To have the cake AND eat it! GREENBACKS+BLACKBACKS

I'm playing a 1973 Marshall JMP 50W Lead half stack where I combine Greenbacks and Blackbacks. The warmth and spatial richness of the Greenbacks combined with the punch and presence of the Blackbacks results in one of the best tones I've ever had on the channel!
Someone told me there were some KZbinr falsely claiming that the difference between Greenback and Blackbacks is just the color of the cap. So, I provide you with the definition below. The three eras of G12M/G12H are actually quite different in tone.
The Celestion G12M and G12H (and others) used
Pulsonic Paper Cones until 1973 (Green)
R/C1 Paper Cones 1974-1975 (Cream)
Kurt Mueller Paper Cones 1976-1980 (Black)
The names refer to the color of caps most commonly occurring for each type.
There are other differences too regarding voice coil, doping etc but the cones is the main difference.
Check out SoloDallas excellent article on how to identify these speakers.
solodallas.com/celestion-loud...
Or Bygone tones excellent site:
www.bygonetones.com
Gear:
1973 Marshall JMP 50W Lead Model 1987
1976 Marshall 4x12 Model 1982A with
2X 1976 G12H30 55Hz T1281 (Blackbacks/Kurt Mueller)
1973 G12M25 75Hz T1221 (Greenback/Pulsonic)
1971 G12H30 55Hzz T1281 (Greenback/Pulsonic)
2013 Gibson SG Standard Custom Shop Aged
Close mics: SM57, e906, MD421
Room mic: C414BXLII

[@kwright3929]

I'm so glad i found this channel. Helped me a lot, to cope with life, let alone the sheer joy of the videos. Great gut as well. A lesson every time

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Glad to have you here!

[@Planklike]

Celestion Green-Blacks

[@JohanSegeborn]

Cheers 😉

[@frantisca]

To me, if you take one alone it’s the Greenback 73 M25 75Hz. All together sound great ! 👍🏻🤘🏻 Cheers Johan !

[@JohanSegeborn]

Cheers Rene!

[@anthonyalgeri5469]

The best purchase I ever made in my 40 years of buying guitar gear was not a 1963 Fender Stratocaster, or a custom authenticate 1958 Les Paul with flametop custom shop, nor a Klon KTR or Fulltone tape delay BUT of course was a pair of Celestion Greenback 20 Watters from 1968 salvaged from a home made 4 x12 box I found in a P>A shop. Only 2 worked and they were placed into a Marshall Bluesbreaker combo early 2000's with Kt66 tubes added. Magic was created. The Holy Grail. All my gear sounds great through that amp.

[@zachariahwade8482]

Absolutely !! I’m about 40 years in too and have some killer gear(71 1987, 79 2203, 02 LP Standard) but getting my 68 t1221 Pulsonic straight cab was the key to unlocking the vintage tone I was after.

[@marksguitars5617]

great demo, the different tones and mics really shows. I have 1973 gray back G12Ms and later 70s G12H green backs, I was considering combining them into one cab, this demo really helps. thanks for all you do , Johan, take care

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks my friend!

[@carlriz18]

Just what I thought! Thanks Johan. Im gonna take 2 1975 creambacks out of 1 cab and swap them into my 77 blackback cab and vice versa. I too noticed how perfect these 2 cabs sounded together. Your video confirms for me how I can make 2 perfect sounding cabs.

[@maxvockner]

Just put a scum back black back and Chinese green back in my 212 cab with a headfirst cali 50w head and it absolutely rips. What a tone monster!

[@alanst.4417]

Great idea, Johan, they really do sound awesome together. That's the kind of your videos I love. Also thanks for the Gary Moore vibe, always appreciated! If I only could pick one, it'd be the G12M for sure, it's a classic for a reason. I only miss a G12H 75Hz, which is probably my favourite incarnation in your comparisons, even though it's mainly been used in Orange and Laney amps.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Alan! Yeah the T1217 G12H30 75Hz is a killer speaker for mellower amps. Cheers!

[@zachariahwade8482]

About 12 years ago I got a late 70’s slant with Blackback 55hz H30’s but the spider lifted on one so I removed two and replaced them with V30’s on the bottom. In the last 5 years or so I’ve got into Pulsonics and now own two 68 straight cabs with t1221 Greenbacks and those cabs are so much better than the Blackback/V30 cab. I’ve also got a spare pair of 69 Pulsonic t1221’s and this video has inspired me to put the Blackbacks H30’s on the bottom and Greenbacks on top. Thanks Johan

[@jcwear89]

Excellent video ! I love the combination of all three, sounds really big :)

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks!

[@walterworrall]

I love every video. Thank you brother.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks brother!

[@blazelarson1427]

The 71 greenback kept causing me to look up to see which one it was. This is another cool experiment from you!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Blaze!

