Thousand Sons Legion Deep Dive for Warhammer Horus Heresy

[@michaelcarmine2310]

Apothecaries that are asigned to a unit gain all the units special rules and unit subtypes - so Khenetai Blades could use their power without a problem ✌🏼

[@IVIaskerade]

Also, the Dark Angels comparison is a bit misleading since DA apothecaries explicitly _do_ have to have the same Hexagrammaton as the squad they join (but apothecaries can mix types within their unit selection at army creation to allow for this)

[@myrar8708]

Nice! Hope to see the other factions as well 🙌

[@heresyhammer]

We’ve done the majority now. I think it’s just Death Guard to go, who will be covered shortly

[@AndrewPeverells]

Thank you so much for this episode, as a TS playe4 I've been waiting for it since I discovered HeresyHammer! And kudos to Fullcirclehobby, he's very knowledgeable and paints amazingly good. A couple of comments here and there to strengthen some points I think flew a bit under the radar. Corvidae is also nice on a contemptor-osiron dreadnought to give it sniping lascannon or melta. That's how I run it sometimes. Eidolon of Suffering can really get you a lot of value. A fully buffed (biomancy + pyrae) praetor with thunder hammer and paragon blade can dish out 10 thunder hammer attacks at S9 brutal 2 plus another 2 at S4. That's potentially a total of 22 wounds on its own. I don't think there's anything else in the game at that level that can dish out as much damage, he's a super beast. Pyrae is really nice on something like despoiler or assault squads. Pair it with a pavoni apothecary and suddenly you have a unit that dishes out the same amount of hurt as a World Eaters assault squad and moves faster than a White Scars. Don't underestimate raptora. Yes, it doesn't give cataphracti termies a 3+ like it used to, but think of breachers with a 4+ invuln on an objective with an apothecary (medusan immortals who?). Or what if I told you your cataphracti terminators can sweep? Give raptora to a tartaros unit and you have a 4+ invuln that sweeps. Or the ultimate combo: a command squad with boarding shield and raptora. Terminators without being terminators. I completely disagree with your takes on Magnus, and I personally think he and all other TS named characters are absolute gobshite (bar maybe Amon in a suited list), because a centurion with magister of prospero casts powers better than them (I mean, there's multiple other reasons why I think Magnus is bad, but I really, really don't think he's that much of a force multiplier as you said). Maybe I'm missing some tactical finesse here, but why would you ever choose Ahriman's warlord trait over a basically 100% chance of having every psychic power and arcana off on your praetor/sekhmet deathstar every turn, or souping up your praetor to primarch-level power? Also, Ahriman can kill himself with the minor arcana he's the master of. That's just bad rules writing if you ask me, and it's a trend with TS, but oh well. Better luck next edition I guess? For the Ammitara: they're super cool, even better than Mor Deythan as snipers, but you forgot to mention one thing. They can't see in the dark, because they forgot to give them an augury scanner. Elite psyker assassin snipers that can kill you from miles away behind a wall with psychically-guided bolts, Wanted-style, can't see past 24 during night. That's an auto pass for me, I can't justify paying 200 points for super snipers if there's a chance I can't use them. There would be much else to comment upon, like the unexplainable overcost of the Sekhmet (I'm paying 50 points each compared to like 35 for what? The privilege of being a thousand son?) or the stupid fact that independent characters can't take the TS specific achea force weapons (???), or stress even more than you did how hilariously bad and overcosted the castellax-achea are, but this comment is already a kilometre and a half 😁 Anyway, amazing episode. Keep it up guys!

[@shawnfreed8586]

From one warrior-scholar to another, even tho it's even more points tacked on, you can put a techmarine with an ammitara squad to give them nightfight and retain their psychic power (due to tech marine covenant)! Then opponent can't even evade reaction.

[@AndrewPeverells]

True, but points really wrack up, as you said. Why do I have to pay 60 more points to counter a simple design oversight for which I would have paid 10 tops? It doesn't sit right with me. Also, nice to chat with another warrior-scholar mate!

[@shawnfreed8586]

@@AndrewPeverells you're absolutely right. It feels like another tax. Just like how our Khenetai power is fundamentally broken for how you'd like to play any combat squad 😫

[@commissaryarrick9614]

I want to love Ammitara occult Intercessors, I’ve used them at events before too. They just have a bad habit of perils and killing half the unit. They really need ld 9 or I need some Solar aux to soak their perils. Sekhmet I agree are overcosted, but I honestly have not been disappointed in them. They always do what I need them to do when I use them.

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@shawnfreed8586 exactly! The Khenetai Mindsong is so badly written it's hilarious. In lore, they're supposed to be guardians of temples and the higher echelons of the Cults (their name literally comes from ancient Egyptian "in service to Aten", the Sun god, which is in turn the Sun of Prospero, so literally "in service to Prospero"), but suddenly they lose their special power when a character shows up? Like, what? It's not like they unlearn to spin their blades more effectively because, hey, the chaplain's here lads Also, their colophon explicitly states their armour is finely forged by the legion's blind artificers, but they have regular power armour. I mean, GW, make peace with your own lore.

