Tom-MI | No Life On Mars = God | Talk Heathen 06.49

[@dx1450]

Tom is so incredibly intelligent that even he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[@nondescriptcat5620]

"i have a degree in earth science, and i'm familiar with Albert Einstein." words said before disaster.

[@tonybennett4159]

Einstein was an undoubted genius, but a lot of things have happened since then, so quoting Einstein is a bit like creationists trying to quote Darwin, plus, both have been copiously misquoted.

[@Illawong]

@@tonybennett4159 But then more and more people agree with Albert Einstein's position as an Agnostic Atheist.

[@norbertjendruschj9121]

Having a degree in earth sciences myself (geophysics), I would like to press one point: We are not all idiots.

[@nondescriptcat5620]

@@norbertjendruschj9121 that's true. what does it for me is being "familiar" with Einstein. like, everyone is "familiar" with Einstein, he's one of the most famous scientists in history. also aren't most earth scientists specialists (either geology, geochemistry, or geophysics)? so it comes off as "i have a broad (but not necessarily deep) understanding of one scientific discipline, so allow me to misrepresent a theoretical physicist in a totally different field."

[@norbertjendruschj9121]

@@nondescriptcat5620 Indeed. And a theoretical physicist would hardly boast about being "familiar" with Einstein.

[@Keras33]

Einstein quote: "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.” So much for this fella being familiar with Einstein!

[@nicholashazel7049]

It was Richard Feynman. The Feynman Technique Pretend to teach a concept you want to learn about to a student in the sixth grade.

[@bunji_beans]

I have a hunch that using big words is not why no one understands Tom

[@Mouse_007]

I'm going to want to use Occam's razor in a whole new way if I have to listen to this caller ever again.

[@sophistichistory4645]

..........Good one!!..........

[@TheZombieSaints]

Ha! That's funny 👍👏

[@jquest99]

@R Boland It was a cutting point.

[@petebetz5358]

I'm convinced that this guy couldn't hurt himself with any kind of razor as he surely doesn't have an understanding of what Occam's razor even is... And you're right that was funny as hell..

[@joeely6817]

I don't think that the place he is calling from would allow him to have a razor or any other sharp objects.

[@PreviouslyDelicious]

"To say we have not found other life in the universe is like walking up to the shores of the ocean, scooping a thimbleful of water out, peering inside and proclaiming there's no whales in the ocean cause you didn't see them." - some guy I cant remember.

[@chesterdamolester6990]

Neil DeGrasse Tyson

[@PreviouslyDelicious]

@@chesterdamolester6990 awesome! Thanks! I knew he said it but I thought he was quoting someone else.

[@meloveAi]

This, I think, is a good example of being so open-minded your brain falls out.

[@dx1450]

I'm not so sure he had a brain.

[@Rob_Jacobs]

You guys are so generous with your patience and your time, this was like you listening to a 5 year old holding a Lego and shyly telling you about his day that turns into complete stream of consciousness.

[@thecarrotsarecoming4711]

I think with this guy they saw an opportunity to genuinely converse with someone who has faulty logic

[@ninjabluefyre3815]

This is doubtless one of the STRANGEST calls one of the shows has ever gotten.

[@cryptofacts4u]

We know planets exist, we know life exists, we don't know that a God exists, so adding it as an explanation unnecessarily violates Occam's razor

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

No, it NECESSARILY violates Occam's Razor

[@girlwithtehface5880]

@@shinobi-no-bueno I think Crypto Facts meant "unnecessarily," as in "violates Occam's razor when it doesn't need to." As opposed to where you said "necessarily," meaning "it definitely does violate Occam's razor." You're both saying it does violate Occam's razor. Crypto Facts was just adding that the additional information does not need to be there and is therefore unnecessary.

[@jestermoon]

Mysterious eh?

[@cryptofacts4u]

@@girlwithtehface5880 100%

[@Gamer_G33k]

@@girlwithtehface5880 Pretty sure he was just making a "Necessary Being" joke

[@lnsflare1]

There's no evidence of life on the infinitesimal fraction of the surface of Mars that humans have physically searched with rovers, therefore Galactus, Devourer of Worlds, exists.

