Tiktok thinks we have to PAY tattoo apprentices ?!

[@artofstu42]

In a trade school you are paying to learn the trade, but you're not cleaning the school, running the school's instagram, taking out the trash, making sure all the supplies are stocked at the school, etc.

[@celle_tattoo]

That’s a great point I hadn’t considered !

[@Arania_3.14]

And the whole argument that "you also learn while sweeping the floor, cause that's sth you'd need to do as a tattoo artist" is bs as well. That's not really something you need to teach people, they know how to do it

[@t.t9199]

That’s at a trade SCHOOL not a trade APPRENTICESHIP, you get paid in any vocational apprenticeship when you’re performing actual labour

[@loremipsum685]

but part of the trade of running a shop is...actually running the shop, which includes cleaning it. A clean and stocked tattoo shop is part of the business. If you think you're too good to clean, you're probably not humble enough to learn. A better comparison is to monks or nuns. They run an entire facility (cooking, cleaning, etc) in order to pursue a higher goal. Tattooing is not a "normal" job and having "normal job" expectations sets you up to be disappointed. Also, guys, it's cleaning a shop, it's really not that hard. It's something hundreds of thousands of services workers are doing every single day and night in restaurants, bars, cafes, for far less in return.

[@t.t9199]

@@loremipsum685 why would tattooing not be a normal job? it's regular people tattooing other regular people, you are preforming labour in a country where you need to pay rent with money. Tattooing is not a sacred trade that you need to become a serf for. Also, you're acting like cleaning (and breaking down equipment and sanitising said equipment) isn't labour? Stop acting like a petty bourgeoisie small business owner tyrant under the guise that tattooing is not a 'normal job'.

[@Lucycraddock]

I was paid during my 4 year apprenticeship and had my degree paid for by my company. Unpaid internships and apprenticeships is 100% exploitative, let alone paying to be able to work! 😂😂😂

[@felix-ve8jk]

Your 4 year apprenticeship of what?

[@Lucycraddock]

@@felix-ve8jk data science

[@thefelicits]

For real, just because exploitation is normalised doesn't make it acceptable! Workers need compensation for their time and labour

[@kanerobertson7930]

@@thefelicitsyou’re being compensated with the ability to learn the trade. Why on earth would you specifically hire someone because they have no experience?

[@laurentcathery273]

​@@kanerobertson7930 because youre not "hiring" them per say. Theyre a student and in a traditional field, the school the apprentice goes to will financially compensate the workplace theyre training at. Thats just how it is literally everywhere else in the world. Youre teaching younger generations so that they know how to do the work and keeps the world running. With your mindset, the younger and younger generations will have less and less experiences and knowledge and will fuck over the world bruh

[@noirnicole4327]

My main confusion is figuring out how someone could balance an unpaid internship and a full time job. There's only so much time in a day

[@TheLlaura90]

exactly. If you go to cosmetology school, are you in class and doing homework for literally 40+ hrs a week?

[@StonedSammieSue]

@@TheLlaura90I mean 40 hours a week is going to school for about 5.5 hrs a day. Which sounds pretty easy.

[@nooneinparticular8996]

@@StonedSammieSue that’s assuming you work 7 days a week, which most jobs don’t. 8h is still normal for a full time job, but i think the point is still valid. If you have an unpaid apprenticeship and also need to support yourself you’d essentially have two full-time jobs. As a European it’s wild to me that someone would not get paid for their apprenticeship

[@kianna270]

@@StonedSammieSueI mean I don’t even go to class that many hours a day lol. Only two day of the week I’m at school for 7+ hours for labs. The other days two hours, and I work full time. But I’m not working for the university, or doing anything besides learning. If I was doing research for the uni, or tutoring, I’d be getting paid. I feel like that’s the difference. If you want an apprentice to pay, then don’t make them do work activities. Or split it up and pay them for running the desk and appointments, and unpaid for the learning. I think just bc that’s how the old way was, doesn’t mean it should remain that way. In this economy it’s tough to do an apprenticeship and work enough to support yourself. You’d need a support system of some kind or a lot of saved money.

[@fifaltra2370]

Fulltime jobber & apprentice here... the secret is: I don't. Working 6 days every week for 1.5 years now and I'm on the edge of giving up 'cause it's way too much work and really exhausting. I love my apprenticeship and hate my fulltime job but only one pays the bills.

[@itsruarc]

"Pay through opportunity" in that one dude's video makes my blood boil as someone with a formal art education. It's no different than asking a graphic designer to do your website for free for "exposure."

[@dragonsanddoubleknit]

Right? 😂 like imagine showing up to this guy’s shop and saying “I’d like a tattoo from you, I’ll pay you in opportunity” bet he’d require something real like MONEY lmao

[@LinnySays]

I thought the same thing.

[@jules8273]

i'm a graphic designer and people basically say this too lol 😂

[@hangilcp4600]

As a graphic designer with the degree paper, they still say this, and most of my colleges are exploited to gain experience ugh. Sadly the underpidment/free labor on art careers is so common.

[@knowartist3383]

which more people do than people who don't. then they end up ahead of the field, if even only for their "struggle(s)". so what's the debate, again?

[@HungerGamesFanatic11]

girl... let's not act like unpaid work should be normalised, this is such an American issue. Sounds crazy to me as someone from Australia

[@sixoclockhotdog5681]

for real! listening to these people complain about paying their workers is crazy

[@draanji]

Spanish here and I couldn't agree more with you, this is so wrong in the EU. Many are unpaid here but HAVING TO PAY TO WORK? This is a whole new level

[@zane-sharky]

Right! In the UK although you will be paid less as an apprentice, you still get paid. Being taught to tattoo is absolutely not the same as going to school.

[@draanji]

@@zane-sharky but that makes sense to be paid less as long as it's proportional to the hours your mentor dedicates to actually teach you! So instead of paying for classes, these are discounted from your salary (which, again, makes total sense!)

[@NukkuiskoHyvinVaiPois]

In Finland if you study an education through working, the government pays so it's free for the employer who's teaching you, while you get paid at minimum 85% of the wage of a regular employer. I mean tattooing is not an official education but the point is that you could have a system that benefits all

[@shaun3276]

When I learnt about unpaid tattoo apprenticeships I was like “damn, that’s like how trades were in the 1800s, I thought we progressed from that.” I also think the “well that’s how it was in my day” trope is not good enough, particularly in this economy.

[@Inkinhart]

And even then, apprentices were frequently paid in room and board, so they didn't have living expenses anyway

[@shaun3276]

@@Inkinhart true! Accommodation and meals were essential

[@glaedth]

I understand paying for education, but that education should be specifically designed to educate you. Paying to work somewhere sounds batshit insane to me as someone from EU.

[@oceladeb]

This is so weird to me and I even thought the video title was ironic. In my country (France) you actually are being paid for being an apprentice and the schools are usually free. Your wage is a bit lower than the average employee but you still receive your salary

[@iAmNothingness]

You’re paying to learn a job that you can work alone, as she said with all other things, cleaning a tattoo shop is also needed. Even the smallest things. You are not working as a tattoo artist from the get go.

[@Cheezus]

@@iAmNothingness you have to be shown how to sweep? pay thousands to learn how to sweep?

[@RonanLeBris]

Sure and that's why you are paid less (we're talking less than minimum wage here) than an actual employee. Cleaning, answering calls, managing the instagram account, sanitizing, open up time for the artists at the shop to be more productive.

[@cuszco]

@@iAmNothingness You don't need an apprenticeship to learn how to handle a broom or a toilet brush, though. So unless the studio is also teaching you how to actually run a successful business and effectively become a competitor, not just how to be cleaning staff, that argument isn't valid.

[@mateusquasetuga]

As a U.S. labor lawyer who specializes in minimum wage and overtime litigation, this sounds like an industry practice that is ripe for mass litigation. I can't wait to find some apprentices to put and end to this employee abuse.

[@SashaZemlyaX]

tattooers are not employees. We are self employed.

[@abigailmyers2587]

Interesting to hear a perspective from a labor lawyer!! What type of consequences could mentors be facing in these situations? Heavy fines, jail time? Are class action lawsuits an option for apprentices?

[@felix-ve8jk]

Please stay out of tattooing. We don't want or need you.

[@SashaZemlyaX]

@@abigailmyers2587 There are no consequences considering there are no W-9s, and no contracts. Every tattoo artist and apprentice is self employed.

[@felix-ve8jk]

@@abigailmyers2587 Lol just reread your post and think about how predatory this could be. Yes, we need more labor lawyers getting involved with legal suits against tattooers and shops. What a great idea! Nothing screams workers rights like getting a bunch of professional liars and thieves involved.

