TMM Watches Leffen's Tekken 7 Review

[@TheMainManSWE]

Leffen's Tekken 7 Review: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rIWlhKhrfMpsndE Leffen's KZbin: kzbin.info/door/-Shc38nmBnY5FiUrgvggSw He makes some good points. It was interesting to hear his thoughts even if it was after only 7 days.

[@Q_YWRM]

I think Sajam's video on different styles of learning explains why Tekken is hard for him and definitely is worth a watch. It really puts his mindset in perspective. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIOzZqOvZqufntU

[@gamrage]

I feel like you dismiss some of his criticisms because he's only been it for one week or because that's how 3D fighters are. I feel it only takes about a week or so to fall in love with a fighter. I'm new to Tekken 7 and I do have similar criticisms to his, but I'm different in the aspect that I'll keep playing. Every 2D fighter will have you blocking mid and low strings with a crouch block. Overheads are slower and riskier being guarded with a standing block. There are no low to high strings in 2D fighters.

[@EeleyeDD]

One thing I wanna point out to you, @TheMainManSWE is the criticism he has about running 2vs ff2 and 3,2 The thing is, for a brand new player, these so NOT look different enough to be able to easily differentiate especially in the heat of battle. There's no in game tutorial and no visual queues, you just eventually have to learn to try and duck things to figure it out. Most other games, it's easy to tell when something is overhead by animation alone, and there's general rules like 'if he's in the air you have to block high'. Not so here. Even Soul Calibur has different colors for horizontal and vertical moves, and as such it's easy to see just by looking whether you need to duck or to step to avoid something. For ppl that have been playing for a while, it's really easy to tell the difference, but for new players it's really hard, and not everyone will know how to use training mode, so you have to research in order to just be able to play and start to understand

[@EeleyeDD]

@Brian I'm talking for newbie perspective. Personally I have fun learning this shit

[@gamrage]

@Brian I've played DBFZ, Guilty Gear Xrd Rev2, Smash Melee and Ult, and SF5. My least favorite being SF5. I don't remember how I ranked in them. For the most part ranks didn't really reflect skill though. I just feel that the ratio of time spent learning the game vs the time spent playing and actually knowing what you're doing is different from other fighting games.

[@zanetausworthe9434]

im not sure why everyone is so upset about what leffen said, he said, "its a hard game with a lot of knowledge that takes a lot of hard work, its a cool game, but i dont derive enjoyment from labbing these things out, but i know some people do." doesnt sound all that radical to me...

[@Senumunu]

people arent nearly as upset as he makes them out to be. he snipes comments from twitch chat and then constructs narratives.

[@DeezNutzzzzzzzzzzz]

Zane Tausworthe same thing can be said about melee. No one really likes grinding at first, but as you progress and get better and learn. It really becomes enjoyable, then when you reach a certain peak you either plateau or break that barrier. It’s basically like any fighting game. Besides, me personally I don’t like fighting games if they do not present a challenge like tekken does. Probably why I like mvc2, 3s, usf4, Capcom vs snk 2, etc.

[@iroxz251]

I haven't watched the whole video yet, but from what im gathering hes complaining about it being too hard? then if its too hard and you refuse to lab, it is your own fault and your complaint should just be invalid? if you refuse to learn and just be stubborn that is your own fault, if you play to win instead of learn you'll get somewhere but not far. I dont know if im misunderstanding his situation or yours. 42:33

[@DeezNutzzzzzzzzzzz]

IRoxz ™ HES basically a whiny brat, he expects to be godlike at the game and understand it fully in and out within a week of the game

[@blueeyeswhitekarin3267]

Deez Nutz You’re basically dumb if you think he’s simply whining. He has valid point especially the fact that if you want to learn the game you NEED to use things like KZbin tekken barely gives you any info itself unlike every other fighter

[@Zwarhol]

1:10:29 Leffen: "You're gonna get hit by Yoshimitsu's everything..." TMM: "He's completely correct here"

[@Zwarhol]

Proud Yoshimitsu Main 😄💖

[@lornamurphy8747]

Yoshi mains unite!

[@Shvme]

Yoshi GanG

[@jayb67]

I mean, it is true. As a Yoshi Main, he's a bit too bizarre for your average joe/beginner/intermediate. Attacking him directly won't do you any good -- as he has too many evasive/agile moves with strange properties that'll hit you often. But yeah, YoshimitsuGang4life

[@Zwarhol]

@@jayb67 Oki is Godlike

[@RagingBigfat]

"If a move looks too good to be true, it's probably a high" Leroy would like to have a word...

[@Migixkem]

Fahkumram has Fahk'd leroy

[@killerkrok55]

Lmao b3

[@T1J]

I'm primiarly a smash player and honestly almost everything he said can be applied to smash. Smash has a fuckton of characters, and sure they're not very complex or hard to figure out. But if you're new, you're going to spend weeks getting rocked by gimmicks until you figure them out (and smash's terrible online is a huge barrier of entry for new players). Smash is nevertheless very complex, not because of the characters and movesets, but because of the dozens of systems of mechanics that the game runs on, that the game tells you nothing about, and which we only know about through exhaustive testing and examining game files. You could make similar complains about Smash, like "how is a new player supposed to know that holding a direction on the stick causes you to live longer when you get knocked off the stage?" "how is a new player supposed to know that characters have both weight and falling speed (which makes no sense), and how to determine what combination of those two things each character has, which affects how easy it is to combo and KO them?" etc. I just picked up Tekken last year, and I absolutely love it, its probably my favorite fighting game. I honestly don't think it's that inaccessible to new players. I don't expect to master the game any time soon, but I felt like I was able to feel competitive and start having fun pretty quickly like a couple of weeks. Sure I ran into gimmicks I didnt know how to deal with, but I just go into training mode and figure it out, or look it up, just like any other game (including smash). I think Leffen is projecting his frustration onto "newer players" when it's just his personal issue. He's world class in other games, so he knows what it feels like to be great at a game, and I guess he dislikes that he can't do it in Tekken very quickly. I think the average player is happy just to learn how to get some wins online or in their local tournaments. we're not all striving to win EVOS.

[@Rabbitforce97]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Its so frustrating that he can't grasp the idea of a game being hard, and it needs time for you to know the mechanics of the game. He is stuck with this "I am a pro fighting game player, and I hate this game because I'm not good at it" mindset and its so unfair.

[@bludika]

Edry Farkhan I think it speaks of arrogance, he sounds all annoyed just because he can't master in 1 week smh

[@SonataNoKami]

Edry Farkhan, did you watch the video?

[@kawaiiempoleon8721]

Not really Tekken is wildly harder and a lot more complex

[@therattleinthebook397]

Leffen doesn't like ultimate either. He's a melee player. That game has 9 characters that are used very often, more if you include luigi, ganon, yink and Doc, and they do not require that much knowledge to learn, it's still fundamentals.

[@Grapevin]

"LOL SMASH PLAYER THINKS REAL GAME IS HARD" "by the way guys i've been top level at more than smash" "LOL STROKING HIS EGO" is tekken twitch seriously even more toxic than smash twitch? i didnt think that was possible

[@revotor8142]

"Smash has no frame data" Lol, I don't think they play Smash.

[@fasagalag]

Stream monsters in any community is complete dog shit. Wish they just kept their mouth shut. They probably don't even play the game and think they have the right to shit on others.

[@dunzhen]

whatever, the ones hating on melee from the jump are harmless kids anyway, and some ignant ol' ass men

[@Buhnkiller]

its just mainmans trash chat

[@boitahaki]

muh toxic ppl!! They hurt my feelings

[@JamBadguy]

Main man swe should totally do a week review of melee.

[@ElDrHouse2010]

smash ladder Melee. dolphin emulator with the Melee Multimod Launcher: www.multimod.me/

[@VergilSFD]

Lazule Let's get it.

[@dinogee]

Yas pleeaassee!

[@ivaerz4977]

SMASH IS NOT A FIGHTING GAME

[@JamBadguy]

@@ivaerz4977 it is

[@JamBadguy]

I don't like how aggressive and unwilling TMM's chat were to listen to Leffen. Unlike TMM himself, who I felt was extremely respectful and understanding.

[@blueeyeswhitekarin3267]

JoanXXX Agreed

[@Drew_Boooo]

First day on the internet?

[@JamBadguy]

@@Drew_Boooo No, doesn't mean people can't be respectful.

[@Diegoshadow85]

@@JamBadguy on the internet it's precisely what it means lol. It's personal opinion and bias takes over rationality ALWAYS. Remember that on the internet kid.

[@Jonathan-cz4ky]

@@Diegoshadow85 Yeah no, just sounds like a bullshit excuse/justification to be a ass. You just end up looking like an idiot to the thousands of other rational people.

[@rizqiefajar]

TMM's understanding on Leffen's mindset is great. The chat on the other hand is biased as hell

[@Yautah]

I disagree, his mindset is flawed. He expect to be elite at a competitive game by himself just playing the game at home. That's not how this works. I can't pick melee a be elite at it even if i have six months of play. You need at least coaching or playing against great players for a while to catch up in a competitive game that has been out for years. It only seems logical.

[@rizqiefajar]

@@Yautah did you not listen to TMM's analogy? Leffen prefers games like chess where the pieces are not too many, and the basic rules are not too complicated. Yet, chess is full of depth. For leffen, tekken is like chess with thousands of pieces. It's too different from other fighting games he has played. He is a pro player, so he has developed a mindset where he needs to learn everything first, which is impossible in tekken. Sajam has talked about this in his channel as well

[@Bad4bizbrad]

Chat’s are always bias and toxic as hell

[@edlerkrieger8045]

Namcucks

[@aldxbaran]

@@rizqiefajar your post is basically re-stating what the person said. Leffen expects something that the game just can't deliver, meaning his mindset going into Tekken is flawed. You just described the way in which Leffen thinks and if anything, showed clearly that he IS going about this wrong.

[@theindomitablecell]

So the 50 minutes Leffen talked boil down to this: He enjoys the high level of fighting games that is 100% mind games and out manoeuvre your opponent because everyone knows all the moves and punishes etc. And thats what Tekken pro play is as well but to get there the way is much harder and longer then other fighting games and the game doesn’t help you either. He wants to get the part over with where you loose because you didn’t know a move because he hates that and finds it frustrating. Unfortunately for him Tekken is all about that for years until you slowly learn hundreds of moves. Tekken really just isn’t for Leffen since he disagrees with the very idea of the game. Wich is fine and very subjective but I would have liked him to make some more objective statements.

[@Dakotaidk]

And maybe learn some mixups of his own If you wanna pick up tekken and compete, even if the game did everything it could help noobs, you'd have to grind anyway

[@CBHPwns]

Yeah all i saw leffen do is showcase his general knowledge of fighters and talk high level tekken tactics and then set that tone to then express his salt in a sneaky way.

[@FireTrainer92]

Objective doesn't matter when you don't like the game

[@ghostaccountlmao]

There was no objective statement to be made. You both agree that the game is hard and you like that and he doesn't. You just want him to agree with you. He doesn't like it, who cares. Your criticism of his criticism amounts to nothing of value.

