Calvinism and Catholicism (w/ Redeemed Zoomer)

[@TheCounselofTrent]

I'm glad RZ came on and thank you all for being patient with the video mishap we had. I was so bummed when my connecting dock broke right before the interview (hence why I used my laptop camera). But I'd much rather have a solid interview with good audio with less than ideal video than good video and less than ideal audio.

[@igorlopes7589]

Please interview Classical Theist, he deserves more recognition 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@lt3746]

Trent, have you ever heard of or seen videos by the channel Abolitionist Rising? I’d be curious to here your thoughts on what they do/advocate for.

[@Jerome616]

A wise choice

[@AudChaldean]

Your doing amazing as always Trent 🙏

[@SaintlySaavy]

As a Catholic, I want to extend my heartfelt appreciation for your contributions, Trent. Engaging in this dialogue has been an enlightening experience, teaching me to navigate discussions with individuals from varied Christian backgrounds with both grace and charity. Although I recognize that not everyone may demonstrate the same level of professionalism and kindness as RZ, I am nevertheless thankful for this constructive exchange. Cheers to you, gentlemen.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Thanks for having me on the show! I think it was very informative and productive. God bless!

[@nsmith5636]

Bro, your video on why boys and men are struggling today really helped my freshman little brother last night. -Amen

[@garlottos]

Keep growing your beard, make Kyle jealous

[@toluwalasearinola2908]

God bless you ❤️

[@ArchAngelOfficialCh]

I love your videos brother. You’re on a fantastic path and I wish you the best in your efforts. Amen brother.

[@Playsitloud1]

I am so glad you talked to Trent. I enjoy much of your content so thank you for being open.

[@ConvertingCatholic]

Mom is Mormon and my Dad is Non Denom. I was heavily involved in both churches. Devout even... Im Now in RCIA converting to Catholicism . Viva Cristo Rey!

[@TheCounselofTrent]

We will continue praying for you! -Vanessa

[@Renewed_Catholic]

God bless! I’ll pray for you

[@liberatewethepeople9121]

God bless you on your journey & welcome home ❤️🙏🏼

[@Gio-ce8ob]

Amen! Welcome home

[@MasterofLightning]

Zoomer's content got me into theology in general. I'm Catholic and I've found his stuff extremely helpful for my own faith. Thank you and God bless, Zoomer!

[@Jesus_loves_you2004]

Same here lol.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

Recommend looking at the Augustine Institute in Denver if you want to dive deeper into theology.

[@humanperson6675]

SAME

[@Harbinger290]

@@TruthHasSpoken Man’s greatest enemy is ignorance. If I ask 1000 people what does it mean to seek God’s righteousness, I may find 2 or 3 that know the truth. If I ask this same question in a catholic forum no one knows. Romans 10:3 (KJV) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

[@aleckim9337]

same, but comming from a lutheran. Zoomer is a great way to intruduce us this topics

[@manueldejesusrojassandi3919]

We NEED Trent building a church in Minecraft.

[@Jesus_loves_you2004]

Yes 😂😂😂

[@ChubbyPug12]

Haha that would be a real colab

[@kynesilagan2676]

I will commission my kids to build section(s) of it. Lolz

[@geochonker9052]

It would be hilarious if he built it on Zoomer's server and it became the capitol of catholic city lol

[@ToxicPea]

Absolutely

[@Erick_Ybarra]

Thanks for the shout out, Trent! Very kind

[@gnomeresearch1666]

Thank you for all you do!

[@ghostfacekrueger]

Big Erick, happy for you to get the recognition you deserve on a large platform like Trent’s!

[@Swo37]

You deserve much bigger publicity than you have! Keep up the great work!

[@shanesolar3924]

Love you and your work Erick! You’ve really helped my conversion along! I’ll see you in the EC chat 😉

[@michaelthrone]

Indeed as Trent conceded, Catholics can and some do abuse various Catholic beliefs. However, another abuse is to de-emphasize the absolute necessity of works along with faith for salvation by failing to provide a more full throated defense of St. James' "faith without works is dead," and instead water it down a bit by saying that Catholics get the notion of works from James wrong, etc. Thankfully, a much, much better Catholic apologist in this regard is the highly entertaining Ferris Murdoch who in his videos points out the serious flaws in Protestant interpretations, how they unjustly add words to the bible to make false claims, and how they also downplay and basically dismiss what St. James clearly teaches. Start with Ferris' short KZbin video on "Works and Works of the Law" at kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIaypJaPqdGKmdU ..and also check out his devastating critique of Allie Beth Stuckey in his review of a debate between Stuckey and George Farmer at kzbin.info/www/bejne/pnq7mWqLpr5-prM Ferris has many other KZbin videos spread out over the past 5 years or so that you may also be interested in because he takes on many of the leading Protestant apologists, not in a face-to-face format, but by presenting them setting forth their positions in their videos, and then clearly demonstrating their errors. His superb defense of the Catholic Faith is done without watering any of it down to be extra nice to opponents, yet he treats them all with proper respect. One other thing I highly recommend, especially to sincere Catholics, is a fairly recent book by Crisis Magazine editor Eric Sammons entitled "Deadly Indifference: How the Church Lost Her Mission and How We Can Reclaim It." I suspect that super nice guy Trent might find fellow convert Sammon's book and his exclusivist position unnecessarily condemnatory of people outside the Church, but then again, Eric more than likely finds Trent to be too accommodating and not helping those outside the Church as much as he could. Judge for yourselves which overall position and approach you favor most by also giving Sammons' book a thoughtful read to compare it with Trent's work.

[@davidestate]

I was born and Baptized a Catholic but after my young days in the church, I left the church to live my own story. My story was not good, hard and very bad but I lived it. I was approached by Baptist minister at one of my friend's home. I went to the church a few times, like the music and singing but felt empty. Later a Jehovah's Witness knocked my my home door and I answered. I invited them in and we spoke for some time, well actually they spoke most of the time. They invited me to their Kingdom Hall but I don't know, it looked more like a community center and not a place in which God would dwell.. so I didn't stay there. 25 years later, when my life was at my ends, I tried to end my life. I didn't die that day but I had 3 days to really think about my life. When I got out, I was just talking by the church I went to as child. It was Sunday so I walked into it during morning mass. It was like God was speaking to me, like the mass all the words were for me, it was like my soul woke up and the tears came down my eyes.. the Lord God, spoke to me and I stay in the Catholic Church of my youth. I ended going to the Holy Land and walking the path of Jesus, while I was there, I could feel Jesus, it was like he was walking with me. I hard this burning feeling inside, something today I wish so many people could feel. God spoke to me in my dreams, answered my prays and opened my eyes to another world... a world of confused Christians, Islam and God haters... I started my journey to be my Church's only Apologetic... were I help many Catholics and any non-Catholics, do tours of the Church and even teach Catholicism to my Catholic family. I couldn't be more happier, something I have never felt, or enjoyed without God my Father in Heaven. Thanks Trent for doing all you have done for our Church.

[@suzihixon3998]

❤

[@antoniosanjurjo8442]

God bless you and so happy that you are home.

[@susand3668]

Welcome home!

[@soldierofchrist1096]

Praise and blessings to God Most High for what he has done for you!

[@therealong]

A vivid explicandum in simple terms of God being in all things, "by essence, presence, and power", and yet, in His chosen discoverable ways.

[@ilovechrist914]

Orthodox christian here but love these chats both so chilled and humble Fruitful conversation

[@JdSpoof]

I pray everyone in the body of Christ can have these conversations one day

[@kevinclass2010]

As somebody raised protestant, I have a deep respect for the hesychast tradition.

[@GratiaPrima_]

I’m so, so glad Catholics are starting to talk to Calvinists more. Good stuff. I converted from Reformed Baptist.

[@MarvelGamer2023]

Welcome home brother. Former independent Baptist here

[@GratiaPrima_]

@@MarvelGamer2023I’m a “sister” 😊. Thank you so much, and back at ya! Best decision ever.

[@Lerian_V]

​@@MarvelGamer2023Misgendering a lady. You're going to hell brother.

