Tinctures Are OP On the Warden | PoE 3.25

[@Lolcohol]

Did this blow your mind too? Are you considering swapping to Tinctures after this video?

[@mszubski]

yeah, poison balista here we go :D

[@erutherford]

I'm not all the way through the video but no this didn't blow my mind at all as we already do this with other non-tincture things anyway. To me though until everything is automated then I won't like it ... As for how good tinctures can be I would hope it would be good IF you spent multiple ascendancy perks, multiple passive wheels & mastery, and gearing [get your tinctures set up just right] ..

[@Lungfisher]

You are going to click, every ~8 seconds for two tinctures? Is there a way to automate does instilling work?

[@zwieldin]

If they have the old any damage can poison back that would be awesome haha

[@patrickb8127]

decicion is made, something melee warden LS/EH/ or FB Warden :D mixed with heralds for starting flat dmg and trinity etc later ahhhhh my mind is going nutz :D

[@ClockworkGFX]

They brought flask piano back and it requires a build around.

[@izaruburs9389]

It's even worse because you can't just spam the buttons at random or you would deactivate the tinctures manualy before you reach the full 6s free duration. So you will have to actively track the cooldown of your 'flasks' in order to utilize their potential. It's one of the worst things I could imagine.

[@KeyenFureur]

@@izaruburs9389 You are at risk of disabling them like 3,5s after pressing them. The chance of it happening is very low, at worst you are clicking during the lingering effect and nothing happens.

[@izaruburs9389]

@@KeyenFureur At worst you disable them before you get your stacks up which would mean you lose the tincture for some part of it's cooldown. At best you will be clicking it every couple of seconds, every single map you do. It's just added friction to your gameplay that will either get people back to macros or people will not use them in the long run.

[@ivanciuandrei]

You read my thoughts precisely 😂

[@khiljaz9245]

Was going to comment this as well :)

[@ryandugan9176]

The appeal of tinctures for me was that they were a completely automated alternative to a flask without requiring mageblood or conditionals on the flasks. This just looks like tedium and mana cost for offensive scaling instead of defensive scaling on a patch where defensive scaling is more necessary. I hope you guys have fun with it.

[@vegabondtenai9948]

Exactly this

[@lolersthe4th880]

The potential power is insane. I'll be honest, if it does turn out to be really busted, even with all the major inconveniences PoE players will run it. I don't think many are willing to risk it on league start of course, but if a week in or so, people are popping off on Warden, I'd put money in seeing it jump up in player use by a large amount.

[@davidgoodman4208]

Did GGG forget there's already a huge opportunity cost to using a tincture instead of a flask, before you now add in durations and mana burn, on top of the need to spec into it on your tree with precious skill/ascendancy points? They'll need to be extremely flexible and powerful to make up for that.

[@chandaman95]

You could just get weeping wounds or a little bit of mana regen/leech. Lol it's just balance.

[@noiseisgold3n42]

I agree with you, but don't forget that everything in poe has an opportunity cost. Which means efficient sources of damage/defense are extremely important. So IF the damage was good enough, it could absolutely justify the cost of 2 flasks and mana management. This would allow you to drop offense somewhere else and pick up defense using that resource instead.

[@AutoTauri]

New unique coming soon: Replica Mageblood, you are unaffected by mana burn

[@owa1985]

You can equip (1-2) more tinctures.

[@Neriehem]

More like: Your leftmost (2-4) flasks don't require charges, instead taking a [0.5% - 0.7%] of your maximum life per charge that would be used. "Thaumaturgy is a study of bodily and etheral. We have managed to turn your blood into etheral!" Edit. Changed values, it could also work with a % of current life. But I think these new values are somewhat decent and could be worked around. It would work with all flasks too, so all unique flasks are on the table.

[@owa1985]

@@Neriehem Yo, Ivory tower doesn't need more buffs lmao

[@michaelscott2093]

@@Neriehem im almost positive there is a unique that makes mana burn hit life

[@P.J.M]

They can definitely be powerful, but the opportunity cost of 4 ascendency points, however many passive points (8+ it seems), 2 flasks, and having to actively press those 2 buttons on cooldown or all the above is just wasted... still not sold that it’s all worth it

[@IcaroOito]

If wasn't for the lack of automation I would be sold. You can get 100% uptime in 3 flasks with that. Helps a lot with resistances+ 6% max res. (I did a scuffed PoB where I got that flask duration+10% effect node in corner)

[@prosamis]

​@@IcaroOito it's really not that bad. We're talking a couple clicks every 12 seconds total

[@Member_zero]

@@prosamis it is that bad. And losing 4 ascendancy is also not something you want to do - warden has a lot of cool ascendancy points for freeze, shock you don't want to skipp with out good reason IMO. And you want 2 tinctures if you'll want to get into this. So there's 2 more buttons. Your build already has a lot of buttons to press. They removed automation from curses and stuff. One of the first thing I make with every build is have auto-flasks. That's one of my first goals. Because it's tedium. If tinctures would be automated, I could see it. But as it is ... not for me.

