Trolls: Dreamworks' Trash Can of Ideology | Big Joel

[@BigJoel]

First off, I’d like to respond to the most frequently given critical comment, “actually the chef is doing it because of such and such.” Most of your explanations seem fine, though a lot of them have holes in them. In particular, I’m not seeing y’all explain why she wants the king to eat a troll so badly in that scene. At any rate, I explicitly say that my point isn’t that no explanation might exist, just that any explanation involves a lot of completely unsaid stuff going on, a very rare thing for a children’s film lol. Anyhow, hope you liked my video about trolls! If you didn't, please don't speak to me or my family. If you did, consider giving me some money on patreon! I do a special patron only livestream every month which is pretty fun lol. Anyhow here's the link www.patreon.com/bigjoel

[@mashedpotatos3750]

I will. Love what you do man!

[@aboxintheblack9530]

Big Joel The Chef is pure ideology!

[@peterprime2140]

How much do I need to give you on Patreon to get a pic of you cosplaying the dude in the thumbnail? Ass included.

[@belele-la3389]

I've always wondered - if you join do you get to see the older videos? Or just the ones from the day you join?

[@aboxintheblack9530]

Peter Prime 10000000000000000$

[@MC-up9nx]

A critique of consumerism, but also don't forget to get your troll movie figurines, pencils, backpacks, shirts, and pre order the Trolls blu-ray!

[@sandjohnson4610]

it is ironic that the apparent statement of the movie is anti-consumerism, yet the movie attempted to reseat trolls as culturally relevant to sell more toys. it's dope trolls aren't a thing again I think they're hideous

[@tigerstripedsinger]

That's because the people who write movies and the people who sell movies have different ideas about what is important

[@danatronics9039]

Capitalism commodifies anti-capitalism

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

That’s just the thing. Trolls is haphazardly written with mixed intentions that leans it more in the realm of a Cars movie than it is a Ratatouille or a Shrek/shrek 2.

[@alucardprinceofgayvampires8526]

Lorax had the same weird problem and it was more offensive because the point of the book

[@therandomstudio8942]

Movie's fine but "because singing killed my grandma" is the funniest line to ever be delivered in cinematic history

[@rootbourne4454]

So true king

[@codyxvasco592]

Fergie singing the national anthem but she explodes midway through the final belt.

[@yourtimetraveleralara]

Yea

[@ARCHIVED9610]

ive seen it on tumblr so much i love it

[@BryWithAWhy]

The Chef doesn't eat a troll because she knows rule number one: you never get high off your own supply

[@Reirae]

Came to say this haha, glad you already did!

[@brucehc4975]

Scarface reference

[@Roboshi2007]

I mean yeah, this movie is clearly not about consumerism, it's an anti-drug movie. The Chef even has a fanny pack/bum bag which is something associated with drug dealers. And how does a dealer get control over their addicts? By controlling the supply!

[@princesspikachu3915]

@@Roboshi2007 exactly. I never seen this movie as anything else other than an anti-drug PSA.

[@mechajay3358]

That's actually Genius.

[@ShutItKyle]

“Troll induced pleasure.” But enough about Twitter.

[@jaschabull2365]

I'd have thought that was "troll-induced agony".

[@blackittysamurai]

Lol! Wish I'd said that.

[@AltairBlue]

I'm crying

[@zayatamburelli5322]

This point would probably fit better with 4chan.

[@FTMothman]

I’m thinking about something entirely different than you are, aren’t I?

[@nopenope620]

Isn't trolls like drugs. They make people happy if you consume them even if your life is shit. And that will explain why she didn't eat them. Drug dealers don't use their own drugs. It'so funny how many people started writing something like "no, you're incorrect, actually my drug dealer uses drugs

[@DaveVaderify]

Huh, interesting perspective

[@thomasstone3480]

given the use of coloring that seemed like a clear metaphor- bright happy color things that will bring joy to your dull grey life- but drugs work as a metonym for consumption anyway, and the message looks much uglier if narrowed that way- the difference between 'joy is not found in capitalism' and 'you should do yoga instead of taking your depression meds', basically the drug stand ins being living things works better for the broader interpretation, too- consumerism is predatory, and that's the problem as much or more as the artificiality of the joy it inducies

[@shponglechunch]

I actually thought this lmaooo like shrooms or something lol

[@katherinehemken5544]

Who says that? All the drug dealers I know use their own drugs.

[@chaosvii]

Generally the most predatory (ie profit-driven & controlling) drug dealers that dilute their product with whatever works (typically poisons) or the ones that view their customers with contempt fit that mold. So this is less a characteristic tied to drug dealers specifically but more a characteristic tied to business operators that recognize what they can get away with and proceed to do so regardless of harm dealt.

[@Zero2HeroX]

Talking about ideology in a movie where one of the characters farts glitter.

[@gabrieleugeniomenegazzo9243]

É cada coisa que esse povo inventa

[@riograndedosulball248]

Such is life

[@dontcheckinsideyourcloset]

@Gabriel Eugênio Menegazzo psé kkj

[@passiveaggresivesquirrel2052]

I guess u could try shitting glitter but idk about farts, so your point kind of stands. eh

[@uncertaintytoworldpeace3650]

What you've never used our censored internet before? It's effectively a useless machine...

[@WebsiteTourist]

Troll Proll Prol Prole Proletariat Bergen Burgen Bourgen Bourge Bourgeoisie Coincidence?! Eh, most probably

[@eylon1967]

i think the bergen - Bourgeoisie isn't a coincidence. bergen is literrally cities in german, which is the litteral defenition of Bourgeoisie afterall.

[@JosiahMcCarthy]

@@eylon1967 Berg is actually hill or mountain in German, while Burg is fortification, Castle, stronghold, or city.

[@Nyrkvennasogur]

The troletariat vs tue bergeouisie

[@pythonjava6228]

Loooool 😂

[@pinksnake8001]

Troll = troll. Bergen = mountain.

[@planet_dawsey595]

Movie: Material objects aren’t the key to happiness Also movie: Feel free to buy the merchandise!!!

[@harmonicpsyche8313]

we truly do live in a society

[@dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668]

Trolls aren't objects, check your privelege. Enough bs, it's a children's movie, politics don't belong.