[@sausagemahoney7525]

I’m alright with that logic

[@Khan-wt3lb]

Pretty convincing to me absolutely no logical fallacies

[@scottc1857]

What's even funnier Is we have found life in space. We've found extremophiles in space rocks. The god of the gaps is not even razor thin anymore, we're dealing with nano gaps and therefore nano gods at this point

[@StrGzr101]

Dunning-Kruger on full display. He's sooo impressed with his own faulty reasoning.

[@psychedelicicecream3613]

I agree 100%. It's actually kind of amazing 🤯

[@StrGzr101]

@@psychedelicicecream3613 Tis.

[@dx1450]

He knows a bunch of big words but doesn't really know what they mean.

[@StrGzr101]

@@dx1450 ... You said it. And he was trying so hard to stretch his brain around the nonsense. It was hard to watch.

[@roscius6204]

Oh man... excruciating

[@davidbartig3661]

As soon as i heard about the degree, I wondered "How long before the self important, condescending, bullshit starts?" Huh! Not long, imagine that!

[@drewdrewski6278]

I can’t believe they devoted half an hour to this!!

[@heinshaaine8153]

This is so funny in its own mindnumbingly stupid way...

[@greeneyedlady5580]

I can't believe that I devoted half an hour listening to that dufus!

[@kuroiryu9434]

This guy has all the mental planning skill of an underpants gnome

[@Rob_Jacobs]

?????

[@Rob_Jacobs]

PROFIT

[@nondescriptcat5620]

step 1: no life on Mars step 2: ??? step 3: GOD!

[@michaelbrown343]

Hahahahaaaaaaaa!

[@EvilEyeGypsy]

As soon as he figures out step 2, he’ll have the last laugh.

[@TheSufferBrothers2]

"Flurble gumble doopie bawpie dwoobie gloop so God."

[@freddan6fly]

You nailed it.

[@88mphDrBrown]

Whoa whoa whoa, please don't use such big words.

[@phoenixkingtheo]

The caller really has a high opinion of himself

[@JamesR1701]

He uses big words even when they aren't necessary, that also makes him an unsufferable prat with a high opinion of himself.

[@freddan6fly]

The caller is deeply impressed with his own imagined smartness.

[@psychoboy6613]

Glad it wasn't just me that thought he sounded kinda arrogant or condescending

[@stevewhite6861]

@@psychoboy6613 Definitely not on your own, he is an insufferable dick.

[@djfussell1987]

He obviously gets off on the smell of his own farts!

[@alangarland8571]

"There are no fossils" Nobody really expected there would be fossils

[@BrookeK92]

Love Johnny's subtle callout of this pretentious caller calling the hosts stupid before he even started his argument lol sOrRy iF i UsE bIg WoRdS

[@kentiandacalos636]

I will forever be stuck on trying to know the connection of having no life in Mars and god existing.

[@alfresco8442]

Injecting something as complicated as a god into the universe is the exact antithesis of Occam's Razor.

[@daniellehutchison3585]

The fact that god (if he was real) is necessarily the most complicated thing ever -- most likely too complex by definition to ever be accurately understood, perceived, or described by humans -- goes over so many people's heads...like you said the exact counterpart to anything that could be Occam's razor

[@cryptofacts4u]

Occam's razor explained: We both agree that toasters exist. we both agree that the components of toasters exist. we both agree that toaster components break. We don't agree that Gremlins exist. Occam's razor basically says don't add Gremlins to the explanation unnecessarily. So unless you can prove that Gremlins exist and you have a necessary reason to put them in, they should be left out

[@heinshaaine8153]

I dont agree that toasters exists nor that they have "toaster components"

[@tetsujin_144]

Suppose we consider where these "toasters" came from... Some will say that they come from a toaster factory, filled with toaster factory workers who all work on individual pieces of the toaster, following the design of some toaster designer, the whims of some toaster company CEO, etc., etc., etc. - I find this belief totally unreasonable, it depends on all these additional entities. The simplest explanation according to Occam's Razor, the one that assumes the fewest additional entities, would be to say that an all-powerful god made it! (I love misapplying logic to produce dumb answers)

[@roscius6204]

Hmmmm pretty sure my toaster has gremlins....

