Trope analysis: Why do we love The Mentor so much?

[@thewhiskybowman]

I'd say they are possibly liked more because they are not the main character, they have less page time in which to do stupid things that start to annoy you. Making silly choices usually falls to the mentored, often with less than healthy results for the mentor, so the negative connotations are with the other trope type characters rather than the mentor themselves. If that makes sense.

[@Johanna_reads]

There are probably many reasons why we love the mentor trope so much. The mentor takes a parental role without being a true parent, which is part of the found family trope. Fantasy is very aspirational in general, and the mentor may also symbolize learning, potential for growth, magic, and many exciting unknowns in the world. The human quality to a mentor grounds all that magic and mystery. The quirks add an endearing quality to the inspiration they provide. Gandalf is my favorite. 🧙🏻‍♂

[@Bookborn]

Very true! I didn’t even think of the aspirational aspect

[@JoelAdamson]

Moiraine was such a cool twist on the mentor archetype. Yet another reason I fell in love with Wheel of Time.

[@Bookborn]

She's amazing from page 1!

[@uptown3636]

My favorite non-traditional mentor relationship in fiction is Edgar's relationship with Wireman in Duma Key by Stephen King. It's unusual because both men are in their later years. This mentor-friendship between older people reminds me of the sponsor-sponsee relationship in 12-step recovery programs. My first sponsor became a father figure, a mentor, and eventually a peer, and I expect King drew on his own experiences in recovery when he wrote that book.

[@Bookborn]

Oh I love that. In general, especially as a mentee, older characters get ignored so much. As if once you arent a teen/early twenties you don't need mentors anymore 😅

[@Florfilm]

I need to read that book. I had it on my TBR for the longest time.

[@nathancooper22]

The faithful and fallen series by John Gwynne has many mentor characters and most are pretty awesome but one in particular has an unusual twist where the mentor loses the person they were watching over instead of the mentor dying and it’s amazing to see how they handle that. Won’t say who for spoiler reasons

[@Bookborn]

Ohhh I really like that twist. I need to get to John Gwynne finally

[@MetalGildarts]

Ahhhh I know who you’re talking about…yeah to say they through stuff is an understatement.

[@chrisconnors7418]

Allanon in the original Shannara trilogy (Sword, Elfstones, Wishsong) was one of the first and therefore my favourite mentor character I came across (not counting Marty the spaceman in the kids’ books by Slobodkin). :) I think the Thomas Covenant (Donaldson) fantasy series managed to avoid the mentor trope, but it’s been a long time since I read them.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

I dig Allanon as a mentor! He's not so much the wizardry advisor as he is the grizzled veteran type! Like Lan somewhat!

[@anthempt3edits]

My favorite mentor character has got to be Kanan Jarrus from Star Wars Rebels. Having a mentor not ready for the role and watching him grow alongside the main characters was done _so_ well. It helped make for an extremely satisfying finale for all characters.

[@saraeissa4954]

Yeah you say that with Hamish in the Hunger Games as well he’s just a drunk that’s given the mentor role because there’s no else to do it but then he gives katniss and peeta advice individually that caters to their personality and then when he’s fully fledged into his mentor role he teaches them to work together

[@msthornback7935]

The mentors in Tamora Pierce's quartets buck the static nature. They grow and are affected by their mentees as well.

[@andrewadams8601]

I agree that the Kelsier/Vin relationship was really interesting, especially because they were both so flawed in different ways. Seeing Vin come to grips with the humanity of Kelsier was really interesting. I also really the mentors in WoT. Moraine was so good and seeing how her mentorship changed as the story progresses and Rand begins to embody the Dragon Reborn was very interesting to me. Additionally, the Lan/Rand mentorship was one of my favorites. Lan doesn't really take center stage, but you really get a feeling for how much he cares when is there to build Rand up as a man in ways that go unnoticed by the other people around him. His time teaching Rand about swordsmanship, the flame and the void, and how "death is lighter than a feather, but duty is heavier than a mountain" are key elements of Rand's identity throughout the series. And then there's Cadsuane and the Wise Women and Verrin and Elyas and....well just a lot of really great mentors. The Lan/Rand relationship is one of the biggest omissions for me in the TV series. I can't think of any really unusual ones except maybe Hopper the wolf from WoT :D

[@onfaerystories]