[@dantelepanto]

Glad you are home.

[@EricAlHarb]

You’re not home until you’ve considered Orthodoxy.

[@jeffreperezhernandez9006]

As someone who left Protestantism to embrace Catholicism, there needs to be more ecumenical dialogue to display Christ likeness. This was awesome! Thank you Trent Horn for being a perfect example of being Christ like! 😊🙏

[@G-ew9hv]

How do you perceive the path to eternal life as a Catholic Church member? How do you receive salvation? What’s the steps you take?

[@t.d6379]

​@@G-ew9hv GRACE < FAITH < LOVE It's simple.

[@G-ew9hv]

@@t.d6379 faith in what?

[@t.d6379]

@@G-ew9hv Faith in our Lord and Saviour, Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

[@G-ew9hv]

@@t.d6379 just faith in God and Jesus. What about it specifically. Just believe? Believe what? Are you a Catholic?

[@Bxtcxt1865]

Redeemed Zommer will be a Catholic by the end of the decade. 🙏🏻✝️ As Chesterton said It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment a man ceases to pull against it he feels a tug towards it. The moment he ceases to shout it down he begins to listen to it with pleasure. The moment he tries to be fair to it he begins to be fond of it.

[@G-ew9hv]

The moment one understands the true Gospel of Christ is the day he walks away!

[@roddumlauf9241]

If I had to bet, I'd say that Redeemed Zoomer will be more persuaded by his debates with Jay Dyer (Orthodox) and admit that Orthodoxy wins. But for me, I was once an Evangelical but am now a Franciscan English Catholic. ( Not Roman)

[@G-ew9hv]

@@roddumlauf9241 nice to hear from you. What would be your take on the gospel of your salvation?

[@LuisEstebanGomezAlduncin]

I’ve been saying the same thing for a while

[@G-ew9hv]

Everyone knows something isn’t quite right with the RCC but they continue on their ignorance and lean upon man’s wisdom and direction!?’

[@normanreategui9348]

As a Protestant desiring to learn more about the Roman Catholic faith, I absolutely loved this conversation. Thank you to both!

[@mcgulliksen2021]

Go for it!

[@richlopez5896]

I was an Evangelical who's been Byzantine Catholic since 2004. St. Cyprian, bishop of Carthage “The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18-19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he should desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251] “There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering” (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253] St. Augustine, bishop of Hippo “We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is catholic and which is called catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard” (The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]

[@thirdparsonage]

Great conversation! I appreciate the collegiality! As a former Protestant turned Catholic, it almost makes me cry sometimes when I see Catholics and Protestants in loving dialogue wishing each other well!

[@pavelcrestin1]

RC theology is inconsistent : kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@hismajesty6272]

I’m Protestant and trying to learn more about Catholicism. This video helped a lot.

[@MarvelGamer2023]

Great! May the Holy Spirit guide you to the one true Church

[@larrylim3571]

I believe the source of the Canonized Scripture is the first step of the discussion because "authority" is important too resolve or no one will be correct/sensible. There are too much Bibles to choose... So which is the true Bible? This topic has to be resolved before talking about which scriptures to quote and how to interpret it.

[@juilianbautista4067]

@@MarvelGamer2023 yes, may the Holy Spirit guide His true flock away from Romanist papistry and falsehood. It's interesting because the fathers say there is no salvation outside the Church but the allegedly infallible Romanist pronouncements say Muslims can be saved because they also worship the one true God, displaying an obvious lack of understanding of the theology of Islam. No true Church would fall into such error.

[@MarvelGamer2023]

@@juilianbautista4067 Muslims worship the one true God. That's obvious. Read Romans 1 and Acts 17. Even the Greeks worshipped the one true God amidst their pagan pantheons. Protestants worship the one true God too. The only difference is that Protestants, Muslims, Jews and all other heretics and heathens who profess monotheism don't know the true nature of the one true God as He revealed Himself to the Holy Catholic Church in Scripture and Tradition.

[@babytronsson]

@@MarvelGamer2023Explain how protestants are heretics and do not know the true nature of God, as well as how he revealed himself to a church that was not around during his time.

[@lhgihs]

Thank God for this kid. Before I converted to the Catholic faith, I struggled immensely with so-called "New Calvinists." I'm very glad this young man is restoring an understanding of the "Calvinist tradition" that, at the very least, appears to have a much better appreciation of scholastic theology and philosophy. And thank you, Trent, for doing what you do.

[@theeternalslayer]

It's menachaein gnosticism.

[@BenjaminAnderson21]

​@@theeternalslayer Found the FFF (Faithful Flowers Follower)

[@theeternalslayer]

@@BenjaminAnderson21 so what? Here's where I disagree with him, calvanists are spiritually blind brainwashed and arrogant followers of john McArthur.

[@theeternalslayer]

@@BenjaminAnderson21 you would have to be blind and brainwashed to believe that God is partially to blame, nevermind that calvanism teaches that God elected people before the creation of the world showing favoritism and partiality when the bible doesn't support this. Nevermind the blatant gaslighting and brainwashing they do the same brainwashing we rail and condemn Mormons for doing. And nevermind their claims God doesn't doesn't speak to us using signs and wonders and visions anymore, they're blind fools and they want you to blind and spiritual dead too it leads to spiritual blindness!

[@johnchacko1425]

