The Problem with Jedi in the Disney Era of Star Wars

[@SirCalculator]

Rey unlocking Force Healing which is exactly the Power Anakin longed for and Reason him turning to the Dark Side is the biggest punch in the Face available

[@emberfist8347]

Only it being on that level. Force heading was never prior depicted as being capable of necromancy. It was specialized as it only speeds natural healing in a galaxy where the majority of weapons cauterize wounds instantly.

[@TankHunter678]

@@emberfist8347 Even Video Game exaggerated Force Healing only worked on basic injuries.

[@CaptainCoolzCT-]

@@TankHunter678 exactly. Small cuts and wounds inflicted during a battle are what force healing is supposed to be able to help with. RESURRECTING FROM THE DEATH, as was shown in the Sequels, is RIDICULOUS.

[@yurieu5872]

it never happened if you didn't watch it 😎

[@Groffind]

@@emberfist8347 For him every bit of healing related information was necessary. He didn´t exactly know why she was dying only that it was at childbirth. Natural healing with the help of the Force might even help him then, if it was because of internal injury.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Disney: "The Force isn't about lifting rocks" Also Disney: "You know what would be cool? If people used the Force to lift rocks"

[@Maria_Bar]

Obi Wan didn't mention the trick to Luke obviously

[@user-ts9rm9ce3h]

That was pretty cool though

[@aguilarrojasoctavio4402]

@@Maria_Bar Sounds fair, that´s why he was always a step above Anakin

[@chrisblahblahh4468]

As powerful as Disney is, I think we should point fingers at people how are actually responsible for these decisions. Disney is an abstract entity, but there is actually screenwriter, film director... etc, who have to take responsibilities for what they do.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

@@user-ts9rm9ce3h It's a vulgar display of power. And not in a cool, Pantera way.

[@dereklopez9060]

"That's not how the force works." The way Harrison Ford says that line in TFA, totally sums up to every abysmal writing about the sequel trilogy. It's like he's telling the audience that this is absolutely ludicrous.

[@sologirl7194]

I kept repeating this line so many times while watching the sequel trilogy, until I finally came to the conclusion THAT'S NOT HOW STAR WARS WORKS!!

[@SiriuslyBlack7]

My thoughts exactly!!

[@therty4979]

Totally agree with you broo

[@chasehedges6775]

Same

[@chasehedges6775]

@@sologirl7194 Disney doesn't understand Star Wars at all

[@willfanofmanyii3751]

Reminder that in ROTS, the VFX team wanted moments of Anakin lifting Mustafar rivers of lava and hurling them at Obi-Wan. Lucas rejected that idea, as he didn't want the force to just be superpower spamming without a limit.

[@yodaedits416]

Legit when obi wan boulder spammed at Vader in Ep 6, I rolled my eyes

[@kkocicakk]

@@yodaedits416 But it looked cool. Stupid, but cool.

[@yodaedits416]

@@kkocicakk The fight was great up until that point imo

[@mr.stuffdoer8483]

Lucas worked on TCW, right? Y’know, that show where Anakin rapidly spun the entirety of Mortis, the children shapeshifted, Anakin _ressurected_ Ahsoka, etc…

[@willfanofmanyii3751]

@@mr.stuffdoer8483 You mean that arc with the literal force gods, that had been living for thousands of years with the force, that their strength is no reason to be questioned. The same arc were Anakin was allowed to use his full potential for just a moment (Anakin didn't spin the planet, lol).

[@Soccercrazyigboman]

The force has become pretty much a get out of jail card for Disney writers when they write themselves into a corner. It gives characters third person knowledge of the plot to move it forward, scales inconsistently when the plot demands it, and pulls out abilities whenever it is needed. Even when there's no logical progression.

[@danielloader3351]

exactly, it's no longer a mystical power that people must train to discover and control. Now it's a macguffin that exists to further the plot

[@pumkin610]

The force lets Rey do anything lol. If only we could get some star wars the clone wars writers to redo the rey movies, I'm sure they could make her great

[@scorchlicious1727]

huh, it's almost as if the Force has ALWAYS been a plot device to advance the damn plot

[@nasis18]

A macguffan.

[@somersault1123]

If only Disney writers could write themselves into a corner. They don't write nearly enough to even accomplish that. Instead it's just a lazy plot convenience that allows them to keep the films short and add special effects. Shall I plot something or draw up some interesting character drama? Nah. Just get the spark machine running and we'll keep this under 1h20m.

[@CommanderCourage]

Three lines that define the sequel trilogy: “That’s not how the Force works!” “Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.” “Somehow Palpatine returned.”

[@Padtedesco]

Perfect.

[@FTChomp9980]

You forget Finn's most famous line: "REYYYYYYYYYY!" Seriously I'm still pissed how Disney treated both Finn and Boyeaga.

[@Hanoua2]

"I need someone, to show me my place in all of this".

[@regishel]

And "They fly now!? They fly now!"

[@RevanMartinez]

Let the Sequel Trilogy Die. Kill it if you have to

[@manamaster6]

I really like the idea of training being the way to reach a master-level, otherwise it feels unearned. Anakin was the chosen one, yet, he had to train for years before being competent.

[@11Survivor]

In the original trilogy and prequel trilogy, the midichlorians showcased potential, not ability. The sequels threw that out...

[@KaaneDragonShinobi]

@@11Survivor I never liked the concept of midichlorians if I'm honest. Having a hard cap on what a character can do because their midi count is shit, or a limitation on who can be trained even to do minor things with the Force. But I guess it would break the story otherwise unless it was a sequel thing where the Force began showing up in more people as it rose from relative dormancy in a time of existential crisis. Like y'know, if "The Force Awakened."

[@glov433]

We also saw him get his ass handed to him a fair bit. Which again shows his development over time. Even if he had unmatched potential and was "the chosen one" he was totally fallible, same as Luke was in the originals. Never had that sense in the sequels even for a moment.

[@Zlittlepenguin]

@@glov433 exactly. Even though we don’t really SEE anakin train on screen, we can still ASSUME that he is, in fact, training. It’s actually summed up BRILLIANTLY at the end of episode 2 and the beginning of episode 3 where in episode 2, anakin is so impulsive and overconfident when he fights count, that he loses a limb and nearly dies right on the spot. Even though he does perform a little better than his master because of his natural abilities, it’s made very clear that he has a long way to go emotionally and physically… which we see straight after right at the start of episode 3 where - even though we don’t see the time between the movies - we can tell that he’s matured a great deal and has gained a lot of experience and strength. And it’s kind of the lesson that Disney got wrong with Rey in episode 9. Yes, the fans were pissed that she had all this power despite not training a day in her life, but most if not all of that criticism would have gone away if we could have just watched her FAIL at SOMETHING.

[@manamaster6]

@Greg Elchert if the prequels had followed the structure of the sequels, Anakin would have defeated Dooku on the second movie without much effort after believing in himself. The existence of Darth Vader would have been the result of Anakin's boredom, as he wouldn't have had any other reason to change, having achieved full power right in the middle of his growth arc.

[@elisabethtommasi5938]

It's the little things that I miss. There's this small scene in the Thrawn trilogy that I like a lot, in which Leia is not able to switch off the light with the Force. She's going through a lot and is really tired and behind on her training and just can't activate that switch with the force, so she has to stand up and do it by hand. Later (mild spoiler I guess) there's this scene in which she is able to Force-activate a switch at the right time, and I'm just so proud of her, for such a little insignificant thing❤ And what is even better, she is able to save the day through that - nothing big, no grandiose Force gesture, just a small thing that she had struggled to do before

[@christopher3226]

Such a good scene. That trilogy is so good. With Mara and Thrawn and Talon Karrde who was the original Hondo. Such a fantastic Star Wars story and hooked me into reading Legends over anything new (Except for the new Thrawn series).

[@Iron-Bridge]

That trilogy was so good. One of my favorite reading memories as a teenager. Timothy Zahn kept things fresh but also wrote in grounded callbacks that were plausible based on the original trilogy. And Mara Jade, Thrawn, Pellaeon and Talon Kardde were great additions. Concepts like the ysalimiri Force negators and the Joruus C'baoth clone felt fresh to me.

[@hllj2793]

How the fuck can one feel proud of a fictional character

[@robartlum]

Great books.

[@HazardRoz]

but in disney SW she is capable to breath on open space XD

[@Kurayamiblack]

The thing that killed me about the scene with the rocks in the Kenobi show was that Obi-Wan looked like he had to put effort into using the Force with almost everything he did in this fight, but then suddenly lifts all those massive boulders with arms wide open and not 1 sign of stress in his body language. It completely felt out of place from the rest of the battle.

[@thegame346]

You very much were not able to read into the montage of images Obi-Wan had while trapped under the rocks, nor do you understand how agents of the lightside harness their power.

[@OmegaRC59]

While watching, I joked to my brother that the rocks must be made of foam or something because they made an equivalently light impact against Vader. Seriously, rocks that big would smash his armor and all of his bones to bits, and yet he took it like a mild discomfort

[@11Survivor]

@@OmegaRC59 My interpretation was that the last fight was Obi Wan finally letting the force take over. In a sense, what we saw was no longer Obi Wan, but the actual Force itself using his body as an avatar in that moment. And then I'm pretty sure Vader shielded himself with the Force because Rocks don't usually crumble when they hit someone. This relates to the dichotomy between the light and the dark : the light side's philosophy is to let the force flow through you whilst the dark side bends the force to their will through sheer stubborness.

[@Kurayamiblack]

@@thegame346 Look, all I'm trying to say is that was a degree of force proficiency I've never seen from Obi-Wan even in his prime. The closest thing was the Senate battle between Yoda and Palpating in Ep3 and even then they stuck to 1 or 2 huge objects at a time. I get that Obi-Wan had a spiritual breakthrough after Vader buried him and he tapped into uninhibited power. I'm just saying it still shouldn't look so completely effortless. Even Yoda scrunches his face a bit when wielding that kind of power. In this scene it feels like he's just saying "So I'm jesus now, who knew?". But if you want to recommend me a book so I can study Jedi light side 101 so I can get a scene the show never explains, fine. Drop the title here and I'll read it up I suppose.

[@gachaperson3774]

@@Kurayamiblack I honestly chalk it up to one of 2 things either obi wan used the dark side at that moment or the one that I believe even more is that he used his positive emotions to basically do what the sith do with anger and fear

[@fennec812]

I’d say that “power creep” really ought to be more about shifting perspectives on the Force rather than huge cinematic feats of strength. I’ve always understood the Force as something similar to a martial art. In that sense, there are restrictions, but also a lot of room for specialization as well. I think it’s within reason that some Force users learn to apply their abilities in very specific ways and essentially become specialists. But you’d also expect them to be less amazing in other areas because specialization requires time-a finite resource. If Force healing, Force projection, combat applications, etc. were all explained as “schools of thought” that your average Jedi really can only devote themselves to about two of, fine. Maybe really powerful/talented people can go as far as three or four, but the idea that being strong in the Force means you have access to literally everything is… odd? A lot of people are born with crazy genetics, for example. They are big and strong, but that doesn’t necessarily make them great fighters or craftsmen or really anything. Yes, they have a natural predisposition for success there, but without hours invested, you’re “just” strong. To me, that’s what being strong in the Force is and the whole reason why kids were specifically taken as kids to be Jedi (aside from the whole attachments idea). It’s to allow for as much time as possible to sharpen the blunt natural power into a specialized tool. In Disney-era Star Wars, basically what is being said is that just being born special is enough. In fact, it’s sort of everything. I think this is what the new Obi Wan failed with, too. Obi Wan is so cool to many not because he’s brutally powerful. His mastery is really from his training rather than just overwhelming natural gifts. He’s a tactical fighter who understands his limits, his opponents, and how to leverage them. That comes from training, I’ve never gotten the sense that Obi Wan becomes as amazing a Jedi as he is without Quigon and other mentors. Yet, in a straight fight with Vader I sincerely doubt he could win. The prequels handled this by explaining his victory as mostly a result of Anakin’s overestimation of himself being leveraged against him. Obi Wan never really overpowered him. And this is why, for me, that Obi Wan series duel fell so flat… there is simply no way Obi Wan beats Vader in a straight up fight, imo. Didn’t mean for this to turn into such an essay, but it’s definitely irksome that Disney just sort of sees connection to the Force as something you’re immediately good at rather than a natural characteristic that has to be honed. Really, we should have seen Rey getting whooped a lot more in the early trilogy than she was or, at the very least, having found a master out of the gate. Hell, I would have been fine with her “natural talent” being that she can vaguely communicate with Force ghosts and that’s the catalyst for her getting stronger with the Force-through their tutelage that she, probably at first, writes off as her going insane or something idk. Anything better than “I wake up and invent powers literally never seen before.”

[@shrimp562]

In canon obiwan almost didn't even get picked as a Padawan because of his skills

[@cardellkenith]

What kind of matches with the schools of thought you mention is their saber fighting styles where they kind of already exist. Obi wan is a master of a defensive style, who h is why in his duel with anakin in 3, he's almost always the one moving backwards. And mace windu is an extraordinary fighter amongst the Jedi because he's the only known Jedi that uses that form, as the rest all died or fell to the dark side, meaning his style is something not many will have experience defending against. So they can apply this specialisation to combat forms and styles, but not to the force? It just feels lazy at that point.

[@shinkamui]

i'm fine with huge cinematics feat of strenght, *if they're few and far between*. Take the original avatar series for example. We don't see amazing huge feats of raw bending prowess often, but when we do is through flashbacks of previous avatars shaping the land in one way or another, not for petty reasons and surely not trivially. And because it's so rare, mostly in the past, we get this interesting awe in seeing them, and they don't take away from the spirituality and mysticism of bending, much to the contrary imo. They shine as our unnatainable ideal far on the horizon. watching it feels like watching a rare event in world's history In star wars, its getting to a point where we see one in every movie and every disney + serie. And that severely lessens the significance of an impressive feat for sure. It's totally becoming meaningless at this point. Every time disney wants a character to feel impressive they just make them lift a lot of rocks lol. And when we see an impressive feat not based around lifting rocks, they barely bring any atention to it. Like in the last jedi, i'd argue luke's projection was possibly the most impressive thing we've ever seen ever, and nothing in the movie made it seem like anyone was aware of just how great that was. Even the movie doesn't feel aware. They bring our atention to the shots passing through him but not the extent of the sheer magnitude of the projection itself through space good enough to trick life scans. But the camera and music were all heroic when rey did lift those damn rocks at the end

[@dedf15]

So, a What If? Series where Rey is Christine, and Plagueis is the Phantom of the Opera?