[@Hateful_Bug]

I dont know cuh, removing totems to just add "totems" that steal 2 flask slots/4 ascendacies points/pathing and points to tincture clusters - Im not sold on that, like at all.

[@Neriehem]

@@Member_zero this league getting auto-flasks will be a pain and some more, because you can't buy flask quality currency from vendors anymore.

[@minhocho5487]

My major problem with Warden is the fact that I cant take all the acendency nodes. Bro this acendency is the new inquisitor for me, I want every singel node.

[@SuperCatacata]

Luckily barkskin looks pretty mediocre compared to how insane the other nodes are.. So I won't feel bad about spending those points elsewhere.

[@Deadbeat-Senpai]

@@SuperCatacata Yeah, I want barkskin but because I then look at the other stuff and now I'm thinking, there are other ways to get defense right? I mean, right?

[@hogmuncher]

@@Deadbeat-Senpai barksin defense isnt very good anyways trying to get endurance charges is kinda the best you can do imo

[@Andriak2]

Nah barkskin is slept on

[@minhocho5487]

@@SuperCatacata 10% reservation for what they offer is good value imo

[@LongX49]

the league haven't started and people already posting PHD thesis in the sub. amazing

[@uchto4]

Well it has to be as strong since you‘re spending like 10 passive points on it and ascendancy points and you give up flasks. So all in all the investment for these tinctures are pretty high.

[@9979839]

Always nice to have a new lolcohol video served right before bedtime. I'm watching it in bed

[@ArrakOfNorway]

Was a really fun experience to have the author in your chat and get some explanation for it all. I noticed that the latest PoB that was pushed out today (v.2.43.0) DOES have tinktures in it, so its time to play around with this.

[@kitsune_UwU]

They should allow us to craft used when ready on tinctures then I would consider the heavy tincture investment.

[@mericgencturk]

Militant faith - templar avarius is a must if we are going to use this tech. otherwise it will be a problem burning maximum mana off of your remaining unreserved mana. the timeless jewel converts our 80% max mana into twice that much armour which would have a positive effect on sustaining mana loss per second with ez flat mana regens. ofc this means that you may have hard time reserving auras that have flat costs. such as vitality.

[@j.d.6915]

While I understand that you want to apply the manaburn as fast as possible, do you really need to? If your tincture is going to be active for 6 seconds after manaburn drops off, then it should be up infinitely as long as the manaburn drops off in less than six seconds, aside from the initial ramp up. In fact, wouldn't it be better to have a few seconds of downtime to regen mana? The tincture should still be up due to it being 6 seconds long. Would the second tincture even be necessary for manaburn purposes?

[@Reashu]

You don't really need it as fast as possible, no - just fast enough that you hit 12 stacks before you run out of mana. Since mana burn stacks up at a variable rate but drains mana at a fixed rate, stacking it faster reduces the amount of mana drained before you reach 12 stacks.

[@SoshiroGames]

Its not difficult: it doesnt matter how slow or fast you get the mana burn stacks or how much it degens. getting 12 mana burn stacks is ALWAYS a flat 6 seconds free up time.

[@SoshiroGames]

By that logic, getting stacks faster means less TOTAL mana burnt for the 6 FLAT free seconds of tincture uptime

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah if we get stacks more quickly during the 7-11 burn stacks, we are only burning mana for a shorter time if that makes sense

[@radicalindividual7774]

Say you only get 1 mana burn every 1 second... No effect until 7. (Probably better math people needed, but kinda-sorta accurate) That's still 1+2+3+4+5+6=21% Mana consumed for it to activate on slower Tinctures over 6 seconds for 6 stacks... It'll definitely still hurt. But if you can get .5 seconds per Stack, it's 2+4+6 over 3 seconds. 12% over 3 seconds Or .4 per second, it's 12% over 2.4 seconds. I think you would need like .33... per Stack before it goes from 12% down to 9% Mana over 2 seconds. But we don't know what mods it goes up to so .33 seems plausible for now. Lower than that, it's already less expensive than a single Attack anyways, so Attack+Tincture Mana Leeched in a single attack should be easily solved. But 21% over 6 seconds... If you're around 800 mana, that hits hard. That's eating a 2nd Attack 2 or 3 seconds in, and eats basically one attack every second for the remainder. Compared to .4 Tinctures eating basically 20 per second for 2.4 seconds.

[@justinhowe3878]

I think there's an uncertain assumption being made here. If I'm reading it correctly, the mana math assumes that stack 7 starts at 1% mana loss/s. But it's not clear that "The first 6 Mana Burn applied to you have no effect" should be read that way. It could simply be that stacks 1-6 do not cause mana loss, and then stack 7 starts at 7% mana loss/s (per the description of Mana Burn, which is that it causes 1% mana loss per stack per second). This would still mean that you want to stack mana burn as fast as possible, but the mana loss during stacks 7-11 would be higher than 3.8% (~10-11% instead) in the example given.