[@SkepticGamer]

A game that takes years to learn JUST because it has a lot of moves.. That's terrible game design. Imagine if you have two card games, but the other game has a thousand cards and the other one has like 60-100. Which one is more enjoyable to pick up? That's right. Having more moves doesn't make your game better.

[@davidnoreika5842]

why is everyone in the comments calling leffen mad? he never was mad, he tried the game and didn't enjoy it because the cheese frustrated him and he had no motivation to play any longer to lab and learn everything he needed. He enjoys high level play but it would take him a long time to get there, and the journey wouldn't be fun so he would rather just play something else. what's so difficult understand. So many elitist kids in the tekken community :( .

[@vanilea6435]

This basically. Some say he would scare beginners away with that review, but the tekken community is not making a better job in some comments here lmao

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

the only thing that scares beginners away from Tekken is Tekken lul

[@julioarcaiko]

KittyKat I don’t think he’s scaring anyone away. People that want to play Tekken will want to play Tekken. There’s no game like it.

[@evo683]

KittyKat I will say that as someone who has only played a bit of Tekken 3, I was kind of scared away. I’m reconsidering now after this video, though.

[@NewCrimson100]

@Takatama81 you could say that for any game, but I have not seen a truer statement than that

[@dal4268]

leffen's point about how defensive the tekken community is pretty valid

[@user-gv1ud2oq1w]

Legit, like read this comment section like goddamn lmao

[@Shaman5EUSK]

Ofc some of us feel defensive: we love the game, just like how smashers love smash and street fighter players love Street fighter. We all know our games problems too; we its just love our games, even with its imperfections

[@Intellyellthismyoldchannel]

@@Shaman5EUSK the issue is, people take it very personal when you point out one of those imperfections. Pointing out an issue of the game in a respectful way or simply not liking the game is not a personal attack.

[@LeeSoExcellent]

Like all fighting games.

[@PrimoHydra]

Every fgc does this. Why are people trying to act like its only Tekken.

[@TKBadMoon]

"The netcode is pretty good, what are you comparing it to" Games with actually good netcode. MK11, Skullgirls, Power Rangers, Fighting Herds, literally anything with rollback where playing someone from 4 states over on a hardline connection won't randomly disconnect or drop to 3 bars.

[@Carsu12]

Fight of Animals

[@Zippyd00da132]

Sweden's internet is superior to the states.

[@TKBadMoon]

@@Zippyd00da132 Sweden is about 30 times smaller than the US so that makes sense.

[@chrismdb5686]

He's used to Smash which has arguably worse netcode than the Bamco games, so naturally he'd think the netcode is good in comparison.

[@Zlatko815]

To be fair the netcode is alright but there are way better options. If you live in the US and only get people from far away with 3 bars of course you will think the netcode is trash.

[@sirwaffles5280]

Hope people realize he’s not just coming at this as a smash player. He’s had a lot of success in many traditional fighting games as well.

[@XOSKELENTON]

Genuinely asking which ones other than dbfz

[@TaskMasterMLG]

@@XOSKELENTON I know he played MvC 3

[@baazi2554]

XOSKELENTON in Leffens vid I believe he has done well in sfv and third impact. I forget the others tho.

[@sirwaffles5280]

XOSKELENTON kof and mvc3, seems like he wants to take a serious shot at the new Grandblue game as well

[@sirwaffles5280]

Brian idk it seems like his skills where transferring over pretty well to me. Haven’t seen someone get to genbu in a week before having no prior experience

[@dallyvfx3d]

Title: Leffens Tekken 7 Review My Brain: ........Lekken

[@robby6382]

Lekken 7 day trail

[@TheSummoner]

aries lenz - Teffen

[@2Syndras1Cup]

Lecken*

[@TheSummoner]

2 Syndras 1 Cup - Where does the “c” come from?

[@2Syndras1Cup]

@@TheSummoner German

[@kurobinz3101]

TL;DW Leffen: TEKKEN IS LITERALLY GOING ONLINE, LOSING TO A GIMMICK, LAB IT OUT, THEN DESTROY SAID GIMMICK, THEN LOSE TO ANOTHER GIMMICK AND REPEAT THIS FOR YEARS UNTIL YOU HAVE JUST ABOUT EVERY MAIN / POPULAR MOVE INGRAINED INTO YOUR HEAD. TMM: Thats the beauty of it, you call it a gimmick but in actuality its just a move like any other. Chat: ROOOOOOOOOOOFL LOOK AT POOPY HEAD SMELLLY SMASH BOI TRY TO KOREAN BACK DASH LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO (wait did he just say he got to genbu in a week *sweats in blue ranks*

[@9cookie2monster]

getting to Genbu aint hard tho just green ranks XD

[@ricebeans9779]

niggas got a point

[@MangoFishSocks]

@@9cookie2monster 99.9% of Twitch chat and the comments section would take 10 times the amount of time Leffen needed to get to green ranks. Eks dee.

[@9cookie2monster]

@@MangoFishSocks Is it rly that hard for people to get green ranks or get out green rank?..I've done all 3 of my fav characters (Armor King, Claudio, & Asuka)on PS4 and Xbox and they're all Fujin rank.It was a breez getting thru green cuz there fundamentals are straight up bad so I wud assume gimmik shit wud atleast work to get people thru green...I'm not saying im some sort of Tekken god or something of that nature just thought its not hard

[@misantrope6267]

@@9cookie2monster did it take you a week or less while being your first tekken game?

[@vavnation1524]

I love watching reviews of someone reviewing someone else's review of a game. It's so entertaining.

[@paulnoell39]

Andy Ade. Lmao I was waiting for this comment

[@mou5ecop]

Maybe leffen will review mainmans review of his review of the game

[@megabuster3940]

Review ception

[@evo683]

Especially when there is a dynamic where the person reviewing the review knows more and has more experience on it.

[@DJ-wo9nd]

Yeah this was really cool. I watched looneylili review to. Both are pretty good.

[@andyatty9412]

I unterstand leffens critisism. You learn the Basic mechanics in Street Fighter pretty much within a hour, while it took me almost a year to learn how to break every characters grabs. It can be pretty off-putting to spend 200 Hours in Tekken just to realise a King scrub can beat you easily with command Grabs, just because you never practiced against this specific character. Especially Hwoarang, Steve and Eddy are a nightmare to play against as new player because you can‘t tell where the next attack is coming from and not everyone enjoys practice mode just to learn a bunch of moves so you can at least block a few moves. I love tekken, but that‘s also the same problem i have with Tekken, that it takes so much time and research to learn the basic mechanics of every character to at least tell why you lost to a certain character.

[@RizzerixLP]

but this is the identity of tekken. I don't want tekken to be like smash or street fighter. it's difficult and they are many moves, but that's the charme of this game....

[@eldonearlcleofas8281]

@@RizzerixLP agreed.. tekken is not tekken if the game is easy to play..

[@chinogambino9375]

@@RizzerixLP But that makes it far more meta heavy than other fighters, its like mainman says here "I'd rather fight a character I know with one I don't than one I don't with one I main.". Tekken is far more about knowing what's coming than what you can do, in the very top level the tug of war between rush down and calm play usually ends in favor of the calm person betting on their nerves and knowledge over mix ups.

[@Kiropium]

That's the entire point of leffens video, this the title " Tekken is great, but not for everyone".

[@lobopumpchainsavage]

Only if you play competitively single player has went downhill but i just played on the hardest difficulty usually and with characters to get comfortable with moves you just dont stay in practice mode all day since alot of the stuff leffen talking bought can be brought down in a significant amount of time don't solve everything main thing is to get comfortable with your character in your moves but hes got some good points even soul calibur 6 tell you about properties so this could easily be fixec

[@hiebrantsify]

Leffie reminds me of sonicfox who tried to dabble in tekken 7 and after couple tournaments understood that the game needs time and you cant just jump in and become a champion...

[@kabukitheater9046]

sonicfox played tekken in tag 2. he played zafna. he's been longer in the game more than you thought.

[@megaV]

So u are saying sonicfox wins tournaments just by jumping in? Bruuuuuuuh

[@megaV]

@Psykhedelic bro it seems like he is talking shit about sonicfox :/

[@Krando_]

when did Sonicfox do that? not trying to defend him.

[@albert93231]

@@Krando_ I do remeber he making top 8 and everyone was surprised since he was MVC player lol I dont remember who he play against be I definitely saw the match you will have to look it up

[@jaywizz17]

his point is that he likes games where EVERYONE knows what EVERY character does and what EVERY option is because at that point its about who can do it better & who can do it more efficiently. in tekken you can lose SOLELY because you dont know & some people like that knowledge based gameplay whereas people like leffen would rather strategy >>>> knowledge

[@theDiReW0lf]

I'm a Tekken fan and that's my biggest gripe with the game. The move lists are way too bloated. And you can play the game for decades and STILL lose to gimmicks, which no one wants in a fighting game.

[@bando7593]

theDiReW0lf yeah I feel ya. That’s the exact reason I went back to ultra street fighter 4

[@jjrambles683]

@Simon Does really it's more of a patience problem

[@stephenthedude4383]

@@jjrambles683 or a lifespan problem

[@djmj1000]

That is definition of skill. Half of the time in tekken online you loose by a cheesy move / string or flow chart and not by skill. Then you learn this move and beat that opponent. I played a 4000 win bryan at Revered Ruler and he demoted me 2 times until i finally knew his very very strong and easy execution flow charts and wall okizeme. Since then he never won a series again and quickly quits when we meet again.

[@Nattybumco]

I'm of the mind that everything Leffen said was well within reason Edit: although it was redundant.

[@Jeed92]

maybe but he could have said all he said in 2 minutes. game is complex, hard to learn for new player. And all the stuff about how to learn it and that youve to google every shit is just his broken mindset and not true at all for many great tekken players. Hes just so full of himself that he doesnt realize his way isnt the only way to learn tekken. And that he thinks that he knows the best way to learn tekken (after playing it for 1 week) shows you how full of himself he is, and how disrespectful it is to people who play it for 10 years or more. I dont care if someone shits on tekken but this guy needs to be 100 times more humble to learn a new game or just dont play them at all. It was a pain in the ass to watch this and in heinsight I wish I didnt watch it at all.

[@Nattybumco]

@@Jeed92 I agree with that too

[@PanteraSD]

I learned how to play this game at arcades while getting laughed at by stoners cheesing me out all day. Felt pretty fucking awesome kicking their asses a year later, felt legit and I didnt have to take 20 dollars worth of quarters to the arcade anymore. Fighting games were a lot more enjoyable to me back then and we had less data on the game.

[@carolinagutierrez5988]

Sir, you are a badass. And it is my exact experience with the game.

[@chinogambino9375]

I was too poor as a kid to play long in the arcades but that small pond feeling was great. When you get too good at a fighting game though your friends don't want to play you. The low info days are never coming back though, too many smart poeple pull games apart now.

[@albertramirez1631]

I'm assuming you're an atp disciple lmao

[@Iknowrealtv]

I legit got beat for years in Tekken and It was so satisfying when I started to do my air combos my movement got better and I started to destroy the players that crushed me. Legit we even had money money matches where I was throwing money away. I took quite pride in breaking each and every one of them and watching a few of them quit the game.