[@Twobarpsi]

Excellent demonstration 🤘

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Glad to hear it!

[@crflores76]

Really great video, clearly shows the tone differences… I love the mix!!! I prefer black back g12h over the greenbacks g12h

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, I'm glad to hear that!

[@ricardadn]

Molt bona feina, com sempre fas. GRÀCIES!!

[@jcoulter43]

Would love if you decided to start making IR's off all your speakers and various cab and speaker combinations. You are so spot on when you mix these two together, they really sound fantastic together. Tonal bliss achieved. God bless and rock on 🎸😎👍

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks J! Hopefully I’ll get some IRs done this fall

[@rickya3877]

Great demo...I'm a lifetime Greenback M user and recently bought a 2x12 cab with Blackback M's...I found them a bit too bright,but could see how they would mix well with the Greens...I know you tried the old Blue Scumbacks,but if you get a chance, please try the current M and J series - standard 75htz or PVC (paper voice coil)...they are truly superb

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Ricky!

[@vintagetone22]

Yeahhhh cant wait .its going to be superb .👍👍👍👍🤟🤟🤟🤟🌷🌷🌷🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@JohanSegeborn]

Glad to hear it

[@USTTRM]

I was curious about the sound of the Kurt Mueller Cones! For that alone I appreciate the video sir!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! :-)

[@jean-philippemorin1176]

Blend sounds great and fuller. I think I prefer the black back over the 55hz greenback in the demo, this last one needs a bit of help in the top when compared to the others The 75hz green is the money imo. The black back can stand on their one pretty well too. :) thanks for sharing, great work again! :)

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, glad to hear it!

[@ElmoSyr]

I've been doing this on left and right guitars. I have a Greenback on the left, and a Blackback on the right as the main sound. And I've blended both with an G12H anniversary with a royer 121 to get more bottom end. Sounds huge!

[@darrellminx5459]

Killer tone on this demo. Right up there in your top five tone demos Great job Johan! Cheers

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Darrell, glad to hear that! Cheers!

[@ericscherer887]

all of them sound equally good when played through Johan 👌

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks my friend!

[@stormyweather2837]

Yum the tone was delicious!! Sorry I had to eat the tone...I couldn't resist it was so sweet thick and juicy. 😂 I really need to own at least 1 green back !

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! ;-)

[@scottdunn2178]

Have 3 Sept. '75 Blackbacks with the Kurt Mueller 1777 cones (25w/75hz). My favorite Celestions 👍

[@greghitt1704]

Just grabbed a matched pair of March ‘76 Kurt Mueller 1777 T1234 and going to pair with some greenies

[@scottdunn2178]

@@greghitt1704 Cool. Mine are T1221

[@chrisstevens4680]

Hi Johan, I would be very interested to see how the 3 speaker combination matches up to the 15” Fullback! Any chance of doing A video to check this out?

[@jahjah67]

That ‘73 Greenback is fantastic. Anytime you want to sell it, please let me know. The Blackback’s sound great and this is indeed a great combination

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks!

[@FendCore]

I bought two Mueller black backs for a reasonable price and put them in a Bogner Oversized 2x12... On top of my CAA 4x12 loaded with Greenbacks (modern ones). So I was a bit lucky but that's the way I discovered this perfectly matched couple of speakers! But still never capture the two cabs in my studio (it's my reharshall rig). Now I have to get a MD421 😅

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah MD421 seems to really like Kurt Mueller cones

[@siegfriedwashburn3484]

Hi, Johan! I think, greenback is my only sound for last 10 years, but black are more agressive. I wish, I could try it soon!! See you! Siegfried

[@JohanSegeborn]

See you Siegfried!

[@DavidVeeGuitars]

The best sound you've ever gotten? The recipe is easy. Simply take 1 legendary Johan, add him to any Plexi-driven, vintage Celestion-loaded rig, and let's go! Recipe serves all who appreciate great tone. This demo adds to your well-earned You Tube reputation as the leading authority on vintage Celestion speakers. (Of course, now my search for a pair of reasonably priced Mueller Blackbacks to match up with the vintage Pulsonic Greenbacks I acquired begins. Sorry, wallet - blame Johan.) Keep making these entertaining and informative videos, sir. Your talent and knowledge are greatly appreciated. Celestion should hire you as a sound consultant to fix their reissues. I can see it now - the Celestion Johan Segeborn model G12M25-JS and G12H30-JS speakers. Cheers!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks my friend, that’s kind of you. Bygone Tones knows more about vintage Celestions than I do though. Cheers!

[@mrshredder0076]

Love your videos. I just bought a 1982 unloaded. Going to put 2 greenback uk pulsonics on top. Torn on which h55 I’m putting in the bottom. Blackback h55 or h30 55. For ZZ Top Hendrix zeppelin and early Van Halen. Your advice ?