[@kennethburmeister8119]

Even if we don't get full stacks reaching 9-10 would still give us 100% uptime granted tincture is cd of 5 or less, but more button press per rotation and higher rotation cycle...I think poison is an interesting choice for this ascendency.

[@Qzzz84]

exactly. 7th secong it kicks in with full 7 seconf effect stacked. 7 second is 1 workin 1st stack (1% mana loss/s) + 2nd stcack (1+1=2%) + 3rd stack (1+1+1=3%) + 4th stack (extra 4%) etc.. at 7th secong u get 1+2+3+4+5+6+7= 28% at this very moment.. 5 more secons of this and you rly need A LOT OF MANA REGEN to take advantage of this

[@michaelscott2093]

if its exponential like that tinctures are unusable. At 10 stacks you would be burning 40% of your mana. It has to be 1% per stack so the 7th stack only burns you for 1%.

[@Reashu]

I think the interpretation used in the video is correct. "The first 6 stacks have no effect" as opposed to "no effect while you have 6 stacks or fewer". It _could_ be that you start with 7% burn at 7 stacks, then 8% at 8 stacks, etc.. But the idea (floated in replies) that the 8th stack would add 8% on top of 7% from the 7th (for 15% total), then the 9th would add 9% (for 24%) is not supported by the wording nor common sense.

[@stillprophet7529]

This is cool and all but I'd much rather get to a point where I can sustain 6% mana per second, slow down the mana burn as much as possible and only have to reactivate the tinctures once every 30+ seconds

[@latincristo]

Minus the doubling the mana burn I had kinda already figured all this out from looking at the pob

[@HXRDWIREDGaming]

I want to point out, if you take 2 pots, you get either the armor OR an element buff but you do not get that furthest node in the ascendacy. (unless you want to put it on ranged as well*)

[@TL-fe9si]

Tinctures enchant on benchcrafting just like flasks! It has to be

[@dotwarner3609]

So if they made a unique like mageblood for tinctures, how would that have to work?

[@RamzaBehoulve]

Reminder Ascendant can use both the new Gladiator War of Attrition AND the Warden double tincture... So, some sort of Dual Wielding melee build looks juicy.

[@Damaniel3]

As long as the first proc after the initial 6 only applies one stack and not 7, this is looking pretty good.

[@ILoveMyBGE]

Thank you so much for the explanation. I have a strong aversion to constant pressing of flasks but I am going to try and keep an open mind when I start comparing different builds. But to be fair, that is a TON of investment, there had better be a HUGE upside. That many skill points and ascendancy points and 2 flask slots is a really really large investment.

[@Elunvira]

It's stated to be around 60% increased damage. Obviously that can change depending on interactions, but think just going elemental style is around 300%

[@ILoveMyBGE]

@@Elunvira It was 60% MORE damage, not Increased damage. Here is the exact line from one of the math examples in the reddit post "this tincture is alone a 61% MORE DAMAGE"

[@doomzx8284]

It is around 15 + passive skill points to invest into tinctures and another trade off is for that amount of points you lose 1 or 2 flasks ( depending how many tinctures u want ), you lose an entire Large Cluster for example etc AND you lose another 4 to 6 ( 2 or 3 labs of points ) ascendency points that you could use for other stuff on Warden, question is is it worth giving up on that much stuff? I'm not saying it's not, just trying to understand if it is ^^ That's something we will have to test I guess

[@joshuahensley9395]

I haven't really heard anyone say they were bad, more that they might be clunky and we need to try them in game

[@hellotristan8632]

i think new mana cost changes & removal of divine blessing is GGG trying to incentivize the use of all of the mana you oversustain typically, they want you to leave more of a portion of ur mana unreserved & invest in things that can spend it, that’s what the vision for divine blessing was, before everyone just continued fully reserving with eldritch battery

[@Smell7it]

Thanks!

[@Lolcohol]

Oh wow! My first super message! Thank youuuu!!

[@KALClFER]

Typical POE players in the comments complaining about pressing more than 1 button in a VIDEO GAME...just go play an idle gacha game is what I recommend them

[@bertmollar]

What happend if you just do bloodmagic

[@xXVintersorgXx]

There's a keystone that lets you take health damage instead

[@MrGaldor123]

I mean i could be wrong, but the tincture effects don't seem that strong. You're investing half your ascendancy points and quite a few passive points to basically get 2 tinctures almost full uptime. Though you still have to manually activate the tinctures. Is it worth it? Possibly.

[@koopk1]

I mean i didnt even know you could speed up mana burn on tinctures...but now that i know it makes sense

[@billytheframe1355]

Whats your thoughts on Tinctures not supporting Shield melee skills?