[@tarvoc746]

@Renagadde IKR P O S A D I S M I N T E N S I F I E S

[@missmoxie9188]

Good point

[@cantthinkofaname5046]

Tbh, there is a difference between buying a t shirt that is merchandise of a movie you like, and consumerism at its worst. There are shades to this issue, I don’t mind them making toys

[@aveaoz]

This is one of those movies I have no idea who the target audience is for.

[@od3910]

It's for big Joel obviously

[@aveaoz]

@@od3910 every movie is for big joel tho

[@abaeza123]

Children? Honestly, I think big joel is overthinking this one

[@abbylarkspur]

Me, it's me. I love this movie.

[@sirensongss]

Not just a kids movie, but a kids movie aimed at kids who have iPads and KZbin. It tries to compete with that energy visually, and musically

[@SarahZ]

hearing u call slavoj zizek thicc made me feel as if i too had eaten a troll

[@sadiazaman1296]

I can't believe you're here! Hi!

[@leonmayne797]

You're everywhere.

[@yerdasellsavon9232]

Pa-ure trolling

[@varisleek3360]

woah z comment w only 4 comments

[@killerbug05]

@@varisleek3360 5

[@sampagano205]

Big Joel Will Be In Trolls 3.

[@peterprime2140]

Big Joells 3

[@megalyssa]

I immediately searched through the comments for this reference

[@kieranstark7213]

*200th* And so will A Dose of Buckley! XD

[@masorobo5773]

he becomes big troel

[@IrvingIV]

th- three?!

[@TheWonkster]

It’s also a weird thing that you could also see the whole “happiness is inside you” speech as someone who has a normal brain telling a bunch of people with this horrible genetic chronic depression to “stop being depressed, you don’t need a thing to feel better, you should just be better”

[@angela.luntian]

Old comment, but i suppose this theme fit vices more than drugs or consumerism in general

[@vezanmatics]

But they'd still be correct. Things *don't* make you feel better. I understand how it can come across as condescending but what's the alternative, "you're unfixable, take happy pills until you die!" or "you're unfixable, just wallow until you die!" It's more uplifting to believe that the power to become better lies within you. At least it's a goal! The act of resisting the power you hold to improve yourself can have parallels drawn to the guy from They Live, what do you have to lose by trying at least a little bit

[@CorHellekin]

This is such a willfully bad faith criticism lol. The film is much more a PSA about drugs and consumerism, but even then, this scene is meant as hopeful and liberating, not as an "oh so you have depression? Well, fuck you, you can just choose to not have it anymore."

[@MistyDusker]

@@CorHellekin Yeah, I find it annoying people will read into a children's movie like it's some big fuck you to depression or whatever. Seems like such a big thing on twitter to look for the worst interpretation of a story. Reminds me of MrEnter's Turning Red review where he gets upset the movie doesn't mention 9/11.

[@uncertaintytoworldpeace3650]

Please don't explain how someone with a brain appears magically in this sea of genetic fuckups then as your ideology hinges on lies and ignorance?

[@reeseadams7063]

Big Troel

[@kieranstark7213]

Awsum 1

[@beanson2323]

Well played, Dalton Adams

[@xedusk]

I always assumed that she didn’t want to be queen before being thrown out of the village. People looked up to and respected her, so she had nothing to gain. I thought she only wanted to become queen out of revenge for being thrown out and so that she could more permanently secure her place in the village. My thoughts on her evil plan were that she would make the village thankful to her for bringing back the trolls and then kill the king. Everyone would love her so much for bringing back all the trolls that they wouldn’t object to her taking the throne. I also don’t think this plan would have worked as well if she tried it at the beginning of the film. We can only assume that Trollstice was thing before the chef became the chef and so the villagers didn’t have as much of a reason to accept her as queen, since she’d just be the chef where she’s seen more like a savior after returning with the trolls.

[@sofia.eris.bauhaus]

as a 90s kid, i remember troll dolls and how great they tasted.

[@dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668]

I prefer the taste of furbies tbh

[@towelgirl21]

Lucky! My dogs ate ours before we got a chance.

[@Unpoeticirony]

They came with happy meals once

[@rannabanna5912]

It wasn’t until your final point about the chef, that she doesn’t attempt/want to eat the trolls, that it clicked for me: It’s about addiction. The Bergens behave like addicts-literally miserable until they consume a drug-like substance. She has seen behind the curtain since being banished and knows she can control the population by controlling the supply. The murder/coup plot is, I think, just shorthand so the kids know she’s the big bad. Or the sooner she gets the king hooked, the more easily she can control him and subsequently his supporters. I dunno it just maps pretty well that way imho.

[@prettypleasewithsugarontop4858]

Ranna Banna that was my interpretation as well

[@Roboshi2007]

yeah Joel fucked up here.

[@CaseyShontz]

Wow that makes way more sense than most of the interpretations here

[@superdark336]

Im getting real "Why dont you just try to be happy" vibes abt depression from this film and it makes me a bit iffy.

[@chuckbatman5]

It's just a movie that has the most surface level ideas about happiness, I don't think it's specifically trying to criticize people with depression but because it's ideas about happiness are so childish and lacking in substance it comes off that way to anyone who's ever dealt with any sort of prolonged emotional struggle

[@kaylemathewcomendador7614]

I think this movie is aiming at those "eat/get something to make you happy" type of people if you ask me. You know, those crazed merch buyers.

[@MsScarletwings]

Superdark33 yeah and the whole trolls as happy inducing drugs metaphor really soured the message for me. It probably wasn’t intentional, but the delivery almost came off as anti-depressant demonizing propaganda. “Happiness isn’t something that you just put inside you, it’s already there” would be a deeply fucked up thing to say to anyone who has a genuine neurochemical imbalance that’s hindering their ability to feel that “inner happiness”

[@bluureil2188]

Same. The movie felt really flat when it came to addressing happiness. It seems to define happiness as the one extroverted idea that "parting and singing make you happy so do that you sad loser"™. It's not as if a kids movie can't address something like loss or depression *cough* inside out *cough* or understand that everyone has their own way of expressing themselves *COUGH* SHREK *COUGH* so it ended up being the fart joke ridden sparkle infested parallel to a girl named Amber telling you to throw away your medication and just be happy.

[@LordRydag]

Trying to be happy is a very important part of treating depression though.

[@sarahharman9879]

Nothing beats the irony of the the movies message being about anti-consumerism, contrasted to the sheer amount of awful merch in every single store

[@mike.6092]

Honestly it seems like they're giving the "aha ur so smart and sexy" award to anyone nowadays

[@TheMadwomen]

Przymiotnik Maybe because more people are deserving of that reward nowadays.

