. I would say that in order for an axe to chop well, it needs to be thin enough in the cheeks or it will cause to much resistance. The way that most axes are set up from the factory, they will not chop well and when they are filed down enough to chop well, they will show some type of pattern like that. That's a good question. There are specific grinds that require extra material, so maybe it's left there to allow people to grind to their preference. The fatter bit is also better for splitting. Some higher end makers set them up more before shipping, but the average axe is much too thick to be a good chopper.

[@runeborgbjerg]

Thanks a bunch. I have been wondering about the fascination of that crescent grind and I came to your conclusion, but until now I couldn't explain it nearly as well as you do.

[@308dad8]

I bought a hatchet from Harbor Freight and it was a decent chopper as it was from the store. I have had to grind on it some over the years but to repair pitting not to make it cut better

[@gerryheynes5082]

Hi, thanks for this - great timing as I’ve been sharpening an old axe this weekend and wasn’t quite happy with it. Your insight into the different factors to consider means I can tackle it again and hopefully get it right ;-)

[@SkillCult]

If there is a right lol. Bottom line, if it's for chopping it has to cut.

[@all4180]

I wasn't planning on re-sharpening mine today, but now I just have to go check mine out. Works well, but may need a slight tweak to make it a bit better. Thanks all for your comments and ideas!

[@thecashier930]

Just a quick info-comment: The Ochsenkopf (=Oxhead) axes he's referring to are called the Ochsenkopf "Iltis" . There's a good drawing of the shape on the website as well. They are advertised as their high-quality axes. And if anybody needs an example of insanely fat handles: Look at the same axes.

[@SkillCult]

Thanks.

[@1hillbilly]

Being new here I've had to catch up. Enjoyed rant on people's retail therapy. Notice you sometimes have a small fixed blade knife, appeared to be a Western Knife Co. Boy Scout model. Liked the blade, bought one. Circa 1950s & made a sheath for it. Guess I needed therapy. New high quality woodcraft knife is $300 a 60 year old one is $30. Much enjoy your channel .

[@SkillCult]

I like some westerns, but not most. I'm not crazy about this one, the handle is much too small. The blade is okay for some stuff.

[@Vincent60657]

This video has helped me to id the issues with my new double bit axe. Thanks for all you do. Good health to you Sir!

[@joshuagordon3020]

You do need a convex or high center line axe. Any quality vintage axe will have that. The banana grind/ crescent grind is also recommended by Peter McLaren in his axe manual. He recommends that the grind goes back 3"but i usually go 2". I have quite a bit of experience with radial grind, chisel grind and also banana and half banana grinds. The latter two by far chop and release the best for me. Great video though! Thanks for bringing up another good topic.

[@SkillCult]

Thanks for commenting. I don't even know what you mean by most of those terms. That's a major problem with these conversations though is the lack of consensus or understanding on terminology. In order to have a real in depth conversation on this we'd probably have to sit down with some axes and draw up diagrams and make sure we are talking about the same things.

[@joshuagordon3020]

That's a good point. It is confusing and we all come to different conclusions about what things mean and are called. On bladeforums. com. a bunch of us are on the same page for the most part. I often wish for a baseline. But that would mean picking a historical document as gospel and going from there i guess. These videos and conversations is a good start though! Thanks for responding! And thanks for making videos. I saw you on a documentary making leather with goat? brains. That was pretty cool.

[@SkillCult]

That was the Modern Marvels segment on braintanning filmed when we first moved here to the homestead about 13 years ago I think. With something as complex as axe geometry, it's hard to have a consensus and some terms don't define the function of the axe out of context of the rest of the factors. It think it's okay to accept that there will not always be consensus on terminology and probably better to assume that we could end up talking to someone and having two different conversations sometimes. Sometimes terms have to be defined or affirmed as you go, which is true where consensus on terminology matters the most, legal documents and proceedings. But it makes conversations somewhat clumsy. I think with axe geometry in particular visuals or at least mental pictures are extremely useful as well. Given that geometry is about reference points, it is also really useful to have a theoretical or even functional reference.

[@trevormartin987]

Banana grind is great for axes from the era when axes were real tools, not applicable to hardware store wedges for weekend chipping kiln dried wood at pay campsites. There is absolutely no standard of shape to an axe grind. There’s the right tool axe for the right job.

