Trope Talk: Betrayal

[@TheKoalaTTV]

Curse this sudden but inevitable trope talk!

[@sampew1605]

Ha ha ha! Mine is an evil laugh!

[@Silverwing2112]

Gor'ram it, beat me to it...

[@jakebrooks7481]

Yeah what fox did to firefly was a shame

[@jakebrooks7481]

Yeah what fox did to firefly was a shame

[@jakebrooks7481]

Yeah what fox did to firefly was a shame

[@zenebean]

I love betrayals that are "that person was my best friend, but I was not theirs." Realizing you aren't a priority the same way the other person is to you hurts like hell

[@animeotaku307]

Wish Red had mentioned the mistreatment-induced betrayals, since that would count.

[@soulstealer5625]

Scorpia "You're a bad friend"

[@zenebean]

@@soulstealer5625 oof Catra taking her for granted always hurt, this was one of those cathartic betrayals. Villains turn it into a source of resentment, good people realize they deserve better

[@Krahazik]

@@zenebean Waited for so long for Catra to finally figure things out about herself and eventually turn to the good guy side and discover that friendships are what she has been missing all along. That show had so many dynamics of character and development between not only the main chars but the side chars as well.

[@Kris-wo4pj]

@@zenebean my issue is that Scorpia wasnt that good of a friend either. she was a boundary pusher to the extreme. but Catra was just a toxic user with her and Entrapa so it makes sense why people dont call out Scorpia since theres bigger issues there.

[@anyanP]

I think my favorite sub-trop of this is “a person who pretended to be on heroes’ side planned to betray them all along, but start caring for real”

[@ParasaurolophusZ]

The original Thunderbolts comic was like that, with the team plotting to betray the world by pretending to be heroes, then deciding that they liked being heroes way better than villains.

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

Turns out getting happy vibes is a wonderful way to change one's mind lol.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Oh, that one is sooo good, one of my favorit characters ever was such a case. She was one of many brother of the crown princess and used as a decoy for her protection. She survived and showed up later claiming to be the cousin that died protecting her and claiming to be trans so it would be harder to tell she was not actually the cousin. When she was introduced she was the closest confidant of the Princess her emotional support when their where in a foreign world, her parental figure..... She was so cool, often the voice of reason helping people with tough realisations while not quite taking her own advice.... Figuring out she was a traitor was heartbreaking for she was so conflicted. She had wanted revange and sold her soul for it and even if she switched sides, she had no power to protect her now so dearly beloved little sibling/niece. Someone else switches sides and steps in saving the princess for a short time as she was ment to be sacrificed, but they can not take her place as the sacrifice..... So my favorit does it, telling the weeping prince's how much she grew to love her and how her dressing as a woman started as a ruse but became her reality, who she was and that she might not fit the idea of the sacrifice but she does fullfill the criteria.... Such a great character

[@kevinr.9733]

Even better is when the person is working (initially) for some other faction and said faction reveals the "traitor" to the heroes. So much potential for drama.

[@rawcookiedough7518]

Spoilers for MHA manga Flashback to the Aoyama reveal. It just hurt seeing him obviously hating what he has to do to the people he now considers his friends but not being able to do anything about it without putting himself in serious danger

[@uaeoaeoeoi]

My favorite betrayal is the ones where it basically boils down to "I have been entirely straightforward and honest with you about my goals the entire time, I am frankly confused as to what else you could have possibly expected to happen here" especially when such a statement is made by the betrayer when called out on the betrayal.

[@archivist_13]

God I love those ones too, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head but it's always so funny in a way

[@maxentirunos]

@@archivist_13 If anybody have example or a trope name for that, please respond because I want to try doing that in my next fiction.

[@cardboardcrafter2482]

Any examples?

[@diocletian9214]

Little Finger betraying Ned Stark is the example that comes to mind

[@MichealFelk]

@@cardboardcrafter2482Revolver Ocelot kind of counts

[@Pablo360able]

“You can’t mourn the loss of something that never existed.” X to doubt. It usually isn’t played that way, but think about how *devastating* it would be to find out that, essentially, one of your closest friends never existed at all.

[@MrDragon7742]

Exactly! And this sort of thing is really common in abusive relationships. The abuser comes in acting like the perfect romantic partner, and then slowly reveals their true selves once the other person is hooked. Admitting that the person you fell in love with never existed is the incredibly difficult first step to getting out of there.

[@hirocheeto7795]

Pretty sure she said that in terms of audience perspective. If the audience isn't invested in the dynamic between two characters, then they won't care all that much when one betrays another. There's nothing to mourn, because you never cared at all.

[@Pablo360able]

@@hirocheeto7795 That’s not what I’m talking about. This is in response to the part where she talks about betrayals that reveal that a character isn’t really who they said they were, thus meaning the relationships up until then were fake. That does *not* mean that the audience wasn’t invested in the relationship up to that point.

[@hirocheeto7795]

​@@Pablo360able Got a timestamp? Either we're talking about two different parts, or one of us is just misunderstanding what she said.

[@Pablo360able]

@@hirocheeto7795 I left this comment yesterday, I don’t have a timestamp

[@javonyounger5107]

A big problem with Disney twist villains is that they basically switch an established character out for a new one in the thrid act. Atlantis actually does this well because the villain keeps his personality and shows the more sinister facets of his character.

[@snelldor1474]

Probably another favourite of mine is Charles Muntz from Up. Where he started acting like a nice guy, because he saw welcoming company after many decades of isolation. It’s only when Kevin is brought up is when he switched to how crazy and insane he has gotten.

[@Nimelennar]

Disney does betrayal both really well, and really poorly, in Tangled: the Series. Spoilers ahead. The first big betrayal is Varian. And, honestly, he has a good argument that he was the one who was betrayed. The heroes had promised him help, but they were in the middle of a crisis when he came to cash that in, and thus couldn't help him before it was too late. He had a legitimate grudge, that he carried way too far. And when he realized he'd gone too far, he tried to make amends for it. On the other hand, we have Cassandra, who is in the "switched out for a new character in the third act" category. When you remove all of her grievances that are consequences of her own decisions, or were completely out of the control of the people she's blaming for them (e.g. Rapunzel getting kidnapped as a baby), her decision to go full bad guy boils down to... not feeling like she gets enough respect. Like, the whole storyline that leads up to her betrayal starts off with her singing a big number about how she'll never get the glory she deserves, because Rapunzel took someone else's advice instead of hers, this one time. It just falls flat.

[@helendocherty6324]

Honestly Rourke is one of my favorite villains because of that. Heck, even during the final fight, he still continues to compliment the main character on inconveniencing him, even while beating him up with a smile on his face. There's something so unsettling about how he STILL has that air of friendliness even while actively trying to kill someone.

[@DLxxx]

​@@Nimelennar **More TTS spoilers* Cassandra is my favorite character, and I was LIVID by what they did to her in Season 3. If they'd just made her more of anti-villain/anti-hero for a while, that would've made more sense. Instead, she's swapped out for a different character completely in order to justify her "villain" arc, and it isn't until she turned on Zhan Tiri that everyone in the fan base cheered because "Yes! She FINNALLY got her intelligence and common sense back!" If you're getting responses like _this,_ that's how you know someone is being written out-of-character, lol. I still love Cass, and take a lot of creative inspiration from her character (the moment she and Rapunzel first became friends is masterful writing), but the writers should've handled her arc with more care. 😔

[@aarondevaldez9134]

​@@helendocherty6324 A character from a similar vein is Pavel Morozov from Metro: Last Light. Even after he's turned Artyom over to his superiors at The Red Line, and towards the story's denouement, he still keeps his affable personality. Moreover he's riven with internal conflict as he's trying to kill Artyom, even though he still considers him a friend.

[@johnniefinney3266]

The best part of betrayal is that it never comes from an enemy

[@ArakDBlade]

I dunno. Your enemy giving up the fight or making amends can feel like a betrayal if you enjoyed the fighting. 😅

[@KingsBard]

@@ArakDBlade okay Megamind

[@johnniefinney3266]

This got way too many likes way too fast. I was making a joke comment

[@Zuginator]

The real enemy is the friends you made along the way!

[@Gidonamor]

Hello Morgana from League of Legends!

[@BioshadowX]

Zuko has several great betrayals but nothing will ever go harder than "You miscalculated. I love Zuko more than I fear you." Also shout out to His Dark Materials and one of the most heartbreaking betrayals

[@thegreendragoninn8730]

"No, YOU miscalculated! You should have feared me MORE!"

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

Idk, when he finally stands up to his father is probably the best scene in the show

[@Matheus-ql7mn]

MAYBE SPOILERS That line is one of the great lines not just in Avatar, but in general. In itself it's already great, a banger, but it's even harder when you think Mei is saying that for Azula, who's most proud of being a cold blood strategist. Saying she miscalculated is just ending her whole career (kinda literally lol)

[@Pyre]

His Dark Materials....which *one* ? Presumably the end of the Golden Compass, where it turns out that every adult who wasn't a witch or a sky sailor was exactly as cold and monstrous as they'd been implied to be all along? I'm a bit bitter: between the way the series tumbled clumsily along after it and how That act just felt like it was thrown on for horror's sake at the end, I never did like it much. Though as far as one of those "What's the worst possible thing that can happen in this moment?" twists, yeeeah it made for a *hell* of a knife to the gut. Or electrical device to the torso, as it were.

