TikTok is Not Going to Vine…Here’s Why

I feel like the whole world completely misunderstands what happened with vine. Maybe I’ll make a real video about it someday.

[@futureruler1]

Hey! Worked at Vine. Your analysis is largely correct. I did want to add a little color - Vine was incredibly small, less than 50 employees. We knew we had to break from the six second format, and even got an incremental iteration out there that no one seems to remember called "Watch More." Sadly, the degree to which we could iterate was limited both by our headcount and the fear that if we changed everything all at once, we would lose. TikTok is very similar now UX-wise to designs we passed around internally, but given how we boxed ourselves in, I don't know if we could have ever gotten there.

[@hankschannel]

It's wild to me that they closed down a FIFTY PERSON company rather than try to keep it doing something! I HAVE FIFTY EMPLOYEES!

[@futureruler1]

@@hankschannel Right so, Vine was acquired to be Twitter's video platform. However, the founders fought to keep the Vine brand separate post-acquisition. This forced Twitter to build their own video product anyway. I'm no Twitter exec, so I don't know for certain, but on top of everything else I think the final nail in the coffin was the fact that we were distracting from Twitter's big push to video with no upside for them. Twitter also (rightly) believed we were all more loyal to Vine than to them and, thus, would not reassign us. We were given the opportunity to re-interview! Lol, but of course nobody did that.

[@jenni1567]

@@futureruler1 thank you for your insight! Out of interest, what do you do today? I understand if you dont want to share that though

[@futureruler1]

@@jenni1567 I can't give too much detail, but my team builds tools to protect the internet itself. Suppression is on the rise and we're working hard as we can to mitigate it.

[@jenni1567]

@@futureruler1 that sounds super interesting!! I'm gonna think of you as a Internet protection hero now B)

[@rajsite]

"Don't let me get used to it or I'll be frustrated when you change something" feels like it's own video on designing social platforms.

[@BeautifulEarthJa]

Fb

[@Clarity520]

Relatable

[@Nelski11401]

@@BeautifulEarthJa facebook definitely does that a lot

[@alixnight5318]

@@BeautifulEarthJa Facebook is constantly changing and AB testing. That’s why the UX is often a bit annoying and inconsistent

[@icelandicfaeinPNW]

Tumblr?

[@dominictemple]

I must say Hank, as a guy in his late 30s to one in his early 40, you really do make understanding the culture and business of web platforms much easier to grasp, even if it is just on a basic level. Fantastic video as always.

[@anjulikamins6420]

I agree I'm a rube to most of it and I appreciate him barney styling it for us older kids 😉

[@yeetyeet7070]

what do you mean 'basic level'? It doesn't go much deeper than this, the business world isn't that complicated, it's not science, it's a scam

[@aekaydubs]

Firmly seconded. I have a literal Bachelor’s degree in New Media and Hank regularly teaches me stuff I didn’t know, or makes things clearer

[@pendlera2959]

​@@yeetyeet7070 That's a little rude. Different people struggle with different subjects. Obviously business is complicated or so many businesses wouldn't be having trouble keeping up with changes in tech. Also, there are a lot of contradictory philosophies and perspectives on business, and it's not easy to figure out which ones are most accurate. I do agree that current popular business philosophy (unregulated free market capitalism) is mostly about scamming people. Some people don't even think it's possible to scam others if the transaction was "voluntary" (with a very narrow definition of involuntary).

[@okso48299]

What do his and your respective ages have to do with anything

[@98Hbrown]

The fact that Hank uploaded this from his phone, unedited and in bad lighting, is yet another reason that he deeply understands why these content creation platforms work and what brings people here.

[@DevynWarren]

Okay for real though. I posted a video to my tiktok yesterday that I spent 45 minutes editing. it was of window crystals. it got 300 views. i have 146k followers. make it make sense.

[@alixnight5318]

@@DevynWarren Window crystals sound pretty niche to me

[@TheTexas1994]

I think we are so nostalgic about Vine. Vine had a lot of problems and they only allowed up to 6 second videos. It was so hard to find content and it was definitely an annoying platform

[@austinholmes96]

I agree! I found all the best Vines after Vine had ended from KZbin compilations

[@danieljensen2626]

I never actually used the platform, but the content that made it into KZbin compilations was great, haha.

[@namegirl12]

i think the only 6 second thing was good. get in and out. 15 second tiktoks are almost always better than 1 min and 3 min tiktoks (imo).

[@tacobellemel]

I was on Vine and am not on TikTok. John's point about the difficulty of a brand deal with only six seconds certainly rings true. I will say I find that only having six seconds I think required some creativity around comedic timing, that I find TikTok doesn't have quite as much of. I've watched a fair number of TikToks that would have been funnier or more enjoyable if the person didn't keep going. That said there was plenty of terrible and overdone content on Vine as well. It was difficult to find the truly funny and genius Vines if you didn't know where to go beforehand.

[@AnastasiaPoulos2292]

@@namegirl12 As someone who creates content on TikTok, 15sec videos are fun and great, but like there's only so much you can do in 15sec. It goes fast. Having even slightly longer formats like 1-3min gives creators so much more flexibility in their content which keeps making content more fun and keeps us coming back to the platform. At least that's how it is for me.

