Thorin's Thoughts - The Underwhelming New Na'Vi (CS:GO)

Some thoughts on how and why the new Natus Vincere line-up has been so underwhelming, contrasted with its championship aspirations.
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/ thooorin
This video was kindly supported by:
Alexander Rao
Bluntsmokinganusdestry3r
Dane Cuskley
Dean Tanglis
Ho Chi Mao
JDubs
NateDOhDoubleG
Peter the Feeder
Tobias Bernasconi
Special thanks go out to JerCkysMiNi0n and Mohammed Alabdul Razzaq.

[@Panda-ss3zh]

-Guardian +Bluntsmokinganusdestroyer

[@krenzzie7290]

+1

[@63alkash]

Add both instead of flamie and slovakian

[@dingdongs5208]

I think they also need Jdubs

[@enigma4633]

9000 IQ move

[@GreenEyedDancer]

I would love to listen casters shouting his name.

[@Treegonometry]

came here to hear thorin shit on guardian's performance

[@RayGabrielMendoza]

As soon as u saw the title I know guardian was going to get shit on

[@arekusu5040]

what performance :D

[@incalculas9394]

@@arekusu5040 exactly

[@likewaterjkd]

shiut da fuck up, you fuckn bitch

[@kamalendughosh7573]

Me 2

[@sashagilmartin8869]

"Unless their name is Team Liquid" KEKW

[@succd9955]

I legit died xD

[@arekusu5040]

everyone but them won at leats one event last months :D imagine betting on that in summer lol

[@lain6183]

i said oof automatically

[@gaboopowered]

A shame to see guardian dip this low

[@aydnlewis1977]

Yeah he used to be the best player with olof in 2015. Now both below average. Times are a changing.

[@BatteryAz1z]

too fat to carry anymore

[@Mo-kl4fb]

@@aydnlewis1977 Huh? olof is way better than Guardian right now. He's even awping better

[@boosteddrimmsu]

@@Mo-kl4fb tru xD

[@aydnlewis1977]

@@Mo-kl4fb All I said was they are both "below average". Not implying they are of similar current form. Olof's stats are below average there's no arguement to be made, I'm also a faze fan.

[@BoLuCODM]

Meanwhile GuardiaN is watching this video sweating immensely, his phone rings and gets all scared.

[@1ava]

"as long as their name isn't team liquid they win tournaments!" feels bad as a liquid fan pepehands

[@levkhromov4852]

There was a pretty popular opinion in cis, when Blade became a coach, that his slow strats wont fit navi. Some cis talents doubted that Blade got a tournament winner mentality/experience that navi needs. Blade have never won tier1 events. Half a year gone , they still perma ban vertigo, dont play train (used to be their first pick), mrg is awful. Just kicking Kovac wont make navi top 3 team. New rifler will snake kills from flame and Egor will become new 'reason' of failure

[@oogabooga6619]

Наконец-то тот, кто хоть немного думает

[@IliyanStoychev]

good and smart comment, respect.

[@4tCa4mzUPqRZZo]

Did kane have a better reputation and opinion of then Blade by the cis community?

[@l1ghtny]

@@4tCa4mzUPqRZZo well, he was like a sidekick for zews and it looked like zews was doing a lot of work with kane doing more analytics than coaching. The blade situation is that he is supposed to do most of the heavy lifting in the tactics department

[@levkhromov4852]

@@l1ghtny +1 @Bill Interesting thing is that I haven't heard from any media person that Kane is "stilling paychecks", but no one could definitely say what his responsibilities were. Yes Blade is obviously rated higher as a coach.

[@baitreview]

Can you make a video on why you think mibr is so shit? It hurts my mind how a team with okay players and so much experience can lose to tier 2836 teams.

[@aminmw5258]

Agreed, i wanna watch mibr with tournament.. they have good players

[@rebon2312]

VP v2

[@adriencheung2273]

@@rebon2312 only reason why BR scene is still alive is because fnx left

[@4tCa4mzUPqRZZo]

Crazy how so little time has passed, but the results since adding Perfecto has being so much better. They went from only beating one top 10 team in EG in their 4 months with Guardian. To beating Vitality, Faze twice, Astralis twice, and Team Liquid. And of course winning Katowice, all in less then 2 months. Even more impressive given that last year with Guardian most of their wins were against Tier 2 teams, and now this year they've beaten so many of the best teams.