protesent friend rejected me because of the catholic church

[@iqgustavo]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 *🎙️ Discussing the Concept of the One True Church* - Exploring the concept of the one true church and how it influences religious beliefs, - Differentiating between the Catholic and Protestant perspectives on the one true church, - Examining the implications of ecclesiology in theological discourse. 03:00 *🏛️ Understanding the Role of the Catholic Church* - Delving into the historical perspective of the Roman Catholic Church's claim as the one true church, - Comparing the Catholic view of ecclesiology with Protestant and Orthodox perspectives, - Discussing the papacy and its significance in maintaining unity within the church. 08:05 *📚 Exploring Doctrinal Similarities and Differences* - Highlighting similarities and differences between Reformed theology and Catholicism, - Examining the distinctions between the visible and invisible church, - Considering historical views on church unity and schisms within Christianity. 17:37 *📜 Understanding the status of Protestants according to the Catholic Church* - The Catholic Church traditionally defines a Christian as someone who has a valid baptism. - Valid baptism is performed with the correct matter (water) and form (words), according to the mind of the Church. - Protestants with valid baptisms are considered Christians, though theological differences exist. 20:34 *🛐 Authority of Church teachings and levels of assent required* - Dogmas, infallible teachings, such as the Resurrection of Christ, require full assent of faith. - Infallible teachings not dogmatically defined, like the validity of a Council, also require assent. - Teachings requiring submission of mind and will, like immediate soul creation by God, necessitate acceptance but allow personal doubt. 24:06 *🤔 Interpretation of "salvation by faith alone" and implications for Catholics* - Pope Benedict XVI noted that formulations like "saved by faith alone" aren't inherently wrong if faith includes works of love. - Catholic understanding distinguishes between doctrines one must believe and the eternal fate of those who reject specific doctrines. 32:02 *🎓 Reconciling exclusivist views with the diversity of religious beliefs* - Strict exclusivism challenges the salvation of those who haven't encountered specific religious truths. - Calvinist predestination offers a theological shield against criticisms of unequal opportunities for salvation based on birth or geography. - The tension between exclusivist and inclusive perspectives shapes discussions on evangelization and religious diversity. 35:05 *📜 Overview of Calvinist perspective on predestination* - Discussion on the Calvinist belief in God's sovereignty in granting grace unequally. - Comparison of Calvinist and non-Calvinist perspectives on the sufficiency of God's grace for salvation. - Exploring objections to Calvinism regarding the fairness and justice of God's actions. 36:14 *🛤️ Calvinist perspective on finding election in Christ* - Explanation of the Calvinist view that finding election lies in Christ, not in oneself or in a particular church. - Discussion on the role of theological accuracy and sacraments in Calvinism's view of salvation. - Addressing objections and complexities regarding individuals' understanding of Christ and church affiliation. 37:51 *🎚️ Perspectives on God's grace and salvation outside the visible church* - Exploration of whether members of the elect can exist outside the Christian faith. - Clarification on the covenant promises of eternal life within the visible Church. - Consideration of individual salvation possibilities based on invincible ignorance or other factors. 40:11 *🏝️ Understanding God's election and means of salvation* - Discussion on God's election and the means through which it operates. - Clarification on God's unconditional election and the role of evangelism and sacraments. - Exploration of theological nuances within Calvinism and comparison with other perspectives. 42:00 *🧭 Differentiating Calvinism from Calvinistic evangelicals* - Distinction between various streams of thought within Calvinism, including supralapsarian and infralapsarian positions. - Clarification on the rejection of equal ultimacy within Calvinism. - Discussion on nuances in understanding the gospel and salvation within different theological traditions. 52:34 *📜 Differences between Calvin and Thomas on predestination and election* - Calvin and Thomas both agree on unconditional election. - Calvin's view of predestination is more Christocentric, emphasizing Christ as the elect and believers being elect in him. - The substantial difference lies in the perseverance of the saints (PE) in Calvinism, where Calvinists believe in the perseverance of the elect, while Thomas believed in baptismal regeneration. 53:16 *💭 Views on original sin and the fall* - Original sin, according to the Catholic view, is a deprivation of grace inherited from Adam's rejection of God. - Calvinists differ in their views on whether God decreed or permitted the fall, leaning towards the idea of God permitting it while not outside his providence. - The understanding of reprobation and election varies among Calvinists, with some emphasizing individual responsibility for damnation. 57:07 *🕊️ Understanding salvation: Faith, works, and Union with Christ* - Catholics believe in salvation through union with Christ, which encompasses faith and works. - Salvation is viewed as a process in Catholicism, involving initial grace through baptism and ongoing sanctification. - The concept of merit in Catholic theology is nuanced, emphasizing God's promises and the role of works in salvation as a response to grace. 01:10:04 *🛠️ The difference between Calvinist and Catholic views on salvation* - Calvinist and Protestant views generally assert that bad works cannot cause the loss of salvation. - Catholic doctrine suggests that a bad work can lead to the loss of the gift of justification. - Main difference lies in whether bad works evidence lack of regeneration or not. 01:11:39 *🌱 Understanding the parable of the sower* - The parable of the sower illustrates different responses to the gospel. - Shallow soil represents superficial faith that may seem genuine but lacks depth. - Jesus' parable suggests that some people may appear saved but are not truly regenerate. 01:12:23 *📜 Exploring apostasy and regeneration* - Traditional Calvinist and Presbyterian beliefs acknowledge apostasy as a real phenomenon. - Not all apostates fit the category of "they were of us, but not really." - Regeneration remains a theological category with eschatological implications. 01:14:13 *🤔 Clarifying the relationship between faith, works, and salvation* - Discussion revolves around whether salvation is contingent on avoiding evil works or actively doing good works. - Understanding of works extends beyond traditional good deeds to include avoiding evil actions. - Different interpretations exist regarding adherence to commandments and Sabbath observance. 01:17:41 *🤝 Perspectives on marriage between Christians and non-Christians* - Catholic perspective allows for marriage between a Catholic and non-Christian with proper dispensation. - Protestant view emphasizes marriage between Christians due to the covenantal nature of marriage. - Interpretations differ based on theological frameworks regarding marriage as a sacrament or covenant. 01:26:30 *📜 Calvinist and Catholic views on marriage and divorce* - Exploring differences between Catholic and Protestant perspectives on marriage dissolution. - Calvinist perspective: Marriage dissolution applies if one spouse abandons the other due to conversion to Christianity. - Catholic perspective: Marriage remains valid even if one spouse abandons the other, emphasizing the permanence of marriage bonds. 01:27:25 *🤔 Interpreting Paul's teachings and Protestant views on marriage* - Debate over the perpetually binding nature of Paul's teachings among Protestants. - Protestant interpretation of Paul's writings on marriage and Christian faithfulness. 01:29:05 *🤝 Protestant views on marriage between Christians and non-Christians* - Discussion on Protestant traditional understanding regarding marriage between Christians and non-Christians. - Clarification on the requirement for Christian marriage partners in some Protestant denominations. 01:30:45 *🙏 Protestant concerns about Catholic practices: praying to Saints and Mary* - Exploration of Protestant skepticism towards Catholic practices such as praying to Saints and veneration of Mary. - Comparison of Protestant and Catholic perspectives on devotional practices and iconography. 01:32:35 *🔍 Recognizing potential abuses in religious devotion* - Acknowledgment of the potential for abuse in both Protestant and Catholic religious practices. - Examination of historical instances of superstition and idolization within religious traditions.

[@ekatrinya]

RZ got me to question what my exact beliefs were and made me a little less anti Catholic. Ripperger made me consider that Catholicism could actually be true. Then Trent answered just about every question or objection I've ever had. I come from an anti Catholic family and my husband is only halfway on board but I would love to convert. Baby #2 due any day so there's a lot going on at the moment, but my husband is very open to listening to debates and anything from Trent Horn. I'm hoping to belong to the Catholic Church before baby #3 🙏🏻

[@bluecomb5376]

I will be praying for you and your discernment as well as your husbands. Also congratulations on #2! Praying for a safe delivery.

[@crusaderACR]

Congratulations on the baby!!! May God keep you and yours in His eyes.

[@christopherfleming7505]

I pray you may one day come home to the Catholic Church. Being married in the Church is the best thing ever! The power of the sacrament of holy matrimony will, if you allow it, transform your lives.

[@oswaldrabbit1409]

I would just say to make sure you get a perspective from all the best of the protestant theologians. Trent Horn is undeniably a persuasive and knowledgable intellectual titan in the RC apologist field, so you need to make sure equal theologians get their side of the story in. No offense to Redeemed, I really like him, but his ability to take on a skilled theologian like Trent is minimal (not that I could do any better).

[@bluecomb5376]

Trent Horn is persuasive because he is explaining the Truth, which can be found in its fullness in the Catholic Church. His skill is secondary to his success.@@oswaldrabbit1409

[@Vaughndaleoulaw]

As a former Presbyterian convert, I truly appreciate this conversation.

[@terrykessinger4432]

@Vaughndaleoulaw A good friend of mine wants me to meet with her Presbyterian son to meet with me before I enter the Catholic Church this Easter vigil. She is a former Catholic and we have been in a non-denominational church for a long time. Any thoughts? What was the final reason you crossed over, if I can ask?

[@ihiohoh2708]

​@@terrykessinger4432 I know you didn't ask me, but I will say going to a nondenominational or Baptist church will starve you of spirituality. I think it's very common for nondenominationals especially to want to find something more because of how low the view of church is. Yet I will say you don't have to go so for or out of Protestantism to be spiritually filled. God bless.

[@carolynschuster291]

me too!

[@JoshuaJacque117]

@@ihiohoh2708 There are some very good traditional Baptist churches, though I can't say the same for nondenominational churches

[@terrykessinger4432]

@@ihiohoh2708 Hi, I know that many are, but mine just didn’t happen to be. I think what I have discovered I miss out on more than anything is the holiness and the Eucharist.

[@manny75586]

My favorite Catholic Evangelist and Trent Horn haha. But for real RZ's IG is hilarious how often he's like "why do people keep converting to Catholocism from my page?" Haha

[@_ROMANS_116]

Why would they? Any guesses?

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

He said that just once tbh and most of them are going to EO.

[@deadalivemaniac]

I can only imagine why an entry-level layman is driving people out of Calvinism? It can’t be him being out of his depth.

[@renjithjoseph7135]

Nah the greatest converter of Prots to Catholicism is James White. He's hardly entry-level. Calvinism just doesn't hold up ​@@deadalivemaniac

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@@_ROMANS_116 because to be deep in history is to cease to be protestant

[@Church0426]

As a Protestant Reformed Baptist, thank you both for this convo. Really helped clear up both your positions for me. God bless!