[@maschaorsomething]

@@TheMadwomen Except me

[@sourpuss1455]

@@maschaorsomething you get the "you're not very smart but you're still sexy" award

[@fring9594]

@@maschaorsomething why not?

[@nunkatsu]

That award reminds me of people like Schafrillas Productions.

[@martenmaarten]

one thing that came to mind when you were talking about the chefs dubious plans to become queen was something along the lines of the delusional american dream. she was convinced that simply by providing the consumables, just by doing her job, she was somehow doing a grande scheme that would put her in ruling position, literally from rags to riches. you said there were many unknowns about this, but alternatively it was simply all a delusion she got obsessed with through the time of her exile, planning to "girlboss" her way into luxury, using a system that in actuality assumes every member to remain in their position with no real opportunity for upward mobility (hence her only being referred to as chef)

[@bepisthescienceman4202]

Maybe the reason why she is just called the chef is because that's how scoity sees people they just see them as what they do and not who they are

[@rebeccatoday]

Big Joel: And, just looking at the premise, it’s already kinda obvious, isn’t it? The movie is about consumerism. Me, someone who has never seen Trolls: That doesn’t sound right, but I don’t know enough about Trolls to dispute it.

[@WiloPolis03]

Big Joel: A new movie came out recently. Viewers: Is it about trolls? Big Joel: No. It's about consumerism, easily. Viewers: That doesn't sound right. Big Joel: Well, it's true.

[@BigJoel]

Lol I’d definitely watch it. I think you’ll find that it’s pretty obvious but I didn’t wanna dive in too deep on something I didn’t care about

[@EngelSpiel]

“That’s bullshit but I believe it.”

[@DBArtsCreators]

@@BigJoel Quite a few disagree with you and point out its primarily about drug use and the consequences of drug use, with the chef being equivalent to a drug dealer (while the trolls are the drugs and the rest of the bergin are the addicts).

[@BigJoel]

DBArtsCreators Yea I mean it’s fine to disagree but I think people are making a mistake here. If the trolls were drugs, characters would be addicted to them. But no character is, most have never even tried one. People are just saying they’re drugs cause consuming them makes Bergen happy. But consuming lots of things makes people happy, and the nature of a consumer culture is the belief that various objects are necessary for happiness. I think it’s much better to understand trolls as a metaphor for any object that you are assured will bring you pleasure and fill the holes in your life. And that can be drugs or something else. Another way of putting this is that trolls are literally drugs in the movie, but that doesn’t mean their existence is exclusively a commentary on drug use

[@flexican5399]

Big Joel: "This movie is obviously about consumerism" Me: *FuCkInG wHaT!*

[@5gonza541]

He makes the kind of analysis that your most hated English teacher assigned you to do on a text or video that clearly didn't hold, or meant to hold any deeper meaning

[@kristinemalmedal8399]

As someone living in Bergen, this was a bizarre viewing experience.

[@rob9726]

Should I move there so I can be among my people?

[@guidoferri8683]

I can't imagine Sigrid or Aurora eating trolls alive

[@kaggapu]

Bergen-Belsen or what 🥴

[@Leftistattheparty]

The Chef could be kind of an allegory for those people who are part of the working class and uphold the capitalist system because they think they will get into the capitalist class one day. The temporarily embarrassed millionaire. This really wouldn't explain why she wouldn't consume a troll but it would explain why she is so insistent on the system being intact and thinking she has lots of gain even when in reality she doesn't.

[@autobotstarscream765]

And why she became a crazy-ass drug queenpin?

[@fredricknoe3114]

Yeah the profile checks out.

[@askatuproductions]

Oh man Trolls is my favorite comunist allegory

[@MultiCommissar]

Throwing commies off helicopters is true happiness.

[@EngelSpiel]

Wait, I thought the Smurfs were meant to be the communists? Come to think of it, I could see this movie’s script being originally a Smurfs script, including the plot revolving around eating Smurfs/Trolls.

[@zoushaomenohu]

"I already am eating...from the trash can all the time! The name of this trashcan IS! IDEOLOGY!"

[@diegosanchez894]

pure eedeeology

[@Personal_Chizo]

I had to read it in Peter Coffin's voice.

[@clairewithbanjo4992]

*Sniffing intensifying*

[@lefteyereport6354]

Goddammit you stole my comment

[@XMrSurrealisticX]

First think that came to mind when i saw the "Chef" character design (especially here when paused at 9:10) was: "Oh, she must be some kind of priest!" The white/gold colour scheme of her "uniform" could be interpreted as clerical + the weird shape of her hat (not a traditional chef hat! More like a satirized version of something an orthodox patriarch would wear... Maybe a commentary on organized religions as "gatekeepers of hapiness"? :)

[@Predator20357]

Broke: The movie is about Drugs Woke: This is about Capitalism/Consumerism Ascension: This is about organized Religion

[@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770]

There are so many DEEP messages in the Trolls lore.

[@Locadelly]

Watching this movie with my Mormon baby cousins... this was genuinely also my first thought about her character LOL

[@niteowl9491]

I feel like the Chef is sort of a consumerism spirit, if you will. Her aim isn't to obtain happiness for herself, but rather literally force it down the gullets of everyone around her. By obtaining trolls and bringing back trollstice, she can hold that happiness addiction over everyone, and, in fact, by not partaking in it herself, she maintains that control and position of power (something she once held 20 years ago, but times have since changed). Kinda reminds me of Star Trek DS9's Vorta-Jem'Hadar relationship, of all things, which in turn is just a metaphor for the war on drugs and creating addiction in a population as a means of control. Capitalism is cool huh?

[@Gazzitas]

A bit like how Elon Musk is a sleep-deprived workaholic, perhaps?

[@1mrs1]

I came here to say this essentially. The chef doesn't want troll happiness, she wants to rule the kingdom and get back at the Bergen royals for casting her out. She sees that she can do this by having exclusive access to trolls and dolling them out as she sees fit. But for this to work, she needs to get others to know how good eating a troll is, especially the king. While it's been 20 years since any Bergen has eaten a troll, the king has never eaten one.

[@draxiss1577]

She really reminds me of the 'temporarily inconvenienced millionaire' mentality. She's upholding a system that has abused her in the hopes that *this* time, she'll be on top.