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

They could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by stranding Rey with a Jedi who maybe was training her and gets killed or for some reason doesn’t want her to leave the planet or whatever and she defies him/her for reasons maybe half trained so that an power displays feel like they could have come from somewhere instead of ‘I suddenly know how to do a Jedi mind trick even tho I have never heard of one before and have no concept of using the force.

[@robertluna5737]

It still makes me laugh to think about Rey holding a lightsaber for the first time ever besting Kylo who was trained by Luke Skywalker himself. The absurdity of it just boggled my mind at the time. That fight would have ended in twenty seconds with Rey being rendered to pieces. But Rey doesn’t need a personality, she’s just awesome, and that’s when I realized Disney Star Wars is hollow and devoid of creativity.

[@emberfist8347]

Honestly I am suprised she is was able to stand so soon after getting knocked out. I thought she would have a broken spine after that or maybe internal bleeding.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@emberfist8347 Yep. Needed some realism but nope

[@jasonsylvander3089]

Bestest evaaarrrrr

[@jaieregilmore971]

Really shows the writers can’t write a female main protagonist.

[@TankHunter678]

Hell, Kylo could of just did some force push spam and kept knocking Rey out. Sure she could resist a mind probe but she was still untrained in the force so she would not be able to stop force push. You know, like when Kylo knocked her out the first time before Finn got a competency spike and was able to use his stormtrooper training to use in trying to defend against Kylo who toyed with him.

[@FTChomp9980]

The Force means nothing in the Sequel Trilogy era at least in the OT and the Prequels certainly added more to the lore side of things. The Sequel Trilogy basically took the Force and basically went full on creative mode!

[@Hero_Of_Old]

I wouldn't say creative. They just made it like magic or Marvel crap.

[@FTChomp9980]

@Gandalf The Grey had to go for a Minecraft reference at least.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@Hero_Of_Old 💯. They MCU’d it

[@randalthekidd7006]

@@Hero_Of_Old not even magic, literally just plot armor in the form of a power

[@Del-Dokan]

@@BrakSplash Not to mention Force Unleashed with Starkiller literally controlling a STAR DESTROYER.

[@judechauhan6715]

We almost forget that in episode 2 and the entirety of 'The Clone Wars' as you mentioned at 1:23 Often Jedi would be bested in combat or matched by non force sensitive users and many MANY times we saw Jedi dying to overwhelming opponents or just fewer skilled opponents such as in the arena battle on Geonosis where Yoda and the new Clone army has to come to the rescue of the few remaining Jedi not killed by the Geonosions and Droids. Jedi are not invincible. Force users, however powerful are not invincible. During the clone wars series we see Jedi mow through droids and opponents but still ultimately fall where some of the older ones struggle but the newer ones knighted during the war became real fighting machines. The Jedi were essentially monks, excellent discipline and skill but not built for war. This is why we see so many casualties despite them wiping out entire droid legions they eventually fall because the force is a pathway to many abilities some on the dark side deemed unnatural. It's not trolls blood.

[@spartansquid5931]

EDIT: I has stoopid and thought you were talking about the animated show and not literally just the clone wars. Yeah but TCW also f's with the limits and workings of the force a lot anyway, Mortis? the Whills? Hello? If we're taking the entirety of CW and Rebels into consideration they work way more against this video's point than in favor of it.

[@TheZonecaptain]

This video only constraints within the movies, if you look at any of the books, comics or games (that’s canon non EU) what obiwan did was a small measure of what the Jedi can do. Obiwan was always a better duelist than a force user

[@sigmacademy]

@@TheZonecaptain The canon means nothing (in the eyes of new Star Wars 'fans'). Which begs the question, what do they think are being created in the books, comics, games and films RIGHT now? And can we ignore that as much as they are ignoring original canon? Oh, right. The all new, all (25%) different, all improved modern canon that has been politically vetted to be 100% PC. :/

[@manamaster6]

Great explanation. This reminded me of Durge or Grievous, who managed to best Jedi masters without being force-sensitive. Or that episode in which Kit Fisto's newly-knighted Padawan was killed by Grievous due to his hubris and lack of training.

[@spartansquid5931]

@Purple Emerald Mortis still occurred and has ancient immortal transcendental beings representing different stages of balance that contradict George's view of the force that can forcefully turn people to the darkside and show them their entire future despite the future apparently always being in motion, and the Whills open an entire can of worms with how the force works and it's origins that Disney will never have the balls to pick up and actually explain. How you don't immediately see the issue with these two things existing I will never know.

[@BloodRaisin]

One of the weirdest power inconsistencies for me was Ahsoka and the lady with the spear in the fancy garden in the mandalorian. Usually when people beat a Jedi, or go toe to toe, they have tech to augment them. Ahsoka could have just used the force to take the spear away from her. I feel like Jedi should be able to beat any non force wielder in hand to hand or sword combat.

[@lauren1211]

Exactly! Especially with how much training and experience Ahsoka has, I expected her to mop the floor with the lady with the spear. (I forget what her name was)

[@emberfist8347]

If you feel that tell that to Grievous he would love to hear it. Also Ahsoka still only has Padawan level training.

[@paolopesare3566]

@@emberfist8347 Ahsoka is not padawan level after the Clone Wars. If She didn't leave the order she would have been a knight Just like Anakin. In season 7 She was powerful enough to defeat Maul.

[@emberfist8347]

@@paolopesare3566 The Clones defeated Maul.

[@Daniel-ll2cl]

I have no problem with ashoka giving her the opportunity for a honourable duel and not immediately killing or force pushing her but they made her get disarmed by a random woman with a spear? She fought against vader but got disarmed by a non force user who wasnt even that good?

[@daniell1483]

The Force went from a fairly mild set of abilities in Episodes 1-6, then 7-9 the Force exploded into, essentially, magic. Reality defying abilities that can be used if you just so happen to have the right bloodline. The power creep was real and it was extreme. The scene where Rey lifted tons of boulders in The Last Jedi was the point where I realized the filmmakers simply did not understand the mechanics they were using. I like the comparison between Jedi and superheroes; Jedi are not supposed to be superheros on the same level as Superman or Magneto, period.

[@tyronedavis3534]

That's literally what the force is space magic

[@Tmzu]

I disagree with you, in the older movies I always felt they were limited with CGI what they could do with the force. That’s why it was so mild. In the novels or maybe even in Clone Wars they do all kinds of crazy stuff with the force and that’s before Disney took over.

[@daniell1483]

@@Tmzu Well if you are looking at Legends stuff, sure, but there is a good explanation for it. The ancient Sith tended to be far more potent than their "Sith Order" counterparts. Palpatine's biggest Force feat is using Force Lightning; compare this to, say, Darth Nihilus draining an entire planet of its life. This is a well known and understood element of the lore as the Sith old and new both think themselves superior to the other. The SIth Order for achieving what the ancient Sith never could and the ancient Sith dogging the Sith Order for being, relatively, weak.

[@MIDMAN.]

The force was never mild

[@adamjanek3511]

@@daniell1483 You don't have to go to legends to see OP use of the force, you can just watch the clone wars

[@thisguydan]

The issue is Disney doesn't understand the distinction between The Force, which is more spiritual in nature which gives it greater meaning, and Marvel super powers. Hence, why The Force under Disney feels less spiritual, and just seems to be super powers that they're pumping up to make Jedi and Sith more like Marvel super heroes.

[@funkydiscogod]

Gotta make what sells.

[@erikvarela2045]

The sad thing is that the very first D-era movie--Rogue One--is actually the closest and it's like they willfully ignore that they got it right the first time around.

[@cryxbaby2250]

I agree, they just fundamentally dont understand the franchise.

[@Del-Dokan]

The only new interesting force power they introduced was the force "long distance calling" that Rey and Kylo had. Sure they ruined it a bit with Snoke being so powerful enough to mysteriously bridge their minds but I'm sure with better writing it wouldn't have been a problem. As is I'd say its cool "conceptually".

[@anthonycincotta9105]

They understand it just fine. They just do not care. It's completely irrelevant to their agenda and narrative.

[@thefreshestslice4105]

This is what you get when someone gets a glancing knowledge of the MCU and realizes how popular Marvel movies are. Everything needs to be bigger. Bigger means better. It's so exciting and it's so cool. I wouldn't even have a problem with this within itself, even though it does largely remove stakes when you have Vader, for instance, taking on a thousand Rebels at once. The problem is these fights don't mean anything anymore, and I don't know why I should care about them. They're just spectacle at this point.

[@achaudhari101]

So you do have a problem with Vader slaughtering people because it’s not stake worthy. Just don’t lie please.

[@thefreshestslice4105]

@@achaudhari101 Vader killing random people is dumb because Vader doesn't just go around randomly killing people. He's cold and methodological. Killing random people because I-am-so-Evil is how Disney sees villains.

[@randalthekidd7006]

@@achaudhari101 😂 I think it’s because it’s shitty writing that never fits with any part of the world. Like he is around many less than 1000 people all the time and never had that level of domination. Because that’s stupid Superman bullshit, the cool thing about Vader is he will dominate you while walking slowly, talking shit, and revealing hidden truths about yourself until you are mentally and physically overpowered. Not just “Der 1000 rebel troopers can fucking shoot for shit because Vader is the main character of this comic” Like it was way better when he was fighting the exiled Jedi master who beat the shit out of a weakened Vader. And then Vader uses manipulation and power to beat him. Not just plot armor, that’s pure Disney Star Wars garbage

[@randalthekidd7006]

@@achaudhari101 and even in kenobi it’s fucking dumb, it’s the most clear example of a director going “well he’s evil he needs to do something evil” It’s the opposite of the creators of Peaky blinders who know not to even fire a bullet that isn’t because of a specific action and has consequences of being fired.

[@achaudhari101]

@@thefreshestslice4105 He's supposed to be a villain that doesn't care about anyone and you're acting like that's a bad thing.

[@thomas8431]

The power creep happened in Legends, too. And I'd add Luke projecting himself across the entire galaxy, walking around on another planet, interacting with thousands of people, droids, and computers that read his life signs as fully "there" was pretty insane and far more impressive than lifting rocks. The problem with Rey, in addition to her all around horrible writing, was the speed with which she got her powers. It was absurd and made her thoroughly unlikable. Couple that with the intentional nerfing of Luke, the direct negation of everything accomplished in the original 6 movies, and a plot made of a series of awkwardly cascading retcons and hilarious contrivances and you've got the endless hole that Disney Lucasfilm is still trying to dig their way out of.

[@sigmacademy]

If memory still serves me correctly, I recall the original "writers room" was pretty much exclusively female, with some writers not having been active in the industry for YEARS, while others came from female-orientated dramas/sitcoms, and ZERO experience in writing sci-fi or having a single sci-fi minded writer on in the writer's room. Despite the fact that other, older female writers have been in the sci-fi genre for DECADES at that point - for some unknown reason THAT particular group of people was the best they could assemble. Oh, and the rumor is corporate owners of the franchise AREN'T digging themselves out of that hole (that would be bad optics for them) - they just decided they would make that hole bigger and set up shop in there to service the subterranean continent down there of a supposedly larger and more profitable phantom audience down there. :/

[@aetherstarborn168]

why is it a problem for there to be powerful characters what about all the ones from legends and even Revan who is now cannon? you have a problem with Revan just cause he was naturally powerful? I don't think any of you actually read legends yall are so ignant to say that this "Power Creep" bs even exists its completely based on a ridiculous opinion that people like you have for some reason as if your the ones who created SW, I feel bad fpr yall cause your ruining your own expereince just cause you think characters cant achieve more through the force which its been clear from the start and in legends they can

[@byletheisner5006]

@@aetherstarborn168 I have played the game with Revan, he feels powerful but is not anything remotely near what you see in Disney Star Wars, same thing for other force users such as Bane, Zannah or Nihilus.

[@CdrChaos]

Rey was able to pull Jedi Master level powers out of thin air with zero training. She just taught herself the mind trick, could overcome Kylo Ren’s mind reading, and could also beat his Force Pull to take Anakin’s lightsaber. It makes sense that she would be powerful since she’s a Palpatine, but the absolute lack of training while having so much power is what doesn’t work at all.

[@sparemobius7430]

@@byletheisner5006 are you kidding, Nihilus literally ate planets, he used the force to snuff out all life and absorb it to feed his ever growing hunger. Dude was OP levels of power. Likewise Sion was so angry he refused to die, he held his own body together through sheer anger, malice, and force of will, dude was immortal until you "convince" him his views are wrong and he then seeks death and allows himself to die. Story wise these two are both insane, when you fight them in game though, Nihilus was kinda underwhelming and Sion was... well okay he was kinda hard if you didnt realize you were supposed to talk him down, he would just keep resetting the fight over and over until you get a good roll on persuasion basically. So yes if you don't look into the story bits, they could be perceived as weaker, but story wise these two are possibly the strongest sith we have seen in modern media, not counting Vitiate, that guy is basically just meaner Palpatine, seriously dude makes ole paps look almost nice, still sneaky and underhanded, but nice in comparison at least he didn't torture his own mom for months right?

[@undecidedgenius]

My opinion is you can have the most powerful beings imagined, but if the hero is there to save everyone, why have the rest of the cast Luke needed his friends as much as they needed him...it never changed throughout the first 3 movies (starting with star wars) Han and Luke tried rescuing Leah only to have Leah figure out a plan to rescue them....after that they needed to be rescued by the Droids. Every person had a talent that helped out the group and at no point did you feel like that one person could do it all The next movies were about one person but even then Anakin needed help...it ended up that he seeked out help from the wrong person

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

Luke didn't even win by being powerful; he won by making himself helpless--and proving that he wasn't the last of the Jedi. This, while waiting for the rest of the Rebels to destroy the station, and they in turn needed help from the strike team on the ground--who then needed help from the Ewoks, who needed their help in return! That is one big cooperative effort, masterfully represented. Conversely, Anakin's journey in the Prequels is about feeling he HAS to do it alone--and when he can't, he doesn't turn to the people who would help him willingly; he makes a deal with the devil, and makes himself beholden.

[@jedenzet]

LEIA* FOR FUCKS SAKE

[@stefannico]

Good analysis. I distingtly remember, that Obi Wan had to concentrate for a brief moment to make a high jump in the Phantom Menace, during the fight against Maul. That felt logical based on Earth-like physics, where acceleration and the mass is a factor. Lifting an X-Wing was hard. Holding a huge metal piller was insanely hard. Thats why I was so baffled when Rey liftet those massive boulders like they were nothing, even smiling while doing so. Its felt broken.

[@QuestionMan]

Goes back to the question of why EVERY Jedi fight wasn't just a series of combatants ripping lightsabers out of each other's hands. The Disney SW writers just don't understand (and don't seem to care about) the physics within the SW universe.

