TOTAL WAR NIGHTMARE BLUNT ROTATION: A Response

[@sausagesausage]

I've been a player of Total War since the demo of the very first game came free with a PC magazine. And the gatekeeping I see from fans that haven't been in this series for half that time is insane. I love Historical but I was one of the people who always dreamed of a fantasy setting and thoroughly enjoy Warhammer tw. Like what you like and don't worry about the snide little nerds.

[@Grunfffff]

Someone in Creative Assembly dreamed too. I remember article in gaming magazine about negotiations between CA and GW and I think that was just after lunch of first Rome TW.

[@-hms34]

Good times! ;) Did I remeber right you get one unit of archers and then need to put them on a hill to win the demo? ^.^

[@EmperorDionx]

I highly doubt you have played TW that long......just another lying casual WH fan

[@quimble2177]

Those evil gatekeepers wanting…more complex campaign gameplay, better battles and details that the company could do when it was far smaller than it currently is by apparently can’t now? Remember how they had to ADD unit officers in Warhammer TW?

[@malayafreespirit1905]

is that demo was with battle of river tribea...i got that demo

[@Monifans]

boys we made it we have total war drama reaction videos

[@AndysTake]

we've arrived

[@Krayt002]

It’s 2024 and I find myself agreeing more with Legend than Apollo, how times have changed. (The other guy clearly is just some condescending mf)

[@harrisoncurtis204]

Here’s what features I would like to see return, or get improved: - Kingdom/Empire management, like the features we see in Attila/DEI. Political intrigue, power balance of parties, marriage/divorce, family trees, decrees, etc. - Campaign map settlements/farms from Empire. The fact you can raid and destroy a regions farms, reducing the income and food for example, or destroying a university preventing their research - Armies without generals. Being able to send a few dragoon horse scouts ahead of your stack to scout, or raid some nearby points of interest. I loved having small skirmish battles in M2 or Empire. I loved recruiting native units during my British campaign in Empire and sending them to harass the French colonies and burn their trading outposts. - Similar to above, a non general unit getting the chance of earning experience and being able to earn a promotion. - Naval warfare and amphibious landings/battles. Imagine if you were able to bombard a settlement with your cannons from your ships while you send in marines to capture the walls during an Empire battle. One of the things I love from Rome 2 and Attila. - resource dependent mechanics like we have in Troy and Pharoah - multi-level sieges based on the size of the city or fortress like we had in M2 and Shogun 2 - ability to build forts and watchtowers like Rome and M2

[@AndysTake]

100%, no notes!

[@nointernet5852]

Games suck when they're made to make money rather than for the love of it. I don't think it's much more complicated than that.

[@AndysTake]

Indeed, they are more likely to suck when money is the primary focus, for sure.

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

Beautiful! Spot on. No more games made by fans for fans sadly.

[@scionoftheemperor1240]

The Devs for the Warhammer Trilogy are very clearly massive and passionate Warhammer Fans

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

@@scionoftheemperor1240 So they could do more to improve the battle mechanism which is copy and paste of terrible one from Rome 2.... .

[@roberthoadley5285]

Come on man, all games are made to make money. The games that do not make enough end up taking the game studios and at times the distributors down with them. Get Real, no one goes into gaming thinking about breaking even or losing money. Just how do you imagine they pay the developers or any of the bills for that matter? How do they keep the investors involved? What do they say to the shareholders all of whom are expecting to see returns on their investments. Anyone who believes otherwise has zero understanding of business.

[@Zquirrelthing]

i feel like the conversation would have been a lot better if it was just legend and apollo. would have probably been a lot less focused on pure hatred for total war, and more directed towards a productive conversation

[@captaintuna1323]

After Apollo made his “Quitting Total War” video however many years ago, i knew this would come eventually The videos just kind of felt like he was sulking, which sucked to see because I grew up watching Apollo

[@soomeguy5150]

Hes not happy playing games any more. All the new games coming out are mostly just the same thing over and over. Nothing to keep your interest for more than a few days before its on to the next.

[@Clyde92]

Only listened to the piece on Legend’s channel but I agree….they were bullying Legend into seeing their way. Was not a productive discussion

[@quimble2177]

My man’s took very blatant jokes seriously and straight up said *volound*, a man that gleefully talks about the mechanical deepness of older games and how much he adores them and laments their loss in modern titles, someone that hates total war. Like, you seem confused why they’re so bitter and angry, they tried to point the bad shit out normally to CA for fucking years, Volound alone had hours of what are basically video essays about the mechanics in Rome 1, med 2, shogun 1, shogun 2, etc, they played nice, and it achieved fuck and all. I know because I’ve watched them both for long enough to see their transformation. The thing they love has been beaten, shot, stabbed and thrown of a cliff, and every time they’ve told the person doing it “hey that’s bad” the fucker doubled down. Of course they’re bitter. It ain’t rocket science.

[@AndysTake]

It’s okay to be bitter, just don’t take it out on other people who are not bitter. It’s very simple.

[@quimble2177]

@ the problem is however, when those people go “you just hate the game” as you do. How can someone assume that person is then being good faith? You yourself say Apollo and Volound just…hate total war but like, you know that ain’t true, the proof is there on their channels. Of course if you simply dismiss what someone says as them 100% hating the thing or as nostalgia they won’t be very happy, And I mean, man, I started with Rome 2 for god sakes in like 2015, but objectively I can tell that if you took Rome 1’s gameplay, updated the graphics and controls (and I mean more than the remaster) it’d be a 10/10. That is undeniable, they are simply better games that suffer with issues that come with being an old game

[@AndysTake]

@@quimble2177 I also think they’re better games, in fact that’s what *my* entire channel is based on. But I don’t make it my life’s work to denigrate people who just want to have fun, and who enjoy the games for what they are. I criticize the games and the choices of CA, without creating imaginary scape goats or ghosts for people to be scared of. Again, it’s very simple.

[@quimble2177]

@ the issue is, the fans allow the company to do things, it’s up to us to keep them in check and we…haven’t. They got away with Rome 2. They got away with Attila, they got away with Troy, they got away with Warhammer 1 being mid as hell. The first time I saw the TW fan base properly say no, was the shadow of change (I think that’s what it was called) DLC, where it, + pharaoh being (and still being frankly) mid if not bad actually caused some change, such as CA’s new DLC policy. Now, This is, to be fair, an issue with the wider gaming industry, it’s not TW unique, but at the end of the day it’s up to us to keep the company in check, and the “community”…hasn’t, so I can absolutely understand shitting on people for letting it happen. We do not need CA, CA needs US and up until recently many people seemingly forgot that.

[@AndysTake]

@@quimble2177 it’s categorically wrong to demonize people who have nothing to be demonized for. It’s likely that a minority of people who play TW games pay attention to the drama or any controversies at all. You will achieve nothing but becoming a worse person filled with unresolved anger and bitterness by creating enemies out of faceless masses. It does nobody any good. Hate the game, not the player, as they say.

[@joebonaparte1490]

I’m so old my first total war game was shogun. Then the mongol invasion dlc I fell in love on day one one once I figured out how to play. I was 14. I loved every game up till Rome 2 I liked it but didn’t love it. I do hope medieval 3 does come out with the same mechanics as the second one

[@khal7702]

Three Kingdoms isn't bad, Hero thing is bit much but U can play in regular mode, tho it wasn't designed for that. Pharaoh Dynasties is pretty good tho

[@joebonaparte1490]

@ when I get my better computer I’m going to try it. The hero thing did take away and I love love love navel battles even if it’s clunky.

[@nomooon]

@@khal7702 hero is not a problem, the problem is lack of heroes. I also played KOEI Three Kingdoms games extensively, and the lack of heroes in Three Kingdoms makes the game feel pretty empty.

[@jaywerner8415]

It won't, and we all know it.

[@notgoddhoward5972]

Rome 2 was the turning point for Total war. Or rather the point of no return. It was not a game it was a product. The game didn't match the marketing they provided. I still prefer to play Empire with no Mods over anything past Warhammer 1.

[@Austin-sw3mf]

I don't get the argument that fantasy ruined TW. The Third Age mod was huge in the community when it came out, and I feel it created even more of a desire for a fantasy TW title to be made. WH1-3 have had some rough spots, but they've also given us a ton of fun experiences. I really want another good historical TW, but I also want more sci-fi and fantasy TW games. We can have both and still have fun.

[@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts]

Everyone in these comments just dislikes those guys personalities or ignores their arguments completely pretending they just dislike fantasy and not that they’re pointing out flaws in recent CA titles while a section of the fan base just enjoys the downgrade - which is why we have the downgrade. “Just let me enjoy” fans + lazy / uh creative company = recipe for Ubisoft tier production

[@notgoddhoward5972]

1000% correct. I like both warhammer(not the total war version just in general and total war). I just hate that it's not an actual game anymore but a caricature of one after Rome 2 and Attila days. And Ubislop has become the worst company ever, even surpassing EA somehow. Assassin's Creed 2 is still my favourite game. I hate modern Ubisoft so much I wish I was a billionaire just so I could buy them out and finish them.

[@AB-uq8yh]

The arguments are “I hate the game and you should too”. They are the minority. No one really cares what they say because of how they say it. You can want CA to make better games. But what they want is to the CA and anything new. It’s tedious, it’s not productive and they should move on.

