This Site is Hilariously Unreadable - But it Wasn't Always

[@panconqueso9195]

It feels like a modern art project, specially the part in which the page screams WRONG SIZE.

[@NeatNit]

I've got "Wrong Needle Size" at 0:15

[@cnflx]

it's funny as hell the last line says "If a problem persists, we recommend that you contact _Sewing and Embroidery Warehouse_ "

[@ryanatkinson2978]

I was shocked that website was made in 2014, it looks like an early 2000s website. I guess it was homemade though

[@EnmaDarei]

I encountered this website over 10 years ago and I was never able to find it again. I've actively looked for it for literal years to no avail, I can't believe a random video from the KZbin homepage was what brought it back to me.

[@JohnDlugosz]

I recall original HTML allowed for implicit closing tags, and heading tags don't contain other headings, so they are implicitly closed when another heading is seen. I suspect the real change that broke the page was some setting that dropped the implicit closing tags and defined schema of the page, and allowed tags to be defined (and nest) arbitrarily.

[@Norsilca]

It still allows omitting closing tags on some elements like . But one thing HTML5 did was to standardize how broken markup like this is parsed. So before, it was browser dependent but now it should be handled the same across browsers.

[@disguysn]

This was my immediate thought.

[@stephenmg12]

I don't think the spec ever actually allowed it but browsers did.

[@stephenmg12]

​@@Norsilcathe spec says even br tags should have a closing, but what the spec says and what you can get away with are two different things.

[@Norsilca]

@@stephenmg12 The spec actually allowed omitting closing tags, and HTML5 still does

[@-Rishikesh]

How did u even find this site 😂

[@dani33300]

(This video was inspired by a Reddit post/comment I came across recently)

[@quazar-omega]

​@@dani33300 next question then: how did the original poster on Reddit even find this website??

[@dani33300]

@@quazar-omegaPresumably by stumbling across it randomly, while perusing the internet archives. Cool find.

[@casev799]

​@@quazar-omega My guess is that they likely might like sewing, Otherwise either just flipping through old pages or just pure damn chance

[@casev799]

Okay I just saw the last 5 seconds of the vid so maybe it was just flipping through old pages

[@querela92]

Well, in the past, HTML tags were also sometimes not closed, just opened to indicate the new element. I'm unsure by which strategy the (auto) closing tag was generated (what level, context).

[@user-to7ds6sc3p]

Tags seem to get auto closed right before the parent tag closes, so as late as possible. This is by far the easiest to implement and probably only senseful way. That was most likely always the case. You can still not close tags but it's bad practise at best and an awfull mess to work with at worst.

[@hellterminator]

@@user-to7ds6sc3p I believe it used to be the other way - if a tag was encountered that had no business being inside the current tag, the current tag was closed. That's why invalid mess like this used to work (at least that's the explanation I was given back then).

[@PelleReimers]

Not quite. Some tags, like , does not need to be closed. You can start each paragraph with a tag without , but they actually wouldn't be nested. There is special parsing rules for that. The same is not true for for example. Either the older browsers has absolute sizes for headings, or the parsing worked differently, allowing the end tag to be omitted.

[@JouvaMoufette]

Internet Explorer. Do I need to say more?

[@dvorakgigachad1444]

You mean certain elements like that aren't closed? OR XML-style closed tags like ?

[@wizard_assassin]

To add onto the video, the nesting seems to be due to missing closing font tags. For example: Try re-threading the machine; make sure the thread goes through all guides. Try re-threading the machine; make sure the thread goes through all guides. Try re-threading the machine; make sure the thread goes through all guides. This wouldn't have the nesting issue as the h3 tags would be implicitly closed to minimize nesting. However, if there's a font tag alongside the h3 tags: Try re-threading the machine; make sure the thread goes through all guides. Try re-threading the machine; make sure the thread goes through all guides. Try re-threading the machine; make sure the thread goes through all guides. Then the nesting would occur, and the text would get bigger. Looking at the source code, each h3 tag is followed by two font tags, some text, a weird "" tag, and a closing font tag. This leaves one font tag unclosed which is the reason the the nesting is occurring. If all font tags were removed, then there would still be nesting due to the weird "" tags. But if all font tags and the weird tags were removed, then the nesting would stop.