I love that topic! I think we tend to value tropes that satisfy in a way our own longings and desires (for me it has always been found family because that's what I deeply needed). If you want to feel you have a clear purpose in this life, the chosen one trope might speak to you, and I feel it does for many young readers but then they grow up and realize that what makes life even more unique and purposeful is the free-will we have to make meaningful choices and grow along the way. Obviously, if you're born with some responsibilities on your shoulders (let's say you're royalty or come from a very influential family), you may be called to it in a special way, but it's still always a choice you have to make for yourself and evaluate if the sacrifices you'll have to make are worth it, but so few people get to actually experience that (or they do but in other areas of their lives, and it mainly affects the ones closest to them: marriage, parenthood, etc.) I personally love mentor figures (though I've not read many for now that I've connected to on a deeper level, maybe because, like you said, they usually don't grow themselves or we know very little about their past or their inner thoughts & struggles, and in that way they're mostly archetypes instead of fleshed out characters), I guess I love the idea of it because, in my case, I didn't find that in my own family, but through my husband's family (and in many ways my husband has fulfilled that role). I remember one of my philosophy teachers in college told us that what's missing nowadays in young people's life are higher ideals. He said these ideals are usually inspired by people who practice them, who are examples for the people around them. What he was truly saying is that parents don't always fulfill that role for their children as there are so many more broken families than we imagine, and so these young people feel lost and forsaken, and they do need direction. Teachers can inspire that in them, but also many other types of relationships where one can share his or her wisdom to someone who would need it (and that's why there's usually an age-gap, because we need to value more those life experiences that will help change our perspective and become not only more mature but hopefully more sensible and empathetic). Wow, I wrote an essay, so I'll stop here. 😅 But that was again a very interesting video discussion, especially as I've been thinking a lot these past two years about why we - I - love Fantasy so much.

[@Cappy-Bara]

I love the babysitter trope, which is adjacent to the Mentor trope, with a slightly different relationship. Like for WoT, Thom and Nynaeve vs Moraine, or Hagrid vs Dumnledore. They are looked up too, but can't really be trusted with as much responsibility.

[@bradfordwilson4742]

The best mentor and mentee IMO is Merlin and Arthur. After teaching him as a kid and after he pulls the sword from the stone, he jumps in and out of the story only when Arthur really needs him. This is strongly shown in Harry Potter between Harry and Dumbledore. It's a traditional way of fantasy storytelling which has been around for a very long time and I love it!

[@nobodybutzach]

I have found many of my favorite characters in stories often are the mentor. It's funny you say that you don't see it coming when they die....I usually think to myself, "better enjoy him/her now because death is near."

[@Bookborn]

I mean that's what I SHOULD be thinking but somehow I'm always *surprised pikachu* whenever it happens

[@greggtierney8418]

I did love Wheel of Time flipping the old grey mentor, into Moraine, I think every book I read before that, the mentor was always an old grey haired wizard. I'm actually having a lot of fun flipping the trope in my writing at the moment (if i ever finish) Its one trope that I've not seen given a fresh lick of paint and i'd like to see more variety

[@thegreenxeno9430]

If refering to the books, the name is Moiraine. Only Moraine in the show. Pronounced different too.

[@phen0menos]

I absolutely adore Ogion from the Earthsea series, though he definitely falls into the "wizened old guy" category

[@Bookborn]

Oh I can't believe I didn't include Ogion in here! There are so many good old wise guy ones.

[@leonember9234]

Earthsea needs more attention from fantasy discussions. It is beautifully written and profound. I read it long ago and LeGuin's vision had a major effect on my personal world view, especially nature and the patterns of life.

[@LXReads]

I do think there's a difference between a mentor, and a representative of the Mentor trope. The former is more like what we see in our own lives, whereas there's a certain... emotional distance to the latter. Like for examples in Stormlight, I think of Teft as a small-m mentor to Kaladin. He offers advice and helps him through the depression, but he's also a friend. And I think in some ways Kaladin is also a mentor to the members of Bridge 4. Contrast that with Wit/Hoid: he gives advice to a number of people, but he never really gets too close to them, at least not enough to see his vulnerabilities, which feels more like The Mentor (to me). Jasnah is interesting because I do feel like she's more of the latter, but as readers, we've seen a bit more of her vulnerability and growth than the other characters do. Anyway, great video like always!

