Toyota Mirai final review and hydrogen discussion

[@channel4ferrets]

Not only you have losses at electrolysis and the fuel cell. Imagine how much energy it costs to pressurize to 800 bar and meanwhile cool the hydrogen to -40 degrees Celsius. Hydrogen is highly inefficient...

[@johndoe1909]

last time i actially did a calculation my best case scenario was roughly 2kwh per 10 kwh put in. that included electrolysis, chilling compression, storage, conversion to electricity in car... so yah, compared to over 90% system efficiency in going directly to battery, and vattery to motor...

[@reiniernn9071]

@@johndoe1909 Nice calculation. I came up to max 25% . But I did not calculate transporting efficiency of H2 (when not produced at the place of the fuel station.) My son, phd and working in H2 research tells me that H2 woiuld be very usefull in the steel producing industry replacing cokes there....No need for compression which increases the efficiency and no need for using fuelcells.

[@johndoe1909]

@@reiniernn9071 yes, steel reduction would be one atea of actual use...

[@arveduilastking546]

@@reiniernn9071 They are starting a project in Sweden with H2 in steel production

[@ronbally2312]

hmmm. A battery also involves twice a chemical energy conversion and is much heavier. Fuel cells scale good, so might be a solution for semi’s/trucks, in which case here would become more of a distribution network.

[@koomaj]

It is surreal to think Toyota has not figured out what Björn just talked about. It is such an obvious thing.

[@Lewis_Standing]

It's Japanese energy policy. They don't have coal, oil or gas enough for their economy. They don't like nuclear post fukashima. They are surrounded by deep water trenches they can't install offshore wind. They have convinced themselves they can import hydrogen to satisfy their needs. Their culture means they can't tell the boss he's wrong, and so they are sleepwalking into a disaster.

[@brembodream]

Toyota was never serious about hydrogen cars. The ugly design of Miriai mrk1 made sure that it wouldn`t be a market success in any ways. Toyotas only goal was to bring uncertancy into the BEV industri, and they succeed very well on that. Allmost all Legacy automakers put their BEV projects to rest. Then Tesla model S and Nissan Leaf came to market about the same time with a proper consumer product. The The Tesla Roadster was a selling prototype, and I don`t count that in other than a finance incom for developement for the model S. Model S did a huge dent in premium segment, and her in Norway it became a great success, much because of Bjørn Nylands videos, that made everybody confident that the Model S would work as a proper Family long trip car. So, hydrogen for cars has never really bin serious, allso because hydrogen had the initiativ to define the future the whole decade from 2000 to 2010. More than enough time to put alternatives behind if Toyota / Mercedes and others was serious about hydrogen, other than delay BEV introduction.

[@xmtxx]

@@brembodream This, or, they are soo much hell bent on ICE engine, thath they can't think otherwise, and see H2 as the logical next step. It shows how hard they fought BEV, since the begining.

[@waynerussell6401]

“Elon Musk is right - it’s better to charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” Yoshikazu Tanaka, chief engineer Toyota’s Mirai 2017.

[@swedenevguru8483]

​@@brembodream Offcourse they are serious about hydrogen cars. They even build a hydrogen city in Japan and the government have invested alot in hydrogen manufacturing and sell the fuel. Last i heard they will invest in Ice engines that will go on hydrogen and that engine are 20-30% fuel effective against 45-60% on this fuel cell engine. So think double the cost to drive the ice engine with hydrogen.

[@rhydlew]

When Bjorn talks through the losses, he forgot to mention that after electrolysis, you then have a load of trucks transporting the Hydrogen around the country. You have to include the inefficiency of that. Also it isn't being delivered to your house, you have to get in your car and drive to a retailing station, so a little more inefficiency in carbon, cost and time there too.

[@rhydlew]

He mentions all those trucks later when talking about how h2 infrastructure doesn't scale (80 cars per station)

[@Tupcek]

theoretically, you could make at the station

[@rhydlew]

@Richard Labaš I suppose so. Why have just have a €2 million H2 vapouriser and compressor station when you can have an electrolysis facility that costs double that again :) Might need staffing too. Or you could just use the electricity that feeds all of that to charge up EVs directly

[@st-ex8506]

@@rhydlew Good point... although I am not sure I properly understood which way you were going?! I apologize for that. Decentralised electrolysis is a plain bad idea. 1) A larger industrial-size electrolyzer is significantly more efficient than a smaller model, installed in a fueling station. 2) There are significant economies of scale in this industry like in all process industries. A plant manufacturing, say 50'000 tons of hydrogen a year will do so cheaper than one 10 times smaller... not to mention 100 or 1000 times smaller. 3) The cost of power is extremely important in the total cost of hydrogen. You ideally want the electrolyzer plant to be co-located with a large renewable power generation capacity (a solar or wind farm, both combined being best), to avoid power transportation costs and losses, which can easily triple the cost of the power used for hydrolysis. 4) Hydrogen is dangerous to handle. Correction: it is bloody dangerous! Installing the required safety measures, and having the properly trained personnel, is not without costs, but routinely handled at a large manufacturing plant... not so in a decentralize little place somewhere in the country. I will remind readers that (at least) two hydrogen-fueling stations have already blown-up, one in Norway, one in CA... thankfully to no loss of life (as far as I know), but injuries to several people and great loss of property, and that out of a total of bloody few some stations!

[@rhydlew]

@@st-ex8506 you're absolutely right. Best to just the clean energy for 1 h2 car to charge 3 EVs instead ;)

[@satay8167]

Awesome review Bjorn. It’s no brainer with hydrogen for Japanese car maker as they are ganging up to develop more hydrogen car but it’s fighting a loosing battle. They should swallow their pride and pick up the pieces on ev or face irrelevance.

[@TerminatorMod101]

They can't, they have to fight this losing battle knowing it is 100% losing.

[@raymondleury8334]

@@TerminatorMod101 A few decades ago, the Japanese government decided hydrogen was the solution and nobody seems to be able to realize that the original decision was foolish. The Japanese car industry risks being destroyed by this very costly mistake.

[@londonwestman1]

@@TerminatorMod101 Agreed. I think Toyota are stuck with hydrogen now until it dies a natural death. If they backed out of selling hydrogen cars now they might face a class action in the US for knowingly selling an unfit product. The potential consequence of that might be that they'd have to buy them all back.. Plus costs. (They've sold 21,500 Mirai's worldwide, about 11,500 of them in the US. The US buyback might cost $1 billion, but the reputational cost could be five times that.)

[@swedenevguru8483]

@@londonwestman1 There are 48 Fcev in all Sweden and only companys that bought them. 5 Fcev was sold last year but 1 of this was import so i guess that doesnt count ? so 4 new sold then atleast.

[@timogronroos4642]

Also needs to be understood, that in Japan, it's not just the car manufactures behind this, but local government which decided to support hydrogen infrastructure. They end up being the only country doing so and is destined to fail.

[@thosoz3431]

Hydrogen has ONE purpose. To keep you going to the gas station FOREVER.

[@FFVoyager]

Yep. Keeps the fossil fuel industry in business.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

​@@FFVoyager Uranium isn't the fossil-fuel industry.

[@dragospahontu]

​@@FFVoyager regardless the fossil industry will not die

[@FFVoyager]

@@dragospahontu it will change. As demand for fossil fuels change finding an open filling station will become as difficult as finding coal to heat your house today.