[@BioshadowX]

@@Pyre the prophesied one. Both of them have the best of intentions but it's a choice that someone is going to lose either way.

[@GamermanZendrelax]

An interesting thing about Adora turning away from the Horde is the subtext behind why Catra takes things so personally. When Adora sees Horde forces destroying that town, it breaks through years of indoctrination and gaslighting to make her realize they are, in fact, the baddies, which helps her to recontextualize the horrible things she saw while a member of the Horde. But Catra's always known the Horde were evil, because the abuse she'd been subjected to was much more overt and violent. All she can see is Adora turning on the Horde for this random town, but never doing so for Catra, which carries the implication that the abuse she'd received was in some way justified, or even good. Small wonder she rejected any offers to leave the Horde for so long.

[@olotocolo]

That... sounds really well-written

[@sasha8345]

u know what this is the comment that made me understand catra because for like 5 seasons i hated her

[@Telawin]

this is probably the best explanation I've ever heard for why Catra stayed behind

[@Vinemaple]

WOW. I don't think that was in the detail diatribe, that's powerful.

[@smugsneasel]

That use of the clip of the Flash in Luthor's body not washing his hands to seem evil while you talk about "all kinds of horrible things that character do to maintain cover" was amazing.

[@aurifulgore]

"Cuz I'm EVIL" 😈

[@archivist_13]

Truly the worst crime one can commit ever

[@Door227]

Now I’m not one for killing villains… BUT-

[@coolgreenbug7551]

@@archivist_13almost as evil as stealing 40 cakes. That’s as many as four tens and that’s awful

[@archivist_13]

@@coolgreenbug7551 the HUMANITY

[@stevehagen9804]

The real betrayal was from the friends we thought we made along the way

[@archivist_13]

Can't argue with that

[@CMelon-xe1qc]

Ouch

[@nKosmos747]

Surprisingly the saddest version of this comment I have encountered thus far. 😢

[@abloodcorpse3318]

Honestly, the Doc Ock betrayal is written so good, cause Doc Ock calls out Peter by name, and makes it clear he knew it was Peter all along, meaning that even though he knew it was Peter, he still did all of this to him without a second thought, proving to Peter that the Otto he thought he knew is truly gone.

[@JoeMH1995]

Paragon-Traitor is usually an interesting and painful mix. On the one hand, Spider-Man has caught most dangerous villain in New York that week. On the other hand, Peter Parker has just put his disabled mentor in prison.

[@pn2294]

More like he never existed to begin with.

[@marctaco2624]

He confronts us at the start of the game that we make Spider-Man’s tech (though I don’t think he knew Peter was Spider-Man himself) and even approves enough to personally upgrade our armor and lets us use his lab for new gadgets, which just showed how much faith he had in Peter that he would eventually agree with his plans. The dialogue and acting really sells that he genuinely thought we had betrayed him.

[@lckaboom6810]

PS4 game Doc Ock is easily my favorite interpretation of the character

[@pn2294]

@@lckaboom6810 Honestly I find him massively overrated

[@enlongjones2394]

14:45 “You’re the face I saw when murder entered my heart” is one hell of a line.

[@footlong7980]

What show/movie is that?

[@orsolyafekete7485]

With the sheer quantity of attempted epic one-liners that Taliesin as Percy delivered during the campaign, some of them was bound to be awesome. :P But then we also have gems like "Life needs things to live." (OMG I want them so much to put that into the show somehow)

[@CrownofMischief]

​@Orsolya Fekete "Your secret is safe with my indifference."

[@benparrish672]

​@@footlong7980 Animal House

[@SirsasthNigam.]

this foreshadows Percy's Psychotic trauma and deal with Orvax

[@thebooknerd5223]

I still can’t believe Yzma didn’t like Kronk’s spinach puffs. It broke my heart to see him hurt like that 😔

[@hellocentral5551]

Wait, how did Kronk even get spinach, a plant originally from South-East Asia?

[@unfabgirl]

It was truly one of the greatest betrayals of all time!

[@Nameless-ln5mr]

That’s it. She’s going down!

[@cyndiread1207]

​@hellocentral5551 Well, you got me. *pulls down trade route map* By all accounts, it doesn't make sense

[@OreoRanger2210]

In my drama class, two of my classmates performed "Love is an open door" but added multiple lines for Hans when Anna is leading. A personal favorite was: "You are so easy to manipulate."

[@mrgreenskypiano]

Now I want a full transcript

[@itspienoon7883]

That line of foreshadowing sounds alot better written than Hans' actual betrayal in the movie

[@xolotltolox7626]

Shouldn't it be more subtle like "lead along" or "you follow so well"? This feels kinda blunt force trauma

[@OreoRanger2210]

@@xolotltolox7626 There were other lines, I just can't remember. Plus, I think the blunt force trauma was the point and was in fact, the joke. Anna might have even have said "What did you say?" at one point. It was funny as hell.

[@mrgreenskypiano]

@@xolotltolox7626 that's the funny part

[@impulse4501]

11:34 who else's favorite example of the bad guys always being a step ahead even when it makes no sense is: "Impossible! How did you get here before us?!" "You're right. By all accounts, it doesn't make sense."

[@nathanjereb9944]

"Impossible! how did you get here before us?" "Uhh... how did we kronk?" "You got me..." *pulls down map* "By all standards, it doesn't make sense"

[@BrunoMaricFromZagreb]

It is HIGHLY contextual & prone to failures,but I do love it when authors just shamelessly abuse Warner Bros physics in their work.The Monkey Island franchise being a good example & One piece being a bad one of the trope.

[@ashurean]

"How did we Kronk?" "Well you got me, by all accounts it doesn't make sense."

[@janus2773]

@@BrunoMaricFromZagreb wanna give any specific example for one piece here?

[@alucard347]

@@BrunoMaricFromZagreb what happened with one piece?

[@schwarzerritter5724]

I love that you used Yzma saying she does not liking Kronk's cooking as one of the clips.

[@coracorvus]

"Do you want to know something else? I never liked your spinach puffs! Never!"

[@newsystembad]

My favorite was her illustration of a good guy having to do something utterly evil to prove they're not double-agent-ing...by showing Flash-as-Lex-Luthor saying he didn't wash his hands "cause I'm EVIL".

[@jameshart2622]

There are some lines that just should never be crossed.

[@SheepUndefined]

To be fair, that was a pretty extreme betrayal!

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@newsystembad Fortunately for Flash, Lex was so crazy at this point that nobody questioned it.

[@TetsuShima]

“The saddest thing about betrayal is that it never comes from your enemies, it comes from those you trust the most.”

[@HenshinFanatic]

That's why you don't trust anyone.

[@candidcadaver]

gotta say, this is made funnier by your username

[@thomasallen9974]

Unless its Starscream. Then you are counting how long til he tries backstabbing you

[@jondoe7036]

Tell that to Revolver Ocelot and someone already mentioned Starscream...

[@TheViewer_]

4:41 The fact that the background shows Flash as Lex saying he's not going to wash his hands because he's evil is truly one of the most evil things you could do to not blow your cover

[@Dr.Starbound]

He didn't even have to! The magnet guy just gave the "Hey, wash your hands man that's gross" and Flash decided that either "He's probably testing me" or "Nah, Lex is an asshole, no way he'd wash his hands"

[@StonetheDestroyer42]

I loved that editing choice. And that scene. 😂

[@seasnaill2589]

@@Dr.Starbound I figured he was just messing around, wanted to spread the rumor amongst Lex's peers that the guy doesn't wash his hands.

[@StealthMarmot_]

In fairness it was in character because Lex doesn't like being told what to do, and is not above being a petty snarky dick.

[@coolgreenbug7551]

Almost as evil as stealing 40 cakes

[@danielhale1]

"What happens when you break their trust?" "Please don't" That image is hilarious to me. Red, I love your presentation style! Thank you for excellent trope talks!

[@reapeashooter2]

No worries. Brutus is my friend! He'd never do horrible things to me.

[@yomiel9191]

Final moments of the 'Aurelian' arc broke me.

[@jondoe7036]

Asterix had to have broken some sort of record for how many times they'd retold that exact same joke in multiple different ways.

[@josjos2203]

Et tu, Brutus?

[@aarondevaldez9134]

Beware the Ides of March, Caesar!

[@Osric24]

But yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look about him...

[@comixproviderftw_02]

There’s nothing more heartbreaking than the kind of betrayal where one stabs the other and they stare right into each others eyes. One completely dead set and the other shocked, emotional and teary for some.

[@melowlw8638]

its giving penthesilea and achilles vibes (ive no idea what they felt except tht achilles fel in love but yeah,, stabby stabby)

[@raylordofkhalah28]

even worse heartbreak: the one that isnt emotionally shocked is the one stabbed, and the one sobbing is the betrayer

[@dokter3604]

True friends stab you in the front

[@melonlord1414]

Et tu Brute?