[@doug9418]

After watching this, and going through the contents of the channel I am amazed at how much you have to offer! Just had to subscribe to this great channel wow 👍 👍, thanks for sharing Sir 🇺🇸

[@SkillCult]

Thanks :)

[@sofaking2369]

I prefer the "fat axe" edge for splitting dried wood, it separates it in a way that I prefer. For chopping and cutting I cannot use the fat edge, it's unsafe due to the "pop back" you get when it meets hard woods.

[@SkillCult]

I find that my splitting maul explodes wood apart better when it's green, but I do much better when splitting green wood with an axe. I can split with with a thin axe ground for chopping, but It's not always the best thing.

[@KillingerUSA]

I always looked at it like this. You want to leave some meet behind the edge on the heel and toe, and remove some of the meat on the cheeks. Thus causes the "moon" shape by default. The amount of "moon" depends on the amount of convex or crown in the cheeks.I never shoot for the moon shape. I just sharpen like mentioned above and whatever I end up with is what I end up with. Everything seems to perform pretty well. Now, for axes with a scandi grind, thats a different animal and I sharpen it differently.

[@SkillCult]

yes, exactly. It's not about making a particular shape, but the way they put it that seems like the goal, which is confusing for people.

[@MrThenry1988]

I bought a gransfors at the Paul bunion show. I loved it so I bought it. Didn't know it was so famous. Makes sense.

[@SuperM1man]

I have been looking at a lot of axes lately the vaughan sub zero looks to be a convex grind with a big hallow probably for cutting redwood

[@lonniesrc7890]

The fan pattern is not determined by how much concavity there is between bevel and the eye as described in this video, it is determined by how convex the head is in the other direction (heel to toe). Axes with convexity in this direction are also called "high centerline" axes and are designed that way to reduce sticking in the wood. When filing a high centerline axe so that the bevel is at a consistent angle between the heel and the toe the fan pattern is naturally produced as the outcome. Almost all good axes produced back in the 19th century were manufactured with a high centerline and thus the sharpening books which were written reflected that design. Looking at pics of a Kelly Perfect axe with "Phantom Bevels" one can quickly see the desired profile for a chopping axe to minimize sticking and to throw chips. The phantom bevel profile had all three profiles needed to reduce sticking with a chopping axe: 1. A high centerline running from the bevel to the eye, 2. Concavity from the back of the bevel to the eye along the top and bottom of the blade. This profile was blended into the high centerline on other axes but had a very pronounced forging transition on the kelly perfect. 3. Convexity where the bevel transitions into the bit. All good choppers have those three very important profiles.

[@SkillCult]

I'm not sure I understand the objection. I said the shape was due to both side to side convexity and hollow. Can you make an argument that the negative dimensions of the cheek to eye hollow has no effect on the finished shape of the fan? Please watch again before commenting. I think you may have missed something. I'm happy to hear your objection if you can make a clear argument. The point was to dispel the idea that an arbitrary dimension and shape can be applied to all axes, when there is a large variation between axe styles, patterns, models and probably even the same axe model from the same factory on the same day. Part of that recommendation is usually the depth of the fan, which is often affected by the negative dimensions of the cheek to eye hollow.

[@lonniesrc7890]

SkillCult What I am saying in a nutshell is that it would have been better for you to place the straight edge in the other direction (across the axe head from heel to toe) to illustrate the reason for the fan shape. Not just the reason for it but also the degree to which the fan shape occurs as a result of filing the bezel on a single plane from heel to toe. And no, the "hollows" as you call them do not come into play because they occur behind the bevel. Some of our difference in opinion could also be the result of using different terms when speaking about axe anatomy. I was always taught that the bezel is the part of the bit you sharpen and the cheeks are the hollows behind the bezel which transition into the eye.

[@zombiefighterof1987]

Any update on your axe projects, specifically the Husqvarna axe? Is it in a stalemate or are you doing anything with the Husqvarna?

[@SkillCult]

I'll get to it. It's pretty high on the list now, but my life got turned upside down because of the fires around here. Just haven't been feeling well and trying to put everything back together. I want to get that project done though because people keep asking...

[@woodchuker570]

Well done Steve, thank you .. Great editing and content buddy, love it.

