Three Degrees - Why Wharfedale's new Super Denton Is Such a Smartly Designed Small Speaker...

[@glennwassermann6972]

Mike..."does that make him Peter Sellers?" was brilliant. Don't let Dave beat you up.

[@MrVinylista]

Hilariously funny, said no one ever!

[@ianmarconi5169]

Back in the 70’s I had a temporary job in Dixons in Middlesbrough and one day a few sets of Denton 3 speakers appeared which were 3 way versions of the Denton which were exclusive to Dixons, don’t know why. I bought a pair straight away complete with walnut veneer. I used them very happily for many years but they quickly disappeared from stores and were never seen again. I can see the ancestry here. I think I paid about £60 for them and eventually sold them for more when I moved out of the family home.

[@MrVinylista]

Wow! The original 3-way Dentons would be 'too cool for school', now. Nice story, thanks.

[@jozefserf2024]

Great to have 1 driver cover the entire midrange. Throw in a super quiet composite cabinet, and you have a sure winner.

[@asrarul12]

I have always been curious about Wharfedale's Heritage Speakers. Thanks to Mike and David for this wonderful review. Love from Bangladesh.

[@rklmbd2934]

Peter actually has a youtube channel to which he hasn't uploaded in years but what there is will show you he's a thoughtful man.

[@antunkatona5674]

Hi fellas! Whoever said you ought to get to the actual review as quickly as possible is WRONG! It isn’t worth watching If it doesn’t take at least ten minutes! On a more serious note, IMHO, the reason why these speakers sound as good as you have described them is the dome midrange. Introducing ‘a third’ drive unit in-between the tweeter and bass unit means off-loading, of a sort, the midrange frequencies away from these and onto the third drive unit. Sounds reasonably simple, doesn’t it? The thing with 2-way speakers is this - in order to have a high-quality speaker, you need either 1) a high-quality tweeter that can go down in frequency without distortion - typically a larger-than-usual 1’’ dome with high power handing to complement the bass unit, or 2) a high-quality bass unit that can go up. High-quality tweeters that have low distortion and high power levels are expensive so designers typically go for the 2nd option. So, adding a third drive unit just for midrange frequencies seems to be the ideal solution then. It certainly might be but there is a big BUT here - high-quality midrange drive units are aexpensive too and it isn’t as easy to produce a 2’’ high-quality dome as you might think. It does cost a bit of money and this is why dome midrange drive units are rare nowadays. Also, introducing a third drive unit makes the crossover network a lot more complex and crossover in itself is pretty expensive to get right, especially if high-quality components are used and because crossover can either make or break the sound quality, you have to use components that are at the very least decent. Regarding the Wharfedale specifically, I think the company is a proper manufacturer which means they make their own drive units and can optimise the cost of production and offer a product of high quality at a reasonable price. Mike, I am not surprised you liked the imaging because one of the traits of a midrange dome are wide dispersion. It integrates well with the tweeter and because it does go low, it also integrates well with the bass unit. Bass sound waves become omnidirectional at a certain point so well ‘rounded’ speakers with decent drive units and well-optimised crossovers can sound wonderful and like I said, Wharfedale being what it is, I’ve no doubt these can sound great and now I really want to listen to a pair. The cabinets are decently sized too and with a 6,5’’ bass unit, it might also be able to produce some good bass. Cheers!

[@richardparnell6551]

I don’t need any more speakers. In fact I have been instructed not to buy any more! But the Wharfedale Heritage range really intrigue me. Thanks for another great review.

[@jedi-mic]

There's a couple reasons why you would want two ports, reduces chaffing also you can tune it to have no port resonance also it can be in a better position against the wall without it sounding boomy so much

[@NigeSavage]

I came for the speakers.... I stayed for the RUSH CONVENTION!!!!!!!!

[@razisn]

The Super Linton is coming too.

[@Norman-bone13]

It’s here now!

[@stevehollingbery9744]

Had a few speaker designs by Peter, does not matter which company he was working for at the time. He like Fink is the man. Great enjoyable Riff again chaps.

[@laurieharper1526]

I've always loved the traditional Wharfedale look. Reminds me of my first "proper" speakers (Lintons) back in the 1970s. They had a kindly sound that smoothed out less than perfect source components and amplification.

