Those "Stripped" of the Grace of Gold - Elden Ring Lore Differences in Translation

[@enfisu586]

It's an important distinction as "stripped" implies he's only dealing death to those who once had the grace of gold, as opposed to anyone who doesn't fit in their vision.

[@nightscout9979]

Considering how the English phrase is almost said like a mantra by people, and Messmer has to adhere to it so word-for-word that he can't even say "my flame", it still comes across like a dehumanizing order from Marika. The Scarseals and Soreseals, akin to Messmer's eye, note that some duties can be like a curse too. As for "stripped", you can find rune items on hornsent bodies, so perhaps Marika once stripped their Grace.

[@enfisu586]

Runes aren't necessarily related to the golden order, but rather represent power under any of the potential visions for the world.

[@nightscout9979]

@@enfisu586 Runes appear to be made out of Grace, and unless they're Great Runes or Mending Runes, they seem to take the shape of a human eye. As such, the rune items are probably from a person's eye. The Lands Between Rune is described as "Grace said to have once dwelled in the eyes of the inhabitants of the Lands Between; the lingering residue of gold." Similarly, Leda's Rune notes that it's "An unalloyed light that has never dwelled in an eye." Based on this, some hornsent having these items might indicate that the hornsent themselves used to have Grace before Marika stripped it as a god. We can also find some of these hornsent in places that Marika's army likely never ventured, such as Midra's Manse, so they're probably not looted from her military.

[@enfisu586]

@@nightscout9979 Not all grace is necessarily the grace of gold. Let's take a second to parse out what grace is thematically. Some people have it, some people don't. It can be stripped away by those in power. Seeing grace shows you where you're supposed to go and what you're supposed to do, or rather those in power want of you. In short grace literally represents being in society's good graces. The role, and priveleges but also expectations placed upon a person by society and those who run it. Runes represent one's power to act and influence the world, their agency. Those for whom society has no use have their grace stripped away, like the tarnished who are explicitly military veterans discarded after the conquests were done, only to be called back once societal order broke down. Each order represends a particular societal ethos, a vision for how the world should be and it's accompanying hierarchies. Thematically, possessing the Elden Ring simply represents holding the power necessary to make your vision a reality. Only grace bestowed by the golden order is the grace of gold. The hornsent likely had their own order, their own grace, as did the dragons, as could any of the possible future orders should one of the empyreans come to power and choose a different direction.

[@nightscout9979]

@@enfisu586 In Elden Ring, Grace is literally a holy power that appears to originate from the Elden Ring. The Elden Ring mural in Farum Azula implies that the dragons once reigned with the Elden Ring and that's where their own mystical gold comes from. Even wild animals can have Grace in their eyes, implying that it's not given as a matter of societal acceptance. The unique Shadow Realm Runes are said to be golden remnants of grace, and the hornsent are no strangers to wielding gold, as seen with the Golden Arcs and Giant Golden Arc incantations. With that in mind, the hornsent's idea of sacred power and grace is associated with the grace of gold as well. These factors, along with the hornsent considering Marika a traitor, imply the hornsent might have had Grace before Marika, as a god, stripped it just like she later took it from Hoarah Loux and his warrior clan. Hornsent killed beforehand, like those at Midra's Manse, may have retained the Grace in their bodies, hence the rune items, or the newly-divine Marika missed a handful of hornsent when removing their blessings. As for being directed to places, that's actually the guidance of Grace, the golden beams from sites of Grace, something different from having Grace in oneself.

[@enfisu586]

@@nightscout9979 The powers that be can distribute or revoke grace as they please. Having grace is simply a matter of being in the good graces of whoever is in control at the moment. When the dragons ruled, they had their grace, so did the hornsent when they were on top. Then the golden order was. The fact that wild animals are considered to have enough of a place in the order to be given grace but the tarnished do not speaks volumes imo. As for the concept of gold, it's a little difficult for me to parse without having access to the original Japanese to see if they were using the same term for gold in all instances. My current working conception is that gold represents the (inevitably flawed) conception of a perfect societal order, or simply exists an indicator that all the various instances of gold are drawing their ethos from similar ideas, in contrast to other outer gods (and the principles they represent). To take a step back from the canon lore of the games and look at what the game is actually trying to say, one of the first things the player is introduced to is following the guidance of grace to find where to go, but almost immediately after that most players will meet Ranni who recontextualizes it. The game is asking the player to question and reconsider the paths laid out for them in real life and start making their own conscious choices about such things.