[@SkillCult]

:)

[@urbanlumberjack]

I love when you go after these “sacred cows.” Those golden rules are often based on some dude that said it, and then people just regurgitated the “rule.” It’s basically the logical fallacy appealing to authority and not logic, science, or anything reliable.

[@o.Struggler]

One with the bevels on the poll looks like a rafting axe,build real heavy like a splitting maul

[@thomaschalupa1042]

Hey man, good stuff. I get alot out of your channel. Got an idea/question though. Could you make a vid comparing different types of designs and how you would rate them and what their uses would be. Like a concave (swedish type) vs beveled cheeks (american) vs wedge etc..... That would be a damn good vid and would help me decide which style of head to use for which application. I get lost in all the clutter. Like right now im trying to make myself a pack axe for canoe trips, roughly 2.25lbs x 21in, but im not sure of the style of head i like or need.... So before i go crazy and buy 4 different boys axe heads to find one i like, it would be cool for you to do a rundown. Once again, thanks for the good work. Much appreciated

[@SkillCult]

No, I wouldn't do that. I don't understand the problem well enough. I think you are overthinking it anyway. Just pick up a nice vintage head, even a cheaper no-name one, get a decent handle, and start experimenting, filing and chopping. A general purpose axe will do everything if you learn to use it well, so no need for an army of specialty axes. The Forest service recommendations are probably a good place to start, just don't concern yourself about the shape of the area filed or ground. That isn't the goal and just takes care of itself. Hard to go wrong with the common dayton or similar american axe pattern, abundantly available at 2.25 lb. for canoeing I'd consider a longer handle personally. I'm 5'9" and can use a 27 very comfortably. 25 is my lower limit for full functionality if at all possible. Canoeing I think you'd do great with a standard boys axe. So far good reports on West Woods handles from ebay.

[@308dad8]

Didn’t you post a video before about it’s all about geometry of edge to the widest part and the chore you have for it? So for splitting it will have a wider profile from edge to wedge and for cutting it’ll be a more narrow taper?

[@SkillCult]

Roughly something like that. The best reference for all axe geometry is a perfect straight wedge axe. If you think of that and adding or subtracting from it, it can help make things clearer. The law of extremes is helpful too. If you think of making an axe like a kitchen knife and one like a cold chisel, it becomes obvious not just what their properties would be like, but also everything in between.

[@308dad8]

@@SkillCult Cool. Thanks

[@michaeldean5787]

I am not too sure what the goal of grinding is when done correctly. What is the ideal shape for splitting and why?

[@SkillCult]

I don't think there is an ideal shape for either chopping or splitting. Too many variables. Generally splitters are thicker at the edge with more outward wedging effect and less tendency to stick. Some are very obtuse and others more acute. Either way, skill, strategy, technique are usually the more important factors.

[@michaeldean5787]

@@SkillCult thank you

[@TobiasDuncan]

So is the point of this to take an axe with a shape for riving and set it up for cross grain chopping or limbing ?

[@SkillCult]

Most axes are not set up in the factory for chopping across grain, so basically, yes

[@lithiic1807]

So if I have this correct you place the axe head on a table with the blade facing you and place the file on the axe so it touches the cheek and the eye then start filing it until the filed portion on the cheek reaches the edge? Thus making a "fan" shape, then reshaping the edge.

[@SkillCult]

I'm not recommending that, but something like that an be done.. I did it on one axe and will be trying it again. But the flat can't come all the way to the edge, more like a 1/16 to and 1/8 inch from edge, then a secondary bevel.

[@Akhazmat907]

Yeah I don't do any of that and I been splitting wood for 30 years in Alaska. I sharpen it, but I dont grind anything or file a half moon. I have never had a need to do any of that stuff.

[@SkillCult]

You kind of don't want to for splitting anyway. Almost every axe needs major work to be an efficient chopper though. that's what this iis really all about.

[@Akhazmat907]

People say this, yet I have not had to make in half moon or any of that other stuff and I chops and splits wood just fine. So I don't see a benefit of doing it your way if I am getting better results and splitting faster then my brothers and our younger employees. They sharpen that way yet I spit more in a day then all of them. so it seems to me to be hear say, say it enough and people take miss info as a fact. I am not buying it.

