This is probably the future of Gravel Bikes

[@Ivan-oh6ug]

You guys consistently put out very interesting technically-minded videos. I enjoyed this one a lot, keep up the good work

[@Mapdec]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@QoraxAudio]

That bike is a trekking bike, not a gravel bike. And it's exactly what I'm looking for! We need more trekking bikes on the market...

[@tubecated_development]

It’s a monster-cross

[@headslash55]

@@QoraxAudio the tout Terrain scrambler is a good one to look at then. Has the mechanical version of the gearbox with a dropbar.

[@Hawkeye948]

looks like a trecking bike with drop bars 😉

[@QoraxAudio]

@@headslash55 Looks nice! I'm actually looking for a frameset, so that I can reuse most of my bike components. Seems that tout terrain only has two framesets up for sale right now.

[@headslash55]

@@QoraxAudio you can buy the frame for each model in the Configurator

[@SayMcGillicuddy]

really really interesting. More like this please. Thanks and all the best Dave

[@Mapdec]

McGillicuddy Reeks. Fab mountain range. Love Ireland. 🇮🇪

[@varez93]

You can also do drop bars + Pinion without electronic shifting. You have three options: - The Hibox from HILITE bikes (works only with the C1.12). - The PinShim kit (works for both the P1.18 and the C1.12). - The Cinq Shift:R from Tout Terrain (works only with the C1.12). The first two options will make the Pinion shift with modified Shimano, SRAM, or Campagnolo levers. My personal preference is to use Shimano levers. The increased lever throw when using these two systems makes the small shift buttons on SRAM and Campy very uncomfortable to use. With Shimano you shift by pushing the entire brake lever so that is not an issue. If your frame takes post mount brakes you can also pair the GRX levers with 4-piston SLX calipers for an amazing braking performance. The third option (Cinq) works with modified TRP Hylex levers. Unfortunately it seems like it is no longer possible to purchase it separately. Your only option would be to purchase a complete bike from Tout Terrain which uses it.

[@stephensaines7100]

More on this please!

[@headslash55]

Don't forget the cinq brifters

[@varez93]

@@headslash55 You are right, I forgot that one. Unfortunately it seems like Tout Terrain does not offer them anymore except for their own bikes. I will edit my comment.

[@davidhammer2854]

I recently converted my Priority w/pinion to the Cinq cable shifting with drop bars. Works beautifully! Not sure that the Tout Terrain is a good value proposition with this option. Anyone wants a pic just let me know. Shepherdstown Pedal and Paddle did the conversion - ask to speak to Reed.

[@JibbaJabber]

Great vid. I've been waiting for someone to implement/test something like this for quite a while. Could be a great commuting setup as well. More Pinion, please.

[@tobiascarlberg2204]

I've been looking for a bike like this for years! Gravel with belt makes so much sense. Next step is to add a dropper post!

[@simonderoo9189]

Trp has a mechanical shifter for drop bars that works with the mechanical pinion. Tout Terrain shipped some of their gravelbikes like this.

[@unklesannjay]

Haha that's awkward!

[@simonderoo9189]

@@unklesannjay not really there are benefits to both systems, I didn't know that you could use the e 12 pinion on a non ebike, only saw it on Stromer st5 and st7s. So pretty cool video

[@lazydad1]

That's interesting, I didn't know about that option. $849 or so for the conversion is not too bad, but I like the electric solution 🙂

[@treimar]

There are also some niche retrofit options out there where you can use GRX for example.

[@jaro6985]

Way way better than this option.

[@MrProtour]

Cool insight into the pinion system, thanks for making this content

[@rff999]

I bought a full suspension all mountain bike three years ago with gates belt and rohloff rear hub. I have been riding it all over Switzerland, mostly offroad and absolutely LOVE it. Very happy with it!

[@Tre7we88]

Great little feature and for me, this is what sets the channel apart from others. More of this please.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

HILITE shift adapter allows you to use some Shimano, Seam and Campa shifters with pinion gearboxes

[@Mapdec]

i'll tell dave. lol. I just googled. Looks like a solid solution. Thanks for telling us about it.

[@sportsrecoveryonline8802]

Brilliant Vid, well done Dave!! 👏Love everything about this, especially the bar tape 🎉😄

[@matejzima8210]

More of these! I love these experimental/paradigm challenging tech and even more with comments from the brilliant Mapdec team.

[@randallsmith7885]

This is an awesome video. Thank you! The bike looks like it could handle a suspension fork.

