This made Disney look like an absolute joke...

[@Ron__Solo]

All they had to do was actually plan out a trilogy. But instead they worked on them individually as they went on. Absolutely baffling

[@TheScathed]

Disney be like: It worked for early Marvel. Why not here?

[@webguy943]

Incompitency

[@Tink2k]

They weren't in their own bubbles making the movies. They did discuss them. And there were other factors influencing the final movie - like Carrie's death. Did it require a whole new script? Only they know what the challenges were. Personally, I like what we got - especially the Force Dyad

[@LoyaltotheNightsky]

That's basically how the original trilogy was done as well. Hence the Luke and Leia incest weirdness, who Vader was supposed to be vs what he actually ended up as, etc. I'm not sure the perfectly crafted plan thing people go on about is really the big issue. Sometimes that actually works out better. There are a variety of factors that went wrong here.

[@brandonandujar2289]

@@Tink2k mental

[@joepeaden1661]

The kiss in the last scene was legitimately the most "what the fuck" moment I have ever experienced.

[@zoyadulzura7490]

I have not see the movie, but this made me laugh.

[@javierlopez9789]

I remember people in my theater booing the moment thay happened.

[@dhunter1133]

Given that he mind-graped her in the first movie, for her to have ANY affection for him - much less fall in love with him - is downright embarrassing.

[@animalcrossingvillager]

@@dhunter1133mind grape is not a thing

[@poppukonfilm]

Forced so hard like whyyy

[@Turtle3000]

What hurts the most about the sequels is the potential that was so daftly wasted.

[@Dolphiny_Link]

100% agreed

[@FazeParticles]

but why was it wasted?

[@deeznuts9886]

Can we swap the word daftly with abhorrently?

[@Turtle3000]

@@FazeParticles I mean you watched those movies, right?

[@olafgurke4699]

@@FazeParticles Why was it wasted, indeed. Isn't that the billion dollar question? Why were Disney Lucasfilm given the equivalent of a Bugatti and decided to absolutely floor it into the wall of a graveyard?

[@0That_Guy0]

They basically had a golden goose. They didn’t want to take the time and prepare the entire plotline. Instead they grabbed the goose and squeezed three scrambled eggs out of it.

[@flava2kprod]

Very well said 🙏

[@KennyCopperfield]

No! No! No! What they did is THEY CUT GOOSE OPEN TO TAKE ALL THE GOLDEN EGGS BECAUSE OF IMPATIENCE!

[@dawnieb.7394]

Uuuuuugggghhhhhh that's one hell of a visual.

[@theyouth2000]

Well put. Lol.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@KennyCopperfield Yeah, then scrambled them complete with the eggshells

[@chrisbrown6952]

I think I would have liked to have heard more of what Adam Driver actually said and not what you said he said

[@Criner05]

That's what I thought this video was gonna be.

[@ArcherJ1]

A lot of SW content creators do this stuff on purpose to omit details and hop on the sequel bandwagon hate for views. I’ve seen it done the worst with the Adam driver interview specifically cutting away good things he said about ep8. I’m not a huge sequel fan either but it’s really annoying when people pull this kind of stunt.

[@darrenmays2036]

I’ve also seen what the actors have actually said and none of them think those movies were good

[@Jeremy-f3s]

Haha yeah you've got to love these pointless narrations where they tell you what's happening while playing the visual of what you wanted to watch in the first place. I guess it's a copyright issue but in which case then this video is entirely pointless cos we could just go find the interview itself couldn't we?

[@OrdinaryMan1999-tn4hh]

@@ArcherJ1 They do it for content. You have to do certain things to keep content going on youtube videos. Things that cause people to comment/discuss. It's part of how creators farm for views and likes.

[@nathantudor5763]

The original arc for kylo would have made Luke’s decision to kill him make so much more sense as well, if Luke knew no matter what anyone did he would irredeemably fall to the dark side the only real course of action would have been to kill him. Not perfect, but still better than what we ended up with.

[@Carlo_ReNews]

But already does make sense the way it is Luke saw a vision of people suffering through him (Him killing Han…) and wanted to do something about it. Just like in empire where he had a vision and rushed to the fast solution

[@nathantudor5763]

@@Carlo_ReNews yet he decided to redeem his father who had already committed numerous atrocities? Doesn’t make sense that he decided to outright kill his nephew unless he knew he’d be irredeemable.

[@Carlo_ReNews]

@@nathantudor5763 He thought about killing him which is in his character. Luke has always been someone who is at first tempted by the easy way, the way of the dark side. I mean even in your example he first tried to kill Vader before realizing that this is wrong. It is the same exact case with Ben

[@nathantudor5763]

@@Carlo_ReNews whilst true, after attempting to kill Vader (which I will remind you he was told he needed to “defeat” by yoda before he would be a Jedi) he didn’t bugger off to some unknown out of the way planet to sulk about it and leave everyone else to deal with the fallout of his actions. That I think is more the issue here than the fact that he acted first on impulse.

[@Carlo_ReNews]

@@nathantudor5763 Okay now we come to an other trade of Luke. I agree him leaving everybody else is a little weird but it comes from the fact that he thinks he caused this and that he is a danger to others because he is a Jedi. Luke would do anything to protect his friend and in this instance he thought him leaving causing the Jedi to die out would be the best option. And it makes sense when we look at how many times the Jedi have messed up and how many times the dark side had rissen again.

[@clockwork3991]

After seeing The Force awakens I always assumed that was where it was going. His character seemed so desperate to dive deeper and deeper into the dark side. I actually found it interesting that he was tempted by the light side, and would then take drastic actions like killing Han to push himself and resist the light. I wish they would have stuck with it.

[@sammco6704]

The thing is, even in force awakens you can tell he is forcing himself down the dark, even when his tendencies don't necisarily reflect that. I think a redemption Ben could have worked if they played with the dicotomy of what he wants versus what his impulses are. What I wish happened is over the course of the trilogy, Rey's impulses push her down the dark while she wants to remain in the light and Ben's impulses push him down the light while he wants to remain in the dark. Eventually, both give in to their impulses and it becomes Sith Rey versus Redeemed Kylo, with Finn caught in the middle attempting to save his friend. I think that would have been sick and would have naturally reflected the arcs both of the characters seemed to be going down from Force Awakens.

[@elan8213]

It’s such a terrible arc to begin with - the creators forced the shift against everything from the original trilogy.

[@calebriver]

as an 11 year old who grew up on star wars when force awakens came out, i was hoping we would get that story. i was in the middle of liking and disliking it but as the trilogy continued i liked them less and less cause they really didnt know what to do with the characters

[@wileymoore3914]

Same

[@Fxrrxt2x]

​@@sammco6704 That would've been amazing. I had hoped they would do something like that at the time.

[@danpage6907]

Most amazing take away from this video: there was "a plan" for the sequel trilogy.

[@pauldraper1736]

then somehow palpatine returned

[@x_.suzaku._x]

TFA is decent, but Rian Johnson killed everything

[@mattr.1887]

😂😂

[@JAnx01]

@@x_.suzaku._x No, it's hot garbage.

[@Cujo5]

@@x_.suzaku._xTFA was the beginning of the mess.

[@pooder53]

The fact that Disney was so impatient after purchasing Star Wars that they had to shit out episode 7 ASAP without SETTING IN STONE a well thought out 3 movie arc that the previous 6 films would resonate with and possibly be built upon. They had so many references to draw from. Whether canon or not. They didn't even pretend to try.

[@abundanceintheson_316]

I know right? I don't even let my kids see them because they are an abominations to everything Star Wars.

[@bburns]

I thought JJ might possibly do a good job, as he had produced Lost, which had some great writers and characters. But... Nope!

[@XIVDock]

Was very telling to me to see them push aside the original EU (what became “Legends”), to reinforce that only Disney licensed material was to be considered EU. And then they basically chose to fumble it all.

[@superpacocaalado7215]

If you have a villain kill Han Solo, do it to the bitter end. That scene meant that there was no coming back from the dark side for him, he killed his father, the same way there would be no coming back for Vader if he killed Luke.

[@thewhyzer]

Vader killed Obi Wan, who might as well have been his father.

[@LecherousLizard]

@@thewhyzer The joke is that Vader didn't, in fact, kill Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan became a Force ghost before Vader's strike reached him. Vader himself was perplexed at this outcome when he inspected Obi-Wan's cloak afterward.

[@thewhyzer]

@@LecherousLizard I thought Vader killed him and the corpse disappeared immediately afterwards.

[@LecherousLizard]

@@thewhyzer Watch that scene again. When Obi-Wan notices Luke safe on the side, he smirks, assumes a position as if he was meditating. Vader swings at him, but Obi-Wan poofs out of existence before Vader has a chance to strike him and his lightsaber only hits the cloak, then perplexed Vader moves the cloak with his boot wondering "What the fuck just happened?" I mean, we see in later movies of the Original Trilogy that lightsabers don't completely vaporize things while leaving clothes OK and considering all the edits Lucas did over the years, this one seems like quite a serious oversight, don't you think?

[@thewhyzer]

@@LecherousLizard I'm not saying the light saber vaporized him, I'm saying he killed Obi Wan, and Obi Wan's body vanished. I bet Vader's body vanished too after he died from Palpatine's lightning and/or the fall.

[@abanana6431]

I think Ben should've been redeemed, while Rey drifts to the dark side. Then in the end it's (Jedi) Finn and Kylo against Sith (or maybe Dark Jedi) Rey, whose power is explosive but unrefined, leading to her destruction. That would've been sick.

[@Dripularstein]

Ahhh, sith rey would've been a good way.

[@FSousA7X]

Oh Finn, the character they forgot was even in the trilogy😂

[@BlobThoughtsMTG]

Can't have a female villain. All women are queens 💅

[@enzoamore8971]

I'd rather it be the other way around, but would still keep Finn as the main character.

[@onlygoodgamesofficial]

All garbage

[@BiggusWeeabus]

Kylo being basically Anti-Vader would have made SO MUCH MORE SENSE

[@maaingan]

Right??? Why was he never taught that Darth Vader actually died *defying the Emperor* as Anakin Skywalker… a Jedi?!? He was trained to be a Jedi by the son of Anakin, and it never came up?!? His hero was a fuckin Jedi, why does he spend 90% of the trilogy trying to emulate the embodiment of the ultimate redemption arc if he’s supposed to be evil?? He should have been tempted by the dark side exactly like his uncle and grandfather were, but ultimately give in to his compassion. Rey should have been the one that comes off as relatable, being a poor nobody with nothing- who is then corrupted by her newfound ability to claim anything she wants as hers using her strength to take from others and cause despair because of her origins as a wounded, lonely, dejected urchin. Both characters would have been not only watchable, but endearing and timeless

[@TheOgAnarchist]

he would have been a much better villain

[@MrChoklad]

@@maaingan that would've been a thrilling direction, made with love and respect for the original story, something disney clearly doesn't have.

[@willyum3920]

I always feel sorry for the cast of this trilogy. Imagine the excitement of being in the new star wars, John Boyega's description was so heartwarming..... and then we got the final product. Sith Rey would be cool, redemption Ben would be cool if they showed why he deserved it in some way unlike in the films, good ben turning fully to the darkside over 3 films would have been awesome. Anything but Rian Johnston trying to make a name for himself by making insane plot, cannon and character decisions ruining the thing we love. Urggg you've got me going again. But to the point, yes I'd love this Ben to Kylo storyline

[@hydratanksamari]

I do feel bad for them, the new faces of a modern legend, ruined to suite the egos of a few, hired by clueless twits who jut wanted to make back the money they paid to Lucas for his IP

[@alexinfinite7142]

Yup. I'm with you

[@knightatyourservice7512]

I personally think the problem was more on Lucasfilm and Disney rather than Rian Johnson. Like not making a concrete plan to stick with and having the director with different perspectives on how Star Wars should be and interpretations of the same story wasn't good planning. And I'm saying it as someone who liked TFA, loved TLJ and felt let down by TROS. Not to mention, Rian was the only writer for this movie. Like of course the story might be rough around the edges at the very least.

[@willyum3920]

​@@knightatyourservice7512 its difficult to respond to that because you said that you enjoyed TFA and TROS. We could discuss what it means to be an objectively good vs subjectively enjoyable or compelling film maybe. I'm on the well worn path of opinion that TFA was basically ANH. It set up some characters I liked, was beautifully shot and had a cliff hanger ending which all would have been good enough if they'd followed it up in the next film. That's where I totally agree with you about Lucasfilm and Disney because if they'd had an overarching plan for the story of this character needs to end up here and this one there, it could have all worked.... HOWEVER; [insert absolute diatribe which you've heard/read a million times before about the inconsistencies in the ongoing plot and the misunderstanding of and disrespect of the characters we loved growing up, the ridiculous plot holes or the "somehow...." various things have happened, the ludicrous macGuffins that don't make logical sense, plot convenient lore retcons, the characters they dropped or didn't go anywhere or had no reason to exist like the Knights of Ren etc etc etc....] I personally think TROS was insulting to the fans love of Star Wars overall as Darth Edge Lord Rian Johnston actively undermined almost everything that had come before on purpose. TLJ was a result of that and Disney's/Lucasfilm's lack of planning as you say, a desperate attempt to undo what RJ did and ultimately just insulting to our intelligence.

[@Soundwave142]

Yeah me too. I do feel bad for John Boyega especially despite his enthusiasm, honest effort and acting skills, he was brought on so that Disney can check off their diversity checklist and then shoved into the background after the first film. Adam Driver did put out his best effort as well and I find him more interesting than Rey. Regarding "Sith Rey," I do not remember what video it was, but the guy said that these "Mary Sue" characters that have it all because they "deserve it" or "superior from the get go," are more akin to villains than heroes.

[@ShadowAkatora]

"Some things were changed when Rian Johnson was brought onboard" That's the f*cking understatement of the century.

[@ReclaimerTyphoon]

Yes, I would have like for the trilogy to not have been fragmented and passed back and forth like a child with divorced parents.

[@stormshot119]

Kylo Ren was legitimately the only character to have some sort of character development in the sequels. Rey was already the *perfect* character and everyone else was sidelined or flanderized

[@bombomos]

Rey was already the most boring character

[@notjohncena6492]

Then there are actual "fans" who think any of the sequels are top 5 star war movies

[@BaldianOfIbelin]

They bastardized Finn by ruining his sacrifice and making him the butt of the joke in episode 8 that's what made me give up on the sequels

[@Sivrn-Val]

​@@notjohncena6492We don't talk about those creatures.

[@xrstevenson]

And that's why they say he carried the trilogy. He didn't really, they just fucked up everybody else, Finn carried TFA so hard until Rey picked up the lightsaber, you can totally see the tone shifted from that point onward

[@ThomatoSauce]

ANYTHING would’ve been better than what we ended up getting.

[@LecherousLizard]

Including The Force Awakens itself.

[@chaosgyro]

I don't know...the prequels exist

[@WillyYalad-ep7gv]

​@@chaosgyroDude, don't you dare to compare the prequels (that yeah, have their flaws, but aren't a dogshit) with the absolutly disaster, disrespecfuly and abominable, sequels

[@chaosgyro]

@WillyYalad-ep7gv The sequels can be watched as a sci-fi action-comedy series that isn't...too bad. Just watch the pretty colors and smile at the attempted levity. The prequels aren't even watchable movies. Also, Vader was destroyed far worse by George Lucas than a hundred Rian Johnsons could manage to do to Luke.

[@WillyYalad-ep7gv]

@@chaosgyro Dude, you can't be serious, the only thing that makes the prequels uncomfortable is the romance between Padmé and Anakin, the boring stuff from the first prequel of the movies and Jar Jar. The prequels left the franchise at such a high level that this allowed the first Disney Star Wars sequel to be a bomb in the good sense of the word. I can respect you like the sequels the way you do, or that you like it without a particular reason, but dude, you can't just take to the ground the good things and what the prequels meant and mean today

I actually think his struggle between light and dark side was the best aspect of the trilogy. Gave him so much character.

[@benmorgan9748]

That's like 50% of Star Wars' characters though. Pretty boring imo

[@colin857]

Someone else made a good point too that it also made Luke's Character worse...if what he saw ended up being true, then it justify his feeling to kill him...instead he just made Kylo who he becamd

[@Tink2k]

Visions are tricky things. Kylo did kill Han. Maybe Luke saw other things in the vision that either we didn't see onscreen or Rey's influence (after her mind was opened to the Force) changed Kylo / Ben's future@@colin857

[@codythefriendlyskunkboy1780]

@@benmorgan9748 At least he was actually a character tho. Rey is some random nobody and Finn..idk he was the main character for like most of Force Awakens then became a side character (haven't watched those movies in years)

[@mtpstv94]

What character. All the characters were a joke. Irredeemable to what they did to Star Wars in every way.

[@cloudmangalm03]

In retrospect, the sequels feel a lot like a whole fanfic circling around Rei.

[@nateeverett1646]

I always wanted Ben to go to the light side and Ray to go to the dark and Ben bring her back, at the cost of his own life, mirroring Luke and Anakin. When episode 7 came out, I also really wanted it to have been Han that ignited Kylo’s lightsaber, sacrificing himself so his son wouldn’t cross that line and go full dark side. Snoke would congratulate him for killing Han and we’d watch Kylo lie and struggle with the fact he DIDN’T kill his dad, and that sacrifice would redeem him, like a reverse of Darth Vader and Luke. Could have been so much better.

[@thehigherman9918]

I really like that. If only that was what we got :(

[@abundanceintheson_316]

I like those Ideas....so much better than what we actually got

[@starwarsjoey228]

sith rey would be so cool, imagine if rey went proper evil palpatine mode. maybe palpatine would be like hehe kill me, not fully expecting her to kill him, but she just straight up rushes him with so much raw power he isn't expecting it, then she goes evil, and has to fight her old friends

[@kecksbelit3300]

that would suck rly hard to be honest. Rey would still be a mary sue and now the most powerful beeing dies even easier. The only reason he wanted her to kill him was so he could transfer his essence into her anyway.

[@starwarsjoey228]

@@kecksbelit3300 yeah but the dark side makes u unlock Ur powers and really quickly, like savage, so it would be ok for teynto be Mary sue if we used dark side. Plus I do feel bad for palpatine, maybe if it was snoke instead. Tbf palpatine ried even easier in rotj

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

It seemed more like resurrecting Palpatine was a rushed decision, especially since all they had to go with was; "Palpatine's back somehow" and didn't even try to explain it. Almost all the concept art I've seen with Sith Rey seemed better than what we got in Episode IX, but her brief "turn" towards the Dark Side seemed more like a means to appeal to fans and only made it worse than the opening of VIII with the weird bombing run

[@kecksbelit3300]

@@starwarsjoey228 it's not cause he used the dark side it's cause he got talsins magic

[@starwarsjoey228]

@@kecksbelit3300 I think both, look at nightfall ani

[@Pingthescribe]

Based on what he's said, I do see they were trying to go that way in hindsight. Episode 9 was clearly rushed and should have taken more time, I always felt like I was watching a draft rather than a final copy.

[@alduintheanti-dragonborn]

Disney wanted their holiday season release.

[@Pingthescribe]

@@alduintheanti-dragonborn Another thing that someone pointed out to me is that each movie was an apology for the last instead of doing it's own thing. People didn't like the prequels? Let's make TFA like Ep IV! It's too same-y? Let's shake things up! People don't like that? Let's play it safe! They were too concerned with being people pleasers and seemed to think they could avoid SW fan's famously unrealistic standards.

[@LecherousLizard]

@@Pingthescribe TFA was literally a cheap ANH knock-off with Disney crossing their fingers hoping nobody will notice. At least prequels did their own thing, even if they sure could've ended up being more polished, but TFA not only wasn't anyhow inventive, it was downright insulting to watch.

[@zoyadulzura7490]

@@LecherousLizard The similarities to ANH bugged me, but after seeing TFA, I was still hopeful for what would come after. Then TLJ came, and I still can't bring myself to watch TRoS. TLJ dashed all my hopes for the trilogy. It felt like someone stamping all over Star Wars. I feel bad for many of the people involved (including the actors, who have caught needless blame), who were bringing their A-game but still had to essentially follow the orders of those in control.

[@Warkingist]

Honestly the problem with the whole sequel trilogy was they had no direct path they wanted to follow it was all over the place with no real direction and they just went with whatever they thought would be good without actually reading it out loud to themselves to see how bad it actually was.

[@zoyadulzura7490]

That's what happens when money is the ultimate goal vs. fulfilling a vision, like George Lucas had done with the (flawed but loveable) prequels.

[@citoyen_anthony]

Fans : You're going down a path I can't follow. You are breaking my heart. 😢 Disney : George Lucas and KZbinrs have already turned against me, don't you turned against me !!! 😡

[@alpaga4820]

I don't think it's ever a good idea to go into a trilogy without knowing clearly where the story is going, and it's an even stupider idea to do whatever the fuck they did here.

[@alfonzredeker6601]

I think the dumbest decision they made for him was to have him die at the end. I think it would have been cool to have Ben ultimately reject joining Rey and the Jedi, instead having him go off and wander the galaxy trying to atone for his sins and using his powers to root out the corruption that flourished under the first order. Even if Adam didn't return as Ben, they could have made interesting and compelling stories for his character after the events

[@Nanu07iscool]

I think this would have been s weirder end for his character in the movie. You‘d have to give a reason for him doing so, it just doesn’t feel satisfying. I mean his death isn’t satisfying either, but still finishes his arc and storyline

[@ammar675]

Or maybe do a twist and have him be the good guy and kill Rey who is possessed by Palpatine

[@megnetic21]

I think the redemption was the best idea but should have been executed better/Rey falling to the dark side which ends up making him realize his own mistakes and he has to form an uneasy alliance with Finn and Poe to bring her back. That dynamic would have set up great SW style banter potential between Poe, Finn and Ben as well.

[@miles7224]

I think keeping Ben as evil would've also worked really well. We often see Jedi be tempted by the dark side, but very rarely do we see a Sith tempted by the light (at least in main canon). All we'd need then is for Rey to keep the Palpatine name and stick to the messaging throughout the film that your ancestry doesn't matter.

[@jaminallen3119]

Ooh yeah I could see that being really good! You should've given them the plot outline. Would've been far better 👌

[@trueandika]

Redemption was a terrible idea. Laughable. And it was executed according so.

[@Commander23c]

Leave the quips out of it, please. We need more Star Wars like Andor…

[@serteshsardrakal2272]

I think I heard a similar script somewhere before? I think it was a game called kotor with a guy called revan.

[@Zilla1954]

I always got the feeling this is where Kylo's character was written to go because it felt like there was this gap of a true villain that Kylo was meant to fill by the third movie. I really thought that Kylo was going to go full Vader (or worse) by the third film, and I guess I was right according to the original intent, but wrong about what actually ended up happening.

[@hunterkiller1440]

It'd be more interesting if Luke was the one who wants to redeem Kylo Ren while Rey believes he is irredeemable.

[@Kryto_Gaming]

Interesting, that would have fit with Luke's established character too. When they were doing the flashbacks in the 2nd movie, I thought Luke would have had the opposite issue with Kylo, that he was going to keep believing in him just like he did with Vader, but that backfired on him and got his new temple killed. That would have made WAY more sense then Luke randomly having doubts about a still innocent friend and literal family member after seeing the mass genocider that was Vader redeemed.

[@WakenAngels]

George Lucas's sequel idea was better. A Sith lord seizing control of the power vacuum after the Empire falls to unite the crime syndicates while Luke tries to rebuild the Jedi and Leia tries to rebuild the Rebellion. I don't like the idea of using Darth Maul or Darth Talon but otherwise the idea was brilliant. Instead Disney just repeated the OT and made a worse version of it. Doing a subversion of that could have worked but Rian Johnson ruined the whole thing. I saw TLJ twice and it's the only movie I wanted to walk out of both times. Star Wars is dead.

[@liamwilson7549]

Anyone attacking him for killing Han Solo needs to stop. The man is just an actor, he isn’t the one who makes the script.

[@cracklasco]

It would’ve been more tragic story wise. The love of his parents and family wouldn’t have been enough to save him. Would’ve been great to se them break that trope of a family member or friend becoming good again over the love of their friends and family.

[@AlwayzFresh]

This is the least of the things making Disney look like a joke, plus all of this was well known before today by anyone paying attention. Anyone who understands storytelling knows the two directors where directing against each other. They literally made a bi-polar franchise.

[@cuddlecakes7153]

"bi polar franchise" lmao

[@LecherousLizard]

The worst Rian Johnson was, was being the final nail in the coffin. A symptom, not a problem. If you _actually_ paid attention, you'd realize from the very first minutes of TFA (personally it took me 10 minutes) that the sequel trilogy would be a disappointment and you should only take bets how bad of a disappointment it'd be.

[@citizenvulpes4562]

@tacidian7573 please don't, I don't want my mental illness to be associated with this mess, thank you.

[@thatzachguy76]

Kylo was always played too emotional and unhinged like an edgy teen not getting their way. I was never worried when he showed up on screen nor was I intimidated by anything you did, cut to his "opposite" Vader and every time he shows up you feel fear because you know he is in control and ruthless.

[@jamiekay4210]

That scene where he threw a tantrum and slashed those computers up in TFA made me roll my eyes. Not even Anakin, with all his brooding and sulking throughout the Prequels, acted out like a petulant child the way Kylo did. Anakin had his verbal jousts with the other Jedi sure, but he never pulled out his lightsaber and started hacking up things in the Jedi Temple like a brat when he was denied the rank of Master. The two characters are night and day, but not in the way Disney intended. One was well written with a complex emotional backstory that would inform his eventual transformation into Darth Vader, and the other was a Vader wannabe who acted like he was written by an angsty teen writing a SW fanfic.

[@thatzachguy76]

@@jamiekay4210 which unfortunately he seems to have been written by just such a person lol Disney writers are either edgy wannabes or pacifist "everyones opinion has weight and importance no matter what" types, theres really no inbetween and it shows in their writing and "story boarding" if you can call it that lol

[@stephaniemertz2881]

I just would have appreciated Disney not taking a massive dump on the star wars franchise altogether. 🤷‍♀️

[@w00master]

The truth is that Star Wars has been sh*t since the prequels. The main issue is that they cannot break from the Skywalker saga which at this point has nothing new to say.

[@DrakeBarrow]

That was my original take when I saw TFA. It felt like a good angle to go with - the idea that he didn't WANT to be saved. Let people try to talk him down, try to bring him back, and every time he swats their offer aside. Would it have sucked that Han & Leia's only kid became a monster? Yes, it would've. But at least the story would've been interesting and more original. (Actually, that sums up a lot of arguments about the Sequel Trilogy. Almost any direction would've been better than no direction, and that's what we got.)

[@3Rayfire]

In the EU they had three kids, and only one fell to the Dark Side.

[@LecherousLizard]

My original take when I saw TFA was that I wanted to get a refund. The worst part about that is that I pirated the movie. That's how awful it was. 10 minutes in I expected it to go nowhere and, oh, boy, if I wasn't proven right. And later I learned the next two movies managed to be even worse, ha!

[@Rightround0846]

Adam playing an absolute sadistic evil character sounds so awesome. They wasted Adam as an actor it's sad..

[@jokester3076]

Ben Solo’s redemption was the one thing they did right in the rise of skywalker

[@javierlopez9789]

And then they ruined it by killing him

[@lmeza1983]

Redemption from what? he had 0 character development both he and Rey feel very cheap force users and their intentions kinda irrelevant.

[@johnwalker1058]

Petition for someone to just simply redo the entire sequel trilogy and act like the original sequels never happened. 👇

[@funkmasteryoda8323]

Talking about a dumb decision while making a dumb decision to not let us hear what he said is the chefs kiss

[@waterierStone]

I think the biggest problem was when they made snoke a nothing villain. I think it would have made more sense if he was a robot being controlled by some cultists who were trying to resurrect palpatine. Maybe they needed some a palpatine's dna to finish the cloning process, and that's why they needed rey to go to exogul. There's so many things wrong with 8 & 9 that I think it's pointless in trying to single them out.

[@Soundwave142]

Yeah, it was like a bag of hot air. They could have made him Palpatine that did not fully form until the last film.

[@Azure_Fire]

If I was writing it, I would have made him a former apprentice of Darth Plagius who was ousted by Palpatine. He's all scarred from the battle to two would have had to become Plagius's true apprentice.

[@rafikshaheed4271]

Star Wars Ep VIII messed everything up by killing Snoke. If he survived, he could have had a significant presence in the last film, and part of Palpatine's will (maybe a Sith cultist, who sought out to complete Palpatine's life work while trying to transfer Sidious's consciousness into his body, thereby sacrificing his life so that the Dark Lord could live).

[@TheRealDarkSide830]

I actually think the concept of Snoke being a decoy was interesting, just poorly executed.

[@ProjSHiNKiROU]

I would rather see Kylo Ren redeemed than falling into the deep end. However, I would rather have Duel of the Fates for Episode 9 and my ideal Episode 9 would be both versions merged together (Final battle on Coruscant and rewritten Rey vs. Kylo Ren arc).

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

At least that sound better than what we got, but almost half of Episodes VIII and IX go from semi-canon to "WTF just happened?" or "how is that even logical in-universe?" as if the screenwriters didn't even know the basics of the franchise

[@LecherousLizard]

I'd rather have for the protagonist to have an actual personality and show some semblance of growth, instead of having a revelation she's perfect at everything she do.

[@Tw1s7]

I think the redemption arc worked only because Rey's character was so frustrating to experience, but if done right, I could see how the original vision could be better, but from what we had, Kylo Ren's story was the best out of all of the Sequels.

[@Macken-n9l]

Adam Driver was such a wasted actor for these movies. He’s not a bad actor, his talent was just wasted. As were so many of the other actors and actresses. Although, I really wish actors and actresses would realize when a movie is bad and admit it. Rather than siding with Disney and saying the fans are wrong to hate a film. Because that is a giant middle finger to fans and basically says to us “You can’t hate it. If you do, you’re a bad person.”

[@eggfinallap]

Luke Skywalker was originally meant to turn evil and replace Darth Vader in episode 6. But George couldn't even stick to the plan. What an incompetent buffoon.

[@litjellyfish]

For me it’s clear that ep 9 was a mess. Where do we have Kylo at the end of Ep8. He reached out to Rey maybe the only one he felt connected to that understood him a bit. And also maybe he even had som romantic feelings for here. He was both friendzoned. Friend denied and professionally denied form her. He fails in his fight with Luke. He gets pinched about the killing of his father. He is the most powerful man in the galaxy. And all gates him. Both the enemy and his own people. He is to most lonely and scared person in the galaxy. What would such a man / dictator do. Of course try to increase his power over the galaxy. And over himself mentally / force. And of course try to kill off anyone who hurt him. And all this. Thrown away. People complain that snoke was thrown away. For me he was not. Smoke was killed so Kylo could emerge. But then they really wasted him.

[@bobafett4265]

You're not wrong there, it could've been a great moment to actually do something greater with Kylo but they pissed that away like Disney did with the Sequel Trilogy as a whole, it had potential starting out, but when episode 8 hit, there was no way they were going to fix it from there.

[@litjellyfish]

@@bobafett4265 I actually is ok with parts of EP8. Ok it was a mess but not all bad. Pure personally I edited it down over 30 minutes. Removed over silly non fitting jokes. Improved the pacing (the whole casino thing went totally out) Rose do not exist in this version. Leia do not fly etc. But Luke still drinks Blue milk. Nothing wrong with blue Milk. (Many complain it’s just look gross and should evoke gross feeling - maybe. But narrative wise it’s actually there to show what life Luke lives there. He also drinks it more gross to provoke Rey. Like ok I’ll show you stuff but I really don’t care or trust you or only what you can tolerate. Basically a screening test.

[@elcarlxd4486]

​@@litjellyfishi hated the whole casino side story except phasma's death

[@litjellyfish]

@@elcarlxd4486 yup me too that is why I removed it. And it affected so little in general so for me it proves it had nothing really to do in the movie. If a narrative section of over 15 minutes is so easy to take out without affecting other parts then for me it should be taken out

[@SWTobito0702]

I honestly feel so vindicated in my feelings of both TLJ and TROS, hearing this. One of the biggest aspects of TLJ that I genuinely love to this day is its decision to make Kylo usurp Snoke and take the role of Supreme Leader. I had such high hopes that Kylo's arc would be like a fun house mirroring of Luke's. Instead of struggling with the dark side and choosing the light, Kylo struggles with the pull of the light and delves into darkness. And I was so beyond disappointed when TROS gave him another generic light side redemption. Now, knowing that Kylo remaining evil was the original plan and his redemption was just thrown in when they came around to TROS, makes me feel quite legitimized in my feelings.

[@LecherousLizard]

What are your feelings about TFA then? Because, personally, after watching TFA I was absolutely done with the Sequel Trilogy... and from the looks of it, it'd appear I was 110% right in my assessment.

[@DrakeBrunette]

I had several different theories for Kylo... Redemption Arc, Reverse Vader and (my personal favorite) Morally Grey Double Agent who only did what he did to get close to Snoke in order to assassinate him... Either way, I think any of them can work. They just needed a general outline to start with and then stick to it with a team of writers who all know and love Star Wars. Perhaps having George Lucas as a semi regular consultant. Same thing with Reys lineage. Is she descended from a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi, Palpatine, Yoda (lol), New Character? Just have a plan about it!!!!

[@x_.suzaku._x]

I'm tired about redemption arcs, there is a lot in the Star Wars lore

[@oscardylan99864]

This trilogy is a perfect example of why you need to make a plan and stick to it.

[@MC-24]

Driver is an awesome actor but it didn’t matter what story they wrote, he just didn’t look the part. He takes off the mask and you’re like: Oh, he’s a dopey college kid flunking away his legacy scholarship and crumbling under an angsty teenage existential crisis. You can picture him laying in bed having a kicking fit with emo playing thru his headphones.

[@ShadowReaper-pu2hx]

I thought Kyle Ren was a girl when he first took his mask off lmao.

[@RayOfTruth]

Redeemed Ben Solo was one of the best things in TROS, it was a good change.

[@xSharpW]

Ben deserved his redemption...Finn deserved to be a Jedi, and Rey could've been an interesting twist character who should've started turning to the dark side after her whole thing with the mirrors in episode 8...we only got like, 1/3 of those things and it wasn't done super well unfortunately but YK it's over now. We lost.

[@lucashampton6269]

Here's how I would have handled Rise of Skywalker. We open with Luke waking up. He's not on Ach-To. His cloak is missing. The room he's in hums with the Force. Two Aang-Tii monks approach and explain that they were consulting their artifacts when a vision of the future came to them. The vision was unclear save for one thing: Luke needed to see the vision too. He sees it, they teach him to teleport with the Force, and he goes on his mission. We learn that Rey is not a Palpatine, but is actually a Solo. She was abducted very young to be used as a host for Darth Talon (who here has been using essence transfer to prolong her life from her time in the Old Republic. She was able to find force sensitives too strong to possess but also could be made into apprentices) so she can lead a resurgent "lost tribe" of Sith to domination. The rescue attempt was botched to hell and back and Rey was spirited away by the lost tribe. In the pursuit, Han tried to disable the ship but he wasnt thinking clearly because it was his daughter on the line. He instead causes the ship to crash on Jakku and explode soon after. This would be the catalyst for Han and Leia separating. Rey obviously lived in an escape pod with one of the Sith. But, the Sith is badly hurt and is picked off by raiders. Rey is found by Unkar and so on. Ben is internally conflicted over killing his father and having let his hated Uncle get the better of him without even being there. The brief Force contact he had with his mother, his mind meld with Rey, he was feeling all sorts of messed up. Ben learns of the lost Sith and their plan when encounter each other in searching for Sith artifacts from the Banite order. He decides to go all in with the lost Sith to protect his newly rediscovered sister. Becoming Darth Caedus to position himself to best keep her safe. Luke arrives to team up with Rey as they lead the newly formed Galactic Alliance (formed in the ashes of the New Republic destruction on Hosnian Prime) forces against the lost Sith and the First Order. Luke and Rey dispatch a few Sith then duel Ben together. When he's sure the Sith and First Order are done for, Ben relents and lets himself be killed. Luke and Rey start work on a new Jedi Order with new ideas, not just a rerun of the old one. It ends with Anakin's force ghost sitting next to Luke as they overlook a new Jedi temple in construction. They're joined by Obi-Wan and Yoda and a final shot of them watching a group of Jedi in training below. Among them, Leia trades blows in sparring with a barabel Jedi.

[@JoeTheCrusader]

This would have been an awesome movie!

[@bobafett4265]

This sounds fantastic and way better than "current" Dosney could make on a good day.

[@LordHypnos4]

Spend 5 billion on an IP, have no plan, end up with a joke of a trilogy and a series of shows in shambles, Disney 101

[@taristazin2073]

Anything Disney touches, it destroys. I'm 52 years old and this is not the Disney I grew up with. So very sad.

[@Wasattsi]

Mmmmmmmmm. Nah, Kylo Ren’s arc was one of the only things I liked about the Sequels. Keeping him evil probably would’ve lessened how much I like him.

[@chewy99.]

No I’m very glad they didn’t do that. Ben should be redeemed.

[@CameronM1138]

Redeeming Ben was actually one of the few things I still like about Rise of Skywalker. The way it was handled was pretty bad, but I'm still glad they went in that direction.

[@WheyanQuix]

I had never heard of Kyle Ren being set to be an anti-Vader. I mean obviously the reflection is there in plain sight, but like taking it a step further to not just a Vader-ish start but taking the evil as his own and eliminating his own master to take over the empire. Completing the “rule of two” between the Sith. That would have been EPIC to see especially if they really dove into his hunger for power and made himself part mechanical to give him more of the physical strength/intimidating presence that Vader had!

[@shibumi8]

I’m sad he didn’t get chance to act out what was originally planned. Sounds like he was stoked to give it his all.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

More justification to need an official animated project based on Duel of the Fates. It won't be perfect, but if it means doing the post-Crisis treatment for the Star Wars Alt-universe... and besides, animation and voice acting need more love than oversaturated live action.

[@pyrosiumofficial]

It's funny because, as far as I'm aware, Kylo Ren was carrying this trilogy on his back. And imo, his redemption was perfect. THOUGH, his death was a major cop out.

[@motor4X4kombat]

Feeling sad because you cause the death from your already dead mother dosn't put you at the same level of zuko.

[@Dragonrider1227]

I had a feeling that was the original intention of the arch. Should’ve kept it. Likely to pander to his sudden huge fandom. They should’ve just let J.J direct the whole trilogy. It still would’ve had issues but it probably would’ve get more coherent at least

[@LecherousLizard]

Would I want to see the original direction? No, because the original direction from the very beginning of the movie was unimaginative and, quite frankly, plain awful. Like, it didn't take me 10 minutes to feel as my intelligence was being insulted. And you're telling me the first movie was intended to work out this way? Get outta here.

[@julianmartinez3048]

Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac look like two complete idiots in those movies. You see them in movies they've done afterwards and they are awesome actors. Even Daisy Ridley could be a great actress, but she's vanished after these movies. She got a lot of hate, but it's not fair to blame an actor if the movie sucks... most of the time.

[@14bface]

Disney has made themselves look like a joke for awhile now.

[@RADukura]

- Took Anakin’s story - Twist it and slap a female protagonist - “Somehow, Palpatine returned” - Profit from woke and stans

[@77Pictures]

Despite the mess of the sequels, I do think if Kylo has not been redeemed it would have been even worse. The idea that after all Anakin went through, his lineage would just go bad with no real reason behind it, is pretty depressing.

[@TransFreezer]

The fact that the actors themselves are disappointed really shows how bad disney messed up

[@TheFluffyDuck]

The fact Disney nuked the ENTIRE 30 year accumulation of George Lucas approved expanded universe stories to replace it with the garbage that we got, only to have Kathleen Kennedy say “there was no material” pisses me off in a deep way. I spent a good part of my childhood and adolescence in that forcibly retired universe.

[@CloneScavengerVulpin8389]

I want to see more of adam driver.

[@Will_U_Read_4_U]

Yes please 1:03

[@Legocatshouse]

Kylo dying from exhaustion was really stupid.. Luke dying from exhaustion was really stupid. The prequal content showed jedi's fighting year long wars, and becoming master level warriors. How did these two die?

[@MiketheratguyMultimedia]

Disney had one chance - ONE - to create a Star Wars sequel trilogy. They blew it, and blew it hard. We lost that chance, it literally cannot ever happen again. Half the original cast is dead, the other half is disillusioned, and even much of the young cast has dismissed what Disney did. Thanks Kathleen, Abrams and Johnson.

[@lidge1994]

The fact that anyone thought "oh, suddenly he's good and he's a new kinda super power couple and he's in love with the same girl he tortured and she's in love with him too, and somehow they can use the force to heal" was a good idea tells you the level of maturity these writers have. It's the same as that annoying kid who has an anti-shield destroying beam shield when you were a kid. They just have to be right and win, no matter what.

[@Erlaxis]

The fact that there was no unified vision for what the story should be in the entire trilogy was a gigantic failure.

[@Nocturniss]

Every time I feel like Disney lets me down, they always find a way to drag the bar lower...🤦‍♂

[@alexG106]

"Irredeemable villain" when they were originally good, runs so counter to StarWars that I'm stunned that Disney actually didn't go in that direction.

[@joshuagoldstein8116]

What Disney really would have liked is if all of the characters turned trans at the end and spoke about empire privilege while ending their sentences with upspeak, and calling one another, "suh brave, suh brave."

[@Mcnutty924]

This is what happens when you treat a trilogy like 3 separate movies instead of one continuous story.

[@abe_froman8360]

It's all Rian Johnson's fault. He kneecapped every mystery plot JJ Abrams came up with, without developing anything new of his own. By the end of The Last Jedi there is ZERO story momentum going into the final film.

[@hitsurei]

How about both of them becoming sith master and apprentice, making them the first lover sith lord duo, and whoever comes next will stop them. Or if they didn't kill Luke, he's going to have a new team to do it. It's just so infuriating that despite hundreds of great ideas, they've chosen the shit ideas.

[@conmanay4563]

Adam Driver is such an amazing actor, he was wasted on the trilogy. Honestly I would have had him be sadistic for the most part, just a slight hint of change at the end of a second. Then the third movie, Rey slips to the darkside, while he slips more to the light. Ultimately, seeing someone giving in to rage and evil ultimately causes him to redeem himself while Rey fully succumbs. Making parallels to Vader’s story but still making it different with Kylo redeeming himself but failing to redeem Rey

[@vike7711]

Like has been already said-there was no plan for a trilogy,it just produced one mess after another,filled with dumb plotholes and mystery boxes.The “Somehow Palpatine returned” being the absolute zenith of bullshit…..What could’ve been is the worst part-the chance to see the main three characters back on screen together again gone for good.

[@Noneyabuiness]

They didn’t make him “evil” they made him a spoiled brat with temper tantrums

[@raphaelrobles8104]

I think they shouldn’t have written these movies the way they did. Having your interns eat the script of A New Hope and subsequently forcing them to vomit it back up and then going off of that for one movie, and taking their stool samples to finish out the last two, was never going to work out well.

[@nexus1g]

I'd heard that there was talk about Kylo and Rey swapping roles throughout the trilogy, and that would have been amazing. Especially with the idea of the dyad--sort of like the Son and Daughter in Mortis.

[@nccamsc]

Disney wanted a very happy ending, they dumb it down to sell more to children.

[@jamesgeorge7579]

The first movie had him kill his father Han Solo, pushing him further to the Dark Side. He had doubts and was made more sympathetic in the next movie, but it ended with him killing Snoke and taking his place in true Sith lord fashion, and further built up the rivalry between him and Rey. The only thing that prevented him from being the villain in the third movie is that Palpatine "somehow returned." The Rise of Skywalker rejecting all the previous plot threads in favor of a last minute reboot not only makes TRoS terrible, but ruins the two movies that came before it as well, making them pointless.

[@ilovetweek000]

If they truly wanted to redeem Ben, it would've been better if Rey ended up embracing her lineage as Palpatine's granddaughter and having to fight Ben, that would've been different at least.

[@PurpleBox89]

"Outlines are a waste of time. If you give your characters free will, they will grow in ways you never anticipated, and they will take the story places you could not have predicted, raising themes you might or might not have intended to explore."

[@bradavon]

I would like to have heard Adam Driver speak and not someone mute him and speak over it, personally.

[@Perfidious_Hollow]

The second he took his helmet off every ounce of intimidation his character had went right out the window. That was why Vader was such a great villain.

[@defiantmopar]

I honestly doubt that JJ had any sort of plan for story or character development. He never does

[@tylerelli6565]

RIP Carrie Fisher, her passing away was symbolic of the Star Wars franchise.

[@calebecker1998]

If adams character became like vader in his downfall though, we never would have gotten the solid gold line of "somehow, palpatine returned."

[@Infinite.Worldz]

Dude killed his dad. Worst decision ever... besides not have the 3 OGs on screen together.

[@WorthlessDeadEnd]

There was no trilogy. It was an anti-trilogy. Everything that George Lucas had devoted his whole life to, Disney tore down and marketed it as their trilogy. Then, Disney had the audacity to declare that everything that happened before they bought LucasArts was not Canon.

[@scarymoe4113]

Biggest trilogy flop ever. Unless they were going for each film being progressively worse than the previous then they did a good job.

[@RoxasXIII]

Last Jedi ended with him choosing the dark side. It was only in episode 9 when they lost the plot and made it about fan service and not about plot or character development. In the end episode 9 ended up pissing off everyone.