[@Bookborn]

That’s such an interesting take! I would def include Kaladin and Teft as mentors, but because it’s not their primary role in the story, I don’t necessarily feel like they fall into the trope, which is the distinction for me. I didn’t necessarily feel like Gandalf was emotionally distant, for example n

[@pjalexander_author]

great video! An interesting thing about the SW prequels is Anakin losing his mentor according to trope, except that he loses his mentor earlier than he can cope with. Then his new mentor is inadequate (debatable) prompting Anakin to seek a new mentor, which is what sparks all the drama. I don't have a point here lol, just that it's an interesting twist on the mentor trope. Also your thumbnail 😅 I can't say I ever wondered what you would look like in a mustache and beard, but it turns out you look pretty good! 🙃

[@spinningclio]

Anakin Skywalker - many mentors have he did. Managed to have outcast who died, unprepared big brother and evil emperor. No wonder the kid was confused.

[@Florfilm]

For the best mentor characters, are the ones that aren’t just mentors. Mentor is a function that a character performes in relation to another character. But the mentor can be more things. One of my favorite mentors is Sazed. He is a mentor to Vin but he does many other things in the books. If a mentor is exclusively a mentor he needs to die if he fulfilled that role. But if he has another purpose in the story he can just go away and do that instead. Even Gandalf who is the classic mentor does other things late in the books which makes him more nuanced. Also a character can. Have different mentors in a book which before and after play other roles. I think that flexibility is one reason mentors are so beloved.

[@dinocollins720]

Another fantastic video! Thank you!

[@nenerson1195]

Something I'd love to see more of is the evil mentor, and if anyone has any recs I'll eat it up. I already read of all of Joe Abercrombie lol. I think even though mentors are static we love to see their history. It's just so much potential for who the main characters could be.

[@Bookborn]

Lol first thing I was gonna recommend was Abercrombie. Bayaz is THE BEST.

[@lucasreid4443]

Eithan in the Cradle series is an excellent but highly unusual mentor. He is highly ambitious (not static) and his personality outshines a cast of strong personalities. The POV chapter where he is introduced is one of the most fun character introductions I have ever experienced.

[@Bookborn]

Man I really need to finally read Cradle

[@lucasreid4443]

@@Bookborn You do!!! A delightful mix of fulfilling and upending tropes.

[@MetalGildarts]

@@lucasreid4443 I just read Soulsmith recently.

[@amberlee6878]

Just found your channel and now I’m binge watching all your vids!

[@Bookborn]

Yay ☺️

[@derrisreaditbefore]

I do enjoy your videos Hilary, they always make me think about specific elements I don't usually spend time being deliberately aware of. For me, the mentor represents someone who is reliable, trustworthy, predictable - and coming from an upbringing almost devoid of those things - the mentor is always someone I enjoy reading about. A few older series, with mentors *outside* the usual 'old wise man' trope, include: - David Eddings' Belgariad, where alongside the traditional mentor, we also have an ageless sorceress, Polgara (there's a companion novel entirely from her pov, which is great). - Raymond E. Feist & Janny Wurts' Empire trilogy, where elderly-nurse promoted to First-Advisor, Nacoya, again brings us an older wise woman. - Terry Pratchett's Discworld, specifically the Tiffany Aching stories (beginning with The Wee Free Men), where the older witches from earlier in the series, mentor the young witch through her training. Nanny Ogg shines in this role, because, while she's definitely an old wise woman, she pushes against the stereotype, by being utterly outrageous. She smokes, drinks, tells dirty jokes, and is one of the most insightful and helpful people in Tiffany's journey. Cheers! 📚

[@aliciasorenson3807]

I definitely love the mentor trope. A couple others I can think of that are entertaining and unique are in Legends of the First Empire (prequel to Ryiria Revelations) and in the Nevermoor series by Jessica Townsend(fantastic highly recommend middle grade). But the mentor that sticks out to me as being the most unique and entertaining is in All Creatures Great and Small. If you have not read this wonderful and hilarious memoir written by an animal vet in the 1930's Yorkshire Dales YOU. MUST. READ. IT. You will absolutely love it.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

I wanna single out Lan as not exactly the wise old mentor but as the grizzled veteran/drill sergeant/coach type, which is awesome! And yes, being shocked or surprised as an audience and readership when a mentor dies or is killed, instead of seeing it coming and going "of course", I think is a testament to the story writer's ability to make the mentor humanly essential and their loss an actual impactful devastating loss and Merlin is earliest source template I think for western fantasy although he doesn't die like that... (side eye) I'll always go for the wizardly mentor! And I actually prefer "apprentice/student/junior" to "mentee" which always makes me think of sea-cow Manatees!

[@reydarouaghi6288]

I think we can all agree that the best mentor in fantast is obviously Bayaz first of the magi his relationships with and the way he treats his mentees you just have to love the guy .