[@brendangormley-e3x]

Great stuff Dave, world of knowledge, you don't look like a man who is retired by the way 🙂

[@iancantrill5961]

I’d love to see a video about Dave’s India trip

[@rexlybrand6688]

That was exactly what I was looking for. I have a Priority 600x and would love to get it setup for the TRP drop bar electronic shifting. Thanks!!!

[@rafaeldegiacomoaraujo8778]

Very nice build!

[@johnmorrissey41]

That bar tape is cool. What is it?

[@OjStudios]

Try a search for: "west biking handlebar tape"

[@PeakTorque]

Imagine this: Pinion 12sp up front, Classified reduction gear out back with the pulley mated to the hub, all wrapped up in the new TRP/Classified Vistar shifters. Slightly larger rear pulley and chainring for better efficiency (lower belt tension), and you have the ultimate adventure bike gearing that will also climb walls!

[@Mapdec]

What’s the slowest you could ride without falling off 😂. Could be good for a trailer set up with a couple of kids and a dog in tow.

[@JippaJ]

Not sure how you would make classified hub belt compatible?

[@PeakTorque]

@@JippaJ would need a special pulley that goes onto the hub. Pretty simple to design in fact i may even do it if i ever get a pinion bike.

[@joshuanebgen4589]

There are mechanical Rohloff x Pinion builts

[@lazlo2511]

Very cool… nice change of pace

[@Flash_of_the_peat_hill]

Well, now I know what I am buying next. Excellent video guys.

[@scs32]

For those who would like to just buy that bike... Priority Gemini Ti is nearly identical. Great bike.

[@thomaskuhn6541]

Thanks, I'd love to see more videos like this.

[@Tokyomodeldetective]

Amazing!!! Video!! Love that gear box

[@allrounderbicycle7193]

threw me off a second there at 2:26. But it's a good idea for those who may be running mechanical brakes and want a different lever shape under their hands. Great video. YEs to more staff builds.

[@sealeytools]

Awesome channel. Love your videos!

[@Mapdec]

Thanks so much!

[@ivans3806]

0:30 It's a bit funny to watch knowing that there is high chance Dave's bike cost more than some of these cars :)

[@Mapdec]

Umm. Yeah. I hadn’t thought of that. Mad mad world.

[@ivans3806]

@@Mapdec the difference between mass-produced goods where lots of talented engineers spent literal work-years to squeeze every possible cost-reduction and optimization, vs boutique-level hand picked components, made to fit specific user and later on even machined for best results.

[@VerthNeel]

Let us see more videos like this one.

[@MattRose30000]

I have ridden a gravel bike with pinion rotary shifters and drop bars. so it's totally possible, though not really convenient imho. it was just a test ride, so idk what tech they exactly used. I think they had special, small diameter bars.

[@jakubharwacki]

For this kind of gearbox Archer could create something like D1x Trail Shifter But with two cables pulled simultaneously. It would be cheaper and easier to replace.

[@bushflyr7335]

Great bike, but you REALLY need to upgrade that rear wheel. Going with an Onyx SS hub like I have on my Zerode allows for a much wider spoke spread for greater strength and also, with instant engagement, mitigates the slop in the gearbox for quicker pedal engagement.

[@Mapdec]

Oh. You have a Zerode. Nice.

[@alfabethev2.074]

Now this was an unusual and interesting episode, tnx.

[@jasonhumphries6131]

I had this same idea but backed out when I heard they are like 35 lbs (even though weight is low COG and below rider at the crank)

[@arnoklocke3003]

There is a product on thé market hibox shift adapter that allows to stay fully mechanical using shifters from Shimano or campagnolo. It's an interesting option if you dont want to go electronic

[@BruceChastain]

I love the bike and even the idea of the gear-box system. But would have been possible to just use some sort of ratio converter for the cable pull? I would personally rather not have electronic shifting.

[@bigredactionsportsstuff1245]

I’ve been considering the maintenance free bike, great to see this featured

[@andygrace3825]

Nice work and great review

[@Silidons91]

I'm sure someone else commented this, but if you wanted drop bars, all you needed was the cinq shifters...you didn't have to go electronic

[@irumwhite4459]

More this type of content please

[@markmoreno7295]

It is very comforting to know that the two gearboxes bolt up to the same spot on the cradle. Also nice to know that I can swap out from cable to electric shifting. What you did not mention was if there was any change at all to the Q angle? Not sure if I heard how many gears your original gearbox had because some people may wish to switch out from, say a 12 speed to a 18 speed gearbox at the same time. Plus for those of us with steel frames, how much did your finished bike weigh?

[@_J.F_]

I like the idea of the gearbox, manual or electrical, but it is of course one of those things where if something goes wrong, which seemingly isn't very likely, then there is really nothing most ordinary people can do about it and your trip comes to an end.

