Triple-T

#tyrellknifeworks
In today's Triple-T (tools, tips and talk) #158, I'll be exploring using a high temp paint instead of stainless foil for heat treating stainless steel.
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[@kennethhaack3619]

I have been using Condursal for a couple of years. I dip the knives and let the excess drip off. I oil quench all my blades and the coating pops off in the quench-lovely. I had previously tried ATP641, but could not get good results from that product 🤷‍♂️

[@T_B]

Does the paint dry-out as you let it, presumably, drip back into the paint can?

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

That’s a good tip, maybe I’ll try that next time. The paint does dry out so leaving the can open for long periods isn’t advisable. Thanks for watching.

[@TonySeverioKnives]

Good tips Denis

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Thanks for watching, Tony!

[@mathieusciascia3551]

Hi. I use condursal regularly. When there are several pieces, I use a spray gun. The deposited layer is regular and thin, and the tempering is more homogeneous. I translate with a bot, sorry for the approximations. Thanks for the triple T👍

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Yeah, I have a spray gun and thought the same. They said to dilute it 4:1 if you spray it. Thanks for watching

[@hainesknives]

This is a great tip. I've never used the foil personally. Steve Schwarzer showed me the spray paint for exhausts that goes up to 2000 degrees. That is what I use on my AEBL. It has works great. I like that this paint you show has a higher temp. Gives more of a buffer. 👍

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Yes, it’s a good option and cheap. I’ll probably use it on 80CRV2 as well to reduce decarb. Thanks for watching.

[@brysonalden5414]

Thanks for reporting your test of this product. Based on how much you used, it sure looks like a less expensive option than the foil, and if the HRCs are essentially the same, it makes sense.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Definitely a great deal and easier compared to foil I think. Thanks for watching, Bryson!

[@billwoehl3051]

No idea where it came from, think it was left in the garage when i moved in, but, just discovered a nice piece of stainless super thin sheet, maybe foil, thought it was roof valley flashing from the shape, about 6" wide and 6' long. No wonder paint a LOT cheaper, use so little of it. You're just putting it in the oven, so, hopefully it works well.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Sounds like a good find. Yes you don’t use much paint at all n the process. Thanks for watching, Bill.

[@nikknives9352]

Very interesting! thank you for the information and your time!

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Glad it was helpful!

[@mannsdan]

i've used krylon's high temp spray paint (they have a couple of variations - I used the one rated at 2300 Degrees F) with some good success!

[@mannsdan]

It would be interesting to see how the krylon compares to the condursal!

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

The Condursal is specifically for this purpose so I’m thinking it’s better than the krylon. It’s meant as a coating to prevent oxygen but krylon isn’t actually for that purpose. It might work though, I’m not sure.

[@byronkennedy7912]

Always great tips and methods for knifemakers and bladesmiths ... Thank You for the share, Denis.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Thanks for watching, Byron!

[@krissteel4074]

I've considered this stuff a while ago, good to see a test result between foil and the coating which I've not seen done anywhere else. The ATP-641 is a bit more common to find and cheaper, I've found it works ok as well but you do need to cut through more decarb with that than you would in foil. Though if you're making dies and complicated forms for heat treating, then you really do need a coating for them and they just won't fit in a foil pouch. So its sort of a much-a-much for a knife maker, if you grind close to finished shapes on some of the harder to work steels full of vanadium that don't take to belts happily, then you're better off with foil. Otherwise on the easier to machine steels like AEBL, 440C and so on, the coatings should be 'good enough' if you do a lot of post heat treat grinding.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

I have ATP but it’s a pain and flakes off too easy. I’ve been told by others to just dip and hang and it costs better with less/No decarb. 👍. Thanks for watching.

[@RileyPierce_]

I really love your channel and you are so inspiring to beginner bladesmiths like me, and i haven't made any damascus patterns yet, but i plan to soon. I am definitely a long way away from touching a stainless steel billet, but this video was sure interesting.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Thanks for following along, Riley!

[@T_B]

Wow!!!! MUCHHHHH cheaper than the foil; remarkably cheaper. Thanks man!! Love the Triple T videos!

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Thanks for following the channel!