[@dingdongs5208]

Me: waits 2/3rds of the video for the guardian bashing Thorin pulls out graph Me: Ah there it is

[@JakkeJakobsen]

That intro 😂

[@saitama4128]

shat ze fak up u faking bish mens))

[@sandz1988]

s1mple intro made me watch this

[@martinolsen007]

Shat ap u fakin bish

[@niar69]

Thorin had been using this not only for this video, but for some other ones as well

[@sandz1988]

@@niar69 Sherlock ^_-

[@Vasilakos96]

Great video once again Duncan, however would much prefer if you had put the stats(or the matches) you were referencing on screen. Its tough to digest all the information you are talking about without some visual aid. Thank you for you work

[@LelouchLothric]

S1mple needs to leave to leave this org

[@salahsaadsalah7509]

He needs to leave so bad that you had to type "to leave" twice

[@kyl3644]

Agreeable, either s1mple leaves or the roster changes

[@illinoia9688]

shat ze faak ap yu faaking bish

[@h3nder]

Nah, everyone but Guardian is doing well, -Guardian +Some young CIS kid

[@deleted9767]

And then Navi will be able to win the major

[@tylerswales4096]

I cant believe s1mple still has double electronics KD-diff over this period when electronic has been playing so well what a beast

[@aal834]

Electronic's an entry fragger so it's not really a fair comparison

[@aal834]

But s1mple is definitely still a beast

[@matevo7745]

Electronics an entry fragger. His role is just to open up sites then die😂

[@rohit49plus2]

Thorin looking like a sunburnt apple.

[@benedictly1571]

rofl

[@reign225]

13:40 " Ok so lets go look at the roaster of this team " Guardian : Aight , imma head out.

[@rafisanders]

Somebody has to replace guardian as the main awper. Do I here Jame time!?

[@jongargano8189]

No way vp lets him go

[@shaitansingh1118]

No one can replace him

[@impish492]

Oh, wait... s1mple is literally the best awper in the world, alongside zywoo. Let's give it to mediocre ass Jame, or negative diff Guardian! smaaaaart

[@rafisanders]

@@impish492 and yet, they moved him off the main awp. To free him up to do what he likes. The argument is based off the fact that simple isn't the main awp. If he is, then we wouldn't add Jame or guardian to the team

[@staquez]

@@impish492 simple is a better rifler than an awper

[@MixesByLScher]

-GuardiaN +xsepower/Jame

[@BowlingOGs69]

Xsepower Would be great i think

[@tolland4433]

At first I thought xsepower, because Jame is also IGL and wouldn't fit in. But if boombl4 continues to be a bad IGL then Jame might be a good idea.

[@inquisitivechulo772]

TLDW: Guardian garbage, pls kick

[@samuelfryer5444]

Too late didn't weed?

[@969dramstik]

@@samuelfryer5444 not funny, didn't laugh

[@samuelfryer5444]

@@969dramstik NFDL?

[@benedictly1571]

@@samuelfryer5444 stfu

[@Voxdalian]

It'd be mad if Zeus would share this video and say something like "I was the problem, right?" Regardless of how bad Zeus was these past few years, that would be absolute fire.

[@svirv]

Thorin addressed that at 19:30

[@jcfilm561]

Well the thing is people judge Zeus off his stats and his movement isnt the best either and dont realise how much off a good leader he is even taking a team like fucking gambit and lead them to a major win.

[@Voxdalian]

@@svirv I know, I watched the video. But he didn't make a joke about it like I did.

[@Voxdalian]

@@jcfilm561 I did say "these past few years". I know how good he used to be. Recently even his leadership wasn't particularly good. I guess he just didn't evolve with the rest of the scene.

[@Zach-bt2ky]

Jack the thing about Zeus is that he was completely inept as a leader after rejoining Navi.

[@Jorkus1708]

-guardian + shiro , guardian is legend but time to move on...

[@mejtz6279]

Shiro seems promising

[@christhis9597]

Do the vitality method. Let simple do whatever he wants and support the shit out of him so he succeeds.