[@Mapdec]

totally valid.

[@simoncarter-by7yh]

I do love titanium bike

[@patrickbonner4841]

These countries are Amazing

[@seakayaker20]

yip, more please. very interesting.

[@LM42]

Awesome video

[@pascalbruyere7108]

I did stuff like that with a 1975 3x5 steel Peugeot road bike rim brakes and friction shifters and it was good enough, and repairable anywhere. Best of all it could be abandoned if wrecked and replaced locally by something equivalent. Now of course these new tech make for KZbin content but I don’t think they are a good idea for third world traveling, or any traveling more than a couple hundred miles away from your frame builder and competent and well furnished bike shop. Let me give you another example: I toured in Cuba some years ago. I went there and bought a local used bike for $150. Basically your typical huffy supermarket mountain bike: perfect for the place. I met a couple of retires from holland, on beautiful suspended gear hub etc bikes: they were always sooo worried: they could not get their eyes off their bikes, in fear of theft, and dreaded breaking anything, especially drive trains and wheels/tires, disks etc, none of which would have been replaceable over there. In countries where people travel on bikes and in general use bikes as transportation, just use whatever they use.

[@DR_1_1]

Can't see a loaded road bike on some of these trails 00:48, although if these are only a few hundreds meters long, you can just walk the bike...

[@ThunderStruckMTB]

Very cool video! He's got a bigger set than me taking a Dremel and drill to his Ti frame. I have to wonder about rattling in the downtube? Did he use any foam that wasn't shown during the build?

[@CadenzaCycles-GreveInChianti]

Great bike development, thanks for sharing! And where can I find that bar tape? Keep up the good work!

[@Some-Guy-]

That bar tape is awesome! What is it?

[@BazzDunk]

I was more interested in the Olson frames what is your opinion on them, as cannot really find many reviews, maybe have not looked hard enough, but was looking at the Olson with pinion for ease of maintenance, as I have already bought into the gates belt drive and now want all three titanium, gates and pinion. I now see Alpkit do a complete bike too with that spec, was looking at Pilot a few years ago but they are just out of my budget.

[@Joshuavoice29]

Great video!

[@scottlstone]

Love this channel

[@Mapdec]

🙏

[@Mapdec]

Spread the word.

[@doctorscoot]

Always been interested in belt drives and either pinion or Rolhoff gearing. I’ve seen people ask ‘how reliable are belts’ on other channels and I have to laugh - don’t they know that belts are used inside car engines? (your timing belt which does 100k under much greater loads)! It’s a pity the pinion requires a dedicated mount, which makes me think that the Rolhoff is a better solution for an existing bike frame.

[@A1vee]

Nice vid, any links to Dave’s presentation of his India trip?

[@kubagornowicz]

I'd love to switch to pinion and belt - but may wallet is not convinced at all.

[@rexlybrand6688]

My priority 600x was only $2200 on sale. Less than a road wheelset!

[@sabamacx]

I wonder how you handled the work-hardening property of titanium when you were making the frame modifications.

[@Mapdec]

Not much more than what you saw. Tungsten Carbide tools, lubricant, not letting things get hot. If we were working on a customers bike we would warn them of the risks and how we would be careful to avoid them, and we would detail all of this in writing.

[@KNURKonesur]

Yes, titanium is definitely the future for me :)

[@MorganBrown]

Real curious if anyone has looked at total drivetrain losses for belt drive + internal gearing vs traditional chain & gears?

[@timtaylor9590]

is that frame an xs?

[@ROF-uw9kr]

Curios on the longevity of the electrical components that come with the new pinion system. Obviously the mechanical cables would stretch (I believe? Correct me if I’m wrong not 100% up to scratch on them😂). Will they pack up after so many miles or will they be as reliable as modern chain equivalents or be even better

[@headslash55]

There are currently pinion gearboxes around that have done more than 100k one even 300k+ afaik. They will be more durable compared to cassettes, no question about that.

[@99Odjob]

Great video, many thanks. Can I ask where you sourced the trp brakes and shifters from? I've looked everywhere for some!

[@Mapdec]

Upgrade bikes.

[@WarrenBurton-gd6ye]

What kind of drill bits did you use to drill the Titanium? Anything special? or just hard steel? . I have a Ti frame that I would like to add ports to for a dropper,

[@Mapdec]

They were a carbide set.

[@seppel2077]

yes please, show ur bikes!

[@Chazz4804]

What handlebar was put on? Thanks

[@thomasdemontlivault5647]

Very interesting content!