[@nickevans3190]

Another fantastic rift lads very enjoyable 😊

[@timbre7999]

Super Riff! I listened to the original Dentons when I was 16, I'll check these new ones out when I can, thanks guys! To the lovely Peter I would like to ask; why not infinite baffle? Sealed cabinet designs can sound so good, we do need more of those.

[@bjwal6]

Ooh super Lintons as soon as humanly possible please

[@TonyCottrell-iv2qv]

Another great riff, balance between nonsense and review perfect. Looks like Mike's Rush convention was very handy for the station! No need for a cab..

[@martinscase3904]

Super-Dent-astic! My first speakers were Denton kits supplied by Wilmslow Audio installed in over-sized cabinets made by me and my Dad in the garage. Brown formica veneers and later, brick-columned stands with nails for spikes haha. I was always a bit down on them cos of the cone-tweeters!

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

Great riff , more wharfedale please Dave and mike 😊

[@LGGunslinger]

great review.. we need a vs Kef Q Cncerto Meta, MA Silver 100 7G, Super Denton...

[@mrkitewine7700]

Ooh, thanks very much for this chat about Rush gents, it’s rather bizarre that the topic then turned to Wharfedale speakers, but these things happen. I briefly owned the Denton 80th but I found them too closed in unless the volume was cranked up beyond neighbour annoying levels, they just seemed too rolled off in the upper frequencies and made Rush’s treble happy Power Windows sound lifeless (or should that be Lifeson-less?). I soon sent them back as my neighbours needed my speakers to work at low volumes and bought the Neat Motive SX3 (in a different league and price range). I have read that the Denton 85’s had a brighter top end than the 80’s. I imagine these are pretty similar. What brands of amplifiers (or amplifier tonal characteristics) would be a good match for them?

[@kjbunnyboiler]

My first Rush gig was in 79!

[@threecakes]

Super-duper. Thanks fellas.

[@JamesH1973]

Great review guys. Thanks. Any chance of a review of the Spendor D7.2 speakers. 🤞🏻

[@markcarrington8565]

First, great Riff guys. Second, there was a Rush convention 20 miles from my house and I missed it 😭 There are some products that even though you’re not in the market for them, you’re just glad they exist.

[@MrVinylista]

That's a great point - and just how I feel. The more choice, the merrier!

[@domo3552]

I've always thought your local could be make a good set for your Riffs.

[@cremersalex]

Like the Lintons, they are voiced to be listen to with their grilles on.

[@r423fplip]

No, I would never have guessed.

[@__DMC__82]

Which is a bummer

[@cremersalex]

@@__DMC__82 Not at all! They look much more classy and expensive with their grilles on because the front baffle is not veneered, unlike the Denton 80.

[@__DMC__82]

@@cremersalex Did not know that but I still much prefer to look at any speaker with the grills off especially something beautiful like the Linton. Especially when you crank it up and like to watch that woofer dance.

[@steven2809]

@@__DMC__82Trouble is it alters the frequency response with the baffles off....and you get edge diffraction!

[@jimfarrell4635]

Also, a tip for those considering wide baffle speakers. It's hard to get speaker stands to fit wide baffle retro style speakers, if you don't go for the manufacturers own. My solution recently with Tannoy Eatons was to get a pair of centre speaker stands which fit the wider than deep footprint. Lovely all wood, bespoke sized stands which cost less than the typical bare metal and wood, or just bare metal stands from people like Atacama. Worth considering. There are eBay sellers who will build to size. Also plenty of off the shelf centre speaker stands also in places like Amazon.

[@razisn]

If you're in the UK or the EU, Newcastle based firm Custom Design offer a large range of stands for almost any popular speaker (including classic open frames suitable for wide speakers) and failing that they are always available to do a modification or custom design (pun intended). Highly recommended though not cheap (but not too expensive either considering their quality). They have distribution in most EU countries. They tend to respond swiftly to email inquiries. I'm on my second pair of stands by them, currently supporting a pair of ProAc D2R.

[@analoglooney]

Tannoy Eatons....yum!👍

[@MrVinylista]

@@razisn Great recommendation. Custom Design made my Yam NS-1000M stands, to my exact specification. Great company.

[@jimfarrell4635]

Custom Audiovisual Furniture did mine. They customised two of their centre speaker stands to fit almost exactly. They couldn't quite do the full depth because it would have meant twice the amount of walnut. Total cost for two solid walnut stands was £170. Not each. For two. They sell direct and through eBay.