[@alfepalfe]

I read your comment on a different front end than KZbin itself (grayjay) and your HTML tags actually made your comment appear as and the bottom half as blue which I thought was kind of cool. A link to a screenshot of how it looked for me is below. media.discordapp.net/attachments/1172196848975483041/1195008484576604190/Screenshot_20240111-151643.png?ex=65b26d60&is=659ff860&hm=c45140d5b3ee72ee05260130d6247004064e244bd4adedb72873c4e04bcc871f&

[@KTibow]

This was fixed in Apr 2015 because a separate problem - a missing - was fixed

[@crazytiger6]

2:20 I saw this frame on Reddit in the unexpected factorial subreddit, crazy how I’m actually watching the video now

[@SanyaJuutilainen]

By specification, HTML tags should be closed (either by a closing pair tag or slash inside of a singular tag). But some browsers (especially older ones, but it still happens in modern ones sometimes) would close your tags for you. The problem with that is that it's unreliable behaviour that can change from browser to browser or even from version to version - the developers can decide that for example h3 tag shouldn't close before start of the next h3 tag, but all hX tags. Or before start of any tag. Or not at all - as it happens with going from HTML4 to HTML5 - HTML5 tags are usually more lenient and you can wrap more stuff inside of them. The key takeaway here - if you want your site to behave mostly the same, close your tags, don't leave anything to interpretation.

[@PelleReimers]

HTML5 has really detailed and carefully crafted parsing rules that makes writing a horrible tag soup a reliable and repeatable experience, irrespective of browser, as long as you add . ✨️ With that said... don't do it...! 🙅‍♀️

[@dvorakgigachad1444]

@@PelleReimers bro commented what i wanted to say before me xd

[@Yotanido]

Um, ackshually, HTML4 is based on SGML, which very clearly defines which tags can appear in what other tags. If a h2, for example, is not allowed to appear in another h2, starting a second h2 would automatically close the first. In practice, most web browsers never bothered to adhere to this and did their own thing, which is also how you could end up with different representations of the same site by different browsers. So you are correct in saying that it was a huge problem and should be avoided, but that was mostly because web browsers didn't bother to stick to the standard. HTML5 merges and extends HTML4 and XHTML. It is no longer based on SGML and has very strict rules about how a web page is to be interpreted. As far as I can tell, browsers do actually respect this. So this is no longer such a huge issue, but... just close your damn tags, lol. I personally like the explicitness of XHTML, so I will make my tags self-closing when writing HTML5. So I would use things like or

[@waldolemmer]

All browsers close your tags for you, not just older browsers

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

That's not true though. It's true in xhtml. HTML br and p tags don't need to be closed.

[@Samsung_Samuel]

I had no idea that a video could manipulate the size of closed captions.

[@aceman0000099]

Whenever goes in the captions, it changes the font size 😅

[@taliadx]

This was one of my favourite webpages for a while there, and sometimes I'd just scroll it while giggling. 10/10, thank you for reminding me of this masterpiece of web design

[@dealloc]

The reason why it wraps around is because of the categories of elements. Elements like h1, h2, p, etc. are _special elements_ which will automatically close because the browser expects a closing counterpart element tag before the end of the parent element. However there are _formatting elements_ like b, em, and, you guess it, font which have different rules. For example they can span across elements to preserve the formatting, until they are closed, otherwise they will close furthest from the parent component. This algorithm is known as "adoption agency algorithm" and is part of the HTML5 spec. But why then does IE display differently? Because IE, like many browsers in its time, used SGML parsing rules (albeit with their own oddities). The parsing rules were used because HTML4 (and earlier) were based on SGML, whereas HTML5 is not (but is backward-compatible). Modern browsers today are more spec compliant than ever, thanks to the works of working groups of W3C, WhatWG and ECMAScript. Although they are not without their faults and each have different quirks, still to this day.

[@neoqwerty]

shout outs to customizing the color of the navbar stuff in CSS, where I have to have two versions as a catchall because Firefox doesn't want to emulate the standard everything else agreed on lmao

[@mmmm768]

I think the subtitles are rendering the as an HTML tag instead of text 😅 I wonder how much can be injected into KZbin subtitles 🤔

[@fred-youtube]

What device and timestamp? it doesn't for me on Chrome desktop.