[@lnsflare1]

Please don't put gremlins in your toasters. Not only would that void your warranty, gremlins are only palatable stewed.

[@dwendt44]

"Looking for life" on Mars is just getting started. We've only scratched the surface. The search continues. Mars, it's believed, did have the temperature and the atmospheric pressure that would permit life to happen millions of years ago.

[@dx1450]

Basically what we've done is like parachuting someone in the middle of the Sahara Desert, who walks around for a few weeks not seeing anything but sand, and then declaring there's no life on Earth.

[@exceptionallyaverage3075]

I wonder if Tom's used to talking with people who agree with him just to shut him up.

[@frankwebster9110]

I don't I don't want to use big words and confuse anybody so I'm going to use a lot of common everyday words to say absolutely nothing.

[@blindfreddy9157]

Tom is the smartest voice in his own head.

[@dx1450]

I don't know, I bet the voices in his head are probably far more intelligent. Not a damn thing he said made any sense.

[@erniemathews5085]

His thinking is as muddled as his theology, but don't he think he's one smart fella!

[@stevewhite6861]

Occam's razor is basically, go with the thing that requires the fewest assumptions.

[@Selcryn]

And Tom seems to be under the impression that it means to go with the thing that requires all the assumptions.

[@stevewhite6861]

@@Selcryn Unfortunately for him yes, but delusion runs deep in religion.

[@goddessmelanisia]

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses before zebra.

[@heinshaaine8153]

@@goddessmelanisia if a theist claims he has proof for a god assume they are lying.

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

@@Selcryn well he's looking for "simplicity" and his theological indoctrination causes him to believe God is the only option thereby being the most "simple."

[@MicrobyteAlan]

Einstein once said when asked a tough question, “I’m not an Einstein”

[@0Fyrebrand0]

My favourite part was when he said "It's Einsteinin' time!" and he Einsteined all over those guys.

[@alisonjones8861]

OMG. I'm laughing hysterically at the latter end of this call. Please say something that makes sense, Tom!

[@onepunch9203]

Excellent and generous questions, Secular Rarity!

[@heinshaaine8153]

I really want Matt to react to his arguments so we get a ln idea were this craziness comes from

[@michaelreindel6975]

Caller: “I’m *really* smart and [static] - “ Hosts: “Talk into the phone.” Caller: “Occam’s razor implies God is the best explanation for everything.” Hosts: “How’s that…?” Caller: “Because there are no rat droppings on Mars.” Hosts: “And…?” Caller: “And there are also no fossils on Mars.” Hosts: “What’s your actual point?” Caller: “Jupiter’s moons might be drilled.” Hosts: “Huh?” Caller: “I’ve met the burden of proof.” Hosts: “How so…?” Caller: “This is all just going in circles.” For somebody who spent an *annoying* amount o’ time declaring how smart he is, this caller seems to misunderstand basic concepts, leap to extraordinarily erroneous conclusions, meaninglessly regurgitate phrases out of context, and just seems genuinely out-to-lunch… …he’s also *aggressively* condescending for someone who can’t even articulate “Why?” he even called.

[@daniellehutchison3585]

Well, aggression is naturally a big part of the God belief because it's primarily a projection.. Show me a humble, passive and intelligent person and I'll show you someone who couldn't care less whether or not god exists

[@ravarga4631]

Tom is giggling, snickering, chuckling, could he be a troll?

[@grantwing4942]

The voice is familiar. I think its one that calls under different names. They like to hear themselves talk.

[@cctomcat321]

A lot of callers laugh at their own incredulity and misunderstanding as a defense mechanism. So it's honestly not that easy to tell.