[@sebulbathx]

They don't care which in turn makes them not bother with doing their homework. There is no honor in being a Jedi anymore since everyone can become one or so it seems in Disney Star Wars.

[@waxrepine1298]

Loads of people said how good it was the flash back of obi wan and anakin was... The moment I saw it I hated it. Because the amount of cannon breaking the simple act of yeeting someone's weapon out of their hand is... Oh you have 4 light sabers grevious... Now you have none... And he isn't even a force user! Even thinking about it now... At no point ROTS did either of them think to yoink the other ones light saber in their final Battle... Surely there would have been no fight between luke and vader... Your no jedi yet... See I have your lightsaber to prove it. Disney is just fanfic to me

[@QuestionMan]

@@waxrepine1298 Exactly. There are reasons (while not technically canon anymore) for why force-users can't go around turning off or yoinking lightsabers willy-nilly. While it "could" be stretched in the case of the flashback training scene by saying that Anakin's myopic obsession with winning made him vulnerable to disarming, it seems like there's way too much of it going on in the Disneyverse. Maybe it's another new force power: "the Force-yoink."

[@waxrepine1298]

@@QuestionMan I think what's even more frustrating about that scene is that it's actually a nice bit of story telling having them recount a past battle/training and showing that anakin hasn't learnt anything in the present. Don't get me wrong with that either, it's still the fact it's kenobi and vader cheeses me off! I wonder how good Rey's 'force yoink' ability is? I'm trying not to let my mind wonder to wondering who has the best 'force pull' aayla secura or darth tallon?

[@cathygrandstaff1957]

My theory is that force users instinctively protect themselves and what they’re holding from other force users. So you can’t yeet someone’s weapon because they’re holding onto it with the force, and you can’t force choke another force user, or as someone at Cracked suggested force squeeze their balls because they can cancel out the attack. Even using the force to throw boulders at another force user just gives them the opportunity to catch the object and throw it back as long as their ability is strong enough which is why Jedi duel with lightsabers instead of throwing random objects.

[@Arkaelov]

One of the craziest and most telling things about all of this is even Star Wars Visions, a bunch of one off anime episodes taking place in Star Wars, generally seemed to have a better grasp on the force and had it more toned down than the Sequel Trilogy (aside from The Twins, which was just over the top to be over the top). This fact blows my mind because anime almost by definition is bombastic and has so much more flare than standard media, and yet some of the best Star Wars Visions episodes were toned down to Prequel and OT levels of force usage and strength. The fact that a bunch of studios in Japan given a brief moment with the Star Wars universe did more justice with the force than an entire trilogy befuddles me to this day.

[@TankHunter678]

The difference is the level of respect to the property they are working with. A lot of anime is bombastic and has so much flare because the writers went with that direction, you also see a lot of anime where things are heavily subdued, it all depends on the wishes of the original creator and how they described things.

[@peterkrochmalni673]

The makers of The Twins were the makers of Kill la Kill a show that was also so over the top, and that’s what makes it so fun.

[@peterkrochmalni673]

Not to mention that a lot of what makes Star Wars great is that it was also influenced by Japanese samurai movies. Who better to know more and respect Star Wars then the ones who helped influence it.

[@verindictus3639]

Japanese anime studios often show actual interest in studying and knowing the thing they are creating.

[@Jadty]

Japan ALWAYS wins.

[@cypher10]

The people that made the films were more worried about what looked cool, rather than what made sense. It's more about the spectacle in movies nowadays. They also probably aren't fans of the world and lore. It's why they thought, oh, Palpatine used force lightning, so Rey can use force lightning because she's his granddaughter. It's obviously genetic, and has nothing to do with Sith training at all.

[@adampeel6161]

Exactly the same in Obi-Wan Kenobi. Vader can now stop a ship from leaving. Obi-Wan can lift a mountain of rocks and launch them like it was nothing. Oooh so cool!

[@sigmacademy]

@@adampeel6161 Vader stopping a ship is only because Starkiller could LITERALLY Force Pull a Star Destroyer into the ground in the game The Force Unleashed. Which while it looked cool at the time it was shown, makes little logical sense when the world you have created have Force users with limits placed on their powers. If a GROUP of Force users tried doing it, yes, that would make sense, because you have COMBINED Force users POOLING their Force Abilities and Powers for magnified effect, while having a deeper meaning as well.

[@dspprince]

Man, everything you talked about in this video, about how the Force correctly worked in the Original & Prequel Trilogies(I also include Clone Wars), and how it became broken in the Sequel Trilogy is the reason why I hate and just can't accept the Sequel Trilogy, because nothing in it is earned, just spoon-fed.

[@hermanossaldivia]

You haven't really read the old canon, do ya? Because there we have Windu killing thousands of battle droids barehanded, Luke creating Black holes with the force, Yoda moving ships and a whole army of droidekas with the force, characters using force speed everywhere, Sidious creating force storms with the power to destroy entire star destroyers, and Nihilus eating planets with the force

[@dspprince]

@@hermanossaldivia I'm aware of the EU/Legends stuff, in fact I have almost all of them. But what I mentioned above is what George Lucas made. Besides, even in EU/Legends, at least the explanations for the powers were better, even if they were so over-the-top. And I can buy Yoda and Mace Windu doing what they did because they were full-fledged high ranking Jedi masters with decades(centuries for Yoda) of experience and power building. Also I can totally buy Luke Skywalker doing the impossible because he inherited the Chosen One's power, and the Gods of Mortis revealed that the Chosen One is potentially the most powerful being in the universe.

[@hermanossaldivia]

@@dspprince i agree that Rey's powers don't make sense and don't feel earned, Kylo at least had Jedi training and dark side training. But the Jedi were objectively stronger in the old canon, with Vader being an exception because Canon Vader is stronger and is constantly doing legends level of stuffs in the canon comics and novels. The reason behind the difference between the power of both versions of the Jedi could be that in legends the jedi had to constantly deal with fallen/dark Jedi (like Xanatos) while canon Jedi were basically at peace through most of the republic era

[@hermanossaldivia]

@@dspprince if we're talking about power earned i agree with you, if we're talking about power and strength, legends is normally far stronger than canon (canonVader is the exception to the rule)

[@jaredsession0507]

The thing about the force is that it’s always been inconsistent . You have guys like vader who can pull a ship out there sky and rip it to shreds one minute yet can’t force push a door the next. It all depends on the characters emotional state as well as the writers and the context of the situation . Nihilus for instance is able to life wipe entire planets with relative ease so it’s not absurd to think palpatine, the most powerful Sith Lord in history is able to zap the entire resistance fleet with lighting. In legends and comics the force feats are ludicrous . However i do agree with the points made about Rey. Her power level makes zero sense .

[@liamsalb620]

Tbf I wouldn’t call Palpatine the “strongest sith” far from it. There were plenty before and probably some after who were much stronger than palpatine.

[@johantoribio2207]

palpatine was not the strongest but the most successful

[@jaredsession0507]

@@liamsalb620 per the rule of two, each generation of Sith is stronger than the previous. Darth Bane is confirmed to be stronger than every Sith prior to the rule of two which means he scales above them. Each Bane era Sith is stronger than their predecessors so in canon and most of legends, sidious is the most powerful Sith

[@liamsalb620]

@@jaredsession0507 yes that’s what the rule of two is supposed to be. But in reality it’s always been different. You never knew if a master died from disease, poison, old age. It’s hard to know how much everything changed.

[@blazecrep7849]

Nihilus, for its nature, doesn't count in the list. Why? He was a injury in the force (whatever that means, sorry if I'm mistaken) meaning that is more an anomaly than the rule.

[@Alec11_43]

Oh yeah, now I remember, there was an “awakening”(as opposed to a “disturbance”) mentioned by Snoke in TFA that wasn’t ever truly explained since Rey hadn’t really used the Force at that point of the film. Oh well, just add it to the list of things completely dropped/negated in the sequel trilogy, especially when it comes to things relating to Snoke.

[@eddardstark6554]

Haha, that’s a LOOOONG list. I watched TFA about a year ago because my father-in-law wanted to watch it as a casual fan (though he HATES TLJ and how Luke was treated in the sequels). Anyways, it dawned on me just how horrible and inconsistent this trilogy/story turned out to be, as there are SO many unanswered questions and plots that should have been explored deeper before Ruin Johnson got his greasy hands on episode 8.

[@Angel-mm2bz]

@@eddardstark6554 JJ's Mystery Boxes

[@eddardstark6554]

@@Angel-mm2bz yep. I don’t mind mystery box storytelling as long as there’s sensical PAYOFF - something JJ seems to forget. But TFA is a dumpster fire in retrospect. However, the fans on KZbin and Reddit were going crazy with awesome theories about how this mystery box could have been unraveled. What a time to be a Star Wars fan that was. The hype was awesome. Then we found out it was all cheap smoke and mirrors.

[@sigmacademy]

@@eddardstark6554 Don't worry. The company will just get substandard, cheap writers to plug those "many unanswered questions and plots" in novels and comics, and in effect, create even MORE cracks in the dam wall. I've heard only 2 of the writers of their novels are any good, and the rest are either loathed or generally ignored because of their lack of knowledge of Star Wars in general or because of bad setups and payoffs. I've personally only read Phasma and while I like to poke fun at it (it ACTUALLY quotes Phasma as a "war goddess"), it's still more consistent than the WHOLE Sequel Trilogy combined, plus the level of writing doesn't deserve the prize it got because the story was pretty simplistic and offered no philosophical ideas or the kind of writing that usually wins prizes. Still, I give the female writer credit because at least she DID decide to keep the story logical and give Phasma a plausible reason for being a good fighter and someone who was willing to link up with the First Order in the first place, even if the overarching story linking the flashbacks were quite repetitive and unnecessary. :/

[@eddardstark6554]

@@sigmacademy I absolutely loved Phasma after TFA and I was very interested in her backstory. Some fans had some pretty cool theories of her origin and possible setup in future films. I was planning on purchasing and reading Phasma after TLJ came out, but I never did because I couldn’t stand the sequels after that. Ruin Johnson intentionally destroyed any potential she had. I feel bad for the actress playing her - she was great as Breanne of Tarth in GoT. *edit: but yes, Kathleen Kennedy can’t decipher a good writer from a woke bad one with an eye rolling agenda. It’s all political to her which is a damn shame. I trusted her at first, as did George, since she was involved so much in previous installments. Then she went femi-n**i on the franchise by claiming that the Force is female for some nonsensical reason.

[@SuperSupersoda]

I find it cool that as much as Anakin had his issues, when Luke tells Yoda In Empire that he wants to be a Jedi because of his father, Yoda has enough respect for who Anakin was to reply: "Your father? Hmm....powerful Jedi was he, powerful Jedi." Beyond that, I think your point about turning SW into a superhero franchise is on point, it explains so much about how Rey got her powers so quickly, and had no learning curve at all. I also think Rey being a self-insert for KK naturally moved it into more of a super-hero direction. I think this is the mantra is "try to bring in new fans, because the old fans will always show up." No, they won't, SW is fundementally different from a superhero franchise. One other thing: Back in the silver age of Marvel Comics, a point of emphasis was that every superhero in the Marvel Universe could defend themselves even if they suddenly lost their powers, which happens A LOT in superhero comics. The reason was that in Silver Age Marvel Comics, every single superhero was trained in survival techniques and hand-to-hand combat by Captain America.

[@sigmacademy]

Well, that plays nicely into some films and series teaching magic users to not be reliant on making magic do everything for them and forgetting how to do things the old fashion way (such as making something with your hands, as opposed to simply willing it into existence); on being able to function and protect themselves even when for some reason they no longer have the ability to use magic anymore, and why making sure your magic users are equipped with multiple ways of defending themselves is ALWAYS a good idea, even if it is to hire an armed escort/mercenary/companion to cover for their weaknesses.

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

James Marsden brought that up around X-Men 2, as well. The entire reason he has a fight scene in the holding cell is because he demanded to know why he needed to be in fighting shape if all he ever did was lift one hand.

[@aetherstarborn168]

look at what anakin did as a child and growing up, there are so many characters that got powerful probably faster then Rey what you people are saying makes 0 sense if you actually know SW, I dont know what yall dont get that some force users are literally chosen by the force to be more powerful

[@SuperSupersoda]

@@aetherstarborn168 I think Thor's point was that Anakin got more powerful through over a decade of serving an apprenticeship with Obi-wan and being trained. Rey got powerful all at once. The different ore powerful through over a decade of serving an apprenticeship with Obi-wan and being trained. Rey got powerful all at once. The difference between Jedis (Anakin) and superheroes (Rey).

[@DamianSzajnowski]

Yeaah but the old og ot fans are mostly old or dead, fewer and fewer of fans who got into sw from the prequels (of course still loving the ot but mostly gotten into sw by the prequels). To milk it, they needed a new direction and here we go, instead of a coherent sequel story we got a weird recap/anull/one-up of everything before. Instead of side stories, we have mostly incoherently written fan services. Direction - more, bigger, louder and superheroes sell, imo that's decently profitable from their point of view, at least if they had competent screenplay and writers.

[@josephharrison5639]

I feel Like force heal and stopping a blaster bolt midair were additions and power creep that made sense however yes, Rey learning all of this in a year at most is absurd. I mean I get the idea of trying to appeal to women, giving them a strong character however by saying she’s the first strong woman in Star Wars they basically gave young women an impossible god level person to look up to, not the down to earth examples of Leia and padme we had before. I feel like in trying to appeal to young women Disney made young girls feel isolated by presenting this “perfect” character

[@emberfist8347]

Not really a blaster bolt is an energy beam you can't do that to an energy beam. And force heal doesn't work as depicted as you can't heal a wound that is cauterized on impact like a lightsaber stab or blaster bolt.

[@TankHunter678]

Force Heal was ported over from video games, except when you look at the video games you can see that force healing was highly limited. It healed basic injuries, but never anything lethal. It could not bring people back from the dead and if someone was going to die it was useless. There were some Legends books with Force Healing but it was even more limited then the video game version, it was exhausting and more or less allowed them to stave off pain and help the body recover naturally only more accelerated. To put it another way even video game exaggerated force healing was insufficient for what Anakin wanted and therefore did not invalidate his motives for turning to the dark side. You even see him use force healing in the comics to save the life of an officer who risked his life to try to stop the force adept assassins going after Vader by using a flamethrower only for the flames to get force pushed back at the officer. Vader kept the burns from killing him and the officer was honorably discharged and sent back to his family, allowed to live by Palpatine because it would fuel Vader's self loathing that this horribly scarred and disabled man got to have the family that Vader himself never got. Disney took force healing from the video games and turned it up into a dev cheat. Able to literally bring back the dead, heal lethal wounds with ease, and completely invalidated Anakin's story.