[@CombustOrange]

that very much should not happen because that would equal a xss vulnerability

[@king_james_official]

i'm 100% sure youtube uses some other format of text to avoid xss vulnerabilities

[@king_james_official]

@@PalmDevsyeah but it's easier if someone just lets you put raw html as subs lol

[@sarah12232]

these arent auto gen subs theyre written out

[@nekoyd]

5:18 anyone else notice he said "mistake" but the captions say "error"? i feel like that was intentional lol

[@ARandomKid-v4m]

“Woah, why is the text slowly getting bigger?!” - someone reading the embroidery troubleshooting guide

[@SunshineRey]

I’ve been casually learning to code since my sophomore year of high school and as soon as I saw the tags didn’t get closed, my eyes widened at the horrifying code. I always make sure to close my brackets and tags when coding, whether in javascript, python, or HTML, as I have had multiple times where my code got completely destroyed by a single missing bracket. Seeing this happen, get skipped over, and completely breaking an entire webpage is both hilarious and terrifying.

[@RavenMobile]

Fun video. As someone who has done self-taught web development since the later 1990s, I immediately thought "improperly nested headings". Gotta close those tags!

[@ZipplyZane]

I suspect that using rem instead of em would fix this. So I tried it. I added a CSS style rule using the dev tools, and setting h3 to use a font size of 1.17 rem instead of Chrome's default 1.17 em did the trick.

[@stefanoctaviansterea1266]

Lmao, the tags apply in yt subtitles

[@Tethrarxitet]

lmao

[@emdxemdx]

An "em" is a typograpical unit that is nothing else than the width of the letter "M", hence it's name. (And there is also an unit called the "en", the value of which I will leave as an exercise to the reader to figure out...).

[@king_james_official]

"Obsolete alternative definition The letter M, on the left in Perpetua and on the right in Calisto, inside squares of one em on each side. In some older texts, but not all, the em is defined, or said to have been defined, as the width of the capital 'M' in the current typeface and point size.[3] Possibly, this is because the 'M' (or 'm') sort in such cases cast the full-width of the quad (also known as em quad, mutton quad, or m quadrat); and thus, the width of the sort would equal its point size.[4] Note however, that in the oldest attested English text from 1683 mentioning em (as m or m quadrat), this alternative definition is not used, and also not in many other older texts.[5][6] "

[@neoqwerty]

"em" is also relative to its parent element's font size. "rem" is an em relative to the root's font size and the one you want if you want to be relative to the base/default font size.

[@gparyani]

Oh, so that's why the "en dash" and "em dash" are called what they are - I remember those from typography. (And yes, I did just use a hyphen there because I couldn't be bothered to find the correct dash.)

[@AiOinc1]

I think their 2014 website even in it's broken state looks 100x better than a solid 60-80% of websites today

[@amnow4456]

Genuinely in shock because i was on that wiki results page like a day ago and im a huge election nerd and i just dont believe this is a coincidence

[@elizabethfransen398]

I really enjoyed the tags affecting the subtitles to change in size

[@miko007]

i would actually consider this to be a browser bug. the syntax does not allow for headings to be nested. the browser auto closing those elements in that nested way thus makes no sense at all. it should auto close them right before the beginning of the next opening heading...

[@gparyani]

This is why Internet Explorer 7 and 8 had a "Compatibility View" feature: as these browsers updated to newer HTML and CSS specifications, older websites that relied on obsolete or "known incorrect" definitions of things from IE6 which would break on the newer browsers could render correctly.

[@AlexanderPrussak]

Love the unescaped html tags in your subtitles

[@AlexanderPrussak]

I appreciate that you're doing the extra work to create subtitles for all the blind folk, but I think it's funny pointing out that some html tags are applied to the subtitles directly

[@Cvolton]

as a side note, their current FAQ on their site seems to link to a random essay writing service for seemingly no reason whatsoever

[@bettafish541]

I had captions on on this video and apparently captions respond to html header tags too

[@BryndanMeyerholtTheRealDeal]

Font size 8,000 at the end? All the h3's really add up. Maybe the HTML standard changed at a point in time, and that caused the humongous font size.

[@BrunoMussoi]

It was not broken by modern browsers. It was broken from the start. It just happen that the past error (not closing the tags) was exposed. Old sites that were designed without errors will work just fine through browser changes. Build something bad and it will break. Edit: The responses (including my owns) are just stuck in circles. Ignore it if you don't want to waste time. Nothing new is being added to the discussion, just the same argument and counter arguments being remade in different words lol

[@RenderingUser]

So yes it got broken by changes (fixes) in modern browsers.