[@dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668]

Ask a Communist escapee and they'll give you a fair assessment of which is the better system.

[@antenna_prolly]

@@dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668 just don't be kidding yourself about where death squads come from. Capitalists bankroll them to topple democratically-elected socialist gov's so they can perpetuate the Venezuela myth and work us all to the bone on pretty lies. The socialism of today is a far cry from the authoritarianism China's got going on.

[@dstinnettmusic]

My daughter's favorite movie is Trolls so I appreciated this. My least favorite part of the movie is how it just FEELS like it was written around 5 or so music videos for the songs they bought the rights to.

[@PocketDeerBoy]

“They live” sounds kind of like plato’s cave from the way you’re explaining it

[@genericgorilla]

Well, zizek's work on ideology is a a reconciliation with the subjective experience, so yeah.

[@PocketDeerBoy]

@@genericgorilla cool! i have had 1 whole philosophy class.

[@genericgorilla]

@@PocketDeerBoy me too but i just happened to have some cursory knowledge on zizek as well, really this is all i know about philosophy

[@rob9726]

@@genericgorilla Honestly, don't feel bad. It takes about a year of study just to translate Zizek's jargon into readable theory. Anyone who thinks they can read Zizek off the cuff without a Zizekian translation guide for coke-addled Slovenians is a big-brain r/iamverysmart wannabe. Saying you can't read Zizek correctly isn't even a humble statement considering it's *the norm*.

[@EngelSpiel]

Isn’t The Matrix another notable example of Plato’s Cave in film?

[@tonylu2471]

Chef doesn't use the product. She's like a drug dealer. Or serving others makes her happy.

[@saldownik]

She yearns for power. And correctly suspects that happiness detracts from the pursuit of power.

[@mashedpotatos3750]

We must protect Big Joel at alll costs

[@deadinside7750]

I'd die for him in the revolution

[@mashedpotatos3750]

@@deadinside7750 God speed

[@deadinside7750]

@@mashedpotatos3750 Godspeed Spider-Man

[@kieranstark7213]

He can protect himself, but that doesn't mean he won’t be protected by other people!

[@nukiradio]

Is that kit mansley?

[@FratFerno]

Is it just me, or did this not have a conclusion? No "Chef knows deep down that Trolls aren't the only source of happiness and is instead a sadist" or "Chef is so used to not eating Trolls that she believes that only royalty should" or whatever. Trolls is Weird, but this video is weirder.

[@roza2633]

right like i was so confused when the video ended? like what i'm left with is just the idea that chef was a badly written character with no clear motivation. and that can't be the argument here if the dude really likes the character? like this feels unfinished.. like an idea for a video rather than a finished work

[@frenzy2061]

I feel the same way about a lot of videos on this channel. Sometimes they pose some interesting questions but I feel like they're never concluded properly. I come away not knowing what the main point of the video was a lot of the time.

[@fabianavalentino6304]

@@frenzy2061 this is honestly why I follow and unfollow and follow again so often. But eh, I end up coming back, the questions he asks are interesting at least

[@ivrxr8693]

I know this is old but his point is Chef, in the metaphor that Trolls constructs, is the epitome of capitalist realism. She perpetuates the consumerist dystopia of Bergenville,while understanding its faults, and never actually caring about her own well being. She cares more about her place in the system than whether or not the system is good. When she force feeds the king, what she stands to gain is a reminder that this is how things are, and that to construct a better system is fruitless, so it is best to rule over the one that exists now.

[@zacknicley8150]

In the context of They Live as a film his resistance to putting on the sunglasses may be his resistance to seeing the undesirable truth of the world around him, but I put forward that the character’s motivation in that scene is that he said “No” yet his friend keeps insisting despite his obvious expressed will against it. Why would he put up such a struggle when his friend simply asks him to put on sunglasses? It’s not about sunglasses, it’s about his personal will being invaded by another person’s will. And it is because it’s such a small request that makes the invasion of his will so extreme. His friend is trying to dominate his personal boundary in the minutest detail for seemingly no reason except his offhanded whim. His struggle against putting on the sunglasses is a struggle against letting someone else’s mere *whim* dominate your *entire* will. Nice video too. I’ve heard good things about the sequel, Troll 2. Maybe you could do a video about it.

[@lavamatstudios]

This isn't satisfactory. I don't see where you draw this distinction between "whim" and "will." You could just as well say that it's the deliberate *will* of the main character to have his friend put these sunglasses on, and a mere *whim* on the part of the friend to go "eh... no."

[@DeoMachina]

@@lavamatstudios Bodily autonomy is sacrosanct though, it is 100% never a mere whim when you exert control of your own body.

[@no_peace]

I think it tends to be a little more complicated than that...i was going to write out a long story but i gave up so I'll summarize. Once i asked my SO to do something small, and it was small enough and familiar enough and he had done it a hundred times, but i asked in a weird context that made him think i might have a hidden motive. So the more i was like "what on Earth why not" the more he buckled down and refused to do it. Later he told me he thought i was trolling him basically, lol I don't reckon that's the same rationale the guy in the video used but I think it's pretty common

[@no_peace]

And btw I wasn't trying to get him to do something he wasn't comfortable with; I was unsure what had happened to make him say no. (I wanted him to pay attention to my dog, lol. It's a long story and no one cares)

[@Silburific]

That... actually makes a good deal of sense. People have an innate desire to be in control, even if that control come down to something as simple as pushing a button. That's the whole reason reverse psychology is a phenomena, after all. I probably never would have thought of it that way.

[@fredpertrench2460]

“His violent reflex to not understand what’s happening before his eyes” *trolls starts playing*

[@belele-la3389]

The way you called Slavoj Zizek's brain thicc, heck the fact you mentioned Slavoj Zizek in a video about Trolls, slapped my whole bod.

[@keyboardcorrector2340]

I am shooketh.

[@alastorlapid2365]

He's not gonna ever live that down is he.

[@zopps8529]

its really funny that when the movie actually tried to be sad, it failed and ended up being hilarious. the whole “singing killed my grandma” scene was absolutely ridiculous, i couldnt help but laugh at it

[@alexbennet4195]

I mean, that scene was clearly also meant to be funny

[@zopps8529]

@@alexbennet4195 no not really the parts that were were just poorly timed. also that comment is 3 years old 😭😭😭

[@roxasdog2016]

Ya know, I wasn't exactly expecting to see a comparison between They Live and Trolls, but hey, you never know what you're gonna get on a Big Joel upload day.