[@jamesmihalcik1310]

That is some pretty cool stuff! Thanks for the test!!

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Thanks for watching!

[@trainwon5699]

Thanks for another great tip..👍

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Glad it was helpful, Don! Thanks for watching.

[@richardbranton190]

One of these days my cheap ass is going to get an oven so I can do stainless. I have to agree that paint is much more cost effective and easier to use? Thanks for the video 👍

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

It certainly is cheaper. I’m sold on it. 👍. Thanks for watching, Richard

[@cleppic8963]

Dipping don't work for big blades or when you have only half jar left. Just put more stuff on them with brush and let the extra drip off and just take out bigger drops after bit of hanging. Still need to do some steel foil with magnacut, 1100c not enough for that. It would be interesting to see is there any difference on oil and plate quench with that cordusal. And also what will happen if you do it with out anything to protect the steel. This was a good video because I've been wondering if that cordusal work and now i know. Thanks for that.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Thanks for tuning in

[@mwblades6553]

AEB-L, more than any other steel I have used, needs the cryo to get as much out of the steel as possible. When I test right after heat treatment it usually comes out right at around 60. Then I put it in dry ice and it will test at 62-64. Wait till after your cold treatment to test hardness and you will get a better idea of actual hardness.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Yeah it was much harder after sitting in the freezer. After temper it was almost 60 hrc. Thanks for watching.

[@xthemadplumberx7110]

I’m trying to temper out the hardness nowadays? Hand sanding is terrible on stainless, I almost quit all together because of it. Wouldn’t it be easier to sharpen if it lost some HRC? I just moved from 440c to my first knife of AEB-L and it seems much more manageable but am I wrong on my thinking?

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

@@xthemadplumberx7110 you want that edge hardness though, particularly on chef knives.

[@timhorton555]

I'm trying slip and a water quench. My first stainless was a nitro v blade. I hadn't drilled the holes in the tang. I just threw it in the forge and oil quenched, just to see what would happen. I burned up 2 cobalt drill bits, trying to put those holes in the tang. I finally had to use a small angle grinder cutting disc to get through.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Next time just heat it up with a torch first before you try to drill it. Thanks for watching.

[@shaungreen679]

Hi Dennis I use the paint for some stainless blades and even carbon blades, you need to put a slightly thicker layer of it on there and yoh want have the decarb issue

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

I’ll give it a try a bit thicker next time. Thanks for watching.

[@jeffallen3382]

Would air brush spraying help with covering it? Besides the hassle of cleaning the air brush... It might help when doing large batches?

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Yes, you can certainly spray it. I have a spray gun I can use for it. You have to dilute it 4:1 with xylene though. Thanks for watching.

[@TalRohan]

Useful find, seems like trying foil at all is just expensive and awkward thanks for sharing

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Yeah it is both of those things! 😜. Thanks for watching.

[@TalRohan]

@@TyrellKnifeworks Always informative, wouldn't miss it.

[@joefergerson5243]

Great report! Thank you

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@iolithblue]

Get a hex bolt on that vice handle and run it with an cordless impact wrench

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

I don't need it to run that fast. Thanks for watching.

[@stephenjohnson6841]

Looks like a great alternative to the foil. Btw I'm a little confused Dennis. Today is Saturday not Thursday where I live? 🤣🤣 Anyway thanks again Dennis.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Haha, yeah the days got away from me this week. 😉. Thanks for watching.

[@M13asan]

Very cool, thank you

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Thanks for taking a look!

[@kieranklein2527]

Ive been using ATP 641 as its quite a bit cheaper and has a higher temp range. However it is a bit more fiddly and messy. Everything has its pros and cons I guess. But this paint on stuff looks interesting. 🤔

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

ATP is a clay and it’s a pain. It takes forever to dry and flakes off too easy. This is much more secure of an option. Thanks for watching.

[@kieranklein2527]

@@TyrellKnifeworks I throw it in the oven at 200 to dry it out fast😉

[@mcrich1978]

Ironically I was playing with foil last night too. 😂

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Well this is certainly cheaper. Thanks for watching, Matt!

[@mcrich1978]

@@TyrellKnifeworks that's for sure! The foil did cut me too.