[@vtakmaz]

@@FFVoyager :D Tell me how is EV car battery production AND how much CO2 unleash while production, the process dont pollute the air ? less then fossils ?

[@EPicurux]

according to a WTW analysis made by transportenvironmentorg in 2017, overall efficiency is: BEVs: 73% FCVs: 22% ICEs: 13% assuming both BEV and FCV energy is from 100% renewables

[@flo_h_96]

At the moment BEVs overall efficiency is at 80%

[@st-ex8506]

@@flo_h_96 Correct... from the plug to the wheel! But you have to account for the losses upstream of the recharging plug... and you end up around 75% total efficiency, from the generation device, wherever it is, to the wheel. But that is still excellent efficiency... unbeatable by any other technology!

[@petrhajduk9955]

Also the ICEs use electrofuels in this case, which is probably better thing to do if you have abundant electricity and lack of consumption.

[@FGGiskard]

How can one take the manufacturing of the battery / fuel cell / ice engine into that?

[@EPicurux]

@@FGGiskard that's the tricky part. But pretty sure the energy to make a battery is not that much different of that necessary to make FC and tanks. For ICE, Volvo made a life cycle assessment of its XC40 gas vs electric. It will take 50k km driving to offset battery manufacturing CO2 emissions, with 100% renewable electricity for driving. However, pretty sure this, and all similar studies, use WTW petrol CO2 emission values that are the results of decades of lobbying by the oil industry. Likely representing some ideal, unrealistic situation.

[@martingorbush2944]

I can confidently say than In Norway hydrogen for cars is not needed. That country has so many water reservoirs that they can "store" excessive energy production from wind and solar there.

[@kardy12]

Norway is connected to the European grid and sells much of its excess production via exports - in only a small share of its hydro facilities have pumping capacity to shift water back to reservoirs using excess power production E.g. from wind. In fact, last year due to a drought depleting it’s water reservoirs to a 20 year low, the Norwegian government started plans to put in laws to impose export controls.

[@kompost1]

@@kardy12 Agreed. Pumping stations CAN increase the amount of storage SOMEWHAT, especially if the prices are high, da owmners are incentivised for building out pumps. However, last years energy shortage really showed everyone that Norway has little capacity for energy generation, when everyone else needs that energy: prices go up, stored hydropower is consumed, and if what you have around the corner is a dry spell, Norway is not necessarily suited for dealing with everyone elses problem.

[@kardy12]

@@kompost1 I think it’s more of a question of the European grid being integrated with the price incentives designed to do the job of balancing grids when there are production shortfalls in some places. So when production falls short elsewhere, prices rise and incentivise running down of reservoirs in Norway. At the same time, if production falls short in Norway, it can plug that gap with production from elsewhere (as does also happen on occasion). So it’s less of a “dealing with other people’s problems” issue, and more the impact of having a regionally integrated grid. It makes things more robust for everyone; but at times it can have undesirable effects. Now, limiting exports can reduce those impacts, but if you make it clear you only look at your own interests it may also reduce the willingness of other countries helping to fill gaps on the occasions when domestic production in Norway falls short. A more fragmented grid is a less robust grid.

[@dewetbotma5875]

Awesome Review. As a Product Expert for Mercedes I like your channel for really good real world testing information. I totally agree with the Hydrogen concept. Just the convenience factor for BEV out ways the Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles due to home charging and you don't really have to go to a fuel station. OEM's have been developing it for some time yet without proper breakthrough in efficiency it seems. Here in South Africa they are gonna start building new renewable energy charging stations and it's gonna be completely off grid. First one up and running end of this year.

[@StaticApnea]

South Africa better hurry up. South Africa is one of the worst coal burners in the world

[@tatradak9781]

You should start your own channel, this is very interesting, what storage system will you use.. Got loads of questions!!

[@economistfromhell4877]

@@BenjaminD84 Solar panels

[@economistfromhell4877]

@@jonathanlyng3442 Solar Panels

[@colla555]

It's crazy expensive in Norway. Hydrogen was 9,6€ per kilo in Germany 1-2 years ago. Now, they apparently even increased it to 13,85€ as well.

[@174wolf]

That's because it's subsidized with tax money.

[@MrAdopado]

@@174wolf So the hydrogen would be even more expensive without subsidy.

[@ralphpetry1745]

Ultimately, this is the death blow to hydrogen. It is becoming easier and cheaper for the average person/business to make and store their own electricity to use. Why would you sell your soul to a third party so they can gouge you at will because you have to go them for hydrogen.

[@st-ex8506]

The real, unsubsidized price for "green" hydrogen at the pump is around €16/kg, or more! If it is cheaper, it is either not "green" hydrogen but "black" (some say "grey", but after years of experience in that industry, I don't), or it is subsidized! And if it is not genuine "green" hydrogen you would put in your Mirai, then you may as well throw it away, and buy yourself a good old gas-guzzler, because, in such a case, a HFCV is polluting MORE than a ICE vehicle!

[@gorovitz]

@@st-ex8506 what about EVs? Do they also pollute more if not using green electricity?

[@tonystanley5337]

One of the big loses in the fuel cell is the air compressor. Its basically an electric turbo charger rated around 20kW. Just like air resistance, the power input is exponentially related to air speed or air mass. So its like a double exponential relationship for road speed.

[@christophernoble6810]

Excellent video Bjørn which dispels a lot of myths surrounding Hydrogen. Most people are unaware of the problems you are likely to encounter running a Hydrogen Fuelcell car, not least of which is the insane cost of the gas!

[@tapsa0]

Other industries (E.g. steel manufacturing) are going to suck all available green hydrogen because they try to go green too and it creates more value there.

[@oatlegOnYt]

In case of cars you are totally right. But in case of stationary storage things are more complex. Although batteries always beats in round trip efficiency as you pointed to hydrogen, efficiency is not the only parameter here. Let's see. A battery has a cost per kwh storage unit. Let's say 80 $ per kwh. You can cycle that kwh through a number of cycles, like 2000 cycles for example, before needs a battery replacement. Then, the cost per kwh cycled is 80/2000 or around 4 cents per kwh. BUT... while the calcules are right, there is a problem. 2000 cycles is a long amortization period. If you charge and discharge the battery every day, that's like 5 years and a half. In a more realistic scenario, batteries are not full discharged and the time goes to around a decade. Well... A decade is still a reasonable amortization period. So batteries are perfectly fine for daily storage. But... let's say you want to storage from winter to summer. That's just one cycle per year! Even in a two decades amortization limit that's 4$ per kwh cycled! Or 4000 $ per Mwh. A crazy high number. Non-competitive. That's the reason because you need a storage that decouples storage and power. Hydrogen storage is drive by the storage tanks, while power is through the fuel cell or turbine. There is no problem in decouple, and storage is CHEAP (basically, big tanks) Storage has some problems with escapes but scales well with sizes. Big storages has less percentage loses. While the round trip is way worse than batteries, fixed costs for tank storage is a lot better for small cycles per year, like season or reserved backup power. There is other solutions that compete with hydrogen here, like other e-fuels (ammonia, for example), or CO2 battery, liquid air battery, flow batteries... But in this case, hydrogen vs batteries, hydrogen is the winner. So... it depends on the case. Batteries are not ALWAYS the best solution.