[@blarg2429]

Can we call Big Joel Upload Day Joelstice from now on?

[@roxasdog2016]

@@blarg2429 Yes. Yes, we very much can and should.

[@blarg2429]

@@roxasdog2016 Then I wish you a slightly belated happy Joelstice.

[@muticere]

I'm glad you didn't tear apart this movie, it's one I'm super fond of. It's weirdly compelling and I like the animation style and aesthetic quite a bit.

[@restingsadface]

movie: "happiness is something that's inside of you, you'll find a way to be happy!" depression: ... depression: "wanna see me do it again ?" edit: wow i've never gotten so many likes before, thank all of you guys so much! edit: okay so it has come to my attention that some people didn't find my joke very funny, thus decided attacking me was an appropriate way to respond to me for trying to make a joke because clearly i'm not funny. this is just a reminder to please be nice to people on the internet, you never know someone's situation and for all you know you might be making it worse. and it's seriously not okay to tell someone to kill themselves

[@chilli1472]

she also says “sometimes you just need someone to help you find it(the happiness)”

[@blarg2429]

@@chilli1472 Yeah but depression isn't happiness being hidden, it's a neurological inability to be happy for a while. It's a disease. The happiness doesn't go somewhere else then come back, it simply doesn't always exist.

[@maschaorsomething]

@@blarg2429 Illness rather than disease. Disease is something you catch, right?

[@blarg2429]

@@maschaorsomething Valid distinction.

[@Mewobiba]

@@chilli1472 The fish are dead.

[@beatofromuminekorealnotcli4574]

why do I want this guy to read Homestuck so much

[@rob9726]

@SomethingScanning gold.

[@baltofarlander2618]

You don't. Lefties screwed it enough, completely misunderstanding it.

[@jimjamjingo791]

@@baltofarlander2618 This comment is a year old, but I am really interested to hear what your interpretation of Homestuck is, seeing that it is ostensibly opposed to the mainstream understanding, and how 'lefties' were able to ruin it.

[@Crocogatorz]

The Chef's goal is to essentially save & enforce Bergen happiness. She's not interested in her next fix; She's genuinely concerned about the state of happiness for the Bergens, even after her own excommunication. To her, consumerism (consumption of Trolls) is the key to Bergen happiness. She wants everyday to be Bergen Christmas, because of how miserable their lives are, and because of how much Bergen Christmas meant to everyone before the Troll truce. She's the antagonist because the cost of this rampant consumerism would come at the exploitation and possible extinction of Troll-kind. Her goodwill motivation for happiness is only concerned with Bergen-kind (which speaks to class solidarity/ethnocentrism). The King is a troll-sympathizer and thus an obstacle to her goals, so he either has to demonstrate 100% conviction to her plan (by eating a troll) or he has to be removed. Idk why I'm even reading into this lol.

[@markparkinson6947]

The way you describe the theme of consumerism lends itself more to the theme of addiction, which I have particularly noticed.

[@CoffeeNRoblox]

Consumerism itself is an addiction

[@huxley3043]

ive never seen trolls before and holy shit i didnt think it was that dark

[@LucasMBoysOurRoy]

It’s a pretty strange movie. Seems like a fun movie to watch while drunk

[@austinreed7343]

I don’t think they intended this.

[@aritown5802]

my very stupid theory; the chef's idea is to make the king eat a troll, because she knows it will boost his, and the entire kingdoms, appreciation of her. it's not the general idea of her getting people to eat trolls that she'll become queen. it's the fact that it'll give her a good reputation. further, if she killed the king and nobody knew it was her, they'd all be looking for someone to replace him as ruler-- and who better to lead the kingdom than the one who brought happiness, was praised by everyone including the king? that's the only reasoning behind her deranged antics that i could think of. it's all just about making her look great in front of everyone so they'll pick her to be a replacement for the throne.

[@PieEater1492]

"blat. blat. blat. You're the queen" - Big Joel dropping the hottest bars

[@nullskey8370]

i think the forcing the guy to eat a troll is very much like parents forcing their vision of life on the children, some people work on the “because it’s always been like this” mentality and pass it down, in her exile she held her core views even tighter but in the meantime time passed and people changed in a way, she’s not trying to get him addicted she’s trying to make him like her, you’re supposed to eat the troll he happy and then never again, and she’s supposed to be The Chef. her plot to power seems very much a desperate attempt to have things go as they’re supposed to and if she has to be queen then she’ll be queen bc she knows better. i think

[@JeevesAnthrozaurUS]

The Chef AKA "Temporarily Embarrassed Queen"

[@bidaubadeadieu]

Yeah, that's where I thought he was gonna go too! The idea that consumers (the chef) more readily imagine themselves as controlling capital (trolls) than they do the destitute (happinessless bergen masses) even though they have far more in common with the latter.

[@rob9726]

Does the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" perspective really apply when the Chef begins the movie in a unique, elevated position of power? I thought that discourse only applied to the poor empathizing too quickly with the rich, which I think is pretty ridiculous regardless.

[@ToastyJunebugs]

So is the plot to Trolls just the Smurfs with more Gargamells?

[@kittysune1]

Dianna Stroud Lol I thought the same thing.

[@TheDancingHyena]

As for why she can't just kill the king and become queen and not bother with the troll stuff: no, she can't do that because what gives her power is being the chef. If there's no trolls, no one needs her services and she has no power. She can't kill the king because she would have no power base from which to become queen. It would just be like if some rando killed the king. He wouldn't magically become the next ruler. You end with "this is just what she does." That's great, Joel, now what does this mean? What does this tell us about the authors of the work and the media climate from which it arose? I feel like you went halfway with this one.

[@TheDancingHyena]

The whole point of a video essay is to finish the essay, finish the thesis. You're saying videos should only lay out the facts and never do any analysis, and instead leave that to the reader. Ok, then... Secondly: writers usually care about their craft so I give the author the benefit of the doubt when analyzing works. I also think Joel made it clear in his video that if she did actually care about her ideology, she would be scarfing down trolls left and right. The fact that she doesn't means either that A) her motivations lie elsewhere (I think it's the attainment of power) or if there really is nothing for her to gain, then the writers used her character simply as a foil to the theme of the piece, simply as a way of telling the audience: consumerism bad; buy tickets! In other words, I thought Joel was going to go down the path of saying that anti-consumerism is just an excuse for making this movie. The movie doesn't actually say anything substantiative about consumerism, it just says: consumerism bad. This is along the same lines of thinking that Lindsay Ellis made in her recent video Woke Disney. The idea is to commercialize "wokeness" without really compromising capitalism's hegemony by actually making people "woke." That would involve legitimate criticism, which is also political and therefore hurts pocketbooks.