[@agopessimist1335]

Now that you brought it up, I can definitely see the nuance in the original JP lines, though I think the ENG dialogue still manages to give the intended message either way, especially with all the lore surrounding Marika in the Land of Shadows. Can’t wait to see another video from you soon!

[@devinguy]

Really digging this format, great work as always!

[@TheUnKnowNKazadiel]

Oooh Messmer Lore, Let's GO!

[@georgehouliaras7239]

I will not suffer... A Lord devoid of Light.

[@AlbertusSalvatierra]

Based bite sized content moment

[@kirillfox5958]

waiting for Fear The Old Lore: Elden ring edition

[@headecas]

I had a feeling that was the case

[@kyleharrison713]

I'm so glad they at least did Messmer's story right.

[@FaeQueenCory]

It's clear that the only thing that Messmer has done (due to the realization that Marika has abandoned him) that goes against Marika's will/by his own determination has been the Specimen rooms. His knights argued that Hornsent culture should be preserved... And Messmer seems to have agreed to some extent. Marika, however, vehemently disagrees. Though she cares not as the Shadow Lands are an eternal punishment for the genocidal Hornsent.

[@nightscout9979]

Marika seems to have tons of stone tablets in her bedchamber that match the ones found at the Specimen Storehouse, so she apparently had a use for the research. Preserving the specimens might have only been done after Marika no longer had a personal use for anything, and it could be that Messmer's knights persuaded him rather than Messmer particularly caring either way.

[@erikfrederiksen4863]

Do you feel like either of the Japanese or English should be considered "authoritative?"

[@LastProtagonist]

I'm a believer in the "death of the author" style of interpretation, so I leave it up to the individual's discretion for how they want to interpret the lore. For myself, I place the Japanese text as being more authoritative because it offers more clarity and consistency than the alternative. I'm willing to accept there could be some idiosyncrasies, particularly with changes made in the voice recording booth or now with GRRM's involvement in the process, but we're not privvy to those details, so I just tend to put a mental asterisk next to things when discussing Elden Ring.

[@erikfrederiksen4863]

@@LastProtagonist Personally I bounce between just vibes and desperately wanting to know authoritatively what's going on. Who burned the Erdtree and covered Leyndell in ash the first time? It's driving me crazy. :D

[@aaronsalinas3854]

I'm first! Lol keep up the amazing work!

[@Nemo12417]

The Erdtree wasn't always the dominant force in the Lands Between. By default, everyone was once outside of Grace. And those who could not or would not fit shall all meet death in the embrace of Messmer's flame.

[@nightscout9979]

Even wild animals can have Grace, so it might be that the Elden Ring was bestowing Grace upon the world even in the reign of the ancient dragons, or as the Crucible/Erdtree grew naturally before Marika's reign.

[@Coypop]

Recall the golden strands Marika seized at the Gates of Divinity, you might see her as stripping them from whatever that cloth is obscuring, maybe the Hornsent's clergy whom she seduced/usurped.

[@nightscout9979]

A thread on Reddit discovered some posts by the 3DCG artist who worked on that scene, and Marika was apparently pulling the hair from a swaddling cloth. As such, there might have been an infant or infants in there rather than hornsent clergy. Also, that's probably only a swaddling cloth as a euphemism, since it looks like a sack with no care for who or what's inside.

[@MidnightatMidian]

@@nightscout9979 Maybe it was baby Messmer inside the swaddling cloth, and maybe it was his eyes that she was stripping off..

[@nightscout9979]

@@MidnightatMidian It looks to be actual hair or some kind of natural strand rather than an eye. Also, the lack of any noise from within the bag suggests that anyone inside of it is dead. Messmer probably isn't in the bag, and considering that he's a demi-god, and seemingly not an honorary one, he probably wasn't born until after Marika became a god.

[@nightscout9979]

@@MidnightatMidian KZbin seems to have deleted my comment, so I'll try posting again. The strands appear to have a natural shape, such as hair, so they're probably not an eye. Also, the lack of noise from the bag implies that whatever Marika brought with her was not alive. Furthermore, since Messmer is a demi-god, he wouldn't have been born when Marika used the Gate of Divinity.

[@MidnightatMidian]

@@nightscout9979 Lol it's just a game. Your objection does not really stand out. As nobody knows what Marika took out of that swadling cloth, it couls perfectly be baby Messmer's eyes. In fact it could explain a lot of things, the serpents things betrayal etc...