[@Bookborn]

I mean he’s absolutely one of my favorites but hard to talk about him for obvious reasons 😂😂

[@dinocollins720]

It hurts me every single time a mentor dies haha

[@Bookborn]

Right. Doesn't matter that I should know it's coming it still hurts

[@dinocollins720]

@@Bookborn yeah even rewatching or rereading haha😂

[@Loxago]

Interesting discussion mate!

[@krisztiankovacs2103]

My favorite mentor characters are Chade Fallstar from Robin Hobb's Assassin's Apprantice, and of course Master Elodin and Master Kilvin from the Kingkiller Chronicles :)

[@DeclanOReilly]

Shout out to Mr Miagyi

[@readbykyle3082]

Great video - this is one I absolutely love. Most of my favorite characters are mentors but perhaps I just like characters who already know what they're doing 🤣 I do wish less of them died, though. I get your point about the MC needing to grow without them, but its lazy when death is the only way around this. Actually, DRESDEN FILES DOES THIS WELL (look, I've been converted, you are just going to have to suffer through this) where the mentor character is still around and occasionally interacts with or helps Dresden but is no longer intimately involved in his training/life. But also...I'm a sucker for a noble death, too, so damned either way.

[@Bookborn]

I can't believe you're going to make me read Dresden. Because that's what's happening. Why did you have to share this journey with me. Yeah it's pretty hard to think of mentors that don't die. (And I don't count the dying and then coming back which happens in like 50% of these lol). Bayaz doesn't but tbh Bayaz doesn't count here. Obi Wan sort of counts with Anakin - he didn't die, Anakin just turned against him. Kenobi only died for Luke. As I'm typing that I realize he was a double-mentor which is probably why I like him so much haha

[@Bookborn]

Ok wait I just thought of a new one that someone mentioned that I can't believe I didn't mention: Uncle Iroh from Avatar! He doesn't die. ALthough his mentee also turns against him for a bit lol

[@jakebishop7822]

Damm, you commented all my non standard mentors. I guess arguably Allesan and Devin in Tigana? I think that one feels different is that while Allesan's focus is still his story, and he is more important to the main plot. But also Devin is still the protagonist.

[@Bookborn]

I haven't read Tigana yettttttt (I know I should)

[@alynam82]

I love a good mentor trope, and I didn't even realize it until you brought it up. Yes, I enjoy it in fantasy, but I come across it in other genres too, and it always grabs my attention and captures my interest. Like Stephen King uses mentors, such as Jud in Pet Semetary 🙀

[@Flammewar]

I agree with you that they work so well because we all had mentors in our life or at least wish to have someone like that. This is probably also the reason why they die so often. Most of us also reach a point in our life where we emancipate us from them and the death of the mentor is probably the literary equivalent to that. I‘m struggling right now to find an unusual mentor but I only know old, wise guys. But I guess this will change in the future. :D

[@Bookborn]

Yeah they sort of almost have to die for the character to move on narratively. Thankfully that isn’t the case in our real lives 😂

[@tw7998]

Ha, i was talking to a friend who also likes fantasy a few days ago about how fantasy series often follow a set formula and even mentioned the mentor!- but how we still enjoy the series. Anyway for a fave mentor i am going to pick a less popular one... Durzo Blint from the night angel trilogy. He is not clean cut like many mentors (he has commited murder many times and even considers killing his protege) and he does develop.

[@safinan8008]

You always have unique videos which i like a lot! Happy reading to you!! 😊

[@PaintedThumbVids]

My favorite mentor is Mr. Miyagi from the OG Karate Kid. Strong, honorable, but with a comedic twist and a little bit tragic.

[@vivamortua]

Uncle Iroh from Avatar the Last Airbender and Auron from Final Fantasy X stand out to me as great mentor figures not already mentioned. The Flash TV show has many great mentor-mentee relationships, with multiple characters (Joe West,Harrison Wells, Jay Garrick, etc.) Acting as mentors to Barry Allen and Barry going on to mentor other superheroes in turn. Then there are more villainous mentors like Pai Mei from Kill Bill and Andross Guile and Murder Sharp from the Lightbringer series. Also what about stories where a character is their own mentor due to amnesia, time travel or parallel universes, like Total Recall, The Time Traveler's Wife or The Man Who Folded Himself?

[@danhaycraft9321]

One month late, but Asmodeon.