[@ketchup901]

If something works, and then a change in the browser happens and the thing breaks, then the change broke the thing.

[@BrunoMussoi]

You guys missed the point. I'm saying it was already broken, just not visible. The update exposed it. It is like you glue a bike piece back, but then someone went to use it for real, and it broke. Yes, while on display it looked fine, but it was not.

[@ketchup901]

​@@BrunoMussoi If you couldn't tell it was "broken", it wasn't broken. The website was used, for real, for years until browsers updated to break the thing that worked.

[@BrunoMussoi]

Lets do another analogy. You build a house, poorly made. It was used and worked for years, until the weather was "updated" and a simple storm crumbled it all. "oh, it is the weather change that broke it..." No, it was the house that was bad because of a bad design and bad builder. That is all I'm saying. If it was done properly it would not broke. Messing with html while ie4 was still the most used browser, and even back then we closed our tags.

[@ThrowAway-t3m]

As a Canadian, that's just the type of quality development I have come to expect from my country men 😂

[@vlco_o]

Looks like the tags in the captions of this video actually render and make the text larger. Who would've known!

[@almostanengineer]

Even though it’s been about a decade since I actually wrote any HTML, as soon as I saw the missing closing tags, I knew what was wrong 🤣

[@JNSchneider]

1:02 I find it funny that the tags are rendered in the subtitles, so when you say "opening tag and closing tag " the subtitles read: "opening tag *and closing tag*", where "and closing tag" is in a much larger font and on its own line 😅

[@wafflelmao]

fun fact: the subtitles are affected by the html tags

[@AH-uz3fx]

It's simple: someone cast a perpetual shrinking curse on you when you opened the page and it's getting worse as you keep reading!

[@Gadalac]

This is a superb channel. I really like how you present info. Please make more videos

[@tonicblue]

God I'm old. I immediately got what was up the moment I saw the thumbnail. The old web was a fun place!

[@PaulSteMarie]

Why isn't the browser providing the closing tags? The HTML DTD provides that the closing tags for p, h1, h2, and many others are optional, and the syntax in the DTD should prevent nesting like this.

[@Artoooooor]

And the last paragraph says, with normal-sized text: "If a problem persists, we recommend that you contact Sewing and Embroidery Warehouse". No, there is completely no problem :)

[@MiSt3300]

Subscribed bro, this channel is gold. Please do more videos of small and fun projects for developers like me who have the skills but no ideas for a fun project (;

[@AbandonedVoid]

Technically, the dev didn't make a mistake. There just isn't backwards compatibility.

[@jultomten3739]

This was fixed before the new website if you look at the backup at April 4 2015

[@TheEudaemonicPlague]

Well, it's crazy the places you can learn something helpful! Seriously, I didn't quite grasp that ems were relative...I'd assumed (foolishly) that they were a fixed size. It hadn't crossed my mind that I should look into it. I don't write webpages, just build epubs...but understanding HTML thoroughly makes a difference.

[@neoqwerty]

There's two different versions, you have em and rem; rem will be relative to the ROOT font size, while em is relative to its parent font size. Learning to specify the font size of :root and remembering to use rem units instead of em ones was one of those things I learned that fixed a LOT of my sizing issues when I started using CSS more.

[@eetuthereindeer6671]

A useful truick when you get a double unskippable ad on youtube: you can reopen the video after the first ad and the second ad won't play anymore after reopening. Idk about how it works on PC but reopening takes 1 second on phone while ads take around 7 seconds I wonder why ads are even sold to yputube. I personally care so little that if you asked what was advertised 1 second later I wouldn't know

[@user-to7ds6sc3p]

*'cough'* *'cough'* ReVanced *'cough'* *'cough'*

[@pythogron]

​@@user-to7ds6sc3pLMAO SAMMEEE

[@joker_j1268]

Tampermonkey extension could help a lot.

[@uranium_chunk]

'cough' 'cough' AdGuard 'cough' 'cough'

[@InventorZahran]

⁠@@user-to7ds6sc3p**cough** **cough** iPhone user **cough** **cough**

[@ggkol8745]

TL;DW because the default browser stylesheets used to specify heading tag sizes in absolute, rather than relative, sizes, and this page is a huge list of nested headings because that used to work fine

[@parmesanzero7678]

It wasn’t a mistake. We were actually often taught to write html in that way back then because it was simpler. Not needing to close your tags made it easier to read and edit the code and lots of people were taught to write it that way. Good demonstration, very very bad conclusion.

