Thorin's Thoughts - When everyone is good, nobody is

[@HOUNGOUNGAGNE69]

I wonder... If Thoorin was born 1.6k years ago... Could he have been better than Platon ? :O

[@Thooorin]

Seems likely

[@HOUNGOUNGAGNE69]

Haha, Inspired me ! twitter.com/HOUNGOUNGAGNE/status/544185254198915072 That my photoshopskill lvl 9999 ! Dear Mr.Plathoootin :D

[@michaeladams6047]

HOUNGOUNGAGNE platon is boring

[@zadokallen1499]

Neo Viper A piece of honestly well intended advice: delete that. Else make it a joke or something. You don't do yourself any good spouting nonsense about stuff you don't dig. What do you even care? It's not like you *have* to read it...

[@michaeladams6047]

Zadok Allen i am sorry ''platon is boring'' Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

[@ArakkAttack]

As Syndrome said; "When everyone's super, no-one is."

[@sampepper8799]

ArakkAttack no-one???

[@AbirZenith]

Great content as well Duncan, I hope this video gets the exposure it deserves because majority of the fans do not understand what determines being good, average and great

[@ThePookieHD]

You hit the nail on the head, just like with all your videos :) Really enjoy your videos so far.

[@lostn65]

I love your brutality and candor. There needs to be more analysts like you, willing to call it how you see it, even if it offends people or hurts their feelings.

[@Heeman1119]

One of your best videos, really loving the format and the volume of content!

[@JaskaPC]

Most of CS GO casters suck, they just keep being positive while hiding negatives. Oh player is doing bad? Maybe he's having a bad day, no he flipping crumbles against top tier teams.

[@PigBosley]

I think the csgo casters are actually the most harsh.

[@JaskaPC]

astrocrapper Lets take Anders and Semmler as an example, they NEVER say someone is bad. They always make up excuses for that kind of players and they always say X player is really good, oh and B player is good and C player is good. In my opinion Tosspot + Fifflaren did an amazing job at casting on recent tournament, they highlighted the failures instead of forgeting it or missing the action completely while looking at some ragdolls like other casters. I would like Thorin to cast more often at big tournaments, he did it several times on CS GO and he did an amazing job.

[@Kojakesh99]

"Oh, someone is bad? The other team just plays soooo good today!"

[@karlphilip8757]

Jaska Because it's disrespectful, they aren't analysts they are there to cast the game. They aren't there to analyze teams/players. If they start slagging off teams while casting they'll just be regarded as cunts because it isn't their job.

[@JaskaPC]

Karl Philip Then why have casters at all? Whole purpose of a caster is to provide information on the go, not to lick top players and teams asses.

[@musicat4am]

One of the most thorough commentaries on a problem that has plagued eSports for so long.

[@marcelobenattoferreira2998]

Using your own scale, i'll rate you an Elite game commentator. I couldnt agree more with everything you said, i watch the LCS and you described exactly how it works, everyone is good in their eyes, there's no scale whatsoever. I agre completelly about Froggen, to me he's an Elite player, best EU player hands down. My lack of english skills avoid me to express why i think he's the best, but i trust you'll make a video about him, and explain the reason why. Keep being honest at informing us about the games, you're the best in what you do.

[@vvvortic]

hey doordin, you forget to mention that bronze elo hell exist, theres prayers such as meself that have insane high skill cap mechonics on champinos such as ap support lee song, but no matter how perfect my le skills are, i always get bad teammates who troll or feed making me tilt harder the next game and i lose even harder, but its not my fault i should be in challenger, blizzard needs to fix their server, gg

[@ocke94]

Go be cancer somwhere else

[@vvvortic]

ocke94 get muted chad

[@MeowgiMan]

hey vortic u cheeky gamer. was a big fan of u since ur 1998 debut in vegas. been heer since day #1 wud u name me u r best friend!?!??

[@deadgiveawaybro7895]

lol bronze elo hell.. plz change your name to scrub4life

[@timur7381]

DeadGiveAway Bro Its hilarious that people still get baited to vvvortic's comments. They can't be more obvious.

[@ekajjj]

I've been reading your coverage since I was still a teenager. Keep doing what you're doing.

[@GanjaGardner]

Nice to hear sumone tell it how it is, and doesnt just beat around the bush. Keep it up Thorin!