[@jimfarrell4635]

As I type I have a pair of 1970s Lintons drying in the porch after a couple of coats of Teak Oil. I was disappointed when I played them before refurbishing at the harsh, strident top end. However, when I took them to bits it transpired that both crossover caps were reading way more than they should (30uF instead of 25, 15 instead of 12). Now they have nice new polycaps in and we shall see how they sound. But it brought home to me how important good crossover design and good components are in terms of the sonic signature of a speaker. The original Denton had a super simple crossover I remember. I wonder what these new ones are like. Also, either you two are smaller than I thought, or these are bigger than the standard Denton. Are they?

[@razisn]

At first read I thought the Lintons were dying in the porch..

[@stevengagnon4777]

I believe one of the problems with a small two-way design is that the woofer is often 165 mm. This creates a problem in the crossover to a 25 mm dome tweeter. One problem is that the two drivers don't reach each other very well . Either the tweeter is going to have to go lowerthan it should . Thus operating in a wide frequency range. The higher energy the tweeter is operating at then shows up in the upper range along with more distortion in the crossover frequency. The woofer gets crossed over too high. Getting into cone a frequency where it starts beaming and possible cone break up nodes. Then there is also the problem with the physics of the woofer. It's still small to deliver strong bass in order to get strong bass then the driver mass needs be increased...causing a problem at the crossover frequency again as it is rolling off too low for the tweeter to reasonably reach it. It's a catch 22 because the bottom end is expected from the typical buyer to avoid the extra expense and inconvenience of a subwoofer. So there you have it : boomy poorly defined bass . Midrange that is missing or dipped. And a tweeter that is working to hard to make ends meet. This is why in a classic three-way design with a larger woofer the mid range cone is typically 130 mm. Now the crossover to a 25 mm dome tweeter is so much easier and closer to ideal . These mids also can be crossed over pretty low giving the woofer the job it best at. A smaller 130 mm woofer in a smaller cabinet . Good sound stage and imaging. Better vocals ! If the vocals are good generally so are the instruments in the midrange too. Add a sub or two and the bass is covered and easily going down much lower. I listen to alot of classical music....the irony is there are instruments that the fundamental note is low. For example the grand piano is 27.5 hertz. If my speakers are down ten decibels at 40 hertz I'm only hearing the first harmonic of that note.

[@razisn]

Experience with well designed 2-ways with Ribbon tweeters and a 165 mid-woofer (such as the ProAC D2R and K1 or the much cheaper newish Quad Revela 1 which happen to have been designed by Peter Comeau) with the tweeters crossed sky high due to the ribbons, proves what you're saying is far from being a rule..

[@jonathandiamond-ns5df]

Would be interested in an Alphonse Mouzon Euro Convention

[@MrVinylista]

Paging Christopher Frankland!

[@metatron007]

If only the Rush convention had hired in a 15K Active Opus Audio Rig it would have knocked everyone's socks off. Take a look inside one of their power amps and the outside looks like it's been made for Nasa..

[@Norman-bone13]

Nice riff guys. Thanks. This is a speaker I’m considering when budget allows. I’m using Wharfedale Diamond 225s now and love them. I’m very curious about the three-way array in a stand mount speaker. I love the Wharfedale sound. I drive them with a Cambridge CXA 61 integrated amp. Musical joy. 🎶👍🏼😎

[@stevesmith3033]

I can't believe Brits, the makers of the LS3/5a speaker and inventors of the British mini-monitor, are calling these speakers small.

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

Small 3 ways are the hardest to get right nightmare with the bass

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

I love wharfedale speakers I’ve all of the the old ones that is yes they were called super Linton etc W20D they have the purple tweeter and a cast woofer 😊

[@gordonbeall6667]

I remember hearing that the Lintons were designed to be listened to with the grills on… something about the way the baffle is set back from the surrounding frame if I remember correctly. These look to be the same story, so… did you listen to them grills on? Another great riff.

[@MrVinylista]

On and off. I had them in my system for weeks, reviewing them for StereoNET, and had plenty of time for experimentation. They image a little better with the grilles on, but the treble has slightly less bite. Bass is best when they're about 35cm out from the back wall, in my room.

