Tough Love from the Book of Mormon - A Conversation with Grant Hardy

Book of Mormon scholar Grant Hardy knows that there are lots of different views about what The Book of Mormon is-how it came to be, how credible its origin story and originator are, and what its value is to Latter-day Saints, and to the world.
Though he himself falls firmly on the side of belief, he believes the approach of the Book as sacred text asks its reader to consider that “every word or phrase may hold existentially significant meaning” - regardless of exactly how one views the Book’s origins and historical value.
That’s the perspective that he brings to a newly produced work, The Annotated Book of Mormon, a remarkably thorough and rich exploration of The Book of Mormon which is the first “fully annotated, academic edition of the Book… in its 200-year history,” and which was published by Oxford University Press.
We loved talking with Grant, and for us, some of the most powerful moments of the conversation were his reflections on how the Book of Mormon is calling us, as a people, to hold up the mirror and ask what we can do better. You’ll hear Grant specifically bring up the topic of how we as a church use and disclose our financial resources. We want to note that this part of the conversation is challenging-and while the views Grant shares, like those of all guests we have, are his own, we really appreciate his vulnerability and willingness to engage these tough issues. We know not everybody’s going to agree on this, and we’re very aware of our inadequacy in navigating difficult topics. We hope that one thing we can do at Faith Matters is to help keep conversations going in good faith, and that’s what we tried to do here, however imperfectly.
We really encourage you to pick up the Annotated Book of Mormon, which does an amazing job of making this text easier to study and understand by reformatting it with headers, punctuation markers, and paragraph styles in line with modern bible translations. Grant is donating all royalties for the book to the Humanitarian Aid Fund of the LDS Church.
Grant is a Professor of History & Religious Studies at UNC Asheville, where he’s taught since 1994.

[@michellecreek403]

My husband and I had the privilege of knowing Grant and Heather as young married students at BYU. They taught the Gospel Doctrine class in our ward, and even then they were challenging us to look at the scriptures with fresh eyes and "close reading." It is wonderful to see the fruits of the intervening decades of study and faith in their lives, and to be able to benefit from their dedication to the Book of Mormon and the Savior. Thank you for continuing to live lives of integrity, Grant and Heather, and thank you for allowing us to share in the conversation, Tim and Aubrey!

[@sagewilliams8275]

This was such an inspiring, thought-provoking conversation. I feel excited about where we as a Church can move forward and I feel motivated to be a part of it. Grant Hardy, thank you for living with so much integrity and for choosing to courageously share your candid thoughts and hopes. Aubrey and Tim, thank you for preparing so intentionally to be in a position to have this conversation.

[@johnrider4301]

I respect and admire Brother Hardy’s sincerity. He inspires me to expect more of myself while feeling loved by the Lord. I am proud that he is of our faith. Thank you Brother Hardy.

[@barbarastrate8388]

I LOVED the bit where he talked about the humanitarian, $, consumerism, etc, about minute 40 to 51. GOOD JOB! A VERY NEEDED MESSAGE!

[@davidstout6051]

I’ve been using his annotated BoM to teach the adult Sunday school class. It is very well done and an invaluable resource for me. As someone who converted after 35 years as a pastor I particularly appreciate his recognition that accepting the BoM’s historicity is not always easy for newcomers to the book. More power to him. And many thanks.

[@cheryledstrom9860]

I am so thankful for so much of what was said here by Grant. Especially his words about the Book of Mormon calling us to a higher space of justice, and that includes our modern love of money and ignorance of the privilege that benefits us but harms others in the world. And I had just said to my husband, "I wish the Book of Mormon could be revised into modern standard language like the Bible," and then Aubrey said it! Also, after a few Google searches, I confirmed that this IS the Grant Hardy that grew up in the same Stake I did, but I was closer in age to his younger brother. Hi, Grant!

[@cotajm]

Thank you for this wonderful interview. I think it was one of the most thought provoking I’ve heard. Especially stating around min 42, Grant was able express a feeling I’ve been struggling with for awhile, we have work to do individually and collectively.

[@thawts9087]

I appreciate his call to action for the Church and us (humanity) to do more to alleviate the suffering of the poor and marginalized. However, the mission of the Church goes beyond being just another humanitarian fund. I would argue that conversion to the Gospel does more to lift individuals and countries out of poverty than any government program or humanitarian aid. I saw it as a missionary in a developing country, as individuals experienced their conversion, a light was lit in them with an understanding that they could control and lift themselves up. Humanitarian aid is wonderful, aid to the soul makes it even better.

[@minaguta4147]

We can argue about this, but it should be beyond argument that the Church be transparent in its finances.

[@thawts9087]

@@minaguta4147 I appreciate your concern, how do you think the Church isn't transparent in its finances? Personally, I don't worry about the Church's finances at all. I pay tithing because I love God and he has commanded me to. He has abundantly blessed me for keeping that commandment. I have faith in Christ and trust him in his calling of imperfect men to run his Church. If there is mismanagement, those involved will be accountable to God, not to me. Again though, the money of the Church is not the mission of the Church. They could give all their money away and it would be forgotten in a week. The Gospel transforms lives in a way that goes beyond quantifying.

[@Brandonag]

Grant Hardy is amazing. Thanks for sharing!

[@millerkdm]

Thank you Aubrey and Tim for this interview. Grant Hardy is a personal hero of mine because he would take time from his busy schedule to talk to me, a sinner and apostate. He truly believes and practices the principles of love, which are of utmost importance to me, and which I would hope spread more widely throughout the lds church. It was also nice to hear him say that the lds church should be more transparent and focus its wealth more on helping others, and I would include accepting and loving others (i.e. outsiders) in that focus. From my perspective, the lds church appears to be run primarily by its public relations department, and that makes me sad, because it is my heritage, and somehow I still love it, and I expect better from it.

[@JaneHallstrom1]

As a former member of the Asheville NC Stake I remember Brother Hardy fondly. 👋 It sounds like his new book will broaden the wider world of religious scholarship as well as deepen the study and understanding of Book of Mormon believers. On the topic of new doctrines brought to Christianity by this unique and holy book of scripture, I like the way the Book of Mormon removes the power of faith from the strictures of time. I think it’s unique from the Bible in this way. It makes very clear that Christ’s atoning sacrifice was just as efficacious to save men and women from sin who were looking forward in time as it is for those of us looking back at the events of Christ’s mission in the past. If the power of faith in Christ works in hindsight, the book makes clear that it was just as powerful in foresight. I love this doctrine and it was such a kick in the head when I first grasped it! Maybe it’s in the Bible too, but I only got it by studying the Book of Mormon. 🙏

[@KatieHerrmann1991]

This was really lovely to behold and it was a lot of good stuff to digest. Grant’s words deeply resonated with me. As a non member that appreciates Latter Day Saint thought its reflections and hard conversations like this that remind me why it’s so important to listen to and honor those outside of our bubbles and echo chambers. Well done FM team, thank you for bringing such wonderful content to us.

[@faithmattersfoundation]

Thank you so much, Katie! 🙏

[@lw1959]

Great conversation! Thank you!

[@minaguta4147]

This interview went from very good to amazing when Grant called for transparency of church finances, based on Book of Mormon teachings. BRAVO, GRANT!

[@kirkweeden6281]

Great interview. Big fan of Hardy's refreshing maturity toward the canon and church. I see real value for the modern church in the wrestle with the scriptures he models - challenging the text and allowing the text to challenge us. It's a dynamic, meaningful and grounded approach.

[@BL-ue3sp]

Really loved this interview. I am 80 pages into Hardy's Annotated Book of Mormon and am loving all the amazing insights, especially in the Isaiah chapters. Massive amount of work and research involved. Thank you Grant, in case you read this. I also really appreciated his comments regarding being more Christ-like and less money focused. There are things the church does well and things they/we don't. I would include the lack of attention and lack of programing for individuals with disabilities to the list of things we don't do well in the church. I agree that the ward level is the best places to affect change, but unfortunately in a top-down church, local leaders are often reluctant (and too busy) to go out on a limb.

[@mikecarver8166]

I enjoy your conversations because I like hearing differing opinions. I appreciate Mr. Hardys candor. I speak with much candor myself. And he also tempers that with humility and compassion which I also appreciate. Now a couple of things. I really dislike those two words "Social Justice". They bring a bunch of negative connotations to mind. I don't know if I consider the BofM a book on "social justice". However, it is largely a book with egalitarian ideals. It's hard to make everything "equal" without bringing the "privileged" to a poorer level to match those who are poor. The church teaches and I believe in lifting everyone I can up to where I live. Social justice sees those who are better off, usually because of hard work, give to those who have no desire to contribute to society (in many cases). The gospel helps change people to lift themselves up and be better. Second, concerning church finances. How do we know the Lord is not behind the church finances? The church lost a whole bunch of money and it's members lost everything they own because of persecution. I think the way the church has gone from financial ruin to its current resources is a badge of honor. I believe God drives that for whatever reason He has. The church is a leader among all current denominations to help with money and resources all over the world when needed. We can do more than one thing with those church finances. I have faith in the brethren and if they misuse it they're accountable for that but I think they are very aware of those sacred funds and how they're spent. Again, I'll keep listening because I always appreciate your great questions and your guests even if I don't always agree. And by the way, that includes stepping back at times and asking myself why I feel a certain way. Is it strictly the way I was raised. Or tradition? Or am I centered in christ? Grant mentioned his love for Nephi often and Nephi’s whole intent he said, is bringing us to Christ. That is where our focus should be. And the Book of Mormon does it better than any book out there realizing also the Book of Mormon authors were very aware of their weaknesses. Thank you.

[@StuartPearson-p6j]

I enjoyed Grants perspective and admire his scholarship. Very impressive. Regarding his opinions about church finances. While I respect his opinion, I don't think church finance resources are mismanaged. If Grant was a member of the quorum of the twelve, he might modify some of his opinions. I believe that revelation to prophets, seers, and revelators is real and that the church is organized the way it is for a devine purpose. I don't think Grant would disagree.

[@cheryledstrom9860]

I don't think he said they were mismanaged. He advocated for more transparency as well as a shift in focus from "rainy day" savings to doing more charitable work now.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

I went through a phase where my trust in the historicity of the Book of Mormon was very low, and I decided that I could still treat it as true in the sense of being a salvific myth. Knowing about the bull's-eye geographical correspondences in Arabia helped, as did letting go of any emotional attachment to any particular New World geographical model. Engaging the book again in that faith - taking it seriously - has since rewarded me with a stronger conviction of its truth - including historicity - than I had before. Reading the Skousen edition of the Earliest Text (with Grant's intro) helped with this, and that led me to learn more about the linguistic character of the book that Skousen and Carmack have been bringing to light. Don Bradley's book on the lost pages and Jerry Grover's work with the "Caractors" document have strengthened my conviction too. I used to think Joseph put ideas into his own words and I have quite abandoned that idea. Just how the translator agent worked I accept as still mysterious, but the linguists have cast enough light on it as a creative agent that I hold it in awe. People talk as if that kind of intellectual stuff doesn't matter. Yea, I admit it is not the same as a spiritual conviction, but I suspect that for many it is necessary to prepare them for the spiritual conviction. To see how rich the Book of Mormon is and how it rewards intellectual analysis is a good inoculation against the cheap shots from critics about Joseph's fanciful imagination. The more I dig in to what the book actually offers, the more "frankly pathetic" (to quote Jeff Holland) sound the criticisms and alternative scenarios of its origin. Just this morning I was reading in Alma and I thought about all the layers of transmission the words had to go through: someone had to transcribe them at the time, or remember them to write down later. Who knows how many times they got copied on other media before the record-keeper wrote on the plates which Mormon used to compile his narration hundreds of years later? Mormon was not an omniscient narrator, and he admits this. If the people who were writing things down accepted the reports of events in every particular (notably Ether's chronicle), it doesn't mean we have to. They were not omniscient narrators. An omniscient narrator is a device of fiction. When we were children we thought as children and we read the scriptures as if they were written by omniscient narrators, but that's untenable if we want to keep growing in the knowledge of that which is just and true. When people lose their faith and leave, it's not because they were engaging scripture with their intellect, it's because they were holding a brittle faith that relied on regarding scripture as unquestionable while reading it as fiction (the infallible account of omniscient narrators). Nephi's vision is a good example of that (including Mary and the latter-day Gentiles as "white" - consider in context of the Tree. What if whiteness is belief in Christ and blackness is merely symbolic?): it was a *vision* and we don't have to take it as a time-traveling TV camera! Also, the scriptures are soaked in blood. To face up to the sorrow and horror that permeate the Book of Mormon in particular has been a very important part of my strengthened testimony of it. I love and appreciate the Book of Mormon partly because it gives such emphasis to the truth that people can't be fully trusted.

