Training Without Conflict Podcast Episode Four: Dr. Ian Dunbar

[@californiadreamer2580]

I do very much appreciate having civil discussions regarding different perspectives on the subject.

[@PARoth2011]

Ivan, thank you so much for having Dr Dunbar on your podcast, he is wonderful, it was so enjoyable as well as informative to watch. Oh gosh, it was like visiting with an old friend because I read his early book and so many of his articles way back in the day. His ideas influenced the horse world too. People didn’t start training saddle horses until they were two or three until it was shown that if weanlings (with their dams) experienced the stress of leaving the barn, traveling, saw and felt change of environment and surfaces, were handled more plus heard the noise of horse shows in their first 6months of life they were better and more relaxed competitors as adults because the travel stress didn’t bother them, they stayed calmer and didn’t colic or develop neurotic behaviors. I tried some of his methods with Collie puppies and built little agility tunnels out of stove pipe and made all kinds of fun things to climb haha..and yes, I did that military thing too with cotton in the ears and ice on the feet. I really liked that he respected the methods that yield the best results the fastest and easiest. Though he may not personally like using e-collars, I sure appreciated his idea on how to condition a dog to use it, that was brilliant! I think one of the most impressive take always was his humility to say what his greatest failures were..it was quite funny that his dog jumped five rings away then sat on command. Well done, sir! 👍

[@CVersailles]

That was a great presentation and I enjoyed it very much. I could listen to Dr. Dunbar day in and day out. Thank you for the opportunity.

[@dogsensetrainingandbehavio903]

Fantastic discussion. Every trainer should listen to this 🖤

[@learner2075]

“The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, second best time is now” .... so true!!!!

[@JoJo_GSD]

Really enjoyed this podcast thank you 🤗 would be great to have a Dr Dunbar part 2!!😉

[@pittymama4500]

And 3 and 4...

[@EauDeMichele]

This interview proved to me that I never knew what I thought I knew about Ian Dunbar. And that I've been doing more right things with my dog than I realised.

[@annemariecullen3650]

There are so many thoughts coming from so much experience - I will watch this many times and still be mentally processing the conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights, Ivan and Ian.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you! Enjoy Anne Marie!

[@2whiteshepherds]

“You must use the problem as the reward” quote Dunbar. This! I do this all the time but never heard it packaged neat into one sentence.

[@pittymama4500]

I could listen to him for hours just for all this intriguing research because I wanna know anything and everything down to the cells when it comes to dogs.

[@ettaj3325]

So inspiring!

[@kimmanning4989]

Brilliant!

[@kadsr859]

Someones on Fire! Thanks for all the work and guests!!

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you!

[@konukuauleki]

wow!!! what a fantastic conversation, thanks to both of you.

[@richardgardner2479]

Wonderful! Thank you.

[@zaki1914]

Thank you! This was great!!!

[@bestbudsdogsllc2603]

loved this episode. Dr Dunbar has so much knowledge to share and I loved his idea of bringing back the k9 games. Great interview where you let him share some of his amazing experiences and ideas. 👏🏻

[@IvanBalabanov]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@sweetestdew]

I found an american bully on the high way once and tried to train the aggression out of it. I did alot of good things but made mistakes. Alot of my mistakes was because I went too fast. I was doing what i saw online but forgetting the online training was editted so after a single good session I would introduce it to my Amstaff....which of course led to many fights.

[@starfoxloves]

Wow, what an interesting conversation! I would have had to call him out a few times but I'm so grateful to you, Ivan, for letting him talk for the benefit of opening the door to conversation from all sides. I actually still got a lot out of it and a few things balanced trainers tend to preach that I disagree with or don't get were clarified or dismissed in a way that makes sense to me. I think the information he presented will definitely make me a better trainer. I feel I can take the parts I agree with and leave the rest. What a gift, not to be stuck in one mentality or another! It's interesting that he said e-collars aren't an aversive so they don't work, but when properly used, they aren't meant to be used as an aversive. It's another way to touch your dog. That part had me laughing. I wonder how such an intelligent and educated man missed the ball so hard on that one. 🤔 Anyway another great podcast! I'm so glad you started making these.