[@adamwatson6916]

I had a chance to buy 2 late 70s g12h30 speakers that had silver backs like the G12 65s and G1280s and the guy only wanted 200 dollars for the pair and they were hardly ever used but they guy selling them lived a couple of hours away and I don't have a car so getting them would have been a big hassle so I did not bother but I will regret it I am sure since he only wanted 200 for the pair . Also I am extremely happy with my heritage G12H30 55hz and 75hz speakers expectedly the 75hz version. The 75hz is my easily my favorite modern speakers . I have creamback 65s vintage 30s v types g12 m 25 reissues and up uphill recently have a Marshall labeled vintage 30 and a Marshall labeled G12 70 heritage which is supposed to be the Marshall spec G12 65 and and my 55hz heritage G12H30 all of which are great but the G12H30 75hz heritage is by far the best . When I first got it I did not like it all . I bought to replace the G12H30 anniversary in one my 1 by 12s as I found it too harsh and raspy and found while it had alot of upper mids it did not have much lower mids and it was like needles to the eardrum . At first the heritage 75hz sounded dull and very opaque an had this hazy chalky papery sounding upper midrange and was muffled and almost dark and it seemed like it was not breaking in but it eventually and very slowly started to break in and finally after 2 years it finished breaking . For the last 3 months I have been the only one living in my Apartment building which is a duplex house that was converted into 5 apartments and the building was sold . Some people got evicted prior to the sale others got renovicted after the sale and others did not want to sign a new lease for a year with the new owners or pay a rental increase so they loved and so for the last months I have been able to crank both my 5 watt and 40watt marshals and u have been using the G12H30 75hz heritage cab extensively and that did the trick and it now sounds incredible super clear and super present and very bright without being harsh or ice picky and the miffed quality is completely gone and so is the chalky papery cloudy midrange blanketed sound. It sounds exactly like a good G12H30 75hz should sound and if sounds great covering any type of musical ground it even does a great job covering G1M25 tones. It nails mid 70s Alex Lifeson tone and he is a said to have used G12M25 but now I am not so sure . It's hard to tell as he removed the grill cloth from his Marshall cabs and then switched to Hiwatt amps first with the no grill cloth Marshall cabs then hiwatt cabs. Maybe he used G12H30 speakers after all although I have read Marshall was only using the 55Hz version in Marshall cabs and sometimes the 55hz speakers had incorrect labels that said 75hz . One funny thing I noticed is that the G12H30 anniversary actually sounds alot more similar to the 55hz heritage H30 then it does to the 75hz heritage H30 . You would think the anniversary would sound much more like the heritage 75hz H30 but ot does not. I find the Heritage 55hz has a very similar rasp and is quite similar in the top end while having slightly less upper mids and alot more lower mids but again there are more similarities between the anniversary and the 55hz then the Anni and the 75hz heritage.

[@Avalaraeon]

That pluckin’ tho... 🤯😳🥵

[@rusty6314]

How about trying 1 green back & 1 black back in the Marshall Bluesbreaker combo?

[@ricardadn]

Blackback sempre, sempre, seeeeeeempre!!!!!!!

[@80s_kid]

Sorry if you've already answered this but I'm interested: have you ever thought about doing IRs? Just because what you do sounds very organic. Keep up the good work. 👍

[@goobiecaro8135]

The G12M steals the show for me. You wouldn't happen to have a G12H30 75hz to compare with them against? I think the H30's darken the tone a bit but prefer the '76 black back to the '71 H30. The specs you provided are very informative as well. Thank you. Cheers.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi! I have a bunch of videos that includes that version on the channel actually

[@donsmith5385]

Amazing tone, since you are running only 1 75hz greenback, have you tried a criss cross pattern?

[@pjoliver182]

Hi Johan. Do you have any late 70s G12M-25 75hz blackbacks in a slant cab?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi Paul! I have a couple of G12M25 75Hz T2114 with Aluminum dustcaps in one cab

[@Turboy65]

Just because they both say G12H30 55 Hz doesn't mean they're REALLY the same speaker. Lots of little details in their construction changed from time to time, and they do have an impact on the overall sound of the speaker. The G12H30-55 is one Celestion that can be found as a Greenback, as a Blackback, and as a Creamback. Not sure about a Greyback. But I imagine that exists, too.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi! Yeah first off they have different paper cones. I go through the differences between vintage Greenbacks Creambacks and Blackbacks in the video description

[@HiHello-ku1fl]

I was hoping you compared the Black back G12m 75 Hz as well. Oh well.

[@YMESYDT]

Hey Johan, have you ever messed with converting a '68/'69 Bandmaster to a 2x8 mini combo? Thinking about trying it and just curious

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi! No but it sounds like a really cool idea

[@rebeldedelsur8830]

In a 4X12, they all do their part.