[@quintonchurch4064]

@@groovygreet I think it's possible she previously underestimated the fervency of that ideology. She didn't realize how much material impact it could have if that ideology were challenged, but when she was exiled for it, she saw the power it held over the public. If she were a decent person, she would have, as you say, tried to disprove the ideology. But she's not a decent person, she's a self-serving profiteer, and instead the lesson she took from that experience was that she could weaponize a baseless belief among the public to seize power. Basically, she's Ronald Reagan and the bergens are the religious right.

[@ramzikawa734]

I don’t know I thought the way it was framed Joel was kind of trying to imply her ideological binding to the consumption of trolls was wrapped up in some notion of duty. Like the managerial class in general. They’re not doing cocaine, they’re not partying, they’re not experiencing the heights of sodom and gamorrah as the world is burning that’s the stakeholders. The professional managerial class gets off on shaving off that 0.3% on the budget, that 2% rise in productivity. The point is being responsible for the joy of others. Like clearly the queen subplot is cause the writers are lazy, but the idea that there are people out there who will participate in brutal systems of repression for a reward that they will only witness other people experience? Those people are very real and they are the weirdest possible power grabbers.

[@TheDancingHyena]

@@ramzikawa734 If there is actually any commentary in the movie about consumerism besides "it's bad," this would be it. But I feel like the movie never made that explicit when it could have.

[@TheDancingHyena]

@@IMatchoNation I mean, your argument was that Joel wants us to think for ourselves instead of spoon-feeding us analysis, so I took that to mean that you don't enjoy "spoon-fed analysis," i.e. actually finishing theses and saying something substantiative about the subject. No need to get upset, I was just pointing out how it's not out of place to look for the analysis in a video essay.

[@witchypoo7353]

Movie: Kids, you don’t need things to be happy Toy Company: Oh God... WHAT HAVE WE DONE?!

[@ScrewedTimeLord]

Trollstice?! More like JOELSTICE! am I right, ladies?

[@sourgreendolly7685]

AAAAY

[@kieranstark7213]

More like “Trolololololololololololstice”, amirite?! 😁

[@toyodacar8718]

What ladies?

[@ScrewedTimeLord]

Yoda car ladies is a word that generally refers to a group of women. I hope this helps

[@5gonza541]

Money may not buy happiness, but poverty doesn't buy anything

[@scrambled5948]

The chef was originally going to have a villain song about how she cooks trolls but it was cut from the final version. If it wasn't cut I think she would be the best Disney villain in years and she wasn't even created by Disney!

[@SpaceCadetTafmo]

8:00 going to have to start using “Ding Ding O’clock”

[@heathercalun4919]

I understand playfully ribbing Cinema Sins, but these people who are saying it's "ruining film criticism" are off their nut. Cinema Sins is doing it's own thing off in the corner. The dings aren't even really pointing out that the movie is bad so much as it's just a sound effect that gets played after every bullet point, like a laugh track. It's mindless, but you either like it or you don't care. Hate is not an emotion that can or should be connected to that channel, especially when there's so much stuff on KZbin that is way more OVERTLY dangerous.

[@FirstnameLastname-zq4rt]

Okay calm down, Heather, it’s just a joke. If you wanted to write an essay there are better places to do it than the KZbin comment section.

[@heathercalun4919]

@@FirstnameLastname-zq4rt There's really not.

[@JoshucaVA]

"One of my favorite kids movie antagonists." How many kids movies have you seen. Because this line physically hurts me.

[@eggynack]

Dude's seen a ton. Chef is great though. She just so weird.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

LOCAL COPE Da fuq?

[@JoshucaVA]

She's bland, predictable, and boring af.

[@MissXHiem]

i loved this movie but i honestly didn't get a consumerist message from it, rather an anti-drug/alcohol message, it even parrots some AA sentiments, like the "happiness isn't something you put inside you, you just have to find someone"; really echoes a lot of stuff taught in rehab about how human connection is the opposite of addiction the chef is a perpetuator if the kind of culture that doesnt condemn or even celebrates social alcoholism , even down to trying to keep the prince and bridgett separated, bc alone they are unhappy and more susceptible to substance abuse great video though!!!! i love your work! and i have a whole new way of reading the movie next time i watch now c':

[@weekendjail1417]

Definitely agree that substance abuse would makes the most sense as the main point of any social commentary in this film (that isn't directly on the nose towards kids). Unfortunately everything has to in some way be a critique of Capitalism in way too many videos. It's fine where it undoubtedly fits... but the market is over-saturated to the point that I feel like a good chunk of YT is like living in the Paris Commune.

[@sailorplanetmars6103]

It's also fair to say that the gap between parodic levels of hyper-consumerism and substance abuse is very, very small. Ultimately, a drug is just a commodity with some biochemical bonuses. The difference between an addicted drug user, spending all their resources obtaining one thing that brings them happiness, and a consumer, spending all their resources on somethings (maybe one, maybe many) that they are told will bring them happiness, can be a hard one to parse, especially with layers and layers of metaphor in the middle.

[@MissXHiem]

@@sailorplanetmars6103 thats absolutely true

[@christianmccauley7340]

I still can’t believe Trolls 2: World Tour decided to tackle _SYSTEMIC RACISM_

[@cadencenavigator958]

Today, Big Joel's big brain idea: the movie Trolls is like the movie They Live But for real, it seems obvious to me what they have to gain from fighting this hard. The status quo. He doesn't want to put on the shades because he knows, perhaps instinctively, that once he does he will see things in an all new light, and that there is no going back. Similarly, chef wants the king to eat a troll so that she can go back to the status quo; she wants things to be, in a sense, normal again.

[@chilli1472]

when he puts on the glasses he’s essentially seeing his doctor about a slightly suspicious lump

[@caryssonford]

They want to stay in the Matrix

[@no_peace]

@@chilli1472 haaaaaaaaaaa

[@frenzy2061]

Yeah I thought the glasses thing was a metaphor for people prefering to live oblivious to an ugly truth.

