This Is What Spa-Francorchamps COULD have been... | SouthPawRacer's Soapbox

Some proposals for Spa exist out there, and I take a look at them.
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[@MrMichkov]

Regarding dead and broke links, the racinglines mirror of the Racing Circuits database is pretty much the 2005 version of the site. And still one of the best resources around for obscure tracks together with gdecarli. Which is static as of 2014 as I understand. I've taken to updating the Fastlane's mirror of the Racing Circuits database, which is a long way of what I want it to be, but Spa is up to date at the moment. I recall throwing out the figure 8 proposal back when I did the update because it seemed so outlandish given the elevations. I also heard of an early proposal that would have had a different section between Malmedy and Stavelot before the original circuit got build in the 1920s. Finally there is the 24h 2CV layout that used all kinds of access roads and the track in both directions. To quote Rob Semmeling: "A new 24-hour race specifcally for Citroen 2CVs debuted in 1985. Initially, this used an utterly bizarre circuit layout of 4.828 km, which ran from Les Combes to Stavelot and then back again over a service road behind the guard rails, so as to avoid having to close off the non-permanent part of the circuit for traffc. The fastest lap of the 1987 race was a 3.06,89 = 93.0 km/h. In 1989, the 2CV marathon race used an even crazier layout. This reportedly measured some 9.5 km (!), and although the exact layout is not known, photos show it included the old start-fnish section down to Eau Rouge - using the left-hand lane of the track - before diving left to l'Ancienne Douane (a corner not used for racing since 1939), later coming down Raidillon (!) and back to the start via what would normally be the right-hand lane of the track - indeed, that part of the circuit was divided in two using plastic traffc barriers and used in both directions...! " Anyway enough rambling, I leave you with a couple of links for future videos of this kind.Nürbyring www.the-fastlane.co.uk/racingcircuits/Germany/NurburgringProposal1978A.htmlSuzuka www.the-fastlane.co.uk/racingcircuits/Japan/SuzukaOrigProposal1.htmlRCDBs proposed circuits section www.the-fastlane.co.uk/racingcircuits/_type/_proposed.html

[@erwinlommer197]

At least for me none of the spa links open from your last link. All I get is "It looks like nothing was found at this location. Try the search below."

[@MrMichkov]

Apologies, one of the problems of updating the website of that size is that there will inevitably be some 404 links in it until its done. Here is the Spa page with the proposals, most of them are in the video www.the-fastlane.co.uk/racingcircuits/Tracks/BEL/Spa.html#P05nat

[@PescaraProductions]

You can't possibly imagine the amount of money I'd pay to see footage of that 2cv layout

[@MrMichkov]

Same here. On a whim I plugged 1985 2CV Spa into the search bar and found this kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnimeIWPlN13Z8U Nothing on 1989 though.

[@Quintinohthree]

Reading your comments has reignited my desire to figure out the unknown layouts of the 1985 and 1989 24H 2CV circuits. I'm almost convinced I've got something for the 1985 variant. For the exit from the infield onto the track, this video at 3:04 shows it is immediately after Malmedy (the right hander after Les Combes) kzbin.info/www/bejne/mai1oH2IbJeNfq8 For the infield entry I refer to this video at 2:21 onwards: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4G6gIykgK15ors in the background it seems the Stavelot tunnel is shown, so the entry seems to be the one halfway between Campus and Stavelot curve, and the curves in the road after back this up. Connecting these with the track between them and the modern perimeter road, a length of 4,828 km can be measured on Google Earth (with some wiggle room in that final digit), corroberating this. Have I uncovered the layout, or was this already figured out elsewhere but little publicized?

[@drunk3n_m0nk12]

The original "How to ruin a racetrack" FIA edition.

[@MrMichkov]

TIL the FIA has time travel capabilities

[@nattiedraws]

@@MrMichkov Or perhaps Southpaw went back in time, took from the FIA's ideas here and then jumped back to the future to make youtube videos about the same basic idea

[@CharlesB9496]

That first layout is what would inspire a young man named Herman Tilke

[@Soonjai]

Was thinking the same thing. The Layout, without any context of it's topography of the area it is located in, looks terrifyingly like a Tilke Design.

[@urbanwalrus8993]

With all the long straights leading into tight corners, several hairpins and never ending turns, it's 100% a Tilke track before it was a thing.

[@TenorCantusFirmus]

Yes, me too have thought it would have been disturbingly "Tilkesque"...