[@kahlaaja]

Thanks for talking through this topic! Electric cars seem just so simple solution compared to H2, with way less points of efficiency losses and supply chain parts about fuel that need someone´s work. Also the H2 production not really being zero emission, and possibly even a waste of electricity compared to just charging an EV directly was a brilliant point! :)

[@MrAdopado]

Not "possibly even a waste of electricity" ... it is "definitely a waste of electricity"! You throw away energy to even make hydrogen with electrolysis compared to using electricity direct in a BEV.

[@nmtb1972]

In the Netherlands, some hydrogen fueling stations have started operating without government grants. The price is over €25/kg.

[@bjornnyland]

Did you mean €2.5/kg?

[@gamejay7104]

​@@bjornnyland yes around 25/kg

[@brushlessmotoring]

here, have 1kg of hydrogen! Thanks for the reviews Bjorn - super useful info, especially the 1.4kg/100km at speed - explains the disparity between Toyota's claims and California users experiences. (At highway speeds = 225 mile range, not 400)

[@bjornnyland]

Thank you for your support :)

[@IhsanDogan]

Great review. I wasn't aware, that the hydrogen station have limitations. I have read the manual of the Hyundai Nexo a while ago. The cas has to go every 20'000 km for maintance. If used in harsh condition, it has to every 10'000 km for maintance, where they also verify if the hydrogen system is not leaking. What are harsh driving conditions? - Driving in a salty environment (sea costs, salt used in winter) - Driving with higher speed (like the German Autobahn) - Driving often over mountain passes - Driving often in stop and go traffic The technology is basically unusable in Switzerland.

[@markusfischer598]

I drove two cars wit CNG compressed natural gas and the tanks and injection system had to be inspected every three years because of high pressure of around 240 bar. How is it with 700 bar at the hydrogen car?

[@brushlessmotoring]

That's wild. "Hydrogen Car should be driven carefully at all times". Eventually one of these will get in a big accident, I hope it all holds up the way they say it will, but saying those tanks can take a bullet is one thing, can they take a cement truck is a very different question. Worth noting, crash tests are often done without any fuel in the vehicle or the engine running (gasoline) by using pulleys, they only test the survivability of the chassis, not what happens to a running engine when you hit it with a bridge support. EV's are tested with their battery packs attached - not sure if they are also not running, or what the state of charge is - but this difference always bothered me. The argument for crash testing without fuel is that the test facilities are too valuable to burn to the ground every time they smash a running gasoline engine into a concrete pillar, but then .... what are they really testing, if survivability is the key, then how the car catches fire, how the fire spreads, how long you have to get out ... these all seem like things that should be part of a safety test ... maybe I just don't know enough .... I also wonder if the slow motion airbag footage that makes us feel better about hurtling around at speed would be somewhat undermined by a test dummy family of 4 melting in the ensuing fire .... I would assume hydrogen cars are tested depressurized for similar reasons - to protect the testing facility. I've seen gas cars in fairly minor collisions catch fire, especially if they roll over - being upside down and on seems to go badly. I've seen a couple of EV smashes (I live in Vancouver - lots of EVs - collision is inevitable) one was pretty bad, but no fire from either, everyone was okay in all incidents, including the gasoline fires. I hope I never see a hydrogen smash, but there are a few of them around town, with 3 filling stations. Hydrogen is CA$13 per kg in Vancouver last time I checked, at that price it must either be fossil fuelled (HTEC is, shall we say, ambiguous, about where the hydrogen comes from) or heavily subsidized if truly green. Retail electricity is $0.12 per kWh + 5% tax which would make 54kWh for 1kg of H2 cost $6.48, so it's plausible it's grid made, and our grid is fairly clean - locally hydro with some imports from coal and gas powered neighbours - BC Hydro is also ambiguous with the CO2e per kWh, and we have no realtime graphs of the mix like Australia and UK does.

[@docal2]

Well, at least you can just ride a train...

[@bilgyno1]

Also, the logistics of H2 is a painfully expensive to get it to all the stations at scale. Then the pumps themselves need to build up pressure after someone fills their car, losing part of the speed advantage if it's busy. H2 makes sense for some industrial applications. Not for cars.

[@terjeoseberg990]

It’s doomed because where do I get it? I already hate going to gas stations, why would I want to go to a hydrogen station? I can charge at home while I sleep, so I really don’t care how long charging takes.

[@thorbjrnhellehaven5766]

20:10 yes please, I would love a short interview with them. About experience with electric and hydrogen. The only time Hydrogen can make some sense, is if it is impossible to adapt to charging. If one truly need to refuel in 5 minutes, then maybe yes, but then one have to make sure the filling station is up for the task to recompress fast enough after every session too. Then there is the extra energy cost to make hydrogen, compared to using electricity directly, making them more expensive to run by default, providing it is possible to adapt to charging. I don't understand the argument about hydrogen for large vehicle, because they need even more energy to make the hydrogen they need.

[@PenkoAngelov]

If you think about it, the ONLY way to fill a FCEV is to go to a filling station. You have NO other option to fill up. No one can help you if you get stranded... you have to be towed. With an EV you can ask another EV with bidirectional charging to give you some juice. Or you can ask a friend with batteries to come help you... Or even many of the companies who offer such services. Even with a petrol vehicle you can carry a bucket of fuel... The hydrogen is created from steam reforming of coal, gas or crude oil (96% of the world H2 production) which generates more pollution than burning the fossils. It is then compressed or liquefied (losses) and is transported (losses) to a fueling station. There it is stored in liquid form at −252.8°C (losses) and needs to be turned back to steam (losses)... but for volumetric reasons in needs to be compressed to 700 bars of pressure in the vehicle (losses). The fuel cell has AT MOST 50% efficiency (huge losses) and needs frequent replacement of expensive filters and components.The fuel cell looses power over time and needs to be replaced every few years. The vehicle needs specialized and regular maintenance for safety reasons (pressure vessels). It is only promoted and advertised because the petrol industry does not want to give up it's business model - to keep you tied to a filling station and suck your pockets empty.

[@Poetjanstie]

Yes you’ve nailed it, Bjørn. I left a long comment on the Toyota promotion video, but there are just too many fossil fuel trolls and/or people, who are ignorant of even the most basic maths, let alone physics 🤔

[@narvuntien]

Another annoying thing about hydrogen is its packaging inside the car, the Mirai has a tiny boot because of the tanks, I think the Nexon has a better packaging but nothing is as convieent as the EV skateboard. If there will be any Hydrogen cars they will be Hydrogen race cars, where 15 mins of charging is too long but for people in their every day use EVs are just so much easier.

[@DanielZajic]

Hydrogen race cars, what could go wrong?

[@AORD72]

Swapping a battery with a EV for racing could be done faster than refilling with hydrogen.

[@kain0m]

​@@DanielZajicmuch less than with battery electric race cars.

[@BT_watch87]

I work for an international public transport company. We use electric buses over hydrogen because electric buses are cheaper for both infrastructure and fuel (energy). Hydrogen is difficult to buy / make, and therefore expensive. Range is an issue with electric buses, but we have logistical tricks around this.

[@Banks231]

once the routing is relatively fix and large parking place can be used for charging like buses, that's perfect for EVs...

