Ups & Downs From Star Trek: Discovery 5.6 - Whistlespeak

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[@intouchdm]

To be fair the doctor has been brought back from the dead, experienced mushroom hell, travels by flying mushroom teleporting space ship, travelled to the future to be possessed by an 800 yr old dead man. I would say his life is ALL spiritual experiences and his heads just catching up to it.

[@tlouiseallen9302]

Yes. Having been possessed by a spiritual being after being dead in the mystical mushroom kingdom would make you question a lot of things.

[@oldoneeye7516]

@@tlouiseallen9302 for example on what kind of drugs you actually are.

[@james8449100]

He needs an emergency nan hologram big time

[@wesleyehowell]

So is he going to start calling himself Yoshi or Mario?​@@tlouiseallen9302

[@truuDQ]

The cherry on top is that finding the progenitor's tech is the mission. Their creators. His spiritual awakening/confusion is VERY valid. If this wasn't the last season, we probably would see multiple people on board going through the same, if not worse.

[@stacyp2186]

Burnam must never have watched Ghostbusters. If someone asks if you’re a god, you say”YES!”

[@mteacher9811]

Rookie mistake

[@DeronJ]

Yes, I'm a god, I only need one sacrifice, I'm taking Tilly and sparing your daughter, goodbye. Minimal Prime Directive violation.

[@tlouiseallen9302]

Lol

[@charlesjohnson7458]

Lololol

[@charlesjohnson7458]

Citris Mash all around!

[@librarian1701-D]

Tilly giving the water to the Ravah....was almost like a 'metaphor' of the Prime Directive, you think your helping someone but you don't know where your actions may lead!

[@DarkSapiens]

Ooooh I like this

[@jlevogiani2012]

Definitely that very metaphor! Thank you! I missed that nuance.

[@watcherofwatchers]

Brilliant observation.

[@BigNWide]

Missed an observation: The episode is "Whistlespeak", which the people use because it carries longer distances, and is exactly the reason that whales communicate that way. Whales. No cetacean would miss that observation.

[@SuprSBG]

LOL

[@zerolegacy7821]

Whales don't whistle...

[@weepingscorpion8739]

True, but whistlespeak is actually also used by humans. The Spanish based Silbo whistled language of the people of the island of La Gomera in the Canary Islands probably being the most famous example.

[@Animaniac0451]

I found "Just enjoy it." As Paul being both unable to understand how Hugh feels, but also being supportive for him feeling it. He's a good partner.

[@sahaal79]

I love the editor for putting those easter eggs in the background of the infinity room, lol.

[@startrekiborg]

Okay, I got Q & Picard (Tapestry), but what’s the other one….Sisko?

[@scoutiii8893]

That’s what modern Trek is built on, dropping Easter eggs from better written episodes lol

[@johnbrinker2580]

A science nitpick: as Tilly and Ravah were slowly suffocating, surely one of them would have thought to extinguish the several lit torches that would have been burning up the last of the available oxygen.

[@Yattien89]

Wouldn't do any good? The oxygen was being sucked out, not burned up.

[@MrMann0123]

Or they'd have gone out

[@robsquared2]

⁠they'd still have a higher partial pressure of oxygen.

[@cjlamber]

Yes in a scene where they are struggling to breathe there was this torch in the background burning away quite happily.

[@SuprSBG]

Thinking Same thing lol

[@MotherShipMedia]

I loved Book playing Asteroids for his downtime lol

[@gestaltdude]

I was beginning to think I was the only person old enough to recognize what was happening. :P (no offense intended.)

[@MotherShipMedia]

@@gestaltdude none taken lol ... The vector graphics were such a nice touch

[@jmarquiso]

Also Tilly's marathon is also a great callback to season 1 with Tilly and Burnham and Starfleet training.

[@richardvinsen2385]

Season 5 Tilly ain’t running no marathons.

[@ruthsoger621]

​@@richardvinsen2385 is that meant to be a comment on her weight gain?

[@richardvinsen2385]

@@ruthsoger621 Yes, yes it is.

[@icarusandtherabbit]

@@richardvinsen2385well I laughed!

[@DavidHHH99]

@@richardvinsen2385 It's weird when Star Trek fans feel the need to be needlessly publicly cruel to people. What show have you been watching all this time?!?

[@NathanWeeks]

Something I have a problem with is they never recognize that creating the rain towers was still a violation of the Prime Directive. Disguising them as natural formations may have been to reduce the interference, but ultimately they did exactly what the Prime Directive is there for: to prevent influencing the evolution of a species in unpredictable ways, for which worshiping and sacrificing to the towers is a great example. Arguably then, Burnham is just helping to correct a previous violation.

[@Alex_Meyer_1311]

I absolutely agree with you!

[@augustjsb]

It's literally in the first or second scene of the episode.

[@AzraelThanatos]

I'm actually wondering if there even is a Prime Directive violation there at all. It's been centuries on a hell world there, I'm kind of wondering how many worlds that had been relatively advanced by mostly with trade that led to civilization collapsing from a colony there

[@Vipre-]

@@AzraelThanatos It's also worth keeping in mind that Denobulan space travel pre-dates the Federation. Who knows if the Prime Directive even existed when the towers were built. Who knows for that matter what the societal level of that world was 800 years in the past. They may have been active trading partners at the time and so the Prime directive didn't apply.

[@bosslca9630]

@@Vipre- I was under the impression that the weather towers were built in the same general time as the Denobulan who left the clue and the control board did scream isolinear chips which sets it around TNG and later. Though I'm not caught up on the Denobulan/Federation history, so its possible this was done before they joined if they ever did?