[@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts]

@ thanks for another clear example of those stupid comments I referred to. Their arguments are “these games have a lot of issues and we have to make a fuss about it and be fair when reviewing them else CA will continue to do it.” They’ve never given a dumb argument like that, that’s something only a dishonest person would say trying to discredit someone else. Learn to steel man your opposition If you’re just gonna give half thought, stupid , and/or dishonest comments like this then you may as well join the others and just comment under the video yourself.

[@AB-uq8yh]

@@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts did you listen to the podcasts? Did you play older TW games? It’s like you all exist in a vacuum. At the end of the day, no one cares what your side thinks because you just hate everyone that disagrees with you. Enjoy your older games, you don’t get a historical game anytime soon.

[@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts]

@AB-uq8yh I hope everyone sees this guy for what he is doing - ignoring the actual argument and jumping straight to “you just hate the game and hate everyone who disagrees with you” no logic no reasoning no response to anything I’ve said, just repeat the same stupid line. Like I said, join your fellow idiots in the comments in refusing to actually discuss what many in the community think about modern TW and CA, continue pretending we’re a minority and no one cares, and continue “just enjoying” the games. I’ve played older and recent TW titles and I definitely notice a difference myself in what those games are relative to what came before and those complaints are valid. Honestly you’re probably a bot , I’ll stop responding.

[@KaiserOfPrussia0910]

While I do like Apollo’s channel, I must agree that at times he feels too much like a Total War puritan. He blames the downfall of CA on the fans who play the Warhammer games, not the company that can’t listen to the fans, and that makes him come out as snobby and better-than-you. He blames the downfall of the Total War franchise on the inclusion of fantasy purely because it is fantasy, when even some historical games have been (in my opinion) as bad as the worst of the Warhammer games. Because of this, he blames those who enjoy the fantasy elements of the Warhammer games, or Troy, not the company behind them Edit: To clear up some misconceptions in the replies, I do NOT like or enjoy the Warhammer games, nor is this comment a defense in their favor. This comment has nothing to do with the actual quality of the games. Only on Apollo’s opinions on the games, which I would like to thank him for clearing up some of the misconceptions I had, which I take responsibility for. No clue why the replies became a dick measuring contest on “who has played more Total War” though

[@PixelatedApollo1]

Thanks for pointing this out. You mentioned many misconceptions that I always see, and hopefully, I can clear some things up. First, "He blames the downfall of the Total War franchise on including fantasy purely because it is fantasy..." I Was excited about the announcement of Warhammer back in 2016. I enjoy fantasy, as you can tell from the countless Thrid Age videos I have on my channel. My issue is not that it is fantasy; my problem is that the mechanics are lazy and uninspiring. The same issue has bled into Pharoro and Troy. Historical games that I also dislike. Second, "He blames the downfall of CA on the fans who play the Warhammer games, not the company that can’t listen to the fans..." This is also not true; while I do not see eye to eye with most Warhammer fans or "New" Total War fans, I have mostly blamed CA for the current state of their games. The point I was trying to make in the "Total War has fallen" video was that the current fanbase is happy with the current state of the games, so they will not change, and CA will continue to make money and not improve the games. I wouldn't say that I am a Total War Puritan; I am just someone who wants to see CA innovate and create good games again. If Warhammer was its own separate thing and the other games were not affected by its lazy mechanics, I would not care, honestly.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@PixelatedApollo1 You called warhammer fans “lowest denominator” don’t ask questions type consumers. Even though we corrected CA over the Shadows of Change DLC. So what if we buy DLC, it’s really no one’s business what we do with it and we can spend it on whatever we want. It’s significantly less egregious than buying cosmetics for every season on Fortnite of Call of Duty. If we like the content we will buy it, Warhammer is not trying to appeal to historical battles and tactics, it’s a fantasy war game and we buy the stuff because it’s fun to roleplay our favorite characters. It’s not really that contentious if you think about it, we didn’t ask CA to make Troy, 3 Kingdoms, or Pharoah. You can sit there and act like you didn’t blame warhammer fans but your choices in words say otherwise, cut the gaslighting if you want to be taken seriously.

[@raed1642]

You obviously never watched or listened to any of his arguments, and he's right btw

[@raed1642]

​@@sercravenmohead3631go back to the totalwar subreddit, oh wait this channel is basically the same echo chamber

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@ I’ve probably played total war games longer than you have, y’all can’t take criticism at all. Go back to your safe space, over here we disagree. I have watched his videos, I enjoy his battles content and play throughs. I even have a comment with some likes and comments on his “CA has Fallen” video, I know exactly where he’s coming from and while I agree on the state of HISTORICAL total wars it’s simply not fair to compare apples and oranges with warhammer TW, clearly that game had different design choices intentionally to appeal to the warhammer fanbase. That’s why we play that game and not the other new games, we didn’t ask nor did we like Troy or Pharoah.

[@Claudiustheimmortal]

Am in two minds about this, I been watching Volund videos for some time now, and he does raises a lot of very solid points. CA has been downgrading the series, it's been a thing since Rome 2, and it's so blatantly obvious the fault lies with the developers and the management of the company. Then you get the seething bitter hated aimed at the Warhammer community, it's not really their fault, CA was going downhill all while Warhammer TW was just a mere rumor. and part 2 of the discussion was mostly just Apollo and Volund mugging off LOTW. Anybody with half a sense of social awareness could see that. It's toxic, and just encourages me to just allow what it currently happening now to continue ... like ok, we have more fantasy games then? Bye now. The community needs to band together, and it's doable, it's Volund and Apollo who sabotaging the concept itself, they want to champion the "true total war experience" and both parties would benefit to pressuring CA into giving the series and the community the respect it deserves, the truth is, neither of them actually believes it can be done, they given up and both of them admired that in part 1, now it's just degraded to schoolyard politics. We need to do better than this.

[@daseafrate2025]

When you go on the "total war" subreddit you'll find people talking about "Total war 2". "Total war 2" became warhammer 2 for so many people like the historical game dont even exist. That's just sad

[@TheBaralinChannel]

It isn't just sad. People like Warhammer and that's the only Total War they care about. I've grown up on the old games but one has to realize that times change. If they have an interest in history, maybe they'll check out Shogun 2 and Rome. If not, then who gives a shit. Literally, who gives a shit? How do the games people play affect you in any way?

[@notgoddhoward5972]

I knew the "it's over" days were ahead when they announced they were renaming all their games to put "total war" in the beggining of the game title. Imagine if there was nevere a ROME total war but Total war Rome, if there was no NAPOLEON total war but "Total War 6 - 1812 Campaing 'something something'". They lost the plot a decade ago with Rome 2 and never came back. Still waiting for the "We are so back" days but I think that ain't happening in my lifetime.

[@notgoddhoward5972]

@@TheBaralinChannel And the worst part is it's not even a bad game. It's just a terrible TOTAL WAR. Like I can see why so many people attach to it because it's the only high production game about WH fantasy that exists for people. The tabletop is dead for longer than I have been alive at this point I think and other studios couldn't make a game this huge even if they had the money and rights.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

It’s all getting to be too pretentious from these guys except Legends, just say you don’t like warhammer and their fans just to be done with it. These guys say they’re done with the franchise but here they are crying about it some more. Apollo literally called warhammer fans lowest denominator don’t ask questions type consumers. First of all we corrected CA on the shadows of Change DLC when it was lackluster, but as for buying content we actually want who cares? They’re just mad they got replaced and there isn’t enough juice in the historical community to justify making another historical title. I’ve played nearly all their games, we didn’t twist CA’s arm to make Troy and Pharoah or 3 Kingdoms.. we didn’t like those games either. Warhammer TW didn’t get popular because of the warhammer franchise, Tabletop fantasy got discontinued in favor for more 40k and the fantasy side had a handful of decent games so it’s not like CA had guaranteed success, out of all the Warhammer content they chose the one Gamesworkshop doesn’t even support anymore which is why they probably got the green light to do it because if it flopped it would be low risk to GW. Now Warhammer TW is popular and Fantasy Tabletop was brought back officially and revitalized the Warhammer fantasy setting! Go ahead and nitpick “oh I talked to this tabletop fan and they said they hated WHTW”, the overwhelming majority of warhammer fans love these games. Nothing really competes in the RTS genre, the only fantasy RTS out there that I can think of for fantasy is Mark of Chaos and it just doesn’t come close.

[@TheCleanerDragon]

Now what would the dream blunt rotation be? 🤔

[@j0hncarp]

Koi Fish, Turin, HeirofCarthage. Pilps maybe. Andy here

[@LJD442]

These two boys are very young I feel like and haven't learned how to see prospective or nuance. Legend was very diplomatic and I really respect his calm engagement. Great commentary Andy!

[@AndysTake]

Thank you! I do believe these «two boys» are in their mid thirties or something though :)

[@81k-z8m]

I honestly did not understand why Legend kept indulging them and kept the "discussion" alive for so long while being the only rational person in the room. It was so painful to listen to, felt like an eternity. Anyway, I agree with your points. Just hope people would stop using this rant format. Please make structured content. Time is priceless.

[@thunderbagel3886]

There's a weird little corner of TW KZbin, helmed by Volund and I guess includes Apollo now too, that just seethes constantly at modern TW games and trash talks anyone that doesn't join in on their circle jerk of misery. I slowly backed away after finding it and have never looked back

[@AndysTake]

glad to hear you caught on early! Always love reading your comments

[@YeetThyBaby]

Volound is a putridly vile creature and it's really disappointing seeing people associate with him tbh

[@AndysTake]

@@YeetThyBaby I agree the association is very disappointing

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Forget historical or fantasy settings for a moment. Total War has got issues, the lack of being able to build armies without a general always felt like a limitation to me, yes they claim they did it to make battles less often but when they did they where grand scale battles. But in reality the enemy just made a new army with general every other turn anyway so you never really got one decisive battle to stop the enemy since next turn they will spawn new ones. But the real flaw in current TW is the engine itself, yes it does look pretty and nice, but it struggles to handle Melee combat since it never was built for it, remember it was created for Empire's Gun warfare first. I think if CA got a new engine more in tune with the physics and needs of melee combat and brought back some of the beloved ideas of older games Total War would be back on a golden road. At the moment look when infantry fight, no real formations, no weight just a mess and units seem to skid as well. Warhammer would look a lot better if Units had real collision and weight in their movements.

[@AndysTake]

True!

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@AndysTake Just Imagine a new Engine, releasing with Total War: Middle Earth.

[@roberthoadley5285]

Really, what historical army marched forth without a leader? Sure reinforcements were oft😅en needed but enemy they had a leader, maybe not a general but usually a Major or Lt. Colonel. It is true I exploited this feature when it was available in the earlier games but there are ways to work around this as well.

[@roberthoadley5285]

Sorry, typo from my tablet. Me and even😅

[@copeduchaine2398]

I do like Apollo and think he means well and wishes the franchise to be better (like we all do). But yeah it’s kinda crazy to see how much visceral hate he has for warhammer/pharaoh without actually playing it is wild. It’s hard to trust an opinion when there’s no experience behind that opinion.

[@Freeartisan]

Regardless of Legend's play style, I just watch his streams sometimes as a side thing while I do my work stuff or light gaming. The interesting thing about his streams to me is to listen to his opinions on the game or dev struggles managing this game, because he does respond to his chat more than needed. The talk series is fine to have. More added opinions.

[@sandsiren4840]

Listen I’m a passionate person so I get that people can express their love or their hate of a game loudly, where it goes to shit is when they start almost like attacking people for having a different preference. Like then it’s a bit too intense…

[@roberthoadley5285]

Sorry to bring politics into this discussion but this is what the Dems have become; their own stupid echo chamber where no opinion but their own is acceptable. I have many Dem friends but have found they are rarely able to actually support any position with logic. With many it is pure emotion. Love them all, but as an engineer I stick to logic. If CA wants to Stan in business in the long term they MUST grow their market share. They need to exploit every revenue stream they can find, be that carbon copy games or cosmetic DLCs. No company stays in business without making their investors and stockholders happy and CA is no exception. If we want to see them continue making the games we seem to love to hate we better support them by continuing to support them. Can they improve, sure but what is more important in continuing to find ways to meet their bottom line while hopefully producing a gem of a new games that we all enjoy. Anyone who says different is simply being naive, or has zero understanding of how business actually works.

[@XVRKMOVIES]

In my opinion those three podcasts are very low level conversations. "Legend" was the only one that kept the conversation at a respectable level. Although i never liked they way "Legend" approached the Total War games, by finding joy in exploiting mechanics and i also never liked the Warhammer games and the Sagas. For me every TW game after Attila is not worth playing. CA is NOT the ONLY to blame for the fall of Total War, fans have a big responsibility for its demise.

[@lovelybitofsquirrel8272]

I'm very surprised Legend never talked about the actual IP of Warhammer also being a massive factor. I can guarantee if Warhammer was Lord of the rings/middle earth skinned instead of Warhammer Apollo would of creamed his pants for these games. sometimes the IP is just interesting enough that you overlook issues. for example I wouldn't be happy at all with a star wars total war but I know plenty of people who would throw money at CA to play a game like that. and Volund..... we he's Volund, like that one guy at school who thinks he's gods gift to gaming and never grew up or realised that everyone else around him grew up and left him behind. and I say this as a Historical total war player who also enjoys Warhammer but can see its faults. most fans just want the games to be deeper and more complex. battles to be more tactical, grounded and engaging and of course without all the little bugs that make battles like sieges so infuriating to player (gate bug, units not being responsive, units getting pulled back into combat, unit pathfinding such as going through a gate instead of up a siege tower). we just want what we HAD but with the benefit of new technology to enjoy it.

[@AndysTake]

@@lovelybitofsquirrel8272 absolutely, and I think you’re so hitting the nail on the head there - so much of loving a game is the vibes, setting and atmosphere, and you can forgive sooo much if you enjoy the general vibe of a game. It’s why to me, honestly I don’t think I would’ve loved Napoleon nearly as much as I do, if the music on the campaign map hadn’t created that very special, very melancholic and nostalgic atmosphere, it kinda makes everything else come together. Sometimes a single feature like that makes the entire difference.

[@generalsqueezy9489]

Could you please make a narrative video? I’ve rewatched the existing ones so many times.

[@AndysTake]

that's kind of you! I definitely will consider it :) been trying to think of something to make it on

[@generalsqueezy9489]

@ Anyone would be great of course, but I think it would be interesting to see one on Pharao dynasties because there’s not a lot of content on campaign yet.

[@maxbenjim2243]

Would love to voice chat with you about some of this. I don't like Apollo or Volound, particularly the way they treat alternative viewpoints and whether they will listen to them or at least agree that it is reasonable to hold. The main thing I want to point out is that people highly under-rate two things about CA and their expectations of CA: 1. People that worked on previous games but didn't continue on or institutionalize their knowledge of how to engineer and design the things that made previous titles have a strong "fit" between mechanics and gameplay with them. If those people don't work there anymore, or couldn't quantify their knowledge into new updates to the engine, there's no way to just will the game to rise above those technical limitations on what people want it to do and be and become. 2. People don't realize these technical limitations and the implication of what trancending them means. We're talking about CA asking Sega for big money to invest in a new engine that has design and programming tools that allow depth of function and breadth of scope to get this genre to where people are demanding it. I do want that, but it is hard to see that going the way Volound or Apollo would have it, just because they whine and scoff about it and bemoan that they are not respected and valued for their opinions, even though they are not rolling up their sleeves like modders or people like the DarthMod team making their own series of games that at least aspire to make what they say they want. It is hard work! One of the reasons there are breakthroughs and joy out of previous games being modded, is because people who love them, are willing to work long and hard for free ! to learn far more than CA devs may have ever envisioned about the engine of Med2, Atilla, etc, to push the limits and expand the scope of those limited games into amazing heights like what's coming with Dawnless Days and more. But it takes time to dig through those systems, and what companies are willing to allow under the hood of their proprietary technology. People like Volound stirring up brigades of contempt and discontent, are never going to be willing to put real skin into this pursuit like that.

[@Kskdjdndndnndididjd]

CA is rubbing there hands together right now cackling saying yes yes there Tearing each other apart

[@AB-uq8yh]

No, CA is just reinforcing their opinion to ignore the historical side of the community. These two presented themselves as hate-filled idiots and it justifies not listening to them.

[@Redbeardian]

I love all the total war games I've played so far. Shogun 2, Med 2, Rome 2, 3 Kingdoms, Empire, Napoleon, Attila, Warhammer 1 2 and 3. and now Pharaoh Dynasties. My only gripe is that my hard drive cant hold them all at once. I can only have 3 of them at a time and one other big game, like Fallout 4. Warhammer 3 immortal empires is by far my most favorite game ever of any genre.

[@nomooon]

luckily we only need to install warhammer 3. Imagine having to install all 3, that's 150 gb just for the base games....

[@jtoegi]

love the title lmaoooo

[@RogueRanks]

You weren’t kidding about nightmare blunt rotation good hell… fantastic response couldn’t agree more!

[@AndysTake]

Appreciate it!

[@r31n0ut]

I didn't watch the discussion that far but holy shit what a pair of elitist snobs. 'hur dur I'm so smart and anyone who likes a thing I don't like isn't worthy to kiss my feet.'

[@AndysTake]

basically what it sounds like at times

[@xx-knight-xx2119]

I think the warhammer franchise has made some great changes to total war in general with the controls and ui but I think the best benefit of the warhammer franchise is its popularity. If CA does med 3 or nepoleon 2, or empire and the game is well made and recived well.If they make it the best of both worlds it will sore in terms of sells. Warhammer brought a lot of people into the franchise and Im sure lots of people are like me in that I have a hard time going back to play games that are great but old and have clunky controls and the ui is a little harder to understand and what not. A modern historical title with the big changes that warhammer made was bring the historical and fanasty players together.

[@zachnucum8556]

It is sad hearing arguments just hating on people rather than the game.

[@nathanfee9644]

Interesting! Agree here and this video probably will get attention you aren't desiring, but you know this. Total War is not alcoholism and even bringing it up is absurd and lowers any legitimacy the point may have had. Somewhat bold to do this video. I like it! Thanks for the video!

[@AndysTake]

thank you, nathan!

[@adrianthompson5250]

I am a big fan of Pharaoh Dynasties and I always suspected that many of the people who criticized it so badly had never bothered to play it.

[@AndysTake]

You were right. Honestly, I couldn’t in my wildest dreams imagine that someone who spend so much time hating, never even played it to begin with, never even *tried* it.

[@jarjars3261]

I mean I don't like what CA has been doing the last decade either but I just stick to the old titles and ignore the newer titles (post-Atilla) for the remainder. Pick and choose what you like, ignore the rest. Especially when it comes to things that are supposed to be fun.

[@AndysTake]

this is the way

[@jaywerner8415]

Apollo.... is clearly still living in the Early 2000s. And I don't think he will ever stop living their. Everyone knows Volound is an ASSHOLE, but far as his critics of TW go, He is NOT WRONG. It certainly feels that way anyway. And Legend, what can I say he just likes pushing the game to its limits. Says more about him then the Current State of Total War. A Remaster of Med 2 would be a LIGHTING BOLT FROM GOD right now for Total War and CA. Its just like.... Why would you Remaster Rome 1 and not Remaster Med 2? Maybe they are waiting for an Anniversary or something? The fact of the matter is, TOTAL WAR HAS CHANGED and alot of people take issue with the WAYS in which Total War HAS CHANGED. And well.... CA has also changed, they are not the same CA that gave us Shogun through Med 2. Want to know WHY Empire is looked back on with at least SOME praise? Cus it is pretty clear it was PUSHING what Total War could do. Shogun 2 and Fall of the Samauri PUSHED what TW could be (still Flawed, be it was so good we kinda glossed over them) Rome 2 and Attila where the LAST Total War games that Felt like TOTAL WAR GAMES to me. Warhammer is in its Own Category, its own Realm, its own Niche. Do I like it? Not really, but I can see WHY people like the Warhammer Trilogy. The Closest I think CA got to WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT, was 3Kingdoms, Sort of. Cus obviously Historical mode Sucks and the Mythology mode is too "Warhammer" Like. Which brings me to my next point, Ever since WH 1 came out, their has been this SHIFT from playing as a Nation State to playing as a Character, of a race, of a Sub Faction, of a Faction, like we are playing a RPG. I feel like this only REALLY works during say a time of Civil War or Internal Conflict. Such as FOR EXAMPLE, the French Revolution. Here I am thinking TW is supposed to about Running a Nation and its Military to achieve whatever your Victory goals happen to be. Be it Military, Economic or Cultural Victory. But then we also have all these "design choices" dating back to ROME 2 that have NOT CHANGED in over a Decade now, like how Cities and Provinces work despite the fact that people have made their Criticism with those choices quite clear.

[@roberthoadley5285]

In many ways it has changed for the better. I own every total war game since the beginning including all of the DLCs. The current economy models are much more nuanced than in the early games and the campaign maps are stunning. Battles seem about the same and while Warhammer games are not my favorite titles I have enjoyed them as a change. For me I always seem to go back to Rome II, Medieval II, Napoleon and Empire but I like Shogun II, Troy and Pharaoh for the differences and additional challenges. I think the folks spouting off about this are much to do about nothing and do not understand how stock companies work even a little bit. No developer or distributor makes games for the fun of it. They all have stockholders, profit margins and return on investment to consider. People that think otherwise are just DUMB; just sayin!

[@Zhongda95]

First, I don't think that you disagree with them as much as you declare to. They also acknowledge that total war games have always been flawed. The thing is they never evolved as much as they expected to, based on what they got with the old titles, in all their technical limitations. As for the battles, their point exactly is that battles were not merely a spectacle at all. They were a chance for the player to turn the tide in their favour through tactical superiority. I haven't played the most recent games and I initially wouldn't understand the hate but from what I understand, battles have become less tactics-oriented and more stats oriented, making them essentially interchangable with auto-resolve, something that was NOT the case in the old games. Finally, when you mention how often Total War games come out in the last years, do you actually think this is a good thing? I wonder, do all these people who declare how much they can't wait for the next historical total war setting actually have the time to invest in each of the newer titles as much as they would in the old ones? Imagine if instead of a half-assed game per year we got a complete one in every three years. But it looks like they are deliberately not doing this, because it's more important for them to keep selling stuff that never hit the mark so that the fanbase asks for more, and this seems to have become a theme in various once beloved video game franchises as well. Seriously, do gamers really have all the time to invest in every game they are supposedly waiting for, when we already have way too many? Do total war fans actually prefer to spend their time auto-resolving battles in multiple games that simply shift from one setting to another, rather than wait for one game that will actually give them a good reason to play these battles? I think that's closer to the spirit of what PA tries to say as a romantic who once fantasized about how much better the new total wars would be, and how regardless of wether the new ones are objectively bad games or not, they just seem to become increasingly irrelevant and indifferent to the old fans who have become disillusioned by CA's bad practices.

[@AndysTake]

What you’ll notice in the video and from most of my video catalogue is that I actually don’t disagree with them on the substance of the debate as it relates to the quality of the games. What I do disagree with is their approach to the discussion, they way they demonized people for liking something they don’t. That’s where I draw the line. Hate the game, not the player.

[@BobK58]

Have they heard of The Spiffing Brit? He breaks everything.

[@AndysTake]

Yuuuuup

[@getsomeboy321]

Warhammer is a good time but there is something special about historical titles. The older ones have some really cool mechanics that have disapeared. Also naval battles are cool.

[@AndysTake]

Agreed!

[@thedisturbed1114]

Great video Andy your the best person out of this rotation! :)

[@AndysTake]

Thank you so much for watching and for the kind comment!

[@GrandAdmThrawn]

Legend is a legend, and is spot on almost all the time.

[@xx-knight-xx2119]

I love warhammer for the setting and you can do things in warhammer you could never do in a historical total war. The use of magic to turn the tide of a battle the use of indiviuals as overpowered but not to overpowered units where you can build movie like scenes from. Warhammer and historical fill two different niches and theres no reason we cant have both. Historical and fantasy can borrow from eachother to make the other better. Yes i wouldn't want magic or generals without bodygaurds or special abilities but thats why i have warhammer. CA just needs to make the two distinct from each other but that doesn't mean that CA cant do both great.

[@AndysTake]

Exactly. At the end of the day, these are design choices, and I think Pharaoh Dynasties goes a long way in showing that Sophia really tried to turn that engine and game towards a much more historical and traditional approach again, even though it’s not perfect.

[@wibblewolf4136]

The conversation went as it was abysmal. I think Legend wanted a more nuanced discussion about TW, but I believe MonstersAbound, Loremaster of Sotek, Cody Bonds, and The Great Book of Grudges would have been hands down better for that - including yourself. The way TW is developing the games makes it feel like they are testing the waters to see what works and what doesn't, especially with the fan base. With Warhammer 3, it is clear that they are polishing the game and keeping the DLC going. There is plenty of DLC that they can do-if the rumours are correct, Warhammer 40k, and Medieval 3 are on the table, I mean we have been waiting years for the next Eldar Scrolls. Also, that discussion shows the type of persons that PP and esp V are - especially the vile comments - and I think that speaks volumes - hypocrites and all.

[@izymandius3822]

dont get me wrong i prefer historical total war games but warhammer total war is also really fun most likely for my bias toward warhammer as a entirety..... however i also REALLY need a CA made lord of the rings total war

[@vegapunk100]

Andy Volund Apollo and Legend. Legend can arbiter the discussion make it happen

[@matthewwebster3143]

I'll say this Andy you handled this well

[@MedjayofFaiyum]

This is the era of total war: fandom civil war

[@Sarcasmses]

Lots of lost people out there. Many look to video games for what little meaning they can gather into their lives, or as a simple distraction from their complete lack of meaning. Hope we all have something else in our lives other than video games, because games will eventually get worse, and you'll eventually get bored of them. They really aren't worth this much of our thinking time.

[@AndysTake]

True enough!

[@notgoddhoward5972]

I almost let our cat destroy the house because I left a door open that I shouldn't have because I was playing Teutoburg in Rome Total War back in the day when I was a kid. I got chewed out like hell but it was worth it. So it all depends on the perspective. But if you can't even put a reload animation into a game comming out in 2020+ with millions of dollars behind it when a 2004 game had details like that in the dozens I don't know what to tell you. Immersion is everything for total war.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@notgoddhoward5972 one of the laziest copy-pasted criticisms of the game out there. ONE unit out of, what, fifty, in ONE faction out of 15 or something, doesn't have a reload animation that you don't even notice because you're normally zoomed out while playing the game. Is that a GOOD thing? No, obviously not - it would indeed be better if it had a reload animation. HOW MUCH better would the game be? Like, 0.000000001% better. It's a complete non-issue that doesn't show up in 95% plus of the battles you fight, and it's the one criticism people like you keep repeating like it's a real zinger.

[@notgoddhoward5972]

@BittermanAndy Your reply sounds like cope I'm sorry. Why bother with making detailed units at all? Just make pixel squares instead and same result. And it's not one singular unit, what are you talking about? I have enough hours in total war Warhammer perhaps more than you do.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@notgoddhoward5972 "sounds like cope", are you seven years old? Not that it's a competition, but I have 1142 hours in Warhammer 3. You might have more, many do... but if you do... the lack of a reload animation on Empire Handgunners evidently hasn't spoiled the game for you THAT much, has it? WHICH IS EXACTLY MY POINT. You're playing it for hundreds, maybe thousands of hours, presumably because you ENJOY it, and are still whining about one missing animation.

[@Swedish_Napoleon]

Never did I ever imagine that we would have Total War KZbin feuds😂

[@MummyNapkin970]

I am a bit torn on the premise of the discussion. I myself am someone who always argues that consumers are to a degree responsible for the product they are getting: consume mediocrity and you will receive more mediocrity. But, not only was the tone of the discussion disrespectful to many fans of certain TW games, it was also fundamentally misguided. Mostly it came down to "Warhammer = bad", which is just stupid. Granted, I don't care for the fantasy games either. I even agree that Total War games have had serious issues for a while now. But the tone of the whole discussion made me kinda sick. It's just not the way I would approach any sort of discussion.

[@AndysTake]

I agree. I too think there is a way to have a discussion about consumer choices and responsibility/accountability, but it is *not* to demonized people for having fun, or to target certain communities in this way. It’s reprehensible and desperate.

[@CALLE92JOHANSSON]

Listened to most of their stuff, quit halfway through part 3 because that was enough of that. Agree with basically everything you say. I comment to point out that you mention a CA controversy that happened last year. I have heard people reference this before and I specifically remember commenting on your video in the past saying that you should mention what this controversy is for context because not everyone knows what you're regering to. You answered me then with a non answer basically saying everyone knows you dont have to explain. So here I am again, commenting the same thing. Still not knowing wtf this controversy is. I dont care enough to look it up, but I care enough to have context provided in the right setting which would be these videos where you reference them.. Cheers. I am with you on the carefully positive side, total war could still get back to their glory days.

[@AndysTake]

Hi! Hm, please let me know what I said back then, I don’t remember that, but I apologize if I came across as rude. The controversy was basically that CA was overcharging and under delivering on the WH3 DLC Shadows of Change, alongside bad communication from CA, that many bugs still remained in WH3, the news that CA had spent dozens of millions of dollars on a game they cancelled before release (Hyenas), and that Pharaoh released as a game very few liked or wanted to begin with. Hope that clears up a thing or two!

[@fakename7847]

Thanks for the review of their series.

[@Owlr4ider]

@Andy's Take why are you being so disingenuous in this video? You fully understand where Volound and Apollo are coming from, you even agree with most of their points. You don't like their harsh language, that's fine, but the way you dismiss their arguments due to said language is just pathetic. For example in the portion on Oblivion vs Warhammer. You fully understood what they were saying and your own example is just flat out false. No, Warhammer did not push the envelope, at all! In fact it went backwards, and you know it. Yes Warhammer added magic, dragons and monsters to Total War but that's not pushing the envelope, that's like putting icing on a cake. It doesn't change the cake itself. Oblivion pushed the envelope, Bethesda went where no RPGs went before, in terms of scale, NPC behavior, etc. What did Warhammer do to push the envelope? What new mechanics did it add to the existing formula? And I mean game mechanics not the faction specific stuff like Oath Gold for the Dwarves which are again fluff more than anything else. The battles themselves have consistently been dumbed down, the same awful province system from Shogun 2 has remained the same if not gotten even worst rather than iterated upon and improved, diplomacy is still dogshit despite Three Kingdoms taking massive leaps in that direction, the AI still relies on massive cheats to actually be able to play the game, etc. Making progress in any of these vectors, or others as these were just a few examples, would have been pushing the boundaries of what Total War is. That is simply not what Warhammer did. Look, I like Warhammer too, though unlike you I'm not blind to its faults nor have any problems acknowledging them. As you said, we are human beings, we're allowed to enjoy fast food every now and than, going back to the food analogies mentioned here and in the original videos, rather than just steak dinners or fancy seafood platters. Enjoying fast food doesn't change the fact that fast food is still fast food, that's the part you're having trouble with for whatever reason. Warhammer is objectively a bad Total War game. It doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed, but it doesn't change the fact that the game's foundations are terrible. Likewise Pharaoh is an objectively terrible game, which suffers from the exact same issues as Warhammer just without all the fluff so what you're left with is just a terrible cake without the icing to make it more palatable. You don't actually have to play Pharaoh to reach this conclusion as it's obvious from just looking at others playing/reviewing it, just form your own opinion based on what you see from how others are engaging with Pharaoh and the package itself which you can clearly see or read on from the wiki, reddit, forums, etc, which explain all the mechanics and whatnot which are the key factors in objectively determining whether the game is good or not. Enjoyment is subjective, the mechanics themselves are objective. And it's not just the hp system, it's also how formations work(under the hood that is) and many other aspects of combat. And combat isn't the only mechanic that has been dumbed down either, just 1 major example.

[@AndysTake]

Absolutely not, the only "objective" aspect of the mechanics is that they exist. "This game has population numbers that mimick realism" is an objective aspect, "this game has a population system, and that is a good thing" is a subjective opinion. Understand the difference. Not everybody likes a population system, but even though I think it is better, I won't hate an audience for disagreeing with me.

[@Owlr4ider]

@@AndysTake I wasn't just talking about the population system which is long gone but actual mechanics that still exist like the battles themselves. The change from the all or nothing system of earlier total war games to the hp system(not the single digit values of Rome1/Medieval 2 but the modern iteration) was a massive step backwards and that's the main reason Medieval 2 battles feel the best in the series and why battles in Rome 1 are vastly superior to Rome 2. The mechanical difference is objective, the fact that the current system is arcady is also objective. Whether you prefer an arcady system or a realistic one is indeed subjective but that's not the point. For the setting of Total War arcady systems are objectively a step backwards. Objectively speaking the current system is dumbed down from the old, from a mechanical perspective, that is objective. Again, you can prefer to eat fast food rather than a steak dinner but it doesn't change the fact that a steak dinner is a much higher quality meal than fast food.

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

This is the first time I don't agree with you Andy. I tried new TW's and I couldn't play them longer than few hours. Troy, Warhammers, 3 Kingdoms. All uninstalled after few hours because they're so boring, unrealistic and just copying choices which started with Rome 2 (the same broken battle engine). This is my take 🙂

[@AndysTake]

That’s fine, I’m not asking you to like them, in fact I don’t like those games a whole lot either. But I hope you agree with the premise of the video, which is not about the quality of the games, but about how we treat other people with different opinions from us.

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

@@AndysTake True. No matter of opinion we should treat others with respect but sometimes harsh words can make the counteropinion stronger. We cannot behave like snowlakes and be offended by everything.

[@samuelaylmer804]

I can’t believe that anyone watched through the videos, I got 30 mins in to one and then realised my time is more valuable than most of the opinions shared.

[@ZoeySaysTransRights]

I grew up with Rome: Total War and Medieval II. Those games were my life, and the mods made them even better-Third Age: Total War for Medieval II especially. I sunk hundreds of hours into it, and it never got old. Mods gave those games crazy replay value, and honestly, that’s something the newer Total War games just don’t have in the same way. Yeah, I get it-Total War has slipped a bit lately, but it’s not like everything after Medieval II is trash. What actually drives me nuts, though, are people like Apolo and Volound who take their opinions and act like they’re the final word on Total War. It’s one thing to have criticisms, but they go overboard. Comparing people who like the newer games to addicts, saying it’s like a rebound relationship, even throwing around stuff like p*** addiction analogies? That’s just cringe and toxic. It comes off as pseudo-intellectual and low-key incel vibes. If you don’t like the newer games, fine, but trashing other fans like this just kills the community. It’s not about “defending the series”; it’s about some weird elitist gatekeeping. Like, let people enjoy things. Just because someone likes Three Kingdoms or Warhammer doesn’t make them less of a fan. We all got into Total War because we love strategy, history, and epic battles-not because we want to listen to people acting like their opinion is gospel.

[@sandsiren4840]

Thank you! Like fine hate the game not the player, it ruins communities and just gives off bad vibes

[@lordgong4980]

These guys(not LTW) are really just grifters at this point. I find myself agreeing with them sometimes because I'm a historical fan. BUT Volund made a statement in a video in which he stated creators that make Total War content were shills and anyone that was part of the Creator Program was the reason Total War was failing. I realized after that he wasn't to be taken seriously. All he does is make videos attacking or criticizing something

[@TheRingoism]

I've never been much a fan of Apollo and Volund but I agree with them on Total War and I'd like someone to explain to me why battles are good, post Rome 2. and what went wrong with this engine 11 years ago.

[@kielweiss3606]

You say "post-R2" when all TW games have been using the same battle engine since 2009 that was introduced with Empire. The engine was lambasted in '09 but instead of making a new engine after Napoleon they kept it for Shogun 2. S2 and FotS ended up being solid so it was forgotten but the engine collapsed under the weight of Rome 2 and every game since has had to deal with it. History out of the way, battles aren't any better or worse than they were before. Volound DOES do a good job show casing some coding that didn't get put into the Warscape Engine that was in the R1 engine like front units stepping out of the way of rear units trying to March thru them, but that's niche shit that wouldn't be marketed in the first place. Maps have just been made smaller to make battles faster so more battles can be fought in the same time span. Magic and monsters replaced Cav in WH which is fun in a fantasy game.

[@TheRingoism]

@@kielweiss3606 Pretty sure I replied to you but in essence I told you I knew about the engine coming in with Empire but someone decided to fuck with it during Rome 2 and every game has been shit since.

[@strategosaurus]

Ich mag Total War Troy wirklich sehr. Neben Three Kingdoms and Attila ist es einer meiner Lieblingsteile der Serie. Hate bringt uns hier nicht weiter. Ordentliche Kritik und Enttäuschung muss man akzeptieren. Es gibt genug gute Teile zu spielen. Und was gut ist interpretiert jeder für sich selbst.

[@AndysTake]

Sehr gut!

[@Captain_Mckeggor]

I dont get how anyone can say Total War Warhammer 3 is an "objectively" bad game. I was waiting for them to break that down but they only gave subjective opinions on the game. And they never even played the games.

[@AndysTake]

@@Captain_Mckeggor exactly

[@SlenderHime]

How can we avoid feeling frustrated with the increasing emphasis on fantasy elements when they undermine the core values of historical Total War? This shift not only diverts financial resources and labor hours but also risks diminishing the contributions of talented individuals who are passionate about historical authenticity. As a result, we are witnessing a gradual transformation where the essence of historical Total War seems to be overshadowed by fantasy themes, ultimately steering the franchise away from its roots. This evolution raises concerns about the future direction of the series and its commitment to genuine historical representation.

[@YeetThyBaby]

Its just a video game, and the historical ones are always going to be there to play so I don't really see where the frustration comes from. Fantasy elements in the newer games aren't affecting your experience in the older games?

[@BittermanAndy]

Recent historical Total Wars have been very poor (if not entirely non-existent), it's true. That's not a criticism of the Warhammer games, it's a criticism of CA. We ALL want CA to make good historical games... but that's not a reason for PA and Volound to attack Warhammer TW fans. Personally I didn't touch Troy or Pharaoh because they look terrible, and I played 3K for about 3 minutes before giving up on it. None of them are what (we probably both agree) a historical TW game should be. The solution? Make the next historical game better... Warhammer can still do its thing.

[@YeetThyBaby]

@@BittermanAndy I mean if people are going into games that are based on fictional stories/ mythology expecting a realistic historical experience it's pretty clear where they're going wrong to me. The last actual attempt at a historical total war game was Attila, Troy and Pharoah are a bit out there for my taste but Three Kingdoms goes so hard in every way, especially if you play on records mode.

[@lunaris3983]

Personally I think making fantasy games was genius and, despite a lot of bumps along the way, Warhammer III is among the greatest Total War games. There's just so many unique mechanics and roleplaying opportunities.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

only if you like jank where a single hero can slay entire army dbz style just not serious ...

[@Lanthirrhos]

@@jessicalacasse6205 You may need to play more total war games. the number of times a single general until can route an entire army... or a stack of peasants can beat almost any other army in the game... And jank? Pick literally any total war. Don't be an Apollo and Volound. Whatever game you like best aint any better shit than what OP liked.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

@@Lanthirrhos rome to rome2 general were like king in chess were losing it lost you the battle and the fact i need to explain this to you mean you only played warhammer with flying infantry if you look them wrong ...

[@jessicalacasse6205]

@@Lanthirrhos so many vids of 1 man doomstack ...

[@walnutpants3600]

Not correct, I have many fond memories lf soloing full enemy armies with my generals in Rome 1 and Medieval 2. Literally the most powerful units in the game.

[@jamesbok8385]

Honestly, I feel like they shot themselves in the foot by not making that WW1 total war game.

[@hermannsalza1191]

Still waiting for the Bug faction in Pharao

[@JaySee-sr1yj]

what is this cope, every game post warhammer has just been a warhammer reskin the reasons the games are so bad now is because they are just copying warhammer. "I'm okay with warhammer dood let them enjoy things" well I hope you also like warhammer because every game is just warhammer reskinned. Not pushing back against this is exactly why things are the way they are, even legend admits that warhammers is not good and he gets most of his enjoyment from breaking it. The fall of Total War persists because this is the way people are looking at things, and it has been this way since rome 2.

[@AndysTake]

People pushed back hard, and CA Sophia spent a year upgrading Pharaoh for free, lowered the price of the game itself, and pushed that base experience in a vastly more traditional direction. It’s a great game now, even on the battlefield where it feels a lot better than before. It’s not perfect, but people have pushed back and it has garnered results. And none of that was Volound’s or Apollo’s doing, who didn’t even play the game to be able to criticize in a genuine way.

[@JaySee-sr1yj]

Stop Making fun of people who love slop dood, its their choice to love slop dood, its called being a decent human being dood!!! This attitude is how we ended up here, if you put up with slop then its slop you will receive, Total War is dead as long as this mindset persists.

[@AB-uq8yh]

People don’t agree with you. The popularity of the Warhammer total wars prove that. Maybe, just maybe - don’t call the majority group stupid or slop enjoyers and offer actual criticism and feedback. Maybe CA would listen to you. But you won’t. You’ll continue to hate everyone for likening something you don’t. Enjoy being ignored and never getting another historical game.

[@JaySee-sr1yj]

@AB-uq8yh even Legend recognizes it is slop, the analogy he used was that warhammer was like a trough full of ice cream. The fact that everyone is praising slop means that everything will continue and persist as it is. The only way for things to improve is if most people realize that it is slop and stop pretending it isn't, and to vote with their wallets. However warhammer fans are unable to do this for many reasons so we are where we are.

[@AB-uq8yh]

@ seriously, keep doing this. Enjoy feeling better than everyone else. When M3 eventually comes out and it’s not what you want, remember you helped make it. CA loathes you and this community. You hate everything when (as PA admitted) you don’t even play it. How in the fuck can you hate something you don’t play? I don’t hate Fortnite because it’s not something I know about. You are also all ignorant to the actual TW community. There’s no criticism? There’s no feedback? Do you watch ANY TW KZbinr other than the historical side? Have you even attempted? SOC is a great example of feedback. But nah, you all made up your minds and think everyone else is wrong. Truly, the historical side is just embarrassing.

[@arturg3333]

​@@AB-uq8yh Volound, Apollo or Dishonorable Daimyo have made plenty of videos with fair criticism and feedback for CA, you're just a dumbass consoomer who clearly never touched any of their content, likely afraid of what you would hear in there.

[@JT_Infantry]

I like you Andy. But I completely agree with Apollo and Volound on this. Warhammer and Rome 2 has probably ruined future historical titles. Total war most likely dead and not coming back on the historical side.

[@AndysTake]

I'm not disagreeing that Rome 2 probably ruined future historical titles, in fact I say this in this very video, so I think you agree with me, actually.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

Warhammer was clearly made for warhammer fans, we didn’t ask CA to bleed mechanics into historical games. Literally no one asked for that shit and we don’t like Troy/Pharoah/3 Kingdoms. Apollo called warhammer fans lowest denominator consumers, he’s clearly upset about getting replaced.

[@AndysTake]

@@sercravenmohead3631 getting replaced? Hmm what kind of forums do you frequent

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@ I’m not saying literally like that’s happening nor do I wish that to be the case but it comes off as an accusation coming from PA or Vollound that we as fans of warhammer hijacked the total war franchise. I’m just being defensive on that point, I’m not in any forums and to know where I’m coming from I am a fan of warhammer TW but also historical (the good ones), I just don’t think it’s not fair for these guys to say that about warhammer fans or even fans of the newer games. While technically this may be true in CA’s trends like they’re catering more specifically to us making historical more like warhammer but in general we didn’t ask for that, I don’t even play the other new titles because my interest is in warhammer and the stuff they did before.

[@harrisoncurtis204]

Bringing Warhammer fantasy mechanics into Troy kind of made sense, as Troy is borderline historical fantasy/fiction with characters like Achilles, I actually enjoyed the iterations that gave you an option to lean into the fantasy side of the Iliad, or to lean toward realism. Bringing these features into any other historical setting though is just cringe

[@guidokreeuseler9566]

I don't put a lot of stock in Pixelated Apollo's opinion on this. The guy questions other's intelligence but can barely read or retain information himself. I used to watch his content a few years ago but got extremely annoyed by him apparently needing to relearn the same game over and over in each episode of a campaign as if he never played it before. Also, he has been on the Total War Hate-train since at least 2016. I think Legend has the wiser take in the "Total War ain't doing well" discourse. Doesn't disparage Warhammer or fantasy, but has a more systemic critique of the recent design and release strategy of total war.

[@irishleonidas2274]

Good stuff. I thought it was a cool idea until most of the videos became kinda hateful. Also, pass this conversation to the left hand side.

[@thorkildsparre]

real bro

[@cynfaelalek-walker7003]

47:40 The Sale of 3K & Warhammer had nothing to do with the games themselves as much as the IPs.

[@tahahadada1936]

I don't see the issue with Total war TW Empire is the only issue ,but other than that all games are liked by thousands . I don't 3k ,I don't like Troy I don't like pharoh ,I don't like medieval 2 and Rome 1 or the remastered but that doesn't mean they are bad games.

[@KS-gi2so]

I love the TW warhammer titles. I love the historical titles. I am honestly not sure which I love more. Probably equally, however I find myself visiting the historical titles less due to bugs and difficulty to control your armies or difficulty on campaign. I find fantasy battles way more interesting as I'm a massive D&D fan, for me theres just way more to do in fantasy battles. Now the TW warhammer titles have had their own troubles but from my experience a lot less. Also Apollo and especially his friends like Lionheart got me obsessed with the TW warhammer games as well as the Lord of the Rings mod for Medieval II. I grew up with Apollo's Medieval II Lord of the Rings mod videos. With Lionhearts TW warhammer videos. I havent watched Apollo in many years. Im not too sure why I stopped watching him however from the things im hearing in this video and reading from the comments, I think he's strayed a bit from just having fun and seems to actually be talk shit to certain fans and creators. Now Apollo always talked shit, but it was to enemies in a game, he had an amazing way to give a battle drama and life. Talk shit the enemies Apollo, not fellow TW fans. Know your real enemy Apollo, the filthy Orcs. -Love to Apollo and TW as well as its fans and content creators from a fellow fan.

[@AndysTake]

Well said, my friend!

[@dannyalex5866]

Peace for the series

[@locarnus255]

The first part about that trilogy discussion from Legend, Apollo and Volound is true. That discussion started out interesting and later devolved into one guy already being in a corner while still being relentless pushed for no good reason. Practically 2 guys gatekeeping what 1 guy should be allowed to find fun. Funny that your video follows a similar trajectory. It went downhill when you tried to gatekeep what others talk about or criticize (leading up to and after 19:30). Companies put trailers out so viewers can pre-judge a game, that is the entire point! People don't have to taste something to be allowed to criticize the look, feel and smell.

[@malice9830]

There's a lot of medieval 3 soaks

[@o_migl]

my guy, is not that serious... I really can't fathom this "community". I know content is slow, but surely CA will announce another DLC, don't worry.

[@Greatiger030]

Never liked Volound. He’s an egomaniac, what he likes and what he does is what everyone else should like (or dislike). I try to watch his videos and can’t just stand it. The only thing that I like from his channel is the “disaster battles” he does in shogun 2, he knows what he does there but that’s it.

[@mcsmash4905]

volound is very often right but his behavior means that nobody will listen to him either and he fails to grasp the fact that for some people the issues that he lists are not dealbreakers

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Volound does have many good points in his videos and he points out the major flaws in the warscape engine quite well. Problem is though the way he comes across and interacts with the community is cow muck.

[@animegaming4057]

I can explain Apollo’s thinking, as I see, along with myself, getting older. This seems to be a mid life crises thing, where our old way was way better than the new hotness. I heard this take from a KZbinr called final fantasy peasant, great dude, very philosophical, but same concept of, “games are too easy nowadays. I remember when we used to have to retrek to the boss and having to fight the whole thing over. Now, it saves mid fight so you don’t get punished anymore. I made a convincing argument where I’ll copy and paste my response below, but Apollo is stuck in the past. The glory days. And that’s not a bad thing, as I remember when games came in full, and not piece meal feed us cut content and called it DLC. Never thought I’d see the day that we’d be praising games for costumes that is earnable in game, like in Stellar Blade (over 70 different clothing, from riskay to style), or being angry at games that don’t, like the Avengers game where every alternate costume you had to buy (until the last update where they gave everybody everything). But I’m not trapped and consistently consuming content that I despise. I know what I dislike, and I avoid it. I don’t like battle royals so I don’t play them, I don’t like sports games and it’s predatory nature of gambling, so I don’t support them, I don’t like the treatment of riot games’ workers so I don’t give their games a time of day, easy for me, but Apollo has made total war his life, and it’s the only thing that brings him some merit. He hasn’t moved on. That’s what is causing this small lash out. As he is The total war guy. Hasn’t been able to adapt to the changes. Much like AI generated content. It’s here to stay. Either adapt and use the new tool that is bestowed upon us, or be left behind by technology. Time and progress doesn’t stop. If CA gets shut down because of their business practices, it will be their fault and we’d all would agree, it won’t be a surprise. But a company is just a name, and they made a product that we liked. Thats it. There doesn’t need to be any emotion attached to a corporation or a cult like following of a particular box that we game on. We are nothing but numbers to them, so we should treat them as a soulless building. Apollo, when he did space commentary on Age of Empire’s matches, he was really good and entertaining, but he went straight back to total war and forgot all about it. More than several chances were given to him, where he can rebrand his channel, but he chose to stick to the poison that’s making him sick. Final thoughts, all of this is to say, Apollo isn’t wrong, but he went about it in a slightly toxic way. I’m still subbed to him, and will forever be a loyal knight, however, I’ve stopped being addicted to the content produced, as it has gotten stale, and for a long time, always bashing the game he’s commenting on. Like if there’s a glitch in a battle of Rome 2, he will be snarky and say something like, ‘oh there’s that poor optimization Rome 2 again’.

[@AndysTake]

A good analysis.

[@animegaming4057]

@@AndysTake my response to the other KZbinr. At 3:35 As theoden put it at helms deep… “So it begins”, now, I’m not like others who will leave short enraged comments, I like to lay out facts/examples from all over the place to make you think about your position, and think about others. The ‘challenge’ debate has strong arguments on both sides, but what you’re arguing for is (take politics out of the word) a conservative ideal. The old way was better. These youngens don’t know challenge, everything is handed to them. You’re right when it comes to competing against another team. Like for me, participation trophies like you get when you play soccer as a younger lad, I’m against that, because people do need to learn how to lose. Or something like rainbow six siege where being slow and methodical on how you approach each map, you learn all the peaks and weakness of both attacking and defending by losing on a consistent level. We agree on this 100%. The problem starts when you’re talking about single player. For starters, the Elden ring/dark souls in general, not having a pause button. This is an insensible over sight for the sake of just being an ass on your time. It could be as simple as, the pizza arrived and your in the middle of a boss fight, to having a kid and he runs straight into the wall because they don’t know better and starts crying. That loss, is unavoidable and the game disrespects your time that you slotted for this game. This make shift difficulty does need to change, but it’s pretty much only in dark souls so not a big deal. The bigger issue, comes when people try to despair others because they arnt enjoying the game the way you are enjoying it. Not everyone has the mind of you. For example, me. I have a disability where it takes me several sessions of any brand new game, to learn its mechanics. Within 15ish minutes, I start getting dizzy and have to take a break from a brand new game, and play something I’ve already learned. I know exactly how it is for people who don’t have a sharp mind. With your line of thinking, you’re saying, people like me should not enjoy certain games because you’re not normal. This isn’t to guilt trip you, I’m just opening your mind up to others. Elden ring has given a wider audience the ability to make the difficulty their own. That’s why it’s the most successful game they have to date, it’s the freedom to do what they want. You can spawn in and go challenge the first elder boss if you so wish and skip the entire first area. That is not everyone’s mentality. The difficulty you put on you, only affects you. Much like when people buy a fancy new car, they can either enjoy the car by going from A to B following the law, or you can go speed down the street. The speeding is far more fun, but you’re risking you and others. Following the law is the easy path, the other is far more exciting. Or, to put it another way, you’re building a home deck let’s say. Do you get more satisfaction from using manual tools? Or power tools? Manual tools I promise, is far more satisfying as you put all your effort in, but power tools gets you done quicker so you can enjoy your deck within 6 hours, and not 18. Plus the power tools is far more safer and has safety measures built in to keep your fingers and help you measure. Manual, you are far more likely to make a mistake. Games have gotten a lot easier for sure, but that’s because we basically played tested the hell out of the first beta’s (also, do you say Bayda’s or Beta’s? I say bayda’s lol). We struggled so our future generations do not struggle. That’s the whole point of life isn’t it? To bring the point home, we should always teach our kids/those around us who are younger, the meaning of struggle. For damn sure. But much like the invention of the internet which made things way easier, why wouldn’t you be happy that, instead of fixing a problem by trial and error, they just looked it up and payed attention to someone who knows what they are doing, and fix it within 15 minutes? Like to bring back your fav, final fantasy 15, those damn rainbow frogs. Your hint was, go find them, they are near bodies of water… I ain’t wasting my time with that, I looked it up. Does that make me a fake platinum completionist of that game because I didn’t want to find frogs? That’s for you to decide I guess, but I know I had equally as much fun as anyone else. What people need to pass down in every household of every family is, work smarter not harder. Edit: There is that fine line between, using the mechanics given, and cheating. It’s the whole reason why I basically quit all multiplayer competitive games, because cheating has gone rampant. Other players affected my enjoyment of the game, and it hurts my ability to learn because, the only solution is to get my own cheats so I can compete. That pisses me off and those players need to learn how to lose and learn like everybody else. But again, if it’s single player, it doesn’t matter. Like, if someone wants to use aim bot for a call of duty campaign, fine, they are a stinky gamer, but it has no bearing on you or me. They bought the product, they can use it like they like. Basically, I’m pro-freedom as long as there is no infringing on my inalienable rights. You want to cheat on your time, fine, not interested in watching. I can leave whenever and enjoy my games. When talking about games in general, unless you’re working to get on an EA sports team, MLG, or working to get into a tournament, games are just entertaining. Nothing more, nothing less. People come home stressed from their daily activities, no reason for them to not find the escape. People enjoy things in different ways. I like to make show for people, to show the game at its fullest potential and showing off every mechanic. You like being the paint for the floor as the bosses smash you every square inch of the arena. Both are viable. I know for the both of us, we don’t like being told how to win or play, or even life, being told what to do. So why do this onto others? (This can go onto politics as well, but not the subject.)

[@aaronlewis702]

They're right though. The series in terms of game mechanics has gone to shit, lots of bells and whistles, but it's a far inferior series than it omce was. Doesn't matter if you don't like their attitude, their argument is undeniable.

[@370zUsurper]

"Pharoah Dynasty is legitimately great game." 😬

[@bestintheworld4850]

It is, but why would someone care if he already has Total War Warhammer 3? The same thing with Troy, why did people care if they already had Warhammer 2? And if you want historic/ whatever, you have Medieval 2, Shogun 2 or even Rome 2, all are worth more your time imo.