[@kjbunnyboiler]

Afternoon gents👍👍

[@jeffstockton534]

Geddy was shopping for Naim gear

[@analoglooney]

Peter has done a good job of reviving these old classic Wharfedale names. I'm hoping we'll see a new Kingsdale or Rosedale in the top of the range at some point, 15" bass drivers and all. For bass you can feel man....get those 70's flares flapping.

[@misterarcane3863]

The rosedales are my main speakers. Sure, I'd love a pair of the new super lintons, but it's a bit out of my price range, though....someday. The rosedales are great they go down to 35hz. I did make a new crossover based on the dovedale 3 design (a low pass and high pass filter on the mids) I've 2 pairs of the original super lintons I've refurbished and rebuilt the crossovers with better parts. I love early wharfedale.

[@analoglooney]

@@misterarcane3863 I agree. I have Rosedales too and Airedales. I modded my Rosedales too using Kingsdale crossovers. Exception bass quality from the Rosedale. Very deep as you say, but tight with it due to the acoustic suspension design. I always thought the Wharfedales sounded better than the competion at the time, apart from the big Tannoy 15" Golds etc. Proper speakers!🙂👍

[@misterarcane3863]

@analoglooney Very cool my friend. The airdales look fantastic. As I say I'm a big fan of the early wharfedales. My collection is: W30D Super Lintons,meltons,l8nton 2s,rosedales, dovedale 3 the 3xps and some early dentons. I'm on the look out for the first linton model, I'd like to put in a super rs dd 8 with a Super 3 tweeter. I've had great success using Russian petp 73-16 caps in all my crossovers. Just a sucker for that early wharfedale sound. Graphs and charts aren't everything, I judge with my ears.

[@analoglooney]

@@misterarcane3863 Crikey! You're worse than me LOL. That's a nice collection. I think a lot of it has to do with the attitude of Gilbert Briggs. His philosophy was to design speakers that sounded good in the average living room using your ears. Amazingly, when the Rosedale was measured it was almost flat! Grab yourself the book ' A pair of Wharfedales' written by Brigg's Nephew David Briggs if you haven't already. You'll love it. Always trust your ears, silly measurements mean nothing if the speaker sounds crap. The Airedales use the super 8 rsdd and a super 3 coupled to a w15rs. It's a very nice dynamic combo. 🙂

[@misterarcane3863]

@analoglooney A kindred spirit I see. yeah it's a great book. I drive them with a Pioneer SA 6200 that had rebuilt and recapped. The best tweak was to use rothwell 10db attenuators on the power amp input,increased signal to noise ratio.The amps 15watt and is great with the 95db sensitivity rosedales.

[@cremersalex]

I think Linton 85th was actually the second release in the Heritage series.

[@oliverbeard7912]

Sadly I must confess that I also thought about the "Peter Sellers" ahem,joke just before Mike came out with it. It reminds me of another dad joke of mine,why don't Selfridges expand on their product range? I'll get my coat.

[@keithneal5369]

To me, wharfedale have always been underrated, I love to compare them to my tannoy 609 mk2s. These are 2 way dual concentric loudspeakers, also twin ported on the rear which seems to work well. Designer's often say that designing a small 3 way loudspeaker is difficult, the crossover has to be just right, usually expensive to produce, therefore not common.

[@TheAgeOfAnalog]

How far from the back wall would you recommend placing them?

[@emotown1]

Mr Price said in answer to another comment : 35cm out from the wall is where he did his testing. Hope that’s a start.

[@rickg8015]

Which would you have for a relaxed late night listening, the Super Dentons or AE500’s?

[@joeblack-l5c]

Amazing..they actually made them mirror imaged. Don’t know why all speakers aren’t mirrored. All they need to do is flip one baffle over and it matches the other side. Right??and left

[@analoglooney]

Yes I agree. Something that KEF in the 70's could never grasp so you sit with your neck snaked to get a center image. Madness, and lazy in my opinion. As you say, all they had to do was flip the baffle.

[@johntucker5994]

I suspect that the dual ports are due to the fact that the tweeter and mid-range are offset opposite to each other. BTW I looked at the English Acoustics website; and those are just gorgeous tube amps. Would be great if you guys could review one or both.

[@munkifrog328]

this is the first time that i have been lucky enough to stumble across this gem of a channel, i will deffo subscribe and check out more videos, just wondering, i have some kef cresta 2's i quite like them, even though they are from last century... how do you guys rate them, and did you do a video on them? i will have a look anyway :) keep up the jolly banter and great work :) :)

[@MrVinylista]

Thank you and welcome! The Cresta 2 was a decent little standmounter, back in the day - quite a punchy and feisty sound by KEF standards. I seem to remember reviewing it for Hi-Fi World circa 1999, but we haven't done a video of them I'm afraid. Please take a look at our previous videos and hit 'subscribe', have fun!