[@mediatorraptor3349]

Six and Mono from Little Nightmares 2

[@st4rk1113r]

In the case of Iroh, I'm sure that Zuko's betrayal broke his heart very deeply. But I think that what prevented him from resenting Zuko is applying whay he said to him "hope is something you give yourself" and so he kept hoping that Zuko would realise that he doesn't belong next to his father. That's why he's just happy when Zuko apologized.

[@matthewmuir8884]

Arcane has two really interesting examples of betrayal/perceived betrayal that don't paint either "betrayer" as heroic or evil for their betrayal: Vander betraying Silco, and Vi betraying Powder. In both cases, they originally had a very strong sibling-relationship with the person they would betray that was very much the two of them against the world, only for them to have a falling out that culminates in one of them betraying the other. And, in both cases, it is presented as nothing other than tragic. The similarities go even further when each example has their reunion years later: the betrayer deeply regrets their actions, and the betrayed wants to forgive them and go back to being siblings, only for them to be unable to reconcile due to what each of them has become. Silco forgives Vander for the betrayal, but he can't forgive that Vander stopped fighting Piltover and refuses to resume the fight. Jinx forgives Vi, but they can't reconcile because Vi can only recognize who Jinx used to be, not who she is now. "I thought, maybe you could love me like you used to, even though I'm different. …But you've changed too. So, here's to the new us." - Jinx.

[@melowlw8638]

dont make me cry ☹☹ i love arcane

[@johnnydarling8021]

Arcane is a masterpiece

[@charliefarmer4365]

Vi never meant to leave Powder: She was literally kidnapped while trying to cool off so she wouldn’t hit her sister,

[@MalzraAirwynn]

​@@charliefarmer4365 Yeah, that's the messed up thing about the whole situation. Vi absolutely should NOT have hit Powder, but like, Vi was also still a kid, who just watched her father figure and friends die because of Powder's explosive, when they were so close to escaping on their own. It's understandable why she would lose control, even if it wasn't right. And as much as he ****s up throughout the whole series, Marcus in this one moment actually has a point too because if he hadn't stopped Vi from running back, SIlco would have almost certainly had both sisters murdered. Only sparing Powder because he saw himself in her during Powder's perceived betrayal induced breakdown.

[@jonasquinn7977]

@Charlie Farmer just because she didn’t mean to leave doesn’t make it any less of a betrayal. She still slapped her sister and confirmed all her worst fears and insecurities before storming off It’s an understandable reaction but definitely still a betrayal from Powders perspective

[@CM-ry5pt]

Invincible has such a good betrayal storyline. The audience knows from episode 1 who betrays the guardians, they just don’t know why. But it’s still a mystery to the other characters, so it shifts the whole season from “who betrayed the guardians, will they figure it out?” to “what will happen when they find out it was him?” Makes for a very tense, suspenseful season.

[@stevejakab274]

Hitchcock's rule of suspense. The audience knowing there's a bomb that's going to go off (that the heroes don't know about) is much better than an unexpected explosion.

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

When Mark tells his dad that he wants to be just like him, and his dad comforts him and says that he will be, an otherwise heartwarming scene is so unsettling because you know his father is a murderer.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Like Columbo, but tonnes more blood and viscera

[@ChimeraMK]

Watching Omniman talk to anyone who was starting to figure it out was so tense. The dude can crush a head like a sparrow egg between his thighs and no one can stop him so those scenes always gave me a sense of dread.

[@Amy_the_Lizard]

@@williamchamberlain2263 Never would I have thought of that comparison, but you're not wrong! XD

[@jellyjeffrey7350]

I remember my child mind being absolutely blown by betrayal storylines. Just absolutely flabbergasted. Terra in Teen Titans? Devastated. Never saw it coming

[@PTp1ranha]

"I wonder why this episode is called 'Betrayal'. Ah I'm sure it's nothing." (Jokes aside, I was similarly shocked.)

[@marioaustin9312]

Unless you read the comics

[@buca117]

One of the most effective betrayals in mainstream fiction. She was so loveable, so sympathetic, so tragic, that you couldn't help but like her.

[@OmniGman]

The irony is that, in the original comics version of that storyline, the writer made it a lot more blatant that she was shady all along, but fans turned a blind eye because she was in a 'relationship' with Beast Boy. Even Deathstroke/Slade, her employer and 'lover' (yuck), notes she is nothing but generically evil 'just because…', and considers her a loose cannon. Animated Terra is so wildly different from her comics counterpart in terms of behavior that even some fans who had read the original 'The Judas Contract', thought she might be innocent, or that the cartoon writers might be trying to fake out the comic fans, right up until her actual betrayal.

[@marocat4749]

Even more once you realize in the fight with raven, she knew terra was up spo something and still gave her a chance :(

[@coyraig8332]

An interesting angle you didn't go into is when the traitor didn't think of it as a betrayal until a little while later. They wonder why the success didn't feel right, and then it hits them: "what have I done?"

[@lukeroberson2115]

This is called the "Zuko post Ba Sing Se arc."

[@kylajensen1957]

Yu-Gi-Oh attempted this with Noah’s betrayal when he steals Mokuba’s body. He wasn't a twist villain, but after Gozaburo abandoned him again he'd been acting like he was going to pull a switch. Then he steals Mokuba’s body and calls down the missile, dismissing the kindness Mokuba showed him... until he's in the chopper about to leave, and he breaks down in tears as he realizes he just threw away the only healthy relationship he had. I wish they could've fleshed it out more.

[@BraniaPearlrain]

The entire Luke plotline in Percy Jackson is just one giant betrayal plotline and I love it. Luke is by far one of the most interesting characters.

[@mikeg2306]

I disagree. Most of it seems just pasted on, especially at the end of the first book where it comes out of nowhere. Luke’s betrayal of Chronos at the end of Book 5 is awesome though! “I wasn’t the hero, Luke was” is one of the best lines in all of literature.

[@wjzav1971]

@@mikeg2306 And I disagree on that. Luke has been a smug asshole thoughout the whole series. But he totally was a good guy at the end? Nah, I didn't like that.

[@archivist_13]

Luke being a double traitor because of his own personal principles is awesome to me, dude had a goal he wanted to fullfil and realized too late Kronos wasn't going to provide it

[@lukeroberson2115]

​@mikeg2306 I think it works better when you re-read the first book. Then, you notice him giving the cursed shoes to Percy. You remember Hermes is the god of thieves, so it makes sense his son would be a good THIEF. You notice him set up Clarisse to take the fall. You notice he takes special interest in Percy because Kronos told him about Percy, so he knows getting Percy on his side would be a great thing. Luke's betrayal works really well in my mind and is set up great.

[@sadeknight9112]

My favorite version of fictional betrayal is when a character fully believes they’re doing the right thing because they’ve been conditioned by their society to view the group the protagonist is in as the bad guys. Then they go undercover for years as an idealized persona and genuinely join team good guy because the distinction between their hidden agenda and dedication to their new friends is becoming even harder to distinguish. When it comes to the actual reveal it’s almost like it goes off prematurely because the traitor forgets that the protagonist is vehemently opposed to his original motivations and asks him to help because they’re friends and that’s what friends do leading to an inevitable conflict and the traitor has to deal with the moral ramifications of his shattered actions and psyche for years to come and- Attack on Titan. I’m talking about Attack on Titan.

[@riluna3695]

It's a valuable thing to show in fiction, because it happens so painfully often in reality. There are countless little cultural bubbles that carefully control what information the people in them get access to, and they inevitably paint _some_ group or other as purely evil with no redeeming qualities. The most valuable thing for the people raised in these places is just plain Access to Information. And the way you presented it, where that person is a spy in the group, they get frequent information in the form of how their supposed enemies behave day-to-day, which will likely be VERY different from what that person's been told. Thus finding that they care about any of these people to any degree will be a realization that can potentially shake them to their core. Assuming they haven't been taught how to suppress thoughts like that, anyway... So yeah, fiction can be an excellent way to teach lessons like these to people, showing the problem and a potential solution in comparative safety. Learning the easy way, rather than the hard way.

[@A_Random_W33b]

My favorite betrayal of all time was Wheatley from Portal 2. He was a charming yet dimwitted companion who was so readily to help you achieve your goals. Yet once he goes on a power trip, his core character doesn't even change, he betrays you because he is such a charming yet dimwitted character to his core. True to his nature at the very end but makes his backstab all the more hurtful.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Was kinda very predictable and he was annoying as hell, but sorry telling wise it was still great especially if one liked him and so where more inclined to overlook the red flags

[@Himax9]

He is LITERALLY a bad idea generator. And trying to kill Chell is a VERY bad idea...

[@KoderKat]

I was hoping she would show Wheatley in this one. He was (and still is) one of my favorite characters of all time, and his betrayal hit me like a truck. The soundtrack that plays during it still gives me chills.

[@Iamtk777]

I can't help but love him even when he's trying to kill me. But, to be fair, it's not really his fault. Being plugged into that thing just kind of makes cores violent and sciency. Also, fun fact, when he tells you he can speak Spanish now, and rattles off some Spanish, what it says is "You are using the translation software incorrectly, please consult the manual."

[@dianauwu1312]

It's very much a "well what did you expect" moment, which offsets a lot of the predictability and (imo) makes Wheatley a fantastic antagonist.