[@Basilisk2077]

Force healing is the most dangerous and destructive ability that they’ve added to Star Wars.

[@ppsarrakis]

thats what little kids want,all the power with little effort if Rey did a 5-10 year training schedule with Luke on that island ,it would be too "boring"

[@thebaron2277]

Force healing has always existed but it was not instant and was only used by powerful consulars like Luminara Unduli. Force freeze is pretty cool and does make sense as a Force power

[@otakubullfrog1665]

You could tell that even Lucasfilm realized that they made Rey overpowered when they suddenly decided to make her Palpatine's granddaughter in The Rise of Skywalker to try and justify it somewhat. They could have done something with this like having it turn out that she was actually using the dark side, which was offering her tremendous power without training or discipline that would come with a horrible cost later, but there's no way that certain people wearing The Force is Female shirts were going to allow their feminist icon to be anything short of a paragon.

[@olimar7647]

You know, if she had somehow been pulling on the darkside all along, that might make for an interesting twist. Not sure how they could introduce that information in a way that made sense (narrativaly; the lore is already there), but if it could be pulled off, then yeah, that'd be an intriguing plot development to pursue.

[@jimbody1448]

So well said *chef's kiss*

[@erwinfelis4613]

Even if she was intuitively using the dark side that isn't even a good explanation. Even using those abilities would either require years of trial and error and experimenting or years of training by someone who has knowledge in those abilities.

[@JimJamTheAdmin]

@@erwinfelis4613 if they demand the resurrection of Palapatine, that suddenly becomes more feasible tho. If Palapatine had been like funneling part of his power through her or something and as a show of power he revokes his hidden gift and she has to fight him with the force and her own intuition or something. Like, both her and Kylo together are strong enough to beat him still after he drains them of his stored power. Which would add some level of explanation to the force diad.

[@erwinfelis4613]

@@JimJamTheAdmin In that scenario who would be controlling what is channeled through her? Rey or Palpatine? If Rey, she may have even more potential, but that still doesn't give her the knowledge to use the force. If Palpatine, then it's not really her doing anything extra.

[@samhui9517]

I saw A New Hope for the first time when I was 15 yrs old, and I was captivated by the concept of the Force, and Obi-wan’s explanation: “it is an energy field created by all living things that binds the galaxy together”. It is the source of a Jedi’s power, through training. This was such a fascinating mythology to me. It is shown throughout the OT and Prequels that it takes a lifetime of training to become attuned with the Force, and in so doing enhance one’s ability and senses, and it takes tremendous self control to not give in to that power and use it for one’s own selfish gains. That’s why Anakin never became a “master”. The problem with Disney Star Wars is that they have turned the Force into comic book super power, and someone without any training can just perform over the top feats effortlessly… an example of people unclear of the concept. I was pleasantly surprised to hear Luke’s statement in the Mandalorian: “Talent without training means nothing” and I’m slightly hopeful that Filoni’s vision of the Force would bring it back to its original concept.

[@Raygo.]

I agree completely... and yet the ludicrous "force-healing" power plays a significant part in _The Mandalorian._ Which I actually greatly enjoyed for the most part.

[@ThatVirginian]

the disney era lost the religious aspects of the jedi, to me that is why they fell to power creep. the treated them like space wizards instead of space monks.

[@viktorija.jankauskaite]

This!

[@Livelongwforce]

The force in the prequels felt like a natural pre-progression of an element that came from the ot. The force in the sequels was a reboot of the concept completely.

[@chasehedges6775]

💯💯💯💯

[@CaptainCoolzCT-]

The 'midichlorian' thing introduced in the Prequels sounds kinda odd at first, but it makes sense. It’s basically just a super-powered and symbiotic cell component that many beings in the galaxy naturally have (which is what Force Sensitivity is). Jedi and Sith train in the force to increase the strength of the force that is provided to them by the midichlorians, which is why characters such as Dooku could use enhanced force abilities, such as lightning or being able to choke people without even being in the same room - Dooku was quite old and experienced, and had trained his entire life to use Force abilities, as had Yoda (his old master) and Palpatine. Disney's Star Wars stuff is completely disconnected to that. Rey apparently just… always is at her full potential without having specifically trained in the force for a long time.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@CaptainCoolzCT- 💯💯

[@betterlatethannever4529]

I think the power creep in the Bane Trilogy was a good example of how to depict force power. It's not something you just start out op with. You slowly grow from small instances of being able to tap into. It also showed that the value of multiple people channeling it into another was one of the few ways op actions could be made. People forget that the only reason Anakin grew so quickly as a force user was his being the chosen one, and even he had years to train. Disney SW thinks that Anakin's talents are the standard and not the exception.

[@coryhellerer3425]

Love that trilogy!!!!

[@betterlatethannever4529]

@@coryhellerer3425 such a good series. I have to listen to it once a year just because of the story

[@onyxrose4349]

Episode 2 jumps a decade, so it's not even that unbelievable.

[@sigmacademy]

Well, you get the theory that the Chosen was never Anakin, or Luke, but possibly Leia or even better, Rey. This isn't true because Rey wasn't even part of the original trilogy, plus we know from George Lucas that his original idea was that the Skywalker Saga was a story being told by someone else after the events had happened - almost like a historical document covering important events based on this very brief period of time in this galaxy. My view on the Chosen One was that the Chosen One was always meant to either represent an ideology, as opposed to an individual, or that at least one individual in every generation had the potential to be the Chosen One. In Anakin's era, he was that Chosen One, but instead of bringing balance to the Force, he allowed himself to be corrupted, which stripped him of his Chosen One potential, and the Force would then pass that opportunity on to a brand new Chosen one candidate at least once in every generation.

[@MrIncreddible79]

I think the bane trilogy is a great trilogy. Is Darth Bane still Canon?

[@Sam_T2000]

it took Yoda lots of focus and energy to slowly lift Luke’s X-Wing out of the swamp, and though he’s a super Jedi he was visibly tired afterwards, and this was meant to be an absolutely incredible feat. I can understand Force powers being hyped up in animation or video games, and maybe the likes of Vader or Palpatine can do something astounding from time to time, but only rarely…

[@Goku_MMZ65]

I honestly think God tier Starwars Characters should be able to perform God tier Feats, such as vader beating a nearly Islandsized Monster in the canon comics. It simply depends on how powerful the force user is, yoda's feat are impressive back then but i wouldnt lie if i said that someone like the father could probeably do the same with a much bigger object.

[@ender5023]

I've been having a really hard time with the Disney starwars. I almost can't call it cannon simply because of how ridiculous the characters are. Seriously, you don't go from not knowing what the force is to facing off against a sith apprentice and winning in your first ever lightsaber duel. Not that Kylo was very skilled, he had some commitment issues with the dark side, but he certainly had been training way longer than Rey (Rey didn't have training). Being a Palpatine doesn't matter either. Anakin's medichlorians were higher than Sidius's, yet had to go through extensive training for YEARS and still did not come close to being a Sith Lord. Idk, the Disney franchise is not the same universe of starwars that I knew. If you want to think of it like a marvel movie, it could be palatable, but only barely. If you tell Disney you don't like it, they will say it's because you hate woman or that you are racist. No. We don't like it because they have taken the discipline out of "the force". Apparently all you need to be a master is know about the force for a few days and be sensitive to it... If only that was the case for Anakin and literally every force user before him...

[@richardsylvester4518]

I don't mind super powerful force users in Star Wars ... providing its justified. One episode earlier, Obiwan was struggling to move a metal bolt across a table, that's why his godlike force against Vader is stupid.

[@a.jordan9288]

He was cut off from the force. It's obvious that once such was regained he would start to pull off more impressive force feats. He's a fully trained and experienced force user so it's understandable that once his powers return we would see another level of feats.

[@pian-0g445]

@@a.jordan9288 the problem is how there’s not enough space between him before and after. Yes he was cut off from the force, but ask any person that has learnt a crafts or art or martial arts. You take a break for a week, a few months, or years, and it takes a bit of time to get back your mojo, and it’s gradual. You have to make your muscles relearn or remember how things were done. Obi-wan was developing his slowly at first, but then by the fight it had gone way beyond that.

[@a.jordan9288]

@@pian-0g445 I guess we can imagine it like a pipe(force goes through) that is blocked inside him.Leia helped to allow drops go through but not remove the blockade. During the fight we see he can use a bit more than before like when he tries to throw a column of rock to Vader but the later stops it nonchalantly. So at this point more and more drops(the force) is going through and only in that desperate moment(about to be crushed) is when manages to fully remove that blockade and all the force can run through him. He was trying to talk with his master so perhaps force wise he was not in a bad shape as most guess... rusty? Probably but not like Padawan level.

[@Daniel-ll2cl]

Force ability is tied to emotion though so i guess he overcame whatever he was going through and regained his power. But lifting all those damn rocks was ridiculous

[@timefly4221]

“The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of The Force.” Even the OT hinted that there was more to the Force than perhaps we saw in those films, which was not Force power on the scale of planetary destruction. Disney Star Wars mostly decided that this means Force users could move bigger things and shoot more lightning than was originally portrayed, although there are also some pretty funky things happening in Jedi temples according to Clone Wars and Rebels.

[@randalthekidd7006]

Ok but he means like darth maul taking over mandalore super easy and creating a crime empire months after being brought back from insanity. The power is the adaptability and unique skills being a superhuman empath with telekinesis. It’s not literally just scaling up. Palpatine being a politician is like exactly what George means by that line. You can undo an entire republic way more damaging that one planet

[@victorochoa3662]

@@randalthekidd7006 Average Darth Maul fan vs Average General Grievous Enjoyer.

[@emberfist8347]

@@randalthekidd7006 I was thinking Vader meant realized the Death Star is a massive waste of resources and not going to be the trump card Palpatine and Imperial High Command thinks it is.

[@TankHunter678]

@@randalthekidd7006 Internally to the movie Vader was foreshadowing that Luke using the force to guide himself and his shots bringing down the massive station. Yes the death star could destroy worlds, but a farm boy in a snub fighter using the force could destroy the death star with a single shot.

[@Underworlder5]

@@emberfist8347 also, you can destroy a superweapon, but you cannot destroy the force

[@abandonallhope.1040]

Man, it makes me sad seeing all of these reviews tear Kenobi apart, even if it is well deserved. If the show had been good, it would have been analyzed to death for years by youtubers like the OG and prequel trilogy is now instead of being immediately put aside for the next new Marvel or SW show and only remembered for its mediocrity.

[@wowentrances8198]

This is beyond accurate.

[@treystephens6166]

Star Wars is a disposable commodity now.

[@wowentrances8198]

@@treystephens6166 exactly. It’s an IP farm for Disney. They actually don’t care

[@achaudhari101]

@Ashley “Well deserved” oh piss off with that shit. Analyst channels are buzzkills that ruined KZbin.

[@treystephens6166]

@@wowentrances8198 but George Lucas couldn’t see that ?

[@macdog1]

The rocks really wasn't much a power creep. There's some rock scenes in the animated clone wars series. Season 1 Anakin and obiwan are stuck in a cave and fight a beast using rocks since they didn't have their lightsabers - Anakin literally lifts a pile of rocks in this cave, that is not that much smaller than the show.

[@matthewbreytenbach4483]

Anakin had been actively training with and using the Force for over a decade at that point, Rey had known the Force existed for about a week, two tops. There's a large conceptual gulf between those examples.

[@r.k845]

That very Jedi is considered space Jesus

[@owenwolf962]

What was cool about the Lucas Era was how reverent they treated the force. It was a religion and a lifestyle that the Jedi had for a living force. Disney treats the force like a generic superpower.

[@DagoSanDiego]

Yes, and that's why Disney had to undermine it when it was still a youngling, as well as any actor's character who could have been seen as being able to speak for it in our world. Disney paid billions for the rights to Star Wars, and the last thing they wanted was an unscripted Scientology-type organization arising that could possibly gain protection under the US Constitution. This is a reason why they retained Kennedy- she is just doing her job.

[@TheVinicius200]

What's funny is that most of the scenes and scenarios in Obi-Wan show can be argued were stolen and repeated like when they snuck into the inquisitiors base it was pretty much fallen order all over again and Obi-Wan lifting the stones against Vader was ripped straight out of last jedi when Ray did it. My main problem is that the force is used with no limits even if you're a character like Ray you can use the force right off the back with no problem

[@beanch9616]

The entire fight with Vader it was a rip off of Vader fight of Ahsoka from....Rebels🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@TheVinicius200]

@@beanch9616 yeah I forgot to mention that as well I remember turning it off there. I was like no season two for me. They F-upped big time.

[@cirrusfox8052]

"The entire fight with vader was a rip off of vader fight of ashoka from rebels" How is it a RIP off from the ashoka fight? The only similarity is the slash on Vader's head. (Which is on the correct side of his scar this time) Just because the injury is similar to another fight does not mean the entire fight is a RIP off. Vader's fight with luke where luke cuts off Vader's hand isnt anything like where dooku cuts off his hand. In both fights vader/anakin has his hand cut off so does this mean by your own logic that the count dooku fight is a rip off? "I remember turning it off right there" ......ok?....good for you? You people seriously sound miserable.

[@TheVinicius200]

@@cirrusfox8052 The obi wan Vader fight is a rip off because they just tried to repeat the same story beats that happened when Ashoka fought Vader. You can totally tell this writer just watched previous fights of Vader in other series and just tried to repeat it with a few changes. but he repeated the same emotional pay-off that we see in his fight with Ashoka. I turned it off because of the lack of creativity, no different to when game of thrones handled the last episodes of their final season, I turned it off as well. If you liked the show that's you and more power to you. But not everyone liked the show or the current direction Lucasfilms are taking these characters, especially someone like me that knows the lore and is a big fan of legends and I could see the potential this show could of had but they wasted it on one trick ponies like this. But you're right, Starwars definitely makes me miserable every time I watch something from Lucasilms nowadays .

[@WhatsTheTakeaway]

The Force should still be a mystery. Is it some sort of external energy field? Is it an internal energy field, like Chi? Is it a sentient, galaxy-wide entity? Are Jedi controlling the Force, are they negotiating with it, or is the Force controlling them? Is it a god, or a tool? And what of the Sith? These all should be interesting questions for the franchise to explore, without ever answering. To answer these questions, in my opinion, would be to rob the audience of the philosophical and spiritual inquiry.

[@Iliadic]

The answer to all these questions is yes. The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.