[@acimbobby]

Super Dupa yes. Those midrange drivers get me going! Your review sounds about right in my opinion but you obviously have to hear for yourself and see the keppler graphs.

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

Divorce fidelity o/96 are a wide speaker and they image great

[@EddyTeetree]

Whenever I first see the Wharfdale logo I see a crown in 3D and it takes a while to sort the W out from that image. Was that intentional? Are you guys ever going to do an hifi quiz nite at the local (really miss English pubs)? so many questions haha. I have a Leak stereo 20. Bought one sold it missed it bought another! Nice speakers. I like anything that makes a pleasant noise when I turn it on ;-D

[@__DMC__82]

Never noticed that till you said it

[@adeypoos]

I’ve heard these and they are a very nice. Great construction and they have a very civilised sound which are great for vocals and a warm instrumental texture. Slightly soft in the bass and a rolled-off treble but very pleasant to listen to. They aren’t difficult to drive but respond differently to amp choice. Unsurprisingly perhaps, they worked well with an Audiolab 9000A.

[@chefren77]

But whar about the Volvo?

[@RodneyYon-k1u]

Like them looking to replace my old monitor audio 352

[@FransbertSchermerMV]

Could you do the Spendor Classic 3/1. These did not get the attention they deserve I think.

[@DaleWhitlam-ni5wp]

Super Lintons next please.

[@TheAgeOfAnalog]

Great… super

[@705johnnyboy]

just talk crap thats the bit i like lol...

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

2 smaller port give a deeper bass

[@razisn]

You talking crap for too long is why we watch you, otherwise we would watch Darko.

[@r423fplip]

He is the master of crap.

[@johntucker5994]

Yes, that's part of your show's charm.

[@G8YTZ]

The problem is, they made in China, make them in the UK and I’d buy a pair for my daughter. Putting a Union Jack on the back is misleading in the extreme.

[@MrVinylista]

Yes, but they'd be closer to £2,000 if made here. Sad but true. We have some of the highest energy prices in the developed world, thanks to successive British governments, who seem hellbent on destroying manufacturing here.

[@rulerofrecords1]

Gentlemen - I do have a great soft spot for this channel and cherish the information, experience, entertainment provided by the original Dynamic Duo. But in all seriousness - please, please do not make this one more "9 out of 10" Channel. Fucking please! Cheers Uli

[@MrVinylista]

I take your point, but please don't get the wrong impression... We don't just review any old thing and give it a 9, but instead we pre-select the really good stuff to feature on the channel, so the scores are generally going to be high. We do give lots of 8s and even occasionally 10s, and Mike and I often give different scores. So I think there is some nuance to our scoring.

[@reinhartfrais8549]

Hi, what's a good speaker for jazz and chamber musik ( vocals) 500 to 1000 £ thanks

[@analoglooney]

I'd check out the Quad S2's. The ribbon tweeter will lend itself to your taste in music.

[@reinhartfrais8549]

Thanks I will !

[@analoglooney]

@@reinhartfrais8549 🙂👍

[@nasdkhan254]

They look nice & looking forward to Super Linton

[@jameshutton5979]

If they're a bit soft with a rolled off treble, then why bother.

[@analoglooney]

Good point!😆

[@QuoPaperPlane]

What is about geeks talking hifi rather than just listening to your music? Straight line v tone controls and all that bollox.😅

[@eddiebaby22]

They are ugly but if they're good they're good.

[@erwinvangrinsven9345]

Kamaz trucks win the Paris Dakar rally2️⃣

[@jameshutton5979]

Hate to moan lads but for almost 25 minutes, you didn't tell us much about these speakers.

[@mikrophonie5633]

Rush sucks.

[@Hi-FiRiff]

Is that an Americanism meaning brilliant?

[@raynerstuelgalid]

This is stupid. The speakers are not even shown fully. Too cheap to do B-rolls?

[@razisn]

Watch Darko instead...

[@analogueman5364]

I think you maybe missing the point of this channel.

[@MrVinylista]

You're right, we are far too cheap to do B-rolls!