[@therealong]

@Church0426 But this is only a superficial conversation... You got to get deeper into the themes brought up...

[@Church0426]

Oh trust me…I am. It’s been quite the rabbit hole lately.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

I grew up as a Jehovah Witness and then participated in various protestant denominations for decades and joined the Catholic Church in my mid fifties. The most convincing argument is the history of the Church. As a JW, I would knock on peoples doors as a child and read Matthew 28:19-20, and when Jesus said, "I am with you always, to the close of the age,” it is only the Catholic Church that can say Amen to that statement. I don't believe for a second Jesus would let his Church go astray for over a thousand years and say I tricked you and now I'm going to straighten everything out. God is a God of order -- he chose Abraham, Moses, David, etc. and then Peter to protect his Word. Catholics may differ on their opinions, but that God has a leader (266 popes in succession) and magisterium to safeguard doctrines speaks volumes to me. The "gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the Church)." Notice the word is it -- not them. There is only one truth, one faith and God gives us around 28,000 days if we are blessed to figure it out through grace. However, I do believe many who love God with their whole heart and love neighbor will be at the table in Heaven, regardless of faith because God is love and I think there are many people besides Catholics that love God with their whole heart. But the fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church.

[@OOMiguelGonzalez]

Amen 🙏

[@jamiea.c.seerattan365]

Amen😊

[@rickymendez5398]

Hit the nail on the head.

[@christopherbravo1813]

God allowed the Northern Kingdom of Israel to remain in open rebellion against His will for 108 years before handing the kingdom to Assyria, and allowed Judah to remain in sin for another 40 before unleashing Babylon upon it. Furthermore, God allowed the Legalistic dogma of the Pharisees to dominate Israel spiritually while also allowing the Roman Empire to dominate Israel physically prior to the coming of Jesus. God is not obligated to personally intervene every time His faithful fall into error the moment that it happens.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

@@christopherbravo1813 But he never abandoned his mission with Israel until it was over and opened to the entire world. The New Covenant or New Testament is everlasting. Jesus founded one Church. He never said upon this rock I will build my churches. In Matthew 28:20 he says "and behold, I will be with you until the end of the age." He also says the gates of hell will not prevail over his Church.

[@shepherddog1199]

I was raised Arian and I had an "Arian baptism." As soon as I can, I'm going to begin the process of becoming Catholic. Pray for the journey of my family!

[@SuperGreatSphinx]

Ave Maria

[@shlamallama6433]

Bro that's crazy dude. "You're a convert? What did you convert from." "Arianism." "Wait so like Mormonism?" "No. Straight up Arianism. I was baptized arian." 👁👄👁

[@shepherddog1199]

@@shlamallama6433 ikr. It's weird 😂

[@deusvult8340]

@@shepherddog1199Imagine having an icon of Arius with a halo enshrined in the house😂

[@aquilla2.087]

They still exist?

[@gimmeanswers6732]

No way my two fav Christian KZbinrs just collaborated! Chat is this real? God bless RZ and Trent!

[@PhillipCummingsUSA]

You should meet more Christians

[@asterglaceon]

@@PhillipCummingsUSAI don’t think he means favorite Christian he’s ever met, maybe just like favorite Christian KZbinr

[@UltriLeginaXI]

@@PhillipCummingsUSAkinda rude but ok

[@keagaming9837]

I know right? Trent and RZ are two of my favorite Christian talk KZbinrs! :D

[@lothara.schmal5092]

@@PhillipCummingsUSAHow charitable and Christ like of you

[@seadog223]

PCA Presbyterian here. I greatly appreciate this discussion. Hopefully they can meet again!

[@caine3410]

It was lovely to see how RZ is going out of his way to not mischaracterize catholics, especially when he explicitly checks in if his take is fair or not. Really appreciated this episode, would love to see this discussion continue.

[@rickmiller2042]

I really enjoyed the dialogue versus debate format. As I listened through the program I understood why redeemed zoomer minimizes the differences between calvinism and catholicism. He has reached an understanding of the reformed position that brings it very close. Having been a presbyterian and had my masters at a school which is in the reformed tradition, I think his positions, as an entirety, are held by a very small minority of reformed, even those very schooled in the reformed confessions.

[@tatersgonnatate1471]

Thank you for this. I just started learning about the Presbyterian denomination, and his views seem contrary at times to what I've been learning.

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

Theological liberalism broke much of the connection that Protestants had with their traditional views and neo-Calvinism brought many of those who remained orthodox closer to the Baptists, as they proved to be examples of solidity in the face of theological liberalism. So much Presbyterians are now what we call "Presbapterians". However, we cannot forget that what defines someone as Reformed is adherence to the Reformed confessions of faith, such as the Canons of Dort, the Belgian Confession, the Westminster Confession, etc. And they have remained the same for centuries and have the theology that RZ presents.

[@mortensimonsen1645]

Do you think RZ is closer to Calvin/historical reformed churches? And that later developments have removed these churches further away?

[@rickmiller2042]

@@mortensimonsen1645 Actually much of RZ’s theology is of an earlier reformed form but it is a subset traditional interpretation of that form which would match others that hold to,the same interpretation

[@HannahClapham]

@mortensimonsen1645. I discerned RZ to be accurate on the whole, here. Popular forms of Calvinism have morphed some (like becoming more Zwinglian on the Eucharist), but if you found RZ to be fairly divergent from the Reformed thought you’re familiar with, it just may be due to misunderstandings on your part.

[@Bill-mq7wr]

My favorite protestant on my favorite Catholic’s show. Epic. Love you guys.

[@dougy6237]

Trent is evangelizing this Protestant fellow. This could be the beginning of his move toward the Catholic Church.

[@bradleyhills7117]

Lutheran here, loved this convo and love both of your channels! God bless y’all!

[@keagaming9837]

As an Anglican, I think both Trent and RZ make excellent points! They both are very good Christian talk KZbinrs, they both are amazing!

[@germankoster4910]

Pal, your church only exist because Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife and have children with Anne Boleyn, Why would anybody be an anglican. For fucks, sake, it's a national religion, it's in the name, anglican from England.

[@StephaneLarochelle-d3f]

Excellent discussion between a solid Calvinist and a Catholic theologian. It's great to see this friendly question/discussion meeting,

[@ezuri976]

My two favorite Christian KZbinrs in the same video? Let’s go

[@jemarpaloso6272]

As a catholic, i was very happy when trent said, "to enter the final salvation all must do is not to reject God, accept the initial salvation and not dying in the state of mortal sin"

[@ThreeStar-p6q]

and not go to mary

[@jemarpaloso6272]

I agree, she is my mother and my friend..

[@ThreeStar-p6q]

@@jemarpaloso6272 you are absolutely right. she also needs Jesus blood for her salvation. Acts 4:12

[@jemarpaloso6272]

I can't agree, in the context of "none other name" in acts 4:12, does it mean.. all humans including the name of the old, such as Enoch or Elijah ? The point is, our God permits and allows, a special task for an individual to become sinless such as Enoch or Mary, because they have special role of our father's plan. In the Dogma as Mary is immaculate, she is sinless, before conceiving, during and after giving birth. That's is why the angel Gabriel declares "blessed are you among women" meaning all women.. from the days of old, during her time, and until the end of time... And from the context she needs a savior, she is referring to, a prayer, a Thanksgiving to the father, for delivering her to sin, perhaps from the sin of lust, from anger and hatred, during the death of his son....

[@ThreeStar-p6q]

@@jemarpaloso6272 Enoch is not sinless. Romans 3:10,23. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is sinless and perfect. the bible doesnt teach any sinless man or woman except the Lord Jesus Christ. All needs a Savior even mary. she is blessed because God choose her, just like HE called and choose Moses, Elijah, David, etc. The mother and child idolatry is a pagan belief, dating back from egyptian, canaan, mesopotamian, babylonian and even exist in our present time. God hates Idolatrous people

[@sivad1025]

As a Presbyterian in RCIA, this video is a microcosm of my experience this past year. Every objection I made was along the line of Zoomer's objections but I ended up at Trent's response that the same argument could be made by an atheist. When you caveat Calvinism enough times, you end up with Catholicism plus mental gymnastics particularly on salvation. The catechism's understanding of predestination and cooperation with grace fits so much more naturally into the teachings of Jesus. Calvinists are left arguing in circles about how the Bible can call us to righteousness when our depravity is so great that we can't even will good without unconditional compulsion.

