Toxic Leadership or Undisciplined Sailors? You Decide

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A Submarine commander decides to take away a motivational tool that has brought his crew together. Was his decision good for the overall mission and ship, or was it a ridiculous overreaction? You decide.
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[@AngryCops]

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[@mygirlfriendbeatsme]

this is 100% toxic leadership. The brain teasers are a good way to stay alert and focused without distracting. The argument that it shouldn't be allowed implies that NO ENTERTAINMENT AT ALL should be allowed on the sub. Subs already have so many issues with retention. Between people developing claustrophobia and committing suicide. Or the number of stories my brother told me (he was navy I was USMC) about people doing drugs or making boos. If I was this commander, I would have used discretionary funds to buy a shit ton of them and pass them out. Sure, keep check on the productivity of the sailors, but encourage this healthy outlet. This commander sounds like the kind of dick head that doesn't allow magazines or other personal effects on the ship and does locker checks looking for porn.

[@mygirlfriendbeatsme]

I was on CPAC while I was in and got my own cage for all our test and repair equipment. I brought a projector and coffee maker because I like movies and coffee and was able to run both in my cage. 3 weeks in the captain asked if we could use the projector in the chow hall for a movie. So every week I'd set it up and most of the lower enlisted would get to watch a movie. The morale raised so damn high the captain bought a professional projector with my help and from what I heard makes popcorn too. 2 hours of high quality entertainment a week and his ship runs smooth as butter. Instead of malcontent at the staff nco's and officers for being dickheads, the main conversations I heard were people looking forward to the next movie night or taking about how great the last one was.

[@fmlghm420]

I was with the 2/8 Cavalry out at Fort Hood and the rear detachment was sleeping with my wife but my leadership didn't want to do anything without video or photograph evidence and didn't want to hold any of the guys in the unit accountable

[@Xyrin1]

We call them boats not ships

[@johnstewart1404]

so i was in the navy in the nuclear program and while you are "on watch" the only thing youre "allowed to do" is maintain your watch station and study. if steven had been playing with the toy while not on watch; we would have never heard any of this. but since it was on watch and he is a nuke, its a big deal. they give no leeway in the nuclear navy. in fact he got off light getting the counseling sheet he did. that is as close to a slap on the wrist as you get.

[@jin1063]

Navy here. Had a Lt, the squadrons retention officer, who arranged for me to have a weekly piss test because I wouldn't say whether or not I wanted to re-up. Smiled and laughed every week when I showed for it and would asked if I had made a choice, yet. Guess what? He made my decision. I got out directly because of him.

[@chucklindenberg1093]

I just love officers and senior enlisted who say or do utterly stupid sh*t to you but are then surprised when you refuse to reenlist.

[@davetdu]

This perfectly describes just how f***ed up nuclear trained officers are!!! (ET1(SS))

[@gregghull1518]

I was also an Airedale. May I ask: what community were you in? Having been in several outfits, from Electronic Warfare to Attack, to Fighters, I found that a certain KIND of flyer ( **cough** fighters **cough** ) were the WORST. Huge egos, and petty as hell.

[@NeviQAdnariM]

@@chucklindenberg1093 blows my mind how dumb the average military officer is. All that training and education just to end up being petty and cruel in the most childish manner

[@Liberatingamericans]

​indoctrination is not education although I get your point. Unfortunately most education today is just indoctrination.

[@johnhaas5307]

As a retired officer (not Navy), the obvious answer is "Nice, Stephen, but not on watch."

[@actaeon299]

A lot of people here seem to be missing that. He was on watch, on a nuclear power plant. He's been told since day one of training, no non-nuc related material Aft.

[@oldtanker4860]

Ret Army Officer here, had the same thought

[@kage3050]

Not a retired (not Navy, not Officer), former dirtbag private and I had the same thought. Chain of Command probably did a poor job of communicating the problem but I have been told Navy Subs are a key command on the path to flag officer. Mission is so critical to these commanders that they won't tell sailors when a (not immediate) family member passes away until the mission is over and they returned to port. If they have to cancel mission to return to port it supposedly can negatively impact their career. Doesn't make it right, but can understand why some decisions are made that I don't agree with.

[@Laugh1ngboy]

Exactly my thought.

[@martinarmstrong6484]

Retired Chief (submarines). Absolutely "good for you, Not on watch." but to put the whole ship port and stbd = Overkill.

[@dekab3288]

Chief here..(not the one from the story, lol). kid was playing with the junk for a year, along with others...meaning everyone knew, everyone saw it, nobody cared because it wasn't a problem. Chiefs should have told the captain he was making the wrong move. If the captain's expectations were clear from day one, then it's a failure in leadership to uphold those standards. If it "suddenly became a problem," the chiefs should have spoken up and owned it as a failure on their shoulders. Real leaders dont let their people get screwed over. Hope that makes sense.

[@thechieflegofanatic9194]

It depends if it was routinely happening while they were on watch. If it was, than the Chiefs and Divos failed at correcting the improper behavior before it made it to the CO’s attention.

[@rh906]

Bingo

[@exploatores]

ok former army. I have a hard time thinking that something could go on for a year. in this way without the officers knowing about it. Ok I was company radio man. so I could hardly do anything without at least one officer knowing about it. I don´t know how many nights I have spent. radio in one ear. doing stuff to keep me from falling a sleep. I think as long as it don´t become a problem. it´s a bad idea to make it one. If it has been going on for a year. how big problem can it be.

[@haolepirate]

Not exactly Chief, retired Nuke Watch Supervisor here. The watch team didn't do it's duty and keep Manuevering inviolate, a long standing principle dating back to when Rickover didn't have grey hair. Maneuvering watchstanders are supposed to ecen be talki g about how fat the captain"s wife is, let along have distracting devices that keep their attention from watching their panels to ensure the reactor is operating correctly.

[@fdsphone6854]

@@haolepirate ok, so rule broken. then correct it. was there too much correction?

[@SSgtRobertMorris]

Had a new SgtMaj report to our squadron. Former DI once upon a time, pretty typical. BUT, he had this little brass bulldog with a DI Hat, about 8" tall he set on the deck outside his office. I think it was there for 2 days before it disappeared. More than a couple issues here, integrity, his personal property, theft just to name a few. The dog became a running issue for the rest of the time he was with the squadron. Even through Desert Storm. Yes, the dog went to war with us. My first thought was that the Flight Engineers took it, because that seemed like something down their alley. Former powerplants types etc. But it turned out it was the Navigators. The dog went all over the world, with pictures slipped under the SgtMaj's door documenting the travels. When he got orders to his next assignment, the dog appeared from whence it left. Officially the longest gag I ever heard of. Best kept secret I ever heard of too. All the flight personnel were in on it, including the C.O's, but very few of us maintenance types knew anything about it until after the SgtMaj left.

[@Jake-cz1kb]

Now that is an awesome story!

[@ETC_Rohaly_USCG]

Retired USCG Chief (E7) here. I got out in '22 when I felt I was no longer capable of being an efficient&capable Leader. I felt like I failed my shop, and they deserved better.

[@minerock16]

It's pretty simple. I'd tell them "Don't let it interfere with your work. If it does, I'm going to take them". Simple as that

[@Moody801]

But but but that would require you to treat them like an adult! We can’t have that now, can we??

[@Fissionable]

@@Moody801 If he was going to act like an adult, he wouldn't have found himself being counseled. Operations involving a nuclear reactor demand a high standard. He knew this. 2 years of training and a year on the boat. Zero excuses.

[@Cowboycomando54]

@@Fissionable God you sound like a blue falcon and a digit.

[@UncleRayRayGarageEmporium]

You MONSTER!!!

[@Fissionable]

@@Cowboycomando54 LoL, you might think so. But I doubt you'd cut it as a reactor operator. The reactor comes first. And this kid got a strongly worded letter. Get over it.

[@Moody801]

The sonar bleeps had me rolling. My director is an Army veteran but was enlisted. He runs our department like he ran his platoon. Do your job, keep standards/metrics and as long as shit don’t fall on my head it won’t fall on yours, otherwise do what you want.

[@chrisw1555]

15 year Army Infantry vet, some of the best officers i've ever met were prior enlisted.

[@SpookyEng1]

That’s the way I run my shop. 26 year retired AF SNCO. Be the shite filter, take care of your team and let them do their jobs.

[@MikeT-TheRetiredColonel]

@@SpookyEng1 same, enlisted then commissioned, get the job done, pitch in when needed (myself as well, hated those who thought a task was beneath themselves), move on to the next item. Get it all done and we all go home, work hard, play hard

[@cwxgames468]

Amazon needs people like that running shit

[@roadking1062]

that is my chat sound since i was a sonarman. checked my damn phone twice before i figured it was the video. oops

[@blackdog542]

I think the commander gave up after 3 or 4 of the puzzles because he couldn't finish them and decided nobody else should either

[@theangryaustralian7624]

Nailed it

[@tednelson9707]

SPIRAL NAIL THING NO WORK SPIRAL NAIL THING MAKE EAGLE MAN MAD

[@samebert4440]

DING DING DING!!!!! I THINK WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!