[@IvanBalabanov]

Thank you for joining in

[@starfoxloves]

​@@IvanBalabanov Of course! I think it's so cool you actually got a basically po trainer to talk to you! I just wanted to drop back in because, I just watched a Tom Davis video where he equated e-collar training to "remote clicker training." I was like "yessssss" 💯! Wanted to post that here for anyone else who's annoyed with Dunbar's misinterpretation. Hopefully that helps someone with a client or producing some content. ❤ #zendogtraining

[@kulan9379]

​​@@starfoxloves1:36:00 makes him not a positive only guy in my book. His a dog guy. Lightly handed, but not a positive only. Beacuse they are more about the narrative, Mr Dunbar is for the dog. But allow people to talk regardless the camp is important to bridge the gap, im in it for the dog. The lighter hand i can use, the happier i get. But i use what i think is to me a heavy hand if i have to in order to get a well behaved dog.

[@shield7995]

New dog owner from Greece ! Learning from the best !Thank you Ivan !!

[@IvanBalabanov]

Happy to help!

[@dogsfromthecity]

One thing that not many people use is game theory. There are so many game theories for learning and fun that is not used for dog training. I have a game background and it has been a joy to identify the several types of 'user players' (the dogs) and finding out what kind of gamers they are. :)

[@dogsenseforu301]

@dogsfromthecity See Susan Garrett who insists on play only - The great thing is that in last 10-15 yrs or so in Western Europe using games is the predominant method of training used by dog trainers, above food etc. Keep playing... And most importantly - for dogs and humans alike - keep up the fun and the love! ❤🎉

[@mollasima3251]

When you talk about game theory, you're talking about the theoretical framework for conceiving social situations among competing players? Not playing actual games, right?

[@joprkmn]

I enjoy my Companion Hazel She always try's to find ways to please me to keep my attention on her. Now that OESD come with these wonderful waggy tails she is much easier to read interaction with others dogs and humans we meet at our beach park. Dr. Ian I have followed your methods since my 1st OESD in the 80s and now as a long time member of OESD of Fb recommend your book, DVDS and Videos to new members when they ask about training, or when they start having troubles. It seems there are those who push medications and I see to much shock aid ads. Getting off the track JUST A GREAT BIG THANK YOU for showing me a Better healthier way to handle people and pups and LIFE IN GENERAL!

[@goldiegirl30]

Fantastic podcast! 😊

[@LauraHopkinsCDL]

Dogs have started dying early since the annual vaccination program. My first 2 dogs lived to 17 and 19 but now I can't get a dog past 12. I lost one dog to a booster, watching her die over days , it was awful. I will now only do the puppy shots and titer test and see how long this dog lives. I feed her raw in a balanced way and she exercises and works daily. Enjoying every second of life. She is confident high drive Border Collie and switches off at home. She is my Service Dog. It has taken thousands of hours training but so worth it. Will watch the second half later. I have been training since I was 6 so nearly 50 years. Thank you : ) Regards covid pups. We were all allowed to exercise so use that time to take the pups out and train them. Agreed socialization is very misunderstood.

[@dogsenseforu301]

@LauraHopkinsCDL - Apologies for asking 2 yrs after you posted (I ❤Ian Dunbar) but you said Dog vaccinations shorten dog lives and I wonder which vaccinations you are speaking of.... I have observed the number of 'necessary' vaccinations and medications has increased. I wonder if the increase in medications is to do with the decrease in independent veterinarians and the increase in 'veterinarian groups' and ownership by Private Equity. Health to you and all yours. ❤

[@shirinw]

🙏

[@lisarozzz]

I ended up with a 14 month old GSD bitch that was fear biting, this was in the SF Bay Area. The only thing that saved her life was a well adjusted prong collar. She had Zero food drive. Her drive was protect me and “Well done”. What I had to put up with when people saw her tools was insane. She was a three strikes dog. Going to die. Sheesh. Lived 12 extraordinary years taught me soooo much. Thanks Ivan.