[@dugand10]

I dont think its fair to compare s1mples stats with electronics since electronic is the entry fragger and often goes in dry, ele and s1mple are the least problem of navi. Its guardian not playing well and flamie being very very inconsistant. Navi is going to come back tho

[@tyemorris9056]

He said those exact things in the video. Did u watch the entire thing?

[@ollie9999]

Guardians timing as a main AWPer is absolutely garbage. He's too impatient. Most times he dies is when he just unscopes off a spot. That paired with the fact that he misses so many easy shots too. If he's gonna play anchor AWP, he can't be so impatient.

[@jakebishop7822]

He also gives up map control so quickly.

[@Josh-ce5kg]

Honestly, bringing in Jame wouldn’t be terrible either. Now you also have an igl that fits the slow, methodical Navi style that is actually good with an awp. Simple is so good that he doesn’t need the awp to carry. Just put him in those entry scenarios with electronic and flamie and you have mad fragging.

[@benedictly1571]

^

[@WilsonCarlisle]

Already tried to go after Jame and Qikert. Neither were interested

[@shak9558]

No. On vp Jame is the starplayer, on navi he isn't even a top 3. His ego would take a huge hit.

[@xpr0gidy]

this hasn't aged well

[@Bozothcow]

Stanislaw's massive head on a PES dispenser omg XD

[@naitsirk32]

It just demonstrates how good Karrigan really is. Guardian is not who he use to be and now are creating terrible results with Navi Niko falls to rank 11 on hltv and is also not who he use to be. Meanwhile, Karrigan has taken mousesports to 2. Best team on hltv

[@lightningprowess6031]

Not really They real question is = can Karrigan keep the team on the top? Karrigan used tobring faze to the number 2 team until he dont have any 'new' tactic anymore that suit the team and the ffight broke up between him and niko after they falling hard outside top 10 Now he brought mouse to top 2,will the same thing happen? Or will it be another faze tragedy?A clash of ego between players Back in Astralis,he also had clash of ego with the rest of the team about how the team igl should work and they benched him and added gla1ve to their rank So,the real question = can he keep the conflict between him and his teammates when his team face a hard time? He failed 2 times, when Astralis struggling and there's a conflict bout how the team should work = they benched him then when faze struggling,not winning anything in the last 4 months,he and niko fight and he got benched again Now mouse at the top,but what will happen when mouse face a hard time like faze and astarlis? Mark my word,they will bench Karrigan again The same pattern

[@jessemacaspac443]

thorin putting out videos like handing out pez.

[@aimlevel]

Edward and Zeus got shit on for years. Now they are gone and it's still not working out. I'm just guessing here but maybe there is more to Counter-Strike than simply adding up certain stats and claiming they show a players worth to a team.

[@jcfilm561]

Bcus zeus and edward are underrated as fuck.

[@pliscinandre9799]

@@jcfilm561 i agree on zeus but edward was just playing really poorly at the end. He always did a lot with his supportiv style but just from his aim he did really poorly.

[@aimlevel]

@@pliscinandre9799 they removed them and added firepower. why are they worse now? ENCE removed AleksiB and added raw firepower. Why are they also worse now?

[@4tCa4mzUPqRZZo]

@@aimlevel How are they worse? Na'Vi was declining toward the end of Edward and Zeus's tenure regardless. Think you're way oversimplifying the problem there.

[@aimlevel]

@@4tCa4mzUPqRZZo you are right. I agree. But it's a fact that people stated for years that these 2 bots removed would mean NaVi gonna crush it. But it did not happen. I can't understand how legends of the game with a great overall performance and much underappreciated work for the team get shit on for years and get no credit at all. and that's basically what happened.

[@ImaTip]

S1mple is still carrying a team to the top teams

[@glebmka808]

GOD TIER INTRO

[@Samjie]

I always piss myself when I see NaVi force buy and Guardian or Flamie has a rifle, and s1mple or electronic have an SMG/Pistol. Like for the love of god give them the gun, do you want to win?!?

[@havoc1426]

-Give awp to s1mple -Kick guardian for some young talented cis entry -Give bommbl4 some more time Problem solved

[@havoc1426]

@tk haha forreal

[@crazyman7587]

:o

[@tonymantana2001]

Thorin try a natural cream from eczema , it’s called “yiganerjing” , it’s super gud ! Your welcome

[@nhannguyentrong1334]

Last time Navi ask Qikert, he denied because Avangar is his family

[@JoelTehMole]

Kick Guardian for Ange1

[@jcfilm561]

fuck no way better options than ANGE1

[@cruzyii]

​@@jcfilm561 Yekindar or Flarich.