[@jasonvliet-odonataknifeworks]

Good info Denis…do you think you would get even better results if you sprayed it on instead of a foam brush?

[@harrykt6846]

or dip it in the paint

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Several have said dipping is the way to go. Thanks for watching, Jason.

[@gilbertmckown6161]

Try using an air brush so you can get a better even coat. You can get a cheap air brush at harbor freight.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

I’ve got a spray gun already but you need to dilute this 4:1 with xylene in order to spray it. Seemed like too much trouble to me. Thanks for watching.

[@gilbertmckown6161]

@@TyrellKnifeworks oh I didn't know that. That makes sense. Well sorry for the trouble 😊

[@xthemadplumberx7110]

I cut myself terribly bad on ss foil last week. It was bad and still doesn’t look good

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Ouch! I hate that. The Condursal definitely won’t cut you. 😉. Thanks for watching.

[@Feyts_Knive_Making]

In stead of painting it on I dip it in and let the extra drip back in the can. Works better I swear

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

Yeah I’ll try that next time. Thanks for watching.

[@Feyts_Knive_Making]

​@@TyrellKnifeworks Have you tried my suggestion?

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

@@Feyts_Knive_Making Dipping leaves too much on the blade I find. Now I just dip it and gently wipe off the excess with a paper towel. I tend to do 4-8 in a batch so letting it drop into the can isn't feasible.

[@Feyts_Knive_Making]

@TyrellKnifeworks Not trying to be rude, really. But that is kind of the idea to dip it and hang your blad above the can for awhile when your just about ready to quench, then you wel heattreat it. Well that is what my old blacksmith teacher taught me. BUT in his own word "whatever works for you" Thank you for the content and reading this idiot of a knife makers comment... sorry about that

[@pinokio514]

Tyrell Knifeworks 1) I do not understand this and therefore I had one simple and logical question. Why don't you use the foil used again? =) update: 5:38 - I saw you cut foil with scissors. And if you open the foil, the foil will break? 2) Maybe I'm mistaken, but since this is a paint, it is advisable to wipe the knife from the fat with a degreaser. Well, do not hold it in his hands =) All the same human skin constantly emits fat. 3) Possible, you need one knife for control WITHOUT foil and paint p.s. sorry for using google translate.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

You shouldn’t reuse the foil, it degrades when heated. I was holding the tang and I’m not concerned with the handle being hard anyway. Thanks for watching.

[@pinokio514]

​@@TyrellKnifeworks 1) You tested the foil used, does it work worse? I just googled and found about steel 3423. The melting temperature is 1400 degrees Celsius, the structure withstands short -term heating up to 900 Celsius. The operating temperature of the heating of a steel alloy in mechanical indicators reaches 710 degrees Celsius. I don’t know which brand steel is used for foil, so I took a random one. 2) By the way, I had an idea. For melting cast iron, forms (molds) are smeared with liquid glass (liquid silica, potassium silicate - I do not know what word in English is used for this substance, the dictionary gave out several meanings). This is a cheap substance, sold to create concrete protection from water. But it is advisable to take with the maximum concentration. But what if you imprison stainless steel waste with liquid glass? I met on the video that it can quickly be dried with gas (nitrogen, it seems or some kind of well-known gas in cylinders). But it seems like he is dried in the stove.

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

Co2 is super cheap to buy in cylinders. I've often thought of drilling a small hole in my heat treat oven and flooding it with Co2. Anybody tried this?

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

You’d be better off doing this with argon or nitrogen. People do that all the time. Thanks for watching.

[@vandengaaskjolen1821]

Have you ever tried graphite spray for a heat treat coating, or is that an internet hoax that I’m just dumb enough to believe?

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

No, I’ve never tried it or heard of it. I wonder how durable it would be for a heat treat cycle. Thanks for watching

[@polisheverything1970]

Great comparison video Denis, I've been keeping an eye out for you dropping this since our chat on FB. I'll stick with my satanite mix (which I've modified since my post to include a paintable slurry) Condursal is available from GFS here in the UK along with the foil and satanite with the latter being the cheapest option. Again thanks for the comparison and all the best from here in the UK.

[@TyrellKnifeworks]

I’m glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching