This old Ford Put me through the Ringer!

Old Ford got the best of me but I didn't give up. All problems have an answer. Where would you have went with this issue?
#picoscope #pico #snapon #ford #diagnostictroublecode

[@christophermurphy943]

I was a service tech on construction equipment for 35 years and I lost track of how many times the OEM troubleshooting charts told you to replace a module that wasn’t bad. Your integrity, humility, and diagnosis skills are rock solid.

[@frozenstang3868]

My rule is to ask myself . Before i buy a module i always ask myself what am i going to do if the module doesnt fix it , what would my next move be. Without a donor you can spend money and go no where. This guy is a great diagnostician and i have learned so very much watching him.

[@djosbun]

Obviously this happens to all of us occasionally, Jake. You figured it out and got the vehicle running properly, so that’s all that really matters. Every day is a learning experience so keep a smile on your face and keep kicking butt, brother.

[@jeremyah78]

Gotta be good to be lucky bro! Great case study!! As far as billing goes, in my opinion, there is no way you should eat that! Everybody DOES put a PCM in this! And this truck goes to the bone yard without you! The only mistake you’re making, again, in my opinion, is guaranteeing anything on a cobbled up old crate! Speaks to your integrity though man! Hats off to ya!

[@davidmoss9471]

Sometimes the learning experience is worth more to you than the invoice amount, good job

[@kylewilhelm9397]

Our industry needs more techs like you that are honest and dedicated

[@arthurfricchione8119]

Jake I’ve been following your videos for some time and I just put in a friends request. I’m retired Aircraft mechanic mostly military but I’m taking quite a few automotive electronics/electrical courses just to stay current on today’s vehicles. Your channel is presented in a clear and informative way. Plus I’m learning because I get to purchase all the great testing equipment and meet all the outstanding technicians like yourself. I hope you accept my request. Just trying to stay with the best. Thank you. Artie 👍. Jake nice to see you stay true to your principles. Honesty will only put trust back into the industry 👍

[@vickenkaragozian2041]

Wel all have done it because of lack of information. You did a great job and you were smart enough to find the problem and share it with us. Thank you Jake & have a great weekend.

[@8power0]

THIS IS THE REAL WORLD ,,, IN THE END THE VEHICLE IS FIXED AFTER MANY SHOPS AND A LOT OF TIME,, I HOPE YOUR CUSTOMER IS APPRECIATIVE OF YOUR DEDICATION ............ THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND EFFORT GREAT WORK 🙏🙏🙏👍👍👍

[@craiggoodwin9704]

Jake, so glad you persevered on this one. I like you comment that "scopes don't lie!" I appreciate the time you spent explaining how your scope was hooked up and how you protected in from high voltage inputs. Hoping you have a great week in the end. Thanks for Sharing!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Fantastic case study Jake! Even though you had to eat some hours, cases like these are priceless education and give you the most bang for your buck in learning 🙂 As a bonus all your viewers get the shared education too! 👍

[@jackiemay9471]

@@autodiagyt gods in the house

[@ablackformula]

I was expecting to see those transmission speed sensors were 2 wire sensors, and I was thinking about alternator ripple being a problem. Either way, I learned a lesson on one more thing to check before calling a bad pcm! So far we're up load testing powers and grounds, ensuring 5v reference integrity, ensuring communication available, and now getting a scope capture of powers and grounds with engine running if possible. Thanks for taking your time to do the voiceover, I've definitely learned from this video!

[@dankinesis]

fair play for being so honest. so many other channels i see dont show this side of it and show them being perfect. We're human and cannot be right 1st time all the time because damn cars do weird things!. Im a tech myself and i know what its like having head scratchers where the test step manufacturer gives do not work and that leaves you thinking outside the box. and chasing your tails. thanks for sharing also great channel!

[@christopherbaker8774]

The sound quality is perfectly acceptable and, as always, your video is excellent 👍

[@carmo9693]

Hind sight is 2020 and I will remember your grief who would have thought of that. I know I will never run into that scenario ever but one never knows. Great work.

[@stephenswanson3603]

Hey Jake. I'm a Master mechanic in Michigan, I've lost track of how many flow charts have pointed to unnecessary pcm replacement! Especially Asian charts that state "replace with known good pcm" I always tell the young guys at work, you gotta think outside the box! Good find, great video .

[@danielkearns3600]

Thanks so much for your videos. I have been in this field for 40 years and watching this has changed my diag. procedures before condemning a module or computer. First check for RF from alternator and secondary ignition feed back. To always check for clean power. I have always done a loaded voltage and ground test and from prior video I now do drop test under loaded test when issue takes place. This probably saved me thousands and weeks and months time in next 5 years. I have always been the go to shop when others couldn't fix it with parts. I would always tell shop or customer put oem parts back on before dropping off because of the junk aftermarket and counterfeit parts people buy online that cause me to waste countless hours and days diagnosing these bad parts when almost 100% of the time it is a resistance issue within wiring by break or fretting or green crusty from moisture from inside vehicles. I find vehicles with sunroofs are more suitable to corrosion because of the high humidity levels inside the car. When I see a car with sweating on the inside of the windows it is nearly always moisture corrosion. This video has lead me to save more time and use more critical thinking to process the possibilities even to a higher degree. Thanks

[@rookiediagnosticsandrepair5956]

Crazy, 2 cars with same problem at the same time. Well done!

[@scottschantz2553]

Awesome job Jake! Anyone that would be critical of your steps to finding this problem has never worked in this industry or is just ignorant to situations like this one. You're right, even a dealership following their own flow charts would have replaced and reprogrammed the PCM. I know I would've. A lot of what we know is based on prior experience and the rest is based on trial and error. When we have know other logical solutions, what do we do? We replace a suspect part. By replacing the PCM and seeing your problem didn't go away, you didn't just quit, you pursued and used your experience to know something was bringing down the module. The voice over on this video was great too. You explained well and kept my attention. Great job man. Now others experiencing similar problems will be more willing to pursue these types of problems instead of just throwing up their hands. Nice job!

[@cullenmiller8170]

Wow. First of thanks for all the time you took to put this one out. Those are the days we remember and learn from. I’m thinking if they don’t want to pay for the PCM they should have to pay the 10 hours of your labor. You shouldn’t have to work for free, but having being tricked by the troubleshooting tree makes you evaluate your relationship with your customer. I think after those two trucks you will be looking at coils after pulling codes. 😂😂

[@jordysandino6577]

You never are a loser you are persistent and that I what I like about your videos you fallo the codes until you fix it 💯 %

[@brwesi]

Your work continues tp prove that your trade is a field yet to fully explored and understood. Several of your cases have shown that even the OEM has not identified every scenario that can aggravate the PCM! Tenacious techs like you and Ivan keep paving the way into uncharted territory, where only the brave dare tread. Thanks for your leadership and willingness to share with the masses.

[@scottgilliam7524]

That's a pretty crazy case study.

[@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT]

That was the mother of all rabbit holes, Jake! Brilliant diagnostic on an almost impossible case, when even the manufacturer leads you astray! This makes for a very educacional case study, despite the unchargeable time you spent on it. Great job and tremendous effort in putting the video together to share with the viewers, despite the mike mishap. Thanks!

[@fredsalter1915]

subbed! Great vid, sir. Not to be a Monday morning quarterback, but an initial detailed visual inspection would have taken less than 20 minutes and you would have found the problem. Actually, I am Monday morning quarterbacking! Thanks for posting, good sir!

[@fredsalter1915]

@@autodiagyt You're totally right. I guess I was just thinking that I would have been somewhat frustrated after doing a bunch of diagnosing only to discover that had I examined the spark plugs, I could have saved a lot of time. Pulling the boot off of the plugs is easy. Anyhoo, I'm loving your vids and learning from them! Rock on, sir!

[@cwstout1]

Sometimes when you get pitched a bunch of curve balls you have to stick with it, eventually you will hit one. Great video.

[@frozenstang3868]

Love your video's , the things you share really help me think things threw. Its so hard to believe it did not have a P0300 or P0308 with that mess you found. All you can do is follow the clues where they take you, dont be hard on yourself that van was low maintenance and that is on the customer.

[@bobcombs7138]

Wow! What a crazy one for sure! So the voltage spikes where interfering with the PCM causing all this crazy stuff to happen. Didn't see that one coming! Great diag and way to hang in there for the win! Thanks for posting this Video, it gives a new perspective on troubleshooting !

[@robertmobileman8304]

good job Jake , appreciate the voice over

[@danielkearns3600]

I also remember years ago key components came wrapped with foil to keep interference out but may now do it within the computers themselves but again has changed my process of testing and this will be top 3 checks before replacing any modules or computers once eliminating the secondary voltage irregularities and confirming it with known good oem part. Again thanks really has excited my diagnostic procedure for some of that has kicked my but recently and knowing of aftermarket coils I have even told the customer not to bring the vehicle back till he removed the Chinese coils which I felt like was causing his issues but know will scope this seeing if it is causing the interference to main pcm.

[@95GTSpeedDemon]

I agree, i would have put a pcm in it too. I will 100% check voltages for spikes the next time i have a weird one.

[@DavyDiag]

Great Diag, I love that you show the whole picture warts and all. Only one in thousands+ tech's pic that issue! And almost every shop will charge that ECM out

[@bas2876]

Again, great video!

[@danman9017]

good video it kind make me mad that you take a lost on this job because at work i am paid for all the hour i put .but i work for a truck fleet .tks great video

[@sleathers1551]

GREAT TECH MAN IVE LEARNED ALOT FROM YOU.KEEP THIS UP.GREAT TRAINING.IVE BEEN DOING THIS 28 YEARS AND STILL LOVE TO LEARN FROM GUYS ESPECIALLY LIKE YOU.THUMBS UP!!!!!

[@PaulCTownsend]

We also lost our butt on that V10 F-250 causing an ABS light which was the coils but the customer understood things and he would not allow us to only charge 1 hour. He paid us 5 hours paid for 10 OEM coils and plugs so it turned out good. We did have about 3 days off and on.

[@mikeburdi3464]

Hey Jake, you truly are a master of your craft, and humble to boot. I'm getting better with the scope, but always learning. You may have lost a few hours but the knowledge you gained is priceless, IMO. Keep up the great work and, and thank you for sharing your knowledge and putting out these videos! 👍🏻

[@windward2818]

For ETC the approach by the OEMs is to use redundancy in calculating to check one microcontroller against another, if there are two IC cores onside one package this is called lockstep, which is an extension of redundancy in that the compute cycles or in sync while executing the same code. This coil-on-plug PCM ignition uses dumb coils (actually autotransformers), where the IGBT ignition driver (amplifier) is in the PCM. For the coil-on-plug ignition to work properly the PCM must have a very good low impedance ground to the block near the coils, preferably two, one on each side of the block, these ground(s) are used to dwell the coils. Then upon IGBT switch off the high tension (high voltage) spark energy returns through the +12VDC PCM power through the low impedance of the battery or the PCM or both and back to the block. The +12VDC power for the PCM and the coils are usually supplied by the PCM relay (which will protect the PCM from reverse battery connection. We can reduce the spark current return impedance by placing two capacitors, one on each side of the block, to essentially act as a local filter smoothing the +12VDC imposed voltage spike. You may see two smoothing (sometimes called radio suppression capacitors) one on each side of the engine near the coil feeds and coil PCM grounds. With the above description we now need to ask the question how did a partially shorted coil modulate the +12VDC PCM power to the point of it resetting or having an internal fault. The answer is the coil is bad yes, but we must also make sure that the spark energy current circuit is as low impedance as possible. It is important to know the history on the vehicle in regards to major part replacements, like the ignition coils. As a diagnostician you need to really keep asking question to learn as much as possible about prior work.

[@bartscave]

Dang you have patience!

[@ford03369]

Thank you. I learned something new. 👏

[@marcdrouillard4055]

Hi Jake. Nice diag!! It sure looks like you may have to start including a noise check with your PICO scope on module grounds and power feeds when these types of intermittent failures (especially in critical PCM functions) are encountered in your vehicle repairs.

[@marcdrouillard4055]

Ignition noise suppression on most conventional automotive control systems is marginal at best! Any increase in coil related noise above normal due to coil/boot/plug performance can be an issue. @@autodiagyt

[@stevensnyder5332]

Great presentation

[@mikesabin8568]

Awesome video! Thank you for sharing

[@mwilson1227]

Thanks, Jake.. you tested powers and grounds like many of us would have done...but you went back and did further more in depth tests that showed unacceptable voltage spikes.. a great lesson for all of us to remember... pcm's dont like to be shocked.

[@PaulCTownsend]

Great job and thinking.

[@roxanneabbott8424]

Where are you located, what state?? Great work! Dont be so hard on yourself, you are so thorough!

[@stevemazzarella7212]

That’s crazy u had 2 in a row.. play the lottery😂😂

[@griffith04]

What are the odds of the coil on both being the fix? Amazing! We never stop learning. I've been doing this for 35+ years, I know I've got a lot more to learn. Your videos help everyone. Great job. A win is a win! Even if time was lost.

[@marcosmateo8439]

definately a follow. Thanks for the knowledge

[@GroundedDiagnostics]

video turned out good.👍👍

[@roberthemmerly500]

that was an awesome video

[@brucecolonna184]

Well done , I appreciate the time you put into the videos , great content, great learning opportunity for us all , thank you for sharing

[@deeznutz3494]

For the hell of it, I’d like to know what the secondary voltage was at on cyl 4 when it acted up, if the issue would’ve also affected spark voltage or not… I saw a slightly similar issue a while back, (a job I wasn’t involved with) where a car was in and out of the shop for the better part of 4 months trying to figure out why the low tire light kept coming on. It would come on and sometimes flash while driving, or when just revving the engine at a stop, then go back off when the rpm went down again, and I think there would be communication codes stored in it after the issue acted up. Someone eventually figured out, (after many, many parts had been replaced) that 2 spark plug tubes were filled up with oil. The assumption was, that the excessively high secondary voltage (from the coils sitting in oil) was interfering with the wireless control module signals and turning the light on because it was losing comm with the tpms sensors. It didn’t even cause a drive ability issue. Just when you thought you’d seen it all, huh

[@calebmohler3082]

Nice work man. That's rough having 2 secondary bleed issues like that back to back. I probably would have done a PCM as well. Just had an older Jaguar the other day with leaking coil that kept hitting the TCM power feed causing it too be intermittent no comm. Now that's always in the back of my head. Again awesome job man!

[@roxanneabbott8424]

So we watch a silent movie, lol! Its all good!!

[@mostafamohamed3022]

Awesome

[@waqasazmat81]

Part of the game, live today fight tomorrow! That was a good diag, regardless what you call it, I call it a win :).... I have a question, would the snap on scope show this kind of details? (guessing not). Once again thanks for sharing!

[@martinarrieta248]

Grasias

[@juanrodriguez-ry6yt]

gracias?

[@alanw5879]

All these coils, with all those crazy codes and comes back to something basic causing it, really amazing. Although I do think that the customer is semi at fault for putting cheap coils in, I had a customer who put a cheap coil in, and this was after the original coil had fried the ecm driver, I made him put a decent coil in because it was just going to cause the new ecm driver to go out again. He didnt want to change the cheap one he put in. I get so tired of the outcome of cheap parts. Great diag though, this example will be so helpful in the future.

[@chekelley6861]

Basically, a bad coil took out your PCM ma’am

[@jimyep9971]

It happens no biggie.

[@Mr2004MCSS]

Great diagnosis. Have you seen this same type of issue happen with the older one coil systems or even the older two and three coil waste spark systems and cause seemingly unrelated trouble codes to be set?

[@Mr2004MCSS]

@@autodiagyt Thanks Jake.

[@spinb]

So what would do differently if you had to diagnose these same exact issues again?

[@PaulCTownsend]

We had a Ford F-250 V10 setting the ABS light intermittently turns out it was the coils.

[@joeandgod1]

This is one of those problems that the dealer and 10 shops wouldn't have figured out.

[@advancedleveldiagnostics]

Wow! You really get some crazy ones, good job tracking that down! I notice you use the hantek 20:1 attenuator, do you not have the Pico Bnc+ TA499 10:1 lead or is there a reason you don't like to use it?

[@projectbode]

I will never understand why it is that you have to update . If everything is still the same on the car, why would you have to update anything?

[@HouseCallAutoRepair]

I just put customer supplied coils and plugs gor his 2007 Ford Edge. He got all 6 coils and plugs for $60! explained how cheap coils can FRY a PCM.... smh

[@jordysandino6577]

Great video as always mister jake . Quick question if you warm up the truck to replace the spark plug is it safe to remove the plug? Will not mess with the cylinder head tread? Since it is hot ? I’m trying to Learn cuz in the past I heard that do not remove sp with the engine not . Thank you sir

[@jordysandino6577]

Thank you for a pronto answer. Keep up with new vidios I always enjoy it

[@jordysandino6577]

Another question sir I hope that you don’t mind. If was the coil why the pcm did not show po 3004? I just trying to learn. Thank you sir

[@jordysandino6577]

Hello sir . I’m sorry I just coment on this but I just watch it cuz you say in the other video . Quick question so at the end it was not the pcm right? I’m learning forgive my for the questions

[@jimforsyth2.]

I just had a 83 f150 that i went on a wild goose chase . Because i missed a simple step

[@richardcranium5839]

those trouble shooting flow charts assume way too much. yes it had good power and grounds but it wasnt proper power. i would have never thought about this had i not seen the video. but then you think about it its not a lot different than an alternator with a shorted diode. the condition of the power is also a consideration i guess. old cars if you suspected an alternator just turn the radio on to am. i liked the flowcharts for showing test values in pinpoint tests but thats about as far as i ever take them. been bit too many times.

[@catfishsnagger3284]

What diagnostic information do you use? All data?

[@jimforsyth2.]

Was there any fish bite fealings or noticed misfires, in hindsight.

[@artificialIntelligence-rt5qn]

I already see the problem,,it's a ford😂😂😂😂

[@isaacjauregui2677]

How can I find your community on Facebook?

[@roxanneabbott8424]

Corrosion in the harness?? Who knows?

[@CajunShrek]

Y didn't flag a coil current condition??

[@CajunShrek]

Yeah that is weird cuz usually a coil that has been shorted out usually would burn out the driver in the ECM I guess I did end of the day a Pico scope save the Day

[@calholli]

So did they actually buy a new PCM with your first recommendation? Or were you able to refund it and put the old computer back in? I think you should have at least charged 2 hours. 1 for the false alarm, and then 1 more for finding it. But I agree with you that sometimes you should eat these and chalk it up to learning costs. Scanner Danner is really big about preaching that we should all be charging more, and charging for every hour you put into these hard ones; including all the time looking through service data, etc. Which sounds good on the surface, but then again: what if a mechanic is terrible and always taking 5 hours to learn how to do these things, why should he be rewarded for being bad? Right.. and then once people get good like you and Ivan and Eric, where you guys can diagnose the complicated stuff well under an hour. So why should you be punished because you're faster now? It just kinda doesn't makes sense to always charge for every hour, if you're stumped on a tricky one. Like you said, figuring out the Dodge helped you fix this one. So you really only have to eat the problem child once, and then it's part of your arsenal from then on, and you can do it quickly next time. Good stuff.. Cheers.

[@nickayivor8432]

Have a great weekend, Automotive Diagnostics & Programming My Mentor Automotive Diagnostics & Programming 👍 QUICK-WITTED Automotive Diagnostics & Programming From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 07:48am

[@thespammerhammer]

Always test the alternator for AC ripple first, ensuring a robust battery. AC ripple at the alternator (oscilloscope B+ B- AC Coupling) and AC output voltage at the alternator cable with an AC AMP clamp. Those tests will ensure no alternator noise infecting components. If it passes, then you can perform tests without that AC ripple. Can a coil damage a controller? yes, seen that a few times.

[@ericwalpole4601]

Awesome