[@9mmkahr]

If hanging the axe head at 5:00 i would have a hard time finding the top, without measuring the top and bottom of the eye. Almost looks upside down

[@SkillCult]

That one is somewhat symmetric, but there is enough difference to tell in person. Very few axe heaks are totally symmetrical, but some double bits are.

[@eddiealvarez5493]

Excellent explanation, on the American Axe. Keep it coming.

[@Ruger41mag]

Thanks for the info ..... I have found the same to be true with the various axes and hatchets that I have.

[@basails45]

Good information. Thanks for the video.

[@prioritytree]

Thanks. I totally got it. 👍🏼

[@caswallonandflur692]

My constructive comment: 😐 Just to clarify why it "makes no sense" . The (high centerline) concave shape forged onto the axe bit , is to prevent binding into the tree when chopping. It makes for easier removing between swings. Less frustration and energy spent . I think !? 😎

[@SkillCult]

I'm not sure what the reference or inference is. There may be said to be a difference between a high centerline in a ground chopping axe and a greatly protruding centerline in an axe that is unfit for chopping like all of those old axes are. Even when ground to this crescent pattern, there is perhaps slightly less friction when the sides are relieved, even if the protrusion is taken off, but not a lot and I'm not convinced it makes a lot of difference.

[@caswallonandflur692]

@@SkillCult ya, was referring to your discussion where you said that sharpening that way on that type of bit would make no sense. I was pointing out to the novice the reason (theory) why they were made in that shape ( the convex kind). But hey , I am learning all the time also ! 🙂

[@caswallonandflur692]

@@SkillCult p.s. : have a safe and enjoyable autumn my freind . It's a busy time of the year , but relaxing too.

[@adamtheheavyequipmentmechanic]

people who say you need to grind an axe like this are only trying to sell new axes. if you cant chop with a factory axe then you need the gym.

[@SkillCult]

I don't know if you're just trolling or just not conversant enough to know better, but that is definitely not true. Most axes, and maybe even more so old axes, com way too thick in the cheeks and near the bit to chop well. Most old used axes have never been ground to chop well either. The difference is large and it's important if a person wants to get work done with a reasonable degree of energy efficiency. I have never bought and used an axe on which I didn't remove somwhere between quite a bit and a lot of metal, which on most axes means thinning the cheeks. Also, the idea that you would use an axe that doesn't cut well just because you are in good shape is bizzare. Why not handicap every tool that requires considerable physical labor to use. We could make shovels more rounded and not care that they are less efficient, or make wheel barrow tires octagonal.

[@adamtheheavyequipmentmechanic]

@@SkillCult everybody has their opinions, i firmly believe your ruining your axes. after all why would a blacksmith make an axe with more material than needed and shaped incorrectly. every axe ive ever used has been purpose built, i think you need to find the right axe for you or build one for your preferences.

[@SkillCult]

I've heard and thought of various reasons that they might be left thick on purpose. One is that it is somehow easier to do the hardening and tempering process in the factory if the edge is not too thin. Even though I'm an occasional blacksmith and have tempered quite a few tools, I don't know if that is true or not. It seems unlikely, but there is also a difference between efficient factory production and craftsman level smithing. Another is that axes with thick bits typically make better splitting axes, which I tend to agree with. They will also take a lot more abuse than an axe which is ground enough to chop well. There is also the idea that you simply leave enough for the user to customize the grind. For instance, both Kephart and Kreps both recommend a grind that requires leaving a little bit of that thickness in a specific area only. That can't be done if the material is not there in the first place. More axes come now a little less thick and a few, like gransfors, come a lot closer. But, I'm sure I've never bought an axe that I didn't have to remove some material to make the axe bite better, including a couple of gransfors that I got many years ago. The only axe I've seen that is nearly ready to chop aside from sharpening is a basque axe. If you look hard, you might find an author from the 20th century (before that axes are rarely even written about) who doesn't mention that you need to grind an axe for chopping. Kephart, krips, the plumb manual, dudley cook, the forest service manual, and misc camping books all talk about it, usually in fairly specific terms. If you gave a workman an axe of average out-of-the-factory thickness and just sharpened it, they would get beat up while not getting enough work done. The axe would do less work per blow than an axe ground well for chopping and the user would suffer more backshock, because the less the tool bites, it is increasingly like a hammer and less like a cutting implement. It is a common mistake to think that axe or other tool manufacturers know what is best for us. hand a factory axe to anyone experienced from the past and they would change the bit if it were anything like the average factory bit, and probably tune the handle to their liking. I've probably never not modified a handle or head, new or used. They virtually always need work and most need considerable work to perform at even a reasonable level.