[@chipmic9647]

It's 3 am and I'm still stuck mulling over the big betrayal scene in my story, so this could not have appeared at a better time! I'm convinced you must be an angel sent by the literary gods or something

[@cartoonishidealism582]

It’s probably because we’re nearing the anniversary of the most famous betrayal in history. Everyone get ready to say happy betrayal day to Julius Caesar this week

[@Zerpderp0]

She is a Muse clearly meant for mankind as a collective. Let us not let her go to waste. TOO THE WRITING TABLET!!!

[@fumkioyuki8457]

i would suggest you sleep but im not person tell you that when i sleep at 1 am

[@Zerpderp0]

@@fumkioyuki8457 sleep is for the week!!

[@Hamfrags]

@@Zerpderp0 And it's weekend! :D

[@krosanreaper]

The example of Katara vs Iroh forgiving Zuko is so good. (The reunion scene between Iroh and Zuko is so good, I'm not crying you're crying 😭)

[@unneccry2222]

i will correct you The ---- Iroh --- is so good Iroh is the best written character in the best written series

[@enlongjones2394]

“How can you forgive me so easily? I thought you’d be furious with me!” “I was never angry with you, Zuko. I was sad. I was afraid that you had lost your way.” “I did lose my way.” “And you found it again.”

[@SingingSealRiana]

@@unneccry2222 the biggest compliment I ever got and ever will get was from my best friends fiancee when she witnessed me giving relationship advice to my other best friend: " you are as wise as uncle Iroh" no achivement in life will ever beat this compliment!

[@unneccry2222]

@@SingingSealRiana "Achievment complete! Recieved title"

[@sirgarberto]

Yes. Yes I am.

[@Lowkeylie]

I won’t lie, I literally punched the air when you brought up Hawkgirl. Justice League once again lead the way showing how to handle a trope right. The best part about it is they really stick the follow through too. It’s not just forgotten. Her betrayal has a very tangible impact on the rest of the series. On Green Lantern’s love life. On Superman’s confidence in himself as a leader. In Wonder Woman’s ability to trust. In Shyera’s very sense of self. It really took her and elevated her as a character, and showed how complex these situations can be. This is the last line the voice actor for Alfred ever recorded before his passing and as always, his character has a great talent for putting things in perspective: “I’m neither a soldier or a superhero, and am therefore unqualified to judge your actions by those standards. But I do know that without the sacrifices you made, we wouldn’t be here right now to share this nice pot of tea. Whatever they decide in there, in my eyes you’ll always be a hero.”

[@purplemonkey857]

The first-order trooper yelling "Traitor!" To Finn was amazing

[@Broomer52]

For a faceless trooper it was probably the most epic part of the movie for me

[@mr_indie_fan]

Good scene for a garbage movie.

[@ToaArcan]

TR-8R got to be a boss fight in _two_ Lego games.

[@marctaco2624]

His 8 seconds had more character than anyone else in the trilogy

[@KrazyStargazer]

I desperately wanted there yo some sort of history between those two!

[@bobwilison6321]

Still the most compelling betrayal in all of literature to me is Griffith and Guts. The foreshadowing was brillant, because every chance he got, Griffith chose his ambitions over himself, his other comrades, or people in general. The audience just wanted to believe that he had a limit, that he wouldn't sacrifice his best friend for power, which I think is the most important take-away. The most effective betrayals come from those you can logically see betraying you, but emotionally see as impossible.

[@beckyginger3432]

And griffith sees guts leaving as a betrayal and guts doesn't see it that way

[@sarafontanini7051]

what's more we're told the betrayal will happen from the beginning of the story (as the opening arc or two is set AFTER the betrayal happened) so it becomes a question not of a betrayal happening at all but rather how and why the betrayal happens

[@drakengarfinkel3133]

And the best part is that, reading the Black Swordsman Arc first, you know how it ends. You know something bad has to happen to Guts and all his comrades. You just don’t want to believe it. And then it happens. And you knew you should have seen it coming.

[@ohnojojo2262]

Rip Chad king Miura 😭

[@animalia5554]

Here’s a quote from a character who has been nothing but supportive of our characters in their darkest hours, hasn’t betrayed them YET, yet many fans of the series expect he WILL betray them at some point in the future because of said quote. “…while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I want, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen.”

[@Dr.Starbound]

After reading Tress of the Emerald Sea, I'm even more terrified of what will happen when that day comes.

[@afasdfasafd314]

cant blame him, odium is the maxium multiversal threat so it makes sense, that doesn't make him a traitor IMO

[@Dr.Starbound]

@@afasdfasafd314 I would argue that Autonomy takes that, unless we are talking about Todium. Rodium

[@Edward-W]

Seeing Sanderson's books referenced is always a pleasant surprise Anyways. I love this man to bits (especially after SP1) and I so wish we'll never have to see that hypothetical come true. It would break me and hurt our beloved characters who are already suffering enough lol

[@afasdfasafd314]

@@Dr.Starbound i mean, at least autonomy is not trying to destroy everything else and start a cosmic war

[@MegaEdeath]

id love for in a story where a forgetful character makes a huge plot based betrayal just because he forgot which side he was on, even the villains were like "no wait, werent you on their side?"

[@DoveJS]

That sounds like a great short comedy to me! It'd be even better (well, IMHO anyway, YMMV lol) if basically he forgot because he instantly fell in love with one of the villains and he just kind of forgot what he was there for because he got so distracted trying to win over his crush. So the other heroes are trying to get him to focus, the other villains are confused if they haven't recognized the signs, and the protagonist is just clueless while happily trying to woo the one villain who I personally hope will reciprocate because it's more funny and sweet to me if the villainous love interest is also immediately charmed and excited by this silly guy but doesn't try to take advantage of him per se, they're just trying to keep forgetful and their own self safe and spend more time with him before the inevitable (from their initial POV) defeat of the heroes. Kind of like the trope where the big boss villain's daughter falls for the hero but this could be a sidekick and any genders honestly. For an alternative option that's not romance or lust based, forgetful guy realized his childhood friend was on the villain side and he's so excited to catch up that he's just randomly trying to help his friend out whenever he sees his friend struggling (while never actively directly harming the other heroes unless they're being jerks about it) and his friend is very confused but truly adores this big lug so the friend just keeps saying, "Thanks, man!" And forgetful is gleefully going, "Happy to oblige!" and everyone else around them is SOOO confused! And maybe how the heroes ultimately win is this clueless guy's friend realizes they'd rather just hang out with clueless guy instead of doing whatever they were doing for their original motivation. Maybe the real treasure was the friend we reconnected with in the villain's lair! 🤣😂 😊🥰😄 Edit: lol of course he could just permanently switch sides because maybe the villains aren't that horrible, it's super low stakes at school or little league or one of the opposing clubs trying to get space for an event, and he just stays on that side with his friend/love interest. Second edit: Bonus points if it's BOTH... childhood friend and love interest (could be two characters or just one) and they just decide to drop the whole thing and leave together because the other heroes/villains are now third wheel scenario at best and the situation they've met in is hazardous to both of them at worst.

[@ConnanTheCivilized]

“Seriously, Dory!? Stop eating the kids!”

[@zaza_ink]

Sounds like me with adhd playing any team sport in elementary school like, “why do I keep helping team yellow when I’m on team blue? Beats me man. Idk where I am rn 🤷”

[@DoveJS]

@ZaZa Ink. lol reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbes short story arc where Calvin joins a little league softball team (or maybe just plays during school i forget) and he doesn't know they swap places periodically and no one tries to tell him, so when his team goes to bat he stays out in left field and is so excited to actually catch the ball, only to discover he got his own team mate out and they're all angry with him! Lol, relatable

[@MarkATorres1989]

This explanation really helps put things in perspective. Reminds me of an old tabletop RPG campaign session years ago. Had a Farmer turned Mercenary character with his backstory of his home village being under the tyrannical control of a dragon. Force to run away from home due to killing a noble that served the dragon in self-defense. Joined a party of misfits that were also wronged by said dragon and other warlords. Lots of stuff happen but it boiled down to three major events. - The party, after they all had their time of disagreement and pointing fingers of who could be a traitor, all suspected the Mercenary mostly due to him living in the territories of said dragon warlord by both 'The Brains' and 'Leader' of the party. Despite several bounty hunters actually coming by and trying to kill the Merc. - Party did not attempt to help Merc's problem and his hometown when they finally got to the territories... really embittered the Merc to the party. - Party debated on the idea of parleying and making a deal with another dragon to help them fight the evil dragon - Merc did not like dragons at this point and none of the dragons he met made a good impression on him either. - What happen? The Merc betrayed the party when both dragons were exhausted from fighting each other by rallying his fellow townsmen to prepare ballistic fire and catapults. He made sure to pace him to not wear out his own resources, and let the party burn themselves out to make a good impression for their dragon friend. - When the betrayal happen and they asked why. The Merc's reply was: "I nor my kinsmen will ever be shackle to another dragon tyrant or their allies again." and then he and two of his ally assassins brutally stabbed the key spell casters of the party to ensure there will be no magical fun times for them. The dragons were killed and the party was defeated. - The players were shocked but it made the most sense when looking back at the actions taken. No I was not the Merc, I was the DM of that campaign and I saw the signs well in advance. Though I figured I'd let it roll and see what happens. - There was no bad blood between the players, especially when the Merc's player laid out his notes and facts on why he did it.

