2019 Olympia 212 Finals Comparison: Derek Lunsford Vs Kamal Elgargni

[@Tomn8er]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Derek should've necessarily won the show. But he definitely beat Elgargni here in the Finals IMO, and the scorecards don't reflect that. What do you guys think?

[@clashsensei8267]

I was watching it live and... I gotta say that they were definitely the top two among the 212 competitors. Derek certainly looked amazing but I think Kamal should have won. It was close for sure but it can be argued either way

[@Steenkin]

Difficult to say considering how off he was at pre-judging. Structurally Derek is definitely better. In terms of conditioning, I must give the edge to Kamal. I think overall consistency on both days is what might have made the judges a little lazy but I wouldn't say its a screwjob. After last years Rhoden win, it seems overall conditioning plays a bigger role in how you're scored compared to pure pose by pose comparisons (this is just speculation on my part); as an additional example look at the video you did on the men's open this year. While you had William coming in second probably because his superior triceps, forearms and BDB give him a more 'complete' look, a LOT of people in the comments still had Haadi coming in second or even first in some cases; IMHO most likely due to his sheer conditioning prowess. Apply the same principle here and you can probably see why some people might see Kamal edging out Derek.

[@UTVH21]

Derek Biceps in Front Double is softer than SoftIce.. 🍦 Also no Peak in Back Double and Front Double.. WTF are you saw ? 🤦‍♂️ Even BIG RAMY is harder 😂

[@M.J.D.R]

Tomn8er bad impression he gave to the judges in the prejudging

[@JeanPauJean]

Lunsdford was too soft, this is Mr.Olympia for God Shake, you can't win if you not peeled!

[@bad_ro1751]

Kamal was crazy Derek disappointed me

[@myflesh10]

what because a guy is slightly less defined? Lunsford has the best physique and was robbed

[@delaneybucknor3710]

Usually agree with you but this time sorry, watched everything & Derek was off. Well done Kamal.

[@zuhairbinzahoor]

True

[@sebbyh9764]

Conditioning off

[@loganconnmusic7314]

Sebby H please tell me where Derek was off? He was fully striated EVERYWHERE at finals. He looks less dense than Kamal because Kamal has 20+ years training on him. That said he beats him everywhere in shape and size. He was also conditioned enough to easily pull the title.

[@thehungrylonewolf]

Agree well deserved

[@WannaBeLevrone]

@@thehungrylonewolf yup

[@dleigh9997]

Lunsford was a little off he deserved 2nd place!

[@rosucristian1139]

dale Wilson more than a little

[@Travisdubya]

Derek was so smooth and watery at the prejudging he shouldn’t have been second in that round. Even in this round if you look at the back shots, which are very impressive, Elgargni, has way more detail. Derek’s back had separation and superior structure but Elgargni’s was way more detailed and conditioned, especially in the lower back. I do agree the scoring doesn’t make sense tho. I think he should have been lower in prejudging and higher here. Overall I agree with Elgargni winning tho.

[@ralphcoccio3799]

I usually agree with you but not this time. Lunsford was just too smooth through the chest and delts.

[@prstation1363]

And abs. He thinks his vacuum and waist make up for it...this isn't a female division show that muscle belly!

[@lccmzansi1192]

You see your problem is that you're too blinded by Derek's structure so when he tightened up a tad bit in the finals it made you think he was better than Kamal in the finals... Derek was gifted 2nd... Kamal's peeled physique was way ahead of Derek's physique no matter how good his structure is...

[@TheTruhustlaz]

Lincoln Coventry absolutely absolutely agree with this post....it ain’t a structure battle it’s a muscle and detail show mate

[@libyanal-arab4168]

Agree

[@Retics]

EXACTLY! Stand next to someone peeled like that and you look out of place.

[@robertsharma9897]

Agreed

[@laurikotivuori1585]

@@TheTruhustlaz So Dave Palumbo should be mr olympia then? He had insane size and conditioning back in the day, with 0 shape.

[@BatmanBoss]

Kamal has such great balance. No lagging muscle groups. Great conditioning too

[@ars6811]

What are you Talking about? Kamal all the way!!!!

[@ogi-9346]

I think this guy is a fan of Derek and now he is upset

[@davecass9035]

Definitely worst analysis I've seen.