[@adamtheheavyequipmentmechanic]

@@SkillCult also remember there are different axes,grinds and edge angles for different woods. get or use the axe that is best suited for what you are cutting.

[@BeSatori]

Wouldn't the primary use of the ax/hatchet (limbing, bucking, etc.) also be a determining factor? You would think manufacturers, at least back in the day, would have ground them that way in the first place.

[@SkillCult]

Sure, but that might be answering your own question, leave it plenty fat and leave it up to the user. Splitting, limbing, working near the ground or just preference.

[@BeSatori]

So what profile are we aiming for, and why? Especially if your cheeks are already too thin for that template?

[@SkillCult]

Good question. Let me know when you figure it out :)

[@SkillCult]

My latest experiment that I did any real chopping with was actually just a flat fan, made by laying the file on the eye and filed down close to the edge. I still am not sure what I think of it, but it cut really well!

[@sethbasler9777]

Ive searched around forever but i have found a couple old axe heads and when i polished them up i found a crack running the length of the eye on one side. Do you have any tips on what to do with them one is a plumb and another is a oyb cutlery i think is what it says both 3 pound felling axes. I dont wanna get rid of them.

[@SkillCult]

Theoretically you could weld or maybe braze them. I'm not sure which would be better. The bit would have to be suspended in water though while welding and until cool. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise or the temper will be ruined. Also, don't quench it to cool the weld, let it cool on it's own. Or just use them and fix them if it gets worse. That's probably what I'd do.

[@kerrygallagher4677]

makes sense to me . thanks steve

[@laststar9406]

I love that red swedish axe!....I can tell by the paint.....that there is swedish red only available in the swedish land

[@dakillah6018]

"only available in the swedish land" for some reason i got lit by that

[@PsycJoe02]

Love the axe vids, great stuff

[@ottomakers]

You rock dude, enjoying your channel

[@brauliogarcia9877]

Forgive my ignorance. Born and raised in the city. The goal when grinding the ax, simply put, is to get even with the hollow? As well as get it flat from top to bottom in relation to the edge?

[@SkillCult]

No, grinding axes is a subject of endless debate. All I'm saying is that these very high centerline axes don't chop well and a lot of the cheek has to come off. Everyone knew that, to the point that this rule developed around grinding them. If you level off the cheek in a flat plane from the eye area, down close to the edge, it will cut, so that gives a reference point of some kind similar to an axe that is a perfect wedge, which is a good comparison to use when looking at any axe. some leave part of to provide a ramp to spring chips and allegedly improve sticking. Others say never make any part of the cheek or long bevel flat. You can come more or less close to the edge and then vary the accuteness and curve of it more or less, or even flat. You can probably find someone who will claim that any combination of those is the proper way to grind an axe. One thing I will say though, I can't remember what I said in this video, but one thing I will say is that if you flatten off the cheek, just completely flat, to within about 3/32 of the edge it will provide a reference point for an axe that cuts well as long as the bevel is sharp enough. That is basically the wedge configuration, with hollows ground in and will usually look something like this fan pattern, depending on how the axe comes from the factory.

[@basteward4567]

@@SkillCult Watch thaxe filer at Tuatahi, that will show you the best way

[@SkillCult]

@@basteward4567 got a link?

[@basteward4567]

@@SkillCult kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3jChqVqodqbgpo

[@basteward4567]

@@SkillCult kzbin.info/www/bejne/nGHRfGaDlLaWiaM

[@beaulindemann6192]

Another great video professor, once again you made me feal dumb and at the same time clear up a lot for me thanks bro

[@petemcpherson2259]

Would that apply to heavier hatchet heads also?

[@SkillCult]

Sure, just a matter of what you want them to do. If you are chopping, it has to chop and that has much to do with how thin it is, but also that there are no really major speed bumps.

[@whocares7864]

thank you! great video and thanks for the links as well!