[@rubenlier2239]

Doesnt matter, we have twitch chat to determine who is garbage.

[@Sydling]

I am mostly a CS:GO guy but I watch a couple of SC2 tournaments a year and I have no fucking clue what players are at the top in SC2. I too would love if the commentators/analysts/whatever actually told me how good they are and not that they are good, just like all of the other guys.

[@NickAlekseyevich]

Thorin is so much on point again. Loving the series.

[@Rugue123]

iim only half way in as I'm writing this... but DAMN what a video dude. One of ur best EVER. Great topic, amazing presentation. will write another comment with my view of the topic when I'm done watching! (prolly gonna rewatch it).

[@earny]

993/1014 Videos to go. Sheet. Why did I have to find your Channel? (And why didn't I before) Really mind enhancing in-depth talk.

[@Ice135Cold]

I agree with the video, however, I get lost sometimes when he switches back and forth between players from different esport scenes.

[@Sevorast]

Absolutely agree with this, I've been saying we need to stop comparing pro players to the rest of the player base since season 1.

[@Dirkzy]

This is so true. I used to watch a lot of starcraft 2, watch not play. The amount of fake hype in casting / discussion podcasts was unbelievable. I never really knew who the best players were.

[@rumthin]

This is why I like your "style" of analysis. You don't beat around the bush, and try to be pc or polite. You simply call it as it is.

[@CharlyBGoode]

While i agree with this video on most points (I'm not much of a PR guy), i still think you have to remember that players are actual people who deserve at list a little bit of respect. Saying a player is bad, mediocre, very lacking, subpar or isn't good enough to be in a pro team is harsh but seems fair to me as long as you have reasons to believe it. However, saying a player is "total shit", laughing at him and bashing him for a whole episode while smirking and trying to sound clever is in fact quite childish, hurtful and totally irrelevant as far as accurate analysis goes. Even though I love his content, Thorin, can really annoy me from time to time with this kind of attitude which reminds me of some of the teenagers I work with in my highschool. In fact, this may be the reason why I tend to prefer "Reflections". Not only because the questions are interesting but also because Thorin rarely gives us his opinion as he sticks to the interviewer role.

[@cryfest]

Isnt it wrong to be considerate just because "THEY ARE HUMAN TOO"? This is a logical deduction of skill. Nobody is saying that "x" person is a terrible human being because they arn't as skilled as some other player. We are talking about skill and ability in a game. Not trying to judge the players as a human being.

[@CharlyBGoode]

I think it's too easy to be rude and offensive just because somebody isn't your friend.

[@xxxxxxxx8903]

I agree with CharlyBGoode. You can say the truth while staying objective, let the facts speak for themselves. - "Player A hasn't performed all season. Right now he's not earning his spot on the team." - or "Player A is shit." Both mean about the same, but come on! The latter is not only uninformative, it's also misleading. No matter what Thoorin has been watching I'm pretty sure none of the players have turned to, or been, feces.

[@kamalallen458]

Cody Potterf Too bad we are at the age of pussies who cry when someone says their bad.

[@Azmodeus87]

cryfest The problem is that that reasoning can be taken to far as well. Let's say, for instance, in the FGC.It is not unusal for players to comment on others or their own skills with any given characters as being good or bad compaired to the Pro-scene. Now compair that mindset to most any other skills you normally use, like math. Alot of people is considered good at math but no one is using that imply tha they'r the next stephen hawking or Einstein. So the pro-scene is already missusing terms with fairly obvious usages, the only difference is that they are devaluing pro-players rather then balancing the terms based on the average skill level of the community, which is really the only baseline you can draw.

[@Reminiscable]

I like when you define terms (best/elite/very good/good) after complaining instead of just complaining :)

[@kevinmarchetti6307]

great critque thorin always loved your input into starcraft and this is really great

[@dizzt19]

It's the general problem with any kind of public speaking - it's suggested to use positive expressions rather negative to express the same idea. People who are hired are expected to be as neutral as possible while pointing out the good instead of the bad. Sometimes pointing out the "good" can be as biased as the "bad". The game review example is a pretty good one, I hate when they use a scale but not all of it (just dump the scale then) - there is the same issue because people tend to be "fluffy" and neutral to not provoke anyone (for example Good Game or Elder-Geek). Saying how good someone is can largely be an opinion (people have biases) so you have to tread lightly on a professional broadcast.