[@giovannyc3886]

I honestly don't even think Derek deserved 2nd? Shaun was better. Why act butt hurt

[@Tomn8er]

Shaun was better conditioned but gets completely outmuscled out there due to his tiny frame.

[@giovannyc3886]

@@Tomn8er well I know he's the shortest in the land of the dwarfs, but he honestly looked so good and so improved. Seeing how Derek was way off and Kamal isn't necessarily a mass monster, why not Shaun. I felt it was fair in the end(trying not to be bias) because Kamal truly knew how to present himself up there and was the most consistent out of the three. Everybody is also ignoring that he's now the oldest Mr. Olympia ever

[@rosucristian1139]

Tomn8er by your reasoning in this case, Big Rammy was robbed of 4 sandow trophies

[@MsSonic19]

The scorecard thing does look fishy, but come on, you're not being fair, Kamal totally deserved the win.

[@jettuner111]

I don't get what you see in the back double. Kamals back is way better separated. Just compare the lines in their backs, plus his better separated shoulders and crazy striated traps. Lunsford has the mass and the glutes on his side, hamstrings i see on the same lvl but Lunsfords are better oiled. I think if you see this shot in person you can give this to Kamal.

[@Danimal77]

separated*

[@Tomn8er]

Kamal's back is more detailed sure but Derek destroys him through arms delts and legs, and width-wise. 🤷‍♂️

[@samraizshoaib585]

@@Tomn8er I don't agree. Kamal may be getting beaten through the arms badly but not in shoulders. Derek's are bigger but not as sharp. The lower body is a tie. Kamal had the better calves with Lunsford taking the glutes. The hamstrings and quadsweep is the same. Width isn't enough to save Lunsford when he's absolutely demolished in terms of detail, seperation and conditioning upper body wise.

[@llucaristondoalzina2061]

You're right, but he was not robbed by any means, so yeah...

[@Utsu-P_Enjoyer]

I do think it is really suspect that the scores were identical from the pre judging to finals, im not really sure what to make of that. However I think Derek was off enough in the beginning that Kamal deserved the Win in the end. I would have placed Derek behind Shaun just because Shaun was super dialed in and ripped, at least in prejudging. If Derek wasnt off in the morning though he probably woupd have ran away with it.

[@heavymetalfitness2091]

Most of the judging takes place in the prejudging. First impressions are key. Derek was an upset and was still watery in the finals kamal didn’t make that mistake not even once

[@MegaPfc1]

You are wrong,he is still soft kamal destroyed him

[@goldenalchemist]

Kamal looked amazing in every pose. Well deserved

[@shubhmeetholkar1770]

kamal was amazing he deserved it over derek. he schooled him in the conditioning department

[@D.Boon1]

You’re way off here, you can’t award a watery mess like Derek the title

[@nipslipknot3058]

Tbh I had Derek at 3rd behind Kamal and Clarida

[@csmhybrid]

I find it funny kamal can win with conditioning but hadi was shredded to the bone but placed horribly

[@m1init830]

Placing 3rd is not horrible lol

[@csmhybrid]

@@m1init830 it is when he deserved the win or 2nd

[@chickenchokercharlie3161]

I really like your perspective and opinions. Much respect for your knowledge, Man! Thanks for the ongoing updates and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the upcoming, Mr. O!! Cheers!

[@goldburnm]

I've been on a hiatus, so I have lots of videos to catch up on. Looking forward to your analysis.

[@SPHGym6565]

This is one of the rarest occasion when I don't agree with u man... Love the way u make the videos...

[@ogi-9346]

Comon Kamal looks like super hero.. Derek's physique looks so weird, RIPPED from downstairs and upstairs looks like offseason.

[@mick998r]

I do believe the judges got it right this time with the top three. Sorry I didn't see it your way this Time Time. Appreciate the review though as always.

[@rizqibayumantari6769]

2:03 really Tom ?

[@CREEBANDZ510]

Yeah he’s either high or just blind because there’s no way Derek has a better back double bicep than Kamal here

[@goldburnm]

The ordinal judging remains a problem. We need either a pose by pose scoring system or something that better explains the reasoning. Telling me someone is first and someone is second doesn't tell us anything about what the judges thought was important.