[@KyleWitten]

Minor correction for those on the other side of the pond. He specified that it was a legal pad. It looks to be American sized, not A4. American legal pads are 8.5x14 inches - approximately the same width as A4, but about 9cm longer.

[@andywellsglobaldomination]

That what it looked like to me, too.

[@TeeeKay-ig4yg]

I'm pretty sure he explicitly states that it is a legal pad. And being the nitpicky nerd that I am: While A4 is 210x297mm, the legal format is 216x356mm, so it is less than 6cm longer ;-)

[@KyleWitten]

@TeeeKay-ig4yg I was doing the math in my head. The closest North American equivalent to A4 is Letter Size which is 8.5x11. An extra 3 inches at 2.54cm to the inch for Legal size - I rounded up to 3cm to the inch for a quick response.

[@SechristCircus]

I think this is just what discovery needed. This show has spent so long with stories going at warp 9, a nice slower episode was a breath of fresh air (no episode pun intended).

[@jasonwalker9471]

My favourite part of the episode was when Michael started preforming first aide on the woman with the dust inhalation issue, trying to keep her breathing. The standard, almost universally used trope is for the local primitive healer to come over and shoo the more advanced helper away while they try and apply their primitive death cult techniques. This even happened in Star Trek IV, when 20th century doctors tried to stop Bones from fixing Chekhov. In this episode however, the primitive healer runs over looking alarmed and says, "don't stop, you're the only thing keeping her alive". And that makes sense because while they might not know modern research-tweaked CPR techniques, they're not idiots. "Keep them breathing" is pretty basic first aide, and you'd expect anyone giving medical help (even a primitive) to know that. And he did, and it was great! The sound based dust removal technique was interesting. Ultrasonic removal of dust from lungs doesn't seem practical in real life, but it's also not impossible, so that makes it the most creative yet realistic attempt to think up an innovative primitive medical technique I've ever seen. Oh and Sean, Homeopathy is just water. Literally just water. This wasn't just water, and no matter how poorly it might possibly work as a treatment when statistically analyzed it still has a significant real world physical effect (Michael passes out from it, so it's doing something), so it's still way, way better than Homeopathy. Seriously, look up what Homeopathy is. It's such a laugh. It's not even magic, it's just dumb.

[@frankwilhoit]

Once again we see that Kovich does not report to anyone, and although there are undoubtedly people whom he works *with*, we will never (in the Discovery context) see them or learn anything about them. These loose ends are too many and too large and too tempting; they reinforce my conviction that, had there been a 6th season, Kovich would have been the primary antagonist. Failing that, I expect him to turn up in the Section 31 film -- looking the same age as he does in the 3100s. He bought that "genuine C21 legal pad" at Staples, for cash. He probably has many much older items of similar provenance.

[@RevNickBrown]

the final twist... Kovich is "Control" reprogrammed by Pelia

[@jceggbert5]

I wouldn't even be mad ​@@RevNickBrown

[@jmarquiso]

I've come to like him so much, too.

[@RevNickBrown]

@@jceggbert5 me either... haha

[@jmarquiso]

​@@RevNickBrownI had this thought. My favorite Kovich moment is the Stamets/Zora HR meeting, though. And considering Control's relationship to Zora, I hope this doesn't color that if this is the case.

[@Hodor_70]

Hi Seàn and the team, just wanted to thank you all for Ups&Downs. Love it, love it, love it.

[@DanielAWhite27]

My big down was that they titled the whole episode on the culture's Whistlespeak and was barely a plot point.

[@sonicsean34]

I was totally expecting the song the daughter was singing to remember her mum (and inadvertently convince the dad to open the door) woulda been in whistle-speak and we'd get it translated as something profound or a a clue to the next map piece so was surprised nothing came of it

[@qmegamann]

They did the whistlespeak to call people from afar to take place in the ritual, there was no need to do it again once everyone was there.

[@greenrangerx]

Tilly queen of endurance. I love the call back all the way back to Season 1 and all of her endurance training.

[@user-gf7kj5vj3p]

LOL. Enduring eating and being podgy

[@FionaLovecraft]

I got the impression the Jintarra they were looking at trying to explain a sort of spiritual "overview effect", the melding has given him a completely new understanding and appreciation

[@antney7745]

Tilly literally said they could cure the woman with a sonic disruptor or whatever. Which is exactly what the aliens did.

[@MeNoOther]

Nice 32nd century advanced tech; 1. Retinal tri-corders 2. Instant personal transporters 3. Virtual rooms one can just beam in 4. Replicators that place the food right next to you. Saves time to get up from the couch 5. Replicator weapon arm bands

[@jasonwalker9471]

There is lots of advanced tech from the point of view of our 23rd century heroes, most of it is just "old" from the 32nd century point of view. In the first episode of season 3 alone we're told about a large number of propulsion systems that would have been revolutionary in the TNG/Picard time period, never mind in the original Discovery time. They're all old-school tech that's been rendered unusable by The Burn just like high speed warp drive. They require huge amounts of power, and every dense power core they've come up with seems to require dilithium as some kind of power output stabilizer or something like that. My point is that by the time period we're witnessing, they've half forgotten way more than the Federation of the 23rd century knew in total. Even their new "Pathway Drive" doesn't seem to be new tech, it's just an impractical old idea being dusted off now that they once again have access to the necessary resources to make it work in volume. It makes sense to me that we wouldn't see much of that on screen in most episodes. (Plus in the real world CGI and effects budgets limit how much you can show.)

[@MeNoOther]

@jasonwalker9471 we forgotten loads of stuff the Roman Empire invented. Some stuff we are rediscovering. Knowledge does get lost and buried, especially after wars. There seem to be several between 25th century and the Burn

[@user-gf7kj5vj3p]

What about transorting your shit from your bowels so you don't have to go to the toilet?