[@willgia]

I disagree to an extent. I would rather hear what the teams/players are bringing to the game, instead of what they are lacking. It just brings a much more enjoyable experience to know that all of the players that I'm seeing are very good (or good, or great, w/e), because by all rights they are. However, you're right about the comparison ratios. Instead of hearing "this player is bad" or "this player is just average", I would much rather hear, "I think this team has the advantage, because X, Y, and sometimes Z." or "this player, while he's not elite tier, he can control this factor of the game remarkably well". Something that puts more focus on why the games that I am watching are more exciting, or why I should be interested in the outcome, instead of just a scaled comparison between the players. Just my opinion from a viewer's perspective. Good vid

[@ViceFielder]

Heh, kinda makes me think of all kind remarks when Fifflaren was cast with commentators on DH winter 2014...........

[@calebpittman]

"when everybody's super, no one will be" - the Incredible's

[@nathanielwebber1718]

I like the Orwellian comparison, it definitely fits. LOL Worlds is always horrible to watch because no one says what they actually think, they just say everyone is good. My favorite casting moment was when Kobe said in response to Cruzerthebruzer's TP was "MAN THAT TP SUCKED!!" I'm a Dig fan and I appreciate Cruzer's work for the team and think he did a serviceable job, but Kobe was right and it was a great casting moment. I wish Riot stopped the cheerleading, I already know that the pros are good relative to the game's population as a whole.

[@OiCCaboose]

I have this idea for a CS sub-game mode where you play with incredibly smart bots based off real players with in-depth stats based off how they play (a stat system like Madden uses). I'd trust Thorin would be the guy to accurately set those statistics and ratings.

[@lillaoscar]

as for the rating of players i come to think of the "French Football league 1"s way of rating players from 1-10 but having the standard of using 4-8 being slightly below average to very good, and reserve the 1,2,3,9 and 10 for the exceptionally bad, very bad, bad, and 9 and 10 being the above great and godlike as performance meassurements (spelling?) thus if u score a hattrick u might still only be a 8 if u scored "simple" goals and missed some shots, but on the other hand if u do make 4 or 5 goals u get the 10 and its easy to understand that that player was outstanding.

[@job187]

Artosis, a famous SC2 caster, used to be very honest and call out bad players and cheesy strats when he saw them as he casted GSL back in the days. And people fucking loved him for it.

[@JoHAnn1337]

my feeling the whole video: no shit, sherlock

[@DystopianAwakening]

Thorin is an idiot, he feels he needs to ramble like a cokehead for 45 mins explaining something that is common sense.

[@maeschder]

DystopianAwakening If you follow LoL, you should know that this is a problem. Casters and analysts will constantly excuse shitty play and dumb decision, no move is ever bad, they're "questionable" at worst and they're always like "he must have had a good reason for doing that".

[@bertramnocon1339]

DystopianAwakening I think he made this video because people keep starting fights with him over his use of the terms good and bad

[@ChaseMe2TheSky]

Great memes, my friend!

[@Akaitoism]

ChuckNorris130194 That and Thorin's other complaint about people who wait to see the results: "Oh, he won? That build was genius." "The other team really needs to think about different picks next game"

[@SuperBrownCanadian]

I do agree with Thorin it's just that when you are watching a EU game with 2 mediocre teams but onr of their mid laners played a well game and carried with dominance it's hard to say he didnt do good but carried. As long as people understand that when i say good in a EU game i mean good in EU standards. When people said UOL's mid laner was one of the best mid laners that was incorrect.

[@AlexVdew]

Good points. I think it does go both ways though - if you just start calling some players Gods and others s### then you risk polarising debates, which is also ultimately unhelpful.

[@ChaseMe2TheSky]

Hey, Duncan, video about Genja coming up?

[@simonolson7102]

I agree with you but I got the point 3 minutes in and at 17 minutes i realized you were still talking and I closed the tab

[@ghoztmazta1]

I feel like people are too stupid to understannd thoorin, and call him stupid things while he is just very honest in his thinking. thoorin is KING

[@TheRealRSD]

the problem is that those of us that have an insight and the balls to say the truth will never get chances to commentate because we don't suck up to the organizers/players

[@AGuy565]

+Thooorin I'd like to know why you don't consider olofmeister one of the best players

[@KristopherWilliams_tahmson]

"... and that's the problem!" "... and that's the problem!"

