Thrór's Map | Tolkien's Developing Vision

The Map of Thrór is the first map seen by many Tolkien readers. This video shows different versions of this map and some of Tolkien's ideas that didn't make it into the famous endpaper version we see today. Thrór's Map shows us how outside influences changed the Legendarium itself.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
0:53 - Thrór's Map in the story
2:48 - Early Manuscript for Chapter 1
3:55 - Thrór's Map Copied by B.Baggins
5:01 - Publication Issues
6:22 - Customs of the Dwarves
7:43 - Maps & Author's Notes
8:16 - Outro
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► On-Screen Notes:
Not included
► Artwork:
All artists, images, and links to sources are found by following the link below. If you would like to see your artwork appear in videos or discuss the use of your artwork on the channel, please get in touch.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
► Thumbnail art :
Erebor - SaigaTokihito (deviantart.com/saigatokihito)
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
Music: Soaring by Kevin MacLeod
Free download: filmmusic.io/song/4386-soaring
License (CC BY 4.0): filmmusic.io/standard-license
Artist website: incompetech.com
Music: The Death Of A Dark Star by MusicLFiles
Free download: filmmusic.io/song/7297-the-de...
License (CC BY 4.0): filmmusic.io/standard-license
Artist website: cemmusicproject.wixsite.com/m...
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #legendarium #hobbit #dwarves #thror #lotr

[@klhaldane]

My sister drew me a replica of the map for a birthday about fifty years back. I still have it.

[@TheRedBook]

Ah, even more special to you then than just the first map of The Hobbit :D

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Ok where’s my deluxe edition of The Hobbit with Moon Letters that I can only see when the moon shines behind them? Why is this not a thing I can buy???? Seriously though, really cool video. I knew there had to be a reason you covered this but it was a *fantastic* reason. It’s insane to me the amount of thought Tolkien put into his stuff.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you! And yes, I mentioned this in another comment and even went to see if I had missed some edition of The Hobbit. Very surprised some "original" version doesn't have this. I know there's the facsimile edition, which is great. I'd love a deluxe version with the map added in this way. WIthin a chapter as well.

[@NickBR57]

It would be easy enough to do - just a watermark on the map page. Pity they haven't done it - or maybe I should check all my copies..

[@john.premose]

I was recently reading the Note on the Text in my paperback copy of Fellowship, and even that gave me such an appreciation for Tolkien. It talked about the revisions that Tolkien was doing up until his death, and I got such a feeling that I can’t describe- I just felt, there must be more to this life than the few years we have in this world. I’m not religious or anything, but it’s just hard to accept that someone like Tolkien is really gone. It’s like, there needs to be some way that his spirit or whatever you want to call it, lives on somehow

[@Callisto_Arcas]

What a beautiful way to show just a small part of the many ways Tolkien struggled with the publication of his works. The back & forth, the negotiations, the compromises he went thru in all the publications; including the one that wasn't published during his lifetime: The Silmarillion. I love that this one had a happy ending, or at least a compromise that gave fruit to an interesting part of the history of Dwarves. Thank you for another fascinating look into the Legendarium. I look forward to more Tolkien Archives content!

[@TheRedBook]

A lot of Tolkien's Letters that people don't talk about go into some of these details about publication issues - strangely fascinating to see it all coming to fruition back when he was writing and sending off his work for others. I'd still love to see the moon-letters effect on the page though, that sounded really cool :D but I like seeing how the map evolved over time into what we all see when we open The Hobbit!

[@neant2046]

Once again I'm enchanted by the amount of thought and work that Tolkien put into tiniest details - this gives the world created by him a depth that no writer has achieved since. Thank you for sharing this delicious piece of the Tolkien archives! I'd love to see the moon letters the way Tolkien originally planned them, the idea is so magical! When I read his letters, it always makes me smile how he struggled to "brush" his perhaps too great ideas for such a mundane thing as publishing process :D

[@TheRedBook]

Can only wonder what these ideas would be like if he was publishing today. He'd be allowed to make the books look any way he wished!

[@neant2046]

@@TheRedBook Yeah, especially with ebooks! Like moon letters glowing when the nightscreen mode is on! That would be amazing.

[@TheRedBook]

I'm taking advantage of the all the TV show hype by...making a video about a map from The Hobbit. A rare appearance from The Hobbit on the channel. I have some other ideas for videos about The Hobbit but feel free to share your own below (It's quite underappreciated). I also wanted to show more of the maps here but have to be careful when it involves Tolkien Estate copyright as I'm sure you understand... Support The Red Book: www.patreon.com/theredbook

[@istari0]

I'd be very interested in seeing something on the changes Tolkien was planning for the new version of The Hobbit that he began but was talked out of completing.