[@leollen3190]

My biggest issue with tiktok is the moderation, it's not transparent. It's also not fairly applied and there's almost no way to appeal the decisions.

[@isaackvasager9957]

It's a Chinese run company. Don't expect much.

[@ReasonMakes]

What do you expect from something owned and operated by a literal genocidal dictatorship. You know you're participating in normalizing that by using the platform too, right? Like you say, the moderation is horrible. And it's that way for a reason. They funnel money into this company so that they can influence westerners to be more sympathetic to CCP China. What we're talking about here is a second Holocaust. Look up the Uyghur genocide going on in Xinjiang. It's really sad that so many "Nerdfighters" gleefully support this racism, but that's the human race for you I guess.

[@1224chrisng]

tiktok is literally run by communists, if the Soviets ran an American newspaper, I doubt they'd talk about Chernobyl

[@namegirl12]

lol the other replies to this comment are insane

[@a2pabmb2]

This was part of the thesis of the last video so... idk, watch that?

[@sarahrohrersy]

Hot take: I think TikTok couldn’t have been as popular as it is without the pandemic. The aspect of rapidly evolving trends on TikTok was really good for us as humans during the pandemic when everything around us suddenly stopped. The reason we have stayed with the platform is because the trends have not stopped evolving so quickly so there is always new content and we don’t want to miss out on the pop culture.

[@spect80r]

That's a pretty lukewarm take at this point.

[@isaackvasager9957]

I think TikTok will be dead in a year or two.

[@samg3456]

tiktok was huge before covid. everyone in my school had it and had stopped questioning it. tons of other influencers had already joined, it was a fact of life to the extent many other content apps were

[@conman1395]

Nothing hot about that take.

[@isaackvasager9957]

@@samg3456 in your school...yes. But during the pandemic TikTok became the norm for older and less tech savvy people as well. I have a mechanic friend that can barely tell what way is up, but he fucking loves TikTok. (For the record, I think it's crap)

[@danieljensen2626]

If anything I feel like TikTok actively tries to discourage you from watching the creators you want to follow. I basically just want a subscription feed which is just the creators I follow in order of what they made most recently. And/or notifications that were actually up to date (I mostly find that when I get a notification the video was actually posted the previous day, in fact I frequently get notifications for videos I already watched the previous day).

[@rahbeeuh]

Good to know it's not just me. It's not good that it happens tho. I think it's done on purpose to keep us on the app for longer but that's a surefire way to get me to stop using the app

[@LeoStaley]

I follow hank but tiktok has never shown him In my fyp. It doesn't even show him in my following tab.

[@cassidysbookmark5834]

I’ve found that if I like their videos and don’t follow them, every video will show up. as soon as I follow them, they stop showing up in my feeds.

[@TheR971]

I follow andrew yang, the who and hank green. My feed is full of 16 year olds dancing : /

[@tiffanyhayes4014]

They have a following feature that only shows people you follow

[@rib_rob_personal]

I think you're right. So long as Tiktok keeps changing up their platform to keep it fresh they'll stick around. However, they're going to reach a plateau at some point with how much influence they have or what creators are able to do. If they want to reach higher they need to be paying creators a percentage, not a fixed rate for all of them. Doing that creates stability for the creators and longevity for the platform. Personally I would only ever use tiktok as a way to advertise if I can't make money off of it.

[@isaackvasager9957]

Most creators will not want to have to keep learning the new methods to stay at the top of the algorithms. Especially when they aren't making money. Constant changes won't keep it fresh, it will kill it.

[@imaginaryguide1895]

Tumblr is a good example of what kind of platform you create when creators are unable (or have little ability to) monetize -- make of this outcome what you will.

[@coagulatedsalts4711]

i agree, tiktok is better for music and advertisements. as long as music can make money off tiktok then it’ll stick around

[@isaackvasager9957]

@@coagulatedsalts4711 how does music make money off TikTok? This entire video explains how you don't make money off TikTok.

[@emmakane6848]

@A. Demaske Tumblr is a social media platform where the culture that it birthed is actively hostile to any and all attempts at money making on it. Some people are probably able to make money (through merch) but the attempt made with Post+ goes to show how the user base does not want to be TicTok, KZbin, Facebook, or anything else. It’s the hellsite (affectionate) precisely because it goes against all of the stuff that they do. Obviously besides the porn and tag bans, but those where caused by Apple threatening to pull them from the App Store.

[@Oli.V]

I’m always blown away by home many people look back on vine so fondly, especially when I know most of them weren’t there at the end. The last year to a few months of vine sucked. People were leaving the platform en mass long before the app shut down and the only people that remained were the viners people still hate. The platform had failed, it just wasn’t fun anymore. People always ask “what happened? If vine was so funny how did it die?” It’s because it wasn’t funny, and if hadn’t been in a while.

[@BlackOpsMaster10263]

Doesn't help that most of the big creators for quite a while had no jokes other than bite-sized racism.

[@andywood6376]

In fairness, a lot of us only got Vines filtered through a secondary platform so even if there was a drop off in content, it wasn't noticeable to those if use who only consumed it through a filter.