[@PanteraSD]

@@albertramirez1631 you shouldn't go around assuming things. Makes you look ignorant.

[@Asyerith]

His arguement sums up to "There are a ton of moves and possibilities, and if you dont know them all its hard to play the core footsies, spacing, punish sort of game that he enjoys. Instead you dont know alot of shit and get cheesed by it, and he doesnt want to put in all the effort to get pass the cheese, and because of that he cant say its fun." I think the difference is the percieved volume/wall of knowledge you need to learn before getting into the core stuff that makes fighting games fun for him. So yeah, depending on what you want out of a fighting game I can see someone not liking it.

[@rekt_yer_nan_darding_5788]

Yeah I don’t think this guy realises who Leffen is and that he just want to speed run to top level play so he can make some cash and earn a living

[@rtiq270]

@@rekt_yer_nan_darding_5788 That's not it. Leffen isn't looking for a cash source, he's looking for a new fg experience. He probably earns more from streaming than he does tournaments nowadays, so it's not like he's looking to cash in on the scene. Technically, he could completely quit tournaments and just stream, and he'd probably be just fine. Saying he's only in it for the cash is completely wrong.

[@Jabodie]

@@rtiq270 Case in point Zero quitting tournaments completely to focus on streaming because he was in it for the money (by his own admission).

[@rtiq270]

@@Jabodie ZeRo was done competing. In his 50 something tournament streak, he made significantly less money than he would have streaming.

[@michaelmurray6577]

I know most of tekken 6's characters in full detail, all their punishes, juggles and frames. To this day I can still cite most of them and I loved learning all of those things.. I once spent a night just in practice, dabbling with each character, it must've been 10h and I had fun, even without an opponent. So yeah, gotta love it and I do, played the game since childhood and I can totally see Leffen's points. Tekken was too demaning for any friend I ever had.

[@Senumunu]

as a newcomer i was really surprised at how playing against the same character can feel so different depending on the player.

[@abirneji]

you'll never find 2 yoshi's that play alike and it's magical

[@joycehayes1454]

They're characters that have a variety of styles to play them, though some styles of play are better for the character with the tools they have. In other words there are pros & cons to a character playing a certain way compared to other characters.

[@syaredzaashrafi1101]

@@abirneji except leroy

[@francismendiola5057]

isn't it how it is when it comes to fighting games? well my best exp on fighting games would be battlerite and I felt what you just typed here.

[@GoldenCrow559]

@@francismendiola5057 is battlerite still alive?

[@oramaj8392]

Leffen: "so you have 45 characters to learn" chat:"NOBODY PLAYS ALL THE CHARACTERS IDIOT" did yall really forget that even if you dont play all the characters, you still have to fight against them.....

[@mosley3485]

They didn't forget, they're just hard stuck in green ranks and don't know anything about any characters other than the one they play.

[@shhs1227]

I'm very late to the party but don't forget that there literally are pro Tekken players that absolutely do play all the characters. it's kinda literally what knee is known for

[@DariusHammond]

T6 had a hardcopy strategy guide that you could buy with the game and I still have it today. It explained A LOT of the terminologies that we still use today like Chicken, what the star symbol means, the types of dashes, how to break throws, what okizeme means, etc. I do think new players would find this helpful and maybe the devs could have this available again in hardcopy format for T8 or maybe in a downloadable PDF.

[@dopekidrepublic]

That's a good idea actually

[@trey.b.17]

*C H I C K E N*

[@CephlonMayngrum]

In the future, they have this thing called the internet

[@MThead911]

I'm sorry, I just find myself agreeing with Leffen more and more. And no Main Man, I for not a second, will not listen to Harada saying no tutorial was better than having one. There should have been one, FROM LAUNCH.

[@dert159]

What he don't realize is that their is no info about learning every single detail in the game basically and it makes him frustrating that the only way he can learn that things is by playing more or pay a coach, at least that's what I feel about his video

[@furious_malic7808]

Behnam Merabiani agreed. Even frame data should’ve been there. But it’s whatever.

[@chrismdb5686]

Frame data should have been there, but I disagree about needing a tutorial. Practice mode is a complete encyclopedia of everything you need to know about the game, you only need know how to make use of it.

[@sanchezo95]

@@chrismdb5686 which is the point of a tutorial, it shows you how to use it. Also frame data was there, just google for a single sheet that displays it.

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

I'm sorry but we all know that even new players never click "tutorial" when it comes to games. They just *don't*. There should be one but it'd be nice if it wasn't 95% detrimental to the dev team to bother with it for the ten people who will use it instead of just looking a tutorial up online. And let's be real, since he's a Smash main, when has HIS main game ever had a tutorial?

[@stayt2dg]

The main thing to take away from Leffens review is that Tekken takes dedication...SERIOUS dedication if you wanna be good. That 'joke' about if u wanna get good at Tekken you gotta quit your job and break up with your GF to get really good is low key not a joke. It takes year's...some of us love fighting games (plural) but taking that much time to dedicate to just one game isn't that rewarding when you can play many other games and and pick up that have depth but don't require supreme levels of dedication. In short, I love Tekken...think it's the best pro tour and is the most complete fighting game ever made...but if you aren't SERIOUS about the game, it won't be a fun experience. Leffen isn't to blame for this take cuz it's fact and a well known one that even TMM concedes to.

[@PrimoHydra]

If u wanna play competitively that is. Casually however, I think the game is fine.

[@jeremyfuller7730]

>Tekken player >GF Pick one

[@chinogambino9375]

@@PrimoHydra At a casual level though something like Street Fighter is a lot more engaging in the mind game, in Tekken that doesn't come into it until you know the strings and punishable frames of your opponent which can take months. Tekken is counter intuitive, its more like MOBAs in that knowledge can beat raw skill in games.

[@heyyoulemmetalktoya6893]

stayt2dg I still don’t understand what you mean by “if you’re not serious about the game, it won’t be a fun experience” if you’re not serious about the game why wouldn’t you be having anything but fun? Sorry if I took what you said too literal but if possible, could you maybe expand on that?

[@stayt2dg]

@@heyyoulemmetalktoya6893 Since Tekken is such a difficult and complex game, knowledge of the game is fairly important if you wanna have a 'gratifying' win. You can still have fun by just mashing buttons, learning combos, throwing cheese at you opponent, etc but at mid lvl all that shit is well known and will be routinely punished. Leffen made a point of emphasis that it takes a considerable amount of time to get to the nuance 'mind games' between opponents and that's what I mean by it'll take dedication. Most fighting games after about a month you'll fully understand and then the mind games can begin. Tekken is like an onion with infinite layers where you may come across a Panda have have no clue how to deal with the shit you're seeing and if you don't know you'll get blown up for 8-10 straight easy (and IDGAF who you are...losing 10 straight is never enjoyable...but in Tekken it'll happen lol). So by fun, I meant a sense of reward or accomplishment. Characters carry alotta players thru their ranks cuz the answers to their options (100-200+ moves) are vast. So if you're definition of fun is just to haphazardly play the game or throw strings at ppl who don't know how to counter them then sure...you can have that fun....but if you want to have fun and feel rewarded for playing the game 'properly' (punishment, spacing, movement, fundamentals etc...), then it'll take a considerable amount of time.... basically it's no fun to lose to strings or throws you have no idea how to tech that take 80% of your life and that is what the Tekken experience is like in the early stages of the game. Hopefully this seems clearer to you.

[@theaudiocrat]

The fact that he learned all that he did in a week (like where he rambles off some of Kazumi's frame data) is pretty incredible. Also his movement after one week of play is solid af

[@prince5922]

he's been playing fighting games all his life, if you start dbz you would get as good in a week, it's nothing astonishing.

[@Guttsz]

GameChanger well dbz is a lot easier then most fighting games lol

[@famousfox6318]

grimuru easy game to learn but a hard game to master especially at a high intermediate level any person playing at beginning level will get the basic concept of how the game should be played there way too many things in dbfz that make the game a very hard game

[@amuro9624]

I feel like he can't enjoy it because he wants to go pro right away instead of enjoying the game and slowly learning matchups

[@arrow6044]

Dbfz at intermediate and advance level is hard . You have to be very fast and have absurd reflexes especially in defense. Most people consider it easy to refer to auto-combo, but these only work at very very low levels

[@waifoo4300]

He wasn’t really criticizing a lot of these things, just relaying his own experience to give reasons why he doesn’t enjoy it (as a new player)

[@nonnolaser122]

Wai Foo that was the point of the video though

[@AbstractReplayer]

Many of his statements sound in that regard too generalized though. I get the idea behind his main arguments, but at the same time they sound extremely blown out of proportion.

[@Rabbitforce97]

most of his arguments are straight up ridiculous. how do you expect to be good at smtg when you're only a week in.

[@Migixkem]

He nub

[@ShaunDelier]

@@Rabbitforce97 Exactly

[@somethingsomething9006]

I sympathize with wanting to get to that level of play where it's very player based, where it's more calculated and you can't be too risky, very fundamental. The most fun I've had in Tekken is against veteran friends who know what to punish optimally and perfectly blocking, the least fun is when some Kazuya online throws shit everywhere, it doesn't feel like a fulfilling match.

[@cosmopx1855]

I just see it as a test, "you should be able to handle this easily" and it will make your punishment better for when people do stupid shit even pros occasionally do some stuff like that expecting you to not being prepared at all

[@cosmopx1855]

So yeah your muscle memory will be better when a real enjoyable match comes and they occasionally do super unsafe stuff or unblockable or whatever

[@RePaperBag]

Most of what Leffen says here applies to me. I have 100 hours into the game, and haven't played it in about a year now, I just like following the game and watching pro games because of the entertainment it brings. But playing the game is nowhere near as fun to me, because of all the reasons Leffen mentioned. So imo what he's talking about is absolutely valid. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like, there aren't many games out there where you can play 100+ hours and still feel helpless. Say league of legends and csgo, those games also require over 100+ hours to properly understand it, but in those games you can just play and you'll get better. In fighting games you gotta LEARN and PRACTICE shit, like in school, it's WORK. But with most fighting games that is fine, because the amount of work that needs to be done is usually not that high. They are like a short story compared to Tekken that is a novel. And this is the most important point to this: Even if you've learned the mechanics of the average fighting game, doesn't mean you have become a good player. But now you can PLAY the game and improve in SKILL, just like any other multiplayer game. In tekken you don't get to PLAY the game after you've read that heavy novel.

[@mou5ecop]

I dont know man im not good player but i like it :)

[@daymi7300]

I played the story and offline content and moved on

[@remyslender]

The game changes depending on level you have to play on your opponents level with my character I can hit any move I want on a lesser skilled player but the game changes tempo you wanna win you have to play with opponent you will never know everything you learn to deal with what you peronally find hard to stop thats it

[@ASlopedRoof]

The secret is to study offense not defense, especially at low level, its actually fun to get better at offense. But most importantly, they way u learn to get up off the ground for example - once u learn ur ways of hitting opponents different ways of getting up, all of a sudden ur understanding what happens when people use it on u as well. Theres enough universal rules in tekken(even though they all have exceptions) that learning how your character operates gives u an idea of what most other characters are also doing.

