Top reasons why electric vehicles cannot tow long distances - explained

[@kathyl67]

Well explained video Robert. I like how you break everything down and provide us with rational calculations :)

[@HardstylePete]

This problem is only further compounded when the EV is actually setup for Australian offroad conditions. Even the F150 Lightning has a very low front air dam to improve efficiency and more road focused tyres. Add a 2inch lift, larger mud tyres and a bull bar then the energy requirements for the EV skyrocket. Plugin hybrids would be the most suitable transition technology for the majority of people. Much cheaper purchase price, low running costs for city usage but with the ability to burn fuel for the longer trips when required and tow without issues.

[@Βόρειο_Σέλας]

Great video and comparison. Your point 4 in your summary says it all. I have been involved in design and installation of EV chargers and this is going to be the biggest issue here in Australia. Firstly EV chargers are notoriously unreliable (manufacturers of chargers still have a long way to perfect the tech), second the power costs are going north at a high rate, thirdly they are slow to charge and will be long queues for charging. In UK they are actually getting rid off their evs and going back to ice cars due to range, lack of charging infrastructure and long queues. Lastly, the greens are shutting down all base load power stations and they think that wind and solar will provide that. Very early days yet for EVs, give it around 10 years. I am holding on to my diesel 4wd. Cheers

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, the EV chargers are unreliable as they are poorly maintained. Many tales of chargers being out of action for months, sadly. Clearly they don't generate sufficient revenue to warrant much attention.

[@Βόρειο_Σέλας]

@@L2SFBC Agree, this is one reason but there are reliability issues as well.

[@MiniLuv-1984]

Wellsaid, clear, simple, yet precise. Thanks Robert.

[@L2SFBC]

Very welcome please share :-)

[@ianmac2963]

EXCELLENT - many EV owners ignore the FACTS re remote off road trips towing - thanks mate :)

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks Ian, please share! Yes I have noted your point often in forums :-)

[@kadmow]

lol, well in practice it will be at their peril. Hard to ignore present and imminent danger at the last. jk.

[@doctor_who1]

you'll need to add some regen energy back into the EV in relevant situations and the battery need is slightly lower, but then we haven't counted air cond heating, winter, summer, wet ground, etc so probably ok as it is

[@MotoBreno]

Hey Robert, love your stuff - Tkx for all your efforts. Hey @2:20, "EV Energy Density problem" slide, I'd love to see the "km per kg of vehicle (total/combined) mass" as an offset to "km per kg of just battery or fuel" added to the bottom line. - Kona and F150 being great samples since the form is near identical bar fuel cell and drivetrain. 👍

[@L2SFBC]

Ah yes, good point - but I felt per energy unit was better. While Kona and F-150 are identical save powertrain, this does a disserve somewhat to the EVs as neither are ground-up EV designs which may be even more efficient. However, I think the comparison is still valid.

[@BrockMakesVideosSometimes]

I got your next experiment: Get that ICE and EV truck from the same model. Drive the ICE towing the EV behind it. Go til the tank is empty and then switch, towing the ICE and driving the EV. Either do an out and back or on a track. That would be a fair comparison of distance with the same wind resistance and weight.

[@L2SFBC]

well, it'd be interesting!

[@Mike_Costello]

Excellent. I think still, one of the hardest things for people to adapt their thinking to is that charging is not like refilling a petrol tank. And that is also part of the problem. Sometimes it's better to plan a rout so you get down to 20% because the charger will fast charge to get you back to 80. But if you charge from 55% the car may regulate you to a slower charge rate to keep temps down. So you spend maybe the same time only adding 30% rather than adding 50%. And if you can charge at home then there is no need to fully charge at an expensive (comparatively) fast charger to get a full battery. You may just need to charge enough to get on your way and then plug it in once home for the low or no cost while getting on with the rest of your day. There may be a video solely on how to get your head around charging and why the flexibility has huge advantages. The more people understand the concept and nuances of charging and even it's limitations, the better.

[@L2SFBC]

An excellent point, Mike, EV operation really does require a mindset shift. In many ways it is more convinient that ICE fuelling. Knowing charge rates, distances, reserves etc is quite an art, as is not getting caught out by hills and wind. And there is also managing the battery's health!