[@tiutubanana7506]

Do you guys realize Tilke has made a lot of good tracks like Malasya, Barhain, Estambul, etc

[@Soonjai]

@@tiutubanana7506 Some of his Redesigns like the Red Bull Ring or Hockenheim aren't that bad, Rudskogen is solid as well, but as for his entirely original Tracks IMO only Istanbul is even worth mentioning and that can't really compare to legendary Tracks like Spa or Suzuka. Some of his more minor Tracks might be good as well, don't know all of them, but his original F1 Tracks are either Street Circuits or feel like they should be in a city, they have no good flow what so ever and they all feel the same.

[@PizzaFaceGuy]

*_S E C O N D G E A R H A I R P I N S_*

[@amphobius]

I'd love a video about Suzuka in a similar vein - there's a lot of... interesting proposals in its history, for one way of putting it.

[@oriolgonzalez9328]

3:22 "never ending left hander..." I know the track is too much for a sane brain, but surely you still knew your lefts from your rights...

[@SouthPawRacer]

It's a problem that happens far more often than I'd like.

[@MrMichkov]

Essentially Burnenville

[@MrZantkiller]

I hope we get a future video with Jackie Stewart's preferred Monaco proposal - the one that went to France and back...

[@montruo000000007]

Really? Didn’t know at all about that!

[@arnaur2870]

When u said second gear hairpin i had flashbacks lol

[@nicolesgaming8917]

I had flashbacks when I saw the second gear hairpin infestation.

[@jeracerx]

The first one looks like a bitchin Mario Kart track

[@fartvader84yearsago8]

4:58 Spa-Francorlegs... Looks like a kiwi

[@lisawensink6906]

2:12 that is just Japan China Hungary Us And Azerbaijan In 1 circuit

[@benhaley3736]

And the Pocono infield, with the *second gear hairpin*

[@veronviper06]

The second one was a Hokenheim clone it seems

[@kain5637]

but taking the bad parts instead of the good parts

[@rucarnuts13]

It’s hard to say which track version I’d like best. On paper; I definitely prefer the current layout. But... I wish I could try them all out on Assetto Corsa, Automobilista or iRacing. I think seeing them in a more tangible way would be a huge insight, as the potential elevation change is just a bit mind-blowing to me. ... Also, please do a super serious track guides on Sonoma Raceway - that or butcher the track with a horrific redesign. :)

[@MazandJazz]

Take a look at the F1 plan for Donnington Park (uk). The old Dunlop bridge went, they dug up half the infield....then ran out of cash

[@AdamChristo]

boygoodj both bridges are now gone. 😩

[@C.I...]

@@AdamChristo I know, lets completely demolish the most iconic feature of our circuit!

[@AdamChristo]

@@C.I... There was rumours they were going to put it over the M6 in Birmingham near Fort Dunlop, before Dunlop got kicked out by Jaguar Landrover.

[@Gordanovich02]

Someone should make that Spazuka layout in a sim. With the elevation changes it would probably be a really good track to drive.

[@joshcaminski]

The Red Bull ring circuit before it was redesigned by Tilke is something worth a look at, there is also a onboard lap by Nakajima of that circuit, it's insane

[@noobiix007]

I finally know that I'm not an alien thanks to you! I also love looking at maps and maps of racetracks, what a strange hobby we have lmao

[@psychlops924]

I am in complete agreement with your first four statements. This is how I know we would be best friends if I didn’t live on the complete opposite side of the world.

[@gavinmills2806]

I think the final proposal you showed is my favourite out of all them, I think because it still has the same shape as the original and therefore looks like Spa still. The second layout just looks like some wild animal with extremely tall legs!

[@stijnpaspont]

The second and last layout make you take blanchimont at aproximatelly 700 km/h.

[@KyleP133]

That insane crossover thing... I cant imagine what they were thinking. I guess it was all the rage back then. I think Suzuka had a crossover already so there was precedent for it, but the track looks like something I would have scribbled on some paper with a crayon at 3 years old. Its interesting how several of those tracks used that same strip of road between pouhon and campus. I wonder if a public road already existed there, or maybe its just a natural place to put a road given the terrain.

[@dylancotton2061]

That first layout. I think should be built somewhere in the world 😂

[@escwithbart2003]

Spa's current layout looks like a bird while flying The layout shown at 4:56 looks like a bird with a pair of jeans on 😂😂😂

[@alaeriia01]

I thought Spa looked a bit more like an Uzi.