[@NankitaBR]

18:15 I think that one small change could have changed this moment completely and turned that down into an up. If at that moment when someone's life was at stake Adira got completely "in the zone" and became very assertive, confident and professional (and stopped the second guessing), then that scene would have been great because Rayner could just turn to them and say "See? I knew you had it in you. When the going gets tough you are able to get tough yourself and rise up to the challenge."

[@tlouiseallen9302]

Especially since they are also a symbiont who has centuries of knowledge.

[@milbfan]

I've liked Culber's arc this year. Interesting to see a counselor take stock of their own mental health. I don't think there should be any worry about the Prime Directive. Someone had already altered the civilization's trajectory. Plus with all of this "red directive supersedes all other rules" thing, Burnham should play that card here.

[@veggiet2009]

I really like Culber's arc too, however I feel like we've seen it before. He's come back from the dead, and explored an aspect of spirituality, and he's jumped 900 years in the future and had to face his own mental health issues as a result... It's not exactly new for him, but I love it

[@azhder]

Somebody that wasn't bound by the Prime Directive altering their "civilization's trajectory" is not a carte blanche for Starfleet to do anything they like

[@sonicsean34]

It's been very odd how ep one’s red directive overrides all concerns angle has just been dropped. Everything since ep two has made me wonder what the big deal is with a red directive mission.

[@irsyadnazri]

I also think that his story arc throughout the whole series is why we have this nice closing arc for him. Remember that he was killed and resurrected in S2. That itself would definitely have an effect on his current predicament, rather than its about the ritual he went through. Anyways love his Dr Culber’s series arc. 😊

[@christianotter0528]

I like that they broke the prime directive with full honesty and transparency to the natives and didn’t try to gaslight the natives into thinking that Burnham is one of their gods in order to try to skirt around revealing the Federation & the truth.

[@robsquared2]

Though I'm sad she didn't agree there are no gods.

[@MonCappy]

@@robsquared2 They're not ready to accept that, yet.

[@MaxTheHusky-]

My rule for breaking the Prime Directive: loss of life

[@mythicsagefire]

To be fair: didn’t the scientist technically break the prime directive 800 years ago to keep the planet from being destroyed by the dust storms? So isn’t there a duty of care to maintain that?

[@Thekidfromcalifornia2.0]

@@mythicsagefireyeah but they are not star fleet.

[@fozzyrinker313]

I think it might be effecting Hugh differently due to him coming back from death.

[@kadosho02]

Indeed, the amount of time that transpired, also being brought back within the Spore Drive. The psychological, and meta-physical is on another level to comprehend. Hugh has every right to feel different, weird, and unique with the situation. Possible there could be answers somewhere along the way

[@caseyphillips4321]

Exactly! Also, the zhian’tara had a massive affect on Odo, and I am sure that those experiences changed the way he thought after it was completed.

[@Mad-Bassist]

This to me was one of the more well-written episodes. I appreciated how the universal translator was reacting to the long-distance speech (the whistling) - just one of the ways the writers have been creative in their revealing of this new and unique culture, and the way Burnham and Tilly have to quickly adapt on a Quantum Leap level. Lastly, I see the idea of this episode playing like a bottle show, but does it count when they have so many extras?

[@WilliamAMills]

and new sets. Not really a bottle episode. Self contained sure.

[@MajorMagna]

Regarding "responsibity with/of technology" aspect, I'm actually glad that Discovery's crew probably could have, but DIDN'T repair and reactivate the other four towers, but they did (off screen) show how to maintain them. Perhaps in the future, these people will be able to find and reactivate the other towers themselves.

[@told2stop]

All the other star trek series you do ups and downs for, I align with them almost every one for the most part. But man thats not the case with these Discovery episodes, they seem very gentle over here. To each is own I guess, much love and thank you again for doing these.

[@itsamealex007]

I think the discovery crew will get all but one piece of the puzzle and everyone will have to "work together"

[@boat1280]

Yeah but after multiple scenes of everyone crying and telling each other how much they love each other and how amazing the federation is

[@SC1ENCEP1E]

The second the Book and Moll connection was made, it was pretty much nailed on that the end will be him having a big emotional talk down of her and then teaming up to fight whoever the big bad is

[@trevorthedragon2413]

Working together being promoted in a Star Trek show??? No way

[@DavidHHH99]

@@boat1280 It's weird when so many Star Trek fans lack any amount of basic human empathy and get angry about shows depicting basic human emotions.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@DavidHHH99 Honestly, with Discovery, (at least for me), its the inorganic way the emotions were shown(mostly in seasons 2-3, with some in S4); almost like, instead of presenting them, you can hear the writers/directors telling you YOU WILL FEEL THIS. They have long talks about love and trusting each other, with soft focus, extreme close ups bouncing to everyone intensely staring and often crying... while there are intruders or explosions or other "we have no time...! Except, apparently, to have this heart to heart that everyone's super emotional about." Guys- can we take care of the crisis now, and focus on the emotional resolution after stuff stops exploding. Maybe try less invasive camera technique too...? (And don't get me restarting on the galaxy being broken by a literally *bleeping* crybaby.) After all, we've been able to have emotions and connections in the other Trek shows- but Discovery, at least for me, felt emotionally inauthentic far more often than other Trek shows.

[@chadrickmansfield]

White room looks suspiciously like the room Q brought Picard when he was dying...add in the legal pad and I think Kovich.