[@jackbaxter2223]

So who was the traitor in the party?

[@MarkATorres1989]

@@jackbaxter2223 From my personal take. The party betrayed the Merc first with their lack of attempt to help the Merc with his problems and the few times he did asked if they could go about with certain situations. Such as helping his village as it was under the control of another noble that served the dragon tyrant. - I had to keep note of how the npcs were reacting to the party and the interactions, which it became clear the majority of the party did not want to stay and help. Just help and move on quickly. - This constant moving forward for reward only made the Merc more bitter to deal with the party and was working with them less and less, well more like... he still fought alongside them without hesitation, but did not wish to talk with the party members as much afterwards.

[@christianvondruska8244]

Honestly I love that kind of Traitor, "I was actually willing to fight by your side but you pushed me away, what else was I supposed to do?"

[@jammo7370]

Imagine if red released this on april fools with the implication that blue betrayed her in some massive way but it turns out he just pranked her by swapping out her tea bags for another blend or some shit

[@Dark_Tale_2077]

Nothing hurts more than when you find yourself loving a character, start analyzing what they are doing, and realize they might be a traitor. Then the story confirms it and you still can't believe it. Those are the best kind.

[@fallentitan9811]

Meanwhile Starscream is betraying everyone or anyone he can every five minutes. I always loved that about Transformers, one of the questions of the episode is almost always “Is Starscream gonna try to betray someone this episode”

[@animeotaku307]

More “how is Starscream going to stay on Megatron’s good side after betraying him this time.”

[@pRahvi0]

A wise (and/or mad) man [Jack Sparrow] said: "a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest." So from a certain point of view, is it even betrayal anymore when it's so anticipated that withholding it would feel more of a betrayal at that point?

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@pRahvi0 Interesting question. It's kind-of like the argument that stage magic is one of the few honest businesses because the audience goes in expecting deception.

[@hellocentral5551]

@@matthewmuir8884 Ironic, that we'll believe a liar's lie more surely than an honest man's truth.

[@StealthMarmot_]

That trope is "Chronic Backstabbing Disorder" and is one of the funniest things when it gets ridiculous

[@quinnsinclair7028]

This is reminding me of the UA Traitor arc in My Hero Academia in which both the red herring and the actual traitor were extreme side characters that were just kinda in the background of a lot of plots cause they needed extra characters to fill out the class roster. When the reveal came, the manga acted like it was this big shocking betrayal, and I was just sitting there going, "What was his name again?"

[@DavidbarZeus1]

Odd, because the actual traitor was one of my main suspects

[@iug5672]

That's pretty accurate. Honestly with how underwhelming the traitor plot was it almost gives too much credit to those fake rumors about the author forgetting about said plot. Messily handled honestly.

[@sev1120]

I think that that's a good meta storytelling moment. You always expect a member of the core cast to be the traitor, so when the forgettable side character with a power he can't fully control turns out to be the traitor, it's surprising that they did it.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

That situation with Hawkgirl was heartbreaking. I think it's best when you see that the one doing the betrayal is actually conflicted about it.

[@SingingSealRiana]

I feel like those are special cases and gray zone of betrayals cause it is never really a betrayal of you never where on their side. Starting out on another side and then switching a bit to late is morally so much different to me then betraying someone and then trying to make it right again, I am so much less willing to forgive the second example, then the first

[@Canadamus_Prime]

@@SingingSealRiana I don't necessarily mean that they try and make it right again I just mean that they feel remorse.

[@angeldude101]

Something I noticed is that she always has her mask on like the others of her kind before the betrayal, but after betraying them in turn, she's almost _never_ seen with her mask again.

[@belisarian6429]

And it was heartbreaking even after, in episode with Grundy, show didnt pulled any punches on her.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

@@belisarian6429 It really really didn't.

[@azazelreeds]

You know I never realized until you made the comparison between Mace Windu and Darth Sidious, but man Vader really do have a habit of stabbing people in the back.

[@rogerogue7226]

Hey, that is an unwarrented and unfair characterisation! He slashed Windu from the side, and picked up Sidious from the back!

[@CrownofMischief]

Vader doesn't operate on a moral compass. His decision making is based solely on what is the most dramatic thing possible at the moment. When put into that context, suddenly everything he does makes sense. Is it logical to ask your son to join you after cutting his hand off? No, but it's more dramatic. Same goes for killing impressionable younglings instead of recruiting them.

[@Rachel-fi4sc]

I have THOUGHTS about Anakin/Vader's murder of the younglings. I think there are ways that Lucas could even have played it... if not sympathetically, then maybe understandably. It will never be /right/ to take the life of a child, but if you've grown up enslaved through your formative years, and have just realized you've locked a chain around your own neck and handed it to another enslaver for the sake of protecting someone else, and you want to spare the children you've found from what will happen to them at the hands of the person who now owns you....

[@toddcrim7012]

I love how red used Percy from critical role as an example. in my opinion, Percy is the embodiment of the aftermath of betrayal

[@chibibluemouse]

I believe Red used Percy specifically as an example of backstory betrayal, where a person experienced a betrayal in the past. You're right on the money with where Percy lies on the Betrayal trope spectrum, but Red wasn't saying Percy betrayed anyone. Rather that Percy was the one betrayed, thus fueling his character motivations.

[@toddcrim7012]

@@chibibluemouse True i agree

[@herbertvonbismarck8303]

I wonder if red will do a character talk on Critical role

[@toddcrim7012]

@@herbertvonbismarck8303 I would like that but on the other hand, she would have to sift through hours of critical role vods. and she has stated that she can't really watch it because of the passing

[@TheBriguy1998]

@@toddcrim7012 Sorry, but what do you meant by "the passing"?

[@Edd_Harr]

Saying "this could drive a fundamentally good guy to do all kinds of horrible things to maintain cover" while the Flash/Lex Luther scene was playing got a wheeze laugh out of me

[@ParasaurolophusZ]

Even not washing his hands, how evil!

[@Dr.Starbound]

@@ParasaurolophusZ I love that Flash had the choice to just go along with what the magnet guy said but decided that Lex Luthor was just this contrarian asshole for no reason. Just... that whole situation was amazing.

[@adambielen8996]

@@Dr.Starbound How horrified the magnet guy was is just brilliant.

[@abiean222]

@@adambielen8996 even evil has standards

[@tsgooch5198]

"Any betrayal you can see is trivial. What is truly frightening, and much more lethal, is the betrayal you cannot see." - Sousuke Aizen, Bleach episode 211

[@catlover2223]

Darn you Aizen! Why did you have to be so good at illusions?!

[@guillermopena8412]

I can't believe that Red betrayed Blue like that. After everything they've been through. Sure her tragic backstory foreshadowed that she would side with Cyan eventually. But the bond! All those days of training together. All those nights talking about their goals to be the strongest that ever was? Did all that mean nothing?! WHAT WAS IT ALL FOR?!?!?!?!

[@kereminde]

... I heard that last bit from the distant past, from Mega Man X4.

[@Meteorlink]

@@kereminde "what am i fighting foooor?!"

[@EvilOverlord1662]

I read this in Red's voice

[@jessefanshaw8948]

@@EvilOverlord1662 i read it in red’s voice complete with the voice cracks

[@Jorlem25]

Red's motivation was that she REALLY wanted that comfy looking chair for the trope talks. I can't believe she banished Blue to the formless white void.

[@anjetto1]

Ty Lee turning on Azula got cheers and gasps in the room full of grown adults I first saw it in. Basically, the greatest Face turn in animated history

[@titaniumteddybear]

I once read that betrayal is so hated because its effectiveness is directly proportional to how unexpected it is. And I think they've got a point.

[@alexconn7473]

One form of betrayal I think is probably severely underused is the unwilling betrayal where the traitor doesn't want to betray their friends but feels they have to because the bad guy has some kind of leverage over them like the bad guy is holding the traitor's loved ones hostage and promises to let them go if the traitor betrays their friends or something like that where the traitor has a understandable reason for their betrayal even if it isn't necessarily a good one

[@jordanread5829]

Sometimes the leverage could even be a literal death switch on the person. So they have to choose between their own life, or their friends.

[@JarieSuicune]

I wouldn't count that as a betrayal unless the Bad Guy already had the leverage set in advance and the traitor knew in advance what was going on. If it happens suddenly, late on, then it isn't a betrayal because they weren't hiding their true character/motives. Like in the anime Charlotte, when the traitor gets revealed around the middle and they explain that there was basically nothing the main characters could do to alter time enough to save both the traitor's family and the gifted children. Fortunately, in this situation the traitor reveal is given sympathy due to the scenario and the main character manages to put the hurt on the bad guys as well... though at the cost of not being able to undo the torture, abuse, and death caused by the bad guys along the way and trapping themselves in a much harder situation.