[@ryandelaune139]

Roman Catholicism does the same stuff. Multiple different distinctions between worship and veneration to avoid the idolatry accusation. The creation of the development clause to avoid having to trace their traditions back to the apostles. The development clause also helps them whitewash the changes that have been made on “infallible” decisions. The nuancing of initial and final justification to go around Romans 4. There are so very many examples of both sides doing this

[@sivad1025]

@ryandelaune139 That's not really my issue though. If you have an issue with caveating claims to make theology coherent, you've validated every accusation atheists make against the Bible. As Trent says, we argue like atheists I grant that reinterpretation is permissible and necessary. My issue with Calvinism is that when you reinterpret it enough times, you end up with a very Catholic theology with some added gymnastics. The Bible talks about the will and righteousness of men and about predestination. There is tension so you're going to need to reinterpretation no matter what. I find that the Calvinists end up doing this way, way more particularly on justification since their theology is based on maybe 2 chapters of Romans while the Catholic view is the plain reading of 95% of the Bible. Recently Ezekiel 18 was the daily reading from the lectionary and it stood out to me as an example that is so plainly Catholic, a Calvinist has to reinterpret virtually every verse to make sense of it. *‭‭“If a man is righteous and does what is just and right... he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.... The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.... But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.... But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.* _Ezekiel 18:5,9,20,21,24_ Very truncated, but you have a clear declaration that men are deemed righteous by their actions, that we are forgiven by faith and that a person can lose their forgiveness through sin. There is not a hint of predestination or efficacious grace or eternal security. Any plain reading gives some version of Catholic salvation. I'm not convinced that a super complex chapter in Romans pulls an uno reverse card on the rest of the Bible

[@BookerGoodwin]

@@ryandelaune139 Whorship and veneration is an easy distinction in Latin or Greek. It is a matter of priorities. Worship priority 1. It is a sore subject since the beginning of the denomination. Calvin propounded predestination, the doctrine that God has chosen the elect, and nothing can change this. Thus, the arguments from Clichtove and other Catholics that cited 2 Maccabees for the doctrine of the intercession of saints was suspect to him: for Calvin, salvation was strictly God's choice, and not a matter that dead saints could intervene on.

[@pavelcrestin1]

RC theology is inconsistent : kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@marysherron2172]

Redeemed Zoomer is brilliant! God has gifted him with high intelligence. Love Trent Horn and your ministry all these years. Thank you for this jewel of a conversation and interview. God bless!

[@avwads]

Great conversation! Former Catholic convert and apologist here. RZ, you need to know that many, many Protestants have no problem with IVF. Recently encountered a member of a baptist church who was a surrogate mother for another couple. She actually believed she was doing a good thing. The Protestant disobedience on contraception has facilitated the confusion about all sexual issues in the Protestant church. Trent Horn, if anybody can bring me back to the RCC, it will be you!

[@pavelcrestin1]

RC theology is inconsistent : kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@Catmonks7]

The only charitable discussion I needed to see🤣👍🙏✝️🇻🇦 my favorite catholic apologist and favorite Protestant apologist on social media 😎

[@rackreman]

I was very excited to see this video pop up in my feed. RZ’s video on Christian demonstrations opened my eyes up to how many different thoughts there were in Christianity. It led me down a path of discovery and learning. I found Catholicism to be the most interesting as its claims were so unique. I’ve been listening to RZ since last Easter, and I started listening to Trent only a couple months later. These are two of my favorite Christian’s to listen and learn from. Thank you for the conversation! I can’t wait to listen to it.

[@ChungGuss]

Love this. Interview Christian Wagner or Classical Theist next

[@PilotZoomer]

Or pinesap

[@jacobzanardi1930]

Trent would never… As much as I enjoy Trent’s content and apologetics, I’ve only seen him speak poorly of these types of Catholics

[@RcToydrive]

Yes

[@ChungGuss]

Redeemed Zoomer just went on Wagner's channel and they had a great conversation

[@roundtable3501]

@@jacobzanardi1930 There has been a few small disagreements on twitter, but I don’t see how there’s that much animosity. I mean Trent cited Wagner as a source for a st. Thomas quote for one of his videos. And Wagner did a video a few weeks ago defending Trent on the incarnation. Trent even said in his 100k subscriber special a few months ago that he has nothing against Wagner, but he wants to focus on dialoguing with non-Catholics more on this channel.

[@VVGrace-vl6ye]

As a 16 year old non denom Christian, this was a bit overwhelming but I really enjoyed it. I have Catholic and Calvinist friends who I love to talk to so it was awesome to hear a conversation from two people who know so much more than we do! Thank you RZ and Mr. Horn!

[@atlantean.prince]

Love RZ. Really helped with my understanding of Christianity. Started my process of going back to the Holy Catholic Church.

[@daughterofyeshuaa]

Same !!

[@pavelcrestin1]

RC theology is inconsistent : kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@StoaoftheSouth]

This is the Catholic/Reformed discussion I've been waiting to see.

[@teeemm9456]

Too bad their both probably wrong. You should check out some other KZbinrs too, expand a little. Coming from Calvinist teaching, I've learned that Calvinism's core tenants are mostly wrong, and Catholic church was less wrong, but still has major problems.

[@essafats5728]

@@teeemm9456 you got a lot more to learn; don't stop now continue and preservere

[@teeemm9456]

@@essafats5728 you're right, but the arrow definitely doesn't point to Calvinism or RCC. There's near zero chance the papacy wasn't, and isn't, human error and continued indulgence of power.

[@essafats5728]

@@teeemm9456 so, where was ur faith tradition in the compilation and preservation of our precious Bible that u use today? And did Jesus at his resurrection 2000yrs ago leave a Church or the precious Bible u use today? Smh, so u alone as a modern man in all of Christianity 2000yrs history figured it out all on on your own the FULL TRUTH of Jesus Christ?

[@teeemm9456]

@@essafats5728 He left apostles, that are all long dead. The papacy wasn't established until hundreds of years later, and there's been numerous, terrible popes. The vast majority of Catholic doctrine is great, but Jesus did not leave the RCC behind, nor did He leave behind a pope.

[@dr.mofongo9001]

Just saw this on my feed. I discovered Redeemed Zoomer a few months ago, and he comes across as very intelligent and informed, as is Trent, so this should be an intriguing dialogue.

[@salvadorhenriquez4091]

Un dominicano que chulo

[@lespinal90]

🇩🇴🇩🇴🇩🇴

[@LadySilmarien]

This is an excellent discussion. One of the best I’ve heard on these subjects. Godly, intelligent and insightful. Good job gentlemen.

[@luxetvita8067]

I'm an Anglo-Catholic, and Trent's argument at 17:06 was one of the best, most succinct arguments I've ever heard to demonstrate the divine nature of the Church and what she teaches. Really well said.

[@docverit2668]

Anglo-Catholic? Ah yes the proud group that wishes to claim some Catholicism while maintaining some distance and falsely assuming that Anglo-Catholic is just like Roman Catholic, but with Anglo peculiarities. Doesn't work.

[@luxetvita8067]

@@docverit2668 Thanks for your insightful and friendly response. You make a great case for Rome.

[@crusaderACR]

​@@luxetvita8067 Please forgive my brother for his snark. I think his point is that we shouldn't regionalize the Church? Before I say anything, sorry but the word "Anglo-Catholic" for a separate denomination makes me feel a little uncomfortable. Let me try to word it out. Say, I've heard some Eastern Orthodox talking about Eastern Church fathers and Western Church fathers as if separate things. "Oh that's expected, St. Ambrose was a LATIN father" "No, no, St. Chrysostom is one of OURS" That's just worth a slap from St. Nicholas. It's all One Church. If we're going to talk about Anglo-Catholicism, it shouldn't be in opposition to, say, Hispano-Catholicism or French-Catholicism. We're separate members of one Body, but not separate as if the Body is amputated in parts. Separate purposes, but all One nonetheless. Right?