[@emberfist8347]

Well the series already answered the question of how the Jedi view their use of the force and how the Sith see it which is why they are diametrically opposed to each other. The Jedi view themselves as servants of the force hence their frequent use of the term the will of the force while the Sith try to control it and play god.

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

@@emberfist8347 Yes, but they could have expanded upon this by showing how hard a concept it is for the young Padawans to grasp, especially now that the old Order is extinct and there's only this one former farmboy to teach them who struggles with the ideas himself...

[@brixenlang3207]

@@Iliadic “penetrates us” hmmmmm🤔😏

[@Iliadic]

@@brixenlang3207 As in the way water penetrates your skin. Or the way you breathe air. Ya nasty.

[@ZoeMalDoran]

To quote Mara Jade: "The key to 'size matters not' is realising that you are not the one lifting things, the Force is. You are merely directing it" A Jedi properly in tune with the Force (RotS Obi-Wan for instance) can do pretty much anything if the Force wants to do it through them. Given that such behaviour is of the Light Side, it's easiest to do things in the service of life. Force Healing has been a thing since the first Star Wars RPG, following the assumption that Obi-Wan healed Luke when he laid his hand on his head in ANH right before he woke up. Rise of Skywalker took the second version of Force Healing from the RPGs (wherein you transfer life energy from yourself into the recipient rather than through yourself) to its extreme... and showed Palpatine doing some Dark Healing/Life Drain iirc. I haven't seen the Kenobi series, but if after Obi-Wan gets his mojo back, he behaves in character and allows the Force to work through him, then lifting really big rocks to smack Darth Vader around is apparently what the Force wants... or at least what the writers want 😉

[@emberfist8347]

Except the RPGs had force healing only as cure light wounds spell.

[@ZoeMalDoran]

@@emberfist8347 That was the earliest version. In Saga Edition, it became possible to kill yourself using Vital Transfer as when you healed someone, you lost half as many hit points as you gave them iirc... in fact I nearly had a player do that on purpose in my first game after they'd had a string of really bad rolls

[@IamRa-18]

What I really loved about Luke’s journey was that he wasn’t the normal Jedi that were ripped from their family and homes at a super young age (which is pretty fucked up if you think about it). He grew into a fully grown adult and STILL was able to become a master Jedi. Which kinda makes the whole “ripping from family” thing unnecessarily evil lol.

[@Hewasnumber1]

It’s the Jedi, they do a lot of evil shit and act like they’re the good guys.

[@RasenReturns]

Luke ends up going to the dark side for a while in Legends because he wasn't fully trained from an early age like the Jedi were before the fall of the order.

[@Tea-ms5uf]

Yeah, we’ll at least the Jedi give their members a chance to leave and they give the parents a chance to say no. The Sith don’t give that chance. They just TAKE kids. They take anyone, against their will, against their parents will and the only way for them to leave is death. Now the qualifications depend on the era of Sith but let’s not act like the Jedi are some all evil villains when the clear villain is still there.

[@ShepherdessAnne]

Yes, that was part of the point

[@Ale-dd3ek]

@@RasenReturns we don't talk about Dark Empire 😂 The bubble Jedi Is still ruling in my nightmares

[@Marshall1026]

I’ve never heard someone explain what gives a jedi power in the light side of the force and what connects them to the force so perfectly. Very well said sir.

[@starcabal2006]

Thor Skywalker keeps making great content. Keep it up brotha

[@arlanhiebert758]

I'm surprised the video didn't mention the force running in TPM, seems like that kind of ability would've come in handy in almost any situation.

[@yospidey0078]

I like to think of force running as just pushing yourself with the force, it doesn’t make your legs move faster. Also the ability may only be used in desperate situations like with the droidekas since it consumes a lot of stamina. Also Luke in Empire performs a really fast jump, it has a blur effect. It would make sense for prime Jedi to perhaps perform a horizontal version of a force jump?

[@_Feanor_.]

It kinda depends on how it works exactly. If you think it's super fast movement, it would be terribly useful even during battle. But we don't know if it is. They run down a long straight corridor very fast. That's all the knowledge we have of it. I think spideys idea of basically it being similar to force jumping is interesting. Myself I never spent much time thinking about it. It was used in that situation but no others just meant to me that it couldn't be used in those other situations. You couldn't just move at 5 times your normal speed during a lightsaber duel, or Kenobi would've done so against grievous (who couldn't have cancelled it out by using it himself). Either it's to draining or it can't be used for such small movements. Like a rocket assisted car. Can go really fast in a straight line, but not do so going around a racing track with all those corners. Because going just fast is one thing. But you also need to stop. And in small movements that's a lot of accelerating and stopping and strain you put on your body.

[@thorthewolf8801]

I always viewed it as an editing mistake.

[@sunsetman22]

I think that's just the "force dash" from The Force Unleashed

[@jacksonbachman2486]

If they wanted Rey to have roided out Force powers, but develop into them gradually and convincingly, they could have used Kotor as a framework to build from. And instead of having Luke be a miserable hermit doing nothing, they could have borrowed from Kreia or Jolee. Episode 8 seemed to borrow a lot from episode 5, why not this? Imagine getting some of their philosophy on the Force instead of, "go away!" Jolee's thoughts on love and passion saving you and not condemning would have been beautiful coming from Luke, especially after the events of the OT. Rey and Finn could have been Jedi in love together, and the force awakening could have been them becoming a dyad. Idk, just rambling.

[@emberfist8347]

Jolee only Kreia was self-righteous hypocrite while Jolee was still a morally good and entertaining character

[@neverclevernorwitty7821]

This is why GL was always the best caretaker. I distinctly remember him saying in some featurette or interview.... "It's not like the force can just do anything." Now in the hands of Disney, "We have the force we can do ANYTHING!"

[@sigmacademy]

It was both the breaking/rejection of canon/total rebooting of the franchise (and yes, it's a TOTAL reboot, because they have been trying their damnest to retcon EVERYTHING in the original franchise) along with the "everybody can do anything" in "our universe" now that totally destroyed the franchise. To quote a familiar saying "if everybody is super, than nobody is super", because everyone is now the same generic copy. The "everybody is super" angle only works if you are going to do something interesting with that angle, like strip everybody of their power, have everyone go drunk with power and saying something meaningful about power or human nature, or have someone with no powers ACTUALLY being more useful than all the supers in the world.

[@Daniel_Huffman]

@@sigmacademy This sentiment is kind of like how every new force-sensitive is called "strong with the Force" to the point where the phrase has lost most of its weight. I wish that they did what Legends sometimes did and have a character weak in the force who instead puts all their effort into lightsaber combat to compensate for that.

[@williamblack2904]

For the Grey Jedi thing, I do think there is a balance. You can do good for everyone while not sacrificing your own needs, and you can have your own desires without letting your pursuit of those desires harm those around you. There’s a reason we distinguish righteous anger from blind rage.

[@MegaGeekMixer]

Think this guy misunderstood what Grey Jedi are. They basically what the OG jedi were: The Je'daii. Which is everything u said, but also to add onto that they follow the Will of the Force.

[@m00nchile1]

One thing I'll admit always irked me a bit, was how the original trilogy had a divide between what was said about the force and what was shown, the most glaring example being "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force". But, I much prefer that to the mockery the sequels made of the force, bypassing all the training and, as Thor put it so succinctly, make it into a superpower. Even my original gripe (that honestly doesn't bother me much), was, in my opinion, quite well developed, or explained in the prequels. Palpatine, with no overt showing of force powers or lightsaber prowess, managed to influence a whole galaxy according to his designs, suppress the Jedi and giving himself ultimate power. That, I'll admit, really does make the ability to destroy a planet insignificant. Great vid as always Thor, thanks!

[@Basilisk2077]

Vader wasn’t speaking about the force in a physical sense. He was speaking about the force in terms of the intrinsic ability it gives the user. The ability to control, to gain influence, and power, etc.

[@diersteinjulien6773]

The Force back then was something more spiritual. That was like saying "A nuclear weapon is nothing in front of my faith in God". It was something personal and impossible to replace. A connection on a deep, spiritual power that encompasses the galaxy, nay, the universe. In the sequels, the Force is ... just superpowers. Rey has so little connection to the Force that she invokes random powers as the plot demand.

[@r.k845]

He wasn't saying that in terms of actual power. It was clearly more spiritual.

[@jimbody1448]

And an amateur force user farmboy destroyed the planet-killer with a single shot...so Vader was right

[@wockomtosh]

I think the force should have some power creep, like Darth Vader being able to stop the ship. But I think it can't get too crazy. In my head the only reason Darth Vader could do that was because while walking down the hallway he was focusing and channeling all his power towards that outcome. He said in A New Hope that the death star was nothing compared to the force, and that never felt true to me in the OT. But with a slightly higher ceiling that makes more sense.

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

His line in "A New Hope" was prophetic. Basically, "Nice battle station you got here, able to blow up planets; but a Force user could take it out." And then, one does, and a complete amateur at that.

[@jimbody1448]

@@YouWillBeHappyOrElse EXACTLY, I always got the vibe of "the force will find a way"

[@danshakulawrence983]

I personally don't mind accomplishing huge, spectacular feats with the Force. We've seen plenty of things in EU lore and video games, even the Clone Wars series. What I have a problem with is how it's not earned or satisfying in any way in the sequels, save for Kylo Ren holding a blaster bolt back. That felt like it was a show of his strength and power level, a way of establishing this new threat as up there with Darth Vader and Darth Sideous. But I wouldn't expect someone like Darth Sideous to be able to wipe out an entire fleet with his lightning, or Obi-Wan to hold multiple boulders in the air without breaking a sweat. And the new powers such as instantaneous matter transfer or illusion projections, I can imagine those being built up to and used thoughtfully, but instead they're just convenient abilities that the Jedi have now for spectacle or to forward the plot. I guess that's it. The Force has become a direct plot device instead of adding to the story. The Force was never used to resolve the plot of any of Lucas's films, it was always the characters' choices and actions.

[@emberfist8347]

Except stoping an energy beam is pretty silly. The Force doesn't mean you break the laws of physics.

[@mega3x]

@@emberfist8347 But physicist has stop light from moving so it doesn't break physics. Besides the force equal magic so it dumb to complain what magic can and can not do.

[@sigmacademy]

The problem with accomplishing huge, spectacular feats with the Force means it takes away from using the Force (or in some cases, using some alternative method to attain the same outcome) in more resourceful ways. Like for example, you can Force Pull a Star Destroyer into the atmosphere or you can shoot it with an Ion Cannon. You can Force Push it out of your way, you can simply hide somewhere until it leaves because it didn't find anything. Or you can hide amongst the cargo on a cargo hauler, and get smuggled past a checkpoint, etc. Finding interesting variations in application of basic Force Powers and Abilities is way better than simply leveling up characters all the time. Leveling up should be a GRADUAL process, one that comes with age and the wisdom that age and experience brings. If you don't have Elders teaching younglings their wisdom and skill sets, then the entire Teacher/Student relationship is pointless. :/

[@darthzayexeet3653]

For Obi-Wan, it makes sense to lift a ton of heavy rocks, he has trained for like 30 years, yeah it's still lazy, but it makes sense for him in-universe to be able to do that. Heck, Yoda was able to easily lift an X-Wing. And in comics, games, the Old Republic etc. Revan, Naga Sadow, Vitiate/Valkorion, Sidious, Starkiller etc. were able to do crazy shit with the Force. But Rey had like a month of training, compared to the decades of other characters. It just doesn't make any sense for her to be so powerful

[@ukaszdybaa6452]

This video brilliantly summarises what I love about Star Wars, how important it is not only because of being a multi-million dollar franchise, but on a thematic level. And it strikes me that some people percieve these movies as uninventive because it’s only “the hero’s journey in space”. Thank you my friend for bringing this immense depth to light :)

[@weezyslob]

Disney treats the force like a little kid who watched Star Wars once would, they just use their imagination and make up nonsense. It’s fine for a kid, but not for the people actually in charge of the franchise. They also don’t get how lightspeed travel works, it’s not instant teleportation.

[@someguy9070]

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Sidious have like force storms that destroyed fleets in legends? That’s just as crazy as him electrocuting a fleet. No disrespect of course but the power creep was present in legends as well as cannon. In the first Force Unleashed Starkiller literally pulls down a Star Destroyer. I like consistency with the powers and I do want to see the force evolve in a logical way but it’s always kind of been all over the place. I also agree that Rey feels more like a superhero than a Jedi. Thor no disrespect I just wanted to put my two cents out there. Happy to elaborate.

[@Silveirias]

I don't know about Sidious, but as for Starkiller (at least in the novel), he's not pulling the Star Destroyer. It's already falling and he's just trying to guide its fall.

[@emberfist8347]

Except not really. A force storm is more plausible.

[@sigmacademy]

The problem with the old EU was that it was never really synchronized or centrally planned in any significant way. The current corporate owners are looking to change that by making everything link up with everything else in a transmedia strategy, but it also runs the risk that the MCU does in that if you make a flop, that flop will ALWAYS be part of your interconnected universe, because everything is specifically made to link up with everything else. Also, if you retcon too much, you run into the scenario that many filmmakers do, by cutting parts of the movie to save on screen time, the movie ends up being unwatchable or incoherent, or difficult to follow because critical elements have been removed from the story. Oh, and some of the "new creators" have pretty much indicated that they are not interested in "consistency", which should already tell you what to expect in the nearby future.

[@MCsCreations]

Oh, I absolutely agree. I just didn't have much issue with Kenobi's scene because it wasn't that many rocks. Looked similar to things that happened in TCW.

[@danielloader3351]

when you see vader getting hit by them you can also see that they arent very big, still think its stupid but it doesn't go to the level of stupidity of rey lifting like an entire mountain

[@MCsCreations]

@@danielloader3351 Precisely.