[@MistaGify]

An unexpected treat, haha! Only recently have I begun to appreciate the contribution of maps to fantasy worlds besides objectively providing information like modern maps do. I hope you can do more for the maps of Middle-Earth and Beleriand.

[@connielingus8385]

Well, apparently, there are hobbits in the "adaptation", so...

[@Enerdhil]

Tolkien Estate? 😂🤣😆🤣😂🤣😆🤣😂 Maybe if you pay them a quarter of a billion dollars they will let you do anything you want.

[@Enerdhil]

I have a question that has bothered me since I realized that Níniel jumped into the gorge of Cabed-en-Aras carrying her and Turin's baby in her womb. The question is simple and I think the answer depends on one's interpretation of '"In the spring of the year after Níniel conceived," she became wan and sad.' How many months pregnant was Níniel, when she took the dive?

[@Hero_Of_Old]

One of the best things about this channel is all the new Tolkien artists I've now become aware of!

[@TheRedBook]

Videos wouldn't be the same without them!

[@Hero_Of_Old]

@@TheRedBook Also, would you consider any videos on the Lossoth, Forochel, or Forodwaith? The icy areas of Middle Earth always intrigued me, and we don't get to see much about them.

[@TheRedBook]

I consider videos on anything if it's interesting to me! I went to have a look at my idea list and Forochel is listed in a topic with the ruins of Utumno. Is there anything in particular you'd find interesting about these areas?

[@Enerdhil]

The worst one of them seems to have a better idea of what characters in the Legendarium look like than those who are working on The Rings of Power.😔

[@gregk2369]

Thanks for this I had never heard of this. Moon runes would have been so cool!

[@TheRedBook]

We shall pressure the estate to release a version with them ;)

[@willharper1326]

Okay, this is only the second video I’ve watched on this channel, and I’m completely blown away. By the art, the choice in lore, the details, everything. Almost every piece, is some of the best Tolkien art I’ve ever seen. This is the best channel I’ve found in a long time, and I hope it gets millions of subs.

[@douglasharley2440]

as always, fascinating! not hard to imagine why that _very cool_ idea of having the moon-letters be directly behind the map in the printed book was rejected...lol, getting that all lined-up with old-school typesetting would have been a NIGHTMARE. 😱

[@TheRedBook]

An idea ahead of its time but if it had worked it would have been legendary :D . Still, I'm very surprised that no edition has tried it - even just to honour Tolkien's original idea. At least, no edition I've ever found of The Hobbit.

[@stephenward4418]

A short video but a brilliant one.

[@TheRedBook]

Was trying to make one under 10 minutes and it was very difficult 😅 . I'm not a fast talker (as you may have noticed).

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Indeed the details behind these things are fascinating, they lend depth and realism as well as being enchanting to the childish reader, as i was when i first saw the Hobbit way back in the dawn of history. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@ironblue4593]

Very interesting video, I will definitely pay more attention to maps in future

[@TheRedBook]

I highly recommend Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth book and Brian Sibley's The Maps of Middle-earth.

[@andrewfanner2245]

That was very thought provoking, thank you.. I started musing along the lines of "Men, being more of The Sun than the stars, would more logically orientate (sorry!) sunwards." This would suggest another influence to bend their map origin to the North, given that the Elves would perhaps be more inclined westwards to sunset and twighlight. Morgoth's primary fortress at the time of the awakening of men, and soon after Morgoth's meeting of them, was North...

[@TheRedBook]

Good thoughts there and I had thought of the issues with North being associated with the darkness and evil of Morgoth as well. I know that in the Westlands, the West is seen as the focus at the top of the map too. I like this as a quirk of the Dwarves, they are just different because of course they are :D

[@istari0]

@@TheRedBook I wonder what, if any, effects the world being initially flat might have had on the inhabitants of Arda in making their maps.

[@Davlavi]

Its amazing how things happen and adapt. For the algorithm

[@billdavidson3519]

Red Book, wonderful video!

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you Bill :)

[@Enerdhil]

Maybe something like a water spot can be used in the printing so that you can only see the runes from a certain angle. There should be something someone can do with the print technology that exists today.🤔

[@Enerdhil]

Great video, Steven. You are exceptionally great at getting me to care about something I never even thought about. Now I wonder if the original map was the right one🤔

[@willharper1326]

I’d also like to say, I’ll never forget the first time I opened up The Hobbit, and saw that map. To this day every time I open a fantasy book with a really great map, it’s almost like a magic spell that draws me into that world. Maps of all kinds are fascinating to me, especially maps in books.