[@jehiahmaduro6827]

I was thinking the same thing

[@kadosho02]

Cronenberg as a fourth wall breaking Q would be a treat. Also there was a log from several seasons ago that the Continuum stopped connecting with humanity after a time. So maybe it's possible Kovich, like other Q's can cross time and space in a blink of an eye

[@jasoncarman7801]

It looks like Q & Picard over Picard's dead body in the background. I would think this must be plot related

[@billkerns9258]

The white room needs some black curtains

[@ThatGuyBrian]

@@jasoncarman7801 I believe the bit from Tapestry was photoshopped in as a joke for the review, I just pulled up the episode and it's not in there.

[@windgraceproject]

Halem'no is an anagram for manhole which means this is clearly a reference to the Progenitors being the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[@richardprue4165]

The writers got it spot on with regards the prime directive. It was very cleverly written imho

[@NathanWeeks]

I have been getting strong vibes of the classic Doctor Who the Key to Time story arc with this season.

[@kadosho02]

Oh yes yes, good eye

[@WilliamAMills]

Yes I also made this comment when they got the first piece

[@notlobtrebor6004]

The scientist was the one who broke the Prime Directive. Michael slightly bending it to maintain the fiction is perfectly acceptable. But I have to object to the term Bottle Episode. The way I understand it, a Bottle Episode is one where the crew never leaves the ship. Uses existing sets only. Hence the term 'Ship in a Bottle'. They went and visited a planet, on location, so it can't be a bottle episode.

[@TheSpicer64]

These people were only dying because Denobula violated the Prime Directive. It was Star Fleet's responsibility to set it right (carefully)

[@LarryGarfieldCrell]

Without the Denobulan, they would have died centuries ago. Right or wrong I won't say, but there's no indication the dust storms are Starfleet's fault.

[@DVJ-]

Did Denobula officially join the Federation? I can't find a source confirming that. If not, are they bound by the Federation's Prime Directive?

[@TheSpicer64]

@@DVJ- In 2378 they were a federation world

[@aaronbenderski6871]

It was a pretty good episode, but my problem was the futility of the human sacrifice- It was never explained if it served any purpuse of if there was a proven cause and effect happening. I think they could have easily done something along the lines of - 'a few of the isolinear chips are damaged and they produce roughly the same ammount of energy as the human(oid) body so every time someone steps into the chanber their body's electrical charge/organic material/water is enough to replace the energy of the chips for rebooting the system before the process starts decaying again'. That would have given meaning or at least some reasoning for the sacrifice and all the rituals around it. Instead it's pretty meaningless (which I also get, just think it would have made a better, more noble point)

[@lapiswake6583]

Love the Mercury Stardust t-shirt!

[@stevelarosa5018]

Burnham didn't have to reveal herself in front of Rava's father. She could've beamed in while simultaneously having Discovery beam him out and store him in a pattern buffer. Discovery could then send a team of engineers to figure out how to open the door and save Tilly and Rava. Once they were all done, everyone could've beamed up, and Rava's father could've been beamed back and he wouldn't even know he lost like, 5 minutes of time. Also, they could've just erased their memories of the whole thing.

[@mossiegee4674]

Pretty certain the fact the Denobleans (pardon the spelling) made the original decision to interfere with weather control and it was required to maintain that system call it a bottle of distilled water episode 👍🤓

[@MrARock001]

Oh shit, another wild theory: The reason the doctor feels weirdly spiritual since joining with the Trill is that he can subconsciously remember what the Trill remembered, and the Trill remembered successfully summoning the Progenitors, so now the doctor is feeling the inner peace and connectedness that the Trill experienced when meeting them and presumably learning the meaning of life. The final twist will be that the sixth scientist didn't die, but got used as a vessel for communicating with the Progenitors and they'll be the person at the end that Discovery will find!

[@TheMikemedia]

A very minor bit of cultural history... I am a very senior citizen and I remember being chastised both at home and in school for speaking contractions. They were the emojis of the time.

[@mctanuki]

i can recall old folk bein like "aint aint a word dummy!" at me all the time when i was little, can verify

[@Cdr2002]

Thank you Sean for your respect for Puerto Rican dishes

[@bazbloodwolf]

I've always loved when the Prime Directive is treated with nuance. It's one of those rules that looks good on a PAAD but is a lot more complicated in practice. There are no easy answers here. It's moral obligation vs moral obligation, but also hearkens back to if you have the means to help (even clandestinely) and don't is one doing wrong by inaction or is one doing right by letting "nature take its course"

[@crazymammoth]

the Infinity Room uses a Quantum entangled Particle to allow entry into the space from anywhere in the Galaxy thats what that little infinity prop is

[@danclanton9693]

Was it just me or did anyone else notice the "Whistlespeak" was used in the very beginning of the episode, then never referenced again? I think if you're going to name an episode after something like that you should expand on it a bit. Eh, maybe it was just me.

[@jmarquiso]

They used it to understand whistles early in the episode and ended the episode with it. Song was used to convince the father. It's about communication and connection despite literal barriers.

[@qmegamann]

They did the whistlespeak to call people from afar to take place in the ritual, there was no need to do it again once everyone was there.

[@DanielSolis]

My favorite bit: Whistling language over mountainous terrain is a real thing. It's a UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage.

[@republicandan]

So far this season has exceeded my expectations. My only dislike is that this puzzle has been around for eons and Discovery solves it in a couple of weeks. I would have enjoyed showing some time jumps and following more ships working together.

[@Jagerbomberman]

If the crew of discovery didn't escape from the time bug time loop Mol and Lok would have solved the clues just as easily. Not sure how though.

[@Sephiroth144]

Counterpoint; the puzzle was already solved, then rehidden by the scientists; Discovery is solving the Scientists' Puzzles- the scientists solved the Preservers puzzle (over years if not longer).

[@republicandan]

@@Sephiroth144 so the scientists puzzle has been around for 800 years and Disco will solve it in 2 months?