[@carbonc6065]

Thanks for this video!😀😀😀😀😀😀

[@jaredscottabramson7463]

Best non-typical mentor is Denth from Warbreaker.

[@jimave]

Darth Sidious was a mentor to Darth Maul and Darth Vader. 😮

[@Bookborn]

So true he’s the true mentor

[@vaughnroycroft999]

How about this for a potentially controversial take? In a lot of ways, Ayt Mada performs a mentor role to Shae. So, uber-villain as mentor. What do you think?

[@Bookborn]

I mean I absolutely love their relationship but idk if I saw it as mentor? I saw it more as equals for whatever reason. But now that you mention it, their age and experience difference could def be seen as that role. I love it.

[@vaughnroycroft999]

@@Bookborn SPOILER ALERT FOR THE GREEN BONE SAGA: I loved at the end, when Ayt takes credit for... everything. Sort of like, "None of it could've happened without me.'' (paraphrasing) But it got me thinking. Shae wouldn't have sought overseas markets if it hadn't been for Ayt, for one thing. But Ayt's seeming ability to stay one step ahead of No Peak kept Shae striving and trying to think ahead and outside the box. I sort of like the idea of learning from our adversaries, too. Anyway, another thought-provoking video. Cheers!

[@d.edwardmeade3683]

Gandalf is an interesting mentor. We lose him and then get him back 😆... maybe because he was too cool to let go. Similar to Merlin in the movie Excalibur. Okay, now as I move along I think of Obi-Wan. Hmmmm... now I have to think about how many mentors die and then come back 🤣🤣🤣

[@Bookborn]

Obi wan doesn’t come back in quite the same way - he can’t physically offer help! But yes I think Gandalf is the perfect example because he leaves during the hard parts so our characters have to survive and grow without him 😂

[@d.edwardmeade3683]

@@Bookborn Oh good point, as he was a Force ghost. Yes I agree. 👍

[@sodreigor]

I like mentors because when they are POV/focus they usually are waaaaayy less naive. Honestly I'm a bit tired of seeing the young people making young peoples mistakes in the books hahahahaha. I've already made all of those and need no reminder of myself being dumb hehe.

[@swarnalipaul1998]

Gojo Satoru from Jujutsu Kaisen

[@MetalGildarts]

Yeeeeess

[@AnEruditeAdventure]

Nope, I agree. Mentors are the best obviously Gandalf is a favorite, but there’s so many other great ones out there. -T

[@Antonio-oc8ub]

I LOVE THIS TROPE!!! Unlike the chosen one (which is pretty hit or miss for me) this trope I feel is often executed really well and that the emotional points that usually come with the story of the mentor are mostly well done. My favorite most typical mentors are: -Obi Wan Kenobi (of the ones you listed probably my favorite, though that’s mainly because of the prequels). I don’t know if Anakin would also fall into this category in The Clone Wars. I lean towards no, but in the strict sense of the word he is a mentor and his relationship with Ashoka may be one of the best in Star wars (hell maybe even the best) so he is worth mentioning (as well as Qui gonn Jin for being a cool dude) -Silvers Rayleigh from One Piece (it’s very very standard but has enough emotional moments to fulfill his role in the story) And the one I consider to be the best fiction mentor ever created: -Uncle Iroh from Avatar: the last Airbender. From outside he seems very standard but the amount of depth and emotion that this man brings to the table is outstanding. Demonstrates what a kind man can really do. Some series I like with mentors that are slightly/very different to the norm. -Kung Fu panda. Ok this seems like a weird choice but Shifu is amazing. His relationship with Tai Lung in the first movie is full of emotion and it’s very well written and I love how that influences his duty of teaching Po. Shifu is a character with a complete arc that also falls into the mentor trope, one of the best executions of said trope. -I didn’t finish the series but Jujutsu Kaisen has a very interesting mentor figure and I know that (after season 1) the story goes in depth about who he is so I have to mention it I don’t remember the ones I like the most at the moment but if I remember I will edit the comment and put the. Such a versatile trope that I like. Should read Wheel of time to get to know these other mentors huh.

[@krle24]

because we all have daddy issues, obv

[@leehunts4327]

How dare you not include Bayaz in the thumbnail and examples.

[@Bookborn]

It’s too much of a spoiler. I already mentioned him as my favorite villain, but saying he’s an uncommon mentor and why is just too spoilery!

[@leehunts4327]

@@Bookborn Oh, I was just making a joke. I wouldn't even consider him a mentor at all. My thinking is that the twist is that he's not actually a mentor.