[@Oli.V]

@@andywood6376 and most of the vines that are really well now (epcot ball comes to mind) we’re popular on the actual platform at all. The public perception was so wildly different than what the platform really was

[@BrianaLynn7]

Maybe im wrong but i think vine was a platform that hosted A LOT of great gems that we will never forget. Little 6 second quotes/memes and moments that became so important to us. But many of those were from random people, and went viral due to the randomness of them and just how funny they were. If you watch the funniest vine compilations, it brings nostalgia, but I bet if you actually went back to using the app you'd probably laugh a lot less scrolling.

[@Oli.V]

@@BrianaLynn7 I mentioned it in another comment, but most of the vines in those compilations were only popular on KZbin. Most of them never got on the comedy page and never had there fair shot until they were put in complications. While I love those vines dearly but I still sometimes find myself nostalgic for a vine that never existed because of them.

[@IzzyIkigai]

100% agree on the both have their hard shortcomings. I feel like TikTok isn't as bad as Vine in Terms of business viability but unless TikTok changes it's UX drastically the all-algorithmic approach will fall short with a lot of people at some point. It's not just creator stability and the fact that creators are often just abused as cheap workforce without them even realising(which goes for basically all platforms), it's also how well users are able to find, organise and manage content. Maybe that's just me but right now I'm experiencing death by a thousand cuts when it comes to the Tiktok experience. Everything on Tiktok is very ephemoral and things like accidentally reloading the FYP when watching something I'm interested in(good look ever finding that again) or finding a "resolution in part 2" from something taken months ago on a creator with thousands of videos is just a very frustrating experience. So while the overall experience is better in the consumer information based approach(which is needed for the ads and creepy in it's own right when you think about it for more than two seconds) is better than the creator-focused approach they both are just on extremely problematic ends of a spectrum.

[@cubeofcheese5574]

Yeah finding videos on purpose is very difficult in tik tok and very easy on KZbin

[@Brendon1106]

Also, just to add another nail to vines coffin, don't forget how expensive video hosting was back then compared the hosting/serving costs that exist today for a TikTok. There's probably a magnitude cost drop per second of video served

[@asdfrozen]

I always saw TikTok as more of "Twitter except exclusively video". So places where people post their "hot takes" or promote their other stuff.

[@DaniAlexandria]

I will never understand why it is somehow okay to only pay creators from specific countries. You need diversity of thought and culture and experience and creators from other countries times and content is just as valuable

[@drasco61084]

They don't want to pay the eeeeeeebil "foreigners", as though western folk are inherently morally good or something... Facebook never marks people safe from being bombed by the USA and is always warning when a post is from a different country ooOooo suspicious....

[@danieljensen2626]

There are probably some legal complications where it's easier just to pay people in a limited number of countries. (Also if they can get away with not paying people, of course they will do that.)

[@ChrisYevrah]

There is a lot of hurdles, logistically and legally in each country. Many Countries just aren't worth the effort.

[@applepie9806]

It's mainly the size of the market I think. They don't do it for small countries (like mine)

[@ziglaus]

The thing is ... its not. Just as valuable, as you say. It is mathematically provable less valuable. thats why they don't do it

[@vraisairs9201]

The way that TikTok has changed the watching habits of my friends, I hate TikTok so much. As someone who doesn’t use TikTok, the constancy of overhearing 15-30 second videos over and over and my roommates quoting TikToks to each other drives me up the wall But you’re right, TikTok isn’t going anywhere

[@metadoxy]

I feel like TikTok will be a place where creators advertise the stuff they do on other platforms. I’ve already seen creators shift this direction as they gain audience; they use tiktok to tell people about their twitch streams & KZbin channels.

[@cubeofcheese5574]

That is how a lot of people use Twitter. And Twitter has basically no monetization opportunities. So yeah

[@TheR971]

@@cubeofcheese5574 I think the analogy of twitter and tik tok is a pretty decent one. Short form content that is easily findable.

[@sixtowock]

I do the same thing. I'm an aspiring content creator and I love making tiktoks but as Hank said, gotta pay the bills somehow. So without proper monetization, tiktok is mostly good to gain exposure and bring people over to my youtube/twitch/instagram, especially with the random bans going on, knowing I could lose my account any second. I don't feel safe there.

[@skullsaintdead]

As a marketer, I agree that's what it does now, but I don't think this is sustainable. I don't use TikTok or Vine (but do watch skit compilations from both on Ytbe), but IMHO, KZbin Shorts will dominate them all. Why have two logins, two apps when you only need one? Your fave content creators push you to their KZbin pages, so why leave Ytbe? It'll go the same way as Yelp - Google Reviews now dominate. And Ytbe has streaming added too (which I way prefer, less irritating/attention grabbing), cutting into Twitch streams.

[@cubeofcheese5574]

@@TheR971 I would say easily discoverable by algorithm. But actually trying to find a specific video on tiktok is really hard

[@ashleyy6329]

I wish this and his last video were trending, both here and on Twitter. This needs to be seen by so many more people

[@kaemincha]

I think people don't understand what happened to Vine, leading them to their own conclusions. Like you said, it was a combo of factors from a Friends type of demand for money from top creators, the limitations of the platform itself, and poor monetization opportunities obv.