[@pabloolache7070]

@@danielloader3351 Not trying to defend the sequels here but, what would be the problem with lifting bigger rocks? iirc "size matters not"

[@pabloolache7070]

@@danielloader3351 And no, I'm not defending Rey, no way she could be accomplishing those things with no training, but a trained Jedi like Obi should be able to handle heavy objects calling back to that Yoda quote

[@danielloader3351]

@@pabloolache7070 I know yoda said that but i feel like size has to matter because we don't see jedi taking down capital ships and stuff with the force, it sort of has to matter to some degree or they could do pretty much anything. I feel yoda said that more to get luke to realise he could lift the x-wing, in that context the size comparison of the ship and the rocks was irrelevant, but i don't know

[@vodkavecz]

Honestly I don't mind if the Force is more overpowered. If certain individuals use it. As you mentioned, vader keeping back a smaller shuttle (which is definiately not as beefy as the Millenium Falcon, to counter that argument), and pulling it apart is pretty fitting. Or one of the most epic moments in gaming, when Starkiller pulls down the star destroyer from orbit. And before any argument, it happened before Disney, it's legends stuff now, and it also echoes Yoda's teachings from ESB: Starkiller: - You're insane! It's massive! Rahm Kota: - You're a Jedi, boy! Size means nothing to you. And on the other hand, there's Cal Kestis, the padawan fugitive who haven't finished his training, and didn't use the force for a long time. But he reconnects with it, like Obi-wan, just a bit slower. And the he can push and pull objects and enemies, slow them down to a crawl, increase his acrobatic skills, and of course the lightsaber combat. But nothing extra crazy, and he's on the level with the inquisitors, where he can defeat them in 1 on 1 combat. But when Vader shows up, Cal's only chance is to run away. And mind you, other highly trained and skilled force users squash inquisitors like bugs (like Ahsoka or Maul). So yeah, I'm fine with spectacular showcases of Force powers if it fits the character. They earned it through years of training, and also because they're that strong in the Force. Rey had the second part, but not the first, and that's a problem. Maybe if Rey had random outbursts of Force powers in the heat of battle, that she couldn't control (and it possibly endangering her friends) would've been a better story element. Like when she accidentally shocked and blown up that transport ship. Holding it back on her own was not fitting tho. (Palpatine's space lighting storm was dumb, I agree with that) They could've use this outburst with Rey at the end of TFU. She should've been losing that duel with Kylo Ren, and in her last clash against him, the Force should've burst out, pushing them apart, and crack the earth between them. That would have made more sense later, why she wants Luke to teach her, and why Luke is afraid of her. Raw, uncontrolled power like that can be scary.

[@DarkLordArmanus]

I absolutely agree! My biggest issue with Disney Star Wars, and I think most everyone who has issues with it would agree, is that they seem to be more focused on creating moments that make people go "cool!!!" more than they are focusing on solid storytelling that not only builds on what came before but is consistent with it. The frachise had established lore and rules, and these are constantly being undermined for the wow factor. How they are treating the force is a perfect example. About gray jedi....I guess it depends on what you consider a gray jedi to be. I've argued before that the force is essentially nature....Obi Wan instructs Luke the force is created by all living things. Luke instructs Rey that life and death, creation and destruction, are ultimately balance. I think it can be argued that it was not the sith the brought imbalance to the force, but the jedi...their focus on "the greater good" ultimately resulted in them becoming part of the Republic machine, unable and unwilling to correct great wrongs and suffering in the galaxy unless the senate told them to, instead of listening to and following the will of the force. It's why the jedi found their powers were diminished, how arguably the most powerful sith to ever live was right under their nose, undetected. In order for balance to be restored, the jedi HAD to be destroyed. The sith were unwitting agents in the will of the force. Obi Wan was right that the chosen one was meant to destroy the sith, which he did. But first the sith had to destroy the jedi. So to me, yes a jedi is purely selfless and concerned with the greater good, and a sith purely selfish and concerned with their own empowerment, and it's impossible to embody both at the same time. But I think these notions are irrelevant to a gray jedi. A gray jedi is only concerned with the will of the force, and will be whatever the force requires them to be for as long as they are required to be it. They can be an agent of creation or destruction, indifferent to trivialities of what others consider good or bad, because they serve a purpose much higher than those ways of thinking....just like nature. They can either be the rain that nourishes the forest or the wildfire that burns it to the ground, and they may be both sevetal times in their lives, because to them this is how life is preserved. The will of the force and balance are the only greater good they recognize.

[@Blimpus]

They took SW to full MCU level

[@mygirthisimmeasurable2935]

Growing up and watching my favorite characters do impressive things with the force like shoot lightning, mind tricks, and pulling star destroyers into orbit made me excited for the sequels. I was further excited by the prospect that Kylo Ren was a very unique Sith Lord when he stopped blaster fire midair. Compounded with the possibility of seeing a stormtrooper redemption arc, I was excited to see the sequel trilogy at first. My hopes were then dashed, stomped, and cast aside at the end of the first movie. Rey managed to beat Kylo Ren after closing her eyes for a couple of seconds. I was optimistic at first, my mistake.

[@IN-tm8mw]

I remember them trying to explain the power in "The Rise of Skywalker" as being something like the speedforce. with so many force users dead and gone, newbies could wield more power. I neither hate nore love that concept but i do find it intriguing. If it was better handled/planned in the sequel trilogy, i could've gave Ray more validation and some understanding of why the light and dark sides fight. Being like the old classic movie "The One" or Highlander, Dark users kill light users to gain more power.

[@emberfist8347]

Except that is not how the force was depticed in prior works and doesn't explain why they fight so often. We already know why the Sith are consumed by avarice and the Jedi are morally obligated to stop them.

[@IN-tm8mw]

@@emberfist8347 Regardless of depiction, I'm trying to understand the prophecy of "The Chosen One/Balancing the force." why dose the force need balancing? What are the consequences of an unbalanced force? Have all the events and wars in the series been a result of a "Unbalanced" force? I've always felt that the rivalry or moral obligation of battling the Sith comes from the fact that the Sith were merely a offshoot of the original Jedi Order. We see many times Jedi turning to the dark but rarely to the light, until Anakin but that salvation was only obtained in death.

[@geckomoriadaimyoofwano7157]

@@IN-tm8mw 🤦🤦

[@IN-tm8mw]

@@geckomoriadaimyoofwano7157 nothing to add?

[@sykune]

@@IN-tm8mw the concept of balance in the force comes from Taoism but light being good and the dark being evil is a Christian aspect the two idea do not gel well together as Taoism does not see dark and light as good and evil. They are two sides of the same coin, they show this in mortis arc of the clone wars. Best way to put it the light is about peace and tranquility as well as selflessness, and the dark is passion, desire selfishness, that's star wars over simplification of Taoism light and dark. For true balance to exist for person using the force, they must be selfless but not to the point they forget themselves. They must acknowledge their passions and desires but not be ruled by them. They must taper strong emotions with tranquility so They do not act rashly and they have to be a peace while doing all of this. That's what makes it so difficult to use the whole force, the living and the cosmic so to speak.

[@Feesh322]

Thank you. Your comparison of Disney Star Wars to modern superhero movies helped bridge some cognitive dissonance I'd been having about the franchise for a while now. I knew I felt uncomfortable with how the force was portrayed and you have put my feelings into words, with explanations to boot.

[@sophrosyne8463]

One contributing factor is likely video games, specifically The Force Unleashed games. In the creation of the first the dev team specifically stated in their dev diaries they cranked up the power for dramatic visual effect. It was a means of fun, not a direct correlation to the movies and firm lore. Due to the games popularity Disney likely decided or thought that's how the force actually works or that's what audiences want. Overall, I think it has hurt them because it is not either of them

[@johnbattle7518]

Just thought the same, Disney is intellectually bankrupt so they basically made the force into a video game and there ate people who will watch two hours of a toilet bowl flushing is you put Star Wars theme music in between flushes

[@majorastorm]

Forget the prophecy, This powered version of Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda! He could probably take on the Emperor himself and win!

[@lilboybluenotes7042]

I think you nailed them. The Disney star wards feel like super hero movies. As Rey just has the force and the force made her a goddess among men. I can see what they were trying to do, but it isn’t Star Wars at all. I probably would have still been able to enjoy it in a non Star Wars way, if it had been GOOD.

[@justinwallace269]

I think the addition of more subtle powers would be the way to go. The Prequel Trilogy was decent in that sense, but stuck a little too closely with the original in that it didn't add all that much. There we were with a host of Jedi Masters, all potentially with unique gifts in the Force - yet all we got was the same cookie cutter stuff. I would have liked to see some new tricks on both the light and dark sides. Something creative done with the lore. The Jedi were completely mishandled in many ways - having the Jedi temple on Cybertron (Coruscant) was ridiculous on its face, but I digress. It was definitely better than the Sequel Trilogy, which got classic force powers wrong, and added some really stupid ones like Force FedEx... I enjoy seeing a bit of magnitude added within reason, but it has to come from the right characters and we can't just see it all the time - or you basically get The Force Unleashed... A Grey Jedi fanboy's personal character insert who got to use all the powers arbitrarily with no consequences. Every ten minutes he was trying to outdo the last outrageous thing he did. It was laughable. At this point, Star Wars has been so mishandled that I'd rather focus on writing my own thing, but I still check in on it from time to time. I think they have people who are genuinely trying with the shows, unlike that hack Rian Johnson, so that deserves a chance.

[@robbiecoffey7738]

everything about the prequels and sequels I agree with but for Kenobi the way I perceived it is that Kenobi wasn't rusty or in experienced in episode 1-4 he was just not accepting or letting himself use the force because of what happened the last time he fully used the force he was traumatized and afraid to let himself use it again and let the force completely take him over. but then in episode 5 and especially 6 he had fully committed and opened himself up tp the force again and that's why his abilities came back so fast

[@oEXTRA]

3:58 I always felt that the idea of a grey Jedi is far more realistic than a normal Jedi or sith since most if not dang near all people are morally grey.

[@jonathanryan9946]

If you combine the insane power creep today, with the No Attachments retcon (didn't exist until 2002). We now have characters who basically learn to be gods in a day with very few interactions with the rest of the characters. God, I miss the days where Jedi had relationships and weren't gods but very capable of losing. Authors like Timothy Zahn need to be brought in and set these other 'creators' back on the right track. This way we had narrative temptations to fall to the Darkside, fun and dynamic characters with relatable relationships and dilemmas, plus bitter sweet to happy endings. Lucasfilm under Disney have just made all Jedi into very dull characters.

[@goodmind4940]

how few interactions is related to no attachments?

[@jonathanryan9946]

@@goodmind4940 because they're misinterpreting it. At its core, no attachments, just means being willing to accept that everything in this life is temporary. So marrying is fine as long as you can accept that you and your partner will only have so many years together but then one of you will either die or want to separate. It's really just a guideline of how to avoid the temptations the darkside will try to exploit. What it shouldn't be is a mandate of how a Jedi can live their lives, or them living apart from the rest of the galaxy in either high Temples or in exile (without purpose anyways)

[@jaieregilmore971]

@@jonathanryan9946 hmm that actually sounds reasonable do you think the fans and Disney miss interpreted the whole no attachment rule? because when Ashoka said she can’t train Grogu due to him having attachment sounds like an excuse and irresponsible for letting for untrained force user out to be pray for the dark side hell Mace Windu allow Rahm Kota to join the Jedi when he was 18 because it will be irresponsible for leaving him to war torn world to be corrupted by the dark side.

[@jonathanryan9946]

@@jaieregilmore971 What I think caused the misinterpretation is actually Lucas himself. To give you the proper context though, I'll have to backtrack of why Lucasfilm now thinks of it the way they do. So originally, Lucas's plans for the Sequels were very very different. Mark Hamill even stated shortly after RotJ that Lucas told him he'd be a father in the future films. Lucas himself stated Luke would have a female romantic interest as late as an interview with Starlogue magazine in 1988. Plus all early Lucasfilm employees stated they thought Luke would become a father. What changed Lucas's mind was his divorce from his first wife, Marcia (that name will be important later). But first let's go back to the history of Luke, more specifically his name. He was originally called Luke Starkiller but Fox didn't like that but Lucas insisted they keep the Luke S. part because when said together basically gets pronounced as Lucas. Luke is Lucas's self-insert character. Now on to the Expanded Universe, remember how I said early Lucasfilm employees thought Luke was to become a father? Well, they greenlighted that storyline with Kevin J Anderson and Barbara Hamby, who were hooking Luke up with a female character named Callista Ming. But her character was literally a ghost who let a living girl kill herself so she could take over her corpse. Needless to say, Lucasfilm quickly contacted Timothy Zahn instead who had suggested they hook Luke up with his character named Mara Jade. What's great was she had a great story by herself, lots of character development, was super popular with the fandom, and was a legitimately well written female character as Zahn developed her instead of just treating her like a sex object. Everyone was patting themselves on the back... but then Lucas himself, who knew he had told everyone about his original plans for Luke to become a father and basically lost it. Because remember how Luke was named after Lucas, well Mara was too close to Marcia, his first wife who broke his heart and took half his money and adopted daughter (she also got the Academy award for her rewrites to the Original film, and Lucas didn't). Lucas them spent the next several years stating very publicly Luke (not Jedi) doesn't marry and Mara Jade looked like a Cosmopolitan model. Between this and Episode 2 when the No Attachments rule first appeared in 2002, lots of other Jedi were married (including Ki-Adi-Mundi) and Lucas was basically mum on it. So everyone basically realized Lucas was just very hurt over his lost marriage and didn't push the issue with him. Then Lucas revealed the No Attachments rule and basically brought it down as a ban hammer on Marriage. Basically everyone at Lucasfilm understood it was to outlaw marriage and not specifically unhealthy relationships. All the sudden Jedi just started having kids outside of marriage and in secret (Satele Shan and Quinlan Vos as examples), or quit being Jedi to have families (Revan himself and Jacen Solo). Then Lucas in the late 2000s got into a serious relationship and he started toning down the No attachments rule being a secret anti-marriage retcon, to back tracking them to being more just monks. Lucas went even less hard core about no marriage when he himself finally remarried, now he just states it was a plot device to setup Anakin falling, based on him growing up in San Francisco and being around a lot of Buddhism. Now to backtrack to Mara, the editorial at Lucasfilm had her killed off and Lucas was apparently very happy about that according to J D Rinzler. The editorial department even flatout lied to Timothy Zahn her creator who was writing a book series about her and Luke set after they knew she'd be dead. They kept it hidden from him so he couldn't stop it (because obviously he had a contract to write more books about her, so he could argue breach of contract... instead after he found out they basically just had him write some backstory books for her to complete the contract). So essentially most employees at Lucasfilm know No Attachments is really just Lucas code fir he hated marriage... and wanted to make Jedi more monkish to stop them ever marrying. Just because his first marriage so broke him he couldn't handle Luke by pure coincidence marrying a woman with a similar name to his ex-wife. Now enter Disney and Kathleen Kennedy, where she very clearly wants to transform this into female empowerment. So now we get Rey basically learning things way too fast with little loses of her own and basically no relationship at the end of the day either because some apparently think that makes women look weak. When in reality all of the best characters, male or female have personal stakes in the story and often are struggling to save them. As to Grogu himself, the story of The Mandalorian is basically a ripoff of a Japanese story called Lone Wolf and Cub. In it the baby is offered a sword to become a Samauri or a ball to play with but they'll kill him and his dad if he chooses that... obviously being a baby he chooses the ball. So they hit the dilemma of needing Grogu who was the Mcguffin back with Din Dejaren, so they VERY LAZILY just ripped off that one scene and used the No Attachments bs to force Grogu back with Din Dejaren. Regardless of how little sense that makes for Luke's character, and they basically justified it because Lucas wanted Luke to not be Married to explain that it is in his character. A terrible case of revisionism and placing their desired outcome over the characters natural progression and narrative. Remember nothing in the Original trilogy even hinted at No Attachments, but because Lucas added it into the lore decades later, they're just acting like it totally makes sense. When it absolutely doesn't, going against everything Luke fought for and believes in, in reality. It's a terrible cass of because the audience is now aware of it they can attempt to gaslight Luke's character journey into being all about discovering Attachments (aka marriage) is bad. However let's go way way back, past Star Wars being conceived, to Buddhism itself where No Attachments comes from. Yes, certain monks in Buddhism don't allow marriage, but tons of them do allow it. Because No Attachments doesn't actually have anything to do with marriage. Attachments are just the trapping of fear of loss, but if you learn to overcome the fear of eventually losing them it is harmless to actually have them. As you already have accepted it being transitory to your life. Basically, and very ironically, Lucas hijacked this belief system in his rage after losing his marriage so Luke couldn't be married like he wasn't any more either. Lucas did exactly the opposite of the belief system. No attachments is about ending the pain in this world, by basically learning to be the better person and "letting go" as to not hurt others by not continuing the cycle of negative emotions. Instead Lucas came to it from a place of negative emotions, to prevent millions of fans from getting a happy ending for Luke... all because Lucas himself didn't have a happy ending at that point with the woman he loved. Lucas was absolutely willing to change the lore of Star Wars and Jedi, just to stop Luke from marrying. Now there is a bunch of former Lucas "Yes Men" at Lucasfilm who are now Kathleen Kennedy "Yes Men" caring more about what they want for either ideological or very personal and emotional issues. Not giving any regards to what the Story needed or the fans wanted. SORRY FOR THE LENGTH. I HAD TO COVER DECADES OF HISTORY AND WHY THE RULE CAME ABOUT AT ALL. However, essentially, it all boils down to Lucas having been broken by his own failed marriage and forcing no more marriage onto the Lore as a result. Now, Luke is really a totally different character, but many fans don't understand why because they don't know the history here... and there is a lot of history here. Simply put, no attachments if you keep it as a guideline to prevent being corrupted by the darkside and Jedi have a personal choice in if they will marry and have love or not, but as a strict doctrine it absolutely shatters everything the Original trilogy stood for... and that's why Luke is so out of character when doing it. His character absolutely shouldn't be following that rule as he is definitely set up to be the type of monk who allows marriage and will be like his father in having one. Just far wiser about it.