[@klisterklister2367]

this movie is that scene in the little mermaid when sebastian is about to get eaten/cooked but stretched out into a movie

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

I mean wouldn’t the motive be implied that she’d be just as resentful of the Kingdom as she is with the trolls? I’d just assume once upon a time, she didn’t care for power but her exile twisted her into what we see? Then again, I don’t really look too deep into a movie like trolls.

[@erinyoulater]

Its possible the Chef only wants to be queen as revenge for being exiled

[@Dakotaidk]

Obviously this an analogy for the underground opium trade Duh

[@nukiradio]

Could be an allegory for how easily having capital gives you special societal privilege

[@artandstuffproductions3640]

At 7:00, it’s the newfound desperation of the people. She believes that by satiating that desperation, she can become the most powerful person, like the leaders of so-called “rebellions” that really just want to have power for themselves. Surprisingly, a good example of this is Adolf Hitler (bear with me), who upon realizing that the German populace only wanted to be out of their economic depression, found someone to blame for it and promised that they would be able to escape the depression if they followed him. Of course, instead of economic depression, it is just normal depression in the film “trolls”

[@achyka3802]

I didn't watch the movie but I'm guessing: -she returns home with the trolls -gets everyone hooked on the troll happiness -manipulates the new king into making sure she's the only one who can provide the troll happiness -kills him -plays the whole "oh no if here were only someone competent and loved who could inherit the throne, someone who you all associate with happiness" -becomes queen She probably didn't kill the old king because he was either hard to kill or she didn't want the throne until she got banished for 20 years, and idk why she doesn't eat them herself 🤷‍♀️

[@yltraviole]

The trolls feel very much like a drug metaphor, and that's why she doesn't eat them. "Don't get high of your own supply." She knows she needs to stay sharp and angry to actually bring her plans to fruition. Because why kill the king and grab power when you're feeling good? There'd be no motivation.

[@achyka3802]

@@yltraviole substance abuse metaphors In mY kIdS CaRtoOns?!?! The drug thing went over my head because I thought they wouldn't go there but tbh what you're saying makes sense 🤔 makes the whole movie take on a darker tone now

[@Soitisisit]

See! That's a thought I had too. It's easy to kill *a child*, it's very difficult to kill an adult, well-guarded king.

[@felixhonikker4210]

Big Joel's big brain: It's obvious. It's about consumerism. Me: oh. wait. it is?

[@IIxIxIv]

The sad chef at 5:54 made me so sad. I'm sorry I didn't like your food :(

[@stephaniec6307]

The scene from They Live isn't weird at all. Frank's buddy is suddenly acting manic and flakey and iirc knows that Nada is now a fugitive accused of murder. He wasn't even comfortable giving him his paycheck. Then suddenly he's ranting about sunglasses and running towards him when Frank was trying to leave? At best Frank is hoping that ignoring his delusional friend will be enough to help Nada realize that he's acting like a madman and keep himself from getting dragged into whatever drove him to murder several people. At worst it becomes an act of spite, resisting something his weirdo friend is trying to force on him. Frank acts like a normal person would in this situation. 🤷‍♀️

[@MC-up9nx]

It's Rowdy Rowdy Piper, I mean you're not going to not have a fight scene.

[@than217]

Da Maniac: "You know, you remind me of my kids." Dennis: "Oh, you got kids, Maniac?" Da Maniac: "Nah... Not anymore."

[@amberreed5324]

An idea for why she might want the king to eat trolls so badly: He might not like the taste. And if the current king doesn't derive happiness from trolls, in front of EVERYONE, then she wouldn't have the chance to carry out her plans. It might be a fairly universal Burgens-eat-Trolls-because-they-like-it, or it could be that they grew up with it. Since humans tend to have foods that make them happy (pizza, for example), it seems strange when someone says they don't like it. They still (probably) exist, but it seems strange to us. Typically, that doesn't matter, however; The king had felt happy BEFORE eating the trolls, and Chef knows it. She saw how he looked at Bridget, which would also explain why she felt such contempt toward her (when she didn't know that she was the helper-girl). If the troll king had already felt some level of happiness, understands that the society was doing well without Trollstace (or however you spell it), and doesn't actually like the taste of trolls, he has it in his right to cancel Trollstace from thence-forth and re-banish Chef. To stop that from happening, she wants him to eat one early - to gauge his opinion, and if he doesn't like it, to steer the conversation to point to the other people who "can't" be happy without Trolls. After he eats it, either enjoying it or not, and she's able to stay the Chef, then the rest of her become-queen plan can begin. Whatever that one is.

[@Strawberry92fs]

I love Trolls so much. I also just assumed the previous King was a strong leader, unlike the new king who is literally a 20 year old child. It's very easy to manipulate your way into ruling either directly, or as a shadow ruler, with an inexperienced, inept, child ruler. Just look at history, how often groups of advisors intentionally chose heirs to the throne who couldn't effectively lead.

[@josephmatthews7698]

I like to think toy sellers told someone to write them a script to sell more toys and the writers wrote this as a small form of protest.

[@RebekahSolWest]

Bergentown? More like Byrgenwerth. “Fear the Troll blood.”

[@blarg2429]

The crossover we never knew we needed.

[@elise5457]

i find this movie really funny because there is actually a town called Bergen in Norway and it is famous for its almost constant rain.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

you sure trolled us with that thumbnail

[@LimeyLassen]

you've been trolled you've been trolled you should probably just fold when the only winning move is not to play

[@rruhland]

Her previous position as the “gatekeeper of happiness” gave her immense power. She held in her hands the key to happiness for the entire kingdom, including the king. I’d imagine her position during the Trollstice years was legitimately more powerful than the king himself. She wants that position again, and I’d guess her years in the forest had left her bitter and wanting more. With the king not having an heir, and her being the gatekeeper of the trolls, she’d be clearly able to take over Bergen town after the king is gone. Until the trollstice tradition is reinstated, she’s just a random Bergen. She needs the king to trust her and allow trollstice again, but she can also use the trolls to control the king through deprivation.