[@iroxz251]

100 hours is NOTHING in a rank based game. It may be a lot in a campaign driven game, but it is nothing in league, dota, csgo or whatever. Also i have never been one to successfully learn anything from school, but how is it that i know almost every gimmick of every character in Tekken, i know almost all of the duck-able moves, what grabs might come at certain situations etc etc. How is it that i cant get gimmicked. It's because I bothered to learn. 100 hours is rookie numbers. "But with most fighting games that is fine, because the amount of work that needs to be done is usually not that high" if this is your mindset of fighting games you most likely just generally suck at most fighting games?

[@orb3796]

This twitch chat was my first introduction to the tekken community and yikes

[@abovehap7138]

I know right

[@lililing14]

You were introduced to people. Welcome to the world. Where their can be toxic people in every chat.

[@Thechosenone-t7j]

Smash players talking about other games communities with a moral highground. YIKES, my first introduction to the smash community was all the articles coming out months ago.

[@orb3796]

@@Thechosenone-t7j Agree

[@MrDxfusion]

Coming from the community that are famous for spiking controllers 🤣 ok mate whatever

[@yurexpi]

Chat is bias af The netcode is trash "It's better than MK11" ??????????? MK11 has the one of the best netcodes in fighting games Tekken uses delay based netcode

[@GORO911]

NRS games although trash imo but at least I know I will have decent online matches when I buy them. Be it MK or Injustice.

[@makeomengreatagain]

The fuck, I switched from mk11 to tekken. Mk11 doesn't have WiFi filter and 90% of matches are over 150 ping

[@WALT_LIVE]

Ok I’m sorry but I believe that the reasons that characters in smash appear in the first place is because their designs are so iconic an popular 1:22:54

[@tiger-rgn]

smash chara designs are great, its all guest characters from iconic franchises (but mostly nintendo, wich means lots of cute, sweet characters, wich is not typical of a fighting game so i understand mainman) but tekken's chara design is epic since tekken 2! there too many ICONIC characters if you cant see it you have shit in your eyes, its also very diverse

[@Dopameme]

I realized watching Leffen's video that he has the same gripes I have with the game. I disagree with a lot of what he said, but generally speaking, I always found it frustrating how much of the game's difficulty came from match up knowledge. Some of his examples are sketch, but he has a good point about having to research how to handle a lot of moves in the game. The problem is that there's a fuckton of moves, making every match feel like you're being given a test on whether or not you've memorized the counter to the sheer numbers of moves being thrown at you, especially against characters with a high numbers of moves, such as King and Lei. MainManSWE himself made a very similar point in a separate video where he argued that there are too many gimmicks in the game that demand matchup knowledge. I'd never say that the game isn't good because of this, but after a couple hundred hours, I determined that this really isn't for me.

[@cleangoblin2021]

The determining factor here for me is when you watch pros play, it's hype because theyre trimmed down to using the core mechanics and moveset. It's pure Tekken as it should be. Random bullshit wont work against them because theyre immune to it(but ofc some cases) It's a beautiful game when all thats left is whats needed. Only the casuals and lower ranks derives joy from owning people with shit they cant see

[@Migixkem]

*Sometimes being too powerful just makes you feel empty since you don't enjoy the process of learning anymore.* *~ Saitama*

[@ellewis817]

Nah this is crazy dickeating

[@Sk0rchy]

Leffen keeps saying "I personally don't like this / this is subjective" and people still shit on him for free

[@flamescorpio5850]

@Masta Killa Tekken can make you miserable, even tough other fighting games do that aswell.

[@Qcf2]

One reason is that Leffen's generalizing that its going to be hard for all Begginners, when it actually its isn't.

[@flamescorpio5850]

@Brian yeah mario kart makes me miserable all the time. Not all games are the same

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

The thing is he's already said this is all coming from a new player. He's making the point of "why buy a game if you don't even have fun with it until you've put hundreds of hours in". This has always been a massive reason why Tekken is such a niche game and yet I seem to be in the minority of fans who actually understand it rather than screech "JUST GIT GUD REEEEE" at anyone who says "yeah, if you're new, this is not a fun game". I don't have to go into training mode every time I see a mixup in Street Fighter, but you do in Tekken. He's just being real.

[@MrTepik]

Yeah, he should be charging them 😁

[@Squary94]

Gotta admit, I only watched 40 minutes from this video but from what I gathered TMM, you truly forgot what it's like to be a beginner. He has many good points. The game feels counter intuitive at times and deliberately messes with you, the moves often look similar and it is entirely possible to lose to worse players based on them doing strings you have no idea about. You have to learn tremendous amounts of stuff, tremendous amounts of strings, tremendous amounts of setups, gimmicks and what not. This goes way beyond the learning curve of simpler brawler games or games such as league of legends, counter strike, etc. In these games you have to learn things as well. League has 146 champs with 4 abilities and 1 passive. That's roughly 730 things you should memorise or keep in mind. That's like ~10 characters in tekken 7. It just does not compare. Tekken is a game with a impossibly high skill ceiling and the knowledge ceiling is insanely high too! That is contrary to a majority of other games that keep the learning curve low but the skill ceiling high. It frustrates him and you seem to have forgotten that it bothered you a lot in the past as well.

[@Poneglyph]

Leffen didn't say he couldn't tell the difference in animation between the two punches. He said he couldn't tell just from looking that the downward punch could be avoided by crouching. In fact, similar moves are usually used to hit crouching oponents in other games (like ryu's collarbone breaker). From the perspective of someone who doesn't play tekken, it indeed does NOT look like the punch aiming downward coming from above would be something you could avoid by crouching.

[@aizensosuke4237]

oh I remembered PewDiePie played Bob and he appeared to enjoy it, lol...

[@EmRei22]

looks like pewds had more fun than leffen lmao

[@ntodek]

pewdiepie will win next evo

[@neminemii6366]

I remember he spammed hell sweep. Was funny as hell.

[@arturocruz7590]

Thats because pewdiepie played it to have fun, the great way to approach a game

[@malizbabelz2310]

He practiced break grabs for like 20 mins and hes all set.

[@gruwelljoshua]

Tekken rewards patience! I think its the only game to make me learn how to control my temper not only in games but even my personal life. No other game like this one. ❤

[@spiritualopportunism4585]

It's true

[@StarShadow9009]

Dark souls has some of that too but i agree with you. Tekken definitely has the most of that aspect.

[@EternalSilverDragon]

Tekken is the only game I've ever had where I got frustrated and then broke the disc. It was Tekken 5 and the AI kept juggling me, so I took the disc out of the PS2 and frisbied it away about 10cm above the lounge floor. I thought it would touch down gracefully on the carpet and then I would pick it up and put it away, but its height never dropped and it traveled all the way into the next room and then shattered against a wall. My flatmates (who weren't home at the time) thought I got angry and broke it on purpose, but really I got angry and then broke it by accident. The lesson was learnt either way. Then I replaced it, so I now have two game cases and one disc. This was a long time ago.

[@ranges787]

The game is like a reality check only game that says straight up into your face YOU SUCK GET GOOD BOY there are people that are better than you and the game will let you know about it like no other

[@spiritualopportunism4585]

@@EternalSilverDragon I broke a disc because of TTT2... Not the TTT2 disc but a Naruto ultimate ninja storm bollocks disc.

[@NaJk93]

The major issue i think Leffen brings up with Tekken and Ultimate: Nearly all characters "uniqueness" also brings in cheese to the dinner table. Which makes learning the game "avoid the cheese" for the first hundreds of hours of gameplay. instead of neutral and specific match ups in there. Making characters Unique in a sense always has match up knowledge. But if there is too many "wtf is that" options. it's cheese.

[@BboySquidfoot]

"Do we want every game to be smash or street fighter?" Thank you.

[@SmurfedXD]

There fun but I can only take sfv a lil more serious than smash but tekken is on a different level to me I like it so much the depth got me into the game just bc it’s not so easy to pick up and all that

[@DIVAD291]

he wants to reach the point where the deciding factor isn't simply knowledge quickly. That is very very different from just wanting to become a pro or even a good player instantly.

[@Jeed92]

Did u even listen to what tmm said? There are PROS who have close to 0 knowledge about Tekken, who learned by intuition and by just playing. if he wasnt so full of himself he would have thought twice about how to learn tekken and that there might be other ways to learn it which are more fun and you could say even more efficiant early on. But instead he chose to think hes gonna become better than anyone else in few weeks by learning all the frames and by looking up google for matches midgame. Thats just ridiculous and its good that ppl shit on him for that. Stupidity should always be shit on, else people will follow stupid people and then we multiply stupidity.

[@DIVAD291]

@@Jeed92 " There are PROS who have close to 0 knowledge about Tekken, who learned by intuition and by just playing." What? If they learned a lot of stuff about the game that means they don't have 0 knowledge about the game. There are many ways to obtain knowledge and many different kinds of knowledge. Just because you learned by doing and have no idea of the frame data doesn't mean you have 0 knowledge. "if he wasnt so full of himself he would have thought twice about how to learn tekken and that there might be other ways to learn it which are more fun and you could say even more efficiant early on." There might be but that wouldn't fix the issue of so much knowledge being required for fights to have meaning would it? Also fun is subjective...some people are going to enjoy "solving" a game like that more than just playing around until they figure it out. What you think is fun/efficient might not be fun/efficient for everyone. "But instead he chose to think hes gonna become better than anyone else in few weeks" As I said he pretty clearly didn't think that...what he did seem to think is that he would get to the point where win and losses were a result of something deeper than just "Oh I didn't know X".

[@Jeed92]

@@DIVAD291 "There might be but that wouldn't fix the issue of so much knowledge being required for fights to have meaning would it? Also fun is subjective...some people are going to enjoy "solving" a game like that more than just playing around until they figure it out." No. Nothing has meaning by itself, you give it meaning or you dont. If your meaning is to fight people to learn then theres meaning in every single fight. If your meaning is to win every game even though you dnt know what the fuck youre doing then thats your meaning. But this guy thinks its required to read shit or learn the game for 5 years to have fun which is ridiculous and shows why he plays shit like smash. Smash can also be fun but its so repetetive that you go a little loco in your head after playing it more than 1 week.

[@LuminoRay]

Tekken 7 is probably my favorite fighting game at the moment, and also my first Tekken, but I don't really think that you can approach this game anything close like you do any other. I think the main difference comes in how you deal with incoming pressure. In every other fighting game, you can get away with not knowing the opponent's character at all. You can simply crouch guard, and in every other fighting game, this will take care of pretty much the entirety of the opponent's options, not to mention in most fighting games you can cancel moves into each others, so all the moves in the game kinda become a blur of a blockstring where everything is dealt with the same way, and you only have to deal with 2 or 3 overhead mixup options, or at the most side switches, which are reactable. The other thing with most other fighting games is that you generally have access to DP-type moves. This completely stops any offensive option the opponent might attempt. This leads to other kinds of mind games, such as baiting out DPs, wake up supers, meaties, oki grabs, etc. But ultimately, this means that Yomi (the interaction between options and what beats what) lies between categories of moves, rather than in individual moves. This is the main difference with Tekken, is the fact that dealing with pressure is done on a move-by-move basis, rather than a simplified DP beats Offense, Hit beats Grab, Grab beats Guard, Guard beats DP. Don't get me wrong, I quite enjoy this about Tekken, the fact that you can't just zone out when being pressured and then react to either an overhead or a grab, and have to be on a constant mindgame, but I think it's disingenious to say that Tekken is approached like every other fighting game out there, as Tekken doesn't really have universal options like DP, or push-blocking, which I believe are defensive crutches present in a lot of other fighting games.