[@revienknight1164]

Learning is learning, but doing social media work, cleaning other artists' areas, etc, does not qualify as learning, and for me, personally, it does not fall under "apprenticeship" and that's the sort of work that should be paid for. No one needs to be taught to sweep a floor. That's a janitor.

[@xXNekou]

Some cleaning is also a part of this learning process, because tattoo environment and materials have to be cleaned/disinfected, and this has to be learnt and remembered. Every artist needs to know how to keep their stuff and area clean. :) As for sweeping the floor and cleaning toilets - yes, I think that's a bit too much.

[@kianatart]

Honestly! And the way that Matt talks about it is SO sketchy. Like, for me personally, I think that cleaning up the artists' stations falls under apprenticeship because they ARE learning the right cleaning process/standards. But the social media and everything else? Absolutely not. Matt says the apprentices 'aren't paying' so why should he 'baby' them but like... they are LITERALLY paying with LABOUR. Sounds like he's not holding up his end of the bargain to me!

[@RxxxQueen]

Yes, especially as social media manager is a whole other job that usually costs a lot to hire someone for. How convenient that these tattooists can get that work done for free...

[@jhjjhg1]

it was the fact that basically being their 'bitch' around the studio to do all the grunt work was the first priority and then comes actually LEARNING tattoo design techniques etc. Yes, learning how to keep a clean studio space, knowing how to handle clients and whatnot are things that need to be learned but the emphasis he put on just doing tasks for everyone else was a bit much. In the end, no matter how well you can sweep the floor - that doesn't make you a good tattoo artist it just makes you an unpaid maid. Plus, how can you really learn anything if your teacher is never really around, or provides very little guidance.

[@redbullets9758]

@@xXNekou but does it truly cost thousands to teach someone how to disinfect their tools? like be fr unless you're a total idiot it shouldn't take months of studying and thousands of dollars to remember how to clean and disinfect

[@bear_hardy2118]

Very American to not pay apprentices. In Australia every apprentice is paid. Sounds pretty simple to me, pay your staff, all of them.

[@felix-ve8jk]

Australian tattoo apprentices are not being paid by the tattoo shops. Maybe by the government, which is the same here in the US. It's called welfare.

[@anexus999]

I wasn't paid in my apprentice ship in Aus, worked multiple jobs, still wasn't enough to live and learn what I needed to know, had to tap out before I even got to tattoo after 2 years of free labor because it just wasn't right and I came to my senses that they were just using my time. Fucking sucked 😑

[@vocaleditz9483]

What are you being paid for exactly?

[@JulieCreatesArt]

@@anexus999sounds like you were scammed, I know someone who in Australia started tattooing like 6 months into their apprenticeship.

[@anexus999]

@@JulieCreatesArt pretty much, easy to scam people that are trying to chase their dream unfortunately.

[@romanglinnik8073]

I'm doing an internship and my personal take is that if you work under a contract, you are an employee and employees need to get paid. Being an apprentice is nothing else than being an employee.

[@thepriceisright048]

Yeah, I’ve only experienced corporate situations so this is basically an internship and if it’s a n unpaid internship they should just say that bc if you’re doing work around the shop, you should get paid for that

[@SashaZemlyaX]

Tattoo artists are not employees. We are self employed.

[@payu.j]

no, you're not@@SashaZemlyaX

[@SashaZemlyaX]

@@payu.j I literally pay self employment taxes in the United States. We don’t get W-9’s. We don’t sign contracts. In my 8 years of being in this industry, that’s how it has worked. Are YOU a tattoo artist?

[@payu.j]

@@SashaZemlyaX so, the truth is that europe is the one that is civilized, not usa literally everything is better in europe, including law of apprenticeship:)

[@REGINLEIIF]

An apprenticeship includes work, work has to be paid. It's that simple. If it would be JUST education you wouldn't clean the shop but just be shown how to clean and be hygienic. As soon as you clean the shop it's not just learning, it's work.

[@beanybabyrabie]

LMAAAAOOOOO

[@YellaBellaReno]

Agreed. If you’re working at the shop you should be paid. Not a lot, but enough. All good shops could use the help anyway, and they would have to pay for it. If you’re NOT working at the shop, you should pay. However, if you pay, your education should be expedited. There’s more to gain than just money. Some things don’t have a price. Ya dig?

[@Sirlordnoob]

Working is part of the education. That's like saying people should get paid for writing an essay.

[@markafacreativesolutions9590]

@@Sirlordnoob If the essay you wrote generate surplus value for the institution asked you to write it, you definitely should get paid. I hope you are able to grasp the distinction here, and how your example isn't a valid one to argue the point you're trying to make as "apples aren't oranges" per se... =)

[@Sirlordnoob]

@@markafacreativesolutions9590 it's the same shit. You don't get paid to go to school. You'll get paid when you've gotten good enough to do tattoos that deserve to be paid for. None of my mentors were paid until their clients were paying them. I wasn't paid to scrub the toilet. Too much entitlement going around in this industry nowadays. Come back and talk when you're a tattooer

[@father6371]

I work in the construction industry. It blows my mind that apprentices don't get paid in the tattoo world. I can't imagine apprenticing in a trade for 3 months to 5 years with no pay. Then expected to clean the shop, and work, etc. I pay my apprentices a guaranteed minimum per week.

[@sunshinegirl2015]

yes! I interviewed for a brick laying apprenticeship, if I had accepted it I would have been paid for every hour I learned and worked.

[@felix-ve8jk]

@@sunshinegirl2015 construction industry doesn't employ freelancers or independent contractors the same way tattooing does. Don't be fooled - construction and tattooing are nowhere near the same.

[@sunshinegirl2015]

My family has worked in construction for generations, both as underpaid/overworked employees and as business owners. - I also have friends in the tattoo industry and have researched extensively myself. Higher standards in any job or industry will never happen if you don't demand it. The tattoo industry is extremely unregulated. So it's pretty bogus to say "this is how the tattoo industry operates" - it doesn't have any hard fast rules. There isn't even regulation on what ingredients in the ink is safe to use. (in the usa) Every state in the usa has a different rule for becoming a tattooer. Things can and will change. They always do in every industry. New things don't happen if people aren't willing to go against what the current trend or belief is.

[@felix-ve8jk]

The first thing that needs to change about tattooing is keeping more people out. It's flooded with scratchers, scam artists, manipulators and content baiters at the moment. I've worked in construction too. There's an absurd amount of money in construction, and many of the businesses are run by wealthy families who have had deep connections to local and state politicians for generations. Not really fair to compare that to tattooing, which was underground and illegal not very long ago.

[@sunshinegirl2015]

don't know why you think you're going to change my mind as apposed to the original person who commented the exact same thing I did. You're wasting your time. I'm not interested.

[@Marc-rk9yf]

How are more financially vulnerable people (especially disadvantaged minority groups, etc.) expected to cover their living costs while simultaneously PAYING somebody to be their mentor (& performing unpaid labor). It seems this system almost gatekeeps tattoo apprenticeships to people with more privilege and money.

[@chizdoesthings]

exactly this !!!

[@kianna270]

Honestly!! It’s just another industry with the whole “work hard to move up” mentality, almost like medicine. They work long hours in medical residency, and it’s seen as a “rite of passage” to becoming a doctor, but is it really healthy to work people 24 hours straight? No!!! And it’s exploitive! At least medical residents get paid.

[@punkierockerbruster]

This is such a fantastic point!!!

[@CrustyUgg]

Omg... you act like where people magically can pay their bills ... people of all races get up and go to work.. or don't.

[@beanybabyrabie]

😂

[@failuretolaunchdrums]

Not in the industry, but really strange that tattoo apprentices aren’t paid at least a reduced salary or wage until they officially become an artist. Working for free is preposterous.

[@zanzaboonda]

That's exactly what the law says. Why you do think he deleted his TikTok? Lol

[@thefelicits]

I always assumed they were paid at least a small wage and didn't do full-time hours...this video is quite enlightening about the state of the industry in the US

[@beanybabyrabie]

Nah. You take the opportunity or you don’t. Keep it pushing if not, a thousand others will happily take your place and pay for the opportunity

[@thefelicits]

@@beanybabyrabie just be rich enough not to be paid for time and labour 😂 anyone can do that right?

[@failuretolaunchdrums]

@@beanybabyrabie it’s not like a community college woodshop class where everyone learns so they can go home and make their own bookshelf or desk - they’re working to make the shop owner money and run their stores and marketing for free labor. To me, the paying customer, I’m disgusted with the notion of this practice and would rather give my hard-earned money to a shop that pays their apprentices for their time and energy. If they’re newbies, pay them minimum wage and charge the customer a reduced price, and if they really suck at the job after extensive and thorough training, *fire* them. Construction and other trades apprentices can make a good wage even while they’re honing their skills. With all due respect, gatekeeping disadvantaged aspiring tattooists from pursuing their dream career is asinine and barbaric and nothing will change my mind. Have a good day.