[@Mike_Costello]

@@L2SFBC I know that Tesla does (or used to) calculate topography if you use the in car rout and charge stop planning maps. That should take care of the hills and factor back in higher use and regeneration. At least in the US delivered cars. Wind, not so much.

[@L2SFBC]

Tesla does, others don't...

[@elliotkane4443]

I think what you need to adapt your thinking to is that most people don't want to organize their entire life around their battery car.

[@MurrayWaldron]

Great video. Electric motors are here to stay. Their source of energy is the interesting space to watch. Caterpillar Inc are experimenting with Hydrogen Fuel Cells for long haul. If this trickles down to the 4×4 market, we could see long distance tourers & tow vehicles. Definitely an exciting time.

[@L2SFBC]

Great point!

[@PhillipGrobler]

If a EV has a 40-60kw battery on their own it would make sense to have an EV caravan where the caravan also has a 60kw battery and provides power back to the car. Once you arrive at your destination you also have almost unlimited power.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes a battery-powered caravan would be amazing offroad! However, with current tech it wouldn't quite solve the problem. I have examined the idea here: l2sfbc.com/why-powering-a-trailer-wont-be-the-real-answer-to-ev-towing-range/

[@grahamep8635]

Thank you for an excellent simplified explanation of the forces at work when towing. I recently purchased a new Toyota Prado (150 litre tank) after a lot of research, mainly on the prospect of the 2024 new model having a hybrid option (probably with a 2.4 turbo petrol). Thinking it might be possible to have the best of both worlds (good range, remote area safety from petrol and great towing and economy from electric), I did a research deep dive on hybrids for long distance and towing. My conclusion was that long distance and/or towing

[@grahamep8635]

Continued....is not a happy place for hybrids. With their charging coming from regen braking, long distance nonbraking driving will quickly deplete their relatively small battery and most driving will be on the (typically) smaller ICE and thus poorer

[@grahamep8635]

Fuel economy than the diesel. Having said all that, will be carefully reading the early reviews of the coming Landcruiser hybrids. Hope my thinking is wrong...would love to have that smooth electric get up and GO!

[@L2SFBC]

You're correct re hybrids, they only work in stop/start conditions when they can harvest energy during decleration. In cruise such as towing then they are worse than non-hybrids, and in the case of tow/4x4, the electric motor and battery just uses up valuable storage room and payload. EVs are also at a disadvantage in cruise compared to ICE as they cannot regen either. In my other video I showed that the caravan prevented regen downhill on a freeway as there was so much drag.

[@martindeporres9251]

Great comparison figures and explanations thank you. Can you do a comparison of the 2024 EV9 Gtline towing please. Australia could use a self propelled electric caravan with as much thought and design going into drag co-efficiency. I am buying an EV9 and a light euro van to tow and expect range to be halved. If you cant plan a trip and charge within 200 klms then we have a problem in Australia. Regional Victoria is resisting infrastructure and dealerships here are refusing to service, stock, and sell the full range of EV's. The resistance to ev's is so noticeable I wish I understood the lack of manufacturers availability in Australia. I actually just want a UTE with range or a van with range. Like Rivian and all the endless concept cars but its soo far away and there are now NO incentives to buy EV's over the sal sac cap. Criteria was to tow a small caravan, carry 4 dogs, V2L ,V2Grid, V2home.

[@L2SFBC]

I do plan to do some work with the EV9 in 2024. 200km? That's nothing, I would never expect to have chargers every 200km as I wouldn't want to stop that often, that's barely two hours.

[@Ted...youtubee]

As an aside. Remember when there was a truck road tax. As i recall, theory was, heavy trucks caused more road wearNtear requiring higher road maintenance costs. If correct, this would mean if everyone (ok, let's say 50%) that's heaps of faster wear on roads, causing an increase in repair costs. Then THE TYRES. Will "THE SAME TYPE/BRAND " tyres, wear more quickly on an EV compared to lighter petrol vehicle?

[@L2SFBC]

Tyre and road wear is proportional to weight, yes, so heavier cars will all else being equal wear tyres more quickly. However, it isn't linear and wouldn't be anything like 50%. We've managed to cope with cars getting not only much heavier but faster and more numerous over the last 50 years, so I don't think the extra weight of EVs (or their occupants, humans are getting heavier over time) is a concern. EV tyres are different to ICE tyres for lots of reasons including noise, load design and rolling resistance optimisation.

[@MotoBreno]

@@L2SFBC Didnt early Prius's have to run Light Truck construction tyres? 😆

[@jebw]

I was at a car racetrack on the weekend and there was not one EV charging station.

[@L2SFBC]

Was there a three-phase outlet? Bet there was. That'll do, and would give a pretty decent charge from say 0730 to 1700. However, that may not be enough to get a 130kWh battery from say 15% to 100%. Would be ok for a smaller car and battery.

[@MotoBreno]

@@L2SFBC Off topic & barely relevant, however I was Roll Racing at Tailem Bend last weekend. Soooo entertaining to see "Electric Jesus's" product smoked by several street legal tuned petrol vehicles, and annihilated by pro vehicles. (I have no idea if the Tesla was stock or unlocked)

[@Kevin-dp1vy]

@@L2SFBC Over here in the UK Silverstone race circuit has a total of 2 EV chargers, putting out 4 KW. The circuit can accommodate 150,000 fans so not much cahnce of cahrging your tow vehicle for 12 hours then. Oh and they cost $1.27 per kw.

[@davidhastings7714]

Time = money, who wants to wait in a car park while your battery charges. Also 800kgs heavier do you pay for that in your rego?

[@L2SFBC]

See my video where I actually charged that car in a carpark! kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4LNmJyFecZ2esk

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Electric is great and all but yet another downside is that the vehicle doesn’t get any lighter as more energy is consumed. Unlike in an ICE vehicle which as fuel is used, gets a little lighter as you go. Plus in that EV vs Diesel towing comparison you say 638MJ of energy required. That was how much the lighter ICE needed. The EV is heavier so it will actually need MORE than 638MJ of energy. Same with the 593MJ comparison. You’d need more for the heavier EV. So even your numbers are under-rated.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, I did note that but made it simpler

[@anbu999]

Will gearbox solve this problem? I mean EV has immediate torque with gearbox it doesn't have to spin too high for too long.

[@L2SFBC]

No, a gearbox will not overcome the inherent energy density problem. EVs don't really need gearboxes because of the very flat torque curve starting from 0 rpm.

[@PAGANONYMOUS]

What if the trailer had a generator designed to charge the battery of the EV?

[@L2SFBC]

If the trailer can self drive that would help a huge deal!

[@robbyg3989]

Lithium yields from the current mining / processing procedures, seem to also be a limiting factor. EVs with current battery compositions, cannot easily scale to the level that is needed for a direct replacement of ICE. I believe General Motors recognized this by recently investing nearly a $billion into the development of their new V8 motor. Also Toyota's all electric choices are sparse, likely the outgoing CEO recognized these barriers. While I believe EVs have a definite use case and can be ideal for some, the inconvenient truths, of which there are many, can only go unaddressed for so long.

[@L2SFBC]

I didn't even begin to address the wider manufacturing and supply-chain concerns for cars! Maybe another time...

[@robbyg3989]

@@L2SFBC Great work as usual Robert! I appreciate how you process information and deliver it concisely ie energy density. Seems ICE powered vehicles could also benefit from the aerodynamic enhancements afforded to EV's.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes ICE could definitely benefit from EV-style aero. However, there is a tradeoff. The most aerodynamically efficient shape is a teardrop, which is impractical. The most practical shape is a box, which is not low-drag. So there's one tradeoff for starters. Also, ICE vehciles must consider the size of the motor which is less of a problem for EVs. The Kluger/Model X I showed is an example. Thank you for the compliment, please share the video :-)

[@andrewahern3730]

I just want a Rivian (style suspension and drivetrain) with a compact diesel range extender. Oh and people to stop saying EVs are pointless by testing in conditions they’re not designed for (not that I think that’s what you’re doing but I think some viewers might).

[@L2SFBC]

would be nice!

[@dtnicholls1]

Well, a litre of petrol contains about 35Mj of energy. Multiply that by an efficiency of 20% for 7Mj actually used to move the vehicle. Assume a pretty incredible fuel economy for a modern petrol engine when towing a large load and say it uses 15L/100km, that gives you 105Mj per 100km travelled. Convert that to kWh and you get 29kwh per 100km. Let's say your car has quite a large battery at 60kwh and 100% conversion efficiency... You have 200km of range. The petrol, assuming a 75L tank has 500km. That's very in favour of the EV and it just doesn't stack up. Use a more realistic figure for fuel consumption to work out the energy required and the EV range gets worse. Use an efficiency of less than 100% for the EV and it gets worse. EVs are absolutely fantastic for the market segment they're intended for. They aren't the panacea of the automotive industry. Frankly, it's not really fair to say "but an EV can't tow". Neither can a 70s mini.

[@L2SFBC]

An EV can tow. Just not far. I spent the first couple of minutes of the this video and the more detailed one saying how good they are, and they are! But...range...

[@dtnicholls1]

@@L2SFBC Kinda. 6x4 to the local dump type stuff. How many are rated for an 8x5 at 2t though? Let alone some of the monster caravans people drag around. It's more afterthought than intentionally built for it. There's nothing inherently wrong with the powertrain, it's arguably a better platform for it, but the chassis and suspension just isn't designed for putting a heavy trailer on there and dragging it around every day. A better comparison might be a Camry or Cerato. You can put a towbar on them for the trip to the dump, but they're intended to be a passenger vehicle. It's basically the marketing department telling engineering that it has to have one so they put it on there even though it's going to be crap.

[@waynehobbs5175]

So if the EV was charged at the common rate of 60c for say a 150kw charger the cost would equal diesel but take 15 times longer to charge tgan to fill the diesel tank. The diesel tug will cost half the price of the electric. The LDV has both and pricing is $45k vs $90k. The electric is $700 more a year to insure. If both were worth 60% at 5 years old the diesel depreciates $18k, the electric $36k That difference and the insurance works out to $22000 over 5 years. 5 years diesel at $2.09 and 10l/100km 14100km Australian annual average is $14800 total 5 year fuel. So even with free electricity you lose with an EV ute vs a diesel ute.

[@L2SFBC]

You omitted servicing costs, but fundamentally yes the EV ute isn't cost-effectice. And this is why I say that, as of now, the sums don't work for EVs to be cost effective for the average Australian. I've done them again and again over the years and it's getting better, but not there yet as you accurately summarised. The pro-EV people will talk about edge cases where it does make sense and those cases exist, but it doesn't take away from the fact that EVs are expensive. The anti-EV people say it's too expensive but ignore the trend towards parity and EV advantage.

[@waynehobbs5175]

@@L2SFBC Your report was excellent thanks and yes you absolutely said (paraphrased) that EVs won't make financial sense for most users over a 5 year ownership period. I thoroughly trust your channel content for being objective, helpful and putting safety first. You are a legend and I am glad you are not affected in your content by $ponsorship which is why it is respected by many. Thanks for replying Robert.

[@SoloRenegade]

but WHY is drag more important? If you had 2 identical cars, same body, same drag coefficients, why does the electric do worse? is it not about weight? why can't the electric motor move the higher drag bodies like ICE can?

[@L2SFBC]

The point is that the EV body is *not* the same as the ICE body. That's where a lot of the difference comes from. Now if we take your scenario and have tow identical bodies but with different motors, then the proportional drag effect is the same. However, then we come to whether an ICE or electric engine is more efficient in whatever scenario. The EV would definitely win at lower stop/start speeds, not so sure about higher speeds.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@L2SFBC but that's the whole question. In an apples to apples drag comparison, why are EVs dropping range so aggressively when towing? Lets say both the ICE and EV version of the same vehicle had a drag coefficient of 0.4, and they towed the same trailer, how much would they lose in range? the fact the EV drops so much with less total drag to overcome than the ICE equivalent tells me the EV is going to do even Worse with more total drag. And that means that an EV with comparable drag to its ICE counterpart is going to get even less range than it already is by comparison. So why is this? if the drag is 100% the same for EV and ICE, then the difference lies in one of 2 things. Either the weight Does matter (and it most certainly does), and/or the electric motor performs worse under additional (increasing) Load than an internal combustion engine. The motor drops off faster than ICE even if it is more energy efficient and high torque. Why else would the EV drop off so dramatically? and being more energy efficient doesn't matter if your energy density is so low as to be impractical.