[@wabbajack2]

Hosts: "Tell us about Occam's Razor." Caller: "I have a degree in Earth Science and I'm familiar with Albert Einstein..." Me: Dis gun b gud.

[@tonybennett4159]

This was one of the most painful things I've ever seen on an atheist show. The guy seemed to think that his concepts were so complex that he made great play that he was going to try simple language and he put your incomprehension of the garbage and copious non sequiturs down to insufficient intellect on your part. I felt for you and the twisted logic he was spouting that you were trying to get a handle on. I'm sure he'll go away from this thinking you're intellectual lightweights, and so acts the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[@freddan6fly]

"I am familiar with the strawman of Einstein that I dreamed up".

[@tetsujin_144]

Oh yeah I know that guy, he has crazy hair and a silly-sounding accent. He's pretty fun. I think Walter Matthau played him in a movie once.

[@hkk3656]

The reason he couldn't find god on Mars was because he was hiding behind a rock. Peek-a-boo. 😆

[@mickhughes6327]

Tom should of probably taken the time to organise his thoughts before calling in.

[@dieudebois]

He sure did. But it didn't help.

[@FourDeuce01]

He should have taken some time to have some thoughts.🤤

[@markmiller7317]

You can tell right away that Secular Rarity isn't buying this guy's B.S.

[@brianharris7243]

Not every complex idea can be expressed in simple language. Sometimes the technicalities are hard to understand.

[@nondescriptcat5620]

he's completely misrepresenting Ordinary Language Philosophy, the point of which is that using increasingly specialized philosophical terminology, rather than using language as it's commonly understood, ends up creating a lot of the structural problems that philosophy then concerns itself with. so ironically, Tom twisting concepts like "evidence" *is the problem.*

[@nagranoth_]

And sometimes the problem isn't the words, but that the caller tries to express nonsense.

[@gatorboymike]

When the volume cut out, that must have been Tom escaping his cell and running from the orderlies.

[@MrEmpireBuilder0000]

This is exactly why believers are so hard to discuss with. They ALWAYS leap from one idea to another.

[@655irish]

Love the Bowie quote From someone so young And a song so obscure Is there life on Mars?

[@FourDeuce01]

Tom: “There’s a logic here.” If there was, you wouldn’t have to say that.🤡 “Welcome to my world.” Oh, Tom, nobody can come to visit you in your world.😂

[@simonkoster]

Albert Einstein also said (slightly parafrased) "Simplify your explanation as far as possible, but no further".

[@AngryBoozer]

Weird thing to say though. How can you even do something more than it’s possible?

[@0Fyrebrand0]

*Believers:* "Life could only come about by divine intervention. Creation implies a creator." *Also Believers:* "Lack of creation implies a creator too, though."

[@bencoppola1222]

I would have ironically asked Tom where the missing link in his argument is.

[@tan_x_dx]

Speaking of Occam's Razor, did you know that if one was to apply it the way the caller does, then the assumption of an all powerful, all knowing entity would be rejected? Here's a simple proof, which even works under classical christian theology: Consider the act of creation as put forward by christian theology. God creates the universe. Question: Prior to the act of creation, was there a universe? The answer is a simple No. There was no universe in existence prior to the act of creation. This is obvious, and this is in fact the entire point behind the creation. Another question: Given the above, did god need to destroy a universe in order to create one? Again, the answer must logically be no - there was no universe present that could be destroyed. Thus, the ability or power to destroy a universe was unnecessary, since it could not have actually been applied. Therefore, an entity which had all the abilities of god, EXCEPT for that ability could also have gotten the job done. Thus omnipotence is unnecessary - a lesser being would suffice. Thus, by Occam's Razor, god is not omnipotent. QED. A similar argument holds for omniscience, and the knowledge of how to destroy a universe.

[@psychologicalprojectionist]

Occam's Razor completely misstated! It is nothing about "understanding" or say anything about the truth of an assertion. It simply says "should be preferred". It accepts that a more complicated explanation could be right, but without evidence to rule out a simpler explanation, the simpler explanation is more likely.