[@gregmontgomery1415]

Excellent elocution and mastery of verbal consonance. I would ask that you use more statistical fact when separating the best of the best. The top %1 of CS players have such similar statistics and it's almost always a case of the team making the player.

[@RhokuTV]

Please discuss hiko leaving c9

[@albertgreen1402]

Are you going to be doing a player ranking for 2014?

[@Kutkop345]

This is another video you can show to people who comment really stupid statements to you every day. TY thorin, saved me some hours explaining :D

[@Dursti007]

Hey Throin, dont assume you will read this. I thought about this as well, as recently as last IEM. And I came to the conclusion that the casters CAN NOT say "well this player is fucking good and his opponnend is uttlery shit, so he will get stomped" cause that will kill all the hype. thats the problem right now: Hype sells, not the best players, but hyping "bad" players up to be on par with the really good ones, makes even tournaments and more viewers. Noone is gonna watch a game when the shoutcasters tell the causual fans that team a will win 99% of the times. They need to make it interesting for the viewers, and have to say "well this matchup is pretty close, both their zvz is at 90% winrate" completly disregarding what caliber of zvz the people played in. regards

[@kaikkivetaahabaneroo]

League isnt the most casual game right now, lets face it, dota2 is. The players dont have real incentives to play for. A lot of the teams dont scrim or practise together, some hardly even play dota anymore besides the tournament games.

[@TheElectriczil]

They play quite a lot and the league players are quite weak compared to other games where some players are godlike

[@Jonereator2]

Such a stupid thing to say, complexity ≠ how competitive something is.

[@FirebreatherRay]

I think what he means is that League has the largest base of casual players/viewers.

[@danielvutran]

Yeah let's forget about the $2m prize pool, what does League have again? More casual players? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaha XDDDDDDD

[@Mr45roma]

TheElectriczil nice troll

[@y4playiny4self]

Thorin, you are awesome...

[@Frikgeek]

Top 1% is a serious understatement. To even be challenger on EUW you'd need to be top 200 out of 2.5 million active ranked players. That's 1 out of 25000. Top 0.004%. This gets even more ridiculous when you consider that this only applies to lvl 30 players who play ranked at least once a month.

[@charless8722]

Amazing as always. I eat these up!

[@andersreiche]

Another great analysis. thumbs up.

[@Zephrike]

8:59 when the top 100 CS players and such. I had the same aspect in the Halo genre where If Pro was T1 and Semi was T2 I was about 2.5 I was destroying people in 1v1s 4v4s 8v8s everything, 30 kill average 4 deaths, 80% head shots. But if I went against any type of pro my ass would be handed on a plate

[@Don4425]

these comments tho... It's like inception: where does the sarcasm stop??? OP

[@VivaLaRazsa]

With JW getting more opportunities to show up big in the past few months than kennyS, i would like to know why thorin still sees KennyS as a clear Number 1 7/7 How to compare theoretical skill and practical impact?

[@vageta]

I think the real discrepancy here is whether Riot is casting for the casual audience who just enjoy watching without learning to improve versus those more dedicated to the game and wish to learn as much as possible from the games they watch. The casual watchers wouldn't really care much for a more detailed scale of the pro's performance levels and it seems that this is who Riot's priority target audience is. They have analyst desk for the more dedicated fans but even then, they only get to go over so much.

[@neeldp1999]

Somehow I just knew uzzziii was going to be brought up in this video eventually, haha

[@soupnazy]

'average' means 'a middle point between extremes'

[@dirwin3824]

I enjoyed the nba comparison. Great video!

[@mostPromptus]

You should make some sort of chart of performanve from 0 to 100 vs adjectives from completely shit to god.

[@aLexKcss]

Is that irn bru with ice?

[@sebeng861]

really like your rants, keep it up :D

[@NightOwl577]

impaler and jezis are beasts in NA challenger but was only average in EULCS

[@DystopianAwakening]

Beasts? They already lost to Curse Academy and they beat a team of Diamond 1 players yesterday. Not really impressive. And Jesiz just represented EU at Worlds only a month ago and he was on the 3rd best team....he was DEF above average in that region.