[@catherinewhite2943]

Fascinating!

[@TheSaneHatter]

"Boring"!? If you only KNEW how much fun I had with Tolkien's maps, back when I first read "The Hobbit" in 4th grade! I looked at the larger, more detailed maps of Bilbo's journey and eagerly planned out my own adventures in Middle-Earth. (BTW, my basic plan was to conquer Mount Gundabad and then use it as a base to assail the Orcs in the Grey and Misty Mountains.)

[@Pub2k4]

Tolkien was brilliant in his quest to blur the lines between “fiction” and “mythology” even if that was a line that only he could see.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Steven, you know what I always found odd about Thror's map? That he still had it with him when Gandalf found him. Anyway, that is a cool video and quite an interesting consideration on how work on illustrations can enrich the lore in unexpected ways, I would intuitively say East fits the Dwarves from other evidence we have but it comes with an arbitrary feeling as well.

[@TheRedBook]

A few people have brought that issue up and I will definitely clear it up in my Appendices video before the end of August!

[@stoner36s]

So I just checked my copy of The Hobbit, it's the most recent Illustrated Deluxe Edition...2004 I think, and the corrections have been made on the map. So happy they made the corrections to reflect the authors intentions.

[@TheRedBook]

Hi, I have a few versions of The Hobbit without all the changes. Would you be able to type out the ISBN if you have time? :) would like to check it out then update folks about it on my end of month video.

[@stoner36s]

@@TheRedBook ISBN 978-0-00-711835-9 it is the 2004 Deluxe Edition. They corrected many issues with previous edition misprints, omitted words and incorrect names. I thought I saw a breakdown on Talking Tolkien but I must be mistaken as I can only find the Deluxe Edition LOTR breakdown on his channel. I am going to keep looking for it so I can pass it on.

[@stoner36s]

@@TheRedBook found the video I watched before I purchased my copy. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXKyYnhjgMyGq5Y

[@TheRedBook]

@@stoner36s man I even have that copy and it's the one I didn't check 😂😂. I'll mention this in detail on my response video and let people be aware of this version. Thanks :)

[@MrBernardthecow]

Was there any similar development to maps used in LotR? Maps are often crucial to a fantasy fiction story.

[@TheRedBook]

Absolutely, the maps you see in your copies are not the originals. There were changes, some were redrawn from drafts for later editions. If I find something interesting again to talk about then I'd certainly make more map draft videos.

[@virtualcircle285]

Wait a minute ... where did he hide the key and map while he was a prisoner???

[@douglasharley2440]

*dungeon wallet.*

[@TheRedBook]

Have you seen Pulp Fiction?

[@shanenolan8252]

@@TheRedBook the gold watch

[@virtualcircle285]

@@douglasharley2440 hahahaha exactly. I hope he washed them after

[@virtualcircle285]

@@TheRedBook hahaha gives a whole new meaning to 'moon runes'

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers

[@pwmiles56]

I like the old map! I grew up with it. "Where is Dain" is better than "where Dain dwells". The map works much better as an endpaper. So no, I don't like these posthumous edits however well-intentioned. Christopher somewhere says, whatever complaints Tolkien might have with printers and publishers he generally accepted the printed work as final. Another example is changing Sam seeing a star through Galadriel's "finger" to seeing it through her "fingers" (The Mirror of Galadriel). This was done in the 2004 edition, at Christopher's suggestion, but IMHO it should have been left alone.

[@noyoudontgettoknow8586]

everyone should watch the LotR movies from the early 2000's the day RoP comes out. interesting thought, if anyone has the means to rent out or to get a local theater to have a showing of those movies on that day. :D

[@shanenolan8252]

Everything Tolkien is interesting.

[@SkunkWerks7]

And thus the RPG standard of "Zeast" was born.

[@tominiowa2513]

The map and key must not have been seen as valuable by Sauron, or he would have confiscated them.

[@TheRedBook]

I do have an answer to this one as a few people have brought it up. I'll answer it in my response video.

[@Irish_Pete]

Kilmarnock off or as good a start as man utd

[@TheRedBook]

Rangers and Celtic in a row - at least we got them out the way. I'd be happy just not getting relegated because we really do suck!

[@Irish_Pete]

Hopefully we can stay up too, but it might force the glaziers to sell if we go down. Bad times

[@TheRedBook]

Oh, I can't see Utd going down but I can honestly see a top half finish unless something changes. Looked dreadful against Brentford.