[@devdetour]

Thanks for your perspective, I didn't know that not closing tags was taught as a readability technique. Closing tags for headings have been required by W3C standards since HTML 3.2 in 1997 (www.w3.org/TR/2018/SPSD-html32-20180315/#headings ) so this is still an error, even if the author did it that way on purpose. Maybe "error" would have been a better word for me to use than "mistake".

[@king_james_official]

@@devdetour holy shit how did people in 1997 come up with this design?? the blue 's are unreadable lmao

[@king_james_official]

​@@PalmDevsbut i feel like being able to read something is pretty important when you release something for people to read and learn from. plus changing the color property or using a blank background isn't too hard

[@Foxite__]

@@king_james_official are you using Dark Reader? if i disable it, the links are red, and quite readable.

[@neoqwerty]

​@@king_james_official The anchors are red on that document, though, looks like your browser isn't correctly parsing the body tag's instruction to display unclicked links using C00000 hex color, and defaulting to "unspecified" and the blue unused, purple used links. (I checked the HTML code to see if Firefox was overriding some default but no, it's just following the instruction.)

[@neoqueto]

This is still better than Divi and Elementor and how many nested DOM nodes they produce.

[@thisisachannelwhy42069]

I love how the subtitles are affected by and Does that mean the subtitles are HTML?

[@mineland8220]

Those are some interesting subtitles. I like em

[@_GhostMiner]

This version is captured in 2006 according to wayback machine. Anything newer is fixed or doesn't exist.

[@olafcio]

I already knew these frontend things, but great video!

[@FoxSlyme]

As a person who has some experience with all it, I had a correct guess about the reason this happens from the very beginning, with each next thing only confirming my thoughts

[@alekslevet]

Turn on subtitles

[@TumbleFig]

I'm going to guess why this is happening before I watch: a long series of unclosed opening tags that browsers used to close for you before opening the next, but now are compounding each other as increasingly nested tags. Something like or maybe something really old like . ...how did I do?

[@TumbleFig]

Nailed it

[@costa-w3k]

i love how subtitles are glitched

[@LauraLowe]

This video taught me that captions are compatible with html

[@MrRyanroberson1]

A website like that looks like it was designed for you to zoom out while you're scrolling down, as in using the same mouse wheel

[@SinsAndSmokeOfficial]

Fun fact iirc the site used to more so explode back in the day then get larger with scrolling

[@SolomonUcko]

Why does the browser stylesheet use em and not rem?

[@KanashimiMusic]

Because with rem, if you used a heading in a container that specifies a different font size than the root element, headings would look weird.

[@davidmahon5269]

By April 2015 they had fixed the site, so yeah, it seems very likely real people saw that

[@theaiguy_]

This channel is so underrated

[@_GhostMiner]

Isn't this also why "rem" exists? Unlike em that is relative to its parent element, rem is relative to the document's root element (usually the html tag)?

[@daapz]

The worst part in browsers handling broken HTML and CSS differently was the IE exclusivity time back in the days. A site was hilariously broken on anything but IE and if you'd complain, they'd just say the site was designed for IE, please use that. Oh your OS doesn't have IE? Please use Windows.

[@jgharston]

Also: why's it all centred? I used to see huge numbers of websites like this, and still ocassionally stumble across the odd one or two.

[@Peluceus]

Here I was thinking it was a half-baked DRM scheme for a sewing book.

[@cyborgninjamonkey]

I saw the thumbnail and deadass had to watch the preview for 20 seconds to realize it *wasn't* TimeCube R.I.P. TimeCube

[@PunkrockNoir-ss2pq]

who would have thought bad html code would cause a website to render improperly

[@thatspacepirate]

What addon do you use for VS Code to display the website live?

[@ValerioAdriano]

The subtitles forgot to escape the HTML tags

[@agentnull5242]

What do you mean?

[@grahamfinlayson-fife73]

But why did they make the mistake to begin with? Don't most IDEs automatically close tags?