[@ExiledVessel]

Yep I've shared similar thoughts about the level requirements w/ mods, however I didn't math out the potential damage scaling with nerdy math part. I think tinctures on non warden will be still really good. You could do shaper for example and deactive the tincture during ball or add phase and then activate it again during a beam phase. Yes its a little micro managementy but it would be instant its not a skill its a flask.

[@JetcannonM]

Legacy of the Wilds "secret" oil anoint node reads "Tinctures have 40% increased effect while AT or ABOVE 10 Mana Burn stacks". So it would boost a mod like "64% increased Mana Burn rate" by 40% making it burn much faster once you hit 10 mana burns instantly ramping it up to 12 where it ends with the Mastery activated. But I suspect there will be another tech with delaying mana burn by reducing it while also increasing the effect of the mana burn mods on the Tincture resulting in a controlled burn with a specific sweet spot and mods with certain burn values will be very coveted. Because even though you have 1 tech of a fast burn the developers haven't made it the only solution for ideal usage because then that makes everything else like reduced mana burn "useless". I believe Tinctures will have sweet spots of burn mod values where you want it to burn slow and then ramp so that your other flasks refill from the other Tincture Masteries. If you just burn fast all the time and remove the first 6 burns then you miss out on a certain % flask refill. Everything sounds good but I think the 12 burn deactivate is a bit of a bait since the longer it burns the more refill you'll get back. So it becomes a question of if you want your Tincture to be constantly off cooldown ready for use or do you want your Tincture to have a small delay before next use but all flasks constantly refilled activating over and over with "Use when charges reach full" craft. Also.. the Mastery "Flasks adjacent to Tinctures gain 10% increased effect" might imply that if you have 2 Tinctures you want to space them out in slot 2 and slot 4 so all flasks have a adjacent Tincture. And also.. does that mean that the flask in the 3rd spot receives a 20% increased effect because it has 2 Tinctures adjacent affecting it on either side?

[@seanj5249]

When you have 2 tinctures running at the same time do the mana burns stack or are they separate? I'm wondering if you can activate 2 simultaneously, get 12 free stacks and burn 0 mana

[@TableForRambo]

People aren't realizing you can realistically achieve 111% increased effect of tinctures just from the tree. 20% from small ascendancy nodes, 25% from 4 point Nature's Concoction wheel, 18% from 3 point Practiced Reapplication wheel, 48% from 3 point Colloidal Mixture wheel (-15% if you don't use life flasks). We can still get an additional 35% from the Tinctures themselves. Waiting on the mods, but the scaling seems GOOD

[@evilfiendish9787]

This is how you site your sources people. Well done.

[@owa1985]

Having played with an ivory tower build that requires coruscating to be on all the time, this is all sorts of ptsd triggering. Time to hear a whole lot of ranger dying noise I guess.

[@petrjara7559]

In my build I usually can squeeze ~3% more dps per passive point in late game or even 4-5% with cluster passives. Ascendancy notables should be at least like 10% each and flasks around 5% minimum. With all the resources you need for this I'd get 128% more DPS bare minimum. In reality it's more like 180+ or well over 200% with cluster jewels. So yeah, if your tinctures can do 80% more DPS each, then they are kinda balanced.

[@hdim1]

This means giving up 8 tree points, 2 (or 4) ascendency points which in my eyes make / break warden PLUS 1 (or 2) flasks, plus maybe mageblood. So buffed tinctures (~ 80% increased effectiveness from talents) should make up for the above investment *including the actual flasks* Plus, we need to plan without knowing what tinctures give at the moment.

[@jtheist32]

I really wish the node that allowed tinctures to apply to ranged weapons was bundled in with the 2nd tincture node. I'm guessing it isn't because tinctures can roll +projectiles during effect.

[@xXVintersorgXx]

The linger mechanic should be default for all classes

[@kane2056]

Missing automation is by far the biggest problem with tinctures. Pressing one (or with the ascendancy note two) tinctures every 10-ish seconds and having to manually track the cooldowns is just terrible qol. Give me an enchant for "Used when cooldown is over" or something similar and I'll start considering using them, but without that? Nah thanks, if it makes the build feel like a chore to play I'm not going to use it, doesn't matter if it would double my damage.

[@popcorn32145]

Feels like to me though, once you hit 7 stacks, unless you have a ton of free mana unreserved and a bunch of leech, you would just instantly use all ur mana. Ending the tinctures.

[@Leafbinder]

Dosnt MageBlood Belt auto flask?

[@Lolcohol]

It doesn't:(

[@eskileriksson4457]

R/user dizijinwuu asked the same question that struck me, about the wording "The first 6 Mana Burn applied to you have no effect." It could be that the stack count, besides going up, also counts as moving up the tablet of mana burn. So that you start at 7% mana burn from stack seven, and go up from there. Could still be that we start at 1% at stack seven, but since the wording might be a bit ambiguous, I think we should plan our mana management (!) accordingly. Could also be that we are both hopeless cynics, and that GGG:s wording is, as always, crystal clear.