[@randyoverland7221]

Actually psychic tests are not affected by positive or negative leadership modifiers, a legion standard and fear would not affect a psychic test. The only modifier that would impact a psychic test is a psychic hood. Also it’s important to note that magister of prospero gives the buff to the warlord and his unit, so it can work well if he’s in a Sekhmet squad or has another HQ attached to his squad.

[@heresyhammer]

You’re correct Randy

[@cerrilove700]

Something i didn't include in the episode, is the Thousand Son specific allied Solar Auxilia trait. It lets you put perils of the warp wounds on your auxilia mooks rather than the unit. Pretty helpful!

[@ryanfoster7234]

Can't wait to finish this. Can you link all the sponsors in the description in future videos?

[@jonathanaskham3333]

Yep, we’ll link them in the show notes

[@tristanholt9741]

I’ve been enjoying the combo of throwing magnus 10 sekhmet with achean axes and a chaplain down. Casting telepathy for turn off reactions in the charge phase and coupling that with biomancy and some other fun spells so that you get an uninterrupted 31 attacks from the terminators at WS5 re rolling in first round of combat Str 8 with biomancy and achean force axes whilst being T5 so tanking the fight back and having Magnus deal with any issue models when charging or having the sekhmet inceptor tank an enemy primarch for a turn whilst I get rid of his bodyguard unit. Works super well just for the damage since players in my area don’t do the list tailoring thing and tend to not take augury scanners or vox disruptors.

[@commissaryarrick9614]

Good video. Completely agree with nearly everything. Castallex-Achea are priced for their weapons in 1.0 when they were ap 3 and 2. I use them because I love the models, but they stink. The rite of war bonuses should really be standard for their cost. Armmitara are a really cool unit, but I find the leadership 8 hurts. You will perils and it really hurts them if the unit is small. If they are large, it’s a huge cost. Aether fire on vehicles and standard dreds doesn’t work because they aren’t psykers to activate it. Aether fire is underwhelming, it’s really only better than plasma against terminator type 2W models. It was mentioned briefly at the end, but you could have spent a whole slide on Praetor / Consul combos with disciplines. The ability to get the bonuses from various consuls and pair them with psychic disciplines is where the strength of the legion shines.

[@heresyhammer]

We’re hopeful to revisit that in a ‘Legion Synergies’ series

[@warpeye]

Thanks for a great show!

[@AOTI40k]

An interesting Legion with some phenomenal kitbash potential with the 40k kits too!

[@heresyhammer]

Agree, some really interesting modelling opportunities

[@rob.orangesm]

Thanks Adam, great insights!

[@heresyhammer]

He’s such a babe!

[@jamesmcevoy3853]

Looking forward to this one!

[@heresyhammer]

It’s an absolute doozy!

[@shadeofheresy]

Just a note. Pretty sure Force weapons double the base character strength then add bonuses. E.g. Ahrimans sceptre would be S9 not s10.

[@louisburton9064]

Force weapons is dubbled yes but if it is arcane force its only a +2

[@shadeofheresy]

@louisburton9064 yeah, I'm talking about bog standard force weapons like Ahrimans. They say he's at S10, but should be S9 AFAIK, unless he's getting +1 elsewhere.

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@shadeofheresy yep, characteristic bonuses happen after special rules, so force happens before +1S. For example, biomantic augmentation buffed thunder hammer praetor is S9, not 10.

[@shadeofheresy]

@@AndrewPeverells You do understand thats exactly the point im making with my comment dont you??

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@shadeofheresy first, calm down lol Second, you said "pretty sure that" and "AFAIK", hinting at a sliver of uncertainty, so I wanted to make it absolutely certain and strengthen the point with the actual rule.

[@lucasbizien5197]

You've forgot to speak about the Legiones Auxillia that can within 12" be given the Perils a Astartes Unit can take. Moreover the Auxillia gain Adamantium Will 6+ against this Perils. Just this counter the Achean Robots where you take Perils on an expensive model where you can just kill a 5pts Auxillia.

[@heresyhammer]

I think producer Cerri has already addressed this, but there was an omission on the slides, so we may get to address that in the next community show

[@jonathanaskham3333]

Sorry for my terrible audio at the beginning, I completely forgot to plug my mic in. Mediocre audio to follow…

[@Hermit_hobby]

So what you're saying is you did something wrong?.. 😂

[@heresyhammer]

You sound like my wife..

[@Hermit_hobby]

@@heresyhammerxD

[@greyknight8192]

Does Amon give the unit he's with Shrouded(4+) then?

[@jonathanaskham3333]

Huge thanks to Adam!

[@ero9841]

How do guys feel about a assualt marine based thousand sons list.

[@heresyhammer]

Send it.

[@commissaryarrick9614]

I almost always run a large assault squad with my TS. The pyrae arcana and pavoni arcana (with apothecary) makes them fast and potentially hard hitting. I say potentially because perils can always rear their ugly head.