[@ThrivingNotDying]

I think unpaid apprenticeships are exclusionary to people who can't afford to do that but still need to be given the chance to pursue their professional dreams. I did take unpaid internships over a decade ago in college and I wouldn't do it again nor recommend others to take unpaid positions of any kind.

[@GhoulSoulToll]

Like Matt said there’s a difference between paying for education vs getting payed for work. If you’re paying just for the education doesn’t mean you have to work as well! It’s like going to college and then the college saying you don’t just have to pay us but also work for us too. Legally if you’re making your apprentice work productive labor on top of making them pay for an education in that field, you’re at that point exploiting them. 💵

[@kianna270]

Agreed. I pay to go to school but if I was doing anything for the school like research or tutoring, I’d be paid. I think a healthy balance would be paying them to run the desk and do appointments, but then maybe unpaid during the learning moments. They have to remember a good apprentice is an assets. My friend just finished her apprenticeship and she was paid but she signed saying she would work for the shop for a certain number of years. A lot of places do stuff like that. Like public loan forgiveness if you work in the public sector. A lot of hospitals pay people to further their education if they agree to work there for X years.

[@TamagoSenshi]

Yea, they're doing work, not sitting around

[@CroatiaSurvival]

This is like saying doctors in residency shouldn’t be paid because they’re learning…

[@SimmSumm]

I didn’t pay to become a cosmetologist. The school also paid for our whole kit, a kit I still get use of today almost 10 years later. Most schools are federally funded, if you go to a reputable one 👀👀 I think it’s disgusting to pay for not only something that has no end point and can be taken away whenever the mentor wants, but also having to pay thousands in supplies!! Working well over full time hours for no pay. How do they make money?

[@anasemelianova5759]

And we never had to run their damn instagram 😂

[@ladydixon9651]

When going to school or doing any sort of uni course, the student is only there to learn set materials and turn in specific work. They don't clean, deal with stock, handle customers, or generally juggle this whole scope of responsibilities. If an apprentice is expected to do more things than just learn they should be paid like every other employee.

[@fuzzy5987]

The world's richest country can't afford to pay apprentices....how shameful and embarrassing

[@felix-ve8jk]

People in your country aren't being paid by tattoo shops to be apprentices either. You can take out an education loan, apply for assistance and get housing here just like anywhere else. World's richest country is a funny comment considering the US was initially one more colony of the British Empire.

[@starrynyte158]

Oh we can afford it. There's a reason someone is rich, it's because they don't pay anyone properly. It's an epidemic here. That's the disgusting part.

[@beanybabyrabie]

@@starrynyte158that’s so dumb HAHAHAHAH

[@littleloner1159]

​@@beanybabyrabiedid you just walk past a mirror HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@sackofpeas2470]

While I agree that having unpaid apprenticeships is dumb, this has nothing at all to do with the US government. Tattoo shops aren't paid for by taxes. Your comment has the same energy as people who say "why do NBA/NFL/MLB players make millions, while teachers make practically nothing?"

[@EudaemonicGirl]

Celle, I think you're experiencing some sunk cost fallacy here. Instead of acknowledging the law that was put in place to protect employees from being exploited by their employers, you're defending the decision you made to pay for your apprenticeship because you've already invested so much time and money into it. The fact that cosmetology schools are badly run in your country and should perhaps be liable under similar laws doesn't make it alright to compare you cleaning toilets (instead of a hiring a cleaner to do so) to being taught in a school setting. I also think your industry might suffer from the "fuck you, I got mine" mindset that I see sometimes. If your mentors suffered under bad labour conditions, it doesn't mean that you need to do that too. Imagine if mine workers still had that notion. I'd hope people would be decent enough to want to give others good working conditions and not squeeze them out of free labour just because they're in a position of power to do so. It frankly leaves a bad taste in my mouth that people are this inconsiderate towards often younger and naive people in the pursuit of money.

[@kianna270]

1000% agreed. They could at least pay them when they run the desk and do shop activities, and maybe do unpaid for learning times. It’s just exploitation to make them do dirty work just bc they’re learning.

[@mandyoquendo1875]

Yeah, it’s wild to hear “Not sure where I stand on this” in regards to something that has settled law about it.

[@starrynyte158]

Also our cosmetology schools are nothing like what she described. Yes you pay to learn, but you are not made to work for free. Most of us go part time while we work. I believe she was fed misinformation to make her feel like her situation is acceptable. And when you don't go the school route in cosmetology and learn on the job, through state approved programs, you are paid for being an employee while you are trained.

[@SpookyCharms]

​@@starrynyte158you can also get your cosmetology license in two ways (at least in America, I'm not sure about anywhere else). You can go to school where you just learn in a traditional school setting and takes about 10 months, or you can do a PAID apprenticeship for about 2 years. Both lead to state boards and licensing.

[@starrynyte158]

@@SpookyCharms lol I replied this to someone else as well! Thank you for elaborating the process here!!

[@hanspeter1886]

I live in a country with a very formalized apprenticeship system that exists in a bunch of different professions and not being paid at all seems wild to me. A bunch of the tattoo artists whose tiktoks were shown seemed kind of arrogant tbh. Yes, they're teaching their apprentices but their apprentices are also performing tons of work. It's not like a schooling situation where they're fully focussed on teaching the apprentice all the time. That's why paying less than minimum wage might be a fair compromise. In the end, if not getting paid for an apprenticeship seems like a fair deal to you that's great but it seems very exploitative to me performing that much unpaid labour.

[@TheLlaura90]

exactly! This is crazy to me! I know some tattoo artists who had awful experiences and they had no where to turn to. So unregulated = lots of bad stuff happens.

[@felix-ve8jk]

What country do you live in where "formalized apprenticeships" includes tattoo shops?

[@yawa3233]

@@felix-ve8jkwhy wouldn’t tattoo shops be included

[@felix-ve8jk]

@@yawa3233 didn't ask you did I? None of these Western countries with socialized programs for education and apprenticeships include tattoo shops lol.

[@hanspeter1886]

@@felix-ve8jk how is that relevant to my statement? I'd be similarly concerned about exploitation if tattoo apprentices were doing tons of free labour in the country where I live. I know how beneficial for both parties apprenticeships can be with proper regulation and that's not what I'm seeing in the video.

[@thepriceisright048]

I don’t really get if you have somebody doing work like cleaning the shop and managing the social media then they need to be paid for it

[@conor9966]

What's not to understand? It is work that still needs done even if no apprentices and would be done by an employee. If you have someone doing this you have them in the role of an employee and need to pay them

[@lilyvonlicht1517]

@@conor9966i think you misunderstood, op was saying they think apprenticeship should be paid

[@PercyBoom69]

If you haven't heard of apprentices getting paid, then you haven't really talked to any tattoo shops in other countries. Most tattoo shops I've been to, my friends have been to and the ones I know about, all of them pay their apprentices because you're an employee. I'm also pretty sure that you're biased because you're already in this environment.

[@SheMumbles]

Yeaa I kinda feel that bias too? Like there's a little rationalizing going on to self soothe the thought that maybe she really should've been paid for all the extra work she did. Which she should have. Cuz all apprentices should be paid especially if they're literally doing work duties. From my experience tattoo culture is super guilty of the whole "well I had to do it so you do too" mentality and that seems to be going strong

[@creepydorkk]

This seems definitely like a states mentality thing. Since in many other countries education is free. And ofc you should get paid if you’re an intern or have an apprenticeship.

[@Anni-Ka93]

definitly....doing free labour is crazy talk in the rest of the western world..... in germany every apprenticeship is paid....be it in beeing a hair stylist, a woodworker, painter or any other profession. how the hell else are you supposed to survive? also education is free here. no paing for gping to school or university.

[@iAmNothingness]

The problem is that you can’t work a job like tattooing like from the get go. If you learn to sell things in a shop and sell things for to people you learn it pretty quickly and you are able to work. You can not work like that in tattooing. Idk how long it takes until you can work as a tattoo artist. But paying you to not be able to work the job you wanna do? Depends on what you do. If you clean etc sure get paid for that but not for a JOB YOU DO NOT EARN MONEY FOR THE BUSINESS.

[@payu.j]

wtf are you even talking about XDDD americans are just dumb or what? job is a job, europe SOMEHOW understands this and PAYS for doing the job AND apprenticeships@@iAmNothingness

[@Lesyaaaaaaa]

Yeah this is bonkers from a Canadian perspective. You can pay for trades SCHOOL but you can also be paid like 20 an hour as an aprpentice. Crazy.

[@felix-ve8jk]

Name one country where tattoo apprentice or tattoo "education" is free? Just because you have socialized your universities and secondary schooling doesn't mean tattooing is part of that in any way.

[@scarletwinter9311]

It’s crazy because this is absolutely NOT the only field with apprentices being used for unpaid labor. A lot of science fields do this as well. Entry level jobs require years of experience and the only way to get them is through apprenticeships and internships. It traps the new people in the workforce and makes them have to work for free before they can apply to get paid for a job they are already doing.

[@biodorkus]

I was originally pretty firmly on the side of "why would you get paid for someone teaching you?", but Lynn's second video made some excellent points, and it reminded me of another example of getting paid to learn: grad school (at least for the biological sciences)! You're not paid well, but you do receive a stipend because you are working throughout your training. 💸

[@braulioarmenta6111]

Studying was for free? You got paid from day 1?

[@biodorkus]

@@braulioarmenta6111 Well I didn't because I did things the hard way and worked towards a master's part time while I worked full time. But full time PhD students are paid throughout their studies; the first 1-2 years by the school, and remaining years by whichever lab they join for their research training. Again, not paid well, but they had a stipend and health insurance.

[@hibak_]

Look my knowledge on tattoos and the industry is limited so I can absolutely be wrong. But apprentenships are not just people coming into learn, they are working and directly helping the shop earn a profit. Expected to work 5 days a week and if we go by what Matt said, manage social media, stock supplies actually tattoos people. Like I’m in university, I’m not expecting to be paid for it, but I’m also not literally working as I learn. I don’t know what the answer is but I also don’t feel just completely not paying these guys for the work they do is right

[@BreakofDawn]

And even if you do work for the university, they actually PAY you for it

[@hibak_]

@@BreakofDawn exactly! There is a clear distinction from learning and working which I just don’t feel like is here

[@kianna270]

@@BreakofDawnexactly, I’d I did research for the uni, if be getting paid. But I pay for my labs, bc I’m learning.

[@knowartist3383]

absolutely wrong. rarely does an apprentice make a shop money they couldn't have made by themselves. even if the shop was half-assing things. they literally don't need an apprentice in most cases. you came begging to them, not vice-versa. and I don't mean "you", literally. in general though. survival of the fit. if they don't want to learn for the easiest forms of labor, gtfo...

[@riversullivan2160]

I do understand the arguments from artists about why they don't think they should pay apprentices, but I'm one of the underprivileged disabled people who has wanted to be a tattoo artist for years and years but I can't afford to not be paid. Especially since you can't get financial assistance for tattoo school or training. I've been trying to figure out how to get into the industry and always hit the wall of it's going to cost thousands and I wont have time to have a real job so that I can afford those expenses and my bills.

[@SheMumbles]

Thisss. Being a tattoo artist should only depend on how much work & effort the individual puts in, not how rich they already are before they decide to start learning

[@felix-ve8jk]

Stoney learned to tattoo in the circus.

[@LittlePotatoRoll]

Saying "you are paid with opportunity" is like the equivalent to a music venue booking a band or musician & telling them they are being paid with "exposure" then making the artist set up the stage, shoot content of the show for the venues social media platforms, then tear down the stage & clean up the entire venue once the show is over...

[@knowartist3383]

not even a close comparison, but I had fun reading your opinion. you know the saying, right? "opinions are like assholes..."

[@LittlePotatoRoll]

@@knowartist3383 🥱

[@cheyannemathis5706]

If the apprentice is only learning to tattoo and using the materials from their mentor, it makes sense for an apprentice to pay for that education or to not be paid a wage since they are not providing any services. But if an apprentice is providing labor/services for a shop like cleaning, running the desk, handling inventory, and running social media, then they should be paid a fair wage for the hours of labor they put in.

[@andromeda1515]

I understand paying for the education of the actual skill of tattooing and for the health and safety information and all of that. Its a trade essentially. However being an unpaid receptionist and social media manager for a tattoo shop is absolutely ridiculous. Teaching yourself to tattoo is looked down upon but they also make it extremely inaccessible to go through a legit apprenticeship. Thats gatekeeping at its core and its not okay. I dream of the day the tattoo industry is inclusive.

[@dustin860]

I've been close to quite a few tattoo artists and shop owners. In my area, free or paid apprenticeships are usually only found in shitty or old school shops. A lot of places require a minimum of a year at the front desk (paid work), then they're paid minumum wage +tips through their apprenticeship. Good artists and shop owners have priced things in a way that they don't need some poor apprentice to pay them to watch or be their shop bitch. Sure, the apprentice will need to cover their costs for materials and such, but they're at least making a few bucks to survive on. This paid apprenticeship is bullshit and just prices poor artists out of an opportunity.

[@kianna270]

Yes this is what my friend did. She worked the desk for a year, and was paid for her apprenticeship and got to keep tips. Once she finished, she had to work at the shop for X amount of years, but she stayed bc she loves it there.

[@felix-ve8jk]

>"only found in shitty or old school shops" >"Good artists and shop owners have priced things in a way that they don't need..." Lol it's so funny how the new generation views tattooing. Most of you are so clueless and wrong about the businesses and what actually makes "good artists and shops" just that.

[@dustin860]

@@felix-ve8jk What an ignorant thing to say. Do you not try to better yourself and progress over time? As that's what the industry has done to adapt to the volatile economy and rising cost of housing. A free apprenticeship 25-30 years ago was much more approachable than today. By making people pay for it or making them essentially work a full time job for free, you're pricing out a huge chunk of the population. And typically those who have suffered are the best artists.

[@kianna270]

@@felix-ve8jk don’t be afraid of change my friend. A lot of shops are starting to pay their apprentices now. It’s not for discussion, it’s literally the LAW lmao. Imagine being ok with people working full time hours for free. These artists are acting like they’re god sent, when there’s tons of other resources these days people could use besides a traditional appenticeship. They should be lucky to have people who want to work at their shops, but don’t act like tattooing is this god sent job that’s just so perfect. They act like once you’re down with apprenticeship, you’re just set for life. Just not true. You still have to build a customer base more and a lot of your money is going to booth fees and taxes, plus you’re usually on your own for healthcare + 401k. They’re acting like working for free for few years will just set you for life. That’s just not true. Esp with how many people I see get dropped for no reason, most likely bc the shops wanted free labor. Literally every other job in the world pays you for on the jobtraining, which is basically what an apprenticeship is . … I think more people would be inclined to take the no pay side of these people weren’t performing job duties. They act like scheduling an appointment and cleaning is such a big learning experience, please! Anyone can learn how to schedule appts in a day of training, not an excuse to use them for free labor for a full work week. And you should have learnt sterile cleaning before you even start to apprenticeship bc you usually need your blood born pathogens certification.

[@futuristic.handgun]

​@@felix-ve8jkClearly you have zero clue about it. I'm glad to hear that a new generation of tattooers that have sense and common decency and compassion is coming up and hopefully will be the absolute norm while this bullshit attitude in old school shops dies out.

[@jorijoestar4998]

Paying to do free labor for 1/2 years sounds heinous. If someone is going to school, they can get a job. If you're a tattoo apprentice, it sounds like it's school/work

[@fionamartin2773]

Wooof, this feels like a very USA focused idea. Not paying your apprentices? That's bonkers to think about if you're from the UK or Canada. Yeah, you might pay to go to school but you're not giving your school free labour. A lot of these tattoo apprentiships sure sound like they're getting unpaid labor to clean the shop, manage convention booths and run their social media accounts. US Tattoo industry feels like it's smelling its own farts sometimes. 🙃💵 (I'm not trying to be negative here in the comments, just this sort of topic I think riles up us non US folks especially, haha)

[@Inkinhart]

Yeah, this is ... bizarre. Even in pre-industrial England masters were expected to pay their apprentices in room and board, if not in actual money, because that's their responsibility. They'd frequently put their apprentices up in their own houses, where they'd eat meals with the family. Apprenticeships are *paid*, that's the point of taking an apprenticeship over going to the equivalent schooling

[@felix-ve8jk]

Canadian and English tattooers all learned what they do from American shops in the early 20th century who did it first. Sorry, but all the best artists in your countries did free apprenticeships too. Good luck finding a great apprenticeship at a shop that is actually going to pay you a livable wage. Now, applying for government benefits and receiving some sort of welfare is great if you can get it. Sorry to single you out here but it's obvious most people in the comments don't know anything about the tattoo industry in their own countries. This isn't an American thing.