[@eskileriksson4457]

Gement is important. Few things are worse than running out of mana...

[@KeyenFureur]

@@eskileriksson4457 It got asked multiple times on the post (and longer answers as for why I think it's like this are there). Basically, the wording would have been very different if it jumped to 7% on the 7th stack.

[@netta7563]

If Warden is going to be broken then it is also going to be nerfed, so in my opinion is not worth investing too much on it untill they get it right, we will see...

[@michaelscott2093]

also i think the problem with tinctures was always is there a payoff. GGG was definitely going to give you the option to invest enough to get 100% uptime especially if regular cdr also applies to this. The problem is the tinctures look weak for the investment. Hopefully the unique ones that probably exist are op as hell to make this setup worth it.

[@Hasibo95]

Kinda shocked to see so many "not worth it" posts here. With so much damage being on them, you can build your tree completely different, invest more in qol and defensive stats. It is more active yes, and you cant choose all the good notes, but thats just good design imo

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah I'm surprised too. It just goes to show how much people hate having to push flasks :( I hope GGG adds some kind of automation

[@collapsiblechair9112]

if something is truly strong, or overpowered people will put up with button pressing, if someone like mathil said tinctures are busted everyone would play warden. All these naysayers will try tinctures if this is the case.

[@Hasibo95]

@@collapsiblechair9112 I think it wil actually reward people that wanna use them, and if you dont: You still have all of warden to use

[@mrturtle3531]

but this means with 2 tincutes you have to press 2 buttons about every 7 seconds to have perma tinctures. that makes any 1 button build a 3 button build

[@Ceen328]

Do we have any confirmation that mana burn works this way, and not seperate per tincture?

[@jimbe4mxl410]

Need to take passives on the tree, need 2 Ascendancy nodes, need to babysit them and manually use them, it consumes mana, and they take 2 flasks away from you - they would need to be completely busted in order for me to consider this tedium.

[@apostleofd119]

I miss the part when we need to fasten the mana burn. With 2 tins, we still get 12 mana burn stacks for free right? And then 6 second of free effect from warden asc, and then it keep looping. Or did I miss something?

[@Lolcohol]

I only said it 45 times, I should've said it 50 damn it

[@apostleofd119]

What I got from the mastery : the first 6 mana burn applied have no effect. If it is 1 tinc the 6 mana burn would be 1,2,3,4,5,6. But with 2 tincs it would be 2,4,6,8,10,12 ? I'm sorry if you already explain this as well, I watch the video in Mute at work and only relied on auto CC by YT. Lol

[@Lolcohol]

Oh. I'm sorry I thought your comment was joking that I was saying it too much but you genuinely didn't understand, so my reply was a joke because I thought you were joking too! Let me explain quickly: We dont get 12 mana burn stacks for free, but when we REACH 12 mana burn stacks, the tincture turns off, but then Enduring Suffusion gives us 6 seconds of free tinctures. So if we can "rush" to 12 stacks as quickly as possible, we spend less time in the period of 7-11 stacks of manaburn where we are losing mana. For example, with this setup, we're only burning mana for about 2.4 seconds out of the entire uptime of the tincture being around 10 seconds. Does that help? :)

[@cimerea]

If my math is right, with two tinctures at 0,5s mana burn rate and all those passives taken, there's a chance you never get a tick of mana burn, or you only get one for 12%. You get 2 stacks per 0,5s, first 6 are "free", 0,5s to get you to 8 stacks where mana burn starts to take effect which should take 1s to go through, next 0,5s you're at 10 stacks and next 0,5s gets you to where mana burn should take effect but it's also at 12 stacks. So now it's up to mechanics whether it counts as removed or not. Either way, mana loss should be marginal.

[@KeyenFureur]

It's a degen, you are not losing mana every second, you are losing mana every frame which amount to X% every second.

[@WaffleStein]

This relies on the assumption that all manaburn stacks are equal and not tincture specific

[@wesleysouzaclemente3173]

With the New scaling in Melee gems, leveling then to 21+ wouldn't be op?

[@rammune7260]

I would go for Nature's Concoction below Ranger start instead of one of the other Tincture wheels, depending on pathing. Practised Reapplication seems a bit redundant as the CD lines up with the 6 seconds bonus duration from Warden already, but Colloidal Mixture is on the opposite side of the Ranger start. It costs another point, but does give 5% flask effect, 25% Tincture effect and 2 flask charges to 2-3 flasks depending on if you have 1 or 2 Tinctures equipped every second (If you are using a melee skill). It's more than what you get from Nature's Adrenaline with 5 flasks (5 charges per second) or The Traitor with 2 or 3 flasks missing/equipped (4.8 charges per second) IF you have 2 Tinctures equipped, as it results in 6 charges per second in theory.

[@KeyenFureur]

The PoB I gave does have Nature's concotion. As for Practised Reapplication, it's useless if you use only 6s CD tinctures, but nearly mandatory if you have 8s CD tinctures.