[@NightOwl577]

lol jesiz above average. jsut because he was on a third best team doesn't mean he's automaticly above average.

[@CarnivalNights]

I think a better analogy to your basketball example is comparing the Chinese Basketball League to the NBA.

[@oddishjing]

While "good" is a relative term, it is also a subjective term because people have different ideas of what's "good" and what's "bad." Plus, the term "good" can apply to more than one aspect of a player. A player may be "good" at some things and bad at other things. Even time plays an important factor in these sort of labels because a player who was "good" two years ago may be "terrible" now. Labeling a player as "good" means there is a specific context in which the player is considered good. Professional players are all "good" in the sense that they are that top 1% or .5% of the population. That being said, overusing the word "good" for every player just inflates the meaning of "good" and the value of the word depreciates. I don't see the point of calling every professional player "good" because they are still relatively "better" or "worse" compared to one another. However, they are still all very "good" compared to the rest of the population. So yeah, context matters.

[@xplurislifex6390]

LOL he said DanDy is the best jungler in the world. KaKAO may be a free agent, but he is still alive. But I agree that pros being compared to lower than skilled amateur players is ridiculous, although I have never heard a case of that happening, thank goodness.

[@spence3743]

You know what I think a big problem is though with NA/EU LCS? It's that a lot of the players in the LCS really don't play at a level that a plat/low diamond player couldn't do themselves. They're not that great and the regions are relatively weak aside from importants and a few key players, most teams get by with teamplay and not mechanical prowess (c9 is a great example) and that's why they get shit on, on the international stage where they could play someone who might be equal to them strategically but worlds ahead mechanically. So my point is in terms of NA/EU LCS in League of Legends, you really can compare the pros to the average player. Mobas are different in that realistically anyone can become a pro if they devote the time to it, it's not like CS/Starcraft or Street Fighter/Smash where some people simply are not capable of being pros or even good at those games. If anyone actually read through this, you're a god.

[@justanotherstarinthesky]

+azio91 its like the difference between diamond 2 and 1

[@realeques]

its like doublelift , everyone hypes him but if you just watch him play, like on stream or somethign , he is not even close to wildturtle. wildturtles outplaying mechanics are next lvl . doublelift is just good.

[@Luminaria96]

wat

[@mking199]

I sencerly hope you are joking.

[@bf3awesome1]

Lol? Im a doublelift fanboy and u can say wildturtle is better on everything adc concerned then doublelift and i would agree... except for outplaying people lol.... doublelift is a godlike adc in terms of outplaying people

[@andreasjensen8845]

first off that is just plain wrong, second off i think you should keep ur opinions to yourself and stop humiliating yourself

[@realeques]

likewise

[@AzelasEM]

if you had included Dota2 you'd find there is a rising popularity of critic casters, they have mostly pro-player backgrounds and they tell you how things are, without bullshit. They tell you why a mistake was done, why it was a mistake, and more importantly: why they think the pro player DECIDED to do that instead of another thing (sometimes there is a logic behind mistakes, like for example we are incredibly behind, need to make some ridiculous play happen to recover)

[@ESPFTW]

I think putting it in terms of the 1% is fair. "Player A is total shit compared to Player B, and here is how." How, not why... Because that is the facts of the competition. But sometimes the underdog does win. So rather than making it about the person who is "total shit", you also can say he won because "Player B" didn't see the left hook coming. I applaud the latitude of language, we need more of it.

[@7erdogdu]

Duncan is the first Brit who loves basketball I have ever seen.

[@XJ9LoL]

im the best person irl and ingame so when im the best nobody is good as i set a new standard

[@m4nserv]

Sorry man, vvvortic took your job

[@lordcrispen]

I love the idea of this video, but I think when someone is below average of their peers in a professional competitive arena, you can be honest about it without calling them "shit" or "trash". It's stuff like this that perpetuates the negative atmosphere around esports. Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with the theory and message of this video.

[@starburst5661]

Thorin is right and really just using common sense. if riot wants the game to be taken seriously, like a real sports this is exactly what they need to do.