[@SkillCult]

You're welcome.

[@Helliconia54]

as a pure novice,i was wondering about splitting axes and felling axes and their differences

[@SkillCult]

typically splitting mauls and axes have fatter bits and less acute edge grinds. but there are lots of different approaches. Chopping axes need to penetrate reasonably deep to be efficient, so if ground for chopping well, the bits are usually pretty thin.

[@downeastprimitiveskills7688]

Forest fire haze at the end?

[@SkillCult]

Yes! That's one reason I haven't got any vids out for a while. Danger is over though.

[@downeastprimitiveskills7688]

We had a very dry summer, many of the small trout streams were bone dry which is very hard on the native trout, thankfully beaver create dams which the trout can hold up in. We have just had one big rain and another coming tomorrow morning. Amazing our blueberries survived as well as they did, we had a good crop in comparison to the conventional berry growers.

[@woodnerdbill]

You receive your BBR Special yet?

[@SkillCult]

No, it's in the mail. I don't go out too much.

[@woodnerdbill]

Understood. Enjoy it when you do.

[@nkcwilliams]

SkillCult, Great video. Would this apply to a double bit axe? I have a Plumb 4 lbs that I am working on fixing up. Thanks N.

[@SkillCult]

Yeah, no reason it wouldnt' be the same. Usually the two sides are ground differently on a doublt bit, One for chopping in clean wood and a thicker side for splitting and working near the ground etc.

[@markhansen8078]

Makes perfect sense to me..... ty once again. mh

[@sbjennings99]

Awesome informational educational video experience Y'alls

[@cosmicbilly]

I used to think your channel was called "SkillCut" today i just realized that it's actually "SkillCULT" lol oops

[@SkillCult]

ha ha. Well, it's rather audacious.

[@user-rn6yc1vh4q]

What he say.

[@jfrtbikgkdhjbeep9974]

damnnnnn 😳

[@all4180]

Great video, thanks!

[@congamike1]

The Woodsmanship book is here: drive.google.com/file/d/0B02101yuG3rYZjY2MmQxYWUtMDIxOS00NGM2LTgxNzctOGQzYTFkNTJmMTAy/view Thanks for broaching this topic. What I want, is a grind that doesn't stick so badly when I split logs. I'd rather be taking my next swing than spending time and risking a broken handle by wrestling the ax away from the grasp of a log. Seems to me that the half moon shape would serve that purpose. Help?

[@SkillCult]

I think most people would tell you to leave the factory grind. the thinner it is, the deeper it sinks, and it's not wedging the wood apart, which would release the axe. I'm not sure exactly what to tell you. I have some cognitive dissonance about what is best for splitting. It may be the technique is very significant.

[@SkillCult]

look up Tom Clark wood splitting on youtube. Very interesting pretty flat looking wide but pretty sharp bevel on his splitting axes, but the design and technique make it work. The attack is at 30 degrees to one side and the long axe with heavy poll throws the energy to the side popping the split open.

[@congamike1]

Tom Clark is awesome! You did some digging to find those videos. Thanks. I did a lot of bouncing with my first blows today. Tom experienced that too so I am OK with it. It seems that is not a problem caused by the axe being too dull. OBTW: Methinks (guesses) the half moon grind may have come from enjoying the Kelly Perfect axe. My axes are shaped differently. Steven, thanks for being here.

[@SkillCult]

Yeah, he was awesome.

[@ajaxtelamonian5134]

Lol im probably going to regret not bothering with microbeveling but ive gotten away with it so far xD

[@SkillCult]

You don't need is if the bevel angles at the edge are not too acute. If they are, you'll know it :)

[@tommydarchbald4893]

Educate yourself on the geometry of a cutting tool. Their is no cookie cutter rule. Very good video!

[@woodsmansfinest3814]

Oh yeah!!

[@carmineredd1198]

i was high when i watched this video so gained absolutely nothing

[@carbonitegamorrean8368]

watched three times

[@tommcqueen3145]

😃

[@Ruralset]

SWEEDIN

[@bushcraftgangster7809]

OMG. My ears are bleeding. Sharpen or grind the damn axe and talk.

[@SkillCult]

No.

[@PuReBlOoD3478]

Good shit home slice👍🧂