[@fionamartin2773]

​@@felix-ve8jk I hear ya and don't worry, I don't mind being singled out, haha. You're right, it's not entirely an American thing but it really does feel like the USA gets away with it more so. I don't know if it's just 'hey, it's just like this so we all have to do it' mentality or what. I see more pushback in the UK and Canada (for the record, I am from the UK and live in Canada. I have been tattooed and talked to tattoo artists in both countries, yes it's not extensive experience but it's what I was basing my thoughts on) Like we just saw Matt's apprentices talk about how much work they did in shop and on social media but they were never paid. All because it fell under their 'apprenticeship'. It didn't look like they were getting any tattoo training at all. That's the shit that really grinds my gears, just taking advantage of folks. I will take on board from your experience that it's happening elsewhere but there's something uniquely American about the folks in these videos defending it. I can't put my finger on what it is but it's there.

[@felix-ve8jk]

@@fionamartin2773 most tattoo apprentices should not be doing the crazy level of TikTok videos and social media management that Matt was requiring. I live in LA and have been in the tattoo industry for more than a decade (not a tattooer). I didnt know who he was until recently and his shop is not far from me. From my experience with shops and apprentices, a lot of apprentices will get some of the tip money all the shop artists made throughout the day. It is more of a family than an employer. Apprentices will live with shop artists. Tattooing has blown up so considerably in the last 10 years it's hard to regulate how the information is passed and who is working. So you get situations like Matt and the TikTok apprentice.

[@bobanoda]

Dude it’s so frustrating in the US when it comes to labor. Everyone should be advocating for all of us to be paid for our labor bc we’re all working class to the 1% elites. But instead it’s so “me” focused that people think others don’t deserve to earn a livable wage bc they themselves work harder or something. So then in the end no one gets paid enough bc we’re tearing each other down instead of fighting for our labor rights

[@IxiaRayne]

At a trade school you get some sort of qualification. A degree or a certificate or something similar. At a tattoo shop you get nothing. Yeah you can tell ppl you went there but having something tangible is incredibly valuable. At least for me. I’m my humble opinion tattooing should be a proper official path of education. Cus as it is it’s the wild Wild West and everybody makes their own rules.

[@koryn_tattoo2514]

Everywhere is different and even every state in the US is different. Some places do get actual licenses. Here in NJ everything is logged and filed trough the health department so you are licensed trough the county you work in

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

That Matt guy is so frigging media hungry. Having constant drama like he does is never a good sign.

[@kianna270]

Yeah I figured this, that video also confirms my suspicions that he wanted an apprentice to be social media savvy to use them as basically un paid social media work. Literally majority of the time those are paid gigs and tons of people have gotten cancelled for letting fans do unpaid social media work, but it’s somehow okay in tattooing. The inconsistency is just odd lol.

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

@@kianna270 yeah it confirmed it for me as well, he basically got some poor young girl to come in thinking she was going to actually learn the business but he had her messing around doing tiktoks all day and got weirdly aggressive when asked about it like in this video. Grown men and tiktok is another warning sign

[@kianna270]

@@Ukraineaissance2014 yess!!! Thank you, people were disagreeing with me last time when I said this, and blaming the apprentice for being too busy with Tt. Like hello? He literally asked for a “social media savvy” person. I knew what he was doing 😬 he gives me bad vibes for sure. And the fact that the other apprentice basically confirmed this story, that he was never there and only obsessed with TT when he was there, just proves the point.

[@bobanoda]

@@kianna270it’s crazy to think people go to school for social media work and he expects FREE labor out of that??

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

@@kianna270 yep it cant be a good environment to work in with his endless dramas, wittering on about his recovery and messing around doing tiktoks all day. Imagine just having a bit of an off day and hes in your face with all that stuff. He should also have made absolutely no comment about that apprentice leaving rather than hinting at 'dirty laundry'

[@milkteamachine]

This is an old form of apprenticeship, except 200 years ago you’d get room and board and didn’t have to worry about surviving. People rightfully frown at those who just start tattooing without proper training but making apprenticeships hard to access just encourages this.

[@slothdance2020]

As an outsider I thought an apprenticeship was more like trade school. I totally understand either paying money or paying in labor, but it does seem odd to pay and also have to do tons of unpaid labor. At trade school you learn and study and don't have to do a bunch of unpaid labor. I do think this is an important topic to discuss and I feel like there is a middle ground for getting your moneys worth. You are training to be a tattoo artist and run a business, not a maid, not a gofer to fetch coffee. I think keep the labor expected to reasonable.

[@felix-ve8jk]

Do you think you just do workbook exercises and tests in trade school?

[@slothdance2020]

@@felix-ve8jk no of course not, but you are also not a maid when you are doing trade school to be an coder. I am saying it is ok to pay for an apprenticeship and do the work actually involved in learning. If they want you to do work outside of that, you should get paid for it. when I did my trade school training it was really hard work, but we did not clean the classroom/bus after wards. We never had to unpaid labor outside of what we were training to do. A tattoo apprentice is not a janitor or a store clerk or should they be fetching coffee. The more I read about how some of these appreciates are used, the more I think there needs to be stronger boundaries between and apprentice and unpaid labor. the AC repair person is not required to go fetch his clients coffee or clean up after other workers. I paid for my trade school/licensing program and I have no issues at all with that, I am just saying there should be more boundaries to protect the apprentices.

[@felix-ve8jk]

@@slothdance2020 not all trade school courses are like coding. I went to machining school and spent plenty of time cleaning and disinfecting work areas. The same happens in welding, carpentry and any course that involves labor. You're going to make a mess cutting and shaping materials. I'd suspect the same happens in cosmetology school. You don't have school employees clean up after you. A tattoo apprenticeship isn't any of those other things you listed either. A tattooer will make more money and generally live a better work life than any of those other trades you mentioned. Trades are not an easy fix for life's problems. You take some coding classes and then fight for the bottom tier junior programming jobs that are all disappearing fast. You become a machinist and work 70 hours a week for a government contractor. You become a dental hygienist and do the same teeth cleans 10 times a day for the next 40 years and never become a dentist. Tattooing is freedom for a lot of people. It's one of the last folk art trades left and this whole comment section thinks its low paid, low skilled work akin to being a janitor. Lol.

[@slothdance2020]

@@felix-ve8jk No, my point is exactly the opposite, a tattoo artists is not a janitor and should not be treating like one even during an apprenticeship. I did trade school to get my tour guiding certificate (I know it sounds easy but it is a 2 years course there are 16 hour lectures in the field and classroom days). It was very hard work, often physically and emotionally demanding. The amount of information and subjects we needed to cover all while hiking, taking notes and preparing our own guiding points. It was very hard work. If we were then asked to clean the bus after, or wash down our desks on lecture days, I would be offended. I paid a good amount of money for the course, I have to take multiple exams at the end to get my license and I get a great job after. I 100% think the issue is that Apprentices are undervalued in their roles. They are there to learn a valuable skill, they are not just unpaid labor. I think there need to be boundaries of what is actually educating them and what is mentors just using them for free labor. Hire a cleaner, hire a gofer for coffee and let your apprentice focus on the skills they needs for their future career.

[@grimvii2917]

In germany appreticeships are pretty popular for a lot of fields, I am for example doing IT apprenticeship (it lasts for 3 years). Apprentices are getting paid! maybe not as much as normal workers, but we still get enough money to rent a room or small apartment and also buy food. We might be learning and not working as much as normal workers, but we are still working and our time is taken, so it is only fair that we get paid

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

Yes we have lota of apprenticeships in the UK as well, which originally was a good system, but now we are seeing ridiculous things like warehouse operatives being listed as apprenticeship roles because they can pay less for them.

[@felix-ve8jk]

Wow that's great your IT apprenticeship is just like a tattoo apprenticeship!

[@houijda]

It’s like unpaid internships. I don’t think that’s cool. Either pay to learn like you’re in school and JUST learn to tattoo or get paid for the shop labor u do. And always read ur contract

[@louiselikesmuseic]

I couldn't imagine not getting paid for working. Idk about tattooing but apprentices in other trades in my country absolutely get paid eg if the minimum wage is $23 they might be paid $15 but at least they don't have to work other jobs at the same time.

[@GreyishBobbi]

I think I end up on a more legal mind on this. Employment contracts and wages help protect both the apprentices and shops. 💸

[@shaestewart5261]

Like Lynn, the first thing that came to mind is how privileged one must be to have an unpaid apprenticeship. My other thought is that paying the apprentice holds the mentor more accountable. If they have to pay you, they will undoubtedly take more time with you to get their money’s worth; however, it also gives the apprentice a sense of accountability as well…because they are being paid like an employee. Unlike colleges and trade schools, with tattoo apprenticeships the apprentice has no recourse if they feel they are being taken advantage of or abused in any way. There is no board or no administration to assist an apprentice if something sketchy is going on. When one pays tuition, this kind of protection and recourse is included. Essentially, as an unpaid tattoo apprentice who is also paying for their education, one could be paying a mentor fo be overworked, abused, etc.

