TMAF 2024 - Manoeuvre Warfare: A Self-Inflicted Lack Of Common Understanding

[@gbabayan]

Good talk if a bit meandering. What’s clear to me is that maneuvering is superior but it can only be applied in the context of enemy weakness. The weakness can be total (if the enemy is overall inferior almost in every domain) or there is a specific weakness in one area (in the most general sense) that can be exploited. For example a particular sector of the frontline can be weak or the enemy can be weak technologically, or w.r.t manpower or it’s inferior in air power and air defense. However, if there is relative parity then attrition is the most obvious way to enable maneuver. Attrition here means not just attrition of manpower and weapons, but also of industrial capacity, economic output and morale. Also while attrition can enable maneuver, maneuver can become attrition as the maneuvering force is depleted through its operations and power parity is created before a strategic victory is achieved.

[@MichaelA-ru4gc]

yes agree but part of his discussion of context and historical periods is that the initial post cold war concept of maneuver was based upon fighting non-peer opponents who could only offer a limited amount of resistance in terms of firepower and weapons systems. Of course a near peer or peer opponent could be weakened through attrition but the context of an expeditionary type of war where we go in thinking about maneuver from the start with an aim of winning a short conflict - that context is likely over for now

[@robertaurens5665]

Stupid question, which common language would NATO employ should it come to a shooting match? Answers on the back of a postage stmp please.

[@martinsalva4593]

Well stated and worth saying

[@TheJamesthe13]

Well said.

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

Western tanks are fast on reverse gear,but t-72's,t-what 80's ? have absolutely poor reverse speed. These differencies due to they both(western &eastern) models are cold war era design ?

[@_Igor_Popkov]

Tanks do not have a rear-view mirror, they move backwards only with the help of a traffic controller from the outside. And in battle, infantry usually runs behind the tank, and a sharp maneuver backwards will end with mincemeat from your own soldiers. And if one of the infantry survives, he himself will open your tank to explain to you that you are wrong. And we saw how Ukrainian BMPs retreated in battle and how it ended: in one case, it crushed its infantry, in another case, it rolled over. Let's not forget that tanks rarely fight on parquet. In addition, a low reverse gear gives an advantage: if the tank does not have enough power, it can go in reverse. During tests in India, the T-90 was tasked with climbing a hill that was too steep for it - the task was solved by reversing.

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

@_Igor_Popkov i ment the philosophy of doktrines

[@Silentheaven89]

​@@_Igor_PopkovI've seen just as many Soviet made machines run over infantry as western ones. With how this war is being fought you don't see infantry behind MBTs the only time people have gotten ran over was during dismounts when the ifv was targeted from the position the dismounted soldiers were tasked with taking control of. The ifv crew controlling the ifv panic and run over dismounted troops.

[@Silentheaven89]

​@@_Igor_Popkovwestern machines are better than Soviet tanks in this type of war. It's been proven by their survivability especially the Bradley, BMPs are no where near as good as the Bradley. The t-90 is quite good for what it's worth the fact that the extra ammo is separated from the crew changes everything. All of the tanks we see getting obliterated in one shot are the older t series like t80, t72 and t64 because the crew stores extra ammo in the crew compartment which causes a chain reaction and detonates the ammo loaded inside of the carousel.

[@nemiw4429]

​​@@kalervolatoniittu2011and he explained it to u. USSR (Ukraine included by the way) tanks were designed and would have reached the France. Leopard as example was made for scoop and shoot.

[@robertaurens5665]

Guess what ius being demonstrted right now is that NATO is by proxy getting it's ass handed to it on a plate by Russia.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@radnfo]

If you like this talk check out AUSA Harding Paper 24-2

[@ice1032]

Let’s be real are mainland European nations prepared to take a million casualties?

[@Habib_Osman]

Depends, the western EU nations aren't but that can be changed quickly. The eastern EU nations are ready.

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

@@ice1032 if it is a matter of exist/ not exist then sure

[@joeblack1052]

War is attrition Maneuver is the result of Successful attrition There fixed it for you It only took one sentence I guess i out maneuvered the attrition of the speaker

[@Tigerdad03]

Following

[@radoviddrobnjak3692]

You talk sense, this is not how you make carer in nato, you should wear high heels, skirt and makeup and keep telling the emperor, that his new clothes are the best, a wonder. Follow my advice and you will make a great career.

[@ralfm7989]

Manoeuvre warfare beame largely obsolete with saturated drone warfare, which negates the element of surprise & force concentration - which in turn slows down the change of front lines, which in turn allows for enough time & motivation to build fortified positions, mine fields & trenches in depth, which in turn prevents mobile units from exploiting breaches. Ukraine's disastrous autumn counter-offensive is a case in point. Notable exceptions are longer periods of bad weather/fog & dense foliage which can hide larger force concentrations & provide an element of surprise (Kursk), but are likely to run out of steam quickly due to drone harassment & disruption of supply lines.