[@Sephiroth144]

@@republicandan But no one was trying to solve it- remember, the scientists hid the Preserver tech, and while they left a puzzle behind, they didn't tell anyone there was a puzzle in the first place.

[@Jordanpgates1]

Don't you think that it is a little bit unrealistic to believe that Tilly could win a foot race up a mountain

[@bobingabout]

17:00 I agree with you on this. when I was watching it, I was saying in my mind "I get you're trying to help, but lives are on the line, get someone more qualified, and more familiar with 800 year old technology in on this!". Also, another minor critique, you can tell the American perspective on this, that everyone needs to spend months in therapy to get over anything, vs the UK perspective of "Man up, and just get over it already!"

[@Sephiroth144]

That "American" perspective is not remotely universal; large parts of the US have the same "You're STILL crying over your mom dying- it's been over a week" mind set.

[@bobingabout]

@@Sephiroth144 I didn't mean to imply that all Americans think that way, or even Citizens of the USA. I just meant that the concept of going to therapy for every little thing is a uniquely American thing. Most of the rest of the world don't do it.

[@QBCPerdition]

Regarding the primitive lack of contractions, I tend to assume this is an artifact of the universal translator. Remember, these people are not actually speaking English, and while the UT does a great job of changing their speech into Fed Standard (English) their language may not have contractions, or may not contract at the same places, and so forcing "Hey Dad how're ya doin'?" Into a sentence that may be more formal, or for which there is no way to completely get the nuance, seems like it might be expecting too much from the magic translator. As for the question of the Prime Directive. At first, I wondered why Burnham had to beam into the antechamber where Rahva's dad was. They're most if the way up a huge spire/tower. Surely there are stairs or a lift of some sort, maybe a hallway just out of sight where she could have beamed. As for the rest of the reveal, my first thought was to play along, Tilly could have said she was communing with the gods when Rahva asked who she was talking to. Burnham could have gone with the ides that she was one of the gods when Rahva's dad jumps to that conclusion. I understand the risk of providing proof of gods existing, but they are doing so only to two people, not the entire society, and they could provide a justification for getting rid of the human sacrificing. They leave and does the society really change? Not really. So I definitely thought they could have worked around the PD and still accomplished the same outcome. But then I realized, the denobulan scientist already broke the Prime dorective. Sure, no one saw them do magical science, but it still dramatically altered their society. Not only by saving them from a natural destruction, but also by influencing their religious beliefs. We have no idea what their religion was like before, but presumably it didn't revolve around The High Summit. So, if we accept that the Prime Directive was already broken, then the issue becomes largely moot.

[@veggiet2009]

I loved this episode! With it's classic trekky examination of science vs religion, and also spirituality. Breaking the prime directive is always fun, and this is definitely a planet that i could see getting a revisit

[@RevNickBrown]

I absolutely loved the progression of spirituality and interaction with science, and how it remains multiple and open

[@EliBlu]

love and kindness back at you ! thank you for another awesome show

[@Programmerman]

My friend turned to me midway through and asked "what sort of Landru bull is going on on this planet?" I think there's a reasonable argument that the Denobulans installing the weather control towers is going to be the cover Burnham needs prime directive wise (they've already been influenced beyond repair) and they're 800 years overdue for some Cerritos visits to remind them how to maintain these mountains. Legit question they didn't resolve: should the federation fix the other four towers? 🤔

[@tlouiseallen9302]

I thought they should have. Since the civilization has already been messed with by Denobulans.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@tlouiseallen9302 But was it done with permission- if not, wouldn't minimizing contact still be the way to go (Prime Directive-wise), since apparently the society didn't change (until the towers stopped working- and I'mma guess the remains of the Federation had bigger issues by then)

[@blackwolfnews1722]

Should have done it before they left, just in case the one working one went down. And if there are not tunnels, or some sort of protected space to travel between them, they should have built it, or scheduled a immediate visit from the new Cerritos to built them.

[@kerkseijo]

1st, proud Puertorrican. 2nd. this is the first time that I feel that they were talking my language. I felt represented. But at the end they show they presented that mofongo and had cravings, but with camarones (shrimp). I wonder who made that dish in Canada where they filmed that show. Glad the flavor and culture lives on in the 32nd century.....

[@jamesharrold5239]

Not Hispanic but I always thought that they are most underrepresented group in Star Trek.

[@cg1704]

The infinity room = spare room in Janet's void that she's renting out.

[@Dipstikk]

"Not an android."

[@eugenewilson1908]

The Sisko in the background is hilarious!

[@Rendosian]

The Photoshop images of the Infiniti room absolutely sent me! More comedy like this, please.

[@Tuskin38]

the writers seem to have completely forgotten that Adira has a symbiote

[@sonicsean34]

But that would run the risk of them having something unique to their character to explore besides their relationship with Grey (which is also gone now) so we can't have that sadly. I've been a little disappointed with how little Adira has been used after their big push when they were introduced. Now they are just a replacement for Tilly but without all the foundation s1 gave Tilly. I also hate they grouped all the LGBT characters together and mostly shunted them to the side with only occasional lip service that Adira, Culber, Grey, and Stamets are family. We barely see them get to be ppl and interact and I wish we did.

[@KurtLang-tt4kv]

Maybe they backed off a bit for some of us ‘non-believers’ of endless pronouns and the myriad of LGBQ+ that we get bombarded with endlessly. How many times did Grey cringe smile at Adira on the recent Trill trip? Sheesh

[@Tuskin38]

@@KurtLang-tt4kv please kindly go away.