[@JarieSuicune]

@@jordanread5829 Then again, is it really a betrayal to decide "I just don't want to die?" Counterpoint: if the one being "betrayed" in this scenario is the Hero then they "should" be ok with dying rather than the other person because, as the Hero, they would not choose to have another person die in their place. That's part of what makes them a Hero, taking the hit for others. What it DOES do, however, is possibly mark that person as selfish or a coward. And the heroes might feel betrayed! Choosing to not be the one in "the one VS the many" is a common ethical question.

[@GaijinEncarmine]

@@JarieSuicune I'm personally of the view that while it's completely reasonable to be angry at someone who betrays you to survive, it's also not rational at all. It would be absurd to say that someone doesn't have the right to preserve their own life.

[@maru5522]

tower of god does this rly well :) except the betrayer's motivation is a personal gain she has dreamed abt all her life

[@akidra0519]

I'd love to see a trope talk on madness. There's so much nuance in the topic and execution and the chaotic side of the alignment system doesn't get enough love

[@GrimmDelightsDice]

Madness itself being referred to as a trope is bordering on ableism and probably something too broad to be covered even if it weren't.

[@akidra0519]

@@GrimmDelightsDice this is exactly why a trope talk on it would be interesting. The first thing you have to establish is what exactly does "madness" even mean, and then how has it historically been executed, how has it been problematic, why can it be compelling, etc

[@GrimmDelightsDice]

@@akidra0519 I don't really think that's the style of the Trope Talk videos. Something with contentious/sensitive potential which is very, very broad isn't the type of thing Red seems to cover for TT. If they ever did cover it, it would probably be in a long-form less scripted video if at all. If you're looking for that type of content, though, I recommend Hello Future Me's videos on writing mental illness.

[@akidra0519]

@@GrimmDelightsDice I have to disagree on it not being Red's style. Besides that they can cover whatever interests them, they have an episode on Amnesia, which is just as contentious a subject as madness from the scope of reality vs its fictional portrayal. I've seen Tim's videos on the subject, I'm just curious on OSP's take

[@laszlokaszas1003]

​​​@@akidra0519 If you are interested in the topic you should check out Spice8Rack new video: Madness, Memory, Mill&Discard. Even if you don't like Magic the Gathering, it's one of the best video essays about depiction of madness.

[@samtracton6452]

Gonna be honest, I kind of wish this episode was sponsored by World Anvil just to hear Red come up with the tagline to connect them to this trope. Like "World Anvil. They'll surely never stab you in the back".

[@kirstenpaff8946]

My least favorite version of the betrayal trope is the one where characters think they have been betrayed (and therefore will often do even more betrayal to get revenge) because of miscommunication. This one is so common in romance stories. Character A sees love interest B with someone else and immediately assumes that love interest B is cheating on them, even though 99% of the time, the other character is someone that B would never be romantically involved with like a sibling, childhood friend who is like a sibling, or someone of a sexual orientation that is not attracted to B. The entire situation could have been cleared up with a 10 second conversation, but NOOOO, we need a 10 chapter long angst fest where character A acts like a jerk to B or completely avoids them and then B feels betrayed as well.

[@boobah5643]

The worst bit there is that it implies the relationship has problems that lead to those jumped conclusions, but everybody just pretends that the only problem is that specific inciting "betrayal."

[@scarletgiry3958]

The character Mara from House of Anubis literally frustrated me to no end for this exact trope. One example of this is when instead of healthily talking things out with her boyfriend, she gets jealous of him spending time training with his female teacher and what does she do? Photoshops (badly btw) pictures of her boyfriend training with his teacher to make it look like their relationship was more than it was and anonymously sends it to the principal, which gets the teacher fired and her boyfriend expelled. Then she wants to pull a shocked pikachu face at the consequences of her actions, like I'm sorry, what did you think was going to happen?! I love House of Anubis but omg was Mara annoying! I don't know why the writers made her boyfriend forgive her (eventually), like he should have run for the hills after that experience.

[@uarthchylde]

see also: real life

[@davidbjacobs3598]

Okay, but Shakespeare's Othello is pretty good though.

[@AlixL96]

I think there can be a lot of good drama in the kind of betrayal Red dislikes. When someone betrays you and turns out to be a completely different person from who they pretended to be, it open up the door for paranoia, it makes characters question their own judgement in who to trust and wonder how much else could be hiding from them. And even if there's actually an obvious way to be sure that the rest of your friends can be trusted, we can still get a lot of drama from the pain of losing a relationship you thought you could rely on. She says you can't mourn the loss of something that never existed, but to the person who was betrayed, the trust and rapport they felt for the traitor very tangibly existed.

[@christianvondruska8244]

But that's the thing, the relationship between Protagonist and andtagonist with this type of "betrayal" (which it's not) is entirely one sided. The antagonist feels nothing for the protagonist so they don't feel anything from the "betrayal." And the thing is, you can still get the emotional consequence of paranoia from the other kinds of betrayal as well.

[@thegreatmilkguitar]

My least favourite part about betrayal is the fake “because of the circumstances” betrayal. Specifically when there is literally nothing stopping the character from telling the others WHY they are doing what they’re doing, and instead opting to throw out “but waits” and “you don’t understand” IMO it’s the lowest form of suspense and never feels even remotely real

[@kitsunefirefox1986]

One of my favorite scenes in Gargoyles is when the betrayer of the Gargoyle Clan falls off a cliff & Goliath screams "I've been denied everything; even my revenge!"

[@Dr.Starbound]

It's a great moment because that really leaves Goliath with nothing but saves him from falling to the depths of Demona. If Goliath had killed the man there, Demona could forever lord over his head that when push came to shove she was right.

[@randomnephilim]

Red-"It's going to get a lot louder, the stuff the heat is subjected to is going to change, and something might catch fire." My favorite quote so far.

[@themantyf1116]

The timing is weird and it could be handled better, but "The Mask of Zorro" actually does explain how Montero figures Zorro's identity: he recognizes him from their quipping at the beginning, although he still has to check the wound to be completely sure. The fact that they were both rivals, pining for the same woman, explains why he would be familiar enough with Diego to notice. It's not a perfect explanation, but it IS there.

[@vgamer4993]

Without any spoilers, One Piece has quite possibly the best use of “it was all 100% an act the entire time” betrayal I’ve seen, because while it was all an act, the sheer _lengths_ that the traitor went through to hide their betrayal before revealing it actually adds to the gut punch when you realize that none of it meant anything. Not to mention that it adds so many twisted dimensions to the traitor because of just how far they took their deception.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

As someone who is truly enjoying One Piece and doesn’t mind spoilers, could you at least tell me what arc the betrayal happens?

[@BLZ231]

Wano

[@artofthepossible7329]

I'm fond of the idea that a character can state their ideals and their goals during their first interaction with the other main characters (or at least, have a very high-quality Establishing Character Moment), and the other characters are utterly shocked/terrified when they realise that the character in question was not joking in the slightest.

[@Alias_Anybody]

"Wait, why doesn't this phase you?!?" "Because I expect any of you to betray me at any point in time. I try not getting attached too much"

[@2dtrash19]

Betrayal, when executed well, is literally one of my favourite tropes ever. Maybe it's the fact I'm a wrestling fan so betrayals in fiction remind me of things like "This is My Moment" or Seth Rollins attacking The Shield and joining The Authority, but I just love to see a betrayal that makes you feel Strongly about the traitor.

[@phoneyphil5663]

I can still hear that guy screaming 'No!' before the chair shot

[@Windthroughcedars]

I think Iroh’s forgiveness of Zuko’s betrayal was bare none for me, one of the best expressions of love put to film. Like no words of anger, no one ups, just acceptance love amd trust after being betrayed. Tears everytime. I also think that’s one of the reasons Zuko’s character is so popular. Iroh forgiving him, and having the betrayal plot line have such a satisfying ending makes it easier for the audience to forgive him and look at it as character growth. Zuko truly humbled and doing the work is even more important but Iroh forgiveness and the greatness of the forgiveness scene just really let you the viewer let go of any lingering resentment.

[@TheWatcher51393]

One of my favorite examples of this trope that wasn't mentioned in the video was that of Grant Ward in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. What seemed to be one of the most glaring flaws of the first season- Brett Dalton's milquetoast, one-dimensional, square-jawed agent character- was actually a genius fake-out. When the HYDRA uprising happened within Phase 1 of the MCU, his suspicious blankness was revealed to not be an accident or piss-poor acting (at least, not entirely), but rather that he was a deep cover sleeper agent for HYDRA. He recurred thereafter as a villain for MOST of his time on the show, the betrayal rippling across multiple seasons, and he was way more fun and interesting that way. They even pulled an alternate reality reverse of this when, in a simulated reality where HYDRA has taken over the world, he was actually a deep cover sleeper agent for the "Good Guys" resistance movement. Brilliant.

[@TheHero136]

“You know what the worst thing about betrayal? It never comes from an enemy.” ~Obi Wan Kenobi

[@JoeMH1995]

Face-Heel Traitors can have a very interesting relationship with paragons. If your paragon has treated the traitor honourably at every turn, and the traitor still decides it is necessary to stab the paragon in the back, its the ultimate test of a paragon's ability to forgive. If they keep trying to give the traitor a chance, then the paragon can seem painfully naive to both the audience and the other characters. But if the redemption lands, it is a great victory for your hero, as well as a way to open up all kind of interesting new dynamics.