[@luxetvita8067]

@alonsoACR Anglo-Catholic isn't a denomination. It refers to a particular theological/ecclesiastical view among some members of the Anglican Communion. I only mention being Anglo-Catholic to indicate that I come from a very similar perspective and convictions regarding the Church, but this particular argument that Trent used was new to me, and I found it to be a very effective comparison.

[@gannonleonard]

​forgive my own ignorance on this matter, is that then similar to those of the Anglican community who have left and been received into full Communion with Rome? Keeping their bishops, married priests as well as many liturgical traditions such as those of the Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter?

[@LukeBowman08]

I've been so excited for this, love you both!

[@_ROMANS_116]

What’s the gospel

[@LukeBowman08]

@@_ROMANS_116 all have sinned and need to atone for our sin but instead God became man and atoned for our sin on our behalf. He did this by being crucified and rising from the dead so if we put our faith in Him, believing He is God who died for our sin and rose from the dead, we can have eternal life.

[@ogloc6308]

@@LukeBowman08based

[@_ROMANS_116]

@@LukeBowman08 thank you very much friend. So how do you receive eternal life?

[@eclectic2327]

@@_ROMANS_116faith brother, however we must note that faith cannot be divorced from faithfulness, what is faithfulness to God? Observing his commandments, and doing the good works he had prepared to nourish our souls with

[@jesuslovesyou2024]

This was such a beautiful and deep session. Thank you for the respectful and rich discussion. I have been wrestling with the Lord for over a decade (if not longer) as He has been drawing me to salvation and to the Catholic Church. This was really helpful. May God bless you both.

[@thecaffeinatedconvert3162]

This was such a great discussion. Redeemed Zoomer is very articulate and well read. S/O to him.

[@seandobson2682]

This is not a collab I was expecting anytime soon lol. Glad to see you both are sitting down together!

[@Life-er6mq]

God bless RZ from this former Presbyterian convert to Catholicism!! Great discussion and I appreciate both channels and the great work that they do 🙌🏾

[@joshuacarson9121]

Been waiting for these two to meet for so long, excited to watch!!

[@davidmcfarlane1467]

I’m a former Calvinist and became Catholic 4 years ago! My youngest son and my wife became Catholic and my three older children are still Reformed.

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

You were Dutch Redormed or Presbyterian?

[@MarvelGamer2023]

Praying for the salvation of your Reformed children. God bless brother ❤

[@Makayla-qk2bg]

implying that Calvinist have no salvation?? typical catholic@@MarvelGamer2023

[@MarvelGamer2023]

@@Makayla-qk2bg If you believe Calvin died for your sins, I suppose you could think you have salvation. As for me and my household, we'll serve Jesus Christ and submit to the Church He established

[@patriciajohnson1894]

​@@MarvelGamer2023Amen ❤

[@klukz]

Shoutout to Redeemed Zoomer for making some great videos for people that are new to Christianity!

[@200mm]

OH MY GOSH I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS THANK YOU

[@SaintlySaavy]

RZ is a very knowledgeable and is a good man. This was incredibly productive and shows how conversations between Christians should be. Cheers Gentleman!

[@josephdantonio9187]

Toward the end of this debate I noticed something that I see happen with a lot of Protestant discussions on issues. A moral issue where there is disagreement amongst Protestants comes up and the position of both sides basically boils down to a “no true Scotsman” argument as opposed to something with any real teeth to it. Like given the IVF issue, post the Alabama Supreme Court ruling, we are seeing MANY Christian’s from what would typically be called “conservative” Protestant viewpoints coming out as pro-IVF.

[@TheMacDonald22]

Perfect! Redeemed Zoomer made me Catholic, Trent Horn kept me there!

[@_ROMANS_116]

How did that happen?

[@tomgjokaj]

Welcome home 🙏

[@TheMacDonald22]

@@_ROMANS_116 Trent Horn is obvious, he's a genius. Redeemed Zoomer's videos made me Christian, I learned so much from him and learned the "intelectual" side of Christianity (which I thought was a contradiction when I was agnostic). I learned from him that Christianity is the most proven religion and if any religion was true it would be Christianity. After a while, however, I felt spiritually lacking in reformed protestantism, it made me feel like God was just an object of study so I looked around first in Lutheranism, then in Anglicanism, and finally I realized that Catholicism (a religion that I was never in my life fond of) was true. So Redeemed Zoomer lead me to Christianity and by the help of his theology videos I found that Catholicism was the one true Church with the greatest theology and also the greatest way to have a relationship with God.

[@TheMacDonald22]

@@_ROMANS_116 In fact, I would say Redeemed Zoomers videos are the greatest thing to happen to me, because God used them to bring me home.

[@TheMacDonald22]

@@tomgjokaj Thanks!

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

First off. The low quality is fantastic, its actually very cool, mean this as a fun compliment in the best way.

[@OliverJ08]

Redeemed zoomer helped me come to Christ, then I left the Church of England for the one true Church

[@elKarlo]

Good for you. Glad you found salvation. It seems that the biggest mess in the CoE/ Anglicans in the developed world. It’s sad as it has a lot to offer. But it also is probably the worst denomination that wasn’t a cult from the start.

[@OliverJ08]

@@elKarlo yeah the church just became too heretical and took on too much of the modern world to be considered holy

[@BigTrollingMan]

Redeemed Zoomer helped me join the Anglican Communion and later help found the EFR (Episcopal Fellowship for Renewal)

[@pavelcrestin1]

RC theology is inconsistent : kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@biggestbungus3096]

This was so informative and super helpful. I too am a Calssical Prebyterian, and I watch and listen to Trent all the time. This is a super well done conversation

[@MBiggens]

Loved the discussion. Two of my favorite KZbinrs to listen to over the past year as I've begun my Christian journey. Though my understanding is more Catholic than Calvinist, Redeemed Zoomer's ability to teach and share at an easy to understand level is remarkable. Also, seeing someone younger than me with his level of passion for these topics does my soul good. God bless both of you. Plese keep the edifying content coming

[@computationaltheist7267]

Redeemed Zoomer is an awesome Calvinist. I definitely like his stuff.

[@marteld2108]

There is nothing awesome about Calvinism.

[@computationaltheist7267]

@@marteld2108 Kindly elaborate on your point.

[@marteld2108]

@@computationaltheist7267 you said he was awesome and I am saying there is nothing awesome about Calvinism.

[@computationaltheist7267]

@@marteld2108 What is wrong with Calvinism?

[@marteld2108]

@@computationaltheist7267 Are you a Calvinist?

[@gnomeresearch1666]

There is the one Church, and then there are separate communities of the baptized not submitting to the authority of the Church as commanded by Our Lord. Letting go of my anticatholic inherited nonsense took a long time, but I'm glad I could finally submit to the authority of Christ. He desires us to be as ONE, that others may believe. Great dialogue as always! Love the RedeemedZoomer's channel as well.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

My spouse was a Lutheran, now Catholic. Good to include them as contrast between Calvinism and Catholicism.

[@pavelcrestin1]

RC theology is inconsistent : kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@TruthHasSpoken]

@@pavelcrestin1 What is inconsistent Pavel?

[@thebadpunusername8913]

Protestant and not calvinest very nice to grow a more rounded understanding of these two sects. Thanks for such a calm and polite sharing of the theological opinions.

[@ChubbyPug12]

Redeemed zoomer did so well! Great job! Loved this conversation and Trent, I’m so glad you finally spoke with an actual reformed person and not a Baptist. 🎉

[@luisdizon2486]

Redeemed Zoomer reminds me of myself back in my Reformed days. Maybe that's why I like him so much despite our obvious theological differences. 😅

[@pavelcrestin1]

RC theology is inconsistent : kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqO2hmOXm8l3qNU

[@DarkHorseCrusader]

This was an awesome conversation. Thanks to both of you!