[@HadalStreetlights]

theres something primally terrifying to many people about confronting a system they believe is objective. the connection you drew to They Live is really nice. that fight scene has always stuck with me as absurd but framed the way youve spoken of it here, (i havent watched Zizek's take or i guess anybody elses really but i love that film and a lot of Carpenter's other work) i cant help but see it as kind of ominous. a frightful omen of the difficulty of convincing people to open their eyes and realize the harm they do to themselves by staying within the box so to speak. in a way, it talks about the relationship between force and logic, and the ways in which force can be exerted both within, and without, in order to avoid having to face fears that run too deep (like a deep injustice or an alien invasion)

[@jaschabull2365]

Seems to make sense to me. I've heard some people say that if they met Morpheus, they'd ask him for the blue pill, as the truth is too bleak to handle, and is a problem too great for them to solve on their own, making knowledge of the problem seem to cause more harm to them than good. Basically, it's a question of whether a crime so perfect it's virtually undetectable is worth exposing. That, and is knowledge worth obtaining if one doesn't stand to gain directly from it. I guess the fact that such sentiment is usually given in knowledge of what the truth actually was in that case (either by viewers who have seen the whole movie, or characters like Cipher, who are experiencing regret choosing the red pill instead of the blue one) is a relatively important detail, and the question of why one would resist knowledge they didn't have, or maybe didn't even know they didn't have is a curious one, though.

[@Zomboinie]

The trolls are addictive. If the king is addicted, the king is her puppet. She's a dealer. Not a user. She clearly understands joy can be felt without their consumption, she smiles like a Cheshire cat when she discovers the trolls. She doesn't eat them because she doesn't need them. She presses the king to eat them to solidify her position as his puppeteer. Once the kingdom is addicted to her product again, she simply manipulates herself onto the throne. Boom. Queen.

[@CheyenneLin]

the chef being evil is ironic bc she all she wnts to do is make people happy and become queen but at the expense of the trolls 'lives. like how people with good intentions dont matter if their impact is still bad

[@jaschabull2365]

It could probably argued that if she were genuinely altruistic, she wouldn't be plotting assassinations.

[@vizthex]

i don't know how the hell you made Trolls seem like a deep movie, but you did it.

[@mtlewis973]

would love to hear you talk about the nostalgia critic’s the wall and analyse how and why he missed the point by such a long way x

[@gangstalker5461]

I’m quite late but if you haven’t seen it already Folding Ideas made a great video about it

[@mtlewis973]

@@gangstalker5461 i have seen it! it’s almost exactly what i had in mind!

[@starwarsweexplain6380]

A fun little fact. In Norway therer is a city called Bergen. Bergen and people from Bergen are stereotyped as misreable, due to the cities bad weather.

[@dimitrishideaway]

"I meant the door was red." -William Shakespeare

[@purplekey9330]

She's a dealer, she wants to get everyone hooked, and knows not to get hooked on her own supply. When everyone else has an addiction, and you have the supplies, you have a lot of power...

[@jeffm.5199]

joel looks like a younger happier LindyBeige

[@deadinside7750]

Younger, happier, non evolutionary-psychology-incel-quackery LindyBeige

[@quantumwaffle8837]

@@deadinside7750 Yeah I like Lindy's history videos but he can be a bit nationalist and even gets pseudo-sciency when he goes outside of his comfort zone.

[@bygon432]

@@quantumwaffle8837 Haha yeah remember that time he made a whole video about climate change without ever having heard about the greenhouse effect?

[@quantumwaffle8837]

@@bygon432 ah yes, back in 2009. He still has that dumbass video up, I forgot about that one

[@e.m1108]

That's honestly a good moral to give to kids. Happiness can't be bought or consumed. Its something you have to reach deep down inside of you and release. Money, Fancy clothes, Fancy headphones and, jewelry isn't the exact key to happiness.

[@amiedesarbresninja]

The reaction of the guys's friend is the same I get when I want a non-vegan to try tofu or tempeh for the first time

[@spencerpetunia8268]

I actually had never registered that Trolls was about consumerism. Thank you for your input, Big Joel.

[@butteredtoast1250]

Sir this is a McDonald's drive through

[@blkgardner]

The Chef did in fact have a power base before she was exiled, including a "look how awesome I am" billboard. She had quite high status, being the center of attention at their most important holiday, commanding several minions, and reporting directly to the king. Her motivations are quite clear, she wants to re-establish Trollistice to regain her position of power, which it is clear that she possessed. Rather she merely wants to go back to being Keeper of the Trolls and Minster of Happiness, or if she is aiming for the crown, her basic motivations are they same. She is using her control over the supply of trolls to increase her position in Burgen society.

[@TheDreamSyndicateArts]

That "put the glasses on" fight scene is epic! It's definitely a favorite! 👓

[@Manorjames]

I believe the Chef didn't have enough power in the past because Trollstice was an established tradition, everyone was used to it. But after two decades of happyness starvation, bringing it back can make her seem pretty much like a hero. I have personal experience with that, as in my country, a very successful politician was exiled, and when he returned with promises of returning to the success of his time, he had more support than ever.

[@odedsayar4345]

in a way, the chef assumes she can achieve greater happiness from climbing up the power structures, that the power she gains by feeding trolls to others provides more happiness than eating them by herself would.

[@CPD03]

That transition got me. I forgot I clicked on a fucking Trolls video essay.

[@ditzen89]

I loved Trolls. It was on Netflix around the time my son started getting an attention span of longer than 30 seconds. We watched it everyday. The music is amazing and the story is brilliant.

[@kieranstark7213]

Is it okay to say that a lot of people overpraised it?!

[@ditzen89]

Kieran Stark I mean, it’s no Shrek. But it’s probably on the same level as Road to El Dorado.

[@NathanaelDuke]

The chef did know that happiness could come from sources other than eating trolls, because of the giddy joy she felt when she discovered and captured the trolls after 20 years of exile. She felt an extremely low low, which gave her a better appreciation for “small joys”, “the little things”...

[@NathanaelDuke]

She’s like the priest who knows it’s all bunk but gets off on the power and control. Her believing she could seize the throne via her high position in the priesthood actually makes sense if you accept the religious framing as a callback to Kings ordained by God through the Church.

[@sunneboy19]

I like how you analyze this to the point that this movie sounds big brain.

[@nirad8026]

I think she believes that if she returns them and gets everyone hooked, subsequently happy again, people will love her.

[@sint0xicateme]

B L A T B L A T B L A T You're the Q U E E N B E E"

[@Wourghk]

I'm sure the writers and directors appreciate your enthusiasm in bestowing poorly designed characters more depth than they really have.