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

Drones are relatively new thus methods and systems have to be developed... but they will. Soon enough there will be effective countermeasures and then we're right back to square one. Also, the west would fight dramatically different than Russia and Ukraine. Its a totally different level of capability. I wouldn't expect it to go the same. Actually, expect whatever suits your narrative. But I told you...

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

@@ralfm7989 on ukr theatre that may be the case. RUS and UKR are the references for the rest of globe ?

[@johnweerasinghe4139]

Wow ... he said a Company is smaller than a Platoon @#$@%@%@%@. I am done !

[@RuneSeidleitr]

Yes, that's exactly the problem. NATO doctrine is empty, emotionally driven catchphrase soup. This comes largely from using American doctrine as it's base. The American military has never had a very clear doctrinal concept, mostly making muddled copies of other countries' doctrines, and this is inevitable, given the low level of education and training of American officers, and the complete lack of a proper general staff. If you are not educated well enough to understand the calculus and engineering involved, than you cannot conceptualise or write coherent doctrine. AirLand Battle itself is merely a shoddy copy of what Germany was doing in 1940, with some new technology, but less of the basic skills, especially in terms of the fieldcraft necessary to survive, and without the flexibility of Auftragstaktik, which is beyond the skill of the average American officer to practise. It has only degenerated further since then. Everyone else at NATO is then stuck laying their own concepts onto something that is a mess to begin with. And that is why you are doomed to fail against an army that does have an educated officer corps with a clear understanding of the calculus and a clear doctrinal conception, like Russia.

[@BernardTheMandeville]

And how is that doctrine working out for Russia so far, against a far smaller and outnumbered enemy?

[@jenHry-ng3pw]

​@@BernardTheMandeville2/3 comments here are Russian trolls, don't worry about this one. They will insist day is night if needed.

[@burnhamsghost8044]

Yeah, 40k casualties a month shows the shining example of the Russian officer corps.

[@RuneSeidleitr]

@@burnhamsghost8044 Yes, exactly, the at least 40k Ukrainian casualties/month do show that. Though Ukrainian losses may be as high as 60k/month. But we do know they are at least 42k/month from David Arakhamia's statement of 1 June 2022, where he reports that AFU dead are 200-500/day. With a 3 to 1 ratio of wounded to dead, because the AFU can't evacuate it's critically injured quickly, we do thusly get a minimum of 42k/month. Meanwhile, we can see from the BBC-funded Russian dissident group Mediazona, that compiles all data on Russian military deaths, that Russian dead run just under 100/day, though with a higher ratio of wounded, at 4 to 1, because they are able to evacuate and save the critically wounded, giving a total of @ 14.5k losses/month. So yes, quite a favourable ratio for Russia, it does indeed demonstrate my point.

[@skywillfindyou]

@@BernardTheMandeville Well, for most time of the war, Ukraine had BIGGER army then Russia. You with others are clueless how big country Ukraine really is, because the other side is even bigger Russia.

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

I'd think you coming from Belgium and the diverse universe of nationalities and cultures has to be a strenght if something ❤(for NATO)

[@Habib_Osman]

It's cool to be diverse, but not efficient obviously. Belgium is extremely hard to manage politically with half its population speaking 1 language and the other half another.

[@vytautasd]

This guy seems getting his salary for not knowing what he is doing. Complaining about not knowing what his purpose and what doctrine to use... If there will be any real risk for NATO - this guy will still wabble about he does not know shit. Not the first time for Belgium...

[@joshuapaul2022]

Yeah, this war will end up with Ukraine's unconditional surrender. Zelenskyy said it himself. According to him only joining NATO or nukes can save his hide at this point. These are lunatic ramblings of a desperate dictator before the imminent collapse of the regime. Well, it's a quote from The Time article. Zelenskyy top advisers say about him: “He deludes himself, ” one of his closest aides tells me in frustration. “We’re out of options. We’re not winning. But try telling him that. It is immovable, verging on the messianic.” According to the Economist Zelenskyy is literally screaming at his generals at this point. One Austrian artist was in a similar state in 1945.

[@MultiMuditha]

Nice kremlin virtual reality you got going on there.

[@Br1cht]

Smart guy, he won´t have a good career in NATO.

[@littleones-yeahh]

what we need is to promote more homosexuals and women of color to high ranking positions in our army and navy and airforce

[@Milpile1]

We need more diversity...more

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

Meanwhile the Russian army institutionalized booty piratery where every new recruit takes it, no lube nothing 😂

[@circusOFprecision]

Are you trolling?

[@kalervolatoniittu2011]

@@circusOFprecision what do you think ?

[@leatherneckpreparedness9042]

Who squeezed this gasbag...?

[@sosiski1223]

This guy is describing a terrorist organisation like it is something normal and good. He was also active in an international act when kosovo was taken from Serbia illegally. Is it normal for us , the Western people and organisations to produce acts like this and remain unpunished and irresponsible?