[@kingmarre9130]

It is

[@sausagesausage]

Dynasty is fantastic... So many great elements implemented.

[@DJ-1Q84]

Calling a podcast "blunt rotation" is hilarious. Something tells me if someone offered you a joint you'd run away and call the cops.

[@kanakakku]

You calling Andy a pussy?

[@cynfaelalek-walker7003]

54:02 comparing The Warhammer games to vices is quite correct, rn, since it's mostly reskins of same old stuff and is not treated with care, if you play Warhammer with mods you're really getting something otherwise you're just paying for low quality stuff.

[@AB-uq8yh]

I’m sorry, but this is delusional.

[@thesiberianproductions3748]

Gotta say its a bit ironic that Apollo never named any total war youtuber and yet here you are bashing him by name for the crime of... bashing total war youtubers. The thing is, free speech goes both ways. Apollo and Volound can think a game is objectively bad. You can disagree. Legend can kind of agree and also disagree. Yes its okay to enjoy what you enjoy. Its also okay to not think people should enjoy something or not understand why they do.

[@sureucan9366]

Facts and he probably won't like your comment for common sense

[@sandsiren4840]

By your same logic he can also make a video on their approach.

[@thesiberianproductions3748]

@sandsiren4840 yup, which is why I just said I found it ironic, not that he is shouldn't or can't make the video

[@sandsiren4840]

@ u kinda missed tho point tho, the argument is “let’s not attack people for their preferences”

[@AndysTake]

Apollo - a creator with over 900k subscribers (I have 68k) - put himself out there with controversial language, and I make a response to him. I cannot make a response if people have no idea who I'm talking about, Apollo's entire game with those videos is getting views, and likely, to get responses like mine. I didn't mention one word on free speech, what are you even referring to here? Also, it's not ironic at all to say "stop bullying people" to a bully - that's not the same as bullying someone. This isn't difficult to understand.

[@aidanmcnary-hickey6778]

Yeah gotta disagree with you chief, Total War has indeed shit the bed, everything is a clone of Warhammer, same tired boring mechanics, yeah campaign mechanics have gotten deeper for sure and that’s good, but the battles are so cheap shallow and lazy now. It’s not the same and won’t ever be with their current lazy money printing model

[@AndysTake]

@@aidanmcnary-hickey6778 where did I say the battles weren’t shallow now? In fact I think you agree with me! That’s not what this video was about

[@TheBranchez]

Those 3 videos were an incredible waste of time. Apollo and Volund just hating without saying anything meaningful or providing any evidence or whatever and Legend having no clue on how to defend his position or explain why he actually likes the game. He is only able to repeat time and time again that he wants to exploit bugs and "brake" the game. I find that disgusting to be honest, but I do not mind people playing whatever the fuck they want, however the fuck they want.

[@l.s.9095]

Very based video (in a good way). I found it admirable who well you discuss the topic and I think I agree with all of your points! Well done :)

[@AndysTake]

thank you so much, glad to hear it! :)

[@winchelseabeach4863]

that title though

[@lukedumoulin8204]

While I was watching the 3 parts, I realized that Apollo has become really toxic about the whole thing. He's so intent on being right that he doesn't leave room for people to like their games. He has fond memories of the good old days, which I can't blame him for, but it tarnishes his views on the newer games. I also think its super pretentious to go on and on about titles like troy and pharoh despite never playing them. Quite frankly, I prefer the experience when playing Pharoh: Dynasties than the base version of Rome, or Medieval 2. I definitely think that CA should introduce some features from the older gen games, like population, and having unit abilities that are exclusive to the unit, that is based in history. Felt pretty bad for Legend throughout the podcast, Apollo and Volund seemed like vengeful old crowd. or the ghosts of christmas, or the 3 stooges. they're just mad and express it poorly and hurt people in the process For referrence, I suppose I am part of a newer generation of fans, but I've been playing TW games for 7 years now, exclusively the historical titles cause that's where my interests are.

[@lt.danicecream]

Been playing TW since Medieval 1. I got Pharoah because it was on sale recently and in my opinion, its a great game. Its too bad the game did not release in its current form

[@AndysTake]

@@lt.danicecream absolutely!

[@robinshood6530]

Yeah my interpretation of entire conversation is opposite of you all. Appollo and Volound weren't "denigrating" legend for liking Warhammer. They were just trying to understand why he likes Warhammer, which he literally doesn't come up with any other reason than "i can break the game". Lighten up, it was a playful conversation and you're all so soft you can't get past a little nitpick good god.

[@TheLEDkiller]

If I like the new stuff they added in Pharaoh but I still feel like the game is boring af (like all recent TWs), where does that put me? :|

[@AndysTake]

@@TheLEDkiller puts you into the category of being a thinking human being! That’s a totally valid position to hold, personally I don’t have that much fun in pharaoh unless I play as the Greeks or the Mesopotamians

[@TheLEDkiller]

@@AndysTake I do enjoy Warhammer 3 tho, but I'm mostly playing Rome 2 with DEI or WH3 with the Grimhammer mod nowadays, idk... I really want to enjoy the new TWs but I just feel more and more disinterested in the series with passing time 😞

[@zacharyraut151]

I think apollos a good guy and he really wants CA to be successful but just think it can’t be. On the other hand it seems like volound really would rather it fail just so he can be proved right. Just my opinion.

[@FatBunny168]

Simply remove the stupid magic butt ladders and warhammer 3 suddenly become a good total war game.....but NOOOO, CA keep having magic ladder from butthole for 3 entire GAMES~!!!!!

[@kielweiss3606]

"Magic butt *grappling hooks* were in Shogun 2 and no one complained, and sieges overall in S2 are well liked. The butt ladders aren't the issues with sieges in WH/newer titles.

[@thadmeboy1129]

I think the biggest disconnect is that 98% of people will not notice a large difference between the battles in medieval 2 and total war warhammer 3. So most of the debate isnt over the mechanics like they talk about but rather the setting itself

[@slothkong5792]

You could say that but it wou0pldnt explain why most of the recent historical games built off the warscape engine have failed critically, just check player numbers and you will see the historical playerbase not engaging with the new games as much. At the end of the day play what u want but its fair game to complain if the games made for your market are constantly missing the mark. Complaining and refusing to buy are the only tools that playerbase have to shift CA's direction back to producing games that actually make the historical market happy and not what CA thinks will make the historical market happy.

[@thadmeboy1129]

@slothkong5792 I think a big reason for games like Pharoah failing is more so a lack of content and polish at launch not just because the battles are different from previous games. Also a big thing is that most of the people wo would have played pharaoh see content creators say the game is bad and see it being a commercial failure and don't even bother. I'm not saying there is no difference but I am saying that for most people the difference is minimal.

[@JonasValanciounas]

You don't need to diss them like this. Besides beign hypocritical, it adds nothing to the discussion and spreds more hate. They were having a unscripted discussion, obviously some points are going to come across as confusing or too biased. I disagree with the way Volound and Apollo voice their oppinios sometimes but I think that with the way CA disregards fans sometimes justifies it.

[@AndysTake]

@@JonasValanciounas so it’s okay to demonized people as long as it’s unscripted? My video was unscripted too, you didn’t see me calling loads of people bad names because they liked something

[@sercravenmohead3631]

PA called Warhammer fans lowest denominator consumers in his first video for “CA has fallen”

[@JonasValanciounas]

@@AndysTake I've seen all the videos, I get it. I don't agree with all the hating on Warhammer fans the way they do as well, they should stop. But despite that, they do bring very valid points about the current state of the franchise. I agree with all the points you made as well, but I just don't think you should point the finger and imply bad youtuber good youtuber. All this drama in the community is tiresome and takes us nowhere.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

fantasy was a gadget and you cant keep people with gadget ...(people have left totalwar wh 1 ) while people still play rome ...

[@waywatcher7788]

How much revenue has CA made on Rome: Total War in 2024? Contrast that with the fact that the company is almost entirely propped up by WHIII DLC. How many current players does Rome: Total War have on Steam compared to WHIII? How much of a "gadget" has the Total War: Warhammer series been for it to have launched three separate games and over a dozen DLC? Not everyone thinks like you do, so stop gatekeeping and "yucking" other people's "yum." You're not more important or discerning than anyone else.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

@@waywatcher7788 23 to 3 k but you compare to a 20 year old game( just compare paradox game they are older but alot more player ) ... if you compare against modern game you game cant even compete with eurotruck simulator so it is not the cash cow you think ...

[@waywatcher7788]

@@jessicalacasse6205 Why are you moving the goalposts? You claimed fantasy is a "gadget" which can't hold people's attention. I pointed out WHIII's decade of success (specifically financially). It doesn't need to be Baldur's Gate 3 to be the sole reason CA still exists today. Which entirely disproves your asinine statement. Stop gatekeeping games that you, personally, don't like. You're not the arbiter of fun.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

@@waywatcher7788 i prove you wh3 aint the succes you want it to be ...people play paradox gamess 3x to 4x compare to total war games and like 5x to 6x to other modern game and like 10x to 12 to aaa game ... for a game that costed you 150 $ you in a toxic relation and keep defending it which is sad ... more vids about how total war suck now than other so you losing player not gaining new one even payed one liked legend gave it up for more popular totalwar games ...

[@jessicalacasse6205]

proved