[@brendanb2982]

Since we're using " face-heel ", Jey Uso is basically Prince Zuko as a wrestler. He's a ticking time bomb product of generational trauma and doesn't know what the fuck to do. Last week on Raw was literally what happened in the ATLA season 2 finale. God damn it I love wrestling.

[@wisdommanari6701]

I feel that red and blue specifically are very familiar and comfortable with this trope, for nonspecific Among Us, Jessie and James related reasons.

[@dwanpol-lovesdonuts]

The Flash hugging Hawkgirl shows the weight of betrayal when it's done well because he forgives her, making her betrayal hurt so much more.

[@Maggus935]

There's a special kind of betrayal writing that grinds my gears because it makes everyone involved look dumb. It's when it comes from the person everyone knew will betray. "He won't betray us, he needs us. Maybe less than we need him, but he said he won't do it, so it's fine. It's safe to give him his gun back. Oh no! Why would he do that! I can't belive that just happened! Let's give him another chance though. I'm certain he won't betray us twice."

[@angrygoose23]

Yeah I hate that too. I especially hate it when the hero decides to give the ex bad guy a chance to redeem themselves out of the goodness of their hearts and the bad guy ends up going “HA! Gotcha!” It just makes the hero’s kindness look stupid and naive which isn’t really the sort of message I enjoy getting from stories.

[@sylvy16]

@@angrygoose23”it isn’t a message i enjoy getting from stories” but maybe it should be talked about more cause it happens in real life all the time. kind people usually get taken advantage of much easier because they are more trusting which is something i have first hand experience with. the reason i really hate this trope because it’s just very stupid to trust someone to have changed without any evidence of that. it shows that maybe we should forgive people very easily even if they haven’t done anything to deserve it

[@jocelantonettetenoc5996]

Raya and The Last Dragon in a nutshell

[@lukeroberson2115]

Starscream in Transformers Prime whenever he claims to wanna be on the good guys's side.

[@CMelon-xe1qc]

I kind of love it, though, in a specific circumstance. Like say these characters loved the betrayer before. Then it’s just absolutely devastating (but kind of adorable) to watch them be like “we loved them and they betrayed us and they keep saying they’re gonna betray and they probably will but we still love them. We can’t help but trust them because we love them.”

[@quintonclothier6171]

A betrayal that has stuck with me, is the one in book 5 of Percy Jackson and the Olympians. It’s established early on in this book that Camp Half-Blood has a traitor who is leaking information to the big bad. This comes right before a character death, so you know the traitor means business. Spoilers from here on out. The character who died, Charles Beckendorf, was the representative of the Hephaestus cabin. He was dating Silena Beauregard, the representative of Aphrodite’s cabin, who was best friends with Clarisse La Rue, notedly hardheaded representative of the Ares cabin. When he dies, Silena is devastated, and blames herself. Eventually, the battle of Manhattan starts, and near the end, Chronos/Luke sends an enemy the traitor told him they couldn’t kill: a Drakon, prophesied to be killed by a child of Ares. Because the entire Ares cabin is off sulking, Silena runs off to get them. “Clarisse” shows up, in full armour, along with the rest of the cabin. As she’s dealt a lethal blow, the real Clarisse shows up, berates Silena for disguising herself, and her cabin for going along with it, and defeats the monster. As Silena lays dying, she reveals her secret: she was the traitor. She tried to right her mistake in the end, and while others saw her as a traitor, Clarisse insisted that she was a hero, because of that sacrifice.

[@JennyBlaze253]

Gods, the Percy Jackson quintology slapped so hard.

[@colt9836]

One of my favorite moments of "betrayal" comes from season one of Black Butler. The antagonist is talking about his plans to overthrow the protagonist to one of the latter's associates. And when said protagonist tells said antagonist that said associate tells him about the plans, the antag is like: "What!? He betrayed me!?" And the protag is like: "Not at all; he was never on your side to begin with."

[@TheDualWieldingGamer]

One of my favorite “betrayal” scenes in my recent memory is when Tarzan took Jane, Archimedes, and Clayton to the gorilla nest in the Disney movie. After a whole first act of trying to earn Kerchak’s trust to watch it all fade away in his eyes the second he sees Tarzan not only ignored his warnings about interacting humans, but brought them into the family’s home is heartbreaking. Tarzan did it out of love for his new companions (and in Clayton’s case naïveté) but there was no doubt he loved his family still. But Kerchak can no longer see that, just the pain of being betrayed by someone he considered to be part of his family. And seeing that puts Tarzan into a state of confusion about where he wants to belong until the climax kicks off. It’s an incredibly moving moment and it hits you right in the heart. I don’t think it’s the same type of betrayal as discussed in the video, but I felt it was worth mentioning as an example.

[@Alfenheimer]

Betrayal is the one thing we have the hardest time forgiving. It is near impossible to repair a relationship when one has betrayed the other in a serious manner. It's why when someone's partner cheats on the other it's usually not going to be fixed afterword, and won't feel the same even if it is.

[@azureorpheus4293]

I think it's fun when the *characters* know about the betrayal before the *audience* does. Albeit I've only seen it done once, that being Persona 5, which also explores the character's personality post-reveal.

[@unneccry2222]

wow a lot of people say p5 is good maybe i should play it once

[@azureorpheus4293]

@@unneccry2222 I think it's very good, myself, esp Royal

[@NightspeakerR]

Betrayal is a moment when the character begins to trial themselves to go on their own while leaving everything behind.

[@joeljames2683]

I think a really interesting version of this came in Agents of SHIELD. Spoilers, but when Ward betrayed the team, it was revealed that his stoic nature was a facade to hide his volatile personality. This changes the character, but not without notice. Earlier in the season, he came into contact with a magic relic that forced him to confront his darkest memory. Because of his interaction he became more angry and cruel. The other characters wrote it off as a temporary fit of anger, but they would come to find out that this was who Ward really is. It was really clever foreshadowing.

[@livingandthriving]

Yes! And a lot of other little things retroactively made much more sense after the reveal. Honestly, I think that storyline is my favorite example of this trope. Truly excellent writing.

[@MikeJones-js5ly]

I was literally thinking this exact thing while watching the video! The first betrayal type perfectly described Ward. Him pretending to be a great guy and turning out to be a violent, disciplined sociopath is done so well. God, Agents of Shield was such a great show. Excellent writing and character development.

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@MikeJones-js5ly My main problem with Ward's characterization post-betrayal was that it seemed more like two different characters: the violent disciplined sociopath, and the tragic boy who was groomed by a sociopath. Don't get me wrong; it is possible to write a sociopath with a tragic backstory; Wrath from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is a great example. But how Ward was portrayed after the reveal came across less as a sociopath with a tragic history, and more like two different characters played by the same actor with their scenes cut together randomly. For just one example: one sign of a sociopath is a lack of capacity for remorse. This is something the writers were aware of since they had this with Garrett and with Ward's older brother, but for Ward, sometimes he's shown to be incapable of true remorse for his actions; other times he's shown to have real remorse, and it's really jarring and inconsistent. Compare this with Wrath, who never once shows remorse and never once drops his callousness towards others; even when he tells Roy Mustang his tragic backstory, he does so in a blank tone as if reading someone's personnel file.

[@jeepersreapers353]

The long awaited betrayal trope talk! Hyped for this one

[@willowarkan2263]

I almost feel like this could have been a great april first candidate. The ultimate betrayal.

[@tanandalynch9441]

I love that you included Syndrome in the "someone thinks the hero they adored betrayed them" because he's a perfect example of that despite it not being the case at all.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

also big shout outs to the "turns out the betrayal was part of the plan" version, because you can still have the heartbreak if only the leader knew

[@adamsbja]

The clip shown from Young Justice ("Who's next?" "I am" I swear I was joking.") kinda plays one of those on the audience, because a bunch of characters *were* being manipulated into acting against the team and leading them into a trap, but then it flashbacks to them all coming clean to each other beforehand and then playing along to reverse the ambush.

[@Barianus]

I do find the scenes where villains get betrayed and don't just go into a rant or pull the "I was expecting that" thing. When a villain has been nothing but delighted and personally caring towards a hero infiltrating their organizations to betray them reacts with appropriate betrayal emotions, it does give a fun glimpse of what could have been and gives them more depth.

[@Truck-kun11]

I don't know if it counts as Betrayal, but the "Liar's Reveal" trope is something very similar, and when used well it's a very tragic thing to see happen, especially when the character had a good reason to keep the lie.

[@karlgrimm3027]

90% of the time the Liar's Reveal just sucks you almost always see it coming and you know what the result will be like in A Bugs Life or Ten things I hate about you, you know the lie and you know when in the movie it will be revealed.

[@selahanany5645]

The thing about liar revealed is that its free tension that the author doesn't have to work for, which is why it's abused so often.

[@kirakoraawesome]

0:13 I could see this happening in the Batman cannon. Batman and red hood are just having a completely normal mundane conversation, and then red hood starts yelling about murdering joker.