[@annaconigliaro2907]

I think that the artist pool from paid apprenticeships would be better because you would get more talented individuals in the door. There's some insanely talented artists that don't have the money to do an internship

[@waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa9739]

I had to pay my mentor everyday for my apprenticeship, but I still got to keep everything I made from the clients coming in to get tattooed by me. I also didn't have to buy stuff like armrests, the shop provided all that and even though I had to buy all the disposable things myself, most of the time they'd still let me just take theirs free of charge. I didn't make a lot, still don't but I still was in surplus most of the time. Not getting paid anything at all is crazy to me. But then again I'm not from the US

[@knowartist3383]

this sounds fair. similar experiences. I could use whatever I wanted once I started tattooing at any shop. never paid money to learn. just hung out, made art, learned how to get better at making art, took out trash and swept and/or mopped a few times a week. sheesh, the brutality of it all, lmao.

[@ticcingqueer6140]

So coming from Germany, and having wanted to become a Tattoo artist, things are somewhat similar. Usually, unless a studio themselves decides otherwise, you got to pay out of your own pocket for the apprenticeship. This is fairly unusual in Germany, since "Ausbildungen" (Vocational training/apprenticeship) is normally paid, if not much and almost always under minimum wage. However, in Germany there is no by law regulated vocational training to become a tattoo artist. It sounds like it's pretty similar to how it's done in the US. I do think that, ideally, tattoo apprenticeships should be payed, and (at least in Germany) should become a by law regulated vocational training/apprenticeship. Especially because of how important hygiene is. I also just don't think its beneficial to the apprentice in terms of learning when they have to work a full other job to keep themselves afloat. (Which you often have to do even in a by law regulated vocational training. The pay is absolute shit even though you work full-time.) To add: the government in Germany does compensate businesses that take apprentices.

[@einfach.nur.rebecca]

The big problem in germany is that beeing a tattoo artist isn‘t seen as a job i guess like influencers etc. I guess if you ask the 40+ age people thats the opinion and you should learn something useful ;)

[@knowartist3383]

do you realize how long the line of applicants would be if TATTOO apprenticeships were free??? the industry has already become a joke. also, if that's your stance on the issue, then who decides who gets to become an apprentice in the tattoo arena? what are the qualifications? how soon will it be decided that shops/the industry are discriminating against certain individuals? what are the standards? we don't need hundreds of thousands of ppl all of a sudden thinking they are cut from the same cloth. the industry needs reliable, quality, high-valued thread to keep producing great material. otherwise it's low thread-counts at Walmart. not hard to understand.

[@heart.9889]

​@@knowartist3383 the shops decide individually. This is the way it works with all normal apprenticeships in Germany and it works very well.

[@starrynyte158]

Both lol! You can get paid for work you do and pay for the educational portion of your apprenticeship. Im a nail tech and in my state there are 2 ways to get your license: you go to school or you apprentice. If you go to school part time so you can still work, its 400 hours over 4 months or so, not a burden on your life. If you apprentice, you work full or part time at the shop, you are slowly trained on different services and business activities, but you are 100% an employee who is paid lol! It would be insanity not to pay your employee during their training period, no one does that in any other industry! Consider this: if this wasnt about free labor, then why do you need to be there 5 days a week? Why aren't you there for designated learning periods only? Thats a way to make tattooing more accessible! Charge for teaching if that is what you are doing, but once ita beyond teaching you are hazing at best and taking advantage of people at worst when you dont pay them for their labor. Period.

[@sarahsnow9088]

💵💸 I have a question for whomever wants to answer. Why do we, in the USA, not have a tattoo and body modification school that is set up like cosmetology school or trade school or college? It would be a school just like hair school, nail tech school and the likes of other schools set up the same way? There would be official books written and videos shown for the education and teachers in the classroom with a planned out curriculum that dictates what you need to pass before you touch a client. The people who come in for a tattoo by the students sign a waiver that says that they understand the students are learning but obviously the clients will have a clean experience instead of risking going to someone who will give them an infection. If someone can be in school to learn hair or be in school to be a traditional painter or even be educated to operate on human brains as doctors then why can't we have tattoo schools?

[@legok6037]

I personally would agree with the take that if there's labor required of the apprentice that is providing value to the business, such as cleaning etc. (other than the apprentice's own mess), apprentice should be fairly compensated. But I think it is reasonable to not pay the apprentice for hours they are being trained. As an example, in colleges there are work-study programs where students are compensated when working, but not for their general studying etc. hours, only when they are on the clock at the printing shop / workshop / computer lab etc.

[@kawaiifangzz]

Here in South Africa any registered business looking to host a student under an apprenticeship or internship (this includes tattoo parlors) are, by law, required to pay their apprentice/intern a monthly stipend. This stipend is a small amount of money, subsidized to the company by the government, to pay to their apprentice/intern. Though they are considered a student, they must be registered as a learning employee. All companies apply for stipends to make sure their apprentices/interns have a little something to carry them over as working without pay could be nearly impossible for most South Africans. I think it is pretty cool that these stipends exist as it helps both the business owner and their apprentice

[@chiatortilla]

Obviously the different industries in art have different practices, but from what I've researched in ceramics apprenticeship (when I was seriously considering transitioning from ceramics hobbyist to actually doing it professionally), the arrangements where you end up paying without being paid are most likely short-term apprenticeships, since you're probably not adding to a lot of the productivity of the studio as you're still going through the learning curve. However, for long-term arrangements, you get paid for the work you do to maintain the studio, teach classes, and assist in the work of the artist you're apprenticing for. Then, if you're trying to make your own work to sell for yourself, you have to pay for the materials and firings, but that's because the work you're doing is for your business, not the business of the artists you're apprenticing. The pay rate is probably the below the minimum wage, I think it's justified by the amount of education/mentorship you're receiving in addition to your labor, but I think most ceramic artists also try to pay to make sure their apprentices can live, and acknowledge they're doing labor while they're learning. Perhaps with the beauty industry and tattooing it's different because there's safety with the client involved, versus with ceramics you're mostly trying not to harm yourself, other people in the studio, and the equipment. Also, if apprenticing in tattooing really guarantees you a job, maybe it's justifiable where you should pay for your apprenticeship. With ceramics, there's no such guarantee, especially where many artists are competing for teaching jobs or trying to run their own successful business. That said, from my perspective, I feel that tattoo shop owners or artists with their own studios should be paying their apprentices who help with the upkeep of the studio and managing schedules. Like I said above, you can justify a lower pay rate through the education, but it's still labor! Even if people may feel more "invested" by paying to get an education, I think there is as much psychological incentive in not getting "fired" or losing an income stream. In fact, since they're usually getting underpaid, apprentices have to be believe in the investment of being underpaid to gain skills and really want to learn the craft. So many artists are forced to take a second job before they financially make it and go into debt, I think the apprenticeship should not have to contribute to that if possible by having the trainees pay and do free labor.

[@rissahere]

I guess I don't understand not being paid. You can't take out a student loan like I did for nursing school to support myself and pay tuition. If you are there every day how would someone be able to live day to day and have time for another profession if they are doing social media, ordering etc?

[@mmmyum4779]

I would rather pay to go to school then have to do bish work for 6 months to get 2 weeks worth of learning

[@mikaela1197]

This seems wild to me. As a working professional in the Biotech space (with a degree), literally every office job (and lots of field-based jobs like mine) out there involves the more senior employees taking LOTS OF TIME out of their days to train and teach new employees. I myself have spent countless hours training my colleagues on the systems that I work on. Do they pay me for that training? Absolutely not. It's part of the overhead cost of running a business. It's called on-the-job training, and as an employee you get paid to show up and learn the skills needed to properly do the job. If you don't do well, don't pay attention, or just don't care to learn, you get fired. How are younger, new employees with no experience ever supposed to get the training they need if they are expected to work a full time job with no pay while still having the same cost of living as the rest of us working professionals? The tattoo industry needs to change

[@kellylyons1038]

Exactly! I can see why the tattoo industry is hiding behind the excuse of their sordid past and being underground/illegal/taboo for a long time. But its 2023, why is indentured servitide a norm in a booming, lucrative industry?! How is a tattoo apprenticeship any different than any other company that uses overhead to train new employees? Being a struggling shop is no excuse. If you cannot afford to hire someone for all the manual labor and front end, then you need to evaluate your business. That's how it goes for all struggling business. (Even though many tattoo shops make good money.)