[@emberfist8347]

@@jonathanryan9946 The no attachments actually forbids marriage because so many Jeid couldn't handle the temptations. Exceptions only exist for extend circumstances or following certain guidelines.

[@ryandodrill6904]

I’ve highly disliked this use of the force since they started doing it. I actually didn’t much like it when it was done this way in the force unleashed or BioWare games but I was fine chalking those up as just non-canon side stories. I love the idea of someone working hard to earn a great power. The idea of a wise monk who is slow to violence but can utterly destroy you is great.

[@krald8421]

Those are also games, by their nature they are over the top/have video game like mechanics *cough* force healing quickly *cough*

[@chalk1415]

I think the Bioware games can be easily explained by understanding that both the Jedi and Sith respectively were at the peak of their power in that time period, which was eventually lost over time due to constant conflict and both factions destroying what the other had learnt. Not too mention the characters in those games did have to work hard for their powers, Starkiller was a very gifted force user and trained with Vader from childhood, Revan was a prodigal Knight of the Jedi order and worked hard his entire life, Valkorion/Vitiate who has the most insane abilities is explained by him being alive for 1000 years and learning rituals to increase his strength. I agree in the trilogy as we know it that the force power seen in the sequels is over the top, but in legends it makes sense. However even then only characters with immense power/training could to do these. whereas Rey and Kylo just kind of do them without that. palpatine's lighting in the end made sense in EU context but not in canon context as we've never seen him to be that powerful before so to just dial it up by 100 makes it silly. 100% agree Force Unleased should stay in legends because it fucks with the main established story. But to me the Bioware games and the history of that entire era and before it make up a lot of context and adds to the current era and makes it more interesting. That's just me tho.

[@ryandodrill6904]

@@chalk1415 yeah I mean the bioware games weren't really bad until the expansions to SWTOR. KOTOR 1 and 2 had some iffy moments but otherwise weren't too bad. I do like what they did with a jedi/sith war and all. I just feel like there were some things they did that weren't in line with Star Wars and so like I say it's easy to just dismiss all that as non-canon which is what it was. What gets me is Jedi/sith and kind of boring as super heroes. Really I find super heroes kind of boring in general. You're effectively forced to level the playing field and thus you get super villains which just makes their super powers little more than useless spectacle. The jedi/sith dynamic is way more interesting. You have the more mystical side of it as a warrior monk. The jedi has an ethical code he must adhere to. Raising the stakes directly conflicts with his code. He wants to go on a rampage and save everyone but can't so he needs to be wiser. He needs to go against his base instincts and not take the quick and easy path. On top of that unlike super heroes, anyone poses a threat to a jedi. Even if they can't take them in one on one combat they could outsmart them with traps or ambushes or just bring overwhelming numbers. Finally it really speaks to our human nature. The selfishness of the sith really speaks to us. We've all thought it, not getting your way? Force people to give you what you want. This is especially true in politics where we all think our way is the good and right way that will be better for everyone. We all want control. But to be good you must take the jedi path of denying your natural instincts and thinking about others before yourself. I just think that leads to WAY more interesting storytelling than two super beings throwing planets at each other. That's why I fell in love with Star Wars initially and what so many writers miss about it.

[@sigmacademy]

@@ryandodrill6904 The thing with the Jedi/Sith dynamic is that people think it's about Good Guys vs Bad Guys, when it's actually more a reflection of the self, and the "Light side" and the "Dark Side" of one self. It's also why the Sith has mirror image abilities to the Jedi and vice versa, and it's just all an issue of application and perspective. It's why Jedi are warned against becoming Sith, and the Sith generally despise the Jedi, and the fact that the distinction between the two sides becomes blurred (during a war setting especially) is an interesting angle to explore. :/

[@sigmacademy]

"I love the idea of someone working hard to earn a great power. The idea of a wise monk who is slow to violence but can utterly destroy you is great." That's a pretty standard setup in old school Chinese fighting films or series, especially when the Master/Teacher gives a mysterious little laugh that is meant to mean that he or she also remembers the impatience of youth, but also recognized the benefits that age (and countless challenges to hone his or her ability by facing many opponents of ever-increasing skill and power levels led him or her to many discoveries about him or herself and his or her limits, and how to overcome obstacles that don't always equate to using your fists). And by facing others who are more powerful than you, it also means that you steadily increase in physical ability and improved technique as well (which is why training and facing superior opponents and getting your ass kicked is sometimes necessary - since learning to accept and learn from failure is one of the many steps to success, and a valuable life lesson to learn). There are also the setup of foolish monks being led down ruin due to their own foolish actions or too trusting natures, which is also ALSO a standard Chinese martial arts setup.

[@thomascranor2668]

Everything about Disney Star Wars just smacks of incompetence and missed opportunities. Always has, probably always will.

[@achaudhari101]

Not always.

[@sigmacademy]

The other problem is the company is pretty much ONLY known for producing family friendly positive messaging that pretty much only features Princesses (aka kids/teens) as its only offering (and one can argue they have pretty much shed this skinsuit currently). They can't make pretty dark stories even if their lives depended on it currently, and you can forget adult-orientated content altogether (because certain Twitter accounts have become their guiding star). And yes, I know the company is spread over a great many other entities, but their unchecked monopoly means all that political messaging is now being distributed amongst all those other entities as well. And that was BEFORE their fall into becoming a completely political organization, only interested in pursuing political goals (and not entertainment value or escapism for its customers). if anything, it's meddling in the political arena can and has cost them DEARLY and will continue to do so for as long as they want to play this (dirty) game). People want them to be what they claim to be - an entertainment company focused on producing high-quality kids programming. They are not in a position to claim moral leadership or superiority in any capacity, considering the treatment of past employees and recent controversies. And that goes equally to the Hollywood studio system in general.

[@brianm22]

Great perspective. I always focused on the character themselves i.e., the character Rey having too much power ….. I never noticed that it was all force user characters having too much power in the new Disney films. There are many things wrong with the new movies that I couldn’t quite put my finger on this I believe is one of them. Thank you

[@theseven-armedgod7381]

My thoughts are that while, I like big shows of the force like Darth Vader grabbing the shuttle, and super powerful force lightning stuff from Palpatine, I think in both cases they seemed either too strong or too effortless. The ship one, I think should’ve at least took both of Vader’s hands, and a protracted struggle, perhaps him being dragged a few feet forward by the effort before he was able to bring the ship down. I believe Vader is powerful enough to do some crazy things with the force, but I agree it felt a little bit too effortless in that it made us wonder why he didn’t do that every time someone tried to fly away from him while he stood there dramatically staring after them. I also love the idea of Palpatine using force lightning as an EMP, or to disable a whole ship because he is honestly the most proficient user we’ve seen with it, but I think something more in line with established powers, like him channeling it to disable or disrupt a singular ship, such as the ship commanding that fleet in order to throw them into disarray would be a lot more balanced, and feel a lot more interesting then some super crazy trump card that comes out of nowhere. I mean, the dude filled a whole room with lightning when Darth Vader grabbed him. Beyond that, Jedi lifting thousands of pounds of rocks easily and moving them around or even throwing them is just silly to me. Like, that’s so many different objects to focus on, and so much weight, especially with what Obi-wan did, he was lifting new ones as he threw old ones, how does a human brain even comprehend that action? Rey doing it almost by accident, seeming surprised she effortlessly lifted all these rocks, and they just floated there like she’d reversed gravity, without her even seeing to focus on them was just a completely ridiculous level of power. I like the Force being powerful, but I like when it feels like it’s strong mostly when you use it in tandem with your own abilities, like Luke fighting with his saber and using the force to pull Darktroopers into range, or Vader in Rogue One using it to hold a door shut and disable some rebels while his lightsaber did the rest. The force should be a supplement to one’s abilities and creativity, not a crutch or something to be relied upon by itself.

[@Vedrlaufnir]

Is Bastilla's battle meditation still within the acceptable force powers?; also, let's not forget Starkilled pulled a Star Destroyer with the force on "The Force Unleashed", and honestly games usually went crazy with the force. I think Force Healing started with Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, and so did Force Speed and Sense (I'm actually impressed they didn't pick on Force Protect or Absorb for the sequels).

[@sykune]

Force healing existed in A New Hope obi wan uses it to a lesser extent on Luke whine the tusken raiders knocked him out with their gaffi stick. I mean Luke's laying their unconious and obi wan places his hand on his head and Presto Luke is awake and seemingly fine. If that's not force healing I don't know what is, as being knocked out with wooden stick could cause a concussion. Starkiller use the force to direct a star destroyer into the ground as it was coming at him, it also nearly killed him according to the novelization but that was still quite the feat. Starkiller tried to stop slave one from going into hyperspace in the second game but failed. Bastilla's battle meditation was unique to her if I remember correctly plus that affected the minds of people granting normal people foresight and enhanced reflexes and mental fortitude.

[@Vedrlaufnir]

@@sykune Battle Meditation was a skill you could learn as well (If not on the first one, on the second) and yeah, it's pretty much a sort of massive force persuade. So anyway, are these things still withing acceptable terms or are they jumping the shark already?

[@sykune]

@@Vedrlaufnir I believe its acceptable as a whole because the Jedi lost alot of knowledge between the old republic and prequels as well the OT. If Rey had jedi texts that were from the time of the old republic it would explain how she became so power so fast overall.

[@Vedrlaufnir]

@@sykune What about Starkiller pulling starships; he's definitely not old republic material and we all know The Force Unleashed series was made to compete against the action games of the time. Honestly the rest of the games were pretty tame with the force powers, and I think The Force Unleashed is the one that went the craziest with them.

[@sykune]

@@Vedrlaufnir well starkiller is a rare case I believe but. He was neither jedi nor sith vader trained him to be a weapon much like the emperor trained maul. Starkiller was a powerful force sensitive who was trained in the dark side of the force then drifted to the light because of Juno who he fell in love with much like revan and bastila. As he was pulled towards the light you see his power increase, this can be seen with the star destroyer he one trying to save himself but also juno and Kota. Also now that vader has grabbed a starship in obi wan it makes starkillers feat that much more believable remember starkiller just directed the decent of the star destroyer as it was falling into the planet.

[@iXSIKOBOIXi]

It was so weird to me when Obi-wan suddenly started overpowering THE CHOSEN ONE with the force. Obi-wan had never been a strong force user, which is what makes him so cunning. He knows his own weakness and fights around it. It's why Dooku kept being able to defeat him with the force. Its because he was stronger than him, and that Dooku got defeated by Anakin. People can make the argument all they want that it was the force empowering him to defeat Vader, it doesn't make sense and Anakin/Vader went down so easily to it.

[@macdog1]

I disagree, this is quite an easy one to figure out and the show honestly did a half decent job of expressing an explanation as it led up to this

[@iXSIKOBOIXi]

@@macdog1 And what was the explanation? He went from cut off from the force, to more powerful than he ever was, and I don't ever remember them explaining why. It felt like a Deus Ex Machina AND looked weird on screen in my opinion

[@macdog1]

@@iXSIKOBOIXi it's to do with the psychology of the relationship between the two and how our emotions really play in the moment with our ability to embody the force. It's honestly not that hard to figure it out my G

[@iXSIKOBOIXi]

@@macdog1 When do they ever mention this? Right before this fight Vader tore a ship out of the sky and tore it to pieces. You're telling me he suddenly got mental block and Obi figured it out? And once again, even at his peak Obi-Wan was never strong with the force. Why is he suddenly Jesus Christ?

[@macdog1]

@@iXSIKOBOIXi when do they mention it? Are you kidding? Throughout all the content we have on their relationship, this is obvious. There's also literally multiple scenes in the show, where they are building the feel of their relationship using memories, etc; Anakin literally says to obiwan that he holds back when fighting him and obi wan does this cuz Anakin is like a little brother to him. For obi wan to suddenly transcend that egoic barrier, allowed him to properly utilize the force to his full potential in that moment. This shift in fighting energy took Vader by surprise, who is still emotionally attached to obi wan as well; for obi wan suddenly to set those feelings of attachment aside, meant Vader realize obi wan saw Anakin as dead, etc etc. All this caused a huge nerf in Vader in that moment. It's incredibly easy to discern this with how they story boarded it

[@nadim4172]

For the record looking at the old Republic or expanded universe in general or even games like the force unleashed shows a pretty ridiculous scale of force powers compared to the movies and I don't think anyone really has had a problem with that

[@spadesofpaintstudios1719]

I still don’t but there’s people that still like to compare the movies which is good but over time stuff becomes that much more convoluted and questions like “ well why didn’t he do that in the movie”

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

Sometimes you have to see someone you DON'T like doing something, in order to understand why someone you DO like shouldn't be doing it, either.