[@EthanCookereal]

Loving all these uploads

[@sabre0smile]

I love these vids, the second gear hairpins and cough urge stuff always cracks me up.

[@oskarstobinski4522]

Well... i Think the last one of the versions might be the best but only if you leave out the real Spa of today. I just Can not belive that they all wanted to get Rid of the best corner combination in the world

[@AdamChristo]

Oskar Stobinski maybe they all felt that part of the track was too dangerous. In fact it use to be a hard left into a right hand hairpin at eau rouge before blending back into le raddillion.

[@owenmacrowski]

Wow! I also love looking at maps of tracks, and enjoy the fun challenge of making new ones. It really fascinates me when I See these failed attempts at making a better spa. I would love to see more of these sort of video going foreward, if possible 😀

[@Dan-Bartlett]

I had absolutely no idea the track had so many proposed layout ideas. Excellent vid, mate!

[@peterdaviesracing]

Beautiful. Brilliant. Mesmerizing. I give it a "2nd gear hairpin" out of ten, would shift into second again.

[@bubblefroggy1]

Always a joy to watch your videos! Brilliant! Thanks! I had some good laughs.

[@SteamKing2160]

2nd Gear Hairpin

[@tensor120]

Cool video. I really love the first showed layout out. I'm always for bridges on track!

[@the_puzzle3412]

What astonishes me most about the classic spa is that after a couple of years the track owners decided that the track is still way too slow and that 3 harpins are 2 too much. So they've built the Eau Rouge / Radillion section and added an extremely fast right hand corner outside the town of Stavelot.

[@ChrisR673]

That first one gives me a precursor-vibe for things like 'Complex String' from GT3. Figure 8 in the late 60's? - DO IT!

[@iamlarsen7896]

Some of these proposals line up suspiciously well with the layout they went with in the end

[@eamonahern7495]

I like the sitting down with its legs to the left looking one. That with eau rouge/Raidillon and the modern bus stop chicane and pits would be a great circuit, I think.

[@AntTheMeepasaur]

The Nurburgring GP-Strecke had a few different proposals before the final layout much like Spa (and Suzuka like amphobius mentioned), I reckon that could be interesting to look at.

[@AntTheMeepasaur]

About the proposals of Spa in the video, it's interesting to see how although the layout we got possibly may not have been the best, it by far and away would've aged much better than the other proposals, except maybe the first one.

[@marcinwojciak2893]

Best idea for videos ever ! Please do more of those!

[@SajuGraphics]

I would love for this to become a series, really interesting stuff

[@troyhawn6163]

Love your content my dude

[@slowster2945]

Fantastic video! I think the 4th variation, if cut with some of the current track, might've made the best option of all these, but then I really do love the current layout. Maybe they could stand to alter the bus stop a little, but it is the 2nd most iconic track on the F1 calendar for a reason.

[@DoubleTime53]

Would be cool to see a similar video of Fuji.

[@tomanderson6335]

I'd love to see the original plans for the oval, but I fear they may have been lost to history (or at least locked away in a vault somewhere).

[@MrMichkov]

I'd like to see them too. But at least with the first corner build and the proposed length (2.5mi iirc) one could extrapolate from there for a layout.

[@alaeriia01]

Solution: replace Fuji with the Fuji Helexicon from Speed Racer and see if Red Bull's car really can drive upside-down as they claim.

[@DoubleTime53]

@@alaeriia01 I mean, it could if they could figure out how to keep the engine running upside down.

[@ramchickedy9570]

@@tomanderson6335 there is some sort of drawing available on the net. It is not really a plan, but more a picturesque impression of what it might have looked like! Seen from above the Daiichi bank.

[@seanomatopoeia]

Great video Rhys!

[@AdrienMinot]

Yeaaah ! It's like "how to ruin a racetrack" (i know you won't make some anymore) but with some real stories, i like it ! 👌

[@natelecarde962]

The first one reminds me of the original Monza layout.

[@JuggernuatG]

You had me in stitches @ 2:11 That layout 😂

[@Ian-oe9wp]

looks like the track is a lengthed version of the high speed ring from gran turismo

[@hihi-fi8by]

Which one

[@NotHyperion]

@@hihi-fi8by the high speed ring

[@jonny6835]

Suzuka had some interesting proposals when first built. Would like to see more video's like this.