[@mikaela1197]

@@kellylyons1038Absolutely! Glad to hear someone else agrees. In most states there are actual laws that explicitly outline why and how you need to pay employees that are in their training phase too. While I can partially understand likening the actual learning time while an apprentice is just observing their mentor as being like the equivalent to a tradee attending trade school classes, it blows my mind that things like cleaning the shop, managing a shop's social media page, doing admin/scheduling work has not been called out as a labor law violation before. I really hope for the sake of everyone involved that this practice changes and apprentices get the same protections as all other U.S. employees.

[@DomDaBom]

I think you can either trade shop/instagram/cleaning work for teaching, OR you can pay your mentor for learning but that is all you do, no shop work or social media management. To me, working at the shop (and have a schedule requirement where you HAVE to be there just like any other job) AND having to pay your mentor is just a scam. Just because "that's how it works" doesn't make it right or mean the "standard" shouldn't be updated.

[@somerandomlad0458]

This feels like a real American phenomena tbh. Not a tattoo artist but am doing an apprenticeship in Australia and my company pays me a wage which goes up each year (4 year apprenticeship), they pay for me to go to TAFE (which is trade school) as well as reimbursing me for TAFE fees (though most companies pay fees for you). Unpaid labour is just a crazy concept honestly even if you're getting taught during it.

[@knowartist3383]

is this a job/career with a union???

[@nephone]

Yes school is free, but in school you're not responsible for cleaning the building or managing the supplies etc etc etc. I didn't get paid to study but i did get paid for the mandatory internship, because i was doing work for the company. Yes i was learning at the same time, this doesn't negate the fact that i was doing work that the company would have to pay someone to do otherwise.

[@TheVampyreNinja]

So I think the argument about “well, you pay to go to hair school to do a trade, therefore you should pay to be apprenticed at a tattoo shop.” is almost like comparing apples and oranges, because those places products are solely learning institutions. Where as an apprentice is expected to basically do secretarial work while learning. I think a more reasonable comparison might be a pharmacy where if you wish to be a full licensed pharmacist you work as a pharmacist while learning on the side. Or within some states, teachers. Where you are able to teach while learning (usually by a secondary institute, but not exclusively so) on the side. I think student teachers at universities is the best example of that. And yes, Student teachers get paid. I have been wanting to get into tattooing for so long, but I’m also at a point where I NEED full time work to survive. I can’t work for free, so maybe my views on the drama is a bit on the bias side, but that’s how I feel.

[@senjak.2357]

Maybe it is the standard in some countries, but in finland it would be very odd to pay to learn a profession since even college is free. You only buy your supplies. There are non paid internships yes, but we dont usually pay for any professions

[@marmeus]

If you create value for a business you should be paid, if you are just learning (like people do at school etc) you should not, and that's about it... There is one people who seems informed that actually know what she is talking about and few others that just tell what they think in these videos without giving it too much thought. But the world of tattooing seems quite special on this topic and not very regulated. It kind of remind me of the artists who are paid in exposure... 😅 If you want your student to pay you, learn them how to draw or w/e and th'ats it, as long as they are not actually doing labour for you. And the Matt's situation just doesn't make any sense, no one pays anyone but the student has to do what if he worked at the shop (+some extras it seems) while not really having any follow-up behind ? It looks horrible and exploitation, I understand why the guy from the last video put an end to that mess tbh

[@cholesterolkilla]

Normal ≠ right Apprenticeships sound like on the job training which should always be payed.

[@TamagoSenshi]

"My mentors are more invested in me" is such a coping mechanism

[@junglebright]

Apprenticeships should be paid. I think a big reason why people in the industry are on the fence about it is the sunk-cost fallacy. After already paying for an apprenticeship and/or sinking in plenty of unpaid labor, it is emotionally a lot harder to demand what is legally owed because it forces the apprentice to admit they willingly let themselves get taken advantage of. That same ego is why tattoo artists think "I didn't get paid for the work I did, so you shouldn't either" is a justifiable reason TO. BREAK. THE. LAW. This idea commonly crops up among parents, too. "My parents hit me, but I turned out fine! So, I can hit my kids because they will turn out fine!" No. They did not turn out fine. They became people who think it is okay to take advantage of and enact their will upon someone who depends on them. It is an abusive cycle. It is illegal. It is immoral. The practice of unpaid apprenticeships needs to end.

[@PercyNah]

Why would you pay for an apprenticeship? It's not school, the artist is not a trained educator, and you're doing work for them while learning *on the job*. It doesn't matter if the artist thinks this labour isn't "strenuous" - it's still labour, and that's something we pay for. You shouldn't be charged to go work for someone, no matter how great the career, that's absurd.

[@zannadunstrand6289]

WHAT?! In Sweden i’ve never heard them NOT getting paid?! Sounds crazy

[@seanlacroix]

That’s horseshit. Any place where you’re an apprentice you should be paid. When you work in electrical, plumbing, automotive mechanic or any other trade they are all paid apprenticeships. At least in Canada anyway. The only thing you should be paying for is tools/equipment you need for the job.

[@akashafedorus7264]

being an apprentice and an employee are separate, so if youre doing labor or work around a shop that is not actually tattooing then you are being scammed 100% when you arent paid, in a hair salon apprenticeship you still have to pay that person for the work they do, you just dont pay them for their clients

[@akashafedorus7264]

if you wanted to not pay an employee then you rent out chairs in your studio for other people

[@Cheesecake.Slices]

Idk this was a very surface level video with no self reflection. You can say how privledged you are and note how it's inaccessible to a lot of other people, but still be unsure what's right or wrong? Working five days a week unpaid is unacceptable. You are being taken advantage of. The same applied to unpaid internships. Taking advantage of people and making it completely inaccessible to those who are less privledged. I wish you would actually reflect on this instead of leaning on your personal circumstance bias so hard.

[@Arania_3.14]

Sure, you deserve to be compensated for teaching someone (if you don't wanna do it out of the goodness of your heart), but you expect someone to do labor for you AND pay you? And coming from a place with free education - this whole idea that you need to pay for your apprenticeship is wild

[@BeUnadulterated]

I don't think you can conflate paying for school versus paying for an apprenticeship. If you are paying for a school I am assuming it is accredited and there are standards. You can take legal action, in theory, should issues arise. What protections do you have as an apprentice if you are just paying a tattoo artist for their expertise? Just as in many fields a talented or skilled person doesn't equate to a great teacher or educator. I can see paying for you own gear. If you want to pay for guidance on your art and tattooing I can understand that but if you are doing work... you are doing work and should be paid. If I go to school I am not required to stock school supplies, do office work, manage the school's social media, or clean the school. They hire people to do that work... because it is work. As a student I am paying to be educated.

[@nicolecastrogiovanni385]

I understand not being paid to learn how to tattoo because it’s almost like going to college. But when I’m sweeping and mopping and cleaning bathrooms and helping with other peoples equipment, than I’m sorry, you gotta pay me something. You don’t see students at a college mopping and taking out the trash

[@shanenorthcott9244]

💵 The artist at 9:24 clearly has never worked anywhere else in her life. Tonnes of jobs have 'on the job' training. I work in the Pharmaceutical Industry which I had no qualifications prior to starting. I was taught everything I needed to know while I was working AND being paid. I was taught by my supervisor. That's part of their job, to teach new employees how to do the job. Comparing people paying for an education to what is being referred to as an apprentice is completely wrong. People paying for an education are doing nothing but learning. They're not doing 'grunt' work like cleaning, inventory management, social media management etc. That stuff is WORK. Students who PAY for education also sometimes have part time jobs that they get PAID for. Bottom line is: if you're WORKING, you should be PAID for it.

[@gremlin_lorde]

I think it's a mixed bag. You should be paid for the work that you do for the shop. But you should also pay your mentors for teaching you. It like being a teachers aid in college. You're paying the tuition for classes. But you also get paid to help your teachers do Mundane tasks. 💵

[@Bigbluedragon9]

I worked in a workshop as an apprentice and I got payed. My labour wasn't as valuable as a journeyman, I got payed less. If you are working with clients, cleaning up, getting supplies and other stuff, why whouldn't you get payed. If people say, the shop isn't as invested in you if you get payed, that would be a lie, because they are paying you, they want you to get up to snuff even faster, so you can pull your weight.

[@SimmSumm]

Imma just open up a tattoo school. This is absolutely insane. New artist deserve to have a set number of hours doing nothing but learning and having time to work and make money.

[@felix-ve8jk]

Fantastic idea! Every tattoo school that's existed to this point has been a scam. So cheers to you for opening one up and getting government funding.