[@rammune7260]

@@KeyenFureur Didn't look at your post, sorry! Apparently i missed that Nature's Concoction was skilled in the tree, as it was only shown for a split second in the start of the video. Diden't know there was tinctures with more than 6 seconds! Absolutely agree with you!

[@joshsteiner5736]

How are you seeing the new tree? I've looked last night and nothing changes on pob. I've been wanting to make my character before league start but Its not updates yet.

[@Lolcohol]

Check for updates! The new version dropped 36 hours ago at least

[@nikonaumenko7041]

If Tinctures still counting as empty flask slot than it's possible, with that timless jewel, to go permanent flask uptime too. Or no?

[@xanthopoe]

The Nature's' Concoction passive for Tinctures already grants 2 flask charges per second on hit with a weapon to adjacent flasks, which is equivalent to Pathfinder *and* Tides of Time's flask gain combined. (6 charges every 3 seconds). This passive is already taken in this specific tree so it's just free perma flask sustain on all your other flasks (as long as you're hitting).

[@IQfemtio2]

TLDR: Tinctures waste mana BUT with 6x passives points + 2 in ascendancy you have unlimited tinctures uptime. This is too TLDR and overly complicated for something very easy to understand. Btw later in leveling just solve the mana burn issue by adding 1 passive "Leech 2 mana per enemy hit" and hit enemies. Or a cinderswallow or anything giving a bit of mana back.

[@thisjustin77]

this is dope tech. alos Im convinced warden was also inspired by witcher. tinctures being their concoctions

[@manueltobar8646]

6% mana burn is a lot, if you really think about it. You need a lot of unreserved mana in order to sustain that.

[@manueltobar8646]

@@adventures12345-l I understand that 6% will only take away mana for a short time. But even a 1 sec gap is a lot if it's 6%. Let's keep in mind that most builds exceed 1000 mana.

[@hogmuncher]

its not that bad on a mana leech char tho you get so much recovery all the time from leech

[@IcaroOito]

You can get the timeless keystone that converts 80% of you mana into armour (that would leave you with 100~130 total max. mana) and get your mana cost as close to 0 as possible (so you can use the gems) or pop replica sorrow of the divine to get eldrich battery (since you have 100% uptime in 3 flasks with 2 tinctures)+ghost reaver (that would fix all your mana issues). The downside would be losing life leech. But then, you can get life on hit+vitality. Or some other source of recovery, as life regen on gear, or the ones from uniques. Or get clarity on with a amulet with mana regen implicit. That would fix it too. Maybe mana leech with instant leech can fix it too. But this last one... only playing to check

[@KeyenFureur]

Read the post, the actual cost is around 26 mana every 10s for 670 max mana (over 1.5s, so it's not like you even need 26 additional unreserved mana). It's not a lot, no matter how you cut it

[@StellarisVT]

did you even watch the video

[@Krebsiboy1]

why go through all this trouble when damage scaling is the easiest part about poe??

[@cappriceargo4355]

It hardly feels they intended to make it this way for 99% tincture uptime and if the nerf wind blows even slightly this whole tincture castle will fall apart. I still think they are in a bad spot and need a redesign

[@turbanheadless]

The biggest upside of tinctures is the justification of not needing a mageblood 😅

[@brocstrecker4134]

Definitely see the power... but no thanks. I dont even like hitting flasks lol. Plus having to spec further into them.. just not for me, even if they do end up being busted. I was a Warden in affliction league, so no matter how you spin it, these tinctures just seem worse than their original iteration, besides being able to craft them - thats cool! The unique tinctures remain to be seen, so maybe that will change my mind..? But I doubt it 😅. But The non-tincture part about Warden seems great to me!

[@TheFearfulDarkness]

u can also just take bloodsoaked blade, skip using 2 tinctures and do the same tech, but never worry about the mana cuz the mana burn goes on your hp instead, but u are alrdy leeching like mad anyways so wont matter

[@StrueSlies]

Nice, GGG wouldn't have put tinctures back out if they were going to suck as hard as everyone were saying. I just hate it when they put something out that they know won't be great until next league from whatever mechanic they introduce.

[@clintongriffin2077]

Does blood magic (key) break the tincture? Or Invalidate the mana burn entirely?

[@gantzplayer.n.m4410]

pretty sure blood magic makes you have 0 mana all the time so the tincture just couldn't activate at all

[@blackomega34]

There's a keystone that changes mana burn to life burn.

[@Gardenlessbirb]

These seem so painful to use. The frequency that I would forget to use my divine blessing is far too high for me to think I’ll ever make good use of the current tincture implementation.

[@joaquimb4052]

Huge caveat though: I could be wrong here but I'm almost certain that when reaching the seventh stack it will immediately hit full force 7% of max mana burned instead of kindly starting at 1%. Description says you don't pay mana burn for the first 6 stacks, but they also do say you pay a percentage PER stack. I could be wrong but I think there's no reason it would give you such a generous discount. You'd have to be able to dish out at least 12% for the last stack if you want to avoid deactivation and hopefully still have some mana left if you want to keep attacking without interruption. TLDR you can reserve no more than 85-84% of your mana (at best). And even then it might get clunky if you have nothing to leech off of during the last ticks I have to be honest I am also sold on tinctures, but I'd probably go with the life burn keystone to avoid the clunk. Also not sure how I feel about sacrifing 2 extra points to be able to use it on bows. Very attractive for melee but I think I will pass when playing bows I think it may actually be better to get only once tincture in order to smooth out the cost over a longer period of time. Two Tinctures at 0.4 sec per ticks mean you'd have to pay 57% of your total mana/life in 1.2 secondes, pretty steep. (not accounting for the mandatory small passives that will stretch it out by default)

[@Lolcohol]

It has been confirmed by GGG that the 7th stack will burn 1% :)

[@joaquimb4052]

@@Lolcohol Oh shit ok that's it

[@abysmalblade]

I could have sworn GGG said in the reveal that Tinctures shared a cooldown Wouldn't running 2 to hit the 12 mean that you have spots of downtime?

[@Jabbe91]

The Experienced Herbalist ascendancy point specifically says you can have an aditional tinture active.

[@abysmalblade]

​@@Jabbe91 yes i know that

[@xXVintersorgXx]

This is cool but only matters for warden. If you want to use it on a different ascendancy none of this applies. This basically reminds me of foreboding mana flask spam on Scion mana stacker from a couple years ago

[@prosamis]

My idea with tinctures is that with kalandra coming back, we want NEGATIVE mana rings/amulet to significantly decrease how much mana mana burn is eating Then we add flat mana regen, such as with shavronne's revelation, + a bit of mana regen rate and suddenly you can easily sustain upwards of 80 stacks of mana burn. There's a lot you can play around here, like using legion gloves if you want the int for your build, or eating away your int travel points with tattoos if you're aiming for minimum mana This is surprisingly not that big of an investment if you're not willing to put alllll these tincture points on tree and it keeps uptime really high for non warden

[@PLSGuitar]

In the RAQ they specified that tinctures can have quality, which means 20% more effect! Tinctures might be wild

[@Lolcohol]

Keyenn shared this with me this morning and I was in disbelief. They are insane. In my build the one adds 89% more damage and its not even perfectly rolled 😂

[@burunkul]

do we need to press the button to reactivate tincture every time?

[@kiyoshiinoto]

Unless there is some mechanic that they haven't shown yet. Yes.

[@noiseisgold3n42]

yes, it's a major flaw.

[@cjkool9464]

I'm ready to see the unique tinctures. I was looking at warden for my second character and run voltaxic rift with the tinctures to see how well it works out.

[@davidgoodman4208]

the main virtue of Voltaxic Rift in affliction league was that you could poison without having to use a Poisonberry tincture. I'd think you'd use the Poisonberry Tincture with a Triple elemental Bow

[@cjkool9464]

@davidgoodman4208 to be honest, it's been several years since I last played. I've just always admired the weapon and wanted to give it a try to see how well I can go with making my own build for once. It also depends on what all weapon enchants come with the town as well. I'm always open to opinions and I'll keep that in mind as well.

[@davidgoodman4208]

@@cjkool9464 Voltaxic Rift is fun and it got a big buff a few leagues back. It now converts all your lightning damage to chaos. You could do for raw chaos damage anyway, but in last league i used it for poison and it was very good. Especially if you hit a good roll and get a good corrupted implict. You can do with lightning skills or caustic arrow and probably lots of new options as league info comes out. I dont think people realize how good it can be.

[@revoktorment440]

"This tincture alone is 61% more damage". With the investment of 2 ascendency notables, 10 ish passive skills, mana burn and having to manually reapply the tincture(s) ever x seconds...

[@KeyenFureur]

Aspect of carnage is 40% more damage, reduces your EHP by 10%, also costs 2 ascendancy points and is 33% less effective than this one tincture. Do you also think aspect of carnage is trash tier?

[@pilot7350]

Didnt watch all video but are tinctures good or bad or just not worth it now?

[@Lolcohol]

Yes

[@TheCosmicAstro-]

Do we know if skitterbots will be able to apply up to the 50 shocks with warden? I have a build idea but it relies on skitterbots being able to do this.

[@wygiwyg]

Pretty sure they would need to move in and out of range repeatedly to apply more than one shock if at all

[@TheCosmicAstro-]

@@wygiwyg thats disappointing, GG the ascendancy for me. Raider was better

[@zerohero17799]

I'm a total noob in PoE but isn't it the same either way? You'll always burn lets say 10 Mana per "burn" Why is it better now to burn 6*10=60 mana in 6 sec (if burn rate = 0.5sec) and then get the free 6 sec, instead of just burning 6*10=60 mana in 12 or 24 sec (if burn rate = 1 or 2 sec). It is ultimatly the same mana burned and you just activate the tinctures more often. Is there any bonus to activating the tinctures more often? Or am i missing something completly? (Honest question as i'm trying to understand it a little)

[@KeyenFureur]

It's a manaburn per second, not in general. Keeping it on 3sec is 4x less mana consumed than keeping it on 12s.