[@richardvinsen2385]

@@sonicsean34Barely interact? Culber and Stamets brush their teeth together every few episodes. Isn’t that enough to show a relationship? (Yes, I’m being sarcastic)

[@sonicsean34]

@@richardvinsen2385 in season one lol (which was the first example they were a couple despite them having had 3-4 scenes together already. I knew they were together from interviews so was annoyed it was being hidden) I wish they had more scenes to give reality to them. Too much of their time is surface level.

[@DrakeAurum]

Did anyone else think that Stammets, having failed to find any other leads, was going to get desperate enough to try drinking the vial of water?

[@Keither754]

That would have been brilliant 😂

[@tlouiseallen9302]

I did 🤷😉

[@dermotcanniffe9941]

I found the episode very reminiscent of Who Watches The Watchers - with Burnham's discussion at the end mirroring that of Picard.

[@Zeis]

I really quite liked this episode, it's the only one this season that actually felt like a Star Trek episode to me.

[@pupmorningstar]

Yes we have seen the Zhian'tara before but the difference here is that they are also looking for the progenitor tech. Dr. Culber has mentioned multiple times that they are searching for the technology that made them. Couple that with his abuela and her spiritual beliefs that he has also talked about the experiences after his Zhian'tara I don't believe are side effects of the procedure. I believe that having another consciousness inside of him, coupled with the search for their gods if you will has caused his mind to start questioning his strict science above all else mindset.

[@HighSierra1500]

I agree with this and I believe I can relate. Back in 2017 I attended a guided meditation and during the meditation a friend who had committed suicide three years earlier came to me and told me he did not blame me for what happened. Consciously, I didn't feel that I blamed myself for my friend's choice to take his own life, but it would seem that subconsciously I did. I cried through the experience, but came away with a greater connection. So, to me, Dr. Culber's questioning of what is real or what is he capable of is not far from the mark. He had a profound experience during Zhian'tara and is trying to understand it.

[@jackmorris7755]

I'd like to pose to Sean a theory as to why the "primitive" civilizations use formal sounding language in Star Trek (can't speak to Stargate on this one beyond the trope) - The Starfleet characters, and by extension the audience, are hearing these people speak through the universal translator. The UT likely won't be able to differentiate between formal and informal language and specifically cultural concepts. It sounds formal because the UT will use "proper" vocabulary, grammar, and syntax to convey the words and phrases being translated. Say 'Hot Rod,' and the UT will take that and translate it to either "warm cylinder" or "fast ground vehicle."

[@Lumibear.]

This entire episode reminded me of that VOY episode where Janeway tries to speed run through a ritual of self awareness to save Kes.

[@GiancarloPaniccia]

Infinity room visual gags. Bravo.

[@stephon7577]

So, Burnam has and uses this new magic special eye to scan and x-ray stuff the whole episode, and when Tilly in locked in the room about to die, Burnam doesn't think to scan the room for a level to open the door. The level was literally UNDER THE RUG!!

[@blackwolfnews1722]

...the titanium rug! LoL

[@generalilbis]

Burnham's academic specialty is xeno-anthropology, so like with the Denobulan-sourced weather control tower technology, she knows not to just pop in and start messing around with stuff she doesn't understand. Maybe she saw the failsafe under the floor and didn't know if there was more to the shutdown process than just lifting and turning it?

[@gamefreak3072]

You saying "whatever the 32nd centery version of the ceritos is" made me imagine a califonia class but the nacels and saucer aren't linked. Its the same frame. Just the primary and secondary hull are separated like the floating nacels. it just floats through space awkward as ever

[@Cdr2002]

Could probably make it really modular, like a Starfleet take on what Book’s ship can do

[@jesseszymcik3026]

It was nice that they bothered to mention violating the Prime Directive. Raynor already told us that he had free rein on this mission. And, once he’s been demoted and become Burnham’s first officer, i am now calling him not-Spock.

[@doorofnight87]

I like that they indicated how the 'sound cure' worked shortly before with Tilly and Burnham talking about how they would use sonic waves to clear the dust.

[@veggiet2009]

I don't know if Burnham broke the prime directive as much as Picard did in "who watches the watchers" if you think about it the episodes are quite similar, but Picard only revealed himself to clean up a mess that the federation made and to save his officers. But in this episode the denobulans had already inserted themselves into the history of the people, altering the natural development of their society, Burnham's actions were to save Tilly, but also it enabled her to continue the work allowing the species to flourish, the denobulans broke the directive 1st, Discovery just enabled it to continue

[@ashleywilliams1060]

Kirk and Spock in the Kelvin timeline did far worse in breaking the Prime Directive in Into Darkness.

[@ArchieOnEarth]

Didn’t the Denobulans already break the prime directive putting the rain towers there in the first place, and subsequently failing to maintain them? I feel like there is a loophole here for Burnham's decision. Also, would a Red Directive overrule the Prime Directive?

[@johncattley5919]

This one really worked for me. The even numbered episodes are strong this season. And in terms of pacing the big mystery--I'm OK with stops along the way as long as they're this good.

[@damienrosario2471]

That white room looks like the same place that Sisko has been to in that episode where he's tethered to Jake in time.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

I am gonna take issue with the homeopathic medicine comment. Remember what Tilly said. Starfleet tech could have used a sonic percussion wave to shake the dust loose. The bowls making noise was exactly that. Sound waves. No different than a singer breaking a glass. It was a low tech version of the same treatment. Not sham stuff that happened to work.

[@dellytancyl524]

Jessi Gender speculates that Dr. Kovich might be the future men from Enterprise and now I can't stop thinking about it.