[@testingtime7780]

You know whats funny about hydrogen? Most guys I talk to which are kind of against EV or have no idea about them (only from newspaper lol), think that hydrogen will be the next big thing that's what they waiting for. Every time I tell them that a hydrogen car is the same like EV but with hydrogentank and also with fuelcell they look like I'm out of space :D

[@Beamer_i4_M50]

Also here in my friends circle people still talk about E Fuels and hydrogen. I don’t know why they are all so afraid of electric cars. Humans are afraid of changes obviously.

[@LoneWolf-wp9dn]

hydrogen can be used in a bev and an ice vehicle... they probably thinking youre lying to them somehow

[@testingtime7780]

@@Beamer_i4_M50 Humans are afraid of changes and of things they have no clue about.

[@testingtime7780]

@@LoneWolf-wp9dn Yes I think your right, I think general understanding is, that it works like fossil car. You can fuel it and there is engine which just "burn" the fuel thats it :D

[@StuartJ]

This is the narrative the fossil fuel companies have been pushing. And it's working.

[@philiptaylor7902]

Bjorn nailed it when he said that hydrogen had its chance ten years ago, but fluffed it.

[@aidanapword]

A complex solution like hydrogen will never make sense except to the producer of energy who is trying to maintain a captive market. Simpler solutions exist, lower maintenence and cheaper. And better for the environment already too (but that is just a bonus). Some people (like bjorn) have been saying this for years. Hydrogen is the next "clean diesel" balderdash.

[@adus123]

The biggest downside is you can't refill a hydrogen car at home. I know someone with an EV and he can recharge his car for something like £6 overnight. He doesn't have a home battery or solar panels so if he did He could bring that price even more down.

[@beyondfossil]

It is _technically_ possible to generate H₂ from the home tap water and electrolysis! But energy intensive to do so.

[@adus123]

@@beyondfossil For that very reason it's flawed from the get-go. Electric is easy to get hydrogen is not easy.

[@rasch19785]

Yes,I remember a tank of hydrogen being 55 euros , so around 10 € per kg 4 years ago (2018-2019), so it was like refueling a petrol car at that time

[@EPicurux]

said it before FCVs are always 2-3 steps behind BEVs The only application where it would still make sense is air transportation. But, as of now, not in 10-20 years

[@0HOON0]

There is an argument that retaining the current kerosene aviation infrastructure would result in less CO2 emissions than making the switch.

[@apinho100]

I feel that hydrogen cars are trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, thanks to electric vehicles

[@yoyyaesta4808]

Actually Hydrogen cars are trying to solve a real problem for them: BEVs will kill combustion cars. Hydrogen is a trojan, is a way to save fosil (petrol/gas/carbon) industry because they are the ones that generates the H2 and keep you going to the gas station.

[@xmtxx]

@@yoyyaesta4808 Yep, that's been exactly my thought for a looong time. IT will be, at best, a niche market for heavy duty (semi) long haul transportation.

[@airestocky]

@@xmtxx even this business is already covered by BEV trucks

[@kulan9379]

​@@xmtxx and me as a farmer. I have to harvest all acers in a really short window of time and has no time for charging i am sorry to say. But i rid the diesel at least.

[@slovackoinfo]

It solves the problem created by the BEVs. Time is money. Mirai refueling 5 min = 600 km, Tesla S 5 min = 100 km.

[@thorbjrnhellehaven5766]

3:40 and, if someone comes to refuel, they'll probably have to wait for the station to re-pressurize anyway. So it after all makes little difference.

[@AnnihilatedBrainsample]

Biggest problem with hydrogen is it IS the smallest atom. It can go through other bigger molecules. So no matter how perfect the seal is, hydrogen will always leak. And in an oxygen rich environment it not just flammable but explosive! A battery fire will look like a candle flame compared to a hydrogen fire. Also high pressure itself can be explosive.

[@trevorberridge6079]

The other problem with hydrogen is that you can only store so much of it in any given space. Meanwhile energy density is increasing in batteries all the time. You can get more energy to ever smaller batteries. So even though you only have so much space in an EV for batteries, that same space will hold more and more capacity year on year as battery tech evolves. But a 5.2kg hydrogen tank will still only hold 5.2kg of hydrogen.

[@kl3nd4thu]

And the tanks on the Mirai has an expiration date noted on the fuel door too. I guess you need to pressure test the tanks after 10+ years. I forget what that lifetime is. But I wonder how much that test would be since there aren't many hydrogen cars on the road. And if they do need to be replaced, that would be expensive too.

[@kain0m]

You're wrong about hydrogen fires/explosions. It is near impossible to keep Hydrogen from escaping if there is a leak, and if there is a fire, the flame will go straight upwards. Batteries are orders of magnitude more dangerous in terms of fire. But that still isn't a problem.

[@davidkendall2272]

Thanks for doing this review final on hydrogen. Badly needed to refute the hydrogen fanatics who continue to spout hydrogen as the ultimate. Cost and efficiency and the ability to charge my car off my solar powered roof make battery powered EVs a no brainer.

[@StefanoFinocchiaro]

You can have 5.1kg of fuel or 175 kwh but then when you use it you will loose about 40% of it because of the fuel cell efficency (60% for the Mirai). So from 175 Kwh you can only use about 105 Kwh

[@brushlessmotoring]

It's worse than that though, as it takes around 54kWh per kg to make using electrolysis, so that 5.1kg tank took 275kWh to fill from source. You get about 76.5kWh back out, 28% roundtrip efficiency. It's really bad. Mirai makes the Hummer EV look like an Eco car.

[@konsul2006]

"Video killed the radio star" and Bjorn killed the hydrogen car🤣

[@FutureSystem738]

As have NUMEROUS other people. Yet still, Toyota is not listening. Bye bye Toyota.

[@FullSimDriving]

thanks for sending Hydrogen= BS message Bjorn

[@sadlogic]

If you can get an interview with the bus company that would be awesome to to talk to them about how they figured out hydrogen isnt for them.

[@jasonriddell]

also the "cost" compared to the retired DIESEL fleet would be interesting as they would KNOW those numbers

[@mfurmyr]

Toyota Mirai is a classic example of how badly things can go when the management of a company has tunnel vision. In the Fully Charged podcast with Jim Farley, CEO of Ford Motor, he mentions that the Ford E 150 Lightning was one of the side projects they were working on with a few idealistic individuals. Many within Ford wanted to kill the project, but Farley refused and protected the project. Initially, they believed the car would go 100 miles. Over time, the range increased, and eventually, the project was deemed production-ready. Today, the car is a tremendous success. When you look at how far Toyota has come with electric vehicles, it is clear that they did not have any dedicated electric car projects for a long time. The management at Toyota has unilaterally focused on hybrid cars and hydrogen cars as the only solution.

[@romansitner8345]

lightning is just an incredible waste of energy just to have "big car".

[@mfurmyr]

Used right the Lightning can be a very useful car both in work and in private use. It can provide power to a house for three days and blackout is not uncommon in many places in the US and UK.

[@romansitner8345]

@@mfurmyr yes, you can power your house for days, tow a yacht, transport ton of coal... however most of the time it would do the same service as huyndai kona what can with 1/3 of energy. it is common that people buy car for 1% of their trips.

[@mfurmyr]

"Hello, it is true that many car owners do not need such a car, but what about those who require it for their job? This includes farmers, carpenters, masons, and many others who need to transport various goods and perhaps require the power it can generate. It could be electricity for cement mixers and much more. In Norway, everyone who ordered the car had to provide a justification for why they could purchase the car and not buy it for speculative resale purposes."