[@inoroth2001]

This was my immediate first thought

[@oz_jones]

Sounds about right

[@mrSaber79]

I think that the solution as a leader would be fairly simple: -explain to your men that you are concerned about the lack of attention to their jobs -let all them know ahead of time that you will be doing random mock emergencies to test their attention-span for, say, a month -evaluate if their responses fall within acceptable parameters -if they do, no action needed. If not, let the men know and work with them to redesign your procedures to alleviate the root cause that created the demand for the toys (boredom while doing dull but incredibly important job). I'm not in the military or anything... but proving to your men that their innocuous actions are still a problem sounds like a better way to preserve morale when taking away something they like, especially when you've given them a chance.

[@ColbyRhea]

I like that solution! Not sure if your a military leader still but if so kudos to you for treating the troops like grown adults!

[@endless3cho]

I like these ideas. It makes sense and proves whether they're losing their attention or not.

[@elapidpython4378]

navy vessels of all kinds run drills constantly and as far as pannel op goes on the platform in question so little happens that there's really nothing wrong with having a small fidget toy

[@mrSaber79]

@@elapidpython4378 Thank you for the context. That makes a lot of sense.

[@jonahkolell]

If you tell them about the test, then it is their choice to make passing the test a priority as a group. That sounds like a great solution

[@ShawnDRichman]

Retired Marine here- worked with navy nukes for over a decade in civilian nuclear. If they were supposed to be on watch in the engine room, especially if they were operating equipment (like, oh, idk- a nuclear reactor)- they probably shouldn’t be doing anything at all that takes any of their focus off their job while on watch… that said, toys were temporarily taken away and then returned and the letter won’t really harm their career. That level of the issue was identified and then corrected just fine- didn’t really need the port and starboard crap imo- but maybe there was something else going on that we haven’t been made privy to. The problem I have is that the chief and the officers didn’t catch this within the first week of it going on. If they were actually engaged with their people, they would have caught it early- and been able to say something like, “hey- fun toy- but keep it off the watch stations and back in your berthing. If i catch anyone on ship effing around with your toys while they are on watch, I’m going to drop paperwork (or fuckfuckgames… whatever navy can do to make you hate your life for a couple days)”- and that probably would have been the end of it. Senior leadership dropped the ball and allowed it to go on for a year. I’d be interested to find out if the officers or chief got a letter in their own files.

[@akarbit3r111]

Agree, definitely something not to be done on watch. As far as that last part, if it's anything like the commands I've been to, bet not a single one did because God forbid this story was about one of them doing the exact same thing

[@gamingsasquatch3357]

My uncle was an engineer on USS Constellation. A bunch of the officers were harping the engineers over how dirty their uniforms were getting (Boiler driven ship, so you’re going to get dirty on duty). To the surprise of the crew, the next day they had no running water, save for the kitchens (no point in self targeting). Officers went to complain at the Engineers who said “the ship operates the way we say it does, or else not at all”. The Captain finally got involved, slapped all the officers, told the Chief Engineer, “I’ll get y’all what you want, just keep our ship operational.” They had a smooth trip from then on. Example of good Captain, with bad helpers, and don’t mess with the guy’s who are the foundation of your operations 😂

[@Dean-f8g]

Spent some time as a civilian training folks on the Connie. Enjoyed my time as a (former) ground pounder doing a float. COD flights royally sucked, however. I was sad to see CV-64 go to the scrap heap in 2017.

[@Garviel.Loken.Knight.Errant.]

@@gamingsasquatch3357 MM2 here, yep had a similar experience on my ship.

[@futtersticks]

If I remember correctly that Chief Engineer was fired by the CO. I was onboard the ship, he lost control of his entire department.

[@kennethw8384]

Was that after LCdr Lowe in ship's 3M got busted to E-1? I worked in 3M. He sucked.

[@futtersticks]

@ After.

[@Heizman360]

Navy here, had the leadership remove sonar divisions Keurig from the sonar shack because they said it was distracting us from staring at green screens for 8 hours

[@tednelson9707]

"oh no, he threw himself overboard, oh no..."

[@AsthePoolfills]

Yeah but going to the mess deck and out to the smoking area doesn't

[@loganwalters9487]

Woooow

[@kaharthemad]

subs are referred as 'boats' as far as 12 on 12 off...we used to call them 'port and report' due to lack of sleep. As for the issue at hand. yeah this has been going on since I was on. 2 captains one doesnt care, we get the new skipper and suddenly the things that kept us occupied was 'bad. We kept a board game of Axis and allies, magnified the board and placed magnets on bottom of the pieces and we played it after watch. old skipper actually played once or twice, new skipper had it dumped in the TDU void (trash disposal unit) because it was taking up space. Needless to say old bubbleheads back in the early 90s could be very vindictive. there was some pranks on the skipper carried out by other bubbleheads on other boats (all it takes is the materials and a can of nuts to get a sister ship involved). Lets say it took him 2 hours to realize his car was not going forward because of the cinderblock under his axles. Couldnt blame us because we had just pulled in and no one was off the boat yet.

[@dixiecyrus8136]

Man, that sucks, love Axis/Allies, Risk and Stratego. Lucky he still had his car when he got back🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤣

[@actaeon299]

But you're talking about off watch stuff. This guy was doing the stuff on watch, in the control room of a nuclear reactor. He's been told this is not allowed, for the entire time he was in training, over a year.

[@dangermouse9494]

I stole the XO's stateroom door and hid it for over two weeks. That's with 2 field days included. Also, drydocking a turd in the CO/XO stateroom bathroom. IFYKYK.....

[@LyneaSilver]

@@actaeon299 So? He was telling his own story. It doesn't have to perfectly correlate.

[@davidk8184]

I was stationed on a Permit class boat from 1980-83. Shit like that happened to us as well. The new CO has to make his mark if he wants that bird.

[@BgyPntSkyFury]

Retired army infantry GWOT vet here and I now work in a metal foundry so lets look at it this way. While actively engaged in my work duties (mil and civ work) my focus needs to be on my job. When I'm on break, then the figet stuff to reduce boredom is ok. If not focused on my work and figeting while working, something could happen and people can get hurt or worse.

[@jlcool13]

A senior chief who was my CDO (Command Duty Officer)said "do it when I can't see you, but remember I'm always watching" they visit you maybe once a watch every blue moon

[@Questions-l8r]

@@jlcool13 on a sub. It is a small confined space. Everyone knows what’s going on.

[@plasticoflamingo2952]

My tactical missile unit had a female CO, for a while. After over a year of low morale, low unit evaluations, and high rates of troop depression, HQ took her command away, moved her to Battalion, and put her in charge of Security. All of a sudden, guard duty was pure hell. 8+ hour shifts, guarding locked gates, guarding civilian front gate guards, leaves cancelled so more guards could guard things that didn't need guarding, our battalion being "volunteered" for Community guard duty, our battalion guarding the Infantry's ammo dump, our unit being used to train other units how to guard, all for her attempt to not look like the incompetent buffoon she was. Just insane.

[@RhodaRamirezdearellano]

And that is why DEI has such a bad name.

[@Mermare]

What does being a female have to do with that?

[@Princess_Celestia_]

​@@MermareBased on what OP said, she wasn't qualified for command so the only way she got there was diversity quotas aka DEI hire.

[@HD-mp6yy]

Honestly this is a simple case of trying to look good in front of her superiors. Tale as old as civilization.

[@nisonatic]

@@Mermare Do you ever ask that when the media does puff pieces about diversity?

[@MLCrisis1790]

I had a CWO that tried to give me a "non-punitive" letter when I was a BMC, lol. I refused to sign and told him I'd prefer formal counseling from the command. Shockingly, nothing further happened. Remember, kids, non-punitive letters *aren't* and your "unit record" becomes your "official record" pretty Goddamn quick when the higher ups want it to.

[@moshguy]

Had a similar thing happen to me. We had an overrun of E7's in our flight. There were 10 E7's in a unit of 60 guys. When I was an E4, one of the E7s, who had nothing better to do, started recreationally riding my ass. I turned around, looked at him and said, "What do you do here? Because for the life me, I can't figure out what the fuck it is..." He put me on three days extra duty and not much beyond that. The reason I never saw paperwork is because if he would have filled out any paperwork, it would have gone to his boss the E8 and the E8 would have asked what the fuck he does everyday. 😂

[@notmenotme614]

This! I’m not in the US military but we have a similar system here. Where the write up can be classed as “administrative” action rather that “disciplinary” action. However, it’s not until you’re on the receiving end that you soon learn that “administrative” also means it’s done outside of the legal system by a completely different set of rules and by signing it you are admitting your guilt. Basically “administrative” is another way for them to screw you over, with less evidence (if any), no investigation, no trial, no jury, outside the legal framework. Then you realise, hang on a minute, you’d be better off getting a disciplinary instead as then it would go to a fair trial. I bet many of these administrative cases would be dropped because of 1. Nothing illegal happened in the first place 2. Lack of evidence. I think for us the “administrative” action came in about 15 or 20 years ago, probably to stop guys appealing disciplinary cases and winning. They couldn’t let the CoC look bad when the units problem child gets away with it every time by simply saying “nope, didn’t do it, wasn’t me”. So they brought in another system that made it easier for the CoC to screw guys over without things …like the legal system… getting in the way.