[@Cdr2002]

I think he’s a 32nd century Temporal Investigations guy keeping busy after the Accords

[@frickmystr]

I am such a Tilly fan, so this was one of my favs :)

[@robbello6207]

I love the little cut in's in the back ground of the infinity room that you guys put in! lol

[@FredandGeorge]

As far as the stilted way more "primitive" Star Trek species tend to talk: totally a trope, and one we have nostalgic affection for. But also -- could you suggest that maybe a language with which the Universal Translator has less familiarity would be translated in a less colloquial way? (Obviously that's not an explanation that holds up under a lot of close examination, but maybe just a notion that can keep this trope from interfering with our enjoyment of or immersion in the fiction.)

[@ZenMasterJeff]

The bigger prime directive violation that gets glossed was the creation of the tower in the first place. As being the only source of water on the entire planet, it's no surprise it became the cornerstone of their religion and civilization. To me, Burnham's intervention didn't really matter as the cultural contamination already occurred as the sacrificial rites are a direct result of the technology failing. There might have been a moral issue to repair the tower or not, potentially let the civilization resume it's natural course could of been a great subplot for this episode, but goes entirely unaddressed this episode. *I also point out that it isn't lost on me that one of the 5 scientists of the 24th century who hid the progenitor tech because they knew they weren't ready to play god just demonstrated how correct of an assessment that was about themselves with this episode. I'm also not quite convinced Burnham, a product of the 23rd century has learned that lesson yet either.

[@trekker683]

I agree. But it begs another question. How did a race of humanoids not to mention plant life evolve on a planet with little to no natural rain and constant dirt storms. Unless they were somehow placed on that planet after the towers were built. If they were, the argument could be made that the prime directive doesn't apply.

[@tlouiseallen9302]

@@trekker683they say the Denobuns interfered for a specific reason that I would have to go back and watch the episode to make out.

[@Tim.Stotelmeyer]

@@trekker683 Some global catastrophe like global warming in the distant past could be the cause. Or possibly some sand trout encapsulated most the water to prep the planet into hosting giant drug producing worms.

[@AzraelThanatos]

@@trekker683I kind of think that it was already a colony at the time...cue the burn and inability to maintain things for who knows how long, planets civilization twilights and who knows how the stuff actually works while the people get stuck trying to survive in the ruins of their old civilization. For all we know, when the towers were built, the place was even a Federation Colony that this is just restoring contact with...think of it as something somewhat like the Pern novels if they'd re-establish contact with their interstellar government as of the later parts of the series except this is a darker situation

[@NickNobody161]

It is not just the Trill thing for the doctor. Hey said it in a past episode. It is his experience of being dead and the journey to the "creators" too.

[@bemasaberwyn55]

"I'm resourceful " 😂😂 Kovich told us himself

[@KellMG96]

Idk the Zhian'tara seemed to effect Odo, and Curzon

[@Vipre-]

I think the thing being missed is it has nothing physically to do with the Zhian'tara. His death and resurrection, his time in the spore realm, and his experience as "an observer" during the Zhian'tara all together have just opened his mind to a new perspective and he's struggling with understanding what exactly that means.

[@MrMann0123]

In some ways it felt like an anti TOS episode. Roddenberry hated relgion and put it down in the stories. Kirk would have posed as a God then torn down their system, this was spiritual and considered, and tolerant... and Sean has just said all that now, lol.

[@AzraelThanatos]

Yeah, felt a lot like the old B5 episode with the mindwiped killer turned monk and all of that.

[@richNfit4life]

When I saw the hexagonal shape generated by the tower on Helem’no, I thought of Jupiter, a planet in our very own solar system, with a hexagonal pattern in its atmosphere. Did the Denobulan Dr. Kreel leave a weather machine at the northern pole of Jupiter?🤔. And when it starts to fail, will he return to fix it? Or will that be our job when we final develop interplanetary travel and explore all the planets in person?

[@Allison-ij9ye]

I love these videos. I thought this episode was a throwback to the original series.

[@argoniastation]

The argument COULD be made that the Prime Directive had already been when the scientist put the thing there in the first place...

[@Vipre-]

Depends on whether Denobula was part of the federation at that point. If the tower was created before Denobula joined the Federation, or even before the creation of the Federation then the Prime Directive absolutely would apply. It's sad to see the idiotic TNG version still being used though.

[@EricOehler01]

Especially since the people literally worshipped the technology, there’s definitely the Landru argument to be made.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@Vipre- Denobula would've been, yes; that said, doesn't mean that particular scientist was working for Starfleet/the Federation when they did it. (Could've been one of those outpost scientists going rogue...) That said, while they interfered with the natural progession (or extinction) of the people, it doesn't seem to have affected the society beyond their surviving, (i.e., the Gods weren't demanding sacrifice or the like). Until the other towers malfunctioned, there was probably no real affect on their development- and even then, the culture shifted without outside influence. (I feel the Denobulan's action was analogous to destroying an asteroid that would KT a pre-space civ; yes, they made a change, but they didn't go down and affect the culture, just kept it from extinctifying.) In other words, it extended the society (technically a violation) but didn't effect a chance on the society, save in extending its existence; i.e., Burnham's actions would, on the other hand, did breaking the Prime Directive.

[@sergioaccioly5219]

Don't say that Michael pulled a Kirk. Judging by Kirk's speeches in TOS, he'd elect to respect the Prime Directive at the cost of a friend, if it came to it. He wouldn't for his entire crew, but that's a matter of scale. He did choose to sacrifice crewmembers to uphold his duties. Wolf in the Fold, Immunity Sindrome, Rwturn to Tomorrow cometo mind. And, of course, in Galileo 7 he chose to sacrifice, Spock, McCoy and Scotty in one go, when push came to shove. Plotarmos stopped a grim result in all those cases, but that doesn't take away from his commitment. He did say, often, that starfleet personnel were sworn to uphold it, even at the cost of their own lives.