[@mynameisntcoco4609]

Can you imagine s1mple replacing rain or olof on faze Jeez

[@benedictly1571]

Faze is done

[@danilobraun3891]

Faze needs a igl,not more firepower,i say bring NBK in and let olof go

[@johnnycatR58]

Who is a bigger paycheck thief, guardian or koosta?

[@benedictly1571]

Bother

[@InfinityGamingBLAZE]

-Guardian + DaddyLoba

[@smashing-3291]

lol

[@inory]

OmegaLUL

[@stfuna4b]

Unfortunately, I never believed in this new line up :(

[@uniq6997]

-GuardiaN +jame time

[@saratchandrab4384]

Every elite team not named liquid is winning something or the other.............🤪 The burn that thorin can inflight without giving a flying fuck is hilarious

[@NiceGamingHU]

S1mple & electronic carry this team Rest are mostly dogshit No offense, this is what I see

[@varunantil1776]

Don't ever see him picking on team liquid... What about NA shit? 💩💩💩

[@ankurdwivedi5023]

Kick guardian get better igl and give the fuckin awp to GOAT S1MPLE

[@samuelfryer5444]

I came to see thorin fanboy on s1mple and slate Guardian

[@mason7642]

Looking back on this g2 ranked 3rd mouz ranked top 5 same with fnatic but navi also top2 hmmmm

[@lowjiajin8333]

Imagine simple replacing Stewie2K

[@yazawanico956]

Would be better if he replaced NAF as he's the awper for liquid and stewie is good at being an entry fragger/supportive player.

[@baitreview]

Imagine s1mple replacing broky

[@cruzyii]

@@yazawanico956 Stewie cheats anyways.

[@cruzyii]

​@@baitreview Broky's doing great though. And they already have 2 star awpers on the team - Olof, Cold.

[@baitreview]

@@cruzyii lmao cold. I'm just afraid that faze will never be able to make past the top 5

[@uncut_cowboy]

Thanks for everything you add to the scene

[@charafadjabi5175]

why isnt zeus the coach ?????

[@svirv]

-Guardian +Jerry (igl) -BOOMbl4 +shiro or some other god

[@jessejane2209]

S1mple Bloom4 Electronic Flamie Oskar

[@dennisboon3280]

I don't get it. S1mple denied Faze Clan and even fking NIP

[@dustshelterinc3242]

Who the fuck is this torin? He is not even cs player... Jeez

[@dratlan5047]

Replace Guardian by any good Awper from Russia = Top 5 NaVi

[@JAP1994]

I dont get why they didnt get xsepower or jame

[@saitama4128]

sexpower

[@ezyawn3161]

@@user-qy3vi6gq6s nah s1mple should awp or rifle according to the situation so always sticking to the avp is not good

[@ezyawn3161]

Alex only awp might work in silver mm but not in pro competitive

[@dratlan5047]

JesusPadilla1994 Jame is baiting and his team sets him up very well. NaVi already has 2 stars, what they need is a good rifler that can awp as well On t side, simple awps and on ct side they could run a 2x awp

[@kernc7786]

Navi should replace Guardian with Speed4k

[@non-urbanninja3000]

"Look at that fucking kill to death ratio!" XD

[@PyromaneWK]

wth are these comments - what happend to your face.

[@lordarianec7057]

i actually check the stat for zywoo and while he's are not as good as simple he don't have the luxury to have a SINGLE teamate having positive K-D Diff

[@AMEHZ1]

So what ? Give s1mple the awp again? Get rid of guardian ?

[@Affenpeter]

You can´t bring up K/D ratio without the context. How much of these kills are Eco Frags? How much of these kills are from gun rounds? When does he frag? Does he get a lot of opening frags or does he get exit frags after a round is won/lost? (I would value opening frags much higher) etc. etc. etc. Also you have to consider how the playstyle influences the game state/ development of the game. How do you factor it in if someone loses you several rounds on his own? S1mple makes a lot of stupid plays. I remember the round on Overpass vs Fnatic?(not sure) where they win the pistol round and Fnatic force buys in the second round. S1mple makes a "dumb" push with the rifle, gets killed, gives the rifle away and Fnatic snowball the round. As a result Navi have to save the following rounds, Fnatic can build up momentum and an economy.