[@Patmorgan235Us]

Also competition from other platforms like Instagram which added some vine like features.

[@kaemincha]

@@Patmorgan235Us for sure! bigger platforms copying the innovations of smaller platforms is also a part of it

[@SeekersofUnity]

This old man knows young person culture shockingly well. Glad to have you and your thoughtful musings.

[@EmF95573]

How fucking young are you that you think Hank is an old man? Negative 30 years old?

[@davetoms1]

Hank Green is 41 years old The median age of all Americans is ~38 years old The average KZbin user is in their 20s According to the numbers Hank Green IS an old man

[@SeekersofUnity]

@@davetoms1 Thanks Dave. Numbers don’t lie. 27 year old youtuber here. Just in case it wasn’t clear from my comment, I love Hank ✌🏼

[@davetoms1]

Cheers @@SeekersofUnity , I thought you loved him. I do too :)

[@beatm6948]

@@EmF95573 he's absolutely an old man in terms of pop culture. Not generally, but in terms of pop culture he is.

[@janehowlett5158]

Hank, a while a ago you said something along the lines of “TikTokers today are hoping to to make it enough from TikTok to get to KZbin someday, which was like how when people like me started on KZbin we were hoping to get to the television industry someday”. Do you remember saying this, and if so, do you think this is still true of how young people on TikTok think?

[@deanc9453]

+

[@capucined7574]

+++

[@Jiihariial]

+

[@roujin518]

These are obviously very different mediums with different amount of barriers of entry. Which is why obviously trying to go from youtube to TV was always a bit of a fools errand. Where as going from Tictok to KZbin is as simple as reuploading your video's to the youtube shorts, and or editing them together to make larger video's for youtube as a whole. After all there really isn't anything stopping you from uploading to multiple sites. I think what people are kinda forgetting is that streaming platforms don't have to be always a direct competition to each other. People stream on twitch, and then make full videos on youtube all the time. There is no reason that this couldn't happen with tictok.

[@verdatum]

I appreciate you explaining your experience as a business through Complexly. It gives insight to the complexities of entrepreneurship that are not always easy to find. I really think it would be nice if you could add to the educational content of TikTok as a platform, but you make a very valid point about the need to cover expenses. Misinformation is much cheaper to produce than is verified research. Not to mention that it's easier to make misinformation viral.

[@roseashford5143]

A lie can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on. -Discworld Terry Pratchett

[@isaacsutton1162]

Great analysis! I wonder how all this will effect the culture of the platform? Right now the barrier for entry on Tiktok feels incredibly low and the connection to creators is hyper personal. As a long time youtube kid its very 2014-y, where people know they can making a living creating online, and a few big corporate entities have entered the game, but everyone is sorta bumbling through it. If these creators get more money, and their production values go up, and the business-ness of it all becomes more apparent, does that take away from the experience? Does it increase the divide between audience and creator in a negative way? Does it discourage aspiring creators in favor of encouraging those who grew early? How does the community aspect change? Not saying TikTok shouldn't pay its creators more. They HAVE to if they want to maintain their growth. But what that does to the "feeling" of TikTok will be interesting to watch.

[@kf10147]

Given the usual handheld nature of vertical video, I doubt businesses will broadly adopt tripod nice camera video which will combat a lot of that sentiment. Yes production values will increase, but I think they'll do it a way that feels true to the platform. Especially given then algorithm continuing to deliver good,amateur content to people.

[@wgoode97]

I wonder if the shift comes when significant amounts of people are using professional/desktop video production tools rather than the built-in TikTok creator tools.

[@rVnsunshine]

I also think that tiktok being a hobbyist- app is one of its most successful aspects! Most of the people on there are not “influencers”- they’re regular people who are sharing knowledge and information to other real regular people. I think it’s absolutely a fantastic way to disseminate information between people, and the fact that it’s so easy to be a regular tiktok user and make a video about something is part of why it works. You never see this with KZbin, because the majority of people who watch KZbin don’t make KZbin videos (and even if they do, unless they are high production value-quality, they won’t be seen by anyone.) tiktok isn’t like this, it encourages and makes it very very easy for hobbyists to add tiktok to their everyday internet lives.

[@crypticcorgi8280]

The idea that _"should we pay you as much if you get rewarded in an audience and neat new friends."_ Is definitely getting into _"paying artist in exposure"_ territory in logic. These are the things that are Supposed to come to you naturally by doing a good job. References and reputation is not something some one gifts to you. The person themselves made that happen. Employers love to say "it is an opportunity." As if they are doing the creator a service for receiving a service they wanted. It is all so manipulative and messed up.

[@miki_cz]

Wow I'm so early that there wasn't even a thumbnail

[@TheLetterbomber]

idk if Hank needs me enabling him, but this is really making me want that 60+ minute in-depth exploration of this stuff.

[@SeekersofUnity]

“We will be ok.” - Hank Green

[@SwashbucklerSound]

So interesting seeing you perform without the cuts. While the pacing wouldn't work for the main channel, this is a really relatable side of you that is cool to see. Thank you for this.

[@geeksdo1tbetter]

rambly Hank is excellent!

[@COLORMIND.mp4]

i know theres no way Hank has any extra time left in his schedule but if hankschannel became his long from video essay persona….i would pay. just saying :)

[@curioustill]

Honestly, I think hankschannel is ALREADY his long-form video eassy channel ... (about online video and the social internet)

[@JennaGetsCreative]

I honestly keep forgetting about TikTok for long periods because it's not a platform that pulls me, but when I do remember it that comment about cross-posting to Instagram and such is spot on. I don't create exclusively for TikTok because there's no incentive to do so.

[@Amazedchili]

I know I’m late to the comment section, but I really want to see more of Hank’s one take videos. I know it might have been multiple takes but if it was it really doesn’t show. It’s surprisingly well put together for something without jump cuts. The way he can share his thoughts is something I aspire to :)

[@hazelalperin3816]

Vine is such a mystery to me, I was never on it and it was never really explained. To this day I’m in the dark as to what the point was and what exactly it was so this is really interesting.

[@isaackvasager9957]

I feel the same way about TikTok. It just seems like another useless media outlet that will be a flash in the pan at the end of the day.

[@danieljensen2626]

@@isaackvasager9957 At this point TikTok is pretty well established, especially with gen z. I think there's a pretty good chance it's not going anywhere, unless Facebook buys it or something.

[@culwin]

It was just short video clips, similar to Tik-Tok. The main thing that makes Tik-Tok more successful, is the "algorithm" that decides what to show people - mostly kids, who might look at a video clip at school in between classes, or whatever. It seems to be way better at pushing content that its viewers want to see.

[@isaackvasager9957]

@@danieljensen2626 "well established" with a group of people that have an attention span of a gnat isn't really saying much. They will move on when the next shiny thing comes along.

[@wezul]

I was never on vine, and I am not on tiktok, so I really appreciate the insight into those platforms. Thank you Hank!

[@liammode]

I was a big vine user. I would agree that it's main problem was the discovery feature. If you wanted to find the under current of amazing creators (and there were a lot of them, like everyone in camp unplug for example) you would have to scroll a long time to find them and just slowly build out your follower list based on who they collabed with. If you were new to the platform it would just be the "too big to fail" creators who were continuing to create vines of lesser and lesser quality. At the end of the day Vine just didn't find a way to integrate ads and be profitable which is ultimately what lead to its death. Tik Tok doesn't have a problem being profitable so I agree it isn't going anywhere.

[@kjl3080]

This seems oddly personal even though it’s not, I wonder if it’s the camera angle

[@bubblegumplastic]

Yeah. It kinda feels like we're hanging out in his bedroom, chatting about things

[@bigbundle3223]

Its unedited, in a personal space, about something that affects him directly. It IS personal.

[@mayhappy7587]

As someone who wants to go into content creation, I find your videos very helpful and interesting. Thank you Hank!!

[@terryenby2304]

I recently found this channel via your shorts, and I am loving uncut, open Hank as much as SciShow Hank :)

[@RIPmercury]

it's so nice to hear you talk hank. you explain things in exactly the way i need

[@IWishIWereAwesome]

Also the personal opinion of a casual observer - what is most appealing about TT is that it's hobbyist creators and there's very low barrier to entry. A quick video from an actual professional in a field (who doesn't need to double check sources bc they live and breathe...or write them) is kinda great! There's already platforms for professional creators and if someone gains popularity on TT and wants to transition to full time content creation, they are probably best served by a different platform. I for one think it'll lose its charm if it tries to turn into a platform for full time creators. Y'all are great and all but it's nice to hear from "real" people too.

[@CrossoverGenius]

This is really wild to read, because I have been on youtube for so long, that used to be what we said about OG youtubers. It used to be a bunch of teenagers and young adults with webcams and iMovie or WMM, or as you said, hobbyist creators with low barrier to entry… and then it evolved.

[@IWishIWereAwesome]

@Kayla Ess totally agree!! I've been watching youtube(rs) since 2008, but when the popularity of the platform and monetization became such that people made it their job, it changed the content on the platform drastically. In some ways, tiktok feels like a return to chaotic early-day youtube. And..it's kinda fun?

[@daylite34]

I totally agree with this. I know it sucks because people don’t get paid and don’t stay for long term after the hobby ends. But I actually don’t mind that. I don’t mind if the creators I watch are short lived. If I want to follow someone for a long time I usually go to their Instagram or KZbin.

[@eileenh4927]

As an outside observer, it's hard for me to watch these people quit their "real" jobs and be a full time content creator. Especially if their content relies on their career

[@daylite34]

@@morganl5875 Yeah this is the thing that gives me mixed feelings. I wish there was a way to keep the authenticity while not exploiting people.

[@KooblayKhan]

A thing that scares me about what Hank said, and a thing that makes me hopeful. 1. I am scared that the success I have had on Tiktok is ethereal, especially when I feel like I have found something that is successful and brings me joy. If Tiktok goes, what happens to this other content? 2. Tiktok clearly has an exploitable weakness in what makes it competitive against other online short video platforms. Tiktok has proved that one can make a very interesting short video platform built on some of the history of Vine, and without plugging up that competitive hole, there will be other locations that my content can survive on.

[@DanteneNyx]

Petition to have Hank sign off all of his videos with “we’ll be okay”?

[@Quzxpon]

Love your thoughts on "social media". You really seem to have been paying attention to it all unfold

[@katelynfields2345]

From what I've seen people who want to cultivate an audience can use TikTok as a tool to reach their target audience more easily thanks to the amazing algorithm and the more easily digestible short form content. This can then direct people to their KZbin channel, podcast, other socials, etc. But people who exclusively make TikToks, like you said, have to be hobbyists because they're not making enough money for it to be anything bigger.

[@zebedeesummers4413]

Yeah, it could have a niche for exposure only. Short form content is in many ways perfect to see many creators and discover who you may wish to follow. That Being said TikTok does not seem to want to be a secondary it even tertiary platform. It is worth mentioning quality short form content is a very different skill from being a successful twitch streamer.

[@Mike-px6pg]

This is like the tradition of comedians doing open mics and 5 - 10 min pieces as ensembles prior to a proper proper set. It's all moving away from the starting point

[@deep_dusk]

Very eloquent Hank, really enjoy these deep dives about platforms we all use but maybe don't think as in depth about. Looking forward to further deep dives 👌😌

[@judithwalker3600]

Keep teaching! I love you Hank and commenters! I'm learning SO much about so many things! I'm 61 yrs old and sitting here in hospital (with laptop/free wifi) yet it's the best! What a wonderfully exciting time to be alive! JWST, FTL, etc...................

[@dylanchimento8557]

I’ve seen your shorts and love this shit. Real 2011 energy.

[@aliciarobert5900]

I just wanted to say -- as someone without a TikTok, it was SO great to hear you make money from instagram reels. I was worried I was "bumming views" haha Thank you for all of this breakdown, I love your content so much!

[@writerwhowrites101]

I think that inability to count on your followers to see/engage with your content is one of tiktok's biggest problems with creator retention. Like, anecdotally, the most common reason I see good/popular creators leave the platform is they go through months of little visibility on fyp and the only videos that get traction tend to be the easily digestible memes that probably got them the audience initially but isn't where their passion lies. I would be fine staying a hobbyist content creator and even losing some money on videos every now and then if the reach of my videos had grown proportionally to my audience size.

[@brit4170]

Thank you so much for expanding on this!

[@mcflyloveme]

'I might be putting too much weight on how I understand things' - what a fantastic sentiment.

[@zeam-h3133]

4:48-5:30 love the way you phrased this, I'd never thought about it that way

[@maike__-]

"15 seconds ago" wowwww I wasn't active on that side of the internet when vine was a thing, but I love that people still love something so much even though it's been gone for years

[@splendidfd6848]

"Creating ways for creators to make their own money and taking a cut" is the Twitch model. It's not great, but, as a consumer I don't know if I'd use Twitch as much if it was monetised in a different way.

[@umey3445]

The twitch sub split is absolutely ridiculous. A a favourable percentage for them on advertising is fine I guess, they made the platform and supply the ads and shit. It’s a little messed up that they will still run ads on small streams and not pay them until they are big enough though. A 50/50 split on a subscription to a specific streamer is absurd and makes zero sense, they’re just collecting money. I know there is a 70/30 sub split for larger creators who have “earned” their place or bring in enough cash. The twitch model is dying. The fact is that they have still never made a profit after all these years. They are spending more and more resources creating features to squeeze money out of existing viewers rather than trying to appeal to new ones or attract and nurture up and coming streamers. Some of their largest creators are moving to platforms that can afford to pay them what they are worth and twitch does not care because they think they’re too big to fail and they’re the only platform out there. A lot of them are getting more viewers too.

[@crazydragy4233]

@@umey3445 Hubris is the mortal enemy of function.

[@ellie_m_j]

I agree. Tik tok is completely different as a platform and culture

[@jessical4866]

Hank’s “we will be okay” at the end…. I have too many emotions from four words.

[@vicktoryscreech]

something about the we will be okay at the end was extremely reassuring

[@rcusick2465]

Thank you for explaining why your content has been shared to multiple platforms of late. I know there's been some misunderstanding, but this makes total sense.

[@DylanFergusC]

It's interesting to hear this. I still use Tumblr and plan to use is for a long time, but I appreciate so much the blogs that arre bringing me tiktok content, because it's Such Good Content. Much love

[@geeksdo1tbetter]

This. I enjoy when someone curates TT content for me and brings it to a space I'm already in.

[@anjulikamins6420]

I really appreciate you giving a breakdown cause I missed this era and I was wondering if there was a correlary (sp) thing happening

[@IWishIWereAwesome]

Do you think there's an inherent lifespan in the popularity of social media platforms? Because as a casual observer...it seems like there is. Platforms explode on the scene, become the place to be, then fizzle out as the next thing becomes popular. So if tiktok is thinking "we're here for a good time, not a long time", their actions make sense. (KZbin is an exception in ways but youtube is a complex example and I'd argue it's technologically more than a social media platform).

[@isaackvasager9957]

This take is the only one I've seen that makes sense to me about TikTok. They will be gone before we know it, but will have made a lot of money their Chinese investors in the mean time.

[@k20nutz]

Adding to what you said they could just be reinvesting that money into multiple new platforms to see what catches on next because of the fad mentality.