[@ricardadn]

Sempre et dic que has de fer més palm-mute en les teves demostracions per escoltar elsvgreus,saps?

[@tomasvanecek8626]

Celestion Golds 12s give me THE Marshall sound with my 68 and 71 1987s .. .. and they are no unobtanium.. Ceramic speakers came up when alnico became too expensive to be used in speakers anymore. Just the next best.. to me, they are ice-picky in all their reincarnations.. But in a band context that works.. as proved countless times ;)

[@adamwatson6916]

That SG sounds killer with the BB3. I have an epi 61 SG/les Paul with BB2 and BB3 and it sounds killer and just as good as a Gibson SG and in some cases better. I have a 2011 Gibson SG standard Bat wing SG with Seymour Duncan whole lotta humbuckers and the Epi sounds a little better. More clear more open and more detailed in the lower mids . I compared a couple of other epi 61/les paul/Sgs to a couple of gibosn usa 61 Sgs and both the epis with BB2 and BB3 as well as my own were the better playing and sounding SGs compared to Gibson USA Sgs . The necks on the Gibson USA 61 SGs was way to thin and they were almost completely flat on the back of the Back . Slim taper C? More like slim taper I the epi 61 necks were thicker and had alor more shoulder and were somewhere in between a C and D shape very comfortable necks m slim but not super slim. The epi 61 necks are much more in line with the Gibson custom shop 61 neck profiles. Maybe it was the pickups but the Epis all sounded better . More open and more balanced with a richer more detailed lower nid range. More clarity and and much nicer more rounded high end that was much less harsh and ice picky compared to the Gibson USA 61 . The gibson 61 Sgs were also fuzzier sounding in the low end and kind of farty and grainy sounding in the lows . This could be down to the pickups . I have never really liked the BB61 pickups at all although they sound alot better sounding in les Paul's to my ears but even them I am not a fan and they sound nothing like a late paf from 61 or an early patent sticker pickup from 62. The BB2 and BB3 blow them away in SGs and les Paul's and the BB1 BB2 and BB3 sound alot more like Vintage pickups then the 61s although the BB1 2 and 3 sound more like latter 70s and early 80s hard rock pickups then they do Pafs although they have alot more PAF in them them BB61s or even 57 classics. Which is why I Love the BB2 and 3 sets . The fact that they don't sound exactly like a vintage Gibson pickup and are wound hotter and have a modem twist on the tone is exactly why they are one if my favorite sets. To my ears the BB2 and BB3 have more in common tonaly to Gibson Patent sticker pickups from 62 to 64 then they do with anything from 1957 to 1960 which suits me just fine . I have duncan seth lovers for the more accurate late 50s PAF thing. The BB2 and 3 are very versatile and can split the difference between vintage and modern and sound great doing either one . They just might be my favorite pickups or at least tied for it with my duncan slash pickups and that is really saying something because I have owned alot of pickups and currently own Several sets of high quality pickups. Such as 3 sets of custombuckers a set of Seth lovers 2 sets of Duncan whole lotta humbuckers a set of Duncan slash pickups and some BB1 and BB2s so the BB2 and 3 of which I have half a dozen different sets are in good high quality company and I don't feel the need for boutique but those BB2 and 3 sets just have something that do it for me and I really love the slash set the seth lovers whole lottas and custombuckers as much as I love my Duncan sets and they are all amazing I fell into rhe trap of believing they are superior to Gibson pickups in every way and depending on the guitar or the Gibson and duncan sets in question they can be but not always and many times they are not. I have realized that gibsons higher end pickups like BB1 BB2 BB3 the various takes on the custombuckers and on the right guitar even the 57 classic and classic plus or even a lowly 490 with a magnet swap to Alnico 5 can often times be just as good and in many cases even better and alot times it can be the Duncan's that sound better. Also ducan pickups and gibsom pickups are very different animals wound with different objectives in mind so in that sense they are very hard to Compare I also have 3 epi 59 les Paul's 2 have BB2 and BB3 and the third has custombuckers and the BB2 and BB3 loaded epi 59s sound just as good as the one loaded with CBs different but just as good . The one with CBS sounds more vintage brighter and more open while the 2 with BBs sound a little thicker and a little darker and have more of an early 80s hard rock and metal tone. Kind of shout at the devil Motley Crue era . Fatter thicker Low end and more of a vocal low mid vowel sound while the Custombucker epi is more upper midrange focused . More of led zeppelin 2 type of sound. Think the electric guitar om the chorus or ramble on The 3 epi 59s all with higher end gbson pickups hold there own agianst my 2 Gibson custom 58 les paul reissues one of which has the stock custombuckers and the other duncan seh lovers and while the 58s have more depth and are more detailed and touch Sénsitive all epi 59s give them a serious run for their money or I should say my money and hold their won shockingly well especially the epi with custombuckers . The CBs bring it even closer to a gibson customshop collaboration