[@guppywithaglock3550]

My 1LT was a "The beatings continue until Morale improves", and yet kept moving the goalpost, while simultaneously giving us the most rediculous, dangerous operations and tasks on the daily. Oh yeah, he got everybody to hate him real quickly

[@Cowboycomando54]

Reminds me of the RDMC on CVN 77 and his good idea fairy.

[@FREECIVVIE]

@@Cowboycomando54 CVN 75 with Big Vic

[@Cowboycomando54]

@FREECIVVIE Guy before the turd on 77 was a Force Master Chief that had to be called in to replace the RDMC who was committing adultery with a junior sailor in Reactor Dept.

[@thecatfather857]

Sounds like he was big on the 🦆🦆 games.

[@MrRAGE-md5rj]

The officers in Vietnam were like that. Their men would throw rocks through their windows as a "warning." If they didn't listen after that, they replaced the rocks with live grenades.

[@AT2Productions]

Former US Navy here, and I have to say that horrendous leadership was becoming more and more prevalent when I made the decision to leave active duty back in 2008. My first command performed great, they placed value on its people in order to fulfill our mission. Each command after that? Oh boy, OOOHHH BOY are there some stories I could tell you. But yeah, leadership at my last two commands showed me what was ahead, along with other admin changes taking place at the time. Glad I got out when I did. WWYD: A simple verbal reprimand, a warning to everyone to cut the shit is the proper response. Putting everyone on port/starboard and changing the watch/work schedule? No, not the right choice. I will say though, on the carrier we were on port/starboard every time we deployed for any type of evolution (training, work-ups, full deployment, surge deployment, etc). The real punishment and demoralizing events are excessive group punishment while in port. Such as some chuckle-fuck in a different department doing something stupid while on liberty, resulting in the entire 3,500 crew being recalled to the ship on a Saturday morning for an undetermined amount of time. That's some of the nonsense I don't miss about being on that boat in Japan.

[@bulldowozer5858]

The existence of Leadership implies a much smaller, but no less significant Leaderboat!

[@jabarney077]

Former USN surface nuke electrician guy here from 20+ years ago… Judging by the rating on the letter of instruction, this guy was a nuke and if he was standing watch in maneuvering on the powerplant, you have a team at sea of other folks including a watch officer in that space that are stacked up like cordwood. If someone didn’t like what they saw, start with the Engineering Officer of the Watch and make sure he’s setting the standard in his watch team. Paying attention to the panels in the plant is kind of important. Nukes, though, get bored. You’d hate for them to go from fidget puzzles to playing chicken with a reactor fill switch…and losing.

[@griffra1982]

And a bored nuke is far worse than a nuke with a puzzle.

[@jabarney077]

@ Amen.

[@trafficsignalman]

@@griffra1982 bored Nuke is worse than a bored Marine.

[@HD-mp6yy]

I guarantee to you that the junior officers got in trouble with the CO. But the CO decided he didn't want to overblow the situation so everyone got a warning and that's it. Remember officers actually considered people in the military. Enlisted aren't.

[@jabarney077]

I had some garbage officers and some absolutely outstanding ones who were great shields for bullshit. I was pretty lucky for most of my at-sea tour - I had a pretty solid chain of command the whole way up to the CO.

[@Garviel.Loken.Knight.Errant.]

While in the Navy, MM2, I worked an 18/6 rotation. 6-watch/6-work/6-watch/6-off. And 9/10 times we had drill on my 6-off. And when we didn't have drill I had to catch up on laundry, hair cut, hygiene and extra qualifications. So the phrase "24 and carry-on " was common for engineering. Morale was low across most the the Eng department due to the constant work and drills. And when we hit home port we were still working 12hr shifts. When visiting other ports we were in 24hr watch rotations. Got out in 2005.

[@Cowboycomando54]

Just be glad you also didn't have to study for and take a 2hr exam every month onto of that.

[@Garviel.Loken.Knight.Errant.]

@@Cowboycomando54 the new CO was implementing weekly "mandatory" training and exams. Failure was to mean revocation of leave and liberty and extra duties. That crap made no sense to any of us. Glad I got outta there when I did.

[@Cowboycomando54]

@ That is something would never wish on the conventionals is making them take CTEs.

[@Tdc_97]

​@@Cowboycomando54 CTEs don't even take that long. It's the proctoring and grading of the CTEs that take time.

[@Cowboycomando54]

@ All the more reason to not make the conventionals take em.

[@Rmc263]

AC, I am a prior submariner so I can offer some perspective, especially since I've gotten into similar trouble before when I was on the boat. So to clarify the Maneuvering watch is only set when you are pulling into and out of port, however this seems more like he was part of the watch team in Maveuvering, which is the room where they control the reactor and the electric plant of the submarine. So in both instances, yes it can get boring, however you have options when you're on watch and you aren't supposed to be playing with anything or reading outside material, like a book. This guy is a nuke so he knows what is up and that this isn't appropriate. The EMN stands for Electrician's Mate Nuclear, and if he was standing watch in maneuvering then he was either the Electrical Operator, which means he was in charge of the entire electric plant of the boat or he was the throttleman which means that he has direct control of reactor power and has to answer the ordered bell, which is crucial if they were in the Maneuvering Watch because when you are pulling into or out of port there is a much greater chance of collision. So basically to sum this up he got an LOI, which is one step above a counciling chit, but doesn't really mean anything other than a pp slap, aka HEY...don't do that again. It sucks, but it seems like a fair thing to do. If he wanted to do that off watch that would have been 100% fine and if the CoC had done anything further like take him to mast, that would be way too much, but as it stands this seems like a normal shenanegan followed by a normal correction. I've heard of worse, I've done worse, and I've had far more unjust punishment if you wanted to hear about it. Just hit me up if you want more sub stories, love the channel btw.

[@HappyJF]

An EM3 standing the Maneuvering Watch EO? I know the Virginia class has some changes but I’d guess he was the Aft Electrician.

[@haolepirate]

​@@HappyJFEOs can be an EM3 seen it plenty of times in my 20 years. They're great operators, just can't pass a E5 test good enough to make rate.

[@Rmc263]

@HappyJF the advancement rate for Nukes has gone way down since we didn't have the Ns in the rate. I saw a few electricians on my boat that were on board for 3 years before they made it to EMN2. They didn't want to re-enlist and the rates were between 8%-10% for my entire time on the boat.

[@emnuc30]

@@HappyJFAs a EMN3 he was 95% likely standing throttleman and in charge of steam plant not the reactor (even if Reactor Power follows steam demand). If he was standing watch over the electric plant, his only real job is phone talker as you don't shift the plant more than monthly outside drills. Even on a high intensity maneuvering area, throttleman isn't a highly physical activity. That all being said, by the rules the only activities authorized in Maneuvering is reading ship/reactor manuals and drinking coffee/water. That being said, I've seen far worst activities in Maneuvering, even had a EO get caught playing Age of Empires on my PDA. Which pissed me off cause I lost my PDA for a couple days. I think the port and starboard watch standing could violate the SORM and should be addressed unless it was necessary due to the EMN3 behind disqualified and nobody to take his place. But if it was just a punishment for the other crew it could be an issue as we had it performed on us to accommodate unnecessary ship mission and was not allowed. It resulted in a reprimand of the CO from our Squadron. FYI, former EMN(SS).

[@leopingol8911]

Thank you all for your comments as it saves me from explaining everything in butchered composition. The only thing I can think to add is that maybe they should have read from the dictionary more often or the EOOW could have picked better words 😂

[@gregoryknotts653]

Senior Chief here. Here’s what I’m hearing (maybe incorrectly), sounds to me like the SFE was underway on maneuvering watch, and possibly being observed / evaluated by Squadron (guessing based on mention of SQWEPS or Squadron Weapons Officer being mentioned) and it was possibly the Squadron Weps who saw it. The CO hearing about distracted watchstanders from Squadron while on maneuvering watch is a recipe for an overreaction.

[@jessieboyd9896]

I was thinking the same thing. It was just a chit. So i don't think it was actively being played with. It was just in the compartment. Could have gone way further but the CO did the minimum to show he was the skipper.

[@markomarra7618]

I would say toxic leadership , a good leader would recognize that the task was increase or maintaining mental sharpness and improving moral. A good leader would have purchased more puzzles and other mental challenging games to keep the team sharp.

[@spazzypengin]

My first naval command was so toxic it cemented my decision to never reenlist.

[@erikjanthes]

I am glad I didn't get out after my first assignment. My second assignment was an unbelievably positive experience overall. Difficult, yes, but not artificially induced.

[@spazzypengin]

@@erikjanthes Oh my second assignment was far better. 2D MARDIV was a huge improvement over a naval hospital, and that included Iraq deployment. But if I had stayed in I would have been sent back to a naval hospital. Jumping feet first into a woodchipper would have been preferable to going back to a hospital.

[@mrmr-ju2zi]

@@spazzypengin i had the same experience first command sucked (i actually got kicked of the ship) but my next command after i got outta limdu was amazing but i decided i would not reenlist i had dealing with too much bs to want to carry on and it makes me sad cause i kinda miss some things mainly some of those i worked with

[@hateferlife]

@@spazzypengin Thank you for your service, Doc.

[@coffeecool5190]

Never Again Volunteer Yourself

[@feartheghus]

Find a way to get a simulated blip on sonar that a watchful seaman would notice, if he notices it without being warned of the test and he’s fidgeting with a toy, let him keep it since he’s still effective, if he doesn’t, take the toy.

[@Right-Is-Right]

Bit that does not prove he would see it next time.

[@Fissionable]

He's a nuke electrician. Not a sonar tech. And absolutely not.

[@BrokensoulRider]

@@Right-Is-Right Some people are weirdly wired and need always to have something to fiddle with because it helps them actually focus. I'm one of them.

[@tanyachef]

@@BrokensoulRider Yep. Its called ADHD. I know you know that but just saying....Realizing/determinizing what your subordinates strengths and challenges are a mark of a good manager.

[@fakshen1973]

If it's dumb, different, or unusual it will be noted as the source of any mishap on the boat and end somebody's career.

[@MrErictank]

USN subs are referred to as boats, surface ships are, well, ships. Source: USN veteran, 91-97.

[@RighteousKill100]

Surface ships are targets...

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

i was willing to go U.S.Submarine still works its because a ship has a super structure above the.. what is it? gunnel of the hull? damn i used to know what makes a ship a ship and a boat a boat.. USMC 87-89 to me they were just a taxi. truth be told

[@Right-Is-Right]

Easy test of ship or boat, is it capable of carrying a boat, if yes, it's a ship, if no, it's a boat. Simples.

[@Right-Is-Right]

​@@ripvanwinkle2002it's all about if it can carry a boat, if no it is a boat, if yes it's a ship.

[@SpartanONegative]

Because of U Boats, like half of America says Ohh "O" instead of saying zero 0 😂 to hide that their German 😅 unless your talking about a Zebra 🦓 🚫 don't say z or anything with a z in it😂

[@ScottLafray-dd2fp]

When I was in, I was a team leader in a squad of MPs. We were having troubles with low and failing PT scores due to our schedule. Because I was sick of hearing about it, I snatched up the troopies who were having the hardest time and we started working out together. I am not a physical trainer by a long shot, but I knew a few guys who were muscle heads that helped out setting up schedules, dietary changes where needed and what have you. My squads PT scores went up. Everyone should be happy, right? Wrong. All the squad leaders in the Platoon, (to include my own) are pissed at me. Why? I overstepped my authority. The regimen I had the troops following ran counter to the companies fitness program. Due to my "excessive remedial PT" on the squad it caused a "failure in readiness and alertness while the soldiers are on shift". I got my team leader status yanked and a summarized article 15. After that, strangely, I stopped helping the other soldiers and PT scores went back down. I also did the absolute minimum on every event for my own PT test, even though I was capable of damned near maxing it. I was never so happy as when my PCS came through. Went to a more field aligned unit and thrived. Straight garrison for MPs is soul crushing, especially if your lead NCOs are lazy and want to coast through a cake assignment.

[@sodemo88]

Priorities of the military 1: safety - if it can't be done safely, it shouldn't be done 2: mission - get the job done 3: morale - if the people doing the job hate/don't care about the job, it's not getting done correctly or safely. If something improves #3 without degrading #1 or #2, seems like a net positive to me.

[@jasonrawlins5409]

As an Air Force NCO I did a TDY on a Navy post. From the outside looking in, the young LTJG treated the experienced NCOs like children and it clearly caused friction. When I asked what his deal was they just told me that's how it is in the Navy. I didn't see that while working with the Army (though you do hand out Article 15s like candy).

[@dutchray8880]

I never got an Article 15, but I've saw one guy get 3 months on half pay for having an unsecured postage stamp. I thought a simple correction would have been enough for a first offense.

[@Nobody-vr5nl]

Leadership, everyone thinks they should be there. But in reality, only about 10% are even capable of being competent leaders.

[@thefucrew9865]

Exactly.

[@Klaaism]

Good number of real leaders usually don't want to be there to begin with.

[@tetedur377]

A major problem has always been the emphasis on "up or out." Plenty of people getting promoted a) to get rid of them and make them someone else's problem - I saw plenty of that in the DoN, and b) well past their competency level.

[@capybara9802]

Not for low level leadership. Often it's the only route to get treated and paid better then a kid so even people that don't want to lead go for it.

[@Liberatingamericans]

Unfortunately those really made for leadership positions absolutely hate the very concept of telling other what and how to do thing's. It's a real catch 22 situation.

[@Zode123]

NGL, I got out because the vax thing started right before I deployed. My team leader stopped trusting me because I was openly skeptical of it, and likewise, I lost faith in him. Follow that up with the retreat from Afghanistan and handling evacuees, and it seemed like too few people worth caring about had stuck around to justify staying in.

[@TroubleActual]

I feel ur pain! I left in 2014 b4 this sh*t started

[@darkstar3097]

We had a general show up and personally tell us "dont bother putting in for religious exemptions i will deny all of them" pissed me off beyond belief. Luckily i was near ets anyway and there was no chance id stay in.

[@TDesil5000]

​@darkstar3097 my buddy was 3 days out from end of his 3rd enlistment contract as an E7 when he was ordered to take the Vax. He already had every sign-off he needed other than the Vax. He refused to take it, his command told him he would not be allowed to leave until he did. His last day a fucking 2 star showed up and gave him the choice of Vax or be help pending court martial. He ended up being locked up for 2 week beyond his contract until his wife was able to get a civilian lawyer to make enough noise to get him released.

[@schadenfreude191]

My sister refused it while on sea duty, as her mos(don't know correct navy term) wasn't attached to the ships command so they couldn't make her. They did treat her like garbage though, made her get tested almost daily and badger her about it. When she pointed out that it would be impossible for her to catch it as everyone else was supposedly immune to it and they were isolated at sea they just got more psycho about it. Crazy how religious about it they all were.

[@pwdrjnky]

Funny how right wing extremists tend to also be such cowards and imbeciles that they’re even afraid of a needle and unable to comprehend vaccines. Funny

[@angelcorderoI]

Being a former bubble head, we had full on LAN parties in the crew's mess. We would have lost our minds otherwise. And you're absolutely correct on people losing their absolute shit while being underway. Made for some interesting times.

[@dgatsf]

My husband was drafted into the army during the Vietnam war. He went to basic training and AIT and he came out a much better man. He was not coddled. It made him disciplined and got him the job with a four-star General in Europe for four years. I joined him and we had a blast.

[@kristopherhilton8065]

I loved being a Marine but I got out because my new CO was a POS. He refused to sign my paperwork for my discharge and my 1st sgt knew i was about to catch a case and handled it for me Edit: no one reads anything past the first comment before assuming so I just want to state I was never njpd, no negative counsels, put up for meritorious, and in billet above my rank. So no I wasn't some random trash Marine

[@thefucrew9865]

So, because he didn't look out for you, he didn't let you get away with not upholding the standards or follow the laws/rules/regulations, or didn't let you get away with breaking the law you think he was a POS ???? Sounds like you were a crap Marine.

[@danielhall6578]

@@thefucrew9865 the fuck you going on about?

[@RexNicolaus]

@@thefucrew9865 That’s quite the assumption based on no information of what went down.

[@ChappySinclair]

​@@thefucrew9865 Your picture explains everything.

[@matt6984]

The Marine corps drives away. Good people. The officer core is horrible

[@DownWithBureaucracy]

Marine Corps here, my junior Marines got into those fiddle puzzles for awhile there, also rubik'scubes made the rounds at one point. First time I said "so long as it doesn't interfere with work..." The second time, I took one to solve because I have to establish my superior skill... I failed in this endeavor. Damn toys. But work got done, the Marines were contented, and we had one more thing to do and talk about when we were hurrying up to wait on dumb shit

[@johnpatz8395]

OMG, the timing was so perfect. At 3:31 when you said “sitting there looking at his screen, and an ad for one of the online gambling/poker site commercial started, without skipping a beat. Took me a few second to realize an ad had started

[@caseymckenney5540]

I've played with a lot of those little brain teaser fidget toys--my grandpa loved them. After the first fifteen or twenty seconds, you don't actually have to /look/ at them any more. In fact, sometimes you figure them out faster if you're not looking at them. I don't know how much this sailer needed his hands for his blip-watching duties, but with the assumption that his work was mostly vision-based, I doubt the fidget toys made much difference in his ability to do his job. That said, it's not a good look to play with toys while you're supposed to be working, no matter how innocuous they may be.

[@chevrobert6607]

1. Subs are called boats. 2. When on port and starboard watch schedule you work 12 hours and are off 12. When afloat your watch is doing your job. So you don't have watch and then do your job. 3. If seamen are playing with puzzles while on watch then the C.O. did the right thing by taking them. If they were playing with them on off time the C.O. is a giant prick. 4. The NCOs and junior officers should have been supervising better if the crew was distracted while on watch. 5. There was no need for me to number these comments, I did it to make myself feel important. 6. Love your videos, keep up the great work!

[@jessemaier8681]

What does USS stand for?

[@davidlawrenz2061]

As a former NCO that crossed over the dark side, went to OCS, and commissioned, my opinion (for what little it may be worth) this is most likely a leadership problem. If the letter in the enlisted file is the first documentation of the problem then leadership failed. However, and this is where its difficult to judge, if the enlisted sailor was counseled prior to the letter than this is on the sailor. We as leaders should never affect a soldier's record if we are not first setting the standards and counseling our people. It's a lot of work, but leaders accept that or they don't need to accept promotion. As a Battery Commander it is my responsibility to communicate and be prepared. If a soldier does something that I did not prepare for then how can I be upset with them for being as clueless of a situation as I was. But if the issue was clearly addressed and the soldier acknowledged the counseling then it is on them. It all comes down to the communication and the only way to ensure the communication is receiving an effective is from back brief.

[@Fissionable]

It was a counseling chit. They are legitimately never used properly. Someone writes one up, you do the counseling, it might get scanned into the LAN. ANd maybe someone will read it down the road and laugh at your stupidity. These dont go anywhere, unless you go to mast. And then you use it as part of the paper trail to demonstrate continued behavior.

[@Pepesilvia267]

Ya I feel like there must be more that the captain saw from the investigation. Otherwise, I would have started with a warning first setting a clear expectation of what is not allowed. But if there were other factors then I don’t think the result is out of line. Personally I think it’s a lesson in leadership to correct early on because if you tolerate something for a year that isn’t allowed, then you are creating a culture that says it’s ok. Without more details and evidence it’s really hard to tell if the reaction is over the top or not

[@stevemanart]

I was on an aircraft carrier for workups in 2003, and I was barely allowed to get any work done due to the Quality Assurance Officer ordering me to run an open table D&D game. If there's nothing critical to be done in that moment, it is gross negligence to put the illusion of efficiency above unit morale.

[@SgtFluffytheoriginal]

Navy: I had watch from 2000 - 0000 and didn't wake up my LPO who didn't put a wakeup call in the log on the Quarterdeck. He started yelling at me when he showed up almost late but not in front of the officer of the Deck. next morning her sent me to Captains mast. I then reported him for a false accusation and brought the log book down to the Master at Arms office and they dismissed it and our Division officer ripped him a new one. He then made me wash the Turret while were in port for fleet week in New York as punishment. I have never been so confused in all my life.

[@MathiasYmagnus]

Yup; it happens. However, it's sad that it does. There are specific rules and regulations for leadership on this. The latter part you mentioned is called 'reprisal.' Leadership is supposed to be able to spot this; stop this and be able to take 'corrective' actions. However, I will also state be a 'battle buddy.' If you know you can prevent a decline in mission readiness you should do it or take action on it. Mission readiness can take many different forms. I.E. If you notice a shipmate staying up or partying too late, and there is an important evolution going on in the department the next day you can mention something to them. Someone is having a difficult time at their job help them out. Someone's moral is down you can offer some tasty food /etc. No one stands watch alone. It takes a crew to move a ship.

[@pauljeffers606]

Army here...I realize I may not be experienced with submarines, I was a leader with soldiers I was responsible for...While it may seem inappropriate while on a sub, staying sane is equally as important. And if what they are doing is building cohesion while causing minimal disruption, then the proper thing to do would be to find a way to incorporate the activity while keeping any distractions it may cause minimal. Thats just how I handled similar situations..

[@johnleonard9102]

Navy here. I tried out for EOD, but dropped out early in because I was so smitten with my GF (now wife) after boot camp that I didn't want to spend a year training before I felt like she and I could settle down. I wanted to go aviation, and going undes was my only option. I took a chance and went for it, and got really lucky by getting assigned to an expeditionary squadron and got married right before COVID hit. I spent two years in the line shack and absolutely loved it, but then it came time to pick a rate. I picked one, went to my respective shop, and in less than ten days my LPO made my regret my decision, and I knew I would never reinlist in the Navy. This LPO was extremely arrogant, boastful, had no patience for people who didn't know the job, and would gaslight you every chance he got. He's easily one of the least popular people in our command, and he's a complete sociopath. Nothing kills morale quicker than poor leadership.

[@Wrenchr2]

I signed up as an engineering striker. Best decision I ever made. Got to do all kinds of things before I settled into my EN rate.

[@xxOmponxx]

My cousin is in charge of logistics on an SSN. He told me nukes (the job this Seaman had) have incredibly low retention because the job is essentially staring at meters for bad things which rarely happen. They get insane sign-on bonuses because nobody wants the most boring job on the boat. If I was a skipper, I would want anything to help morale, and would only want to ensure they can shift their attention to any potential issues with the reactor.

[@joshuajones1171]

Spoken your cousin is a box kicker! 😂😂😂😂😂

[@xxOmponxx]

@ lol yeah but he keeps reupping for some reason.

[@thechieflegofanatic9194]

@@xxOmponxx The high sign on bonuses is primarily because of the high caliber of people that we need to get through Power School. Generally top 1% in intelligence in the overall population. Retention bonuses are high in order to convince them to stay in.

[@actaeon299]

@ The retention rate is also because it's cheaper than training a new guy. In 1980 dollars, it was estimated at a quarter of a million dollar EACH nuke watchstander. So.. 10-20 thousand for a couple of years is cheaper than a quarter of a million for 4 years.

[@GJCorby2007]

If you job is to watch the a NUCLEAR reactor to keep it from going all Chernobyl on you, you had better be paying attention. Once things start going pear shaped in a reactor they go fast. There is a time and place to play games, on duty isn’t one of them.

[@jessiebutikofer7981]

I had some non veteran work colleagues ask me what the hardest part about deployments, I said crappy leadership.

[@UncleRayRayGarageEmporium]

Had a Marine tell me being deployed in Afghanistan was OK. He said it was like a hunting trip with family (his platoon), but then the neighbor Karen (leadership) stops by to complain and make suggestions. He's a real outdoorsy guy, went and did his job, and came back with PTSD, and a hatred of Marine Officers. Sad, because he would've made a badass NCO, even SNCO. Couldn't work with them and didn't reenlist. He still wishes he had stayed because he could've changed all the suck.

[@tyvernoverlord5363]

@@UncleRayRayGarageEmporium Everyone that tries to change the system, ends up being the system; just matters to the degree of which

[@The_Oracle_Of_Garnishments]

Your non veteran work colleagues should tell you the same thing in civilian life. Managers verses leaders....go figure.

[@estern001]

The only RIGHT answer is for the Skipper to leave it to the Master Chief to handle. The Master Chief would pass along to his subordinates that these "Games" will not be played while working or watchstanding. The Chain of Command goes both ways.

[@HD-mp6yy]

Clearly the CO judged that the Senior NCO and the Junior Officers didn't do their job right. This was as much for them as it was for the enlisted.

[@jeraldbottcher1588]

@@HD-mp6yy Or since he was a new skipper did not give them the chance!

[@Elkadetodd]

Chief would hopefully remember how boring watch was when he had it and figure out some kind of allowed distraction, otherwise he's part of the problem too.

[@erggml1887]

I'm not military, but I am a manager if job performance is not impacted, ask that they only are enjoyed during downtime. If the job performance is impacted, retain the puzzles and set them up to be used in group activities in the mess hall, keeping them in use, but forcing them to be used in a safe way.

[@MrJusone]

Retired sailor here. If you HAVE to say something then call All hands acknowledge the puzzles and they benefit but set the rules. I would have personally set a crew challenge that the person who clears them all gets 24 hour liberty. But you can’t do the puzzles during your shift. Has to be own your own hours.

[@berjo77]

Easy. No teaser toys at the work seat or screen. The rest, let it go.

[@purdunetae2995]

Bingo.

[@harleycriswell8504]

No that would have been to easy to pass the word that leadership doesn't want you messing with your puzzle at your post

[@Caiminho]

How dare you use common sense! Not in MY Navy!!

[@Isaac_132]

Stop it, bro. You're making sense and no one authorized that.

[@HD-mp6yy]

​@harleycriswell8504 Maybe that should have happened before the Captain (O-5 or O-6 on a nuclear sub) got involved. What were the NCOs and junior officers doing.

[@ataraxiadreaming9]

Keeping up morale and having something to strive towards is paramount.

[@dukeofearl6256]

I have had good and bad commands. The good ones would have said don't play with those on watch, but off watch, we are going to have competitions to solve them. My good commands turned things into a competition, or morale booster exercise.

[@nathanielhill8156]

Exactly, this would 100% be a distraction while on the clock. Off the clock however is a different story.

[@AngryCops]

i like that answer

[@davidmcgee9569]

Hey AC, Retired Submariner here. I just want to clarify one thing about your story. The young watch stander wasn't looking at a sonar screen, he was part of the team operating the Reactor. Manuevering is the control room for the reactor, the electric plant, and propulsion for the ship. The letter "N" at the end of his rating (I think it was EMN3?) means he is a nuclear trained sailor. I was a MMN1(SS). The point is the expectations while on watch are a step up from what you might see in other jobs on board. Still a minor thing IMHO.

[@erikwillems6466]

The mind wanders... When sitting still I'm always fidgeting with things. I don't have an actual fidget spinner, but I got plenty of "toys" laying around to keep my fingers busy. Without them, I'd start taking things apart. If you're fidgeting without looking at the thing, but at the stuff you are supposed to so it is not interfering with your job, I don't see the problem, might actually be a good thing. Bring it up as an innovation and get promoted for it. However, if it is a distraction, then just tell the sailor, no. Tell others you said no. Then when they do it again, let all hell break loose. I suspect there has been some kind of notification that gave reason for leadership to say "told you not to do it, now suffer", but that notification was not so obvious, so that the sailors say "I didn't know this is a problem." So was there any such notification? How and when was it given? What was the exact wording? "Hey shit for brains, pay F*ing attention." when they signed up, might not be the clear and precise instruction you want to give to people operating a nuclear reactor on a sub. btw, go back to the german word uboat => boat => ship.

[@b.thomas8926]

When you said "choose your own adventure" I busted out laughing, fixed an Old Fashioned, kicked back and hit play.

[@johnathan.akersakers4632]

@b.thomas8926 I read your comment, hit play, and then-because I am in Japan and it’s 0835 in the AM I decided to Irish up the ol coffee for some angry cops.

[@AngryCops]

hope you enjoyed, weirdo.

[@grumpyoldman5567]

In the Air Force (transports) we have critical phases of flight...Takeoff, Landing, High Traffic, Low levels, Combat zones, etc. where all crew members keep their heads up. During non-critical phases, a crew member can take a break, Pilots for instance, the second pilot assumes control of the aircraft and monitors instruments and radio traffic. Folks reading or playing fidgets would generally not be a problem in this case. There's been a number of studies on long duration days/flights and what we learned is brief breaks and even short naps (30 min) goes a long way to increase crew performance. Bottom line we manage our time with these considerations and act accordingly. I'm not sure how these watches work on Navy boats, or what the expectation is. Maybe a sub guy can add some light.

[@kq2799]

Aircrew Union...

[@fakshen1973]

Cool. But that's on an individual bird, not an entire nuclear submarine. It doesn't scale up from a mission lasting hours to 4-6 months at sea.

[@grumpyoldman5567]

@@fakshen1973 I Understand. Sharing and seeking information, not confrontation.

[@Dayton550]

The biggest thing is that he didn’t get it OKed before he brought it to his duty shift. The tithe of awareness to play with the black smith’s puzzle(that is the correct name for them BTW) shouldn’t be an issue. I used to play chess on the computer while maintaining NVGs(night vision goggles) but before I started that I cleared it with my SGT & warrant officer. The act of making sure it’s ok was probably the main reason it was acceptable.

[@Klaaism]

Aye lets them safe face when a higher up asks why its going on. Instead of being broadsided out of nowhere.

[@michaelkeha]

You are usually correct the issue with ships is often unless the Captain himself approved it before the whole crew as witnesses and had them signed under pain of death to follow the order within a month some dick head lower officer is gonna develop a stick up his ass about literally everything and thus cause a mess

[@Elkadetodd]

It had been going on a YEAR, and by however many people on the whole boat. That meets the presumption of "OK" at that point.

[@robertross5201]

As a retired sergeant myself I would like to see the official report on the investigation. If it was found that these puzzles were distracting crew members from critical tasks then they were a problem and if not then leadership’s reaction was overboard. Right now I really don’t have enough information to make a definitive statement one way or the other.

[@42moosejaw89]

I would just allow the puzzles outside of work but not at work

[@keithbarron3654]

Simple discussion, I think the inquisition was his attempt to cover the fact it had gone on for months, POS covering his direlection of his duties.

[@TheAugustBurnsRedFan]

Seems like a good thing to keep the sailors sharp, especially considering they could just be watching porn or something

[@actaeon299]

He was at work, on watch on a nuc reactor

[@kerbalairforce8802]

There's no job that requires 100% attention for the entire shift. Jobs that do have a 100% attention requirement have more than one person on rotation.

[@actaeon299]

@@kerbalairforce8802 Maneuvering contains a Reactor Operator, Electrical Operator, Throttleman, and Engineer Officer of the Watch. None of them are allowed to have food in Engineering. None of them are allowed to have non-engineering/nuc related items. Any reading material, must be engineering/nuc related.

[@jeffrapier947]

1. There is no such thing as non-toxic leadership in the Navy 2. There is fuck-all to do in Maneuvering even under the most "exciting" conditions. Flip a couple switches, maybe put on a breathing apparatus, and put on a phone headset is the extent of your action. Having something to occupy yourself with is necessary to keep you from wanting to self-checkout from boredom.

[@Cowboycomando54]

Don't agree with number one, but definitely with number two.

[@cookiecracker2]

there is always toxic leadership somewhere. I'm not in the service, but I know there's no way for there to not be toxic leadership in the navy SOMEWHERE.

[@shanehudson3995]

I absolutely agree with the first point. I spent most of my term with a Marine unit, spent the tail end with an actual Naval command. The Naval command portion is why I didn't re-up.

[@sleepygryph]

This is a tough one, I figure a Letter of Caution is the same as a letter of counseling which you'd generally given for minor infractions but have no other impact than that you didn't uphold a standard. Those standards are always contentious. Now in my experience every time in my career when an inch was given a mile was taken. Every time I have seen leadership decide that their subordinates are adults and trusts them to follow the spirit of a regulation they go wild, or I should say a handful go wild. When they are corrected they tend to get all offended and then rally their peers to their side of the story, that is generally where the good order and discipline angle comes from, not from what they were doing but rather that they end up convincing their peers to take their side of the story and then use peer pressure to silence those who don't agree falsely believing that if enough of them are on their side it somehow overrules the commander. Now 12 hr shifts suck but at the end of the day he only received what amounts to a strong suggestion and received his toys back, which the commander would have been within his rights to have trashed. The conversation probably went along the lines of "you're a good sailor, this is the first time, don't let it happen again and we'll document this for record" I'm going to give Steven the benefit of the doubt and considering how long he had been doing it, it stands to reason that it hadn't affected his performance also considering the other parties involved my money is on one of the other ratings either completely neglecting their watch duties due to one of the puzzles or once of the puzzles was left somewhere and caused a problem. In short several sailors probably got away with it because they still performed their tasks to standard and the same leadership saw no issue with it until a few bad apples fucked it up for everyone. The nature of the bad apple means that everyone has to be punished because otherwise they will go to EO and complain about favoritism. So I'm going to be on the side of leadership here

[@chriscrumpler1665]

Retired Navy Chief. This is the first Non-Punitive Letter of Caution ⚠️ I’ve heard of an enlisted Sailor receiving 😮. Did everyone involved receive such a letter.? Why not a standard counseling, or a Memorandum for Record? No negative effects from this Sailor’s actions were listed, nor is there a plan for improvement. Looks like a waste of paper and ink after the CO realized that there was no problem but needed to justify the overreaction 😮

[@DarinRWagner]

When I was in the Submarine Service, "port and starboard" means SIX hours on watch and SIX hours off... not 12 and 12.

[@karimtilley8958]

As a retired Chief Petty Officer I do not think it was that serious. I wouldn't have cared, but I would have told him to put it away while on watch and that would have been the end of it.

[@hazegrayprepper4396]

Same here. I'm a retired Chief Petty Officer as well, and that usually (85% of the time) squashed that issue. If they did it again, then it would be written counseling.

[@spacepeanut8993]

We had "Spiderman" in Izmir, Turkey. After the last bell tolled, he decided to climb down a mooring line. Failed spectacularly. EVERY MARINE had his liberty suspended for 3 months.

[@HD-mp6yy]

If an officers hears about an enlisted man doing something stupid then the entire unit needs to be punished for not stopping or resolving the situation before it reaches him

[@MrRAGE-md5rj]

Yeah, that don't sit right with me. Especially not for 3 months.

[@MrRAGE-md5rj]

I couldn't endure that, not for 3 months, no.

[@spacepeanut8993]

@@HD-mp6yy Corrective action was taken, on the enlisted side. Some might say on a daily basis.

[@bigholli8449]

Navy vet here. This story checks out with my overall experience.

[@Yourname942]

I have a fidget cube, and it genuinely helps me focus on tasks.

[@stephencooper5040]

7:56 thanks for repeating yourself in different words. Rah.

[@jessec7048]

I want to know WHO ELSE got yelled at. That was probably the throttleman. There's also another probably more senior EMN, ETN, and AN OFFICER within 3 feet of this kid. So if no one else had a problem and it...

[@jessec7048]

15 years of sea duty on submarines... it's crap when a kid gets the short end when others should've fixed him first. there's probably more behind the scenes than people know or will know, like there better have been a Chief to CO conversation how they F-up not taking care of it sooner keeping him from being de-nuked.

[@ranger51262]

Bad Leadership 101- I had 2 days and a wake up, clearing almost complete. Flight out of (Undisclosed) Country all set. New NCOIC gives me new order to Re-Issue from CID because we have a training mission for appx one week in the Jungle....hold the phone buddy, I'm out of here...Big argument ensues, he tried to lay hands ..long story short, he went to the hospital and i went to another Country.

[@robertkramer9153]

While never serving I can understand from a leadership perspective the distraction from critical tasks, but as a former night shifter the opposite side I can also understand that some people have to be doing something to stay awake. For me, it would have been a conversation, seeing where the problem was, is it with the brain teaser, could that be substituted for something else, and how much attention is being taken from the task? The “non disciplinary” disciplinary note that stayed on ship was a nice touch to say that it was talked about as a pre verbal warning.

[@kenhubble6329]

As a new e-6 we had a platoon problem, no motivation. The squad leaders got together and had a platoon meeting e-6 and down. After some discussion I asked a team leader to summarize how he felt. He responded with "demoralized"..... Walking away i turned to our senior squad leader and asked how we fix demoralized, his answer "we don't".... meaning of course it wasn't ours to fix. Our best course of action that we pushed for was shower and px run with no timeline, infantry loves us some px time. We had to take them out of service if you will and reset their brains, we could have used some fidget puzzles.

[@ManiaMac1613]

Warfare pins. They are meant to prove that you are a true specialist in your command's warfare area, and back in the day they were difficult to earn, but also gave you instant respect from your peers regardless of rank. My leadership forced me to get my warfare pin. They micromanaged me every step of the way, stole all of my precious, limited free time on an already stressful deployment, all for a pin that EVERYONE on the ship was required to get. It wasn't a worthwhile accomplishment, it was a useless participation trophy. The experience damn near made me quit the Navy.

[@mrmr-ju2zi]

i feel you in that regards i was lucky to avoid getting my surface pin but when they were pushing it i actually got yelled at for getting too much sleep (when i was a wardroom fsa/ also getting my inrate quals) at the time i was getting like 4 hrs maybe 5 on a sunday

[@ManiaMac1613]

@mrmr-ju2zi If enough of the ship's crew has the pin then the ship gets a pennant. That's it, that's the only reason to get it; a cosmetic that no longer means anything special.

[@jthomas.]

In the submarine world, warfare pin (SS) was (still is?) mandatory for all. You weren't sub qualified until you earned it, and If you didn't finish it in a set time period, you would be removed from the command. You also had to redo the qualification for each boat you served on. ETA: as a non-qual NUB you were also the lowest form of life onboard and afforded little/no priveleges until you finished; e.g. don't get caught burning flix instead of working on your qual card.

[@mrmr-ju2zi]

@jthomas. my brother (who was a nuke on a sub) said the same thing got a few stories and called me a bunch of stupid things cause I was not qualified like he was

[@Shortfuse39]

I too refused to get my ESWS. I had less than 2 yrs left and they made me get it. There were 2 of us that were short and didn't want to get it, so what they did was (first take away liberty) then "fast track" us basically go to each work center and get our PQS signed. Then our "board" was scheduled and it took maybe an hr. I remember FCC asking me "what is the process from target acquisition to missile impact." I said "hell if I know" and he replied "let me walk you through it." I didn't know shit about it. Still got my pin. My LPO had questioned me, why do you not want your pin? My reply was, "I am getting out, it won't matter in the civilian world." He was all "what if you have some crusty old sailor ask if you ever got it." I was like, if they care about me getting my pin while I was here, then I don't want to work for them. I got out in 2004, I have never, ever been asked if I got my pin. Am I glad I did it... no, it was pointless and proved it was "for the commands benefit." Another example of the Navy screwing me on what I want and me doing everything it wants. I live by Never Again Volunteer Yourself!

[@hanging_out_with_Mp]

“What’s that thing in your hand?”. Is this the appropriate question to ask on a submarine?

[@rrmordikay]

150 Men leave port and 75 couples return.

[@subvet694]

I guess that would depend if they are in their bunk or standing in the chow line...

[@benbillybobjoe]

I was a sonar technician on SSN 771 during the Iraq War. We did 6 hour shifts and 18 hour "days". Boredom is a constant, but while standing watch there is PLENTY to keep your attention in the Reactor Control room. There are several watchstander responsibilities and while activities like studying for qualifications is often permitted, poop can happen in a moment. I've been there, I've seen "poop" happen. Besides, look at all the articles the past decade of submarine accidents, its a training problem. I feel for the guy but all 180 crew depend on those watchstanders not being distracted.

[@Cowboycomando54]

Then you know reading the same procedure for 3000th time in a techmanual gets real old. Sides, rod riders and some of the wire biters get a nice air conditioned room sit in while the wrench monkeys sweat it out in the plant.

[@rlbadger1698]

Yup see my comment.

[@benbillybobjoe]

​@Cowboycomando54 he was a 3rd class petty officer. It means he probably just finished his dolphins. There were plenty of manuals to read.

[@raymarshall6721]

Like cowboy said... At least his brain is active doing something other than reading some manual / other material which is even more demoralizing than realizing leadership sucks. Not everyone is a book worm nor does everyone want to pick the boot to be some career kiss ass

[@shiftygypsy89migh41]

Because the "studying" isnt any more distracting than say.....a little brain teaser? tbh when i was going for Warfare quals i would say that shit was more Distracting from all the shit you had to memorize.

[@zacharyepps6683]

As a Coastie who served about two years on a 270', I stood various watches, like helm & lookout and aux watch. My boatswain's mates and supervisors were very adamant about standing a vigilant watch. For instance, there were always two of us on "helm and lookout," but no talking was allowed. We were to constantly scan the horizon for logs, drug runners, and the like. I imagine the same was expected of this sailor. I assume he had a watch similar to what the engineers in the engine room or the personnel in the Combat Information Center (CIC) had, and for that, you've got to keep your eye on the 8 ball, or someone is going to chew your bits off. As for the port and starboard issue, I think if it was isolated to just one sailor, this probably wouldn't have happened. However, if multiple people were doing this on watch, then I can see why it was addressed.

[@nunya404]

Me and my pops went on the same mission [NG lol] but he was another teams commander [he was an 04, i just made e5]. His guys [03s, e8, e7s, etc] cried to me that he took spades away. Told them thats just him loving you like his own kids so it couldnt be toxic leadership. I also had daddy issues growing up so i can see where their thought process came from.

[@killerqueenbiteszadusto1771]

A bored man is a dangerous man

[@TheAleutiansolution]

The second I saw EMN I knew exactly what the deal was. Reactor runs the tightest shit show in the Navy. I have personally seen 13 people from a single watch station get sent to mast and then administratively discharged because they wrote 27 on a log that was supposed to read 72 and it didn’t change for like 3 days. On a professional level; he was distracted. Distractions can cause significant problems and with him being in the plant, there’s a possibility that something could have gone catastrophically wrong. Even if that chance is basically equal to zero, it isn’t zero and therefore could have happened. Personally; I don’t think what he was doing was all that bad and a lot of the times the regulations for watch standing are completely unreasonable. For example; the EDORM states that there is to be absolutely no talking in central control unless it is for watch updates or reporting issues. Can you imagine being at sea for months and then sitting in a room for however many hours and not talking to the person next to you? People have fallen asleep for that exact reason.

[@tomaskren8686]

I was the ERS on a watchteam that didn't like their EOOW so for 6 hours straight that's what happened. Malicious Compliance at it's best.

[@Bhutt_Touch]

1:16 are we talking about military leadership or the way my wife treats me?

[@jessewhitaker8347]

Yes

[@kilel]

@@Bhutt_Touch Boffum

[@LORDBEAR272]

Both actually

[@bumblebee623]

Obama and biden. Are they ur wife?

[@zharklm]

Former Father here, I'm still a Father, but I used to be too. These puzzles have difficulty rankings and require your full attention to try and solve. The system that I setup with my kids was that they had to be able to separate and put back together the 2 pieces within 10 seconds before they could be "promoted" to the next tier of difficulty. As these puzzles require your full attention to "work on", and not knowing the workload and rec time of the Seamen, I would let anyone who wanted to be involved start on the easiest difficulty of puzzle, and they would be allowed X minutes per X hours (assuming no rec time) of hands on with the puzzles. The rest of the time is only mental and theoretical. Keeping minds sharp while maintaining attention to the work at hand. Seamen that could pass the separate and put back together challenge would be allowed to advance to the next tier of difficulty. Hands on time would be staggered based on workload, participation, and availability of the required puzzle difficulties. Participants and their ranking would be public, encouraging competition, accountability, and camaraderie. Difficulty promotion tests would be private, and would need the endorsement of 1 Seaman that was also a participant, and 1 Seaman that was not.

[@RvnKnight]

Sitting in White Sands with my MLRS Battalion when I was SPC, I had to keep myself awake on midnight radio watch for the FDC. I was also the SDC (safety data calculator) and I did my charts on my laptop. I was also a fairly decent programmer so I wrote a program that gave a Battery wide view of our status at a glance (which my Battery and Battalion Commanders and NCOs loved) and I rewrote the AFATDS (except for the comms protocols, maps, and the actual ballistic data) on my laptop. That did not go over as well. My command teams praised me when appropriate and made me eat boot leather when necessary. Oddly, I think the only reason I didn't get squished because of it was that I was the second best FDC operator we had across the battalion and that I was on to something with what I did, especially since the TADPOLE came out about a year or two later.