[@carolinenagel7085]

This one is as funny is the one with Genevieve and Katie talking to - well, making fun of, to be fair - Billy from Texas. Both made me laugh so hard my sides hurt.

[@greeneyedlady5580]

Ooh, I'll have to search for that one!

[@edbyrne7166]

Your patience is epic kudos

[@daytimegaming3122]

Tom needs to stop focusing on Occam’s razor, and instead look up the definition of non sequitur.

[@ahh_yes_mr_bax]

This is what someone sounds like when they watch a lot of “documentaries” and think they are the smartest in the room. He actually starts out with a really terrible understanding of Occum’s Razor, then violates Occum’s Razor for almost the entire rest of the call.

[@danij5055]

"I'm familiar with Albert Einstein. Also apparently I can't even count to 3." Brilliant...

[@MicrobyteAlan]

70% of everyone will only understand 50% of this clip. 😳

[@Mouse_007]

I'm 30% sure I understood 10%

[@MicrobyteAlan]

@@Mouse_007 -I 100% agree with you

[@cnault3244]

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that." ~~Homer Simpson

[@MicrobyteAlan]

@R Boland- exactly 😊 good one 👍

[@johnmurrie8907]

Nonsense - everyone knows that 42% of statistics are made up! 🤣

[@formerfatboy90]

Came for the rationality, stayed for the “Life on Mars?” lyrics.

[@theholybox4690]

I love you guys thx

[@juanjoseescanellas3798]

You know?, I liked your approach, clarity, patience, kindness, and communication style.

[@nickwardmusic]

Patience of Job springs to mind lol

[@dobrien51]

Tom’s college needs to revoke his degree no matter what it is in.

[@cryptofacts4u]

Says he has a definition that is three parts, the third part is actually three things, so it's more like a five-part definition

[@freddan6fly]

Not sure he can count.

[@ellarpc]

As a newcomer to the channel via this video, I wasn’t sure what side of the god argument you were on until it was past the 20 minute mark. I almost left the video prior to that.

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

I'll bet if they had found life on Mars, it would ALSO have been an argument for the existence of god! These apologists do love having it both ways.

[@davidhoughton2377]

He literally went “no life on Mars, god wins, end of”

[@sausagemahoney7525]

I think it was the first time he mentioned “they didn’t find life on Mars” that I realised it was an argument from incredulity, which would have been a perfect time to explain that fallacy to him. I think it would have saved about 15mins

[@callmeflexplays]

Just a bloviating gibberish generator. When he said, "there's a logic here", he was clearly mistaken.

[@thomastrinkle2294]

We’ve only explored a tiny tiny portion of Mars.

[@ReiperX]

I have a feeling that the reason people get confused by him wanting to use big words (which is often done by people who don't know what they are talking about, but are just trying to pretend to talk over someone's head) is that he uses those big words in different ways than anyone else uses that word.

[@jestermoon]

Take A Moment I've been to Mars my friend and I meet this girl who said she was a god of all god's I love her. Get Free Enjoy the time we have. Stay Safe Stay Free 🌐

[@boianko]

Honestly the caller genuinely sounds like they might be suffering from some sort of psychosis. The way he draws all these seemingly unrelated theories together in some complex logical web, that he himself says other people are unable to understand (though he attributes it to using "complex words"). It's sad really, he probably isn't this nonsensical when he is in his right mind.

[@swigglemcbiggle2577]

I immediately got r/iamverysmart vibes from tom, haven't watched all the way through yet but I imagine he's gonna be very arrogant even though he was wrong about occam's razor

[@carncats07]

30:31, absolute genius Bowie drop!!!! And again 2 min later.

[@joykeebler1916]

Spiders in reference to dried up river beds - so-to-might-have-been on Mars.

[@karlrschneider]

I can confirm that there really are rational, sane and intelligent people in Michigan. I am SURE because I have BEEN there, and met both of them.