[@L2SFBC]

OK so if this is the question: "Lets say both the ICE and EV version of the same vehicle had a drag coefficient of 0.4, and they towed the same trailer, how much would they lose in range?" I don't know for sure. I've not done that test. I would however be certain that the % loss in range would be more equal. So for example say the F-150 EV had a range of 500km, with tow 250km. Then we put a diesel F150 body on it, and range drops to 400, with tow 220km. That's the sort of result I'd expect to see, based off drag. The weight does matter but not really in cruise. Then we come to efficiency in cruise and this I cannot yet answer. There would be a difference, like diesel does better with increasing load than petrol.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@L2SFBC basically you're saying that the baseline of EVs are even worse, if not for their improved aerodynamics, and so there would be less drop off from the trailer relative to that worse baseline. But because they're trying so hard to make them practical by making them efficient enough to be halfway practical, their loss in range due to towing merely reflects their True range compared to ICE had they had the same body as the ICE vehicle.

[@L2SFBC]

Basically yes. It comes back to energy density, or lack thereof.

[@bobbyr8071]

ICE vehicles are very inefficient compared to EVs. U get only 20-25 percent of real work out of all that fuel that u pay for. Rest goes up in smoke and heat.

[@patroln48]

ICEs are still being produced, so wouldn't say it's the end of them too soon. They may have reached their final peak, yes. It is exciting to see the advancements of EVs, but for a lot of people, the better quality EVs won't make financial sense and will still be unattainable/ unaffordable. The average car on the street is still an ICE and will probably be for some years to come.

[@MiniLuv-1984]

I'd counter that horses are still being reared but I don't think anyone would say we are still in the age of horse and cart. Just consider the average lifecycle of a car - 10 - 20 years and the question is, how many such lifecycles will it take to reduce the population of ICE so that we can call it EV dominated? It will take a few decades...as it did with migration from horse and cart to the horseless carriage.

[@patroln48]

@@MiniLuv-1984 The irony here is that EVs were invented back when the horse and cart were the main source of transportation and unfortunately due to financial considerations, petrol became the choice of energy for the public. Henry Ford never intended his vehicles to run on petrol. Sad, because now it seems a race to save the planet, but at least things are moving quickly. But as it was then, so it seems now, finances and convenience will play a big part. Once prices come down and stabilise, travel ranges increase (because we're so use to great petrol mileage), charging times improve, EVs will dominate sooner rather than later.

[@L2SFBC]

It's an interesting question - what if petrol didn't exist? We'd have used electrcirty from the start, and just got used to whatever EVs could do. In the same way, ICE cars are limited...but we grew up with the limitations so we don't recognise them. We can't refuel at home. They emit lots of noxious fumes. Only 30% of the energy put in goes towards propulsion, and that's not even accounting for losses in getting it to the point where it goes into the car. They are noisy, and require complex gearing which takes a lot of maintenance and so on. We accept all that as normal, because it is normal to us. EVs are demonstrably better in all aspects such as those, but not yet ready to propel all the world's vehicles.

[@patroln48]

@@L2SFBC Yes that's understood... but we'll have to put up with them for some years to come. Besides this, I'm sure all the people who have recently purchased an ICE or are still driving an ICE aren't going to want to be demonized, including alot of the 4wd community who still want their V8,'s Toyota's, Patrols etc. Besides most people who now drive EVs, once drove ICEs and contributed to this smelly world.

[@patroln48]

​@@L2SFBC Sorry Robert, do you remember when they developed EVs in the early 90s that were ready for commercialisation? The documentary “Who Killed The Electric Car?” showed the “powers that be”, hand-in-hand with the petroleum companies (of course), killing off the whole idea. People were ready to purchase them back then and the world would have had all these issues sorted out by now. It's a shame, but at least things are moving fairly quickly these days.

[@daveblock4061]

It has been shown on every VLOG as of now EVs are only good at hauling air.

[@L2SFBC]

well, they'll never replace your Elise Series 2 Dave, at least not in my view :-)

[@daveblock4061]

Nor your S3!