[@dogsenseforu301]

Why not use a muzzle until a dog is trained? Obvs all dogs need to be trained to a muzzle in case they need veterinarian visits for something painful etc.

[@mollasima3251]

​@@dogsenseforu301i think original poster wasn't saying the bites happened with him, but before he acquired the dog.

[@sharroon7574]

I had a protective german shepherd mix and she scared a couple of big guys. I talked to the vet and he told me that if I could stay calm and positive and take the lead she would behave. It worked right away. My dog and I were very connected so she just got it.

[@myk9crew]

I took my GSD puppy everywhere, and gave exposure. Yet he still developed environmental sensitivity, reactivity with prey drive over-arousal, and easily overstimulated. Would he have been so anyway, because genetics matter? Could be overfaced with too much socialization. I'm not sure Ian has had a really hard dog!

[@vikingdogmanship]

He could be overprotective over you? Also I see many dogs who become irritated and aggressive from being socialized with the wrong dogs in a dog park. Some dogs are more polite than others, and some can be bullying or have to much energy that will make dogs uncomfortable and end up going for the fight or flight. just like people, dogs have different personalities. Sometimes when a group of dogs get together, some of them can play rougher, be more aggressive, and generally act like a bully. When you’re concerned about the well-being of your dog, it’s important to know how to deal with the dog park bully

[@californiadreamer2580]

I used to watch ID a lot in the past. I too have never seen him handle a hard dog. In addition, in a video, he was presenting his own very overweight Pit Bull that he raised since puppyhood , and had the dog on a down on a park picnic table, but he never let go of the leash and never turned his back on the dog. Didn't appear that the dog was actually trained to any great degree since ID obviously didn't trust his own dog. He totally lost my interest after that.

[@landryrogers8811]

I can understand why his fb audience got upset. Saying that you’ve never used a certain tool and never will but have given many lectures on how to best to use that tool… Why would anybody want to be lectured by someone with no experience in what they’re talking about?

[@beastinblack4055]

What a silly thing to say

[@landryrogers8811]

@@beastinblack4055 How so?

[@gregorysilas6329]

Quite a bit I disagree with here. I don’t think breeding for longevity first and foremost will produce the best dogs. I don’t think it’s selecting for the best temperament or health necessarily. A dog that died at 10 but was active right up till the end is better than one that died at 15 but had arthritis from 4 or 5 and had double hip replacement. I guess the short answer is I value 10 great years over 14 crappy ones.

[@IvanBalabanov]

So we agree then. When talking go longevity it’s is understood quality of life and sport/working longevity

[@wiktorpoliszczuk1372]

😂🤣😅😁

[@stoonley4]

Is this same guy from Dunbar Academy? Because some of the advice from the channel goes against the science. Only spent a couple hours on his channel but bite inhibition and yelping. The advice he gave went against what we know.

[@AlexGrayTech]

Yeah that’s him. My take on it is he knows most people lack the common sense to use anything but positive training, but he’s not against yelling or telling a dog no which I respect. He had an example before where when the dog crosses a threshold of the driveway yell and tell the dog no but as soon as it comes back praise. Plus I think he trains different breeds that respond better to positive only.

[@CB-ev1tj]

Can you tell me where I could read more about the science? I would like to read more about it

[@NoOffensePies]

He just wants what ever works. He said in the interview, quick, slightly painful, fixes are better than failing to train the dog, and depriving him/her of joy long-term. What this means is that just get the job done, forget positive or not, as long as it's not serious abuse.

[@albertcovington9942]

@@NoOffensePies where are his dogs? Proofs in the pudding. All I've ever seen him do is talk.

[@dogsenseforu301]

​@@AlexGrayTechReinforcement training is the best method.

[@marifroggy]

I think that many of the statements that Dr Dunbar said was dangerous and too idealistic. Dogs are animals and putting human values on animal behavior is dangerous.