[@Cdr2002]

He also blew up Vaal and left the people of the planet from the Apple completely directionless because he didn’t think they should be living that way

[@sergioaccioly5219]

@@Cdr2002 Believe or not I never watched that episode, but from what I gathered, thatwas a stagnant society. If you posit that the PD is to protect thegrowth of a society, it shouldn't apply to the ones stagnant. And this still doesn't take away my point - if forced to choose between one (or a few - not many) of his men and his orders (including standing orders like the PD), he'll follow his orders.

[@HermanVonPetri]

About halfway through this episode I found myself realizing that I was actually really enjoying it. Not only was every scene absolutely gorgeous, but the life-or-death intensity and action of previous Discovery was mostly absent. Yes, there was purpose but it wasn't as overwrought in this one as it usually is. I found myself relaxed, calmed, even pleased to be watching a little comfort TV. I've been missing that feeling.

[@SweetSunSh9]

I love the Tshirt!!!

[@thisaintjimbeam]

The Prime Directive is meant to Starfleet's most sacred rule and if Reiner lost his Captaincy over a decision that put a village under threat, Burnham should lose the Captaincy over this just to be consistant. Having said that, every Captain in Starfleet has broken the Prime Directive at some point in their career and from a stortytelling perspective you can bet there won't even be an enquiry like their was for Reiner. Also when Tilly and that guys daughter are locked in the room with the fire burning was anyone else yelling at the TV put it out! as fire sucks up any remaining oxygen in the room!

[@forrestpenrod2294]

This society only exists because the Denobulans already broke the Prime Directive.

[@Cdr2002]

Burnham got punished for breaking a rule once at the beginning of the series and again in season 3 when Saru busted her back down to Science Officer. I think they wanted to avoid a repeat beat

[@SpencerN.C.]

Sean, I hate to say this, but I have to give a down to your calling the treatment for the dust "homeopathic", and your describing it as "choking" her. I'm not a doctor but I have some medical training, and what they did was plausible, actual, medical science. It seemed to me that the dust had accumulated in her lungs, not her throat. She was suffocating as her lungs were full of dust which kept them from absorbing oxygen. Human (and presumably alien lungs) often can't cough up that sort of heavy and/or compacted mass. What we'd do in the real-world is try to loosen and break-up the mass so that the body can cough up the mass. This can be done with medication in some cases, but one other common method is to hit or vibrate the chest, sometimes using ultrasound, to vibrate the mass to loosen it and break it up, and what we saw on screen looked VERY much like a version of that: using the soundwaves from the bowls to loosen the compacted dust so her natural coughing reflex could bring it up and clear her lungs.

[@tlouiseallen9302]

I had pneumonia a lot as a child and percussion was part of my therapy.

[@SpencerN.C.]

@@tlouiseallen9302 I've had pneumonia several times, starting from infancy with the most recent being a few years ago (in my 40's). I've never had percussion therapy, but it's been brought up more than once, and I learned more about it in some medical-adjacent work I did years ago. I'm glad it helped you!

[@CVG209CA]

My thoughts are the Denolulians maintained the weather towers until the burn. They couldn’t get there anymore and all the losses from the burn, this planet got forgotten about.

[@jpwphoenix1701]

I had wondered if the retinal tricorders could potentially be based on Borg tech, as they obviously used to be able to scan and get info from stuff through their ocular implants. An additional possibility is a further-advanced version of the ocular implants Geordi had from “First Contact” onwards. An additional Up would be how the scene with Michael and Tilly running together is a great callback to them jogging through Discovery’s corridors in Season 1 (introducing the famous “Disco” t-shirts!). Also, gotta love Tilly trying to keep going by jogging circles around Michael!😂👏

[@MiqelDotCom]

My personal tally was: 004 UP & 697 DOWN So glad this series is almost over, lol.

[@richardvinsen2385]

The only way Tilly beats Michael up a mountain is if there’s a pizza waiting for the winner.

[@firefly927]

"you're introducing something to be picked up by another writer in another show. Kinda sounds like you're doing 'eh not my problem. You deal with it.'" --- Reminds me so much of the writing issues CC left behind in Doctor Who.

[@sebastianpiriz]

it's an episode that made all the right questions, I like that in Star Trek. I feel they had been saving this script for ages and they were able to make it work for this season's story.

[@SpellboundTutor]

I definitely appreciate the messaging of science and spirituality being additive and supplemental to the other, rather than subtractive or as a replacement. Because I think there is a lot of substantive value in spirituality (not necessarily any one religion or any religion) in a way that uplifts scientific thought, and I definitely think scientific reason can have value in attempting to interpret or appreciate spirituality, and breaking those barriers down is extremely important! There was a point in my own life where I was fully on board with the "Religion is stupid" train. But as I've learned more and more about how enriching spirituality is in forms of meditative exercises, expressing gratitude, and noticing and acknowledging things that I would often take for granted, the only thing stupid about religion is when people use religion as a weapon. But that's no different than anyone using science as a weapon.

[@GooseGonnaGoose]

Why was “rule 34” your first thought when thinking of a rule number?? 🤣😂

[@rhkean]

💜💜💜 I absolutely LOVE your shirt! 💜💜💜

[@BobCrosley]

There’s one part of the Prime Directive that never quite made sense to me. I totally get that you can’t interact with the culture and change it. But I don’t see the point of it being against the Prime Directive that you can’t stop some celestial event that’s going to wipe them out. Pike with the comet. Kirk stopping the volcano in Into Darkness, etc. Stopping a space rock from smashing them all doesn’t contaminate the culture or change their development. They were going to die, and now they’re not. The idea that they were “meant to die” is a little more fate-focused than Star Trek should be.