[@Siguy6604]

@@romansitner8345 I agree it is a waste of energy but I feel it is an important step towards full BEV pickup trucks. I live in north america and the reality is the culture here is very pickup truck based. You will never get big adoption (here) of BEV if you don thave pickup truck BEV's.

[@chriselliott2485]

As the power output of a fuel cell increases the efficiency drops, so yeah as the speed increases there will be an outsized drop in efficiency. Also the cooling requirements of a fuel cell are higher even than ICE cars so there's probably a lot of drag losses from the cooling system.

[@kain0m]

But on the flipside, FCEV don't have zero range in the cold, and you can turn on the heater without regret.

[@ME-cb1vw]

Recently read about bus h2 range extender: it's a 60kW type from Toyota which runs at 20kW because it's the most efficient operating point.

[@ralphpetry1745]

It really comes down to Economics 101. I see battery swapping having similar issues to hydrogen. They sound great on paper with the thought of saving time at the "refueling" stage but the economics as you scale implode compared to charging. This was a great "boots on the ground" review and I think Byorn's thoughts are spot on that hydrogen does not have much of a future.

[@davidcottrell570]

Actually, I watched a video on Fully Charged about battery swapping for commercial heavy duty vehicles in Australia. That made a lot of sense, and minimized the need for multiple megawatt charging capacity and time to charge for vehicles on the clock. Heavy trucks have pretty standard locations for their fuel tanks, making it easy to retrofit and load batteries using a forklift. Passenger cars are all over the map in terms of battery size and location, so purpose built facilities aren’t as practical.

[@Reason077]

@@davidcottrell570 Swapping maybe makes sense in a world without good charging infrastructure. But fast-charging scales much better, eliminating a lot of time, labour, logistics hassles, potential points of failure, etc. Besides, long-haul truckers have mandatory rest break requirements, and short-haul fleets get parked overnight. So even in the absence of super-fast charging, it's not a big disruption to operations.

[@CampGareth]

You mention the lack of interior space. One way to solve that would be to double tank pressure then halve the tank space but would the fuelling stations handle that without an expensive refit? How does the car communicate its maximum pressure? In the UK I've heard our stations are only 300psi not 700 so can't fill a mirai tank. EVs and 400/800v charging compatibility is easy by comparison. Edit: bar not psi, thanks xmtxx2

[@xmtxx]

If you double tank pressure, you'll need bigger wall, or you'd be better off storing liquid H2. Both are hell to maintain, and prevent leaks. It's bar, not PSI. 700 bar (10 000 PSI), is already insane pressure.

[@CampGareth]

​@@xmtxx I didn't realise it was that high! Hope the tanks hold in a crash

[@rasch19785]

Simply put , to get an FCEV charged,you need to take electricity,produce the hydrogen,then Transport that hydrogen(with a diesel truck) to a filling station(which can only store very little hydrogen) to put in a car,in which the hydrogen gets converted to electricity (via the H2 fuel cell stack) to run the EV motor it has .. oh as a bonus water comes out the plastic tailpipe

[@kng128]

Yes! Well put!

[@Cjdergrosse]

I'm an open-minded EV proponent. If there is a better option, I'd go for it. Right now there are a couple cons vs EVs; 1) Price for Hydrogen is insanely expensive. In an EV you pay for the technology, and battery pack and its pretty straight forward. How you get your electricity is up to you; Solar, Wind, Nuclear, Coal, Fossil Fuels via through at home, or fast charging. 2) Recharging at home, unless you have had an EV, you don't know how much this is a HUGE positive. I DC (Fast charge) for road trips extremely infrequently, but I charge at home 99%+, I have saved more time not going to gas stations, than I will ever sit at a DC charger on a road trip (vs gas stations). 3) Hydrogen infrastructure is decades behind EV charging, which is way behind Norge, as we know from watching Bjorn.

[@LoneWolf-wp9dn]

4) The fundamental laws of physics that govern this entire universe

[@FGGiskard]

@@LoneWolf-wp9dn can you elaborate? Seems a bit generic

[@FGGiskard]

All good but consider the following UC 1) people living in urban areas that do not have access to a home plug 2) long distance trucks and buses 3) any other vehicle where time to charge and weight is essential to operation (for example aviation, maybe also shipping i don’t know about that in particular but just thinking about weight pf batteries and how to charge them at very high power…)

[@benjaminsmith2287]

@@FGGiskard I believe in FCEVs. There was a time when BEVs were slow and expensive and very few believed in them. If anyone is open-minded to FCEVs it should be people into EVs. BEVs aren't the only form of EVs that can exist and I think the issues with hydrogen will, in time, be overcome. I don't think BEVs are the answer in all of the commercial industry.

[@razvanlex]

Let's try to see what can co wrong with that pro's. 1. Ten years ago batteries were crazy expensive, car wit 18kWh batteries. How you get your electricity depends on the country you live in and most importantly on the electricity company. It might be gas or coal. If you live in flat, no solar for you. 2. Rechargint at home is impossible for the majority of people that live in flats. DC fast charging can be a nightmare in many countries, too few station, many times broken, you need an app or a keytag... 3. Electric infrastructure for EV charging WAS decades behind fuel stations ten years ago. In many countries it stil is.

[@SpottedSharks]

Engineering Explained has a great video on the complexity of hydrogen engines. Far more complex than BEVs.

[@Reason077]

The Mirai uses a hydrogen fuel cell, not a hydrogen engine. The fuel cell generates electricity from hydrogen to power what is otherwise basically a small-battery BEV. Hydrogen combustion engines do exist as well, but that's a whole other thing! But yes, basically right: fuel-cell EVs are far more complex than battery EVs.

[@Siguy6604]

@@Reason077 the Hydrogen combusion as explained in the Engineering Explained video really is a non starter. You cannot even park that car indoors. Maybe however for busses and transport trucks but then you have the issue of highly pressurized tanks in vehicles that do get into high velocity accidents.

[@hardkivi]

I heard from a friend in Japan that in Japan they use nuclear power to create hydrogen and they already have more than a 1000 hydrogen stations. The electricity grid in Japan is not so good, so they can not support millions of EVs. They think hydrogen is better solution for them. In Nordic countries electricity grid is much more robust, so EVs are better here.

[@splendidsystems]

It's not a matter of robust grids or not, Nordic countries have low population densities, Tokyo to Osaka is one big city of 100 million people.

[@FriedChairs]

The math doesn’t work out. If they don’t have enough energy for batteries then they don’t have a fraction of the energy for hydrogen cars since the efficiency is so much lower for hydrogen. Both will draw power from their nuclear plants. Hydrogen just will require multiples more.

[@paulhorton5612]

It's basic physics - it's not even hard. H2 is systemically inefficient compared to battery electric. Electricity -> Battery -> Motor vs Electricity -> Electrolyser -> Pipeline - > H2 compression and storage -> H2 Decompression -> Fuel Cell - > Electricity (back to where we started) -> Motor I wonder which pathway has lower losses overall? Hmmmm The electricity network is built, it just needs a capacity upgrade The H2 network is not built Not to mention safety concerns, packaging in vehicle etc etc.

[@peteversage4473]

Thanks! Chipping in for the hydrogen😏

[@bjornnyland]

Thank you for the support. You have now paid 1 % of the hydrogen costs I had during these tests 🤣

[@dyhppyx]

So happy for you. Nearing 300k!

[@sworksm552]

How is the service interval, the nexo must go to the garage every 10.000km for leak test...

[@petertraveller6421]

Elon said like 10 years ago it's a foolcell, it will never be as good as EV.

[@leftcoaster67]

Elon isn't always right. But he is on this case. Maybe he shouldn't be cheaping out on removing Lidar from his vehicles and thinking cameras will do everything.

[@AWildBard]

98% of hydrogen is made from methane reforming. So it is actually, in that case, a fossil fuel derived energy source. Even so, it's more expensive than gas or diesel. Making it from electrolysis is at least 3 x more expensive and hydrogen in fuel cells doesn't use energy as efficiently as battery electric. Hydrogen fuel cells use more rare metals like platinum. Hydrogen leaks through normal steel and other metals. Specialized metal alloys are required to make tanks. In seams, hydrogen escapes making pipelines very unrealistic or else very expensive. Fuel cells add a little more range than batteries at this time. But the additional costs means that hydrogen can never compete with batteries except maybe in some niche applications. In some industries, hydrogen is necessary. We do need to decarbonize the production of hydrogen for those industries.

[@clivepierce1816]

Just to clarify the fundamental flaws with using hydrogen as a fuel. 1) It makes no sense energetically because its production and use as a fuel is grotesquely inefficient. 2) It is enormously expensive to store and transport, to say nothing of its safety issues. 3) Steam reforming of methane is the main source of hydrogen today and this is a significant source of greenhouse gas pollution which CCS can only partially remedy - there is no way to produce carbon neutral hydrogen from methane, courtesy of fugitive CH4 emissions in production and transportation. 4) Green hydrogen is enormously expensive to generate from electricity.

[@brushlessmotoring]

Yes.

[@arlingdring2180]

Its better to use metanol for fuel cells. Tanks is smaller, like a fossil tank.

[@LoneWolf-wp9dn]

Oh and another big issue... filters... you need really good filters for the O2 that goes into the fuel cell... so you will have to change them often... another procedural headache which bevs will never have

[@st-ex8506]

Filters get rid of particles, but nor of polluting gases (CO. SO2, NOx, ...)... and some of them poison the fuel cell catalyst. Optimally, fuel celles should be fed pure hydrogen, not ambient air!

[@mmanjin]

The most Toyota ever sold was 2,629 in the US which was in 2021. In 2022 they sold 2,094. Since they started selling the Mirai in 2015 they have sold a cumulative total of 11,357 to the present day. Every Mirai is sold with heavy incentives and they lost money on every one of them. Furthermore, they are only sold in California because it's the only state that has any kind of infrastructure for hydrogen passenger vehicle fueling stations. The only other hydrogen vehicle is the Hyundai Nexo in the US. Most people don't even know it exists and apparently very few if anyone really cares because it only had sold just over 1,000 units in the US since it became available in 2018. In contrast, as of Q1 2023, California has now cumulatively surpassed 1 million battery electric sales. In 2022, more than 750,000 new all-electric cars were registered in the US, which was 57 percent more than in 2021 and 5.6 percent of the total market. Of that number, 95,946 EVs were sold in the first quarter of this year alone, with the vast majority of those sales being Tesla vehicles. That's just in the US and it's growing exponentially here and around the world. If we look at the rest of the world, EV sales are even more impressive. China is both the largest auto and electric vehicle market in the world, home to an estimated 200 EV manufacturers. Nearly 6 Million Plug-In Cars Were Sold In 2022. Some of these also consisted of plug-in hybrids. Regardless, the point is none were hydrogen vehicles. Over 56 thousand hydrogen fuel cell passenger vehicles were sold worldwide by the end of 2022, says Information Trends in a study. The numbers are incontrovertible and speak for themselves, which is that hydrogen vehicles are DOA and will never be anything of significance because of the economics and logistics involved in the production, storage and distribution of hydrogen making it cost prohibitive as compared to battery electric vehicles.

[@splendidsystems]

Toyota will start mass-producing the H2 Crown this summer. Now they are hand building the Mirai's, which is why volume is low. Tesla Fremont is a factory provided to Tesla by Toyota in 2010. Back then everybody was laughing at Toyota for wasting money on Tesla.

[@maxgreece1]

How would I fill my hydrogen car at home, or at the office? Haven’t been to any kind of charging / refueling station in over a year.

[@mukamuka0]

If Toyota is really care about hydrogen car, they will already build Network of refuel station all over the US long time ago.

[@LoneWolf-wp9dn]

yeah at least a few... they built none

[@phonehoppy]

Thank you again Bjørn for this great video, and I completely agree with your opinion on hydrogen tech!

[@gabrielricci4464]

Bjorn, been following you on EV's for year.s You always present high value information. Concerning the hydrogen cars, there was a report issued over the last 6 month that drove the nail into the heart of the hydrogen car industry. I am shocked that the likes of Toyota missed this point. The report was issued by a top US university and indicated that the combustion of hydrogen is not clean. The chemical product produced by hydrogen car is not only toxic it can never be reduced in nature like CO2 can. Trees and CO2 work together to create more oxygen. But the chemical product produced by hydrogen combustion can not be reduced in nature. That means to reduce co2 we will create a byproduct of combustion that will exasperate an already bad C02 situation. Sorry, I don't recall more about that report, but you are the man that can expose this folly, that will further endanger mankind.

[@roksivec9117]

This video will be interesting rewatch after 10-15-20 years.

[@Beamer_i4_M50]

No. It won’t. Hydrogen is dead. At least for private cars.

[@roksivec9117]

​@@Beamer_i4_M50May be. Vlog will be interesting on one way or another.

[@RobinTFH]

Very good analysis. And you didn't mention that storing hydrogen for long periods takes energy. As a gas it leaks out of everything, but liquified, it takes energy to keep it in liquid form as it has to be kept extremely cold. You mentioned the speed of an ICE car versus a hydrogen car. Of course, a BEV (a Tesla Plaid) holds the speed record around the Nurburgring circuit - not exactly slow. Thankyou for an excellent video.

[@Zedus-rl9hp]

The losses are extremely low, a normal user does not even notice this

[@JuhaKoskela]

Another point about hydrogen feasibility. Hydrogen doesn't come out from the socket at home. So this means it HAS to be transported at least some way, no matter how close by it is produced (the production process needs to be secure enough so it cannot happen in just any place). Hydrogen storage is WAY less "efficient" than for example diesel storage. So storage needs to be refilled muhc more frequently (about 6 times for requently than diesel storage). That means 6 times more trucks transporting hydrogen on our roads. There is no point whatsoever switching to hydrogen. One more point. The fuel cell used in the hydrogen cars requires very very clean air. That means it requires very very effective air filtering. That means it has very short service period (needs to be serviced about 10 times more frequently than an EV). Also the fuel cell (which costs same as a EV battery) doesn't have long life span (this may impove in the future).

[@jjonkie]

@39:40 that's why we get so many Mirai video's :-) I'm glad is D O N now !