[@lodgehousestudio6219]

Interesting interview but you can attribute his work to the ‘positive only food rewarding’ fanatics we have everywhere. It’s arguably putting dogs in the worst position they have ever been.

[@xhogun8578]

As apposed to abuse?

[@lodgehousestudio6219]

@@xhogun8578 using any tool or methodology incorrectly is abuse- the majority are using positive only methods now and not doing it correctly ( so that is abuse also). I’ve had three cases of dogs being force fed food reinforcers and having their stomach pumped by positive only trainers.

[@muddyfeetaussies]

This is the one single scientist who advocates for early socialization and training.. that's what he advocates.. oh also has a pretty strict criteria for breeding..also a understanding of breed differences and individual dogs then working with them and find results.. figures out what to do.. not for nothing I am old enough to see a bunch of training methods aside dogs need to get out and such ITs still a huge issue.. oh btw least in my area positive trainers do not do his puppy method..

[@starfoxloves]

Of course, but isn't the goal to open the dialogue with the PO folks and ultimately show that their methods are the ones that are unfair? Coming from a place of love here, but I always just want to ask those people how frustrated they were the last time they tried to complete a project without any information on what not to do. I appreciate Ivan keeping a kind and level head through the whole interview! I'd have had to call that dude out or at least challenge him a few times 😂 Ivan and other balanced advocates approaching these guys with loving kindness is the best way to bridge the gap you're speaking of IMHO.

[@dogsenseforu301]

@lodgehousestudio6219 IMO there's 'Reinforcement based' training and 'Balanced training'... NOBODY (other than v disturbed people) uses 100% positive-only training or 100% aversive-only based training. Could you imagine the horror?! That would literally mean training without even a leash living in a built up area (illegal to be without leash in most places if walking down a road) or pain-based training of dogs only being punished which obvs may be as illegal as walking down a road without a leash. However, the difference is in finding out the best way of limiting aversives and using encouragement.... To get best for dogs. We need videos of everyone in long form vids although short form vids to see what happens can be available for interest but short form doesn't tell us the real story obvs eg - my friend who works in construction worked on a TV show about DIY 'redoing your kitchen' which was purported to take one day aka BS and animals take WAY longer than inanimate objects... Unlike TV shows suggest! Let us all learn from the best rather than criticise and divide. I really love Susan Garrett and really admire Smashface's Kyle Shwab. As an aside.... IMO everyone should have to get a licence and pass a test before purchasing a dog. Anyone purchasing a powerful breed ie a dog able to kill a 1 Yr old should have to get a higher level licence (18 wheeler) and sign a legal agreement that they are responsible - ie get your dog to wear a muzzle of you are at all worried. obvs as you know all dogs should be conditioned to wear a muzzle happily as we never know when required eg for veterinarian visits. Person I know did not do this and their v sweet/never hurt a fly dog was hit by a reckless driver in middle of cross walk and had never bit anyone until damaged leg was picked up by a veterinarian. Also breeders should be licensed and vet checked and all pups vet checked with certificates prior to purchase plus nobody should be allowed to remove a dog from a litter before 8 weeks without a vet certificate (ie vet is on the hook for behavioural issues. Ever. Best practice is 12 weeks for a pup as told by Dr John Bowen (Top behaviourist at UK Royal Veterinary College) because a pups Ma and sibling pups teach things people can't replicate. As you probably know before 8 weeks pups haven't gone through the learning of 'fear' and how to handle 'different' and 'scarey' that they learn during the 9-12 weeks(and beyond esp in adolescence). However, breeders are v difficult when you ask them to keep pups for 12 weeks... Esp if you ask them to ensure pup siblings are always around. Also great breeders insist kids and people wearing all kinds of clothes pick up pups, making noises etc to help them acclimatise eg kids blowing a recorder (maybe scratch that... Kids blowing those things is painful 😊!). All the best - keep our minds open for best we can all do to help each other. Hate the arguments we can have discourse.