[@4tCa4mzUPqRZZo]

All of that is available on hltv. Opening frags, I believe he is third behind Zywoo and Device. Although s1mple has fewer maps played, so fewer kills and deaths. But he still has the highest opening kill ratio.

[@krypt1ccc739]

Talk about Perfecto pls

[@nazaras5576]

У меня в городе бомжи по лучше выглядат

[@cdee45]

I really think that until cache is out of the map pool and vertigo is in,Navi won’t be able to play to their true potential.However guardian is really playing trash those 10-15 kills is just not enough Zeus had the same numbers on average but he was the igl.but I think to play 6 maps out of the seven is a real anchor,and I seen that Navi seems to prefer nuke over train,but in my memory they played train more and better.

[@martinolsen007]

16:16 ahhh shit here we go again :P

[@YonaSoundcloud]

He's playing monster numbers despite being relegated from his legendary weapon the awp which catapulted him onto the scene in 2015. Thats just how insane simple is. His best results have been with an international team which he had to carry from the SUPPORT ROLE. God only hopes he finds a mousesports or equivalent that are willing to buy him out of this hell

[@seemelater5056]

okay dude, he's benched now, happy? xD hope he come back strong, love you GuardiaN

[@jordanshalala5298]

Lay off of the drugs dude

[@josiahjohnson375]

7:04 Lol saved it

[@his_purpose3]

I wonder what Duncan is gonna say about North getting MSL back

[@1ava]

the intro made me cry

[@k3nnn203]

i feel like guardian needs to change his awping style to suit the team a little better, because simple and guardian has diffrent awping style that kind of "contrdict" each other

[@germancommentresearcher6938]

Someone's lost a few bets *winkwink* ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@juhumamamam3768]

Zywoo>>p1mple

[@TemporarilyWoW]

Woopwoop

[@marcusdecimatron2710]

Maybe sh1ro from Gambit Y? He entrees and uses AWP and is unlikely to go anywhere with his team as it is.

[@jadedriz]

Liquid rip

[@Seerd1]

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE G.O.A.T RIGHT NOW.

[@d.lutmygmar]

They should get sh1ro from gambit youngsters if they can

[@Yr11B]

Perfecto...?

[@robertturni2845]

Feelsbadman for simple one of the best players ever and can never catch a break

[@nikitamarynich1794]

s1mple is slumping ( +258 ) LFMAO

[@Yr11B]

Правду сказал

[@Smittz]

*shines buttpounder420 signal into the sky* where is our hero?

[@qu1et361]

17:30

[@iggybish7966]

thorin stop doing so many opiates and picking your face my guy

[@_veikkomies]

Is that time filter from the 1st of October 2019 to 11th of January 2020? And is it form hltv? Because I can't set that specific timeframe

[@danilobraun3891]

He probably got it from liquipedia but im not really sure

[@clumps]

Please share your skincare routine, G.

[@mynameisntcoco4609]

Thorin is rocking the zucc hairline

[@schmeed0000]

-s1mple +dosia

[@ferminthegreat]

remove guardiane and put coldzera

[@rolling2k232]

NA’VI’s single problem is discipline

[@varunantil1776]

He will be back. No player can stop at the top forever. Form is temporary, class is permanent.

[@lightningprowess6031]

He wont Look at kennys,people said the same thing for more than 4 years Yet kennys still not back to his beast form

[@Shadi8694]

What if they just have fun together as friends and are ok if they aren't 1st place?

[@EagerEthan22]

Shadi8694 I don’t think you understand the point of top tier competitive cs

[@vi5ick]

Simple, Electronic, Jame, Qikert, flamie or for new talent sh1ro should be good this is the Navi that I want though but is just an opinion

[@lightningprowess6031]

Navi offered a deal for Qikert in the past But he refused it They also offered a deal for jamie,but he's no responding

[@vi5ick]

@@lightningprowess6031 still hoping hahaha

[@GS-uf4fp]

Just get Sh1ro or Xsepower.

[@derkrasse6249]

lesgo

[@rdvanbilgic341]

Best intro