[@rasch19785]

Hmm do I build 30 high tech HPCs or one H2 fuel pump .. Do I provide energy for a simple technology or do I provide energy for tech that only two OEMs offer...Hmmm

[@showme360]

Thanks Bjorn for clearing that issue up about hydrogen cars and buses, its proved to be a very interesting video, will share!! Hope you break even on the costs to make this video, otherwise sheeeet! 😬 BUT what happens if the car catches fire, I don't think I would like to be anywhere near it when than thing goes up, it will make a BEV look like a sparkler!

[@steveyoung8376]

battery benefit you can balance the renewable based grid- ie charge when surplus electricity and discharge when shortage of electricity, you cant do this with hydrogen

[@sora.2111]

When is a video with the Tesla Model Y RWD in Norway planned??

[@rebeccajarratt1487]

So glad I watched to the very end. Your last little bit summed it up beautifully 😂

[@henvan8737]

Liquid Hydrogen is a difficult storage fuel as there needs to be an expensive refrigeration plant to keep it at -253 deg C. Also compressing the Hydrogen gas is also an expensive and inefficient process to store it at between 10,000 to 12,000 psi. This is the wrong solution going forward.

[@Patrobasket]

Ockhams razor: A Proton is 1600 times heavier than an electron. That makes electricity much superior to Proton chemistry. Ok: Lithium has its chemistry too, but it stays at the battery, it doesnt come from far far away as the Protons for en FCEV

[@LoneWolf-wp9dn]

And just work vs thermal energy i think seals it... work was always the better option but the engineering wasnt there... thermal energy will always be fundamentally universally inefficient

[@Animage100]

Very good video and congrats to almost 300k subs! All the points I'm repeating for years. Hydrogen is good for local storage or applications where you can burn it directly like the metal industry. In everything else it has to low efficiency.

[@kardy12]

Depends. If we are serious about replacing fossil fuels with renewables in our electricity grids, we will need to build a lot of excess capacity to ensure we have enough power during demand peaks. That excess renewable energy that would otherwise be wasted can be captured using hydrogen electrolysis for virtually zero marginal cost. At that point, the relative inefficiency is less relevant.

[@timseytiger9280]

​@kardy12 that's what demand mgmt. and batteries are for.

[@FGGiskard]

@@timseytiger9280 are huge batteries the best way to store excess energy? Is that more sustainable in terms of CO2 than H2?

[@Animage100]

@@kardy12 That is true, so maybe not only local storage but also grid storage. But on the other hand does the power generation become more and more decentralized which benefits local storage.

[@Animage100]

@@FGGiskard One idea I've heard which sounded pretty interesting was to use old car batteries for grid storage. Because they loose less and less capacity as they age, they would last pretty long. And at the end you could still recycle them into new batteries. But I don't know the CO2 const of batteries vs H2. One thing is for sure though, that you would need less energy generation capabilities with batteries due to the higher efficiency. So currently, where we have a grey energy mix in most countries, battery storage is better I think.

[@AdamPearce]

Until this year I was agnostic on the hydrogen fuel question - but Bjorn you've nailed the issue - the economies of scaled up hydrogen just don't add up. For transport Hydrogen is out.

[@FGGiskard]

For private and short distance transport*

[@st-ex8506]

@@FGGiskard ANY road transport... with possible rare exceptions. Even trucks going long distances are limited by legal hours for the driver. And that limitation makes recharging an electric truck perfectly feasible, while the driver rests. The only exception would be team operations (2 drivers), which exist in North America, but not in Europe.

[@FGGiskard]

@@st-ex8506 1. What do you mean they do not exist? Of course they do 2. Europe and the USA are a small part of the world 3. Even if they did not exist regulation in Spain for example establishes 45 minute rest every 4.5h impossible at the moment (you’d need chargers of nearly 1.2MW)

[@st-ex8506]

@@FGGiskard In Europe, team operations are basically non existant. I know it from my neighbor, who is a retired trucking company CEO. The reason is simple: a second driver is more expensive than the time value of an immobilized truck. In the USA, they exist but are rare. Maybe, they are more common in low salaries countries? Drivers must indeed rest 45 mn after 4.5 hours. But after 9 hours, the day is over, for both driver and truck, and you have plenty of time for recharging. Tesla’s Megachargers for trucks are not 1.2 MW, but still 1 MW. So, in 45 mn, the truck’s battery could still be recharged about 50%, enough for another 4.5 hours of driving. Having said this, I believe that the Megachargers will be destination chargers, rather than on truck stops, where such level of fast-charging is not really needed. Finally, the majority of trucking operations are not long-distance trucking from say, Andalusia to Germany, but regional or local distribution, or going from distribution warehouse to another one, always within the famous 9-hour driving limitation.

[@rhydlew]

Why wait 6 seconds plugging in your EV at home, when you can make a trip to a retailing station, and stand around for 5mins next to your car, and pay £/€/$100 for a tank ....like the good old days 😂 Good try oil companies, but sayonara

[@densek510]

14:48 H2 price)

[@brawnbenson552]

Hearing Bjorn call the previous model “fugly” cracked me up. hahahaha 😂😂😂

[@henvan8737]

To summarize I feel Toyota not only chose the wrong fuel type (Hydrogen) but also did not understand that electric vehicles will be the future. And now are lagging a long way behind with the BZ4X and Lexus UX300e. I hope they can make a comeback.

[@benjaminsmith2287]

FCEVs are EVs. They're just a different type of electric vehicle. And Volvo, Mercedes, Daimler, and a whole bunch others are getting into FCEVs, not only Toyota. You BEV-only folks act like Toyota is the only company researching and pursuing FCEVs. They're not.

[@swedenevguru8483]

​@@benjaminsmith2287 Volvo and Mercedes have only invested in hydrogen trucks. But Bmw have a hydrogen car they developed atleast and Kia/Hyundai have the Nexo and maybe more depends how they sell

[@benjaminsmith2287]

@@swedenevguru8483 Yes. But Volvo and Mercedes are invested in FCEVs for commercial heavy vehicles. So, there are a good amount of companies invested in this technology.

[@swedenevguru8483]

@@benjaminsmith2287 Thats i told with trucks or lorrys that UK says. Scania in Sweden goes all in Electric Trucks for cargo. So there are money invested in hydrogen but depends on what customers choice as always. Battery electric are leading alot today and are more economic for the customers and refill it are impossible in Sweden almost. 400 km are to far thats 249 miles to nearest station for me

[@Reason077]

@@benjaminsmith2287Hydrogen is expensive, and it will always be expensive, because of physics. Trucking is a cost-sensitive business: why would they want to _increase_ operating costs by switching from diesel to higher-cost hydrogen, when they could instead _lower_ them by switching to electricity? Makes no sense!

[@gelisob]

If Björn would have made the test in winter, it would have been maybe more interesting. Because this car can also coldgate, and the problem of fuel cell freezing is quite serious. Probably consumes a lot more in winter to keep that thing in the "don't die pls" condition.

[@splendidsystems]

Fuel cells are being used in space where the temperature is close to absolute zero, ie -270°C.

[@AliusScitmelius]

Losses in fules cells are mainly heat. When gold starting fuel cell losses can be much higher before it reaches operating temperature.

[@brucec954]

But how else are the oil companies and oil countries going to keep making massive profits?

[@superscort57]

Lol old mirai was fugly. This one in person is nice looking. But the cost of hydrogen and lack of filling stations here in California isn't worth it

[@SomeTechGuy666]

The reason for a 63% increase in power at 120Km/h versus 90 Km/h is the fuel cell efficiency is falling off as the power draw gets higher.