[@GazRadCycling]

Every once in a while I see a bike I’d really like to ride, its rare these days but I’d love to try this out!

[@Tarmaccyclocross]

Get to specsavers

[@chris_gb_]

Love the idea of a low maintenance bike like this! Very interested to hear more about the experience of using the belt drive long term. IIRC Francis Cade mentioned a sales rep saying the belts do slip under load sometimes, can't remember if he said when it's wet or when mud builds up, or both, does it happen much? I've experienced chain jump/slip and it's something that I do live in fear of an OTB or teeth smashed on the bar incident as I'm surrounded by very steep gradients, and that''s when it usually happens.

[@Mapdec]

Hopefully Dave will chip in here.

[@lazydad1]

I've never had the belt slip, I don't believe it could physically jump the teeth if properly tensioned. However the gearbox freewheel mechanism DOES occasionally slip a tooth under load - I think it only happens after a gear change under load when the pawls don't fully engage first time. It's not a big problem.

[@chris_gb_]

@@lazydad1 thanks for the reply, are you Dave from the video?

[@lazydad1]

@@chris_gb_ yes, that's me!

[@drill_fiend1097]

I wonder if you could go further and put MGU into one of these Ti dropbar gravel bike, with easily accessible battery. That'd be a thrilling eBike that will last long and haul stuff well.

[@szauszabolcs5148]

Hmm, the XC bikes from the 90's are having a renaissance? Ok, it have a bigger, faster wheels, modern components and a bit curvy handlebars. But otherwise have the same vibes. Which is not a bad thing btw. :)

[@chrisaldred6030]

Can I ask what bar tape that is please?

[@Mapdec]

I’ll try and find out. Dave like to keep his finds secret

[@chrisaldred6030]

I'll be ordering it from you.😊

[@huhummmmmmm]

Now if pinion (and Rohloff) wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

[@gonewiththewheels8424]

I built my first touring bike with a Rohloff gearbox, and it served me well overall. However, the hub generated quite a lot of friction, especially when stopping pedalling. I wonder if the Pignon's friction is less noticeable. Thank you. Ps, nice video as usual

[@lazydad1]

Because it's a standard Pacenti hub with HG freehub, friction is the same as a derailleur equipped bike, ie. negligible

[@jaro6985]

- added weight - added complexity - reduced reliability - reduced shifting speed Trying to think what part of this is an upgrade..

[@arvidriedel2330]

You are right in that term. But I also think that this is the best way to use a pinion with a drop bar

[@JippaJ]

Don't knock it before you try it :)

[@Tarmaccyclocross]

Too true bloody awful

[@NelsonSherry]

Really, "Probably the future of gravel bikes." I don't think so! We've had Ti bikes with exotic drive trains for decades, and they've never become anything more than exotic novelties, and they will likely stay that way for good reasons, price, weight, and performance are all compromised compared to more mainstream alternatives.

[@patrickbonner4841]

Wow dude

[@aintnobodygottime4dat]

A shame Pinion didn't find a mechanical shift solution for drop bars......

[@darrin2382]

agree with other comments - its an explorer bike not a gravel bike. I'm not racing on that thing!

[@adamhindle9215]

Tough touring bikes are always a good build challenge. For 21 days riding it's questionable whether you need any more than 1x mechanical though. Also, it looks like it is running 650b wheels, which is an odd choice if this is the case. Did you not think 700c were strong enough? What about a 700c on the front, at least?

[@davemeise2192]

I want to see a Pinion motor and gearbox combo on a bike. That with a belt drive? Great combination! Pinion should make it available for customers who are willing to modify their bikes to make it fit/work.

[@headslash55]

You mean the pinion mgu?

[@bushflyr7335]

You mean the Nicolai Saturn 16 MGU?

[@headslash55]

@@bushflyr7335 I'm reffering to the motor itself. The Nicolai is only one of many bikes currently with the motor

[@davemeise2192]

@@headslash55 yes

[@philr696]

So with thw magnet on the crank does that mean no stationary shifting?

[@Mapdec]

Excellent question. I shall ask.

[@lazydad1]

@@philr696 stationary shifting works as normal, the magnet just times the shift to TDC when pedaling for minimum torque

[@vidiia]

Not quite sure why you'd want to add the potential failure point of electronic shifting to a drivetrain designed for ultra-low maintenance riding, but to each their own.

[@chasejiannalone8763]

So he goes to a mechanical shifter to electronic which will require recharging a battery. How is this keeping it simple? He has now just limited his travel possibilities all for a drop bar?

[@lazydad1]

As I say at the end, this works great for my intended use, for a round-the-world tour bike I would stick with mechanical shifting.