[@aloter1680]

Secteur one (exept the fact that there isn't any eay rouge) is pretty cool

[@PescaraProductions]

The scary thing about this video is that with the safety concerns brought up over the Eau Rouge/Radillion complex in light of recent events, we could be looking at this kind of stuff again, mainly around the re-profiling of a certain corner. :/

[@AdamChristo]

Pescara Productions maybe back then it was more of a real corner with a proper brake and downshift. It’s only due to Downforce that we hang on boarder line flat out.

[@PescaraProductions]

@@AdamChristo I think a lot of casual race fans never really realise the way it's been straightened out over the years, I always remember Jackie Stewart talking about how it used to be more of a corner. Then there's the true horror that was the 1994 F1 version...

[@AdamChristo]

Pescara Productions well eau rouge use to be a hard left into a big ish hairpin. You can still see the tarmac in google mapa

[@Tom_Hadler]

You like maps, & you like racetracks...you remind me of me. These videos are so nerdy but I kind of enjoy them

[@mtakala82]

Please do more of these!

[@sofussgaardchristiansen520]

This is a very nice video idea Keep it up

[@MauriceWijma]

The only part I don't like about the current layout is the last chicane. It used to be the "busstop chicane" like a short left-right-short-right-lefter. It held a little more speed, but also brought it down enough to have effect. What it is now (and what it has been in between) is a break in the rhythm. But maybe it is just because I am very used to the old one.

[@13crbx]

Great topic... Please consider a video about Interlagos, its old amazing layout and the various ideas that led to current layout

[@lightfeather9953]

"second gear hairpin" in slow motion lol nice video as usual

[@TheKincognito]

I saw the Thumbnail and was like: Wait, you said you won't ruin Racetracks anymore....

[@fernandes5986]

And I tought I was the only lunatic who cared about this stuff. Great video. Please do more.

[@fernandes5986]

The current layout is the best, of all the ones you showed. However I prefer the old longer layout as seen on Frakenheimer's Grand Prix.

[@daltonbedore8396]

i thought this was going to be one of the videos where you ruin a circuit but this was a interesting topic i enjoyed just as much!

[@viel.anthony]

2:28 is basically a Tilke track but larger.

[@KayoMichiels]

That first proposal, looks like the worst of the worst of the Tilkedromes all bunched together to form this... 'thing'..

[@dsfmotorsports1464]

1:29 I S T H I S Z O L D E R ?

[@Alstevens83]

I love the current version of Spa (Spa 98 was the race that made me a diehard F1/motorsport fan), and thanks to Project cars 2 had a chance to try the classic Spa layout and I can understand why they made the changes in general. However, out of the scrapped proposals, I think the second layout you showed when it goes into itself and then back on to what would be the current layout leading into La Source would have been a fun track to race on. Would it have been safer? Probably not but that middle section would have been a fun section to drive.

[@iLiokardo]

fantastic content

[@jeremeymcdude]

we all know what M Schmitz was thinking of when he designed that Spa Layout.

[@unlike_common9425]

I actually like the first design, enough chance to overtake and it has something of everything that makes a good circuit as far as I can tell.

[@martijnkosters9024]

That track at the end of the lap for the Sport Moteur layout is an old railroad between Spa (town) and Stavelot.

[@doubleutubefan5]

The first one looked like a Go-Kart track. Something you would find at an amusement park that went overboard and made a twisty course with an overpass. one that the general pubic would constantly crash on.

[@FranciscoFuckYeah]

My reaction with the first: OMG What a Tilkeing

[@alaeriia01]

It would be an insane track if it weren't replacing Spa.

[@Alex_Mac_]

This is a great video

[@minimaniac7127]

id really like to try the one with the bridge, seems really fun cause of the extrem elevations

[@hexostatus4658]

This should be a series once the more proposed layouts of the each track is found

[@fajar13k]

Glad this came across to my recommendation. Next stop, Monza maybe?

[@ElChasco_official]

Please. Make more videos about track proposals!

[@discodavid26]

The Spa modern track compared to the old 60s circuit is a very rare beast off a track that got shorter (by almost half!) and upgraded and yet because of it … it became a better track instead off worse…… there’s not even many tracks that stayed as equally good when they’re gone though a change on the scale that spa did .

[@veronviper06]

That second track is the first half of spa and the second half on hokenheim. You can’t even argue.