[@splendidsystems]

Not really. Power at constant speed = sum of all drag and drag increases by the square of speed 1/2*Cd*rho*A*V2 120km/h = 1.3 x 90km/h. 1.3 x 1.3 = 1.69 This is valid for all direct-drive vehicles. So if EV's are not showing +69% it's because they are not showing the real consumption but their displays are lying. On ICE's it's a bit different. They have an idle or baseload consumption, so the increase is less drastic.

[@landdealsCA]

Perhaps although the hydro Calif is produced as byproduct of oil refining so in the less efficient but more environmental.

[@alb9472]

Hydrogen should only be used for some industies like steel and fertilizer and primerely with surplus electricity. Just think of the mirai when its >10 years old and not serviced properly.

[@extendedepicmusic5017]

The infrastructure is not there for Hydrogen, it cost up to 1 million dollars to build one hydrogen refueling station. The cost is too high.

[@igotheals]

I absolutely agree; Toyota had a golden opportunity about 10-15 years ago when they were competing with electric cars like the Nissan Leaf - which was a shadow of what it is now - and the Tesla Roadster, which was a great car but way out of most people's price range. But what they did instead was to rest on their laurels while Tesla figured out that you have to build a good infrastructure to power your alternative fuel car - then Tesla went and actually did that. Granted, it would have cost way more to build out a hydrogen infrastructure for the Mirai, but that's what Toyota had to do in order to make this even glimpse at success. Instead, they languished on the infrastructure and Tesla ate their lunch; now Toyota's being left in the dust by the rest of the auto industry instead of being an innovation leader. It could have been so different if they were willing to invest in the infrastructure like Tesla was.

[@Simon-dm8zv]

Not really. Hydrogen has always been dead on arrival due to physics, not due to technology or market timing.

[@GolLeeMe]

You are probably correct, but one part of the critical thinking on Bus refuelling would be to compare charging times for electric buses compared to refuelling times for H buses. Therefore , the throughput. Maybe the economic question around the cost of installing charging points might be a little more balanced or in favour of H. That said, electricity from the grid is at the site so it needs little infrastructure, but many rapid charging buses at any one time would be shaped to what the grid can accept. Hydrogen would need delivery (presumably by truck) to a storage tank on site and this would be quite a feat to work out the CO2 and cost equation of which is better long term. Can’t argue on costs/km though, and I until that equation changes with perhaps more uptake of H, it seems it may be an expensive fuel.

[@jungleent1972]

Whether it's hydrogen or electrical, the point is this whole transition from FF will literally require that no one in the country is poor

[@slavko321]

If you look closer (or wider), the economy will stop existing soon, which might surprise "poor" and almost poor people. (ai, negative prices for electricity, massive chinese price dumping, ...)

[@lipevp123]

So, the most common hydrogen fuel tank for cars, trucks, buses and other vehicles is that which holds compressed hydrogen gas in a range of 3,600 psi - 10,000 psi..... DO YOU HAVE AN IDEA WHAT IS 10.000 PSI ?????? Its a Bomb with 4 wheels

[@JL-st1jf]

Yes, you are basically driving a hydrogen bomb around. Imagine if you got into an accident, half the city block could be gone. 😵‍💫

[@annekecornee]

Hyundai Nexo is dying. Hyundai stopped developing it. So the Mirai is the only H2 car available in Europe (in the US Honda has the Clarity)

[@splendidsystems]

Toyota will start mass-poduction of the hydrogen Crown this summer. It will be the first mass-produced H2 vehicle.

[@kairikkola]

​@@splendidsystems Now it's end of september and no mass production. Toyota fucked up. They choose wrong card. EV drivers like me are never going to change 25 times more expensive hydrogen. Plus I'll charge my Ionic in my garage. You'll wait 40 minutes compression if there's another charger on H2 station.

[@mnipp]

I don't know if Hydrogen will play a big part in transport. But Industry still uses Hydrogen and new uses such as clean Steel by moving away from coal means Green Hydrogen needs to replace all current uses going forward. Hydrogen is used in many industrial processes Nearly all of the hydrogen consumed in the United States is used by industry for refining petroleum, treating metals, producing fertilizer, and processing foods. U.S. petroleum refineries use hydrogen to lower the sulfur content of fuels.

[@ScrapKing73]

Hydrogen fuel cells… always the technology of the future, but never the technology of the present.

[@MohamedAlnuaimi71]

Bjorn buy EQS please.

[@catalicos]

To me it still seems crazy that this car exists and anyone can buy it. I mean why would anyone buy this? Other than being James May, of course :) But yeah, great that we have these real tests now, so we can easily send any hydrogen-fanboy here, without going into that stupid debate.

[@brushlessmotoring]

It is interesting, Bjorn is the FIRST person covering this car to come clean on the consumption - everyone else just reads from the Toyota sheet - "400 mile range, hydrogen is clean" - no one has caned the car and said, actually, 225 mile range at 80mph and the hydrogen comes from fossil fuels, or uses 3 times the energy of an EV.

[@MaestroAbar]

You're mostly correct except for one part: hydrogen energy density is way higher than existing battery technology by a large margin (roughly 120MJ/kg), and when mixed with air, is comparable to that of gasoline, vs Lithium Ion battery which is a pathetic 2.5MJ/kg.

[@bjornnyland]

You missed or skipped the part in the video where I talked about poor efficiency with hydrogen systems.

[@peterzerfass4609]

In the end its about cost (for private or public transport and - most of all - for logistics). Something that requires 3-4 times as much power to make per kilometer of mobility utility can never be cheaper. And that part is limited in a hard way by *physics* ...not open to "maybe we'll figure something out" That's the long and short of it.

[@AhmedSam]

They are losing the market. I enjoyed the Hydrogen discussion! This hydrogen conversion backward and forward makes no sense. It's a clear winner for EVs

[@jadziadax8658]

The only modes of transportation where I see a future for H2 are: - Upper stages of launch vehicles, although more and more stages are switching to Methane or even RP-1 - Long-range airplanes, since batteries will be insufficient for a long time (need at least 2-3kWh/kg on the pack level to be remotely feasible) I think everything else is futile and a waste of money and time.

[@jadziadax8658]

@@logitech4873 Not yet outside of tests. Hydrogen or e-fuels, I'm not sure. Batteries are out of reach for a long time (long-haul it's mostly the energy density which is an order of magnitude short, and for short range it's the cycle count. Short haul planes run up to 100k cycles in their lifetime, so batteries if cheap enough should do AT LEAST 10k-20k))

[@Lowieken73]

There is conversion of energy when charging a battery, Electricity --> Chemical and Chemical --> Electricity when discharging. That being said, it's still way more efficient than H2. But it's these kind of snags that the H2 crowd will use to discredit the arguments made in the video. Like I said I do totally agree H2 is not the solution, except that snag about conversions all the arguments against H2 are totally valid. (For anyone interested a few months ago the totally electric show had brilliant discussion on this with an expert, the man came from a think tank on green transition of transport (private and public) )

[@brushlessmotoring]

Did you mean everything electric show? Bobby's side channel to Fully Charged? kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnrIhGOnfK2Dgsk

[@MohamedAlnuaimi71]

very informative video , Thanks Bjorn 😀