[@ViceDellos]

thorin: "forget the 99%" that seems like it could be taken out of context very well

[@mintymilkk]

Best caster around!

[@ellaclaire1061]

For some reason, Broodwar never had this issue. There was no illusion that even a Korean practice partner could stomp pretty much any foreigner. And while we defined "elite" as Taekbangleessang, nobody shied away from calling someone like Jaehoon or Kwanro "bad." Of course, everyone knew that nobody they'd ever meet would even get a third as good as them, but d- scrubs could recognize the difference. Why do you think it was like this in BW but not now? Just a fundamental lack of respect for the top (meaning creme de la creme) players' skills?

[@xKazuho]

liking the videos thorin

[@tomastaz]

shots fired at NightEnD!

[@huneylove5]

When everyone is a super, no one is....

[@ecole146]

Thorin I would love it if you would add a banner or logo or intro of some kind for the first 2-3 secs of your videos, because every time I watch one of your videos I miss the first two words because you jump straight to you talking.

[@Ethnx]

i love the every day a video week : )

[@PWzhouster]

Using a League of Legends example, I'd say that the majority of people would agree that Faker is the best LoL player of all time. On that scale, would you put Dade, Pawn, Froggen, etc. as "best" (7) or "elite" (6), since they can compete at that level but not dethrone the God known as Faker?

[@polacs]

NO vvvortic?!?!?!?!?!? the apocalipse is comming!!!!!!

[@DevilmarGaming]

When you say it should be 5/10 is average. In the US nobody thinks like that and it must come down to school grades. 5/10 is failing, anything lower is fucking awful. 7/10 is a C which is average score and 9/10 is an A- meaning its good. No matter how hard you try everyone is going to probably apply this logic to it.

[@eStecko]

For dummies, tl'dw version from Louis CK - i.imgur.com/jDB5A47.jpg

[@one2gaming]

If you say "shit" less, and use "bad" more, I bet Riot would take notice of your personality improvements and not hire a hit-man in their implosive reaction to not being able to give you a fine.

[@vmxaesa]

The concept of phrasing not being toxic in this culture and is in that one is fine. However, if I shit talk my good friend and he comes back, we laugh. We have a relationship. The analogy is I go into a bar of mostly stranger and use the same phrases. That is going to get me in some fights. They are going to think I am toxic and I would be.

[@maeschder]

The analogy only holds up when talking to someone directly. Also no one asks to be allowed to literally shit on people on stream, and they are mostly pissed that they have to pretend bad plays don't happen.

[@KarstenGerner]

a good balance would be nice. as with most things

[@topdoge4700]

When everyone is a super... no one is..

[@Dr1nc]

I dont understand why this video needed to be 24min. "If everyone is good, no one is good" is enough for people to understand what you mean. I understand why people were out thinking you on CS:GO.

[@itsNeskeyHD]

The only two teams that have all best players (CS:GO) is ldlc and fnactic and that is why they do so well

[@irrlicht2280]

fnatic ? you mean aimbot flusha ?

[@Rugue123]

CRoNiX the DMG has spoken.

[@TheTSicKK]

NiP????

[@AsianIsAtheist]

I am honestly glad Thorin was fired from On Gamers. His freelance content is awesome.

[@themaharishi8160]

Have you watched UFC? Every fucking fight they say "Trained in one of the best camps" then either "Up and coming" or "One of the best fighters" =) I love your work. Haven't been to ongamers since they shot themselves in the head. I mean you we're basically their only good thing.

[@ArneVanDenHaute]

That's why tiersystems work..

[@Godspeed19961]

this reminds me of Soaz, i mean he is so bad, but nobody talks about it. in Lcs rating compared to good top laners he is a 1/10 straight up.

[@chryzos3091]

The Problem is that his Industry is too young. If there were ex players casting, no one would fuck with them when they say player x is shit. Imagine Faker saying in 10 years player x is really bad for OGN standard. No one would fuck with him. Just like Micheal Irvin in NFL or Oliver Kahn in Bundesliga.

[@bryancutler4634]

This is so True and Good

[@yoshi_mel]

Froggen is a double-plus good player.

[@MrKingbeast04]

Much more than top 1% for NBA players, probably around .1 or maybe even lower.

[@MageKirby]

Dis why I watch korean casts.