[@ingridsagers957]

Thank you for taking the time to write all of this, I appreciated reading your experience

[@barbarastrate8388]

"I don't think we should go into coasting mode" !!! "Were poor readers of the Book of Mormon because we are poor readers of the Bible" "The Book of Mormon gives back." This was a GREAT!

[@fstaheli]

Wonderful episode! I particularly liked where Grant talked about the Torah and how the stories in the Old Testament are stories of families that had a lot of issues to work through. We may have a tendency to think that those are non-traditional families, but I think it's actually more traditional that every family has something that they have an opportunity to grow in love together by working through. I think we do ourselves a disservice by not understanding in as much depth as we could how the family of Lehi had a lot of things to work through as well. It's easy to just say Nephi was awesome and Laman and Lemuel were evil, but I don't think that's what the Book of Mormon is trying to get us to understand. As Grant said in the episode it's not just" the other guys". We need to pay attention to how the shortcomings and the admonitions belong to and point at us as well.

[@joshua_sykes]

Grant Hardy’s speech : 42:41 🤲

[@barbarastrate8388]

This was an interesting topic, one which I've never considered. Thank you for the dive. In response to the issue of skin color, curse, etc. see Jared Halverson's Unshsken episode on those verses. He handles and explains it well, giving some other possibilities (the "curse" was not synonymous with skin color but the troubles they brought upon themselves)...or something like that). Sorry I don't have a link to it but it's worth finding 😊

[@vickyyeates8598]

This is interesting. I have an Annotated Book of Mormon that was published in 2018. It is published by Digital Legend Press. Can you help me understand the difference? There are 2 books with the same title? Help me understand. Thanks.

[@ChrisRobison]

I’ll have to get his book. I have the Royal Skousen BoM. What’s really interesting is that it in 1 and 2 Ne, there are spots where the original text is more trinitarian in nature and distinction was added later in 1837. I’d be interested in Grant’s thoughts on that.

[@cinnamondan4984]

In the Catholic Church’s NABRE Bible which is standard for Catholic schools to use (I know because I used it all my young life) has footnotes that explain the lack of historical value of many of the books while still amplifying their theological value. In Catholicism the Bible is not viewed as important because of its historicity (I mean different from how a lot of Protestants understand the Bible as I understand it).

[@jonnyj7137]

This is a cool conversation but also really painful soap boxing… from Book of Mormon annotation to the church’s use of finances lol

[@chadpearson1572]

Experts can get tiring.

[@rkn2800]

It’s very clear that Joseph Smith explained the BOM as a ʻhistorical record’ of the aboriginal people of the Americas, so he intended it to be taken as literal and factual. But the aboriginal people of the Americas have never been semitic, there is no scientific evidence to support the truth claims about the BOM, and Church leaders shy away from making any claims about BOM geography, cities, and characters, lacking faith and any confidence in revelation to clarify the confusion. The Church led its population to believe throughout the 19th and 20th centuries that Lehi landed in either Chile or central America and all the events occurred in Central and South America, but Moroni made his way on foot all the way to Palmyra, NY to bury the plates in the end. All unlikely. So to build faith based on BOM text is no different than building faith on the poetry of William Wordsworth, a non-member and someone Monson would quote at general conference.