[@chasejiannalone8763]

@@lazydad1 I saw that after I wrote the comment. I think flat bars are so much more comfy. But Im an MTB guy.

[@jasonhumphries6131]

just needs a Lauf front fork :)

[@pet_ti]

Does anybody know what bag he put on the rack? It looks like a tailfin kind of bag but made for conventional racks. Edit: I found it myself. It is a custom/self made bag. You can find instructions at prickly gorse in the tutorial section.

[@Thegentlegoon]

I have a feeling if he was really honest with us he would say the reach is unusable lol

[@JohnPowell6]

Couldn't you have just replaced the rotary shifter with a generic friction shifter and skipped the electrical shifter altogether?

[@ilikewasabe]

How they change the belt when its worn off

[@chris_gb_]

Belt compatible frames have split stays, so you can remove a small section and pass the belt through.

[@Mapdec]

Join at the seat stay / chain stay

[@felixjackson2670]

Interesting. Lots of faffing about though. However seeing that you use Time pedals has put you in my ‘positive’ category.

[@lazydad1]

You call it faffing, but as a trained aerospace engineer I do like a challenge 🙂. And yes I do think Time ATAC pedals are the best off-road clipless pedals out there 👍

[@peroperic3692]

Other manufacturers: Kocmo from Berlin and soon Rennstahl and Falkenjagd from Munich 😎

[@peroperic3692]

Check out the Kocmo Daytona Pinion Smart Shift with blue anodized fork 😍

[@peroperic3692]

For the US viewers- Priority bikes has an alloy and titanium version

[@nr619]

i would not take a ti bike full of electronics for such far away trips .... nobody can repair it in remote places but steel or cables can be fixed anywhere most of the time

[@jeffpittman8725]

Hopefully not at the price of a motorbike. Lots of gravel bikes already out there at a fraction of the cost. Grab an old MTB, put a rigid fork on it and instantly you have a gravel bike 😮

[@bicivini]

Still wonder that nearly none is using Pinion for ultra endurance races like Divide, Silk Road, Atlas etc. - seems for completely non-competition riding it‘s fine, otherwise not competitive as a system. But interested to hear opinions though. Cheers

[@Mapdec]

I think a big part of that is availability of frames, various sponsor tie ups and licencing agreements with other component brands.

[@bicivini]

@@Mapdec fully get that aspect as a former Pro, but in these races are lots of privateers and % of Pinion is below 1% when looking into starter lists. Availability of spare parts in most shops around the world may a reason too? Or a flaw in this system when it comes to efficiency / performance? Would be keen to know more about. Your work is appreciated, keep on rolling 🙌🏽

[@chris_gb_]

Belt drive and gearbox each add a significant amount of drag vs a chain and sprocket: additional ~1% loss for the belt ~4.5% for the gearbox. It doesn't matter enough for a utility bike, but I assume would deter most if not all racers? Mainly it seems to be e-bikes driving the innovation and uptake of gearboxes and belt drives, because the extra drag matters so much less vs the motor assist.

[@lazydad1]

@@chris_gb_ that's interesting info, can you point me to the source of those efficiency figures please?

[@bicivini]

@@chris_gb_ your response is much appreciated! That was my assumption, but I didn’t have data. Thanks

[@zdravo4]

So it’s wireless with wires. Siple as clipless with clips right 😂

[@ecnaruaL]

This is barely concealed ad for Pinion's new electronic shifting surely? As many have commented below, there are manual shift options that would have avoided the rather drastic step of replacing the entire gearbox and, hacking holes in Dave's Ti frame. Not to mention rendering the bike less than ideal for future off the beaten track adventure riding due to the complications of electronic shifting.

[@patrickbonner4841]

Frame looks very strong and stiff

[@jonathand3842]

People are here buying $3000 tatinium gravel bikes meanwhile I'm here with my B'TWIN $450 road bike cruising around in the forest lmao. To be fair I do need larger gravel tires because of the sandy paths. God road bikes hate sand

[@trailfork7815]

ah yes a rigid xc bike with a gearbox, we have finally come full circle

[@Mapdec]

Almost. 80mm suspension fork and an elastomer in the rear triangle.

[@trailfork7815]

@@Mapdecwe'll probably be seeing more of that on next year's models and then they'll push for flat handlebars and droppers

[@GNX157]

In the clips of his trip, it seemed to me like his seat was a bit too high.

[@Mapdec]

🤷‍♂️

[@greengonzonz]

Absolutely beautiful bike ❤

[@Tarmaccyclocross]

Get to specsavers it’s a dog

[@Tarmaccyclocross]

Specsavers