[@oneof13forestpeople97]

I love warden, and that they brought tincs back. I will be running a warden on my second char. Bonezone first.

[@thetigle6288]

Out of topic, is venom gyre build be good with all this new changes and can we get a build guide about it?

[@chrisarets2231]

I'm still wondering why venom gyre didn't get any buffs

[@doomzx8284]

@@chrisarets2231 I think because it's not a melee, I didn't see probably any Ranged skills getting flat out buff on the gem?

[@chrisarets2231]

@@doomzx8284 I get what you mean but for me VG is kinda in the middle because it's ranged on one hand but you need to whirling blades on the other

[@doomzx8284]

@@chrisarets2231 It's not a melee skill, I'm not arguing how it plays :D Just stating it's classified as ranged and I think that is the reason ;/

[@HaseooPoE]

can you share the name of the absolute based music that is playing in the background? :)

[@chilledSounds]

wish it could be automated really, i accept that they want it to be meaningful, but atleast give a forgetful person the chance to automate the tinctures :p

[@kitsune_UwU]

@@chilledSounds my guess is, we'll be able to use baubles etc, same as flasks but they will have their own used when ready or reduced mana burn mods but increased cd. Something like that.

[@julian9378]

Just for my information, we require to go to 12 stack ASAP? This point wasnt completely clear to me. I guess it was repeated enough in the video...😂

[@Lolcohol]

Dude when I watched back I was like "Omg I get it stop saying 12 stacks" 🤣

[@julian9378]

@@Lolcohol keep up the good work, Cheers

[@Eqnotalent]

What about tinctures not on the warden? I see most melee builds are using 1 tincture.

[@sirhcsuiris]

I guess just like literally everything else in the game: If it works for your build, yes. If it doesn't, then no.

[@tomikimpossible]

omg, your explanation skills are so perfect! Thank you!

[@Lolcohol]

Thank you, I appreciate that! I repeated myself so much in this but I really wanted to hammer the point home to make sure the rather complex concept came through, so it means a lot that you said that :)

[@regal-27]

Well, I may be swapping to double tinctures after this.

[@alvadagansta]

Base duration of 8s with 25% CDR = 6.4 seconds, not 6 seconds

[@zypherdoesstuffonline5712]

If you have 2 tinctures u get 12 stacks for free (with mastery no effect of mana burn)

[@onur6396]

Even if you have permanent flask uptime with this, you wasted 4 ascendancy and at least 12-15 passive points, and a flask slot. Definitely not worth it.

[@xXcorpitoXx]

4 acendency pts and like 10 passives to make tinctures not as good as they were in affliction.

[@arthurrosa9403]

13:30 "Some people won't like having to pay atention to their uptime" Actually no one will. If we don't get a way in game to automate them the only people using those will be using macros.

[@gaborfabian3967]

I was considering tinctures already on my pathfinder, wanna steal the sustain node from warden, beacuse theres some insane synergy between flasks and tinctures on the skill tree, they even share a couple of wheels.

[@gaborfabian3967]

Wanna add that pathfinder can use always on life flask and blood soaked blade to easily negate mana burn as well.

[@guitaraholic]

I am super excited to have 2 tinctures for bossing for crit & ele dmg or one of the unknown uniques maybe? Their power is really awesome

[@leonelidas89]

For me it's 80% more DMG with pendulum uptime, no compromise on tree versus tincture with need of investment... Thinking about it. Depends on mods. 2 tinctures is not on the menu, need barkskin.

[@murilomm192]

Yeah, i`m thinking in starting all in on tinktures, and if they are mediocre i`ll just drop then and go full blast elemental hit. i`ll be strarting with frostblades either way

[@Veslemøy0]

I'm not completely sold on how the tincture mastery (first 6 manaburn free) work. Imho the seventh stack starts from 7% manaburn and not from the first.

[@Lolcohol]

It has been confirmed by GGG that the 7th stack will burn 1% mana, not 7% with that Mastery :)

[@Veslemøy0]

@@Lolcohol really? Source?

[@method9312211]

8:24 Mana burn icon draw looks SUS .. NGL

[@Lolcohol]

Lol I didnt even think about that. Smurftastic

[@elvispudliszki]

I just see "You MUST hit that facking tincture EVERY 6 sec". And thats bad.

[@flare32]

If I can't automate it with an enchant, there is no way I'm going back to a piano build

[@collapsiblechair9112]

two button presses every twelve seconds isn't exactly a piano build

[@pt9373]

@@collapsiblechair9112 more like 8 seconds