[@Krahazik]

I loved the inclusion of Gargoyals, She-ra, and Slayers in this one. Such good ones. Also, the mention of a classic, mole inserted into place A to gather information and set up a takeover, but the mole is there so long they grow to actually care about the place and the people there with. Mole = "But boss, you can't blow up the planet, I kind of like it here." - Boss = "You weren't supposed to get attached."

[@GrimGoblinLives]

Do not forget the greatest betrayal of them all. "King Dragon sends his regards."

[@ThexAngryxPharoah]

I just love how they adapted the poetions of Tower of Babel for Hawkgirl with how she left the league

[@Cody-5501]

i love the quotes that come from a good betrayal "thats one less loose end" "i was the mole" and who could forget "hello, Zuko here" edit: changed goof to good

[@vickypedia1308]

I'd love to know what qualifies as a "goof betrayal"

[@Cody-5501]

@@vickypedia1308 “Mickey the truth is I’m a sleeper agent guhoy”

[@CrownofMischief]

​@@vickypedia1308 "So Mickey, you say you want to divorce Minnie because she is... extremely silly?" "No, I said she was f*cking Goofy!"

[@NotesFromTheVoid]

Honestly, I think Iroh did use some of that time in gaol to work through his feelings about Zuko's betrayal because that must have hurt. Katara and Zuko had a moment together, but they weren't friends. Iroh stuck with Zuko through SO MUCH SHIT, that's the betrayal that really hurt. I have no idea how Iroh has that much patience within him, it's honestly aspirational.

[@josephperez2004]

To be fair, Iroh basically adopted Zuko. He says about as much in the penultimate episode from the Book of Water about how ever since his own son died, he's sort of treated Zuko as a surrogate son, to the extent that he willingly followed him into exile. He genuinely loves him and understands that Zuko has alot to learn and to work through.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

That's not actually very strange, it's just being a good parent. If you love your child (and Iroh *is* Zuko's dad), then it doesn't matter what they do; you will continue to give them whatever they need.

[@NotesFromTheVoid]

@Scott's Precious Little Account yeah, i know, my mum told me that spelling it "jail" was wrong when i was small and now i spell it gaol and i cannot stop myself.

[@SingingSealRiana]

It's called love, iroh knew zuko was not good, he knew all his flaws and he loved him anyway, the betrayal was not a surprise to iroh and he was to busy being sad for zuko to be mad for himself

[@UrpleSquirrel]

In Iroh's case, I think he was deeply hurt - you can see it in the way he refused to talk to Zuko while he was in jail at first - but he was being completely honest when he told Zuko he was scared for him that he'd lost his way and gone back to his abusive father. Seeing that Zuko was genuinely sorry and had realized what a horrible mistake he made was such a relief that Iroh could easily forgive the hurt.

[@charlottecochran2337]

I'm plotting a D&D campaign with one of my friends who will be a member of the party, but she will secretly be the villain the whole time. I've noticed that people normally trust their party members in D&D bc they think that person is just another person thrown into the adventure knowing only the things everyone knows.

[@BvzSA]

One thing to note: I've been in a campaign where this happened(I was the traitor, in fact). While I really enjoyed it, a few of the players afterwards were genuinely upset that this was an allowed thread in the game without discussion in advance. I really don't get what the issue is, but still its probably worth trying to suss out how everyone feels about the idea. How you do that without spoiling the surprise, I don't know.

[@helplmchoking]

​@@BvzSA I think that comes down to the player a lot. Like you can't be foreshadowing it or everyone will figure it out super early (yes, I'm one of those people who states these things 5 mins into a film) but it can't be totally out of nowhere either. Imo you need them to be just a generally unreliable character from the start. Like they're clear their motivation is different to the others who may be after loot or adventure and they're just out for fun or something. Then you can have them take actions that might disadvantage the party seemingly for the hell of it. Idk, I think it's an amazing concept but it definitely relies on planning and acting

[@cartoonhippie6610]

Probably my favourite of my D&D characters is married to a major villain and has known the whole time his spouse is evil, but is actively withholding information about how evil she is both to protect the her and out of cowardice because he feels complicit in her crimes.

[@Soulindex]

The spoiler alert 9 minutes in after multiple spoilers shown already is such an underrated gag 😂

[@hun1on138]

These are always helpful. I'm writing a book right now where the main point is that the protagonist is planning to betray the "good guys" and the story is just him planning how best to betray the heroes.

[@shinyninja8107]

One of my favourite uses of the Betrayal trope is how it’s used in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. There are numerous instances of betrayal in that series, most of them good guys joining the Separatists. And while these traitors don’t really ever return (mostly because they’re either killed or imprisoned), it’s their reasons for betraying the Republic that leave an impact. My favourite example is with Barris in the Season 5 finale. She frames Ahsoka for an attack on the Jedi Temple and as a result, Ahsoka is forced to go on the run in an attempt to clear her name. And while Anakin is able to capture Barris and force a confession out of her, the damage is already done. The fact that almost everyone immediately accused her and didn’t believe her innocence causes her to leave the Jedi Order because she no longer believes in what they do. And the worst part is that Barris’s reason for doing all this was justified. She believed that the Jedi and the war were being manipulated and controlled by a Sith Lord, which it all was.

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

What makes the betrayal sting even more is the none of the Jedi Council minus Plo Koon had the balls to apologize to Ahsoka in the end.

[@felixw19]

7:19 man the Terra betrayal was so well executed and so gut wrenching. The episode totally deserved to be simply titelt "Betrayal"

[@aros0018]

It is a shame we didn't get more episodes of her just on the team though. Her appearances throughout season 2 were basically just "Meeting the team", "Joining the team", and "Betraying the team" and while it did work overall it would have been even better if she'd been given more time to feel like a full member of the Titans instead of just the newcomer.

[@BLZ231]

@@aros0018 while I agree that it would have been nice if there were more episodes with Terra on the team, I can understand why they did it the way they did. The show aired back before streaming services were common place, and thus before audiences could be counted on to watch the episodes in chronological order. Consequently, while the show did have an overarching story arc in each season, the show as a whole was fairly episodic in nature, so that way even if the audience watched the episodes out of order they wouldn’t get confused, at least most of the time. So while there was some continuity, for the most part each episode was self contained, with the only exceptions being the main story arc episodes.

[@jessefanshaw8948]

God i love the tta judas arc so much more than the ntt judas arc bc of this

[@felixw19]

@Jesse Fanshaw I wouldn't say it was better (or worse). It was just a more kid friendly version. Still very good good.

[@BLZ231]

@@felixw19 The thing is, in the animated show Terra has a lot more depth. She starts as a good kid who just has destructive powers she can't control. She just wants to be able to control her powers and stop hurting people. Slade knows this, and uses that to manipulate her into doing what he wants her to do. She was never pure evil, and while she was working for Slade, she did eventually turn on him after realizing that he was just using her, and didn't actually care about her at all. In contrast, from what I've heard the Terra from the Judas arc in the comics was just a bitch, pure evil with no redeeming qualities.

[@HardCodedGaming]

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous has an excellent betrayal plot where players can actually catch a traitor pre-reveal, and a lot of leeway is given with how to deal with them, up to and including making a triple agent out of them. And it's a great example of the discussed difference of how heroic and villainous characters can handle it.

[@mitigatedrisk4264]

One of my favorite variants of this trope is a character trying to defect to the other side, and the other side is so disgusted by their lack of honor, or so mistrustful of the character's loyalty, that they reject the would-be defect.

[@Panory]

When you mentioned betrayals from the villain team rarely being as emotional, the counter example that sprung to mind was Kingdom Hearts, when Roxas leaves Organization 13. Axel: You can't turn on the Organization! You get on their bad side, and they'll destroy you! Roxas: No one would miss me. Axel: That's not true. I would.

[@raulperez375]

"Oh, so you really DO remember me this time. *I'M SO FLATTERED!"* I had no idea what was happening, but I could sure tell their relationship was spicy

[@keizee107]

Man that betrayal was certainly spicy. And Axel has his own thing with Saix too.

[@KigaiOkasu]

For some reason, my mind kept going back to Arashi’s betrayal in the X anime. For context, Sorata and Arashi were both fighting for the good guys and very early on, Sorata says that he received a prophecy that he would die protecting the woman he loves. In fact, he practically boasts about it like it’s the best way to go out. This causes problems for Arashi once they start reciprocating romantic feelings for each other, so she defects to the bad guys so that Sorata will no longer have a reason to protect, and subsequently die for, her.

[@atlantefou566]

My god those characters... I was actually put out at first by Sorata at first, but I really learned to like him thourough the serie.

[@borikidor]

I love this trope. My favorite portrayal is the one from Attack on Titan. *Spoilers* Mainly the Colossal and Armored Titan. The scene of the reveal itself is amazing , Rainer just casually drops it, but the developement of all the characters surrounding it is even better. For example the behavior of Rainer so not really an act. His psyche was messed up to the point where he really belived to be a soldier of the walls. That's why he is shown allot in the first season. Where as Bertholdt isn't like that. He is super distant and has little screen time because he isn't feeling well in this state. He is almost a tagalong and this would look obvious. Annie is also a traitor but her personality is super authentic because it's real, making this one the reasons why that betrayal was easy to see coming. Almost everything works out in their favor. Once Rainer and Bertholdt reveal themselves, they are plagued with huge amