Toyota Landcruiser Troopy fuel consumption (why it's so bad) | Auto Expert John Cadogan

How can two engines have similar power & torque but hugely different fuel consumption? Are bigger (capacity) engines intrinsically thirstier? Details next.
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Here’s a question from a dude named Dave, concerning the King (of mediocrity) - Toyota.
"I'm comparing a Landcruiser Troopie with a new Prado. The Troopie has a V8 with 151kW & 430Nm. The Prado has an inline four-cylinder with 150kW & 500Nm. (Approximately the same power/torque.) But the Troopy uses about 15L/100 compared to the Prado at 10L/100 (both ballpark real world figures, not the ADR fantasies).
"If they output about the same power, where is the big difference in fuel economy coming from? The weight of each car? Aerodynamics? Gearing? Feeding four extra cylinders, with extra engine internal friction?
"If they were the same weight, and had the same Cd value, would they accelerate/overtake the same and have the same fuel usage, even though one is V8 and one an I4?" - David Deere
The data:
Diesel = 45 kJ/g (and if you do that once a second = 45kW)
So, 2.2g/sec = 100kW (of potential heat energy)
Combustion efficiency = 40% = 40kW @ crankshaft
15% loss via transmission = 34kW @ wheels
Prado:
2.755cc
6sp (5th = 0.687:1, 6th = 0.580:1, diff = 3.91:1)
265/65R17 (Circ. = 2.26m)
150kW @ 3400rpm
500Nm @ 1600-2800rpm
Bore x stroke: 92.0 x 103.6mm
ADR economy: 7.9 (combined, L/100km)
Kerb weight: 2325 (GXL)
100km/h = 27.8m/s
= 737 wheel rpm
= 2883 tailshaft rpm
= 1672 engine rpm (6th)
= 1981 engine rpm (5th)
Total swept cylinder area = 120,000 mm^2
Troopie:
5sp (5th = 0.75:1, diff = 3.91:1)
225/95R16 (Circumf = 2.62m)
4.461cc (+62% move volume)
151 @ 3400rpm
430Nm @ 1200-3200rpm
Bore x stroke: 86.0 x 96.0mm
ADR economy: 10.7 (L/100km) - about 35% higher than Prado
Kerb weight 2265kg
100km/h = 27.8m/s
= 636 wheel rpm
= 2487 tailshaft rpm
= 1865 engine rpm (5th) = 11.5% higher than Prado in 6th
Total swept cylinder area = 207,000 mm^2
= 72.5% more area than Prado
** but at 100km/h rpms are also 11.5% higher, so total cylinder wall friction = 81% higher (ballpark)
** Hyundai/Kia 2.2 @ 147 kW & 440 Nm I4
** Mazda 2.2 @ 140 kW & 450 Nm I4
Plus: Troopy needs to drive twice as many valves to do the same job, pumping more oil and water, etc. (Not as volumetrically efficient, and higher pumping losses, etc.)
And the single turbo 4.5 V8 is a rubbish engine - like it’s the cheap, slutty version of the 4.5 TT, which makes 32.5% more peak power, 51% more peak torque and returns slightly better fuel economy - despite being in a platform weighing 500kg more.

[@stevendouglas6593]

I drive a Troopie for work every day and I have never noticed poor fuel consumption. I do have a company fuel card however.

[@rfmonkey4942]

i also don't notice things that other people pay for,,,

[@BubblesTheCat1]

Stupid comment. Work out the fuel consumption yourself

[@jpw0206]

🤣🤣🤣

[@TheTamashek]

Remember it's a v8...a normal V6 troopie I believe is ok

[@TheTamashek]

70 series maybe is overrated..but not really..it has diff locks

[@danielperdikis5598]

Very well put together explanation. However, the public needs to remember the 70 series vehicles are built for a specific purpose. They are a completely different vehicle compared to Hilux, Prado, Ranger, Triton, Patrol, etc. The 70 series is designed mostly for durability and in standard form are capable of twice the work and twice the mileage of smaller vehicles. Hence they are most popular with military, mines, farming, and remote overland travel. You will rarely see these engines undergo a major overhaul under 500,000 + kms. Yes they are underpowered, slow, less efficient and expensive but they will last longer and are not designed for day to day urban use. The small 4 cylinder diesels producing the same if not more power comes with compromise. In standard form, they will run 2 to 3 times more boost pressure to get the same output, 70 series around 8psi, and Hilux/Prado around 20psi or more. At 14psi, you effectively double the engine capacity. With these engines highly strung, they are not as durable and correct maintenance is more critical. I have seen late model 4 cylinder diesels let go anywhere from 120,000 to 250,000kms More turbo failures than internal component failure but they are more susceptible than the larger underpowered V8.

[@andrewsummers6711]

Hi John, I have owned both these vehicles and fuel economy both city/country are very similar 10.8L per 100k's. The difference is hook the boat up and the troopy/V8 uses less than the harder working in-line 4.

[@danielhill9080]

Interesting video, John, decent explanation... Unfortunately, the one thing you neglected to explain was that the V8 in the troopy is deliberately detuned by Toyota, to maximize it's reliability and overall lifespan. Sure, you can juice a little motor up to within an inch of it's life, get a similar performance, but it'll never replace a motor designed for ultimate reliability in the bush, where your very life might depend on it. Don't take it personally, but this is a really common issue with city people, who just compare numbers on a whiteboard, without considering the kind of isolated and rugged environment these vehicles are designed for.

[@davecody]

John, I absolutely love your clear yet detailed explanation of the beer garden physics of fuel efficiency. You didn’t explore the topic, but presumably a more effective turbo on the Troopy would indeed allow it to be more fuel efficient. A video on that subject would no doubt be very enlightening.

[@liddz434]

Aftermarket companies specialise in this area as well.

[@ianmac2963]

Fortunately I'm retired. Therefore, I have ample time to watch your entire back catalogue! Thanks JC.

[@mitchs2148]

Still just in the first quarter or so of this video but I have to say man I do love your beer garden lessons. The combustion 101 segment might seem basic as fuck to some and it is I guess but as a layman I appreciate your no fat on the bone explanation of things 👍 same thing applies for all of your videos and most definitely all the recent 4x4 themed ones. Cheers

[@Jon.S]

Once again a very interesting breakdown, just the right amount of detail without going full engineer, quality as always John 👍

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

Now we need EE to go full engineer on it. I bet his car drawing skills would be on point.

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

Now we need EE to go full engineer on it. I bet his car drawing skills would be on point.

[@Jon.S]

@@SoulTouchMusic93 I think EE is still in that “being careful what he says” part of life, which John left behind a few years ago 😀 A collaboration on automotive engineering stuff would always be welcome though, both of them do great stuff 👍

[@BradleyEdwardAnderso]

Partly because of you insistence on a proper tow vehicle. I bought a Toyota Tundra 4.6l RWD truck to pull our 2400lb camper (in USA). Very happy I did that. Thank you!

[@darthvader8433]

During a trip to beat the big outdoors into submission last year (25,000km from WA to Cape York via Tassie and Birdsville), i had the TD42 beefed up with a larger ball bearing turbo, intetcooler and pump. Dyno said 140kw at the wheels through the 4 speed Nissan auto. Don't think I'll get any more ambitious given the losses mentioned, the TD42 must be approaching its sensible reliability limit. It's in a 2k3 GU Patrol wagon pulling a 1.7T camper usually under 90kmh. For those interested it's running an 11mm pump and 20psi max. And yes, lots of guages watching stuff.

[@raimundasstankevicius5709]

I just loved how you used that wrench to point at the "chalkboard". Reminded me of school and put a grin on my face. (smiley emote)

[@surfing4theloveofit]

Great vid John, yes the Prado is more efficient, but if you remap a troopy you get much better economy, but you can also live in a troopy it is a different animal, I can go bush for a much longer time in my troopy the in my Prado I love both, thanks for your great simplicity of explaining the two options 👍

[@seanworkman431]

Very informative. I had a F100 with 6l V8 petrol and although it was a thirsty beast it was a truck and the fuel consumption did not change wether it was fully loaded or empty, just the ability to accelerate and the relative speed capabilities varied. The troopy is an industrial vehicle and under load will out perform but the Prado has more creature comfort. Put a fully loaded trailer behind each one and the compare.

[@danielflack7902]

Ah the V8 troopy, put 10 people in the back on a cold winter morning and then try and find the rear demister switch. 70 grand of pure poverty.

[@markh.6687]

It's easier to be poor like that when you're rich.

[@jimtekkit]

Since when do you need to fit 10 people in the back? And why would they be expecting luxury?

[@alexanderrosales7675]

What sissy uses a troopy like a luxury vehicle, we used them to haul crates full of ammo and hand grenades in the back over muddy tracks in Colombia

[@saltydog888]

@@jimtekkit on a job site. Bench seats both sides.

[@Rollin8.0]

@@jimtekkit 80k for a basic shitbox designed 50 years ago with a piss weak engine, well, you'd expect luxury because it has nothing else to offer.

[@tlov9255]

Great to see these type of tech talk videos. I work for toyota as a mechanic and the 70 series 4.5L is a dinosaur in everyway but we still love it haha

[@shanedwyer4881]

Thanks Professor Cadogan. I thought most of that was going to fly over my head but most of it hit me square in the forehead and I think it sunk in. Now I’m off for a lie down!!

[@Ben-xy3jn]

That’s some Julius Sumner Miller shit right there Cdog!!!! I like it.. I bet all that talk of force, power and acceleration gets the Ming moles worked into a right frenzy... keep it up..👍

[@onneb90]

So, did Toyota pinch your idea, John? At the 19:05 minute mark. Nailed it

[@2secondslater]

From experience on working on both engines over many years, I have a fair bit of anecdotal evidence that the 4.5L 1VD-FTV in the troop carrier and other Toyota models has a much greater life expectancy, or, time before overhaul, than the 4 cylinder turbo diesel 1KD-FTV/2KD-FTV in well maintained scenarios. Whether that balances out the extra fuel expenses over the lifetime of the V8 turbo diesel engine, I am not so sure.

[@mwat22]

Yes because it's understressed and underworked

[@yanmak2363]

@@mwat22 Yeah, having one less Turbo but the same sized sump means the Oil doesn't have to work as hard. Also the cooling jacket is designed to deal with a twin turbo system.

[@timfreeman2603]

As a fellow Engineer but not Mechanical that was good for a listen. The fact that I drive a 200 also hooked me.

[@TheTamashek]

Extremely well explained, now I understand the science behind the low power in the troopie even the torque is even lower, huge surprise

[@AK-ny5bz]

This video changed my view about smaller capacity and leases cylinder count engines

[@shanestagljar7885]

I have found when towing heavy weights smaller engines use a lot more fuel because u can't lift your foot off the floor . Trucks running interstate that have a motor with less than 400hp and 62 tonnes will be running for an extra 2 hours between Sydney and Melbourne because they can't get up the hills at a decent rate

[@alphaomega5721]

John, once again superbly described. I'm comfortable with the concepts (I'm a mech engineer) but you make them so much more accessible. Thank you.

[@bmonck5110]

What a great channel. Real info to expand our real knowledge rather than just repeating crap that is wrong !

[@2pintsofcremedementh]

Dave should take a good long test drive in a 70 series with the V8 diesel (then buy the Prado). John's done an excellent analysis of the data, but drive it and you'll understand qualitatively what the science actually translates to. The 1VD-FTV V8 "feels" like eight cylinders all fighting each other like piglets at the tit. You don't have to do the maths to realise it's not a very efficient engine, you can hear and feel all the energy that is being wasted when you drive it. I was well into the swing of selling these trucks a few years ago when I got hold of a Japanese fire tender based on a 1991 70 series with the 1HZ straight six. It had done just 9000km and the smoothness of the 1HZ was a revelation. Equally eye-opening was that despite the naturally-aspirated 96kw/288nm of the old 4.2l and the fire tender being over 3 tonnes at the kerb, it certainly didn't feel any more gutless than the V8.

[@Treeesmith]

Had a v8 tipper with a chip bin, weighed 3t empty. The difference between the v8 and the i6 is night amd day, especially when towing 2.5T and carrying a load of mulch. Yeah the 6 is smooth but the v8 gets there in daylight

[@chrismartin5129]

John i just learned a heap after dinner! Facts v marketing. Love it, just like yesterday's chat on Ford AU. Keep keeping us informed. Chris

[@jasperdomacena6491]

3.0L 4 cylinder Turbo Diesel all day doesn't sound as good as a V8 but the 4 cylinder will do most job in the most economical way possible

[@tonymontana897]

I agree. As soon as they figured out that by adding a turbo to a 4 cyl diesel, it went from drab and gutless to wooohooo !! Now that's the tickit !!

[@johnreno8909]

this car (tlc-70-ser) is absolutely fantastic car. it's a practically almost ideal perfection. only 4-things are missing in this car. I would say very important things are missing. those things are: 1. unfortunately the engine in on timing belt instead of timing chain or would be even even better gear-set. 2. unfortunately not optional automatic transmission. 3. unfortunately not optional soft top / removable top/doors options. 4. unfortunately no panoramic roof option. that 4-things would make this car just unbelievably cool. other than that if you want to know which 2-cars are the very best in the world,.. as a most durable, reliable , long-lasting, low-maintenance and etc, that would be this tlc-70-ser. and Nissan patrol (super-safari. y61-model. btw is still in production to date like tlc-70-ser) (don't get confused with the modern last model patrol y62 model, this is different animal. super-safari is y61 model not y62.)... ..,./// as for fuels consumption for diesel 4.2 non-turbine, naturally aspirated engine on tlc-70-series the diesel consumption specifically on that engine is in the city-20-25-liters on 100km. and on the hwy is 10-15-liters per 100km. depending on driving habits and defending many other factories for both cases. but this is real life info. and one more thing: never!!!, never!! listen to official fuel-consumption numbers on any car . what car passport or computer fuel-consumption data saying on your dash screen. is always a huge lie. difference between the official and real life consumption numbers are just ridiculous. the difference can be even 200%-300% or even more which just unheard of lie.

[@Tedkelvin]

yeah the y61 patrol is miles better than the 70series.

[@jimbojones2457]

The V8 will use less fuel when towing or under heavy loads than a 4 cylinder, which is what they're designed to do. Not to mention the 4 cylinder will wear out faster. Get a Prado and tow 2.5 tones with it and then do that with the troopy. Then make another video with your findings. I'll share my results with you. I own a 79 series Landcruiser with this exact engine. On the highway i get 11 litres per 100 unloaded (not towing) and no headwind. When towing a ton of camper trailer it barely changes and goes up to 12 to 13 litres per 100kms. 3 years ago i had a brand new Hilux with the same engine as the Prado you're talking about (1GD). Unloaded on the highway the Hilux would use less fuel at around 10 litres per 100kms. Towing the same trailer it jumped up to 14 litres per 100. It used MORE fuel than my Landcruiser. And since fitting a Steinbauer power module to the Cruiser economy has improved even more as it boosts the turbo more getting more air into the engine along with more fuel. And that's only a very mild tune of 25% increase. The trick is you spend less time accelerating to get up to speed, so it uses less overall fuel. Yes, it's drinking more when the foot is down, but the foot spends less time being down. Cruising speed makes the biggest difference to a Landcruiser's fuel economy. And a lot of cars for that matter. Wind drag is massive as you pointed out. If i sit on 110km/h, it will use considerably more fuel. A much bigger difference than towing. Towing my camper trailer only uses 2 litres per 100kms more at any given speed. Driving at 110 with no trailer compared to 90km/h will make a bigger difference, more like 3 to 4 litres per 100kms. Show me a 4 cylinder 2.8 litre with 6 to 700,000kms on it. Then show me how many and how hard they've worked to get there. Plenty of 1VD-FTV V8's out there with that amount of genuine kms on them which i may point out have worked hard. Longevity is King and i STILL believe in the old saying," There's no replacement for displacement". Show me a Kenworth prime mover with a 2.8 litre 4 cylinder in it. It wouldn't even turn the wheels mate. A Kenworth cruising down the road with no trailer will use more fuel than a 4 cylinder. Now put 100 tones behind it and try again. Big engines do big work and small engines do small work. It's as simple as that.

[@ryantaylor6530]

The troopie is for the man who lives by the catch-cry of "no replacement for displacement" and would never be seen in a 4-cylinder.

[@kloschuessel773]

They cry about 6 cylinders

[@yengsabio5315]

Great query! Listening to your response now, John! Lots'a love, cheers, & Mabuhay, from tropical Philippines!

[@pandipapamihali4522]

Thank you John you are a true engineer. Is what I do when I chose a car. Choosing longer stroke engine and final drive ratio.

[@driftke70]

my troopy uses 15L/100 with big tyres roof rack and loaded rear setup, id imagine any other 4x4 with the same load in it would use very similar. Not sure what the comparison is. It also gets those figures towing a 1t trailer almost every day and living in a hilly area.

[@thehairygolfer]

My friend Rob must be a V8 as he consumes vast amounts of liquid.

[@TheTamashek]

Which country

[@tonyrich7011]

Thanks John, once again true to your Engineering background. Appreciate the truth which is often overlooked. Good old gasoline 350 Chevrolet. Available from 150 HP to 370 HP with fuel consumption from not much to not really good. Fuel burn at best for most internal combustion is 1/2lb of fuel per horsepower hour. Look at early turbojets (Boeing 707/Douglas DC8, Pratt & Whitneyt JT3C) vs turbo compound piston engines (Lockheed Super constellation Curtis Wright R3350DA3). Flying westward from London, one needed a stop at Gander in Newfoundland to then get to New York. The other being piston engined could fly London - Los Angeles on one fill. It is horse for Courses and what one wants. A 3.0L Evinrude can make 250 HP at 5700 RPM. Weighs in at 300 kilos. A Fairbanks Morse four cylinder hot bulb can also make the same HP at 30 tonnes in weight. Efficiencies as you explain so well is what drives engineering. Most punters don't really care as long as the Hyundai Santa Fe with mum and kids going to the sports on Saturday's causes at least 15 near miss accidents, 40 frustrated drivers, but as long as she gets there with phone glued to her ear and the children can play sport prior to supermarket, fast food and gets 7.0L/100KM... Then who am I to argue about road users...

[@id10tcertified]

Love it, I’ve got near two toolboxes full of old spanners that look like that, most were handed down from my granddad who was born in 1899: I’ve got tools from him and an old guy (RIP) who lived across the road that I’ve no clue about: every now and then something I watch on KZbin will have something the same or similar... damn they worked hard back then.

[@pjthatsfine3591]

Toyota should have kept developing their straight 6 diesels, a mistake to go to the V8

[@Jay-en7bw]

They are back to 6s sacked the 8s

[@davidhall5844]

Ever driven the v8 twin turbo diesel?

[@davidhall5844]

10 litres per 100 kms from my 2009 sahara

[@carlmenzel8744]

@@Jay-en7bw yeh but v6 should be a inline 6 better low end touque then v8 or v6 the reason trucks larger tractors run in lines not v engines and they last longer

[@6foot8jesuspilledpureblood82]

v8 all day cityboy

[@chrisjohnston5961]

In a time not long ago I was the proud owner of a vdj76 2010 LandCruiser wagon. Loved it went like a cut cat but I couldn't complain about the fuel consumption. On highway fuel consumption was 10.1 ltrs to 100 klms. And if I was towing my 1975 Viscount 18ft caravan ( without the combined shiter/dinning room) the fuel consumption was at 10.5 ltrs to 100 klms.

[@chrisjohnston5961]

Btw that wasn't driving it at 80 kph, it was driven at posted speed limits.

[@spudboy1328]

@@chrisjohnston5961 That doesn't square with my experience at all. We just did Adelaide -> Birdsville -> Simpson -> Mt Dare-> Adelaide in a 2020 GXL 76 series. 2 swags on the roof and supplies for a 3 week trip. On bitumen at 100 or 110 we were getting 14.6L/100. Through the desert we were getting 16.7L/100. Your 10.5L/100 towing doesn't seem remotely possible, even if your 76 is running an older 6 cylinder engine (I don't know that much about LandCruisers , and when the engines changed). You must have had a tail wind, and been running downhill to get 10's!!

[@chrisjohnston5961]

No she was a 4.5ltr V8 turbo diesel running an aftermarket chip

[@johncramer8524]

Thanks for the indepth explanation, awesome as allways for us tech nerds, love it.

[@paulgreisman5591]

Bravo John. I might have pursued mechanical engineering rather than fluid mechanics had you been instructing me (over 50 years ago!) in engineering school.

[@tonycook2347]

which car would you buy, if you had to, after it had done 380,000km? one of those 4cyl or the single turbo 4.5? (same life)

[@philg2468]

My 2019 Troopy is the most economical 4wd I've owned. Gets 10L/100k around town and 15L/100k towing a caravan. Skinny tyres, manual gearbox, Piezo Injectors and a taller 5th gear and keeping the weight down all help. You need to find a different example - hint: my previous 200series used 20% more fuel than my troopy.

[@alexmurray5774]

For all those in the beginnings of a complete mental breakdown at the demise of the V8 in the 200 series.., throw a bucket of cold water over yourself and have a think about the fact that a 15 year old 100 series with a 4.2 6 cylinder diesel with 350,000ks on the clock still sell for $40k

[@wozza77able]

Haha true that!

[@alansailing1387]

At 500,000kms, the Troopy will still have another 500,00kms of life left in the engine, the Prado will require a rebuild.

[@alexmurray5774]

@@alansailing1387 I agree, I wasn't comparing the troopy to the Prado, more making a comment in regards to the current somber mood in regards to the demise of the V8 in the next landcruiser (300), and that the 1hdt 4.2 turbo diesel (inline 6) that was in the 80/100 series were, and still are, regarded as one of the best diesel engines ever put into a vehicle, and it didn't have 8 cylinders.

[@MrLunithy]

Got a 98 75 Troopy "house" pop top 1HZ turbo 260.000 get about 1300 klms out of both tanks.

[@emilrozkoszny3935]

@@alansailing1387 my uncle just replaced his v8 in his 2014 troopy after 140k, blew a piston, my 2012 1kd prado still going strong at exactly the same kms, oh well

[@mr34]

It would have been good to show a Hp & torque map for each engine overlayed together. That way we are not looking just a peek numbers. Still a great video.

[@mystx42]

Being 79 owner your Spot on with original Toyota spec mapping. Strangely, when mapped to real world and 3” exhaust, you get twice the kw and torque return for no measurable difference in consumption and lower loss of energy via lower egt’s. Torque curve is all the way through rev range. Why Toyota torture us with this is a mystery yet I do not know ANY buyer of the v8 who has stayed with the original tune. I will say, on corrugated roads, at 80kmh, and even with wheel spin, I get as low as 12lt per 100. It’s fully 1/3 better than at 110k on highway when using it for what it’s built for..... funny that. Be very interested to see your figures if real Dyno tested vehicles (at wheel torque/power) after mods. Really enjoyed the video and thanks, keep up the awesome content!5 stars!!

[@johnjosephson9277]

I have heard that often more fuel is burnt to improve emissions output, stuff like lower burn temps for less NOx, I gather. I don't know any real facts, but it makes sense to me that the manufacturer has many points to consider in a tune, not just max power and max economy, which is generally the aim of aftermarket tunes. Just another tidbit of personal opinion and probable misinformation on the internet.

[@vicphillips632]

Excellent video, I have one comment - your 100km/hour was relatively common 150 years ago on British railways. No cliff required. Cheers Vic

[@_bodgie]

I can see two advantages of the V8 Troopy. It's possible a little smoother than the Prado, and the noise is way cooler.

[@stilley78]

I am a loyal owner of pre-historic diesel powered Landcruisers and have been for the past 10+ years and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. I found this video very interesting, but what I got out of it is that the V8 is dead when compared side by side with the 2.8 inline 4 because that it does everything so much more efficiently??? Obviously the V8 has the cool factor and that V8 sound, which the 4 cylinder can't beat. If the 4 cylinder is so much better than the V8 then why do I predominately see the V8 and older diesel inline 6 Landcruisers when travelling the outback? I seriously don't think that I can name a single occasion when I was 500km from the nearest town and didn't see a Landcruiser being used out there. Surely there has to be something going for the V8? What about longevity or reliability? PS, when I mentioned the pre-historic, dinosaur era Landcruiser diesel engines, I was referring directly to the non-turbo 2H and the turbocharged 12HT engines found in the 60 series. I currently own an automatic 12HT which puts out 82kw at the wheels (originally 100kw at the crank in stock form) and I'm happy with the way it performs. My 2H and 12HT powered 60 series Landcruisers have literally taken me to every place in Australia that I have ever been. Do you think that the 2.8 inline 4 could possibly survive without a rebuild for 1,000,000km like many of these older engines have?

[@jasmin-mae506]

Thanks for another Awesome Video John! Beer garden physics all the way on the drive home ♥ 💕

[@simon_k4551]

18:00 - Piston ring area - The rings are only in contact with the circumference of the cylinders, not the area of them. Sorry if this has been noted by others first!

[@garageblitztv3215]

Great Video again John... Truck (Prime Movers/Tractors) manufacturer’s (usually) go into great detail to provide the correct size engine for Transporters. This is obviously important to provide the best fuel economy for the load and conditions required. I have heard there are many arguments with drivers wanting the biggest, most powerful engines - Vs the person paying the fuel bills 😜

[@oldbloke100]

CAT hasn't made a over the road truck engine for about 10 years

[@garageblitztv3215]

bruce poole - yes that is correct... kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJvTZZKfpamfqs0

[@markh.6687]

But where is the point of diminishing returns; i.e. a gigantic engine simply guzzles fuel whether or not it's pulling a load. The key is sizing the engine to the max expected load it is expected to pull I would expect, no?

[@Knowbody42]

I think the main reason people go for the Troopys is reliability. I mean, there are plenty of more efficient 4WD's, that's just a fact. But if you're driving around in the middle of nowhere, breaking down is more than a bit inconvenient. The Troopys are reliable because they're simple. And they're also easy to get parts for.

[@alexfrankl7861]

So's a 4jj1 , rock solid , flat torque curve and economical

[@Knowbody42]

@@alexfrankl7861 4JJ1 is common rail. Common rail improves efficiency, but has lower tolerance for error.

[@danbywaters6123]

@@Knowbody42 all the 4.5L V8's are common-rail too. And the 'easy to get parts' theory is rubbish. If you need anything more than an air, fuel or oil filter (which you should carry your own spares of anyway) whilst out in the bush, you're gonna be waiting for parts to be flown in no matter what brand of vehicle you drive. There are no car dealersships and parts departments in Birdsville or Bamaga, for example!

[@Knowbody42]

@@danbywaters6123 Wherever you do find dealerships for 4WD's, you'll almost always find parts for the Troopie.

[@danbywaters6123]

@@Knowbody42 that's exactly my point. There are no dealerships out in the bush!!!!

[@stusmith1074]

Really enjoyed this video as I do all your videos, so much reaserch goes in to them and always informative and well presented 👍🏼👍🏼

[@TheSilmarillian]

The beer garden physics not all things pass the pub test :)

[@markrossi131]

Awesome explanation 👍Toyota should definitely have an upgraded version of the troop carrier and 79 utes with the 200 series driveline on offer, with 6 speed auto and 200kw/700nm . You can build it aftermarket but it’s probably around $30k plus, so why not offer it as say a $15k option, it’s just a few bolt on mods surely there is still room for profit and people can get what they want??

[@SkiRacingOz]

Issue is they couldn’t fit the 200 series engine in there

[@eyeswideopen7450]

makes not real sense both for toyota and for the user. Yes the 200 series driveline is more efficent. BUT mostly becaus it produces a lot more power with the same deplacement. The 200 series is a luxury vehicle were you want an impressive performance. The 70 series is work horse were you want enough power.

[@DOBERSTAFFIE]

Thanks John. Great video. Has toypta fixed the dpf issue and how does the 2.8 compare to the 4.5 on longevity?

[@johnbuckle3757]

I love your demystifying lectures on technical issues. More please.

[@zsoro]

Just going to say, this was actually very educational and entertaining for myself and was thinking very similar regards instead of Prado, was MU-X vs 76 series LandCruiser

[@SuperChevdog]

Hey John, mate I love your videos. The LandCruiser 200 - the vehicle of choice to beat the outback into submission. There is a lot of talk about transmission remaps and lock up kits for the 200 series. Can you do a beer garden discussion on why or why not you would consider doing the remap and lock up kit?

[@philbox4566]

Troopy owner since 1980. True story. I'm insulted that you assumed I'd be insulted. ;) Seriously though, great factual vid mate. Loved it.

[@craigeberhardt1164]

Just used my first tank of fuel; 50% urban/50% highway 12.5 litres per hundred. Only a little more than my previous car; a Prado.

[@c10196]

Plus the 78 makes you smile more.

[@coover65]

Great video, John. Americans watching this will be asking "what's a troopy?". The Prado might be good for towing the kids, caravan and wife (in that order), but a Troopy is a no nonsense "when I said where we're going, we don't need roads, I f*cking meant it". A scratch, a dent? No wuckers! Most are owned by government departments like police and ambulance, so the drivers don't care about fuel economy.

[@markh.6687]

I'm American, I had to look up what a Prado AND a Troopy were! :) But no worries, safe as houses, no need for panic, and Bob's your uncle and all that. Greet the Sheilas for me, willya?

[@coover65]

@@markh.6687 Yeah, no wuckas. Byoody mate!

[@dangerm3496]

I'd like to see the cylinder pressures comparison. And as John noted the v8 should make those power numbers of 200kw and 680nm and they do as soon as you tune them. But they can't sell them like that because that would make the 200 series at 100k to 135k look ridiculous. That's why the base models have either a smaller engine or 1 turbo less, or are detuned. Imagine paying 90k for a prado Kakadu model it couldn't pull the skin off a custard.

[@damodaraomalley3974]

This guy is more than a grumpy old man... Turns out he's basically a rocket scientist also 🤣

[@RobKenning]

Jeez....I actually understood all that. Well done John.

[@fergusmartin9505]

If you put them both on a dyno you will see that the factory specs are bull... the v8 will make a lot more power real world also put a 3 ton trailer behind both and see which one has better fuel economy. The prado is designed to take kids to school, 70 series is designed to be worked hard all day everyday in demanding conditions

[@jetmahler846]

Did you listen to anything he said, or were you watching troopie and VB ads from the 80's? Dont get me wrong, I love a troopie, but it is not efficient, or technologically advanced.

[@id10tcertified]

I wonder why big trucks (The Kenworth type) have doubled in engine size and better than halved the fuel use over the past 25 years. If Toyota brought the V8 up to 21st century specs no one would buy anything else... my C6 Corvette (LS2) gets 8.5/100 on the highway at 110kph without trying and that’s old tech just it only weighs 1400kg is fairly aerodynamic... but I’m biased, I like the V8 rumble.

[@kloschuessel773]

@@id10tcertified that’s basically perfect speed for that type of car though… And it is lighter and lower than these vehicles Your corvette takes 15l in the city

[@hectorshouse7348]

If the Sheila’s like ‘em, I’m in like Flynn

[@michaelchristian8158]

Glad you came out with this video right when im looking at a troopy for next purchase. Can we see more of this “engineering for dummies 101”

[@Rollin8.0]

Buy a 20 year old one (because it's the same as the current model) and swap the 200 series v8 into it... Or the prado 4cyl...

[@justadutchman5169]

I just love the Australian down to earth humor. Hahaha.

[@CatsMeowPaw]

I hired a Toyota Prado diesel and did solely highway driving. It was a 'free' upgrade. ADR81 says the car burns 7l/100km, but the dashboard stated 9.8 all the way. Sure enough when I refueled at Uluru at $2.10/l, the car had chewed 10l per 100km. You can imagine how delighted I was. Something is seriously wrong with the test.

[@mitchellgoldie7088]

Why does no one ever talk about power/torque curves? It’s not great looking at the maximum figures. A Troopy is designed for a lot of weight and longevity hence the v8. A Prado is an awful towing vehicle and they end up using the same fuel when towing but the v8 does it easier. The aerodynamics are so different, especially with the larger diameter tyres and near vertical windscreen. Torque means a lot when thinking about what these two vehicles are used for.

[@suggesttwo]

Depends if you want to pull a trailer. The V8 can outwork the turbo 4 under the table. Cold start enrichment: The 4 will warm up a quick. My 1993 Ford Crown Victoria used to burn about 25L/100km during cold start enrichment. 8-9L/100km hot and running city or hwy. Rated: 14.2L/100km city 8.6km/100 hwy

[@brucelawrence123]

One thing you didn't discus was the state of tune in both engines. The Prado is a soccer moms car with a higher state of tune than the V8. The troopy is designed to run around mine sites and so runs a lesser state of tune. Bring the tune up higher and the fuel economy is better and the power is greatly increased. I am talking here of a slight remap and not a silly tune. If the troopy had more power standard then they would be rolling them over regularly.

[@johnjosephson9277]

Rolling them even more regularly you mean :) troopys are classic rollover hazards. I still like mine.

[@GC_420]

Combustion 101 - No Edits. Respect.

[@EWOverland]

Like your explanation here, making so clear what we get

[@siraff4461]

Now can we have one going the other way where some engines are so undersized they end up using more fuel?

[@deanabrozki286]

Exactly. My 2017 hilux did exactly that. I have a 2020 model troopy and have absolutely no issues with the fuel consumption and that’s because I don’t drive it like I stole it

[@donaldsayers4967]

How long do you reckon a 2.8L 4 cylinder with that degree of stresses is going to last compared to a 4.5L V8. I never really liked the idea of a V8 however due to extortionate rego prices.

[@littleterror05]

Should last fine. Small engines have been around for years. At 150kw and 2.8L it’s hardly stressed. Ranger is 2L for the same output

[@donaldsayers4967]

Time will tell.

[@godfreypoon5148]

@@donaldsayers4967 Time already has told, for years. They still outlast the chassis.

[@donaldsayers4967]

@@godfreypoon5148 mate I have a friend who rebuilds diesels for a living and the Ford ranger engines he does several a week. They don't last and the forums are full of sob stories about late model common rail diesels dead. I unfortunately owned a 2lte and they were almost impossible to keep alive. So yes time will tell.

[@godfreypoon5148]

@@donaldsayers4967 Oh, trust Ford to screw it up. I meant in general. Small engines don't necessarily wear out fast.

[@suearmstrong8477]

G’day John thank you for your excellent series of informative videos. We are the owners of a 2010 V8 Troopy. We find it to be a most suitable vehicle for long touring. However any seed over about 90km ph results in a major drop in economy. A word loosely used. 90 gives us 14/100 110 gives us 16/100. Now we do have full length roof rack the rest is standard. We have 240,000 km up. Any suggestions that can help improve economy. Regards Sue and Paul.

[@RobSchofield]

That was an absolutely superb little lecture - very enjoyable and informative. Great! Tiny little nit-pick? The mass of the vehicle *does* change as the fuel gets consumed - but the percentage mass change is small due to the comparative weight of the vehicle vs. the weight of fuel carried, so it's reasonable to say "stays the same". This one, and your Mitsu PHEV massacre are now my favourites on your channel. More!

[@jarredtwigg5623]

Two vastly different purposes, prado are great at doing hard slog sometimes, but they have more failure points when used regularly, where as a troopy even the older weaker 1hz troopy will just lumber along fully laden and towing a caravan and give you far less trouble, a strange comparative analogy, is when i used to work in a glass factory, smaller meaker character working with a bunch of polynesians, i can lift the same stuff and do the same job, but at the end of the day i was buggered, where as they could smash down beers until 3 am and wake up and do the same job without any impedance , where i would need to pop some panadol and nurse my lumber aid support band

[@xpusostomos]

The V8 Troopy is an absolute rocket ship compared to the old 6 cylinder non-turbo diesel Troopy, which I think was about 70kw. You feel like Peter Brock in the V8, after pottering around in the 6.

[@Danger_mouse]

Is still very, very slow compared to any of the current 4 cylinder turbo diesels unless you take it to a tuner to unlock the power (and loose the engine and driveline warranty in the process) Great for mining and farms.

[@xpusostomos]

@@Danger_mouse well.. the old Hilux was doing 0-100 in 12.7 and the Troopy about 14.7, so if those 2 seconds mean "very very slow compared to".. i guess

[@tonydoggett7627]

You can still buy a new inline 6 cylinder troopy at Toyota in Papua New Guinea. 70 series are the only vehicles that don’t shake to pieces on the gravel roads.

[@xpusostomos]

@@tonydoggett7627 wow, really? Very surprising. Is it the turbo? Those are very sought after in Australia.

[@tonydoggett7627]

xpusostomos non turbo and no emissions equipment. I’ve seen them new at Lae Toyota myself & driven the gravel roads of PNG in a 70.