[@TheSecPaqReacts]

Trent did really well explaining the Catholic position not only scripturally and religiously, but also logically. Our faith cannot be one of irrationality, as it is intended for all to hear and come too. Redeemed Zoomer had an open heart and good counter points but I think the root/seeds of his position were illogical and didnt really get a fruitful breakdown for someone not already familiar with Calvinism theology. Good video overall from both

[@jamisonharris9869]

What a powerful and helpful discussion. These two gentlemen didn't debate one time. They simply discussed.

[@Babby6010]

I’ve seen this guy in some recommended videos. His videos are very reminiscent of “old KZbin” he is a very smart young man and am so glad he was able to talk to Trent. God bless.

[@jaybel8199]

Give us a guide of how to be a Catholic apologist like you Trent. Proud to see a San Diego native doing great things for God! 😃 You're the man!

[@ChumX100]

"proud to be...", "you're the man" Watch out for pride, it can feed of pretty much anything, even religion, theology and apologetics.

[@microsoftpain]

@@ChumX100 There's a difference between giving someone a nice compliment and being so self-absorbed that being prideful takes over your life and you dismiss the divine as if you're in competition with God. The commenter is fine, he's not doing any of that.

[@AquinasBased]

cmon bro @@ChumX100

[@fatstrategist]

@@AquinasBased Username based

[@michaelthrone]

Indeed as Trent conceded, Catholics can and some do abuse various Catholic beliefs. However, another abuse is to de-emphasize the absolute necessity of works along with faith for salvation by failing to provide a more full throated defense of St. James' "faith without works is dead," and instead water it down a bit by saying that Catholics get the notion of works from James wrong, etc. Thankfully, a much, much better Catholic apologist in this regard is the highly entertaining Ferris Murdoch who in his videos points out the serious flaws in Protestant interpretations, how they unjustly add words to the bible to make false claims, and how they also downplay and basically dismiss what St. James clearly teaches. Start with Ferris' short KZbin video on "Works and Works of the Law" at kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIaypJaPqdGKmdU ..and also check out his devastating critique of Allie Beth Stuckey in his review of a debate between Stuckey and George Farmer at kzbin.info/www/bejne/pnq7mWqLpr5-prM Ferris has many other KZbin videos spread out over the past 5 years or so that you may also be interested in because he takes on many of the leading Protestant apologists, not in a face-to-face format, but by presenting them setting forth their positions in their videos, and then clearly demonstrating their errors. His superb defense of the Catholic Faith is done without watering any of it down to be extra nice to opponents, yet he treats them all with proper respect. One other thing I highly recommend, especially to sincere Catholics, is a fairly recent book by Crisis Magazine editor Eric Sammons entitled "Deadly Indifference: How the Church Lost Her Mission and How We Can Reclaim It." I suspect that super nice guy Trent might find fellow convert Sammon's book and his exclusivist position unnecessarily condemnatory of people outside the Church, but then again, Eric more than likely finds Trent to be too accommodating and not helping those outside the Church as much as he could. Judge for yourselves which overall position and approach you favor most by also giving Sammons' book a thoughtful read to compare it with Trent's work.

[@Kaspar502]

So many of our ancestors who lost so much in the religious wars of the 16th and 17th century are very glad to see that Christians cab more and more just come together and dicuss in peace

[@michaeltagor4238]

"lost so much" 😂 I thought they didn't die in vain cus they were protecting the one true church and succeeded in doing so

[@Kaspar502]

@@michaeltagor4238 pretty sure not everyone in the 16th and 17th century europe was a soldier

[@michaeltagor4238]

@@Kaspar502 the Pope didn't said anything about the common people that lost anything right, so follow what your infallible leader said then, which is fck all

[@AthanSMaliakkal]

​@michaeltagor4238 pope is not infallible on everything. We catholics never say the pope is infallible. We say ex cathedra is infallible

[@michaeltagor4238]

@@AthanSMaliakkal who's we cus I sure as heck never met a Catholic that actually say that

[@londonderrry]

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, That he may dwell in thy courts: We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple" (Psalm 65:4.)

[@uverpro3598]

Just watched the first half hour before bed. Catholic here, trying to grow in faith. In 2020 I lost my sweet Baptist Grandma. Her faith was and is ever inspiring. Hear “she’s fine” is a good note to close on.

[@violetblythe6912]

Wow I can't believe I missed this! So cool to see you two talk. I am also a Presbyterian like RZ but I have a lot of respect for Catholics, especially the scholars.

[@Swordbringer]

Yooooo the collab we never thought we needed!

[@bobskanal]

I like this guy. Hope he will be catholic soon.

[@canaljud]

Wow, I can see myself in this young man. Now as a recent catholic convert from protestantism I can tell you this man is READY or almost ready, he is here plainly asking questions cos he truly wants to know the truth. _Ánimo._

[@dougy6237]

Trent is evangelizing this Protestant fellow. This could be the beginning of his move toward the Catholic Church. And welcome to the Church brother. Christ Bless and keep you.

[@compelledcatholic6341]

Thank you Trent and "Redeemed Zoomer" for doing this. Glad to see a honest discussion conducted with respect and charity. The take-away: praise God for knowing how easily it is for humans to wrap their brains around the axle. Thank God that he does not expect us all to go get a post graduate degree in theology and be able to write a thesis on justification. All we have to do is come to him as children, ask for his mercy, and accept it and do our best to follow his commands: get baptized and try to walk the narrow path, and confess our sins when we err. That's it. Jesus left us his Church to guide us. We do not have to stay up at night trying solve questions on predestination. This is not a judgement, but an observation. I watch a lot of the ecumenical videos. Again, not judging, but in my opinion.... I think the biggest roadblock that prevents many/most prominent protestants from seeing truth (especially from the early Church Fathers) is plain old pride. Been there, done that.

[@justinharnett]

This is a great conversation! I like that there's no audience, and emotions involved, but rather just sitting and discussing facts together. Great dialogue!

[@PhillipCummingsUSA]

Im only two minutes into this video and RZ has already said multiple things that made me chuckle.

[@breddythewinner]

Yeah agreed. He has more formal systematic theology. But again, the scripture doesn’t prove one bit of his theology. He still has a heretical view of scripture.

[@chad7070]

​@@breddythewinner Was St. Agustin an heretical?

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

@@breddythewinner Reformed Theology is the most biblical theology by a huge margin.

[@AquinasBased]

No. But he can be taken out of context and his words can be misused by heretics@@chad7070

[@PhillipCummingsUSA]

@@pedroguimaraes6094 According to the person who listens to dubstep workout music.

[@deadalivemaniac]

As an Eastern Orthodox Christian who was Calvinist for years, if you are presented a choice between Calvinism or Catholicism, pick Catholicism every single time. Calvinism is super easy to get into until you get into the deeper systematic theology, then it becomes a mix of Manichaean and Nestorian, among various other issues. You ever wonder why some atheists are so outspoken and harsh? They usually were Calvinist.

[@PaxChristi7]

Interested to hear on what parts of Catholic theology you think are Nestorian. I also wouldn’t say it’s super easy to get into, especially for those with a Protestant upbringing. There’s a lot to wrestle with. Not that that’s a bad thing, but it’s true.

[@deadalivemaniac]

@@PaxChristi7 I said Calvinist theology.

[@Catholic-Christian]

@@deadalivemaniacWould you say true calvinism rejects free will and believe God preordained sin? Or is this just a myth against calvinism?

[@deadalivemaniac]

@@Catholic-Christian it depends. If you ask modern Calvinists, they’ll fight the second assertion and try to softly limit free will. Classically, Calvin rejected free will on general principle and tied himself in knots. Generally, I’d say they don’t make God the author of sin on purpose but that just logically entails that’s how it happened. It’s very convoluted with secondary causation and other things like supralapsarianism. My issue was more basic: can a Christian lose their salvation? Ultimately, that led to other issues of the system being brought to my awareness. Those being Nestorianism, Manichaeism, and Monothelitism/monoenergism. TL;DR: They reject free will but are not seeking to make God the author of sin. Many pages of ink spilled over that issue alone. How convincing the rebuttals are depends on how Calvinist you are.