[@alphazyy2651]

Not bad

[@youarerightbut4864]

Well put

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

Yeah, I think having to learn characters you don't even want to ever play is a big wall that says "fuck you" for beginners getting into the series. You won't even know if you like the series until you've put a hundred hours in, and that sucks.

[@Jabree]

Hey alright

[@johntaviuslong699]

Go tell that to virtua fighter

[@MrThespyman]

To be honest, I feel like Leffen reviewed the game too early. Seven days alongside the mindset he went in with led him to plateau extremely fast in terms of playing the game. It's a fair review, despite all the rather subjective opinions he expresses throughout the review. All in all, suffering through a good bit of the early game and complaining about stuff (at least to me) is pretty much the essence of Tekken just starting out, just like it is with every game. It all really just depends on what your priorities for the game are to be honest.

[@tearitup5864]

Azami but that’s mainly because many fighting games in the modern era CAN be fully understood in a week. It’s why many old heads aren’t fans of the new age fighting games because many of them lack depth. Tekken 7 is completely different from the new age games where it’s labeled the “hardest fighting game” for a reason. I’ll give you an example, if you’re playing SFV, and you see two top cammy’s go at it, you’ll see both players fight the same, it’ll just be a game of who has better reactions. But in tekken, no two players use the same character the same. If you see two high level Lars, for example, you’ll see that most likely they’ll play completely different

[@OzymandiasFGC]

Most game reviews are made within the first few days of play (Dark souls, Smash, etc.). Tekken 7 is not special enough in comparison to every other game out there, to warrant waiting months or years to review. One week for a video game review is a very generous amount of time.

[@shardofkingdoms9816]

Azami to be fair, some people from our community treated him like shit

[@tearitup5864]

Flamesnz you’re absolutely right, for a review that is. This isn’t a review, this is him being subjective (as he even said) and complaining about how hard the game is. A review talks about the game’s gameplay, mechanics, customization and content. Not “oh this game can’t teach you anything, you have to go to KZbin to master a character”. Please show an IGN, kotaku, GameStop, gamespot, etc review about tekken that talks about how hard the game is.

[@Marcusjnmc]

'.' what on earth gave you the impression that he plateau'd ? he was still pretty obviously on a sharp improvement curve but just saw it was going to take hella long for it to get him where he wanted to be & noped out

[@woogum10]

I was nodding along with TMM for the first, like, hour and then at some point the mockery of Leffen just got incredibly irritating and obviously dumb. Like I was legit flabbergasted when TMM implied that Mario has a bad character design and that more complex character designs are better than simple character designs. I honestly can't wrap my head around thinking that Mario has a bad character design. That's so ridiculous. And like, for example: "[Tekken] is one of the hardest games to pick up. Not because it's the hardest necessarily. Even if it was the hardest, that's not why it's hard." 1:35:20 It is confusingly worded, I'll give it that much. Just amend the end of the sentence to be "that's not why it's hard [to pick up]" and that's a perfectly legible argument. Even the hardest games of all-time may be accessible to a new player -- games with low skill floors but high skill ceilings.

[@isthou]

Like let's say... Melee? let's admit it, leffen could probably take a game on TMM on tekken in a few weeks or monthes, probably not a bo3/5, obviously, but it would take three years of crazy training(or more) for the opposite to happen . Not saying it's good or bad, Melee tech is tedious and borderline touches on insanity, you pretty much need frame perfect imputs for every fucking move and I would not put myself through that even if you paid me for it, (I mean I always try to improve, but at my pace xD) but still, the skill ceiling is absurd, and it's incredibly fun even for newer players. I do enjoy both games, but tekken is incredibly tedious to newer players to start "having fun", don't get me wrong, I've been playing it casually and I enjoy the game, the characters, and playing with friends is fun, but it can be frustrating to lose not because you reacted badly, but because you just didnt know a mix up (the reverse being true, i'm much more satisfied outplaying an opponent than just using moves he won't know) Those are the only two fighters I play, a bit of Ultimate too, so I won't venture into other comparisons I think this easyvshard to learn debate is dumb tbh, in the end, it's a versus game, you're not fighting against the game, you're trying to win against the human with the other controller. So, yeah, with you on the end of your argument, was not nodding along as much earlier tho, leffen can be whiny and I can't say I'm a fan of the guy, but I would not dismiss his arguments as TMM did

[@theDiReW0lf]

Yeah TMM said a lot of bullshit in this. Calling the bloated move lists the "beauty of Tekken," saying it's fun to beat gimmicks with gimmicks, saying it takes 15 years to master "like any other video game" etc. He thinks Leffen's approach to the game is unique to that of a pro player, but that's far from the truth.

[@vipulgupta3517]

Ok I'll say this as a character designer Mario has more basic design than tekken characters. If someone compared Kirby to Gigas's character design that's basically saying Kirby is just a sphere and Gigas has more complex forms , as the human anatomy is complex. Even Mokujin is complex than Kirby so you see from a design standpoint complex is more praiseworthy.

[@stpzo4178]

@@vipulgupta3517 yes but saying it's "bad design" just because it's simple is like saying if a character that took 1 year and had alot of changes to the base design and was very detailed in alot of different arena but at the end it looks like complete shit vs Mario super basic but lovable and of course u could say the Same for the other side but u get my point

[@theDiReW0lf]

@randy K15 More moves = more time studying frame data and labbing.

[@zachmac3824]

Cheesing in smash is easier to counter, and having played my fair share of fighters, tekken does have a shit ton of cheese. Love the game, but it's true

[@GarethXL]

and smash has shit defensive options, ultimate was one of the worst purchase I've made, as a party game with lots of people its fun and all but playing with tournament rules is boring AF should have just gotten DBFZ rather stay in block strings then have shit defensive option and ass slow gameplay

[@lvag741]

@@GarethXL I have something similar to say but with MK11 , I regret getting that crap at full price and probably the most noob friendly game I've ever seen.

[@FrankCapybara]

I don’t get why people keep saying Leffen is just whining he literally said he doesn’t like it but understands if others may wtf? And he has good reason to stand with that opinion why are y’all being so pissed when somebody doesn’t like what you like?

[@joeyl853]

Yea differing opinions these days are a no no. Beware of the outrage mob. Also most Tekken fans are very snobbish.

[@yibro3360]

WaterWhipin x fan of any game are generally going to get defensive for their game. A lot of criticisms that Leffen made can also be said with melee. If people are genuinely pissed because Leffen doesn’t love tekken, they’re babies, but that doesn’t mean that Leffen’s opinions for not liking Tekken make a whole lot of sense. It seems like he really wants to play high level tekken, while still not fully grasping the fundamentals. People just want more love for their fighting games, so if someone was spreading misinformation like how there’s poor netcode (seriously, I play tekken 7 on ps4 both local and online, there’s not much noticeable difference at all).

[@ViperDivinity]

We Tekken fans are very loyal to our games, we understand your anger but comparing Smash to Tekken is a joke to Tekken Community. Tekken is surrounded by highly competitive people and passion for it. We're not dumbasses, its just we love the game so much

[@FrankCapybara]

Divine Cutz Divine Cutz I don’t remember anyone here showing anger but ok bro. You also said that Tekken is surrounded by highly passionate and competitive people. Guess what? It’s the same for other fighting games, you’re no different from anyone else. Lastly, you said “it’s just that we love the game too much”; that’s not particularly true, because you can still love a game “so much” while also not being an asshole that rages every time someone has a different opinion. I don’t refer to you specifically so don’t be offended, I don’t know you at all so I can’t and haven’t criticized you.

[@lugit36]

33:17 So I wonder where leffen learned how to instant air short hop, tech offscreen launches toward the map, and pivot grab in smash atpCap. Calm down, I’m kidding Mostly

[@Brian-rx9sp]

That's what I didn't get about this comment either. I've never played Smash games at a competitive level, but I've seen it in action, especially Melee, and it's crazy. I imagine that it's no easier to learn all the advanced tech than in Tekken and just like with Tekken, the games straight up don't have any in-game explanation of the high level tech and strats. Now that's not to say both wouldn't stand to gain from having in-game guides and info on these things just for convenience sake (I've even advocated for such myself).

[@VergilSFD]

Lugit36 He has a passion for Melee and as a result was able to endure the grind. He doesn't have a passion for Tekken therefore the amount of roadblocks in the grind prevent him from overcoming.

[@lugit36]

Violent That’s true

[@angelsoflolz]

@@Brian-rx9sp isn't there a video showcasing like 30 frame-tight input moves in melee all pros know?

[@Brian-rx9sp]

@@angelsoflolz Probably. I know Fox in particular has absolutely hellish inputs, especially in Melee.

[@christianowens4104]

Something to keep in mind about Leff when he's talking about finding out about your local scene, he comes from Melee. A game where if you wanted to play it even just 2 years ago you pretty much had to go to locals, or play it with friends that also played it. Before Slippi which came out around the beginning of Covid and quarantines, that was how you played that game. Online was, and still is to an extent, considered illegitimate in terms of a representation of skill. I like Leffen, but when he talks about other games it's always with the bias of long time Melee player. But he's also talking to his audience of which there are a lot of Melee players. So they will likely feel similarly to him in certain ways.

[@MadCowDiseased]

Lol at TMM's chat during this, when most of them would lose to Leffen in Tekken after him playing just one week, and get demolished in any other fighting game. Easy to talk shit when in twitch chat.

[@Jeed92]

Why does that even matter? This isnt about who is a better Tekken player or who is more friendly. Its about "Is Tekken7 an enjoyable game to learn or not" and if some snowflakes dont like harsh enviroments they mb shouldnt play fighting games? Its not about who he is or who says what to who its only about what is being said. And what he says is a 1 hour repeat of the same point. Tekken is complex and has a looong learning curve. End of the story. He said nothing that was going beyond that and in addition to that he made it look like you have to learn tekken the way he learned it in order to become good at it, which is obviously wrong since there are professional tekken players who never even looked at the frames of attacks.

[@benjaminlennox4249]

@@Jeed92 he means the fact that alot of the chat were just writing him off as a smash player, even tho when he listed other accomplishments they said it was for ego lol

[@Jeed92]

@@benjaminlennox4249 I think it was for his ego as well, else he wouldnt have said it.