[@AFKAwesome]

There are scorecards wdym

[@goldburnm]

@@AFKAwesome Yes and the scorecards only tell us where the judges placed people. 5 means that all the judges placed someone first. 10 means they all placed someone second, etc. That doesn't explain their reasoning at all.

[@AFKAwesome]

@@goldburnm oooo i was under the impression they scored by pose. Damn thats wierd. If the rock show happens next year they should go pose by pose just to outdo the olympia in that aspect

[@Utsu-P_Enjoyer]

Yeah i agree, there has to be some way to more clearly quantify the scores in a way that doesnt leave so many open questions. I understand bodybuilding will always be a Subjective sport but simply giving each bodybuilder a number is too vague.

[@ramtintashakkor7311]

you seriously just gave back double to lunsford! how on what planet! dude you're usually good at this. take another look

[@chevytahoe9913]

The thing is Karmal crushed Lunsford in prejudging but he barely edged him out in the finals

[@PALWE]

great vid

[@scottcrozier5495]

Kamal definitely beat Lunsford,if Lunsford actually got in condition he wouldn’t even have the size difference and that’s the only thing he has here!

[@dhruvahlawat6907]

Derek in back double? Cmon Tom.!

[@CREEBANDZ510]

I don’t understand it either.

[@hungarianbeast]

I think this is like the early 80's over again. No true dominant guy is currently in the roster (especially open) the ifbb is waiting for the new golden goose to build the next dinasty.

[@williamkelly5689]

True

[@sigurdh.s8320]

Kamal looked 90s peeled. Deserved, close fought win imo

[@Retics]

I stopped watching less than a minute in. Derek got damn near blown out the water. Everyone had him losing. And possibly in 3rd. Bodybuilding is about conditioning as much as it is mass and shape. You gotta be IN SHAPE!

[@botanicalabe]

If you come in second place in the prejudging and then first at the finals, you should be in second place. The first impression to the judges mean a lot.

[@Tomn8er]

I know historically speaking this has been the case. (Even last year Ramy, who looked amazing on Saturday night, kinda got screwed because of how poor he looked in prejudging.) But technically, both Judging and Finals are weighted equally. So I call bullshit on that

[@botanicalabe]

Tomn8er they might be equally weighted, but that first impression means everything. You can’t be soft and then come in great. Ramy looked great at the finals and probably beat a couple more people but no matter what, everyone thinks last year, Ramy came in horrible. It’s very hard to get that first impression off your mind as a judge, not to mention there’s still an argument for Kamal winning.

[@danielcockriel443]

Derek was smooth while simultaneously spilling over. Pictures are far more flattering for him than video. Well-deserved victory for Kamal.

[@aaronrey6642]

Kamal destroyed Derek in pre judging. Too much for Derek to catch up

[@bohamad1186]

Ahmed Ashkanani does not deserve the fifth position but deserves the fourth position, and this is clearly the largest muscle size and the best muscle coordination as well. Look at the owner of the fourth position !!! It's amazing !!

[@MrVerdunkeln]

Arent the judges basically deciding the placing in the pre-judging?

[@Tomn8er]

If they are then the scorecards need to reflect that. Because points-wise the weighting is the same.

[@patecar20]

Considering all the backlash the judges have gotten for not rewarding conditioning they may have had to reevaluate what is a winning physique. I also dont think it was a good thing for a lot of the 212 guys to show up off, considering how the division is honestly in danger of being axed.

[@linolozano3567]

Yesi acompletly agree with you, Derek L is definetely bigger in arms and maybe pecs, no talking about legs and as you said yes: in the most muscular you get to notice the differnece, if you could enlarge on the matter of pre judgings, since I understood what you showed at the beginning regarding the marks at both stages, however I wanna know what happenned, Great commentaries and whatever video you have of the prejudging pass it through, Thanks a lot!

[@markgreenspon]

It reminded me of the year Dexter won the O over Jay. They, the judges, went for the shredded guy, rather than the bigger guy. It’s as simple as that. Derek needs to come in shredded, ready to defeat anyone in any condition. He didn’t

[@zeppafloyd]

Well, you make some valid points. The judges only changed 2 scores according to what you have on the screen here. Who knows maybe their minds were made up by then. Judging is not easy. I did it for the NPC in Florida. Those of us who could not be there at the Olympia have only whats posted online to go by. Sure, the quality of digital video and photo is very telling but it still isn't a replacement for seeing it with your own eyes. Good video. Thanks.

[@jakekelly6770]

I was thinking the same thing. he fucked up pre judging for sure, but everybody seems to be pretending he didnt come in sharper for finals, and his size and structure should count for something.

[@ChinkRoy]

Will you do an analysis of classic physique? Also cant wait for your video on the mens open finals

[@Tomn8er]

Yeah either tonight or tomorrow

[@madmaks4496]

To me Derek's physique has 3 flaws which are undersized quads (compared to his upper body)and hams from the side and his delts in rear double look ugly af probably due to wrong use of oils. And he was still in much worse condition than Kamal.

[@aziz_alrumayyan6712]

Rip fahad al hazazi he competed in the 2019 Olympia in 212

[@dannorman1113]

Density, maturity, conditioning, detail, Kamal wins every pose.

[@dl_0002]

Everyone on RX Muscle was talking like Kamal was the greatest thing since sliced cheese, but I agree, in this callout Lunsford is definitely right in there.

[@Tomn8er]

RX Muscle crew are are all conditioning obsessed. They were glorifying Rhoden last year too despite Phil still kicking his ass in many poses.

[@MMAFan20]

I was there in person about 30 feet away and watching on HD on the main screen. You're waaaaaayyyyyyyy off. Kamal was incredibly better.

[@loganconnmusic7314]

Kamal got lucky that they gave him so much credit for his muscle maturity and density.

[@madmania5080]

Video makes Lunsford better than in person

[@Alex-qg6po]

I think Derek slightly beat Kamal slightly in the finals, but Kamal beat Derek handily at the prejudging. They couldn't give it to him after his lack luster shape in the prejudging.

[@uyandagxothiwe7325]

I'm not happy that Lunsford lost but I'm happy that the judges are looking past the internet hype for the Lunsford and Bumstead types

[@jirayasenseii3942]

Kamal had better condition, but Derek didnt have bad condition either. He was so much bigger... reminds a bit of why Curry beat Hadi

[@MohammedBASIM97]

The quality of video dont give enough details about how kamal was dry ( check FHd pictures) you will see the big different in condition ... no comparison in quads

[@thecodetoad6098]

Kamal's conditioning was too much to overcome with Derek's in that condition. I agree with the sentiment that the scores shouldn't have been the same. Kamal staying 7-7 is fine to me but Derek should've been like 10-8/7 which would still place him in 2nd but much closer.

[@sebbyh9764]

What you reckon about Hidetada coming in 8th?

[@philimonserbetsoglou7620]

I don't actually like Derek's back double bicep. Although he has size in his back, the tie in between his lower back and mid/upper back is messy. You also don't see calves or a great bicep peak.

[@mr.winner6187]

Lumsferd holds much water than others that’s the story If you cannot make your body dry you didn’t deserve to be Mr Olympia

[@Gbonejohn1974]

6:37 sorry i dont know him but how the fuck is the guy on the right 212 ? he looks enormous

[@bobbystillz222]

It wasn’t a screw job. It’s a matter of preference. They went with condition over size. But you’re right Lunsford did look better at the night show. Correct me if I’m wrong but they start over point wise for the night show right? So I would have Lunsford winning by a little bit especially from the back shots.

[@IfbbProRolandcHazard]

It was Kamal's day. Derek left the door open and Kamal just walked right in. It appears the judges are rewarding conditioning more than just plain size.

[@seanmurphy6136]

Classic physique finals comparison?

[@jayme420]

Kamal looked better he deserved it

[@ahmedalbujdidi1044]

He did it because it is a matter of mascular consistency

[@claymac7895]

Lunsford just peaked for the wrong part of the show. I think guys are afraid of peaking too early and then going backwards into the finals, so they aren’t up to 100% yet in the prejudging and that’s really where the contest is decided. Next year they just need to start filling him up a few hours sooner and he should be untouchable.

[@libyaneastcoast1]

Well like or not kamal is 212 mr.O ((by far))

[@amermostafa9471]

Kamal is far better

[@dogs4homeprotection104]

Derek sure did improve in the night show

[@Tyler1330]

Derek totally improved agreed. He might have been too far behind from the pre-judging, even if the weird scoring doesn't reflect that. IMO the judges probably had their decision made up unless Kamal lost all his conditioning-which he did softened up a touch (but not much). He was so razor sharp in the pre-judging when Lunsford was noticeably soft.

[@Doppe1ganger]

Derek sure was getting better and better every minute, and arguably beating Kamal in certain poses. But you must be blind if you think he won the show over Kamal final or not, Kamal was twice as ripped dude.

[@the_1ce_1s_n1ce]

ab and thigh is the new back double bi

[@MellowDTV]

Yeahh nahh issa well deserved win for kamal, details and conditioning 10000% on point. Derek has the same problem like last year, holding water on his upper section, woulda put him 3rd and shaun on 2nd.

[@pietervanderlinde2871]

Everyone knows that MOST of the scoring happens in the prejudging. You can't come in completely off in the morning and then just show up for the evening and still win. Especially when your competition are tight from start to finish. It's not lazy judging. If you want to be the best in the world you need to show up your best from start to finish.

[@CREEBANDZ510]

I’m not going to lie, Kamal looked better and deserved the W here. He might not be as wide as Derek or have as much mass as him but he definitely looks more conditioned than Derek as you can literally see every single muscle fiber on his entire body. He also has great symmetry and proportions. So does Derek but I think the main thing that held Derek back was his lack of conditioning. The judges don’t just base everything on size. Just because Derek is bigger doesn’t mean he looked better and I think that’s what you might not be understanding.

[@Translucentism]

tbh, idegaf about 212 and have no preference for either bodybuilder, but Kamal just looks better on this day. Looks like a deserved win to me.

[@jonathangomez5141]

I tend to agree with most of your opinions, even the controversial ones. Here’s why I disagree with this one. I feel that Kamals conditioning blew Lunsford out of the water. He looked like he was guest posing in the prejudging and shouldn’t even of been second he was so off. He did get way better in the finals but still wasn’t even close to kamals. His shape is the only thing that carried him to second place. If somehow Derek showed up in the same condition as kamal in the finals, there would be no question about it, Derek beats kamal 100% of the time. There’s nothing kamal can do to beat Derek in the same condition. As soon as Derek puts it together and finds his groove he will be unstoppable in the 212 and even in the open. With added size, muscle maturity, razor sharp conditioning Derek is a future Mr. Olympia for sure!

[@anas-oz6xx]

It all came down to muscle maturity even if derek was conditioned he doesnt have that much separation. Kamal deserved to win it in my opinion.

[@AFKAwesome]

I think they gave kamal the side tricep and abs and thighs. Reminds me of jay vs phil in 2010 where phil beat jay in most of the poses but lost because Jay came in better than 2009. Hopefully derek wont be too bitter and change things up for next year since somethings not working out rn

[@xoxolycadaniel8574]

Man, ahmad has the best structure in my opinion, muscle fullness, best genes, why the hell he doesn t win this olympia...

[@sethbagalman2364]

Derek significantly improved from prejudging, but not enough to make up the difference. The issue here was muscle maturity. Kamal is a Lybian / UK version of Dexter Jackson. As long as Derek stays healthy and injury free, he will dominate the division in a year or two. He must come in sliced & diced to win though.

[@darkook8472]

kamal back was insane

[@glennperlman5051]

I agree with your assessment 100% in the prejudging kamal looked even sharper and Derek looked way softer but even in prejudging certain poses like front lay spread rear lat spread and front double bicep Derek looked like a different weight class in the night show I also thought Derek looked superior to Kamal I was shocked when they gave Derek 2nd

[@hasankaba2276]

Kamal won of reason of his condition and classic lines with hard earned real muscles

[@tixodioktisdeviant46]

I agree that the the score cards were off in the finals. But as Phil used to say, if you blow them out of the water in the prejudging, you do not really have to do that much in the finals. Honestly Derek was too soft in the prejudging, you could even argue soft enouogh for third place, making it an uphill battle for him to erase that image from the judges memory.

[@Polandsyndromebodybuilding]

The head Judge is here

[@ShervinZ]

Who are the JUDGES?

[@Tomn8er]

Steve Weinberger is the head judge and the rest are a mystery lol. They don't even list their names.

[@Irkkan]

They give point to posing routine too right? Good posing routine will help u to place higher too i guess.