[@Catholic-Christian]

@@deadalivemaniac Thanks! I asked because I told an anglican that calvinists reject free will and make God the author of sin because they teach ALL things is foreordained, including sin, because I had heard this many times about calvinism. He gave me a quote from a protestant council/Creed but I told him it doesnt matter if the creed says secondary cause, free will etc if you still say sin is foreordained/predestined, it’s just a contradiction at that point. He had no real answer at that point.

[@dougy6237]

Trent is evangelizing this Protestant fellow. This could be the beginning of his move toward the Catholic Church.

[@ThreeStar-p6q]

the great harlot

[@dougy6237]

@@ThreeStar-p6q "the great harlot"? But you have no divinely-appointed authority to decide what is truth. Only the church has the divine guarantee. "The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1Tim 3:15) and not a fool running around with a Bible. Your Bible Alone practice gives doctrinal confusion and continual division. It is clearly of Satan.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Richard aka Redeemed Zoomer ~ Thanks for being you ~ a needed truth teller.

[@susand3668]

Thank you so much for introducing me to Redeemed Zoomer! I appreciate you both so much, with your mutual courtesy and respect, and your knowledge of the issues! May God bless you both!

[@Dram1984]

On the predestination argument I’ve always thought of it as us viewing the past. We know what choices people made in the past but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have free will, just that we have a different perspective in time that allows us to see their choices. God is similar, he knows what everyone will choose not because we don’t have free will but because he has a different perspective that allows him to see our choices.

[@Jerome616]

Yes, this view is often referred to as Molinism.

[@Dram1984]

@@Jerome616 I did not know that, thank you.

[@geochonker9052]

As a Southern Baptist, I have no idea why I am here

[@Б.Сэцэр]

Let the Holy Spirit guide you to the Truth. Baptistry isn't the way.

[@snlescaille]

Me too lol

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

RZ was originally into Rudolph Steiner? It's hard for me to imagine anyone going Calvinist after that! (Also, this was a great video.)

[@vaughanlloydjones3884]

Funny, I didn't know that. I was antroposophist, became Reformed and am becoming Catholic today.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

@@vaughanlloydjones3884 praise God!

[@SashaSteveBlair]

He wasn’t, just baptized as an infant into that context

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

95% of people talking about Calvinism online never actually read The Institutes or at least the Westminster Confession of Faith

[@vaughanlloydjones3884]

I'm not one of those. I have most of the Reformed documents in hard copy. Although I did really understand it better after I had quit. You make assumptions when you are Reformed that mess up the navigation frankly. Sayth me.

[@AveMaria.GratiaPlena]

I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one. I in them and you in me, that they may be completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. It is important for us to struggle for Christian Unity. Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

[@aleckim9337]

I have much to thank Zoomer. He introduced to me the world of theology in a time that all other people around me was just foccusing in "a personal relationship" and often being hyper charismatic, and thanks to him I was able to discover more of the theology world and see that we have objective things to look at and not be in complete ignorance for a more "personal relationship".

[@VeritasVivet]

I commented in RZ’s section that he should have a discussion with you. Everyone replied saying that was never gonna happen. Guess I was right hehehe

[@mikeparker840]

Former Calvinist and now Anglican. Nice dialog guys really appreciate it. We need more unity in the faith and this I believe is where it starts with loving conversations with leaders of the Church.

[@bigdogboos1]

“Not that I’m thinking of becoming Catholic” … seems to be a very prophetic phrase people use when they have been pricked. Look for the conversion in the next year or two lol.

[@sivad1025]

Yeah, this guy reminded me of myself 10 months ago. It goes very suddenly when you get honest about Calvinis. He's already at the phase where he's caveating it into a more Catholic version with single predestination. You can only go so far until you realize you're mimicking Catholicism but rejecting the real deal

[@mindandfist]

literally me a few years ago lol

[@bigdogboos1]

@@mindandfist yup me too a year ago lol

[@Cklert]

@@sivad1025 The good ol' C.S. Lewis approach of getting so close, yet never biting the bullet.

[@josephroehm4600]

This was an awesome conversation. I think this is higher quality than the discussions with James White. Props to RZ! He also has quite humorous videos!

[@paulus809]

4:41 that was exactly my position. against all odds i am becoming a catholic. thank you Jesus Christ🙏❤

[@jesusloveseveryone888]

I’m only a few minutes in, but among all the Protestant denominations, I’ve found Calvinism detestable and heretical. There’s nothing Biblical about that false form of “Christianity”, and most of its members I’ve encountered are proud and cruel. The God of Calvinism is the same God of Islam - fatalistic to the core. Thank you, Trent, for speaking with Calvinists. I’m praying for their conversion to Catholicism. 🙏🏼✝️🕊️📿

[@bruhmingo]

This comment is detestable. I encourage you to have more humility when discussing these issues. I would fear blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

[@TokenWhiteGuyAGR]

James White is a textbook example detestable Calvinism.

[@jaihummel5057]

What about Gavin Ortlund? These are stereotypes and ridiculous generalizations. Calvinists are christian too.

[@jesusloveseveryone888]

@@TokenWhiteGuyAGR, agreed.

[@MarvelGamer2023]

Amen brother

[@EricThomas1996]

At minute 32 right now. Sorry if this gets brought up later. This Calvinist view that "the Elect would have faith" is very scary to me. When we talk to atheists, they ask "why would an all powerful deity create the world?" As Catholics, our obvious response is "God is love" - with the implication that God creates to share in love with His children. Under that Calvinist perspective, I don't know if that would hold water against an atheist. God wouldn't necessarily create out of love, as He's creating the majority of humanity to have no relationship with at all, as He had never intended for them to have faith at all.

[@imbecilicGenius-hn3jo]

Your going to run into alot of problems with a "God is love" approach to most of the old testament. God is loving, but God has chosen some for damnation such as Judas who is stated as the son of perdition and Pharoh who He hardened the heart of in the process of freeing Israel. He hated Esau. He destroyed men, women, and children in the taking of the promised land. Trying to understand the mind of God is beyond us and so trying to understand why God would create us is somewhat a fools errand with no simple answer. But to simply say love or worship doesn't quite fit when the angels were already created to worship and why create a seperate world for us to love Him.

[@HolyHomily]

Predestination is simply a result of the belief that God is all powerful and all knowing. Of course we ourselves don’t see it as a predestined event, but God, who exist outside of space and time, logically would… I don’t think the issue is that deep, and I don’t really think it’s wrong to reject predestination. That would be silly to argue over.

[@sivad1025]

​@@HolyHomilyNo one rejects predestination. We argue because one side understands that all things will happen in one way but are sovereignly aligned in accordance with the free will of man. And the other posits that a theoretically benevolent God has no consideration for the will of man and created most souls with the singular intention of them suffering in hell

[@ChristIsLord7]

When he quotes Jesus saying the sheep hear my voice. I was gonna say that’s exactly why I’m catholic now and no longer non denominational Christian/Baptist anymore. When I went to mass I just felt it was different and after 2 years of researching I became catholic. And that was the last conclusion I thought I would have come up with. I seriously thought Catholics were a cult but no anymore. So I want to ask the Protestant guy have you been to a mass? Have you tried to be a catholic for a month or year? If not then how can you know being Protestant is correct? Giving the logic he used.

[@christafarion9]

Protestant here, went to mass a few times. It's just... a lot of stuff that's not really in scripture. A person who's madly in love with scripture will be constantly thinking to themselves "that's not in the Bible, nor is that, or that, or that, or that. I'm just more interested scripture than another person's non scriptural opinions or traditions. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[@keagaming9837]

Trent and Redeemed Zoomer collabed and debated about Christianity? Amazing! ❤✝️❤️ My two favorite Christian talk KZbinrs talking about Christianity together. I’m just surprised that Trent and RZ didn’t play Minecraft together for this talk. ❤

[@GloriaJesu]

I was waiting for this! Can't wait to watch it! Thank you Mr. Horn.