[@benjaminlennox4249]

@@Jeed92 erm no, it's for people who dont watch leffen who may only know him from smash, it works in conjunction with the title

[@Jeed92]

@@benjaminlennox4249 thats your opinion

[@YourTamedLion]

After watching leffen learn tekken 7 and learning about his accomplishments, I gotta say: Respect. He is very talented, smart and dedicated. It feels like a shame that he does not stick to tekken 7, he could be a tournament threat. We could use more EU Top global competitors.

[@SmurfedXD]

I don’t think he would be a threat honestly

[@robinsaputra1483]

lol no

[@JoshT4life]

I only got to dan 10 in 1 week he's at 19. Dude is skilled but as he says the matchup knowledge is what kills this game if you want reach the top 10 percent

[@railpwn1268]

A big point he's trying to make is that Tekken often puts you through trial by fire, but because there are so many moves, characters, stances, etc, that trial by fire gets very infuriating very fast.

[@mosley3485]

Yeah, I think the large roster and move lists are main issue for most new players. They get matched with a player, have to deal with them using 100 different strings and stances for a few matches and then immediately get thrown in with another character and another 100 flavours of BS. They might not see the first character again for a week and will have likely have forgotten everything they learned the first time around. While I appreciate TMM's point that a new player isn't expected to be able to recognise and react to the 5000 different moves that are in the game, if you aren't able to recognise and react to your opponents moves and don't know what options your opponent has available to them at any point in time - you aren't playing Tekken. Honestly, I think Tekken would benefit from having a significantly smaller roster.

[@carloshernandez3177]

​@mosley3485 you're looking at it wrong. YOU benefit from having played for a long time, it's one of the only legacy fighting games left, why would you expect to get in and know the whole rosters moveset so fast? Tekken is chess and other fighting games are checkers, that's why it's unique, the roster is fine.

[@mosley3485]

@@carloshernandez3177 I just don't agree. Knowledge checking and being knowledge checked are neither fun nor what the game is about. Characters have moves lists of 80-200 moves and the vast majority is reduced to combo filler if your opponent knows the answer. This isn't complexity, it's a pointless barrier to entry. If you want to play Tekken, you need to learn the answers to 50+ strings for 50+ characters, so you can force your opponent to play Tekken. Otherwise it's just a mindless spamfest.

[@carloshernandez3177]

@mosley3485 exactly, you said yourself you need to learn counter to 50+ strings so those strings have purpose, once you are at a high enough level and knowledge, those spammers kill themselves

[@mosley3485]

@@carloshernandez3177 What is their purpose? For you to learn them so you can make them disappear? IDK about you but I got bored of low parrying junkyard about 10 years ago. Half of the game is gimmicks that serve no purpose other than adding hundreds of hours of tedium to the learning process. It's like an MMO that required you to mindlessly grind for 200 hours before you can actually play the game.

[@lrdalucardart]

Ppl just hate Leffen in general cause he speaks his mind to much, there is a reason to why he was seen as a Villain in the Competitive scene, betrayed by his friends and banned from tournaments for a year at some point in life until he changed his attitude. He still complains a lot, but overall he gets results so ppl can't really shut him off completely(that's why he got the title of the "God Slayer"). But at least he did got some titles outside of smash too, like one of "The best Set in the World" at early game tournament for DBFZ against Go1, back in the day and keeps on carry the European FGC in his backs and show it to the world. Since we barely have anyone that takes the fights to the outside of Europe.

[@hido...]

Alucard that set against Go1 was legendary. To be able to bring Go1 to the final match is a feat itself.

[@jantran5349]

@@hido... well godslayer my ass, Go1 defeated Leffen hard and put down for good.

[@justaaron9057]

@@jantran5349 exactly what the guy said above, you just hate leffen

[@Marcusjnmc]

@@jantran5349 only reason leffen didn't keep going to dbfz events was a very important european qualifier got set up on the same day as a smash major, he was grinding the game still & won the event he attended before that but lost interest after missing out like that, & he got that title beating 5 veterans who no other player could take a tournament over at the time in smash.

[@rizhall]

I certainly respect both views, thanks for the video. The thing that makes me laugh is your chat talking shit about Leffen being a bad player overall, like they're not talking about a literal EVO winner :^)

[@erykbuczek4704]

When you play a game like for example league of legends, after a week of gameplay you can theoretically compete against anyone (on a good day) atleast for a short while, for example during the first 2 minutes of the lane phase. This is because the gameplay itself is simple, you have 4 buttons to press and a right mouse button to move, so despite the fact that there are 100+ characters you only need to know how to react to 4 moves from each character, and these moves all have a cooldown timer. Also, your own character only has 4 moves with a cooldown so its VEEEEERY easy to use. If you pick a character you never played before and youre matched up against another character that you dont know nothing about either, by just playing the game for like 20 minutes you can decipher both characters and thats it you know how play and its up to your skill mostly at this point (im ignoring itemizaion on purpose here). So listen to this right there, after 20 minutes of gameplay with chatacters you know nothing about you can actually start playing and enjoying the COMPETITION of the game, which is who is better at last hitting mobs, who has better reaction time, who can avoid skills better, who fires their skills more accurately etc.. . In tekken, this same stage of enjoying gameplay based on skill, reflexes etc, and NOT KNOWLEDGE, comes only after like a FUCKING YEAR OF PLAYING and after you go into high ranks. this is the basic premise leffen tries to get through, tekken is less like call of duty and more like eve online, some people enjoy that and some people not, but imo most people coming into fighting games often expect a fast game based on skill not knowledge (again by skill i mean reflexes, the mind games etc), and there is an UNBELIEVABLY high knowledge threshold you have to go through before you can really start playing the skill game in tekken without getting frustrated with cheese. in summary: people like leffen prefer easy to learn hard to master games, while tekken is a FUCKING PAIN IN THE ASS TOO HARD TO LEARN and probably once youre past the learning stage its average to master, since it is so knowledge based that youre top tier, or a "master" once you got all that knowledge in your head. Please dont kill me for this comment, i just wanted to explain the perspective since i see that a lot of tekken players have touble understanding why tekkens learning curve is problematicaly high.

[@sirm.a.r.s4640]

This was explained well tho

[@lukacapeta222]

Hahaha the best comment in TMM's chat is on 52:00 "Leffen should try to learn to play an instrument at a high level" Tekken feels more like trying to learn a musical system than a video game to me, and that/s what I like about it. And i think you can get pretty far having fun and not doing frame theory, and at some point picking it up slowly can actually help you because you'll have a lot of experience. Theory is good when you don't have to think about the fundamentals and in Tekken it feels to me that frames are not fundamental unless you actually wanna be the best IMO

[@Asyerith]

I dont think its that he wants to go pro quickly, he just wants to get into the core game rather than learn to deal with a whole bunch of cheese for a few months. All fighting games have cheese, but tekken is bloated, so its cheese is bloated, so it takes longer to get into the core. And that time isnt worth it for him.

[@MachJ84]

Your face progression in this video is honestly the best thing lmao. Very relatable TMM

[@MegaMikeZero]

1:11:00 THIS. Thank you TMM. It's like people think they have to be the best to have fun these days. That's really a faulty way of thinking because you can never truly be the best. You can have fun without being the "best"

[@GeneticallyEngineeredCatgirls]

Simple thing is - gamers who ve already spent all their youth mastering different games have already their stock of patience emptied out. In the age where the tons of games are constantly released, they do not simply have a 5+ years spare time to master only single one of them. If they cant get good at something fast, they d much rather just switch to something else. That is just the common sense. Chess, which you set as an example, has been stagnating for many years now, and it is exactly because of its complexity to the newcomers as well as for the fans/viewers, and this is coming from a competative chess player. In football or counter-strike, you only have to know a basic set of rules to enjoy and appreciate a pro match. In chess or tekken, you have to be a pro yourself to fully grasp the beauty of the high-execution.

[@GORO911]

Good analysis. Indeed people have less patience to learn and dedicate alot of time to master a certain game nowadays with the constant flooding of new games all the time. Even I a dedicated Tekken fan get frustrated after being stuck in Fujin\Raijin ranks for months and can't dedicate time to lab characters anymore, so I just switch to other games.

[@daymi7300]

what maks people good at chess

[@GeneticallyEngineeredCatgirls]

@@daymi7300 Modern chess has a 200 years of legacy, so the most decisive factors are knowledge and experience first and foremost. A person with intellectual disability who has studied game for years would completely outplay a 160 iq genius who only did so for a month.

[@VergilSFD]

Kirill Grinenko You're one of the most intelligent people in the section. Good work.

[@daymi7300]

@@GeneticallyEngineeredCatgirls I wonder if it's too late for me to pick up chess. I'm turning 19 next month I don't know if I should invest so much time into learning it

[@TalicZealot]

I think Leffen made a lot of sense with almost everything he said. SWE's responses of "well of course for a new player" are accurate, but also miss the perspective of a new player or someone coming from fighting games, where these things are much more intuitive or visually apparent, which is also objective.

[@mazymetric8267]

But he's playing it from the perspective of "how to get tournament good" He googles every matchup before the match like crazy. He's cramming way too much information into his head in a gery short span of time. Of course he is not gonna be enjoying the matches that he plays. He went fromb1st dan to Genbu in a fucking week. What more does he want? I literally didn't know what while standing was for like first 6 months of me playing tekken.

[@mazymetric8267]

@@icecream2313 "But the moment he played online ranked and called a kasumi doing 2 lows into 2 jabs and a tiger "crazy gimmics" I kinda feel like he exeggarates the problems a bit." Exactly! To him, everything is cheezy. Throws are cheezy. Simple jab strings are cheezy. Frame traps are cheezy. Basically, anything he can't deal with, which are most things, is cheezy. There's no substitute for experience in Tekken. You can have all the knowledge in the world but you need experience to be able to put that knowledge into practice.

[@LostTrigger]

i feel like leffen is talking to competitive fighting game players, people who play a game and might not be the best but want to be good, want to do well, they strive and push themselves, and after competing in one fighting game for 5 years i picked up mk11 and im immediately looking at frame data and set ups etc. from the perspective of a player who is more competitive inclined i think thats more who leffen was talking to (which he concluded that its to bloated for anyone who doesnt want to dedicate the next 4 months or so learning this)

[@doc8125]

This also makes sense, since that is his audience

[@doc8125]

Like in general, I would say that 80% of people who view leffen (even more so before he started playing ultimate) has attended a tournament

[@LostTrigger]

@@doc8125 yeah even if they arent as good as they think they are, they're making tier lists, talking about the meta and which characters are the best etc

[@doc8125]

@@LostTrigger dont even think they think they are that good necessarily, but they have an interest in the game as a competition, not only as a something they do for fun

[@limear]

kazumi 3,2 definitely doesn't look like a high tho

[@anibalmattiwos7613]

Yeah his point about some highs looking like mids are true. Remember when claudios f3 was a high, and they just changed the property to a mid while the animation remained the same...

[@gogetassj492]

Whenever I tell my friends “hey let’s play Tekken” they ask me how to play this game... I am legit like 1:10:57 just mash it... BEAT IT BEAT IT

[@MegaMikeZero]

I like the climbing a mountain example. Very Mishima. In the end Tekken players are mentally badass for being able to calculate, predict, and react to all the possible scenarios that can be thrown at them. Tekken IS tough. But we become better by overcoming it. C'mon guy I thought you liked anime lol. In Tekken it's possible to be a Heihachi in the FGC, which is awesome imo.