[@Ноунеймбезгалочки-м7ч]

the subtitles are broken by the tags said

[@LendriMujina]

_(plays Star Wars opening theme while you scroll down the page)_

[@AidenOcelot]

Ah yea! Isn't this called "software rot"? When the changing software and hardware causes old software to behave incorrectly if not at all

[@Zimodo]

might wanna fix the captions theyre kinda screwed up whenever you mention a tag

[@KryptLynx]

As far as i remember my html related attempts - it was unnecessary to close html tags at the time. So it might be not even a mistake

[@tzarg]

this video was interesting but it irritates me how there's just random bogus lines in the subtitles that just aren't actually said in the video and I can't figure out why, like did you think "oh, there, I can make this video better if I just change the script only in the subtitles" or did you like cut them out of the real video later?

[@devdetour]

Yeah, I uploaded the original script as subtitles and I typically cut out a few lines during the editing. YT captions mostly do a good job but for talking about programming stuff I find it often gets things wrong. Thanks for the feedback, I’ll try and cut down the script for subtitles to match the final edit in the future.

[@flaguser4196]

the dev may be a marketing genius

[@QualityDoggo]

"This website best viewed in IE6" 😂

[@Eyevou]

What a massive quirk of the old web!

[@qoombert]

this is what you get if you don't close your tags

[@DrAbhinavKumar]

can you lower the video volume further? It's too loud.

[@_GhostMiner]

Cleo was scared of the angry Twitter mob

[@mystica-subs]

Why did you not vocalize the first paragraph of captions? I hate that you are leaving out so much for people who don't read them.

[@lachee3055]

omg the red and blue fast scrolling font was screwing with my brain massively 🤮

[@RedStone576]

lol for some reason this reminds my brain of something that has to do with xhtml and a bowl?? idk i cant remember it also nice job on the subtitle

[@doltBmB]

an "em" is NOT an inch, the inch unit is DPI dependent, the "em" is font-dependent, equalling the width of one "m" character, which can vary in physical size depending on the DPI.

[@lateformyownbirth]

“For instance, *if* the font size property for an element is one inch” It was just an example.

[@fastpack6130]

Some HTML/CSS dev back in the day didnt fear using them double digit H's

[@trevise684]

got jumpscared by canvas there man dont put that scary stuff in videos, haunting

[@Ariccio123]

0:42 yes because web pages use the linux kernel

[@InventorZahran]

The majority of *web servers* use the Linux kernel, but it is not a part of the pages themselves.

[@sudonim116]

​@@InventorZahranthey were talking about the overlaid code on the screen

[@watchf]

hen you opened Canvas it was a fucking jump scare to my student ass 😂

[@miigon9117]

Wait what, you are saying it's not a joke?

[@Seven_Red_Suns.]

I kno whow to code in HTML, and i can safely say: this is total mayhem.

[@alef-0]

I dont know if what happens with the subtitles was intentional or not. But ot still pretty.

[@Scoopta]

I think you've got the acronym for CSS wrong, in my experience it usually stands for cascading shit storm...anywayyyyyyy

[@CathrineMacNiel]

only if you don't know what to do and have to rely on sass or god forbid css-in-js.

[@Scoopta]

@@CathrineMacNiel tbf I'm more of a backend dev so when I frontend I very much have no idea what I'm doing lol.

[@CathrineMacNiel]

@@Scoopta ain't it great that development can be specialised? Frontend dudes do frontend stuff, backend dudes do backend stuff. And Full Stacks are a lie :)

[@Scoopta]

@@CathrineMacNiel lol, that reminds me of a meme I saw. A dog says "I can't fly", a fish says "I can't walk", and a bird says "I can't swim"...and then you have a duck with "full stack developer" above its head XD...it does all of them but none very well

[@Maximum432]

Looks like that time cube website.

[@allie-ontheweb]

I appreciate there must have been a lot of effort put into them, but these captions are *extremely* inaccessible & distracting, and it's incredibly frustrating to watch this video as a result.

[@devdetour]

Thanks for the feedback, I’m sorry to hear this and I’d like to fix it! Can you share some more details about what specifically was a bad experience?

[@Crimson_Canadian]

naw, its not his site thats broken, but the rest of the internet

[@hellterminator]

And this, boys and girls, is why you *always* validate your HTML!

[@CathrineMacNiel]

it probably was HTML3.2 valid in 2004. And we don't talk about HTML3.2, it was... self-closing when you looked at it funny.

[@pauljs75]

Or specify the version under doctype and don't trust quirk handling so much. Hopefully that can account for possible later changes to the DOM that come with newer HTML specifications. (At least if the ability to parse older HTML versions correctly isn't lost due to depreciation.)