Wanna Know Exactly What Level Of Melee You're On?

How does Spark make the meme tweets so accurate...
Watch Live on Twitch: / tophbbq
Twitter: / toph_bbq
Outro: • Okami - The Tribe Of H...
Edited by: Adineri :)
Today, Toph gives his thoughts on the fabled Spark, the Melee Sheik main, tweet that was an accidental accurate meme. This is Spark's tweet explained. The levels of Super Smash Bros. Melee is absolutely insane... Melee is such a beautiful accident. #tophbbq

[@FTW360Gaming]

I think it was Soonsay who said that getting tech chased by Falcon feels like getting fucked up by a linebacker whereas getting tech chased by Sheik feels like a sniveling nerd saying “I got you!!!” Lmao Both aspects of those characters are pretty similar IMO but I think that’s why people may think sheik is lame for that

[@shiina4861]

LOOOL

[@lagalil]

Such a backward statement lol

[@mlalbaitero]

Clearly sexism

[@timnguyen1374]

"sniveling nerd" im fucking cackling

[@kkokay4]

Id much rather get tech chased by falcon for sure. At least he kills you quickly. Gettting tech chased by Sheik takes forever and youre just not even playing the game while she does it

[@narwhalz02]

Nobody calls my falcon lame when I unnecessarily moonwalk in neutral into getting combo to deathed for the third time 😎

[@DesTr069]

Goated comment 👌👌👌

[@kaiiboraka]

taunt to get bodied is a true combo don'tcha know

[@mitchellm2208]

I can literally see this comment happening in my head rn and it's making me laugh so hard

[@pooperdooper3576]

True falcon main

[@benferrisinverts4198]

Its hard to get mad at cpt falcon lmao

[@adamshelby9155]

i think it's hard for ppl to see falcon as lame cuz he's aesthetically absolutely 100% cool as hell. but when you see the game as silent wireframes playing high-speed chess described entirely by the green code of the matrix (as do all top players), perhaps it's more obvious. after sitting in zazen meditation for several hours towards the end of a weeks-long fermented juice cleanse, i can almost convince myself i think falcon is lame ... and then it's gone. the fleeting experience of an opened soul, dormant til another day. go in peace, ye falcon-admirers.

[@sam.lipchutz]

That and I really like the current top 3 falcon mains personalities and they’re really fun to watch

[@adamshelby9155]

right well yes also that

[@Emperorerror]

lmfao

[@FiveStringC]

at some point I just realized doing good things with any character will annoy your opponent

[@_Majunior]

pretty much. at this point I hate but like every character simultaneously

[@pierreaoun9600]

@@_Majunior I think this is everyone's relationship with their favorite game to be fair

[@SirTipsi]

I usually get annoyed when either 1 of 2 things happen. 1. I can't do shit. 2. I can't combo your more than 2 moves. Some characters are just better at not allowing me to do shit (sheik chain grab, icies wobbling) and other characters you just can't combo (yoshi, luigi). But if the opponent is good enough to 0-death you with another non-free char, then yeah that annoys me as well lmao

[@Coolbeans554]

@@SirTipsi I really only get annoyed when my opponent plays as non interactive as possible, without a lead. Yes of course don’t approach with a lead make your opponent take risks makes 100% sense and is a legit strategy. But the people on netplay go down 2 stocks then just camp the ledge or run away trying to run the clock out and I’m like lol out of all the interactive options you have to choose from you choose to play a single player game without a lead

[@SirTipsi]

@@Coolbeans554 that doesn't typically annoy me since I play pretty aggressive and if someone keeps camping it becomes predictable and I can either mix up my dash dance and whiff punish, or overshoot depending on their habits. Just not being able to play is the worst imo, unless it's good melee and we take turns destroying each other. Then it's cool.

[@Lagoa_real]

If everyone’s lame, THEN NO ONE IS LAME

[@theinktician]

a man of culture?