[@Underscore313]

24:17 I see what Leffen is saying that the animations look unclear sometimes on whether they're high/mid. For example, King's b4 (or b3, the one that wall bounces) looks mid because he kind crouches a little and delivers a kick into what looks like your chest, so you might come to the conclusion that it's a mid. But the game actually registers this as a high. This is not uncommon when analyzing different moves (dick jabs are mids, even though to the untrained they look like lows), and (this is the key thing here that I think he's saying) a lot of the times it isn't enough to visually check that a move your unfamiliar with is a low or mid, or mid or high, it's something you specifically have to lab out for 45 characters for all their low/mid/high mix-ups/gimmicks that are built into their target combo strings.

[@ArcherDigitalFinance]

Underscore313 this is exactly what frustrates me about the game. The animations are not always as they appear to be forcing you to lab out the character. Additionally, I believe the devs did this on purpose to make people spend more time on the game.

[@Anbird1218]

Main Man: "I don't know a lot about leffen or smash." also Main Man, 5 seconds later: *LEFFEN VS CHILLIN*

[@einsteigenbitte8960]

iconic game

[@lililing14]

That's not a contradiction. That's like me saying, I don't know much about beyonce(honestly can't be bothered to listen to her), but I know she has a song called single ladies. Just because you don't know much about something, doesn't mean you know absolutely nothing.

[@GazettiSF]

what if leffen and mainman went online together like excellent adventures?

[@YamadaUA93]

Maaaaan. I miss this type of content. RIP EAwG&MR

[@jadonplox]

33:40 tmm unable to understand leffens complaint is that the game doesnt reward mechanics, it rewards knowledge.

[@Cafetero_]

Why not both

[@flex20171]

Try using repetitive gimmicks against a top player and see how well that works out.

[@jadonplox]

@@flex20171 what does gimmicks have to do with learning 4k + diff moves

[@flex20171]

@@jadonplox Almost all novice players know how to block all the moves in this game, yet they will never be top or elite players. Way more is required to be good at Tekken than that.

[@jadonplox]

@@flex20171 "almost all novice players know how to block all the moves in the game"

[@jaywizz17]

his criticisms aren’t exclusive to tekken lmaoo this chat was getting touched by what he was saying thinking it only applies to tekken but it applies to quite a lot of games

[@-smileingbread-754]

I think what Harada-san said about tutorial and frame data is true. My brother, my dad, and my friends don’t care about tutorial or frame. Even though I told them how important the frame data is. They just want to play the game so we always jump to VS mode. Only I interest in frame data but I still lost to my brother’s Pual 70% of the times.

[@StormyOne1]

What makes Tekken, Tekken, is it's complexity

[@darklombax2580]

Tekken is a fighting game about experience and rewarding the player for being patient with it

[@GrogedUp]

And identifying the strengths of your chareter and optimizing your positing/damage output and defense

[@semantik95]

Guys this is a really goos review specifically from the perspective of a new player trying to get good in tekken. I quite enjoy the game myself, but perhaps many of you dont remember how frustrating it is to pick this game up compared to other fighters.

[@Krando_]

no, i started tekken seriously at 7's launch. (less than 20 hrs in 6 and tag2 combined) I didn't find it frustrating, i found it quite exhilarating as there was so much to learn and i seemed to be learning pretty fast.

[@VergilSFD]

Krando What else did you have to do in your life? (I apologize if the question is framed offensively.) Leffen plays multiple games simultaneously at tournament levels. He can't prioritize one game for so long if he isn't enjoying it.

[@famousfox6318]

Naa cause it all comes down to if you enjoy the game or not if you enjoy the game due to its wide variety of play and level off of a few weeks that’s all you buy if you enjoy it but don’t want to grind for it simply just leave it alone cause In tekken any friend that plays it intermediately will tell you that the grind is a serious thing

[@SkaugTV]

In melee you can kinda do a lot of the same things as high level players since your tools are pretty simple, but the way you chain them and How fluently you use movement makes you good.

[@NoctuaOlivae]

That’s kinda false tbh. That’s like saying Tekken’s tools are simple because anyone can do db1,b1, etc. Wavedashing in melee (shielding and pressing the control stick at a specific range of angles during the first few frames of jump startup) is used as often if not more often than KBD and it’s just as hard to learn how to do consistently. Anyone who just picks up a controller won’t be able to do that unless they put in a few months of practice.

[@SkaugTV]

@@NoctuaOlivae Isaac I would still say most of the tools are more simpe given that you have Five air moves. Four normal ground move, Four smashes, one dash attack and a grab. Doing an angle like Mango sometimes or landing a rest on a roll in can be done not that Long after picking up the game. Doing really big combos, using sdi and ledgedashing is really hard and advanced, but i'm saying there are more element from a high level match that apply to lower level gameplay

[@NoctuaOlivae]

KKSH 98 I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t see how knowing how to do the moves for a character gives a new player the same tools as an advanced player. I feel like the tools a character has rely more in how you apply the moves. Again you could say the same about tekken because any new player can go into the move-list and use all the moves for a character. But it’s understanding the situations to use those moves in that lets you play at an advanced level, and it’s the same in melee only understanding movement options and the freeform combo system kind of take the place of learning all the frame data for every one of a characters’ important moves.

[@NoctuaOlivae]

KKSH 98 I think if you asked a bystander to tell the difference between high and low level play for tekken and melee (well in that case the difference in movement for both would be a dead give away, but barring that) if anything the tekken gameplay would be harder to tell the difference in until you saw that the low level players can’t combo. In Tekken even if you’re a literal day one beginner there’s still constant action whereas new players in melee have a hard time not falling off the stage and SDing

[@nhall129]

Honestly, i think the reason he puts so much weight on not having tutorial/trials is because of the complexity problem he mentions with how new players struggle a ton. Most fighting games now have a tutorials. Look at UNIST which helps players understand more technical concepts and then asks them to try it. IN GAME. Tekken is easily one of the most complex and technical fighting games on the market and yet it lacks that feature. Thats seems like a fair critique.

[@sirm.a.r.s4640]

It's very fair, I played Tekken since 96 and I can easily say mk 11 tutorial was damn near perfect and shits on Tekken in that aspect. Tekken never held people hands and I feel it prides itself in that but I agree, I never say Tekken is easy to get into it. You can have fun offline tho if that's your goal.

[@TheAcesShow]

I honestly mostly know my five characters and just learn the opponent. I might get stomped round 1, have a close round 2 (win or lose) and from then on I know the moves my opponent uses. Just adapt and learn who you are playing against, I'm not trying to go pro, I just play to have fun so I don't worry about every character frame data and stuff

[@sssgaming612]

"it's not a game for everyone" - not the problem of tekken but most fighting games

[@yibro3360]

SSS Gaming It’s all fighting games, hell, all games in general.

[@DJ-wo9nd]

Lol true

[@ViperDivinity]

Tekken can be played by everyone cuz pick Katarina and spam 4444444. In SFV and other games, spamming doesnt work in most cases.

[@doncinati7644]

It’s the problem of fighting games but Tekken is the WORST offender (in my opinion, no attack plz)

[@Scias]

"the roster is a really wierd situation, leme just get back to the game I play where solid snake takes on pirhanna plant, pacman or the wii fit trainer"

[@dantecalabretta180]

sure but that's the whole basis of the game, it's supposed to be a crazy crossover and that does make it fun. That said, Tekken has a pretty cool roster obv

[@Scias]

Yeah I agree, I love smash, I just duno why he'd have that criticism about tekken's roster overall, even if I'd agree the bears are the weaker character designs. The rest are fairly grounded imo, except maybe the upcoming thai fighter lol he's a bit over the top

[@juhanakaarlehto7754]

As a smash player who picked up tekken a while ago, I tekken’s roster isn’t nearly as instantly identifiable as smash’s which is 2 times bigger as well. It’s an unfair comparison though since smash has characters from dozens of different franchises. I’d go as far as to say tekken’s roster is one of the blandest rosters of any fighting game I’ve played. It’s not bad but the bar is high. Just think about sf skull girls or guilty gear. All the characters and especially their move sets have much more personality

[@Scias]

@@juhanakaarlehto7754 I'd agree it's the most bland but depending on your taste it can also be described as the most grounded, so it's subjective I guess. I like to play tekken as a more serious competitive game and I love playing smash casually with friends because of how much more crazy and humerous it is

[@LostTrigger]

Not only did leffen put smash ultimate on the back burner, melee is his main game, he played ultimate off and on for a year and quit after he won a dream hack

[@oby8644]

God the chat is atrocious. Shitting on him at every turn and being ignorant. Frankly it was more akin to bullying than criticizing. Ironic how the most common insult was that he's a child, or that smash is a child's game yet they bandwagon together and throw insults like a group of kids on the playground. Disgusting behaviour

[@bradybimson9106]

The disconnect between SWE and Leffen here is the main disconnect between Tekken and other fighting games. SF has a lot of complexity, but the strings/punishes/ and options for each character are a fairly short list in comparison. This allows, as Leffen said, both players to actually play the game pretty early on. For a competitive player like Leffen, who plays a game in smash where everything is about how you and your opponent react to each other, of course not understanding whats going on on the screen for years is not going to be any fun. However, for SWE and many other long time Tekken players, that ability to know all the moves and the game sense and even just how to move in the game is a point of pride because it took so long to figure out and master. So attacking the complexity of the game is like attacking all that hard work and maybe it feels like Leffen is saying it isn't worth all that effort, but that is obviously specific to him. As a new player to the Tekken series, who enjoys being good at the game and not just messing around with the characters and the pretty colors, I understand the long journey I am on. But I think the game would be more welcoming to new players if veteran players were open to understanding the plight of new players being daunted by the extreme complexity rather than just saying "get good kid" or "you'll figure it out if you play". If that is the only strategy, then it will be impossible for any new players to catch up, which makes it hard for the game to continue to appeal to a growing player base. Which sucks for people like me that think the game looks cool and would really like to get into it. Most people that continue to play fighting games for a long time want to get good, and not just mess around with the game for 6 days and put it down. And Tekken is BY FAR the hardest fighting game to become competent at any decent competitive level where you know what is going on on screen. That is a fair criticism.

[@rodnie3903]

when i was new in tekken (T5) , i just lock in hwoarang and spam kicks left and right and enjoy seeing how frustrated my big bro is who has more experience in the game xD.. haha good ol days

[@SuperHperTube]

I picked up "Tekken 7" 2 months ago. Its my first tekken and I am pretty hooked. Since my first fighting game was Guilty gear I already went with a mindset of "I will need patience and time". Trying to enjoy it as much as possible and keep improving and learning something new every match. Being aware that winning isn't important but the improvement in every detail. I am Mighty Ruler with my main King and and with Leroy now. (But I think Leroy doesn't really count X) It has been a very enjoyable journey so far even though I still feel like a scrub quite often. I understand a lot of Leffens criticism but it's pretty obvious to me that he hasn't the right mindset to find this game enjoyable. For him it's directly about being good instead of becoming good. Because that latter is 90% of the game.