[@nightowlbcs]

I’ve had shitty leadership, O side E side, I’ve led shit bag sailors(sea lawyers, and junior sailors to me that work ethic and drive after Covid instilled this sense of I’m not gonna work or do anything). Now I’m not a bubblehead but my brother is, depending on the department is how much I would care about this, this could of been handled at the lowest level possible and not having the Master Chief or the CO be involved. As long as work is getting done not falling asleep and not on a critical system, let the junior sailor be also quals and getting warfare qualed is huge for them. Mass punishment sucks and will drive a unit/ship/boat into the ground quickly.

[@johnryan9215]

First of all, love your work. I think there’s two sides of this. One, the officer might’ve over reacted. The crew can’t stay focused on something boring 24/7. Besides, they’ve been doing it for a year without any bad outcome. On the other hand, you can’t have the crew missing some important thing like where the ships going, O2 content, etc. that would be bad and the officers ass would get ripped a new one over it since it’s leaderships fault when there’s a failure. Officer should’ve pulled him aside and said, hey I’m worried about focus on the job. If you start getting board, ok, but keep it in your pocket the rest of the time. If I have anyone failing their duties because of these things I’ll have to tell the entire crew to quiet it. And I don’t want to do that. Of course you could make a public announcement to the crew about this as well. That way they’re all aware that their officers care about their needs, while also emphasizing that they can’t have a failure in a tin can below the sea.

[@Fissionable]

Strongly disagree with this. There is zero tolerance for any distractions within maneuvering. Nuclear power is not a joke.

[@HD-mp6yy]

The Captain(O-6) doesn't pull sailors aside he pulls his officers and NCOs to the side and gives the sailor a slap on the wrist so that everyone starts doing what they are supposed to

[@johnryan9215]

@ I agree that nuclear is no joke. Especially on something as secret as a sub. However, if you are so bored you’re falling asleep (sounds like they are, but I have no evidence), then you need to do something. Technically you can’t chew gum in uniform, but I brought it to the field for FTX when I was on fire guard to stay awake. It did the trick.

[@Fissionable]

@@johnryan9215 So rules vary, but I knew plenty of guys who would dip or chew gum to stay up. Pretty standard practice. I doubt this was a sleep issue. And if it was, should've gotten a relief. I know alot of people in the comments here think that something bad happened, or some miscarriage of justice is at hand. Thats just not even close to the truth. He got a written counseling. It's not maintained in his record, it's something for the boat to have so if you keep messing up, they have a paper trail of continued behavior. Removing him from watch was the correct thing to do right off the bat, and the only people who really suffered were the other EMN's that had to cover his watch.

[@johnryan9215]

@@Fissionable I don’t disagree with you. I agree if they can’t do the job, someone else needs to do it instead. I also agree it seems they put a temporary paper trail in there that won’t effect him in future, only for reference. Which I think was a god call since no one and nothing was harmed. I’m not trying to argue here. I think we agree. I’m on a phone with limited time to text. Can’t put everything in words here.

[@BudroThePious]

10:49 The good news is the water won't slowly crush you, it will instantly crush you.

[@bvf1420]

Years back (2014-2018ish) I added items to a care package for members deploying to a sub and on the list of requests were items like sudoku puzzles. Was told that being in a metal tube gets monotonous and that they help. 🤷‍♂️

[@ArduinoAlan]

As a submarine officer (and by extension, also a nuke) i have 2 observations (which I'll translate as best as possible). 1. It was brought up by the SQWEPS (works for the O-6 in charge of the O-5 CO of the boat). This means, like you pointed out, it probably wasn't a problem until boss man brought it up (to the highest senior enlisted responsible for both the sailor and work location) and eveyone went "oh yaaaaaa. this probably isnt good". Hence the sudden give a care. 2. given that it wasn't a problem but a correction needed to be made, I love that it was a nploc (letter... which he probably knew would be passed around). mast would wholly unfair but it serves to reset the standard that this wasn't ok without ruining the young sailors career.

[@ethancarroll7027]

I have to side with the seamen, they were doing it for a year before leadership caught on. If leadership is oblivious to that for so long, they have bigger problems.

[@Mor4me]

Just so…

[@kellyj5610]

"Maneuvering" is the name for the control center for the Engine room. Its also where the nuclear reactor is operated and monitored 24/7/365 for the entire life of the boat. Because of this the rules are pretty strict in the engineering spaces. Anything that can detract from safe operation of the propulsion plant is forbidden. Hence, the watch team that was caught with all the brainteaser toys ended up disqualified as a trust issue until whatever remediation was completed. Anything less when it comes to nuclear power, the Commanding Officer WILL be fired (the Loss of Confidence thing the Navy loves to use). There would have been no problems if the crew did the puzzles in the off-watch time. But once they started playing around with the puzzles on watch...

[@Elkadetodd]

A bored soldier is either asleep or doing destructive things. So you'd better provide an alternate distraction, or make the watches REALLY short - an hour tops, and then you move to a different job. Guy tries to find the most innocuous possible activity to alleviate that, everyone is fine with it for a year, and then suddenly it's a problem? No.

[@subicstationditosailor4053]

Undisciplined Seaman? Say it isn't so.

[@stephenmckee6495]

To relate this to something similar for the army folks….. Would you want a guy on sentry duty playing with fidget games instead of being always on the alert? Doing those instead of being ready to give the alarm in case of fire and disorder? The sailors in question - Maneuvering Watchstanders - are the folks actually running the reactor plant. And Lord knows when I did it, there were things we did to keep ourselves alert and occupied - and when we crossed a line we would get in trouble for it because our job while on watch was monitoring and operating the nuclear plant. I’m kinda on the Command’s side with this (which is interesting given how I was while enlisted) - do what you want to do when off watch, but when operating the nuclear propulsion plant, focus on that.

[@dylanparks2968]

As someone that served on subs in the us, if you are in the sonar shack you are not supposed do anything other than watch your screen but leaderships solution was way to heavy handed. They could have just told everyone on the ship to not use the brain teasers on watch. Port and starboard watch was brutal, 12 hours on watch and 12 hours off and the 12 hours off is not really off since you still have to clean, do maintenance, or other things you need to do.

[@scottmyers6441]

Retired submariner here, little of both on both sides. The command should of put a stop to watch standers doing things outside of watch related activities way earlier. And the junior sailors known better, but if no body says anything they are gonna keep doing it. It's honestly not even that severe of a reaction, a watch team got removed from watch standing pending an upgrade, nobody got Masted, and a couple people got a slap on the wrist. Dudes probably gonna catch more flak from posting this.

[@davidk8184]

The Chiefs should have been on top of that.

[@thanos9846]

DD214 and never, ever look back.

[@Daniel-y9d2n]

@@thanos9846 I was so disgusted by the end of my 21 years I walked off without a retirement ceremony and without telling anyone who didn't absolutely have to know. F you, pay me.

[@benbillybobjoe]

@3:30 we call it a boat because (at least the Los Angeles class) is too short to be called a ship.

[@Right-Is-Right]

What is the length to be a ship? OK trick qu action, who knows. Because the test is if it can carry a boat, it's a ship, and if it can't, it's a boat. A ship has boats, not a boat having boats

[@TheMysteryGamingCrew]

​@@Right-Is-Right that was and still is true, but since the US Navy ship have gotten so large they all would be considered ships. Now our definition is dependent on how they lean when they turn, a boat leans into the turn and a ship leans against the turn, which is why subs are boats. -Me (a current us submariner)

[@LincolnMiller-di8qv]

@@TheMysteryGamingCrew enjoy your internet time, I got to tour the new USS NJ, those boats are tiny, and the racks are smaller. thanks for sitting out there for four months at a time.

[@Stabsify]

My dad ultimately left the Navy due to issues with toxic leadership. The incident that happened to push that over the edge for him in summery he was a boiler engineer in the 1970s while at dock a commanding officer in charge of the dock told him to take a forklift and move some boxed to a different area of the docks. No biggy not technically his job but he does what was ordered and as he finished toxic XO from him ship which always had a hard on for the boiler guys came out and tore into him. Bitched him out for moving those boxes there and whatnot and after that exchange he went and talked to the captain and resigned which the captain didn't blame him for. They stayed in contact for years after that because the captain loved the boiler guys and let them slide all the time on things like being on deck out of uniform to cool down from working the boilers. That was the heart of the issue the XO had with them.

[@jneely2007]

Simple solution is to tell the crew they can't do the puzzles when on duty. They can do them as much as they like off duty. Looking away or not paying attention on duty can lead to something being missed. Whether that is walking a post at the armory or sitting in front of a screen on a sub. Act like a grown up, stay focused on your job until you are relieved. People's lives may depend on your focus and attention on duty.

[@yolsil775]

AW YEAHHHHH new Unhappy Polices video!