[@Culky]

The problematic part is that there's no standard for the educational value that a mentor should be providing so it's going to vary wildly. Some internships will be awesome launchpads for an intern's career, and others will be little more than exploitation. It's really up to the intern to judge which situation they're in.

[@toltorg]

Y’all are getting scammed by paying for your apprenticeship while not being paid for your work. I feel really sorry for you and anyone else who considers this normal.

[@SuperAnonymouze]

At my current job, we had a highschooler shadowing us for the day, and she, trying to be helpful, tried to help us with the trash at the end of the day. This was quickly shut down by my boss as it was illegal because she wasn't being paid. I think that kind of says it all. I find the "Cleaning the studio is a form of learning" sentiment to be incredibly alarming. I'm not saying that mopping the floor isn't valuable experience... But every type of work means you gain experience. What other job pays you less because you can put "1 year experience doing this job" on a resume after you finish? You get paid because you're benefiting your employer, not based on whether or not you end up learning something. I went to college, did a work/study program, and was a class tutor. I paid for the classes, for the books, for most of the art materials. I went to class, I did homework, I paid the school for that experience. I went to my work study job, I got paid by the school. I sat for office hours, I got paid. All that money went towards my tuition, and it didn't cover all of it, so I can definitely imagine that there are tattoo apprenticeships where, even if they were being paid, they'd still owe the studio money. It definitely depends on the amount and value of work they're doing for the studio, vs instruction and value of instruction from the artist. At a bare minimum there needs to be acknowledgement that the work the apprentice is doing for the studio is COMPENSATION for what they are being taught, not something they are learning to do.

[@laurathompson7922]

There really should be two parts to an apprenticeship. Initially, you just learn. You learn how to tattoo, how to use the machines, practice and get correction on fake skin or other mediums. And for that, you should pay for your apprenticeship. But during this period, thats all you should be doing. The second phase, however long it takes to get there, is actually doing tattoos on clients, maintaining the shop, cleaning, running social media, etc. You are learning that portion, but now you're doing payable labor and should be paid at least minimum wage. You are essentially a new employee at that point; learning the job, but still doing work. It should be paid at that point.

[@nataszaholowatinc2556]

Lynn's comments are wonderful to hear. I was never unpaid for my construction apprenticeships. But being poor has kept me from working as an artist. I can't afford good supplies or good equipment to digitize my work, no free time to find or start art communities, labouring for a living saps your energy and will so you never have the luxury of time to create or post material online, and I couldn't afford a tattoo apprenticeship if my life depended on it, which it does right now. I'm aging, disabled, unemployable, down to my last $1000 from my last contract and I'm teaching myself how to tattoo with no clue how to move forward. This industry is turning away amazing artists before they can even begin to dream of a career. Its not just criminal, its evil.

[@nataszaholowatinc2556]

Forgot to mention that most artists live in poverty. So much wasted talent and potential.

[@felix-ve8jk]

Industry is not turning away anyone. If people have raw talent for tattooing and the ability to put work into skin, they always find a way. When I think of the best tattooers alive today, every single one of them is obsessed with tattooing. There is literally not one person on the planet that could've stopped them. This is a very underground, folk art skill. Only recently has the attention of tattooing caused the industry to bloat so much and attract so many "artists" who probably wouldn't have come here 20 years ago.

[@IveGotABulletproofHeart]

Unpaid work shouldn’t be normalized, if someone takes an apprentice in they should pay them.

[@cook.b6285]

In my field, addiction and mental health, we all do unpaid internships and half the time dont get the opportunity to get a job out of it at the end. We deff did all that work the woman was speaking on. I got puked on, screamed at, punched towards, etc. but also got hugs, letters, conversations, friendships and patient relationships that are 110% worth not being paid. I was PAID in EXPERIENCE and MENTORSHIP. As well as needed clinical hours lol. But just sayin, in my field we dont get paid either. If you land a paid internship kudos, you are one of the lucky ones.

[@noodlesdoodles1795]

This and this other video where you talked about patchwork sleeve kinda stems (i think) from this weird mindset that alot of established tattoo artists have of "I had to go through it so you do to." . Also hearing an artist of all people saying "paid through opportunity" is a dead giveaway to how out of touch they've become.

[@lilyrosiexoxo]

In the UK we literally call apprenticeships “earn while you learn” aka you get paid. Not much, but paid nonetheless

[@flynn5080]

9:03 “i advocate for paying for learning how to tattoo because it keeps everyone accountable and invested in the apprentice actually learning” the minds of americans are so warped by late stage capitalism that they started genuinely believing that you have to pay thousands to get people to do the bare minimum. you shouldn’t have to spend money for you teacher to be invested in your progress, that’s what every self-respecting educator would do regardless of payment. working for free (mopping the floors, cleaning toilets, etc) is absolutely insane. apprenticeship and internship are very similar in the sense that if you work, you get paid. it’s very sad to see you trying to justify this disgusting practice.

[@Inked.Medusa]

I’m a mom and have always wanted to be a body piercer, for the longest time I figured I could never do it because I didn’t have the means to work 5/6 days a week for no pay. My child needs things that require me to make a living. I am beyond pleased that I found an apprentice at a shop that’s been around for 30+ years and PAYS me to learn because I also provide customer service in the shop. They interviewed for the position and look for the right individuals to invest in like any other job does. This is definitely not the norm in the industry but things in the industry need to change. So many talented and passionate people are being blocked out of the industry just because they need to afford to live.

[@niwoniwo]

Apprenticeship is just (or should be!) like an internship or like any entry level job. In almost every qualified job there is a formation and learning period and you still get paid for that time. This is something similar. And I say this coming from the film industry (which i had to leave since I needed to earn money) where many productions and projects will not pay you since they are just offeirng you "the opportunity" and "experience". It is free labor.

[@erinhthorn]

This is so weird coming from a country, where you get paid as an apprentice. It would be illegal not to be paid for being an apprentice (apprenticeship takes normally 3 years). There are actually laws, that force employers to take on a certain number of apprentices and pay them - a lot less than a normal employee, but still: paid. You are not paid, if you go to university, but you don‘t have to pay for going there either.

[@elipren]

If you do work you should get paid period. Also paying for your education is such American thing. I cannot image doing that in Europe.

[@elipren]

@@CrawlingPanther but not for all schols and definitely not as much as in America.

[@AllyYoko]

I'm from a country that pays apprentices, so I heavily disagree with the implied notion that paying a mentor would make them more attentive. Here it is very much the case that the apprentices do the work noone else wants to do ( cleaning, etc) on top of the work they do where they actively learn a skill. A lot of shops cannot function without that cheaper labor and are therefore very appreciative. I also have to say that it's a tough spot, idk how your studio would react if you said you should be paid seeing as you're still there...

[@Sitou-vr2qv]

This video sounds like you feel the need to defend your employer and is pretty yucky tbh. I went to college and paid for it, yet, they didn't make me clean the classrooms floor

[@MorganVsTheInternet]

I understand paying an artist to learn from them but doing front desk tasks or manual labor for the studio shouldn't be a part of the apprenticeship! Teaching your apprentice how to clean their station or book an appointment is one thing but unless the artists take turns cleaning that bathroom there is zero reason why a student has to do the dirty work!

[@summerchild_]

Paying for working is such a gringo concept, i can't even. How am i supposed to survive if im working 6 hs a day for free?

[@skylertrotta3547]

If you're going to school for something it's normal to pay. If you're working at a shop, cleaning things, etc. you deserve to be paid. At least in Canada its illegal to not pay someone working at an establishment unless its a practicum provided by a university or college.

[@viincreations]

My question is how are u going to afford to live when the shops wants you full time unpaid?? It would be cool if they only want u part time that way you can have a real paying partime job too, I wanna be an apprentice but have bills to pay I can’t afford it rn 😢

[@NicoleDelvilleBurke]

It's absolutely unethical to not pay apprentices for the work they are doing for the shop and artists that are not part of their key learning. If you are doing shop and inventory management, social media, cleaning etc that otherwise someone else would be paid for, that is paid work and you should also be paid for. It's not fair to say it's like school - school isn't using students to provide a profit for them, they just teach. If your apprentice is only being taught but not providing work for your tattoo business, maybe that can cross into just "education" but as it stands, most apprentices are providing labour for free which is unethical. Edit to add: if you want to charge for the time spent educating the person, I think that's fine. Paying for education is normal. But you need to pay them for the work.

[@trade5716]

Interesting video and well thought out! Definitely something I've considered before, as someone from a very poor economic background - I can see arguments for both sides. Would be great to have a more accessible career, but I completely understand the point that it's similar to attending university. Thanks for such an insightful video, I appreciate you examining both sides!

[@starshiiinebby]

Why are people acting like paying someone minimum wage to do the shop work is a wild ass concept. Tf.