[@joejo6969]

Cool stuff mate, hope you stick with the game. I'm the opposite. I'm a Tekken guy for more than half of my life and two weeks ago I bought my first GG game (REV 2) hahaha

[@juhanakaarlehto7754]

I’m a smash player but seeing leffen talk about this is so funny to me because it’s so hypocritical sometimes. Melee has absolutely 0 tutorials. How are you supposed to learn shield dropping? You google it. What the hell is cc? Super unintuitive. Wave dashing is absolutely essential to melee movement and it is locked behind a execution barrier just like kbd. In smash you have different combos for every 20% or so. And different combos work at different percentages depending on weight class and hurt box size. Then you have di mixups. I can also see why he doesn’t like tekken. In smash you can pretty much memorize the entire roster’s move set in a week. And every character has the same amount of moves with same inputs. Because of this the game is almost instantly just about how the players use those few given moves, and less about learning that they even exist in the first place and how to block the mixups. In smash everything except grabs are blocked the same way. Basically, in smash the rarely comes a time when you don’t understand what to do.

[@kamariz3153]

You right.

[@AnnoyingLittlePerson]

What i think makes the difference is that smash was never really meant and marketed as a fighting game. Nintendo pushes it as a party game but the community is what has been developing a lot of these techniques like 10 years after release (talking spec. about melee) and modern melee is a lot about manipulating the engine to do what you want. That's an entirely different approach. Sure smash ultimate does go through a lot of them but you can't really compare melee to tekken in that sense when tekken is as new as it is and when a lot of the technique was implemented in previous instalments and with so little change between games. TMM even called it tekken 5.4 or something in the video. Tldr: an established fighting game should have tutorials, melee doesn't because it's not an established fighting game.

[@bigredog100]

@@AnnoyingLittlePerson It actually does have tutorials, just not tutorials teaching you everything else.

[@isthou]

while you're right in a way, tech heavy and knowledge heavy, while complementary in a lot of instances, are two very different approches to getting better at a game, and I'd choose tech heavy everytime, losing cause i don't know shit makes me angry, but failing a new PB on time attack cause I was not precise enough in a racing game or missing a tech in melee just makes me want to get better.

[@bigredog100]

@@isthou Yeah for sure. In many aspects, I would even consider Melee being easier to learn because it mostly is getting the tech down. Plus you don't have to worry about block strings or blocking high or low (although you can tilt the shield accordingly)

[@Bottles7]

I feel like his decision to try Tekken was very ego driven and when the game demonstrated to him that that he still had a lot to learn he became discouraged. He pretty much attempted to put the cart before the horse with his approach. For this reason I don't think he painted a picture of what a new player feels like learning Tekken as well as he intended to. He didn't really have fun and I think his ego and desire to, at the end of the journey be a high level player / have something to show for it got in the way of that fun. No disrespect though, I like Leffen a lot and to reach Genbu on Kazumi in one week is a testament to his skills. In a perfect world we'd be enjoying Leffen on the Tekken big stage and have this smash invader heel like character. That would have been a fun timeline. Cheers TMM

[@Jabodie]

Maybe ego came into it, but from his complaining about Ultimate it's clear he does not like the "learning all the moves/gimmicks" stage of the experience, and does not consider having a large knowledge of a cast to be execution of actual skill. This is really obvious when Leffen replies to people who defend Ultimate's matchup knowledge requirements as skill. With Ultimate he went through the memorization and came to the conclusion that the fundamental game kinda sucks. With T7 he saw that the initial phase that he dislikes (but is necessary) in any game was going to be long, where he would be checked for memorization rather than execution of core mechanics. It is consistent with his opinions on other games as well. It is not that he is not performing as well as he'd like, it's why he's not performing well. He losing to stuff simply because he didn't know it existed rather than simply being outplayed. And while that happens in any game, it's the longevity of that period that's somewhat unique to Tekken.

[@WalkingthroughNYC]

He has a point with learning how to not get hit by certain things. I literally had to Google how to not get hit by akumas super. A lot of these throws is hard to know what button you're supposed to press to break it.

[@aotohime9481]

Let me start this off by saying i'm not a regular player of Tekken, I played it casually a bit but I don't play now. But I do watch it a lot as I really love how the game actually is. And I can relate to Leffen a lot as someone who's played a lot of 2D fighting games and still play now. Btw I don't even watch Leffen or smash so it's an unbiased opinion as someone who's in a similar position. In most 2D fighting games there's not a lot of options. Let's say for defence, you block low all the time and react to the slower overhead. And also watch out for the grab. That's it for defence in 2D fighters. But with Tekken as it's 3D there's more options. But with those options come the difficulty. So many characters have so many different type of moves that you can't retaliate properly unless you just go by instinct or actually know the thing. And there are so many different type of moves too. Like King's grab. Which is something you need to know. But in a 2D fighter the strat to fight against a grappler is to just stay away. Which goes to all grapplers that's but not the case in tekken. Leffen wants to be in a position quickly where he knows everything and the opponent knows everything and be on an equal standing. That's possible in most 2D fighters even the most complex ones like BlazBlue or Guilty Gear. But it's impossible in Tekken because they are fundamentally different from a 2D fighter. And remember that he's comparing to 2D fighters only. Not games like League where you need to know a lot of stuff to be on equal standing. Once you have an understanding of 2D fighters, there's a lot similarity with all of them. So they are easier to adapt to. As he's new to Tekken he doesn't know the fundamentals. But the game doesn't teach a lot of those things. And also the amount of characters and moves. This makes someone who's new but wants to improve quickly impossible. But that's possible in a 2D fighter and you can carry those skill to other 2D fighters. Now the thing is if you are dedicated you can learn all of these, Just like League. But you really can't improve quickly. Which Leffen takes issue with. As he just don't want to spend that much time to get to the good level.

[@JoshT4life]

100 percent agree. It's like reading a dictionary if you want to know everything in tekken lol

[@Nicholas8929]

It seems like he is talking about how to play like every new player is going to want to go to tournaments

[@toto_feather8732]

The way it feels like he just instantly wants to become the best at Tekken triggers me a little... That's not really a good mindset if you want to enjoy the game, if you ask me ^^

[@RizzerixLP]

You can already tell that he just wanted to become pro in tekken in the shortest amount of time just by watching the first 10-20 seconds of the video he uploaded before this one. He made a video where he wanted to give it another chance and one of the first things he says is...... WHICH CHARACTER IS TOP TIER? I want to play a character who is S tier and if there is no one I like, then I want to go through the tier list from the top to the bottom until I find a character I like. This mindset is so hilarious to me. It' like Jesus man! Play who you want dude! Why you want to become a pro in this game?!! It should be about the fun and not about competitive. It's really sad to see this kind of mindset in the heads of people these days :/

[@Skelliiie]

@Takatama81 basically this. He wants a fighter he can play as a secondary game, but tekken takes too much dedication for that to be plausible, is basically what Leffen said.

[@skyrocket202]

I feel the way Leffen thinks about it is just that the game itself should have more/better learning tools rather than having to Google a hefty amount. Where it seems that's he's being a crybaby essentially boils down to the fact that you need a high time investment for a much lower reward in skill gain. Simply put, it's very frustrating to learn what you need to, especially if you don't have a high motivation to learn the game.

[@coolcool5181]

nandro I think it’s more that he wants to play the actual “core” of the game. He wants to reach the point where the reason he loses is because his opponent outplayed him, not because he got hit by a move he’s never seen in his life before. In SFV and Smash this level can be achieved relatively quickly, but it is nowhere near pro level. Yet most people would say that this is when the “real game” starts.

[@noobhero7]

This is exactly how I felt when I initially saw his review as a "new" Tekken player myself (Been playing nearly 2 weeks but have watched pro Tekken for nearly 2 years, thanks Little Majin). My gripe is that the "opinions and criticisms don't feel "accurate" mainly because he's only played a week. Can you not like the game after a week? Sure. But it just comes off as biased criticism when some of those same "problems" are honestly just game experience. This game doesn't just reward frame knowledge, it rewards ADAPTATION. It's why it's so satisfying pulling off a 2-0 deficit in a match because your "learning mid fight". No 2 players will ever be the same. Learn the popular moves of your enemy, but BE READY FOR ANYTHING. That's why I love watching Tekken (and now playing it too!) P.S. Maining Leroy even when he gets nerfed. That man has too much swagger.

[@DreGamingNetwork]

"When he's nerfed", what happened to ADAPTATION? 😆

[@noobhero7]

@@DreGamingNetwork When he is nerfed, I'm gonna have to adapt to whatever changes they make to him, but I will at least already be familiar to the point where those changes don't harm my overall play. Adaptation.

[@DreGamingNetwork]

@@noobhero7 you don't get it, you said this game rewards adaptation. Nerfs aren't adaptations, they are punishments.

[@noobhero7]

@@DreGamingNetwork My point about ADAPTATION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME TALKING ABOUT THE EVENTUAL NERF OF LEROY. My point of ADAPTATION was about the prior. You can't expect 2 Bryans to play exactly the same because of the diverse players that play this game. Learn some of popular strings And how to punish them, but BE prepared to adapt to the type of player your up against, literally like any fighting game. And even if your favorite Character DOES get nerfed (Now Im talking about Leroy) It is a form of adapting if you learn to still be great with it post punishment and not just drop the character because it isn't "as good" anymore.

[@noobhero7]

@@DreGamingNetwork That same point of adapting comes towards learning in and out of fights, it's LITERALLY what I talked about with coming back from a 2-0 deficit in a match, you didn't come.vack 3-2 BY ACCIDENT. IT was because you learned

[@loris.badeau]

1:11:54 As a yoshi player I can confirm this 😂😂. I love being cheesy back with some stances, especially when I'm playing against salty and or Leroy/Eliza/Noctis players. Also Kamikaze is the most fun thing to spam with.

[@kadajj6717]

they could probably just improve the replay system a little so that it tells you how to break certain grabs and just gives you more info. I think this would speed up the learning process

[@codallenschmidt]

19:24 I feel u missed the point. He wasn’t saying he couldn’t see the difference between the 2 animations. He was saying the animations didn’t make it intuitive that one is a mid and one is a high. Like on street fighter their overheads are very obvious

[@ThekidSpot]

Tekken community could scare off any new players. Mans just simply said it’s not for him.

[@abovehap7138]

Yeah that chat is more convincing in keeping me away

[@lililing14]

So... Don't read the chat?

[@theanti-hypemonitor9079]

today i stepped outside my comfort zone in tekken and let a 500 hr green rank heihachi demolish me. i think we played 1 to 1/2 hrs. and shortly after that i demolished a green rank jin. i play steve and ironically struggle alot against the michimas. so i think that session made me improve allready.

[@Epoch2498]

I know this video is 3 yrs old at this point, but it's good for what it represents. Not just for the Tekken community but for competitive gaming in its entirety.

[@jaywizz17]

@ 46:17 YES!! EXACTLY!! TMM fully understands the mindset!! leffen doesn’t want to spend months & months JUST learning what you can do in the game.