[@joykeebler1916]

To Joann Brady: Remember - David Bowie said there were spiders on Mars (little of a laugh) - lol

[@mikesommer1914]

Tom owes us all 30min of our lives back.

[@miconis123]

What portion of the planet did the rovers explore? When you include the oceans, we haven't even fully explored our own planet.

[@burkeyatm]

I’m 100% convinced that a supernatural entity could exist. However, until ANY proof for such a thing exists, I can discard it in the same way that I discard the existence of unicorns.

[@acidicsubstance]

This is a clear example of "having a degree does not mean someone is smart".

[@robertjenkins2578]

I think Tom holds the concept of god tenaciously. He is hoping to discover sufficient, convincing evidence for his hope. He is honest enough to say that he can’t point to anything that others can also point to and say “There it is!”

[@fullTimeVeganinOhio]

Shouldn't he have just stopped his argument at the beginning when he didn't understand Occam's razor?

[@jbibro]

“I know this is complicated but I’m trying to keep it simple.” 🤔

[@petebetz5358]

All I can say is, you guys may not believe in God but you have the patience of the saints!

[@randalikepanda]

Rahhhhther condescending wasn’t he

[@Penrodyn]

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[@seanmeehan5955]

This is so sad. This poor guy is struggling so hard to articulate his position that I actually feel for him.

[@cnault3244]

Tom in Michigan has proved there is no life on Mars? Pity he didn't post a link to his peer-reviewed scientific paper that proves there is no life on Mars.

[@ziploc2000]

Could have saved NASA billions in Mars Rovers.

[@michelepowponne562]

He has a DEGREE in Earth Science for heavens sakes! A rare and precious thing. Please stop and bow to down to his advanced wisdom in Cosmology 😂

[@jaydinledford6990]

Every time I watch this it gets more brutal, he doesn't know what Occam's razor is at ALL

[@vooveks]

3:25 I’m not the only one who thinks JMike likes to bust out those five dollar words a bit too much, then…?

[@tedmoy]

"legal briefs" = underwear! hahahahahahaha omg hahahaha

[@herbieshine1312]

Love the Bowie lyric quotes! A question. Why do several KZbin hosts on atheist experience etc use "nom de plume" type names?

[@cnault3244]

Generally it's because they had individual youtube channels prior to becoming hosts on TAE and they retained their youtube name.

[@herbieshine1312]

@@cnault3244 okay that makes sense. Thanks

[@Selcryn]

Most KZbinrs use nom de plumes because its honestly a quick and easy way to increase your personal safety when you are a public or semi-public figure. Its a layer of protection.

[@herbieshine1312]

@@Selcryn thanks

[@herbieshine1312]

@R Boland I'm not as convinced of that as the other reasons people have given but I'm willing to consider it!😂😉

[@tperson8347]

I'm 75% uncertain how he's able to quantify 100% of these conclusions. I'm 2% confused.

[@gokblok]

"JMIKE ARE YOU LISTENING?" 😂😂😂

[@thewhitness21]

Also, it's not Io, it's Europa that we suspect might have life under the ice. It's super fascinating and has to do with the moon being stretched and unstretched by the gravity of Jupiter and the effect that has upon geothermal vents on the seafloor. Something we know can support life on earth. Homie is circling the drain in these concepts and doesn't really seem to grasp them...

[@davidgaunt5018]

I don't think I've ever heard a more muddled, perplexing argument on this or any other atheist call-in show. How the hell does the absence of life on Mars prove anything other than that observation? His spurious connections and reasoning are completely baffling.

[@ReverendLondo]

Enjoy the episode, appreciate the anology that using simple colloquialisms, but saying the worst sh*t a single time in court gets you convicted. And they can't even define the meaning of "profane"

[@jojoe3193]

I'm as sharp as Occam's razor!

[@joykeebler1916]

Actually, that would be a good name for a band - The fossils on Mars?

[@Ozone280]

"Proving god with a telescope hasn't proved god" Proving god with my toenail fungus cream hasn't proved god either - and for the same reason.