[@profirhuma]

Kamal has it all for the overall details and cuts. Period

[@crazytrain502]

You're insane if you think Derek should have won... you couldn't even see his abs and he was completely covered in a film of water.

[@sympaticoo1]

You obviously was not watching live . Derek was soft and watery even in the finals . Was breaking lots of sweats in the finals which only proves he was still holding water .kamal was the clear winner

[@bigbannyblom3562]

Didn’t the midgets flex and Jose Raymond comped this year ??

[@Abood-bboy]

No flex moved to open he will compete 2020. Jose retired

[@bigbannyblom3562]

Abdullah Nidal why he retired?

[@Abood-bboy]

@@bigbannyblom3562 I don't know exactly why. But he is old bro

[@madiseggsurpriseadventures5174]

It's like when they gave Danny Hester the first classic physique title

[@johnathanb.i3487]

Imagine if Hadi was here just dominating everyone .Derek wasn't even close so if he ain't 100 percent he ain't deserve this

[@surayatimol2385]

First and foremost first impression are massive at the olympia. Ramy finals package last season was extraordinary in terms of his transformation from prejudging,personally felt he was the best physique at the finals,however rightfully so you reward consistentcy. Secondary whilst derricks was improved in the finals,he was still holding abit of water,it was very noticeable when the camera closed in on that last Ab and thigh,you even mentioned derrick was abit smooth.He was and next to a crisp conditioned guy,it exposes him,similar to how phil who overall has a "more olympia worthy" physique imo was exposed by the tiny waisted of Rhoden. Really happy with the result,crisp conditioning has to be more of the focus going forward and it seems like they moving that way

[@bestcryptoearningsites7149]

My personal take on this: Lunsford conditioning was too messed on the prejudging, he should have been 3rd or 4th there. Yes, in the finals he nailed it and dryed a lot and i see him edging elgargni by a little bit. But Elgargni victory is well deserved, he was more consistent. I follow bodybuilding since the reign of Lee Haney and I ve been suscribed to your channel since you were around 5k followers. Many times i saw things different from you but nevertheless i respect your points of view and your knowledge about the subject. And to this day i think this is the best bodybuilding related channel on youtube. What Im trying to say is: dont let the trolls get to you like the last year. Being the largest contest Olympia attracts the view of a lot of people not familiarized with the sport who think they are entitled to their absolute truth. And the online bodybuilding comunity in general tends to bandwagon behind certain topics overreacting their importance, now this divas are: vacuum posing and conditioning. Im glad conditioning is on the top spot of the qualities again but it is not EVERYTHING. Sorry for the bad english, is not my native tongue. Greetings Tom and thank you for your work, many of us appreciate it.

[@Tomn8er]

Well put man. Looks like I took an L on this video but wouldn't change a single thing I said - still give him every pose here except AaT and ST, maybe FLS as well. I only claimed Lunsford should've beat Kamal in the Finals but people just read the title and have no attention span for nuance. Also just like last year when I thought Phil was winning and idiots go "you don't know anything about bodybuilding, good thing you're not a judge!" those same idiots don't understand how to read scorecards and realize a couple of the professional judges actually agree with me. The sport is so subjective and that's unavoidable to a large extent, but at the end of the day the biggest problem is the non-transparent judging process which leaves way more up to personal interpretation than there outta be.

[@bestcryptoearningsites7149]

@@Tomn8er Last year Mr.O Open Class is a prime example of this "bandwagon" thing i said. Everyone was like: "Shawn Rhoden is the second coming of Arnold". When in fact he had flaring weaknesses: his triceps are virtually non existent and he had the worst back of the 4 bodybuilders in the top call out. In my book he is one of the weakest Mr.O ever along with Cris Dickerson. And dont get me wrong, im not by any strech a Phil Heath fanboy, i think his protuding gut the last years was a disgrace to the sport and to top that his awful personality made him a bad ambassador.

[@samraizshoaib585]

@@bestcryptoearningsites7149 Arnold had way more flaws than Rhoden.

[@Bestfeelingsever]

I guess you need to study bodybuilding, only care about the thickness which is not in this devision , this 212 man, not the open

[@herculssatan5883]

Abdul Gargni what are you on about? Thickness is always important. And don’t just tell someone to “study bodybuilding” when they have a different opinion to you

[@kazemshehadeh805]

Lunsford sucked. Deserved win. No more comments.