[@gaaaaaaaaaaah1]

Good video but I think that the combos were understated. Magister of Prospero in some basic double claw terminators, maybe with a Herald who all have pavoni. +3 move x 3 guys (Sgt, and HQ's) now you have mv 16 terminators. Maybe stack some characters with the sekmet with biomancy x3 or 4. Or Three characters and 3 Osirons all with telepathy! Glorious!

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@gaaaaaaaaaaah1 wait, mv16 terminators? I don't think Pavoni stacks

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@gaaaaaaaaaaah1 wait, mv16 terminators? I don't think Pavoni stacks mate

[@gaaaaaaaaaaah1]

"add a bonus of +3 to the distance moved" So do that three times and you'll get +9 simple as. It stacks the way achean force would stack with biomancy (as even the guys in the video mention) so again it isn't beyond reason AND you still need to pass the tests.

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@gaaaaaaaaaaah1 nope, it doesn't stack like achaean force stacks with other characteristic modifiers. Achaean force is a characteristic modifier, and they do stack. Pavoni adds +3 to the distance moved, not to the characteristic itself (and in fact it doesn't give you +1 for charging either). And you can only use it once because it's triggered on a unit selected to move, and you can only move a unit once. Same with Raptora, which triggers on proximity when you move. So, no, it doesn't stack. It would be crazy if it did.

[@gaaaaaaaaaaah1]

@@AndrewPeverells nope, by that logic you will have moved only 3" because you cast it before having moved and since you have not moved it would be 3". Raptora clearly states a cap of 4+ and Pavoni does not. Multiple casts can be made to add to your total distance moved if I cast it 3 times I would have added 3" 3 times.

[@asur7781]

Epic as always

[@heresyhammer]

Cheers buddy!

[@OmegaIdiot]

I feel like on eatherfire you just kinda skpied part where you get that rending 6+ in place of breaching 4+ tbf. Which is slightly concerning to me when considering usability of them if Im honest.

[@OmegaIdiot]

Otherwise i really like idea of TS, and god smite me if I dont love dual axe egyptians magi!

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@OmegaIdiot aether-fire weapons are great. Yes, you lose breaching 4+, but you get rending (which is better), more shots (assault 2 for the blasters), +2 S for doubling out, and they're not gets hot. They're way more reliable than regular plasmas and they're excellent terminators and veterans killers. Think like this: each 6 to wound is potentially a dead justaerin right away. Or a dead character. A normal plasma needs two shots for that and it can kill your guys. Hell, a full volley of 20 shots can down a dreadnought or even a land raider (happened to me multiple times), something a normal plasma couldn't do. They're excellent, give them a try.

[@gaaaaaaaaaaah1]

Pair it all with corvidae and you only need the one 6 to put on to his Sgt/ apothecary/ whatever you like.

[@OdyessusIthaca]

awesome video! Im a long term Thousand Sons fanboy who has been slowly painting a TS heresy army with some interesting choices despite never playing heresy. This is very inspiring and helpful as I think about finally playing a few games :) really very insightful

[@mooncake5287]

Leaving a comment as requested

[@heresyhammer]

Hero.

[@fatmikefatmikefatmik]

🎉🎉best legion ever!!!!

[@jonathanaskham3333]

After recording this, hard to disagree

[@davidmaheux2474]

you misread the corvidae. you cannot snipe a character with it. you only allow the first wound if the character saves it the opponent is not forced to continu to put wound on it.

[@heresyhammer]

Pretty sure that’s what we said 😮‍💨. We discussed Lascannon HSS as it would double a character out. (If an invun save was failed)

[@davidmaheux2474]

​@@heresyhammeri seem to have missed that i will go back and rewatch

[@BlastastiC]

Leaving a comment to highlgiht the lack of wrongness. Least amount of things done wrong by any legion in a deep dive thus far.

[@heresyhammer]

Such a backhanded compliment 😂😂😂

[@BlastastiC]

haha sorry, I am referring to Magnus, who famously did nothing wrong. And also Arihman, also a genius.

[@ortegaja0704]

Best legion in ZM

[@heresyhammer]

Difficult to disagree. They have to be in the conversation

[@jeffers1985]

I've been playing tsons this edition and I find them very weak. Perils on psychic tests is utterly crippling and you just don't want to even attempt the powers as the payoff is meh. Ahriman feels like a auto include The robots are not even worth taking

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@jeffers1985 Agree on everything, but, i've heard it from the video as well, why do you think Ahriman is so strong? I personally think he's absolutely forgettable. Genuinely curious here

[@heresyhammer]

The ability to honey-dick your opponent with a large-scale redeploy is huuuuuge

[@jeffers1985]

@@AndrewPeverells the redeploy can be crucial in certain games. However the rest of the army is let down. I hope if rumors are true HH 3.0 fixes Tsons

[@AndrewPeverells]

@@jeffers1985 wait, what rumours did you hear?