[@heliosjollywolf9552]

ok lets look at the most OP old republic character then: darth vitiate aka the sith emperor, trained by marka ragnos ( who was basically the strongest sith at the time), eats a planets worth of life force with a powerfull ritual, swaps bodies to increase his lifespan , becomes the sith emperor, "dies", becomes the eternal emperor, gets killed again and still carries on a a force ghost for some reason, yeah this all makes him ridiculously powerfull but he also had at least hundreds of years of experience and unlike yoda he wasnt sitting around training younglings, he was spending every second on becoming more powerfull thats generally why people dont have a problem with him

[@spadesofpaintstudios1719]

@@heliosjollywolf9552 exactly not to mention the fact the jedi literally cut themselves off from certain force abilities

[@heliosjollywolf9552]

@@spadesofpaintstudios1719 technically so do the sith, there is no sith who can use force healing for instance

[@tyjuanconnell5791]

For me the main issue is the story line of the sequels regarding the Jedi each movie was supposed represent the Jedi in different eras the prequels was the downfall,the original series was them in hiding in very low numbers and sequels was supposed to bring it full circle luke and or Rey would be rebuilding the order so we as a audience can the see growth and the flexibility of the new order’s philosophies having learned from the mistakes of the of older Jedi from the prequels that’s something the legends canon did to perfection in my opinion.

[@elpenguinoofmexico1388]

Good video on why Rey doesnt work as a character and I never actually thought of the superhero analogy so thats cool. but just a critique on the beginning: the problem is that this didnt begin w/ Disney. Disney only brought it to live action. Legends made Luke an overpowering force. The Old Republic was just ridiculous w/ Characters like a planet eating Nihilus, and the Sith Emperor w/ the powers absorbed of a thousand sith lords. And there’s Starkiller. Worst of all, there’s the 2002 SW clone wars tv show showing single Jedi mauling armies of droids. All this happened b4 Disney acquired Star Wars

[@WASpectrum]

I just realized I have a totally different interpretation of what a grey Jedi is. I think it’s more like Ashoka. It’s someone who believes in doing good and is a force user but doesn’t identify with the Jedi because the Jedi are flawed. They fight for good but ignore the Jedi’s silly rules.

[@emberfist8347]

The Jedi's rules are not silly they exist for reasons we see in the Prequels. People like Anakin are why the rules exist.

[@WASpectrum]

I disagree. I think the rules are what turned Anakin into Vader. His inability to see or rescue his mother and having to constantly suppress his emotions. The Jedi’s misguided ideology is what led to their downfall.

[@emberfist8347]

@@WASpectrum No that is not what happened. Anakin turned because he didn't follow the rules. The chicken in this case people like Anakin came before the rules or egg. You think it is the other way around which is flat out wrong. Anakin didn't have to constantly suppress his emotions and there was no way he could have saved his mother as she lived on Tatooine. That planet is a death trap.

[@Adam_X78]

Hello there

[@johnconner9296]

General Kenobi!

[@QuadZillaGodZillasbrother]

@@johnconner9296 you are a bold one

[@mapachecomunista6276]

I watched the sequel trilogy before the orignal saga, then I started by the prequels (I've not yet seen the original trilogy) and always wondered in certain situations why the force wasn't being used, this video made me realize that the sequel trilogy warped my view of how the force worked.

[@adam.e.nowakowski]

Fantastic video as always, man! I remember watching "The Force Awakens" trailer and thinking: "I will finish what you started. I wonder what's that about. Can't wait for explanations". Ugh...

[@logicaldude3611]

Lucas started some of this with the prequels, but Disney took it to an entirely new level. It used to be a miraculous feat that Yoda could lift the X-Wing. It was mind-blowing with Palpatine was throwing the seats in the Senate chamber. But now all of that seems weak because they’ve turned the Force into a Marvel superpower or something.

[@sigmacademy]

Didn't Yoda tell Luke that size wasn't an issue when using the Force to lift an object, and that his failure to do so was a personal issue of belief/willpower on his side?

[@lustrazor44]

They’ve turned the force from a mysterious…force….that you can tap into when needed to a full blown marvel style super power. It no longer needs concentration or discipline. You can just toss anything you want without any cost. It’s so boring. If force users are this powerful, what the hell is the point of the lightsaber? Just break peoples necks or crush their asses or yeet em off a cliff. What’s the point of the lightsaber? Disney treats em like baseball bats anyway…but still

[@permeus2nd]

When I saw Obi-Wan do the thing with the rocks the first words out of my mouth where ""see this is what that earth bending fight in Avatar should have looked like"" But it also reminds me that the people at lucasfilm need to rewatch the original films, I'm going to mess this quote up so call it paraphrasing ""a Jedi uses the force for DEFENCE never attack"" Yoda and I'm sure it's the empire strike s back as he is more lively where was in return he is on his deathbed, but Obi-Wan has always been a terrible Jedi, (put the weapons down and let me explain) the first time we see him use the force it's a dark side skill ""these aren't the droids you're looking for"" ye that a mind trick and as its under the branch of dominion that's a dark side skill (even if only a mild one) he falls in love and nearly leaves the order, he is the one to draw his saber first in the fight vs Anakin instead of trying to talk him down, then there is the silly line of ""only a Sith deals in absolutes"" which is a jedi dealing in absolutes (line I said silly line but we can put it down to him been emotional) oh also him using the mind trick on the deathstick guy which shows he uses that skill quite a lot off screen, oh its another person bothering me go away (mind trick) what's the line when they pick up Anakin in phantom something about lower lifeforms. Yes Obi-Wan has always be quite bad at been a Jedi despite him trying to stick to the code but what did the order expect with a master like qui gon jinn who sees the code more as a set of guidelines not hard rules.

[@spadesofpaintstudios1719]

You forget jedi are still people their not perfect which is the main reason they failed anyway.

[@akumaten]

@@spadesofpaintstudios1719 one of the major reasons was the current Jedi were getting to political with dealing with the Republic. Mind the fact that the Sith secretly took over the processes of the Republic before Order 66.

[@spadesofpaintstudios1719]

@@akumaten this to which seems to be something people majorly forget

[@quinnbradley7255]

I feel like that the Grey Jedi tapping into the force makes complete sense as they have an element of both sides in their core being in general. Love is an inherently Jedi thought, while Self-serving or Selfishness is more of a Sith philosophy. Grey Jedi, in my mind, is inherently both.

[@dralin350]

Power escalation is tricky. The moment you introduce something epic scale, it's difficult to go back to mundane. The only way to do so is to have consequences. Give reason why it's rarely seen or used. Perhaps it's draining or damaging, or it requires something addition. Vader was enraged and did that large scale act. It may require heightened emotion or it drained him afterwards. Same for Obi. But it should be stated and shown. A friend of mine and I were talking about how Starkiller could be brought back, but toned down to fit-in with the main content. There was mention in the written content (outside games) of him being drained after pulling-down the star destroyer.

[@CarsSimplified]

I definitely feel like in all media, power creep needs to be dampened as much as possible if there's no definitive end to the franchise in sight. Prequels have a fantastic opportunity to reverse power creep for dramatic situations. I feel like a "wait, they can't do that yet?" situation has just as much dramatic draw, if not more than a "wait, they can do that?" situation.

[@GrievousReborn]

Overpowered Sith and Jedi are not exclusive to Disney Star Wars they existed in the old expanded universe

[@jonathanryan9946]

True... but it was a select few writers like Kevin J Anderson, Tom Veitch and Troy Denning who basically made either their pet characters OP or every Jedi OP. In most cases, you had writers like Timothy Zahn who purposefully never had Luke or Mara Jade OP. He purposefully, and often, handicapped them instead. Currently in Disney canon however, basically every story is getting OP with the Jedi

[@GrievousReborn]

@@jonathanryan9946 oh yes and Palpatine who got blown up into millions of little pieces in the death star explosion coming back to life isn't overpowered and ridiculous

[@jonathanryan9946]

@@GrievousReborn not to mention he can now jump into anyone's body who kills him because he says so. Anyways that was all Tom Veitch in the EU and JJ Abrams basically ripping that off and dialing it up to 11. Even though nearly everyone thought it was stupid back in 1991 too. So again, it was selective authors back in the EU, but sadly like minded people to those writers were given the keys to the kingdom. Not the ones that actually made the EU successful.

[@thorthewolf8801]

Its easier to ignore tho, because Lucas had a tiered canon system. Third party writers were below Lucas, and he could contradict them if he chose to do so. Now, disney insists that this is canon.

[@wowentrances8198]

Disney doesn’t fundamentally understand how force ghosts work or the siths motivation to gaining as much power in life. The sith don’t know the Jedi can become force ghosts because even the Jedi didn’t know until Yoda, if the Sith did they would be less inclined to being sith. The fact that yoda was the first to learn how to maintain his individuality after death was unique and obi wan was the first he taught it to. Disney does not understand this and gives force ghosts to every Jedi even if they don’t have the knowledge. No, Qui Gon can only speak through the force he never completed his training. So yes the Kenobi show breaks canon, so it ain’t canon. EU rules applied. Disney Star Wars sucks and as Han said in Force awakens, that’s not how the force works…

[@emberfist8347]

Well for the Sith they can't become Force Ghosts even if they want to. The process to become one is like being a buddist monk you need to be enlightened and be ready to pass through the veil willingly. The Sith are consumed by avarice and can't do that.

[@xUseTheForks]

It is canon and the EU isn't canon you can be in denial all you want but you're wrong

[@emberfist8347]

@@xUseTheForks He is right actually.

[@sigmacademy]

It's not that they lack understanding on how Star Wars mechanics and concepts work, it's the fact that they don't CARE how it works. It's quite clear while the company was putting up a huge PR show in assuring GL that they would take good care with his life's work in that interview, they were already getting ready on figuring out on how to "subvert" his work into something that was a much better " creative fit" for them. The biggest red flag came when they flat out ignore his outlines helping them on the new sequel trilogy - while they were under no obligation to accept it, the fact that they ignored him pretty much speaks volumes. Also, I can't for the life of me get why people are still thinking they will get anything REMOTELY what the old Star Wars was. The old crew is gone. The creative center of golden age Star Wars is gone and hollowed out (driven out is a better description) and filled to the brim with political operatives who care little for the franchise and only care about the platform and what reach it can give them, or alternatively, what bump it gives them on their resume or how they can make the "right people angry". Star Wars as you knew it is GONE, and it's time to accept that and stop the "I hope this next show or film is gonna be good" - if you're unsure if it will be, you are pretty much running on false hope, trying to convince yourself that something is way better than it actually is. :/

[@seanbaugh3239]

*The problem is there are no Jedi in Disney era Star Wars !!! 😳* *"NUFF SAID"™️*

[@jaieregilmore971]

Major disappointments in the Disney trilogy.

[@ShikiHisashi]

The Force always worked this way in Legends. I am personally happy to finally see it used at this scale on film.

[@taureanjackson1894]

Exactly! Some people are upset about the power creep. However, the powers we see in the movies are limited by the VFX effects of that time. In the 2003 Clone Wars 2-D animation, before Disney, Yoda lifted several droid tanks. Mace Windu took on a whole army by himself. Starkiller brought down a freaking star destroyer. The crazy force powers in Legends books and games were canon until Disney, so the power creep didn't come for nowhere. They are just pulling some elements from the Legends universe.

[@ShikiHisashi]

@@taureanjackson1894 My man

[@LiftHeavier]

Great points here, Thor. One of the ways they gaslight us is by (correctly) pointing out a new or broadening of force-use in pre-Disney era Star Wars, but without any context as to the believable power level of that character, as well as the scale/scope of the broadening. It's dishonest, they know it's dishonest, but they do it anyway because that's who they are.

[@imperialearthling4425]

The Jedi are not super heroes, they are monks. Their connection to the force is similar to learning a martial art, training to hone ones mind and body. The more you train, the more you master and the stronger your connection is to the force. Also, it's how you use them that determines what side of the force you are on. Say two people learn karate. One uses their training purely to keep him and others safe, for defensive measures only. The other however ends up using their prowess to install fear to make people subordinate to them, or commit petty crimes. At the end of the day however, both are still human and can be taken down like in Order 66. Granted the Force is kind-of superpowery, like with force lightning, force push and what not, but these powers come at a cost and take training, focus and personal energy. Even Yoda had to focus to lift Lukes x-wing out of the water, and Vader can only really choke one person at a time. In short, the force should be treated more like a martial art, not a superpower.

[@erikfruits6733]

I like your analysis. You make a good point that Disney is treating Jedi like superheroes. Prior to Disney the highest power levels we had seen was Starkiller in the in the force unleashed video game series. But even in that it was push, pull, lightning in extreme level and you had to progress your character to that level. Discounting the new stuff something I have always though was interesting about the force is imagine if the force was real. Imagine if you could have just the telekinesis ability of the force. You would have to be very disciplined not to misuse it which is why the jedi code exists.

[@landrydunhm3067]

“You’re a Jedi boy. Size means nothing to you!” “PULL IT OUTA THE SKY!!!!!” If starkiller was cannon then this would have way less validity, but in the current cinematic universe cannon the power creep is incredibly quick and lazily done. I completely agree.

[@chasegodwin8257]

Wow! Great insight! 100% agree! I never watched Episode 9 because of how mad and disappointed I was from 7 and 8. I was one born the year the original came out in 1977 so I still have all my original ships, figures, records (vinyl discs), cassettes, books, pop-up books, and more. I refuse to allow anymore Disney crap to corrode my memories. I will just happily hold on to what I have and pass the memories and merchandise down to my Children. As far as I’m concerned, 7-9 are like Indians Jones and the Crystal Skull, it never happened.

[@ABadassDragon]

I dont mind bombastic Force powers, i grew up with Force Unleashed games, but, like everything, it needs to have an explanation. The awakening theory you brought up would be a good explanation. I came up with a story where more people became Force sensitive and more powerful trough the Force because of an event (an extragalactic invasion a la Yuuhzan Vong) that made the Force act up in order to save the life in the Galaxy. That would be one way of explaining it