[@ArgonByte]

That layout at 2:11 looks awesome

[@shig.bitz.3205]

I've been to Spa irl in '05 or '04 for the 24hrs (it was won by a Vitaphone Maserati MC12 might have been Fabio Babini at the wheel) anyway I'd like to reiterate everything you said about elevation change at that circuit. I'm from the UK and have visited a few tracks regularly, mainly Silverstone, Donnington and Brands Hatch and even Silverstone (ex RAF airfield) has it's ups n downs, but I was not ready for Spa. These days we take bikes often but I'm so glad I was at Spa on foot. I would have surely died from exhaustion had I been cycling. Watching on TV you really can't tell how steep some of the elevation changes are and you have no idea of how far from everything you are. Sure there are a couple small villages but the track is huge and in some parts when you're in ancient forest wilderness, hearing race cars in the middle of the night, it's incredibly surreal.

[@AdamChristo]

I wish it was still possible to experience some of the original layouts in the newer race cars, Spa, A1 ring, Monza, Hockenheim, the speeds would have been insane.

[@jibathus]

Spa would be perfect if they put the bus stop back in.

[@alaeriia01]

The first layout shows promise. I would keep the modern start/finish straight into La Source, Eau Rouge, and Radillon, deviate onto that insane mountain side-trek, keep the weird crossover and cascading hairpins, but after that right-hander, join into the existing layout right before the S-bend so it becomes a triple ess. What do you think?

[@vycanismelodis]

sorry but i just can't ignore Those Legs on the second one... thunder thighs francorchamps

[@SouthPawRacer]

Every day is leg day

[@Ralyertheonly]

8:12 He speaks about Rouen les Essarts. Nothing to add, do a video about Rouen. About this video, about the proposals of Spa, it's hard to imagine how the layout would have to evolve until today, the curent layout only change about the parking area, I mean the run-off area and the chicane bus stop, and i think the proposals would change more than that, they look so ... 1970, with some exception but when you see the 1970 tracks around the world and how they change today ... Well, if someboby create a way to go to an alternate universe, please tell us how Spa is.

[@W123KartSport]

Awesome

[@Disco_S]

I would like to see l' Ancienne Douane corner come back or part of it any way as there is a house on the inside of the corner now

[@yewisemountaingoat528]

Present day Spa kinda looks like an Uzi submachine gun. Lethal track too...

[@lillnemo1]

Wot?? A lethal track? How so??? It's a fun track, the radillon and the downhill hairpin is a bit tricky, but its not a dangerous track by any means

[@FightingTorque411]

@@lillnemo1 Did you miss the entire Anthoine Hubert thing all of one month ago?

[@jeffreytam7684]

6:20 Old Hockenheim 2.0, now with ups and downs.

[@Matias_sebastian]

also the first proposal is not bad at all, the only this Im concerned is the money. This would of been very expensive to build since theres a bridge section

[@Koragh_]

This is a cursed one lol The amount of accidentd and death people

[@christiancaratozzolo3478]

I like the first proposal you showed. It reminds me of japan with a complication x10 Designers: how do you lie tis figure of 8 layout. Keke Roseberg: Um! Ok!

[@SonicBoone56]

Should do more track proposal videos lol

[@jeeves_uk]

Someone clip that "2nd gear hairpin" bit and loop it for 10 hours

[@RacingAtHome]

The first one looked like a 3 year old trying to draw Shanghai but they only remembered 2 parts of it.

[@yewisemountaingoat528]

Keke Rosberg was right. And btw when I first played my first F1 game as a kid Spa was always my favorite track. Asking many of my friends quite a lot of them said Spa was their favorite too.

[@aprilkurtz1589]

It may have had an insane layout, but at least it wasn't another Tilkedrome. Actually, I like the track very much. It will be until they open the Nordeschliffe.

[@Benplay777]

The geography wouldn't work though, you might not realize how steep some of the hills around there. Going straight from Kemmel down to Pouhon would be not only steeper than Raidillon, but by quite a bit.

[@Locomattive8572]

Extremely interesting

[@deconstructionist1017]

can anyone explain me the second gear hairpins meme

[@jamesbisset9891]

TristanR32 this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6vNZK2PgZilb68

[@nicorosbergf1fan783]

What do you think about the old Bus stop chicane? Do you prefer it to the current layout?

[@ethanle3757]

5:00 spa but with pants

[@guenthersteiner9252]

5:07 looks like a weird ostrich