[@kf10147]

I don't there has to be a lifespan. Social media sites can occupy stable niches like most blogging sites have settled into. They only have to die if they refuse to accept that loss of popularity doesn't equal death.

[@kaemincha]

As with most things, yeah. But some last longer than others due to different reasons that definitely impact the longevity of the platform.

[@isaackvasager9957]

@@kf10147 investors don't pay for "stable". That's not how capitalism works.

[@Noreen_Ni_Riain]

huge fan of your doomsday clock talk, hank!

[@charlykelley4801]

great video, but i especially loved how your comment at the end made me retroactively notice how pleasant it was that this vid had early vlogbrothers vibes

[@ordan787]

Gosh, I love hearing hank just chat away about his thoughts

[@hellyeahjeremy]

No, Hank. You are absolutely right! If tiktok wants to be only a hobbyist app, then they can do that but they should be honest with that. they’re cons. a lot of huge creators are posting on Friends Only and we’re all literally thinking of leaving bc of most of the reasons you mentioned.

[@yeahyeahitskelsey1772]

intrigued by the concept of hank making insightful daily vlogs about the ecosystem of tiktok.... on youtube

[@JoshuaFriedman_]

Wow I'm ridiculously early. Thanks for all the amazing content Hank

[@expensivepink7]

i'm sorry if this is dramatic and i'm not even trying to ego stroke but seeing someone with actual critical thought on the internet like this almost makes me emotional like thank u for actually thinking about things deeply with nuance and sharing them, hank

[@hippymoustacherides]

I remember years back hearing that the famous vine creators were going on tour like musicians to different venues and thought what an interesting concept. Next thing I knew vine was no more! Makes more sense after seeing this vid thanks Hank.

[@fuurinkazan164]

Hank, with content as good as this you don't need to worry about lighting ;)

[@sensualsoup]

the best part of Vine is/was KZbin compilations "Vines that Cured my Psoriasis" etc.

[@andec6240]

Hank, you’re the best ⭐️. Thank you

[@sunnysundaie5037]

I only have to rewind your videos once to understand the things I accidentally zoned out for!!!!

[@ahhhfakemonsters]

realizing now that as much as i enjoyed vines I didn't spend that much time on Vine the website. they were mostly shared on other websites and that doesn't take a website very far

[@LustStarrr]

I'd love to see Means TV - a worker-owned video site/app - implement a short video feature, to offer an alternative to TikTok, & to ensure creators are properly remunerated for their work.

[@MrWoodii]

Hank's the type of guy to be 42 and yet be relatable to people who are 24.

[@RyWilliamz]

It’s crazy how much the app has grown in the two years I was on it and now I want out… I want to make content on KZbin and make silly videos on tiktok again

[@varadaagarwal4859]

Alright, but this just made my day so much better!!

[@meomeo3510]

Semi-related, but there was a feature I miss having on Tiktok. It was the education toggle for tiktok. I can see why maybe it didnt work or was problematic, but it was a good way, at least I found, to see a specific type of content. It made me enjoy the app more because I was able to switch up what my fyp looked like & the experience I wanted on the app that particular day. I kind of wish that returned alongside Tiktok becoming more sustainable for creators, because I feel like it's a great format for reaching people & providing a way to access that specific type of content

[@TheSUPERHAPPY1]

Thank you for the great videos. I love hearing what you say. I think you need to be the head of the TikTok Creators Guild.

[@theoremipsum]

It's nice to get these reminders that Hank, along with the million and a half other hats he wears, is an expert in media/content creation.

[@Flojer0]

Not good lighting, but at least it's landscape. The insider insight is quite intriguing.

[@NGEternal]

Hankler is very skilled at video logging. It is almost as if he has been doing it for years.

[@christie8493]

I haven’t started the creator fund yet because it is kind of a hobby for me. It’s more like a creative outlet. And then I don’t have to worry about making 3 videos per day. Just a tool I can pick up if I’m feeling it. Which could be a month later. My monetization comes from other places.

[@zabzabcanfly]

I think you're pretty damn spot on with this hank. Tiktok really needs to change or they might not fizzle out the same way as vines but they won't ever achieve the longevity that youtube has mustered. They need to change or die and if tiktok dies only the minority will mourn its death.

[@CaiRobinson]

Wouldnt the constant turnover of creators (because people cant make a living there) mean its always a second or third place in peoples mind. The kinda of place you post the stuff you already made for other places.

[@AndyMyers]

I think if KZbin split shorts into its own app that has the creative tools and discovery to compete with TikTok then TikTok will have to respond in terms of what the creators get.

[@shayneweyker]

Audio and lighting were fine. Getting a mic arm and clamp on the end of it to hold the phone steady and at a good angle might be worth installing by the bed or wherever you usually do these.

[@samrusoff]

"you can't live on this pay, but you're desperate enough to take anything, and there are plenty more people to replace you when you demand equitable pay in 6 months" is exactly the revolving door that allows poverty wages all across the US. socialism for the rich, capitalism (aka race to the bottom) for the working class.

[@TheHennes36]

Super interesting - is your channel mainly about these "behind the scenes" topics of social platforms and being a creator?