[@dotsmike8937]

what if i call everyone i play lame to hide the fact that i can barely hold the controller, think i need a new tier of enlightenment

[@marsieg8394]

Boi what 💀

[@winniebobinnie34]

alas, we've all been indoctrinated to think falcon is cool from the very beginning

[@artemis-kinkyboikirby5539]

Falcon players eat glue

[@Hugo_Prolovski]

True

[@Sushigh0st]

I think falcon gets a rep for not being lame because he is literally the easiest character to make look cool on top of being flashy even when played in a lame way. I think the entire meme can be encompassed be "optimization is lame"

[@kirbymontrey3897]

Falcon would be pretty damn cool if he wasn't op

[@Sushigh0st]

@@kirbymontrey3897 he literally wins like zero top tier matchips

[@sebastianscouras8183]

For Luigi players there is definitely a second tier of “peach is lame” and I think this is best highlighted by Kurv v Light at Genesis 7

[@TheSpaceOpera]

I think it’s because of the rise of “defensive” Falcon play at top level. Reaction tech chases and aerials that wall you out perhaps come across as lame to those top players who want a more aggressive match

[@icegod4849]

Its also a little bit because of knee. Sweetspotted knee FUCKS and sourspotted knee combos into other shit so knee can be thrown in anywhere. I don't share this sentiment but I hear this complaint a lot

[@jakelarson9830]

As a marth main, I feel like there are a few more layers of "marth is lame" missing. I've seen it from low level players that get hit by 100 uptilts, mid level players who feel walled out by the dash dancing, fair walls, and dtilt and then die to a stray hit, to leffen and cody. Honestly, I see their arguments....which is why I play marth.

[@zane4535]

Can't wait for the day when toph catches mang0 being smart in 4k

[@megadunsparce3672]

The last layer of the meme should’ve been “Melee is lame”

[@austinbradshaw5021]

@@juangutierrez673 yo, best comment! that freaking slaps, asif hes freaking ascended our preception of him. the mandelbrot effect will take place rendering us all oblivious to armadas exestence. and become one with the god hand.

[@hyun2989]

i think i get it, at highest levels of the game, falcon fishes hardcore for dair/grab/(sometimes raptor boost) over and over which is not necessarily a bad thing, top marths fish for grabs too, but like, falcon is generally way more resilient to dying and with community perception that falcon is hype, i can see how it'd annoy top players that falcon has this community privilege

[@Yvs8962]

I said in another comment that I think the real icing on the cake that makes me hate Falcon is the community culture around him where everything he does is "hype" when it absolutely isnt, and he’s still considered the “cool character” even when hes hard camping and playing like a total weenie.

[@TurbinationE]

@@Yvs8962 Maybe in the past, but if you read through the comments, you'll see a ton of noobs complaining about Falcon. Like literally the comment below this one is saying that Falcon is lame LOL

[@JaboodyEnthusiast]

Theres only one thing preventing me from believing the last one: Watching falcon run across the stage and accelerate like he's in a sonic game when he jumps at full speed is hilarious enough for me to forgive his tech chase antics

[@gallowpole9455]

I've been playing Pokemon Smogon singles for longer than I've been playing Melee. I had to learn really fast the most vocal player are the bad players who think they are decent at the game. They will call top players bad for not using weird teams (even if they do, using regular mons) or wanting to ban a mon or an ability that's been strangling the high level meta.

[@affrything]

i love how you call the pocket monsters “mons”

[@Yvs8962]

Honestly I hate playing against basically the whole cast and think hella characters are lame, but the reason I play Melee is cuz I think playing as my character is the most fun thing I've ever done.

[@FloppyDiisk]

Spoken like a true fox main

[@vulblhotdiessfi]

Spoken like a true fox main

[@jamestaquino7726]

Spoken like a true fox main

[@Yvs8962]

You are all so toxic Im literally shaking

[@jakesmith9745]

Spoken like a true fox main

[@Killopotamus]

When a falcon aerial hits my tech option, just strap on a seatbelt for Mr Bones Wild Ride

[@PurplingYellow]

can't believe i just heard Toph call mango a nerd

[@calacatchy]

lowkey true

[@rainbowgg___]

as a sheik main it's unreal how accurate this is. I currently just graduated from the Marth/low tiers are lame and i'm working on my falco degree ;)

[@WyattHoldW]

Found myself absolutely cackling when I saw the meme on Twitter, now you’ve gone and made a video breaking it down all the way and I loved every second of it.

[@sinfinite7516]

Mango’s sweating bc detective Toph is onto him.

[@josephinefox9347]

Looking good for me, im the only one in my region that seems to believe falcon is lame. The skill will come later, this is what counts

[@kevwox]

Nice haircut Toph

[@Drwiggles69]

That meme is eerily accurate for the most part. Toph said if Spark wasn't a Shiek player, that there would/should be one more instance of marth. I agree, and I think that fits quite well right at the bottom. I wonder, though, if that's just where the community's currently focused thanks to Zain. Makes it feel most recent, and therefore the end of the progression, but maybe that's not right?

[@LANBobYonson]

It entirely depends on the player whether the character is lame or not. I have people on slippi sitting at ledge waiting to drill shine me off the stage or back throw or spike me or gimp me any way possible and I go into them with no strategy to avoid it anyway cuz I'm just playing for fun and I'm a gambling man. All characters are sick in melee. Players are lame, especially when they're BM despite beating a mid tier with a high tier which happens way too often lmao.

[@ividboy7616]

Idk about falcon ranking. Well the skill ranking for me with "falcon is lame" is lower because that's just self awareness, but I've seen a lot of slippi spacies rage quit when they get their tech read at 40 and die lately

[@WillyMacShow]

Mango is like goku from dragon ball z abridged. He’s a complete idiot... until you mention melee. Then he’s has all the answers to the universe

[@princessthud8785]

I think characters like ices, sheik, and falcon get different levels of hate is the time it takes from losing the stock to actually dying. Like it feels like it takes decades for a wobble to finish, but only a couple seconds for falcon to do a couple tech chases and some good guessies. Sheik downthrow is at the perfect tempo for the crowd to go "ayyee" and takes just long enough for commentators to either be like "damn this player should go for a read like upsmash" or "damn this player should've continued the chaingrab instead of going for a read like upsmash"

[@TurbinationE]

I see a ton of low-mid level players complain about Falcon nowadays. People will spam "stomp knee isn't cool" anytime they hear someone talking about Falcon or they'll call the character "down throw guess." I mean, the term "air wobbling" was literally made up to make fun of how amazing Falcon's up air chains are. Also, for what it's worth, parts of Falcon's kit are definitely lame, but same for every character.

[@TurbinationE]

Also, big agree on that "the only truly lame thing in Melee is non-interactive play". Nobody enjoys watching or playing a set that's 1 minute of neutral followed by 7 minutes of camping.

[@kobyichi]

been loving the content lately man! i'm from hawaii and once covid hit we held a few net play tournaments but i had a pretty hard time finding motivation to play. your videos are making me really want to get back into so thanks for that!

[@megaman7799]

The moment you realize every character is lame is the moment you achieve true enlightenment as a Smash player. This is true for all Smash games, not just Melee.

[@Shmicah1235]

So incredibly true. I play ZSS in Ultimate and while I think she's aesthetically the coolest character in the game with some dope moments, even I know that zair neutral, stun techchases, flipjump buries, and nair flipkick at 40% is lame and frustrating lmao

[@bjornsteintheeviscerator1033]

i think that the reason that falcon is considered "cooler" than the other characters is because he is one of the hardest hitters in the game, while also being fast and having good combos. from a player's perspective the tech chasing is pretty lame tho

[@bend6392]

imo the final level is "melee is lame". every player and character are equally capable of being cool as they are of being lame, the only question is why do the majority then choose to be lame? if there was a bunch of dirt bikers racing, they would simply go around the track as fast as possible. they're capable of doing tricks but the environment/objective doesnt reward that. If there was a “swag meter” that you could fill that did something OP, then every melee player would be cool because every character is already capable of playing in a cool way. The reason we dont play cool even though we could is because our environment/objective also doesnt reward it. No character is lame, melee is lame

[@verbosed]

I’m grateful that I don’t find anyone in this game lame and I love melee completely.

[@zonessbm]

that outro animation is sick

[@squidfather]

I think the reason "Capt. Falcon is lame" only occurs among high level players is because Capt. Falcon as a character requires a high level player to unlock the potential. As opposed to Marth(for example) who's advantages are apparent even at the low level of play: disjoint hitboxes, grab range, etc. There aren't any Falcons randomly doing what Wizzy does... and no one who isn't top 50 is gonna be whiny about losing to Wizzy. I actually got matched up w/ Wizzy on Slippi; I got destroyed, but he's way better than me, so my inclination isn't "oh Falcon is lame"

[@AnArmyOfFish]

I approve of Toph choosing to turn this single meme & surrounding conversation into a video Because it's a *really* good meme

[@ssbmwaddles]

Falcon lame makes so much sense, he’s sheik 2.0 but considered ‘harder to pilot’ but is allowed much freer mixup options with insanely good drift and Ariels

[@BBOYZERO]

alpharad calls that jump the “scrub double jump”. couldnt be more accurate

[@docbuckets5923]

Toph gotta say that your content has been amazing lately. Love hearing you just talk about melee and sharing ideas about the game.

[@renos654]

2:17 Thanks, dad.

[@Swagtildawn]

low tiers needs to be on this list twice, because I play lowtiers and people on slippi REFUSE to play against them. I get rage quitted on at least 5-10 times a night if I play because if you take the first stock they get pissy.

[@awareclueless]

2:32 Toph, i feel offended, but also thx for saying im pretty good now

[@awareclueless]

3:53 wait im here too?

[@DudeThatComments]

Falcon isn't lame because it feels like he believes in my ability to do better, even as he is currently beating my ass

[@mrpinguimninja]

Ngl, i always thought it was amazing how falcon was considered one of the worst of the high tiers and yet he had more players in the top 15 than most of the cast

[@phildabilder6669]

Honey wake up, new toph post

[@c7wolfyy]

You perfectly described “Marth is lame”, i be having a good day until I meet a Marth.

[@bustystussy3687]

What makes C. Falcon lame (imo) is how simple his neutral game is compared to the other top tiers, stomp knee, and all of his aerials link together. A lot of times you'll get comboed to death off of what would be just a stray hit for other characters. I don't necessarily think that the character is lame, I just think the things I listed are.

[@darly5448]

What if there's a secret final tier that no one, even himself is onto yet: Mango is lame

[@jamesdongvideos]

Lolllll this comment is underrated asf. I know you're joking, but I've often thought the tiniest part of this could actually be true. For example if Mango plays Marth on FD against a Fox (like he did against Leffen), he will choose not the chaingrab because it's lame. Which at first seems like the cool thing to do, but actually it's lame because in a strange fucked up way it's low-key dishonest, to intentionally play suboptimally because something is perceived as being lame.

[@darly5448]

@@jamesdongvideos @James Dong also, Mango is a homie stocker, which like every top player thats not Norwalk would probably call lame. And I can see a future where his aggressive play becomes consistent and optimal enough to the point that everyone else would call it lame that he gets to control the pace of the game at all times

[@theonlybass8947]

Fox privilege = great frame data, great recovery, fast movement, huge toolkit. Falcon privilege = no matter how lame you play everyone thinks you're sick

[@dh3913]

It’s cause he’s a chad that exudes lightning and fire when he hits you lol. Replace his character model and voice with something generic and get rid of the flashy effects and I bet more people would see him as lame

[@EthanLangenfeld]

I’m actually scared cause this describes me perfectly to a point. I will say if Toph thinks I’m gonna get to top 50 in the world so I can think Falcon is lame, ima try as best I can to prove him right!

[@rakkatytam]

I either went straight from thinking Shiek is lame to thinking Shiek is lame. Or maybe I never left the first one, probably that

[@Se7enRemain]

I'm so glad we're realizing as a community that A. Falcon is a top tier; and B. Fuck Falcon

[@shaan__real]

At the skill level of fox/puff being lame but at the mindspace of falcon being lame

[@elfamosocaribou5709]

I spam my friends "C. Falcon is lame" Like week one of switching ultimate to melee

[@elfamosocaribou5709]

Falcon was hype with Isai, but that's it

[@thaane]

Netplay/slippi is going to have an entire wave of players feeling 5Head; fully believing Falcon is lame. Because every Slippi Falcon plays like a Marth.

[@Br0k3nS41nt]

I think why top players think Falcon is lame is that he can literally get a stock at nearly any percent with one mistake from the other player. Top players can do all this insane tech and 5d neutral interactions, and then wizzy gets a stomp and suddenly none of that matters. It's what Ginger said that one time he lost to Wizzy after a really tough set. You can just die randomly.

[@gregoryrothemich6844]

Every one has lame stuff for sure. Wobbling seems to stand out with it being a fairly simple true infinite that isn’t stage dependent. Puff and ICs can be slow to watch yes, but the people who play the character shouldn’t be shat on

[@limitedbom2206]

I know the perfect way on how to know what level you are. It’s based on how stupid the questions that you get asked are: Noob: why’d you do that? Intermediate: how’d you do that? Above average: tips on how to beat ___? Expert: how do you hold your controller?

[@Ellienollie]

eh. i guess i do see this with how crucial asdi is now a days. i also believe what ever feels natural to you on your hands and if you grind out you figure out how to do nearly anything, however some times ut thumb simply be in two places at the same time so what u gonna do? i think this whole remapping controls wave is gonna change this, which i dont love the idea of

[@ben_venuto]

No character is lame in melee. I agree that wobbling is stupid, but other than that icies are pretty cool. At the end of the day, the lame ones are the those who stand behind the character and control their actions: the players and their playstyle.

[@Escobamos]

Lameness is all relative to the aspects of the game the individual likes. Imo Sheik ultimately has to beat falcon for lameness due to the time length of her punishes and her easier edgeguards... at least falcon kills you quickly and you can execute some long af custom combos on him. Most probably prefer that. Within Falcon does sleep the possibility of great non-interactivity and lameness... but people just don't really play him like Sonic, even though he IS this game's speedster class

[@USBYDProductions]

dang I have been hearing toph refer to the futility of DI'ing stomp>knee since 2015

[@Dytanious]

LMAO only a melee player would say "it's fun to complain about shit." That's so fucking funny.

[@angryii5411]

I have to watch Mr McDonald again, thank you for showing that on stream the other night 🌙 🤣 🤣

[@tilt9808]

imo the reason people don't think falcon is lame is because the most fun in melee is hitting the opponent and falcon is a living punching bag

[@krystof5271]

There really should have been a "falco is lame" towards the top for all the redditors that only play unranked and get hit by every single laser shot at them

[@jakezepeda1267]

Not a redditor, but God damn do i eat lasers like they are crack cookies.

[@nickrucker3562]

you should definitely do another teaching hugs memes episode

[@npc_blob1609]

The third eye opening is funny because I feel like half the comments I see anywhere about falcon are how lame he is and how everyone thinks he's hot shit

[@BlackCherryZyn]

Sheik gives you a death cutscene but falcon is like 3-4 hit combo to death that’s why he’s lame

[@moeeyeguy531]

I love the Mango is a genius conspiracy

[@tysonfontanez]

I’m not a top player but Ido watch a lot of melee and tbh I think Falcon is really good and hard to deal with. He lives for so long and can kill super early with knee, he can stomp you out of a crouch and tech chase really well, he moves faster than any other character and he’s easy to edgeguard but it takes forever, especially if you’re Marth. I actually think that Falcon is a top tier to be honest. I don’t think he’s lame though, to be clear, I just think people acting like he’s an honest character and isn’t a top tier is weird in this day and age And another hot take while we’re here, puff is not a top tier. The top 5 in this game are Fox, Falco, Marth, Falcon, Sheik (In that order probably) and then Puff is below that (and probably below peach too but it’s unclear). Puff is a sick character though

[@chrisdrums1910]

i’m a new-ish player to melee (have fundamentals from playing other smash games, still learning tech), and i’ve been complaining to my buddies that got me into the game that falcon is the lamest character in the game. They literally responded to me “it’s crazy you think that as a new player but you’re not wrong”

[@charlesw7397]

I'm at Marth is lame right now. I'm decent and can do some sick combos with my Falco but when I run into a good Marth, it's brutal. Perfect spacing, perfect dash dancing, perfect juggling, etc. It's not fun to run into one of them lol

[@Grabaxt]

I'm not near high level but when I see some of the good Falcons play I think that Falcon has the potential to be very cool but has a lot of very good options he can "abuse" which can be considered lame. And I think that is what it is when people say that he is lame. But feel free to correct me on this. It's really just an educated guess.

[@skirch6094]

damn the post is accurate asf, that was my melee journey down to the letter. Only thing is as I've progressed down to the Falcon & Fox V2 is lame, I don't think ICs Puff, or Peach are lame anymore. tho I think learned how lame Falcon was because of PM, where he just down throw tech chases/up throw up airs you until 80%, where he has up throw knee as a kill confirm on everyone, then I realized the exact same shit happens in melee just through a different finisher setup.

[@sungjaelee5599]

"Captain falcon is lame" is essentially "Sheik is lame" + Stomp knee. Nuff said.

[@MooncakePuff]

getting stomp knee'd is so fucking boring

[@brenq3852]

2:18 and now I never lose to sheik again :) Hopefully

[@FartquadGI]

Toph makes every grand finals for five years B E T T E R

[@t3cchan]

The people who think Falcon is lame are the same people who think Sheik and Puff are lame. They hate getting tech chased, and they hate characters with strong kill moves. Hurts their fragile egos to die at low %, even though Falcon himself is one of the most easily gimped characters in the game once he's offstage. The real gigabrain take is Mango's, which is that no character is lame.

[@beardalaxy]

There should be 1 last tier that says "melee is lame"

[@katiieeardley]

Scar was the leader of the C.Falcon pity party lmao

[@axis8396]

Falcon is probably the character I hate the most tbh, it's really rough for Peach and Falco dies at like 30 to a random knee. Kinda hard to whiff punish a character that can cover half or more of the stage with a dash into short hop lol

[@Zesilo]

2021 Toph is so rad

[@eftorq]

Last panel should be: every character is lame if you play lame

[@zaedis5629]

Falcon and Sheik are kind of the same character, they both have forward air kill moves, and they are both good at tech chasing, + some other things... but man, electricity coming out of his knee? That's really cool. Fire coming out of his hands and feet? That's really cool. So yeah, I can see why Falcon can be "lame" but Melee is just a really sick game, and every character can to cool stuff so I don't care. Stomp knee is lame, but it'll never stop being cool in my heart.

[@happycamperds9917]

I feel like there should be a “Falcon is lame” near the top as well. As a mediocre Melee player I think spam Knee and stomp in neutral is pretty lame, and not all characters can gimp him as easily as mine.

[@FlamingZelda3]

I started slippi a month ago and I'm on the "Marth is lame" Irony is i'm the one playing marth and beating players with way better techskill than me.

[@ethanpritt542]

Go get him Toph! Lol

[@shadowsfury63]

That's what plauge most of smash ultimate online (besides terrible service) is un-interactive gameplay and they're be rewarded for it.

[@dmullen1994]

all i took away from this is that falco isnt lame

[@TakumiJoyconBoyz]

If you're a Falcon player you start at the "Falco is lame" tier.

[@nate9078]

falcon just removes anything but shorthop neutral from the game

[@mishascokalo784]

Alpharad said it lol. He knows falcon is lame

[@e7nn]

I'm bad at the game, I play falcon coz it's fun, but even I don't try to tech chase my opponents to death, because I don't find it very fun, which is clearly not a common feeling among the other falcon I fight on netplay, even at (very) bad level

[@GeorgeOneEleven]

As a peach main, I think we graduate all the way to the final panel within the first year of playing lol. A top tier with no winning matchups be like that

[@arcaninety]

lol speak for yourself

[@gomjabbar6246]

I feel falcon is lame because his neutral before knockdown % is just crouch canceling and grab.

[@killaforchicken]

i'm just glad samus being lame isn't in the discussion anymore

[@Yvs8962]

Samus is lame as shit, this goes without saying. She as a character just isn't in any discussions anymore LOL

[@alexmonaghan4808]

toph you know zeke was pr'd

[@pikapac2281]

im definetly at the sheik part