[@hayden6930]

Troopy owner here 🖐️ You covered a lot of good ground there but missed the single most important factor that effects thermal efficiency - that is, the combustion chamber surface area to cylinder displacement volume ratio. That directly affects how much heat energy is lost through the walls of the combustion chamber as a proportion of its capacity. This is why 4 cylinder motors always return better consumption than a similar capacity motors with more cylinders, it's why bigger engines are more efficient than smaller engines of otherwise similar design. It's how the ship engines get their 67% thermal efficiency. Although friction is higher, I would disagree it's the main factor in engine efficiency. Toyota did with the 70 series what they've always done when they want reliability, they took a large engine and detuned it so that it's effectively allways in limp mode, they use a drastically larger safety margin on stressed components than they use on the smaller engines, this is why they last so long. It is evidenced by the fact that the torque curve on the 1VDFTE engine is pretty much dead flat, when we all know that a graph of the pumping efficiency (the key defining measure that limits engine output) over engine speed would definitely not be flat. I believe comparing peak power output is not a useful measure of comparison when you have anything other than an infinitely variable transmission to direct that peak power to the ground, the average power over the used rev range when mowing through gears would be a more direct comparison, although a bit complicated to measure.

[@frogzie]

You make an interesting point but I have doubts about the 67% thermal efficiency figure. I'm far from being a thermodynamics - or engine - specialist but I'm only aware of 55% as the best efficiency ever achieved by a diesel engine.

[@hayden6930]

@@frogzie you're probably right, I vaguely recall the efficiency of the biggest ship every built being quoted at 67%. Could well be wrong! My point is more that the thermal efficiency goes up drastically as the combustion chamber surface area to capacity ratio goes down.

[@frogzie]

It makes sense. Friction area/capacity ratio: (2*pi*r*h)/(*pi*r^2*h) = 2/r

[@royblackburn1163]

@@frogzie I'm sure I've seen that somewhere else, is it no 84 beef in black bean sauce ?

[@frogzie]

🙂

[@tempestv8]

Toyota Japan must have heard you, John! Rumours are rife that the 70 Series will be available with the 1GD 2.8 4 cylinder motor and 6 speed auto. At least for the 76 Series wagon in Japan anyway. The 1VD motor in the 70 Series is deliberately detuned simply to be matched to the maximum torque handling characteristics of the 5 speed manual gearbox. Just putting a tune on the V8 in the 70 Series will result in the factory clutch slipping soon after.

[@michaelbamber4887]

Nice spanner there John. I'm from said place, Leyland. We still build trucks, just they are lego dafs and the small kenworth that are sent your way!

[@Adam-ox6zy]

Stayed at a dudes place at Mataranka that had a prado that was under 10 years old that was so flogged after a couple years of water crossings that he now just runs it around the paddock till it dies and by the look of it it didn’t look like it would be too much longer.

[@BigFellaGames]

Question about reliability. What will last longer? A small, modern, high boost motor or a big motor with 50% more parts?

[@atfsgeoff]

Neither the Troopy nor the 200 series have thermodynamic or fuel efficiency as a priority in their respective designs, so it makes sense that the Prado would be more fuel efficient as the smaller, smarter, more real-world-relevant Land Cruiser offering.

[@markfrombriz]

But will the increasingly highly strung prado motor do 1 million km + ?

[@texlad04]

Sure. With a turbo rebuild and two gasket jobs. Just like the 4.6L gasoline V8 in my 2011 Lexus has already had a gasket job before 100K miles versus the flawless running lower revving 4.3L in my 2004 which along with the 6 speed auto is commonly considered here in the States to be the best powertrain Toyota ever put in a vehicle sold in our market. At least Toyota uses a combo fuel injection system so you don’t need to do a carbon cleanout every 100K miles. That said, Toyota gets a lot of flack even here in the land of cheap fuel for its gas-guzzling powertrains. Still doesn’t mean I would trade my Toyota products for a stealership loving Land Rover or BMW.

[@mungbean84]

Probably not, but for the same reason the v8 troopy won't either, and it's nothing to do with being "highly strung" as you so put it, but more the fact that the fuel systems under high pressure will literally erode themselves away before you ever get anywhere near that point. The v8 will last marginally longer though because while it may use 35% more fuel it is spread over 100% more fuel system (2 sets of 4 cylinder rails instead of 1). The days of 1 million km diesel engines ended with the introduction of common rail injection. I'm sure JC will comment on this however it is most unlikely that the v8 was designed by the same company to have a higher service life than the i4, and it is a design decision not just a matter whether the squeeze more power out of one than another. The auto maker sets the brief for the engineering team that they need x power and it has to last y period of time / distance travelled / work done.

[@fvlok]

I have the V8 and bet they will last the same amount of time. Modern engines are all the same. The 1HZ is a million km motor but it was built basic and it’s not common rail with electronic shit. But to the point. One wont last longer than the other with same maintenance.

[@mikewatt1376]

i suppose well have 4 cyl turbo kenworths ..good for 1 changeover

[@cruiser6260]

@@mungbean84 replace the fuel rail then. The old Volvo 4cyl was one of the longest running in km engines ever, so I wouldn't assume just because an engine has 4 cyl it can't do high km. Trucks Get to 1m km regularly

[@adamedgar5765]

Hi John. wonderful video and very enlightening. My theory is that the longevity of the 4.5L V8 Troopy is going to greatly exceed that of the 4Cyl Prado Engine because a big engine is working very lightly to achieve the tasks asked of it compared with the small 4cy Prado engine. 1. Would this be a fair claim? 2. What is the difference in turbo charger boost of 4.5 V8 vs 2.8 4cyl?

[@Andre_XX]

Jeez, I thought you were going to sh.t on my old '93 non-turbo, non-electronic-sh.t, 1HZ Troopie. Still going strong today. 11 to 12 litres per 100 km on the highway.

[@georgepppp533]

or my 3 litre non turbo hi lux sure it uses a couple of litres more per 100 but no common rail pressures, no turbo no oil use after 370k . yeap I'll keep plugging along with it.

[@victaylor-amateurphotograp9171]

I've owned and operated at least 5 cruisers with 1HZ engines and never got anywhere near those figures. The 80 Series will go up 20/100 if pushed/loaded and best at around 16 if we are real careful. My 70 ute got 14.7 on a trip once and I think I got 15 in my troopy a few times.

[@Andre_XX]

@@victaylor-amateurphotograp9171 Might depend on how you drive. I got 11.5 on a 24,500 km trip round Aus.

[@RJ-vb7gh]

Here in the US the value of reliability often outweighs the cost of fuel. Toyotas are more commonly known to last hundreds of thousands of miles without catastrophic failure or excessively expensive repairs whereas many other cars and light trucks are pretty much through at a bit over 100,000 miles and sometimes even less. I'm sure that in some parts of the world fuel prices would more heavily influence the purchase decision. But overall, this has been an interesting beer garden math exercise.

[@jasonfields2793]

Both are Toyotas

[@Robert-cu9bm]

@@jasonfields2793 They might not get the prado there, or it's under a different name.

[@teenaramsay2469]

@@Robert-cu9bm No diesel models..all petrol. US enthusiasts who know what they are missing out on want a good diesel...the power brokers won't allow them to be imported...would destroy the US domestic pick-up market sales.

[@Robert-cu9bm]

@@teenaramsay2469 America has some of the strictest emission laws. The diesels don't pass it. The only reason the truck can get away with it, is because they're body on frame and classed as commercial so don't have the same emissions laws.

[@RJ-vb7gh]

@@jasonfields2793 Yup, no diesels here and Toyota uses different names in the US. Still, my point being that here many people might consider a vehicle with a track record of reliability over something with better fuel economy.

[@harryworth8527]

I've only just watched this! Nice physics lesson! I own a 79 series and I think this is why so many owners seek greater performance out of that lazy V8. Having had an ECU remap along with a few other modifications, including a heavy duty clutch, it is now approaching the 200 series performance, with still only one turbo. Fuel consumption is similar, but the real benefit has been in its towing ability so long as your not trying to break the sound barrier! Why the 79 series you ask? well after owning a considerably more technically superior vehicle and then, suffering from tech failures in a vehicle only 1 year old, I lost all confidence in that vehicle and decided to go for a very utilitarian vehicle, one that's not bristling with silicon chips! Being stranded when the power management computer goes insane (#HAL 2000) and flattens the battery by turning on and off various functions overnight when the vehicle is turned off doesn't bolster confidence and just leaves you stranded in space!

[@good_king_guitarman1334]

Whitworth, now that takes me back to my apprentice days.

[@RoyFJ65]

One is a V8 and in terms of longevity far better than the four cylinder from the Prado/Fortuner platform.

[@jasonfields2793]

LOL 1vd and longevity are not normally words uttered together

[@RoyFJ65]

if rightly maintained they last long and the best in its class, better than the Fortuner engine anyday be it performance for the right application or life.

[@flyingrc2041]

Love the physics and engineering pros on KZbin. You are so wrong it's not even funny!

[@No0ne31]

My mate just clocked 900,000 kms in a troopy... yet to see a prado doing that

[@AquaMarine1000]

My old mate purchased the very first diesel hardtop troopy that was sold in Australia the HJ45. These first troopys diesels had the little Toyota straight six H engine with 3,600cc producing about 60Kw. He drove all over Australia in this vehicle and clocked up 1,000,000klm at about 26 miles to the gallon and after he passed on his family sold the vehicle in near perfect running condition. Cheers

[@Scourgewor]

The attraction of the Troop carrier is that you can fit a bed in the back and also sit upright inside without your head hitting the roof. Try doing that in any other 4WD. They are the ultimate practical tourer for 1 or 2 people. The 76 series vs the Prado would be a more worthy question.

[@muzzarobbo]

Ive done that in my gq, false floor with 140ah battery, 40l water bladder, tools, recovery gear, and other stuff all under the false floor. All i need to do is take my chair out and unroll mattress and camp setup is sorted. im 6'3 and can comfortably kneel or sit upright. If i have my partner with me i simply undo my fridge and custom camping box/table via 4 carabiners and its a double bed. Rx and Ti GQs are luxury compared with a troopy when driving, superior offroad, and i got mine grandpa spec for 5k, 0 rust well maintained.

[@tareskisloki8579]

I don't know what the current Prado's are like, but in my old 90 series, you could fold the 2nd and 3rd rows flat, put a double air mattress on top of them and still sit up without hitting your head.

[@fredgassit4450]

Just being picky I know, but on your comparo page with the motors, (approx 20:41 mins) you had kw twice instead of NM on the second value for the Troopy and Prado.

[@sydneyraj]

Yes, we are paying attention

[@fwqkaw]

kW. Don't forget Mr. Watt. Newton was mega, I quite agree.

[@macbuff81]

Also, heat energy comes out of a combustion engine. Actually, most of the energy produced is in the form of heat. Only between 30 to 40 percent is in the form of motion which is then used to move the wheels via the transmission. Electric motors are quite the opposite which is why it only makes sense to use them. Given the rather rapid advances in battery tech the future certainly looks bright (fast and fun too). As for photosynthesis: yes, it is rather inefficient, but evolution focuses on survival and if something works, nature tends to keep it around. Let's not forget that the fossil fuels we have been burning for decades mostly stem from ancient plants (decomposed under a great deal of pressure for eons) that at one point in history sucked the carbon out of the air that is now powering your engine. So yea, photosynthesis is not efficient, but without it your efficient modern combustion engine would be going nowhere.

[@Kiwi_Dave]

Great analysis, end of day V8 sounds better than any I4 couldn't care less about fuel economy, higher revs in top gear will be fitting 33's anyway, prefer a manual and none of the fluff that comes with more modern 4x4s

[@rfmonkey4942]

agreed v8 does sound great, but that's all they do everything else is shit i have one, and will not buy another...

[@lucashart8807]

Good work. But an ecu tune can totally rework the numbers. I'm an off roader, in a live axle cruiser. Still would have a toupie over a 150 prado any day. If only they put the 200 series engine in the 70 series body. Might be a tight fit though

[@dustyfarmer]

Mate, They are the same engine 1VD-FTV, just an extra turbo on the 200. The 200 series auto box does fit in the 70 series trans tunnel behind the single turbo 1VD-FTV if your a millenial or girly man that can't drive a manual and got $30K for the conversion.

[@simonrook5743]

Not sure I’d use bore area for friction? Piston ring circumference (length of contact area) multiplied by travel (stroke) seems more logical and still ignores all the crank bearings.

[@cruiser6260]

That's exactly the same thing