[@prongs4137]

The child's babble in the background made me smile involuntarily.

[@ivankhomenko701]

Hi Hank! Thanks for this video it is quite interesting to learn those details regarding Vine. I was wondering whether you could do a video regarding the situation in Ukraine now - I believe there are some things which is needed to be pronounced openly. Anyway, thanks again for the great channel!

[@cptntwinkletoes]

You need to write a book on the social internet... oh wait.

[@0mn1vore]

Just subscribed, so I'm still getting used to you *not* saying "Good morning John," at the beginning.

[@ColinandSamir]

Professor Hank

[@keenheat3335]

short video format is kind of interesting if you ignore the direct monetization aspect a bit and look at it as an experiment in communication format. It force you to "show" instead of "tell" your content, so you can't just talk your way through it. Non-verbal communication become even more important. The audience's prior consumption could also become a valuable asset (if you do highlight reel type of tiktok) I can just imagine the information density when tiktok is fully optimize. Very interesting to explore, since the different mean of communication has different information scaling when limit to short format. I mean if you think about it, a manga is literally multiple time slices of an animation, but manga artist manage to cram more content by only showing starting and ending time slice of an event. And let user imagine the in between. I think tiktok might be able to function like that, you show start and end of a project. Huge amount of change happen in between, the audience is left wondering what happen in between ? then you show a link to the main video saying "find out what happen in between in this main content longer format video". Turn the disadvantage of a short format into an advantage is the better way to view the situation in my opinion. Another thing, the time commitment to consume short video is so small, it will actually capture a wider range of audience, which then can be funnel to your main content. Which normally some one might skip your content if it's too long. I guess in term of sale eco system, tiktok is acting more like an outbound sale, and youtube is acting more like inbound sale and sponsorship/ad/data is more like product fulfillment. So if you can measure your monetization KPI across the two platform combined, I think while tik tok by it self might not be profitable, the traffic it drive to the main channel might make the combined monetization much higher than the sum of two platform isolated content. I guess tiktok kind of acting like a loss leader, so to speak. Plus the fact you can't make higher quality content that require money, I think it even out the playing field between younger content creator and more season content creator. IE: you can't just throw money and experience at the problem and expect to dominate a new platform, every one is at an even playing field in term of learning curve. Pretty exciting in my opinion, when the rule for winning is not fully written out yet, you have to science it out of the system via trail and error and scientific method. A completely new world. I'll imagine a complete new way of monetization will come out of it. Just as youtube disrupt blog, tiktok is disrupt youtube. I guess it's more like co-existing, since they occupy different niche. But in term of ease of information consumption, each generation of innovation, the information is easier and less time commitment to consume. I imagine people who were adept at blogging were saying that you can't create interesting content with youtube video at the start. And I'm getting a feeling this is just an uncomfortable phase where no one has figure thing out completely yet. Which I think it's where the best opportunity lie. People who want steady monetization could always create content in a figured out system like youtube, but you'll be competing with legacy content creator who has both better resource and expertise, which it's almost impossible to compete unless you niche it down to very specific topic. Every pain point is an opportunity. Back to the manga analog a bit. There is also a difference between paper manga that have distinct page break and web comic where you have infinite scroll. In paper comic format, artist can purposely put cliff hangar on the end of page or end of a chapter to build anticipation for the next page or utilize a story arc to build hype for the next chapter. Where as in web comic, the pace of the story is increase and decrease via changing the vertical spacing between different panel. So I think short video format limited span is very great for building anticipation or a story arc. Or I guess content arc. And plus xkcd has been building a single page science comic for years, his stuff is literally even shorter than tiktok, but each of his comic is very information dense. He manage to monetize his product alright, I don't see why tiktok can't. I mean comparatively, tiktok has way content volume than xkcd comic. So I don't think 6 sec is much of a limited factor if you let your mind to experiment a bit.

[@ebonyblack4563]

As somebody who never used Vine, I always find it fascinating just how impactful it was on people.

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

That was very interesting to hear about, thanks for sharing!

[@SpeakShibboleth]

I was never interested in vine or tiktok. I'm pretty interested in your views on the rise and fall of them though. I can't explain it but I'll take it. I do think that a "hobbyist" platform can be just as interesting as one where the people are making their living. Your channel started when KZbin was a hobbyist platform. Many interesting things happened then. Most of my favorite KZbin channels don't get enough views to be paid.

[@Erfa]

I so agree with this. Hobbyist content can be just as enjoyable as professional content, if not more. There's a reason why people seem to change when they have to make a profit. I'd rather keep down the amount of ads and see hobbyist content rather than do what KZbin did and have an absurd amount of ads to get the professional content.

[@mani_mincraft]

I have a question for you and I would like you to respond (please[with cherries on top]). How, how have you been making videos consistently for over 12 years??? You’re like the god of constant uploads, the king of all video ideas. It’s amazing to look at your thumbnails and see how you’ve evolved from then to now.

[@QuietsPlace]

I don't know if this needs to be said but you mentioning that you just made this on your phone wasn't something I even realized or cared about until you mentioned at the end. I would watch videos on edited like this by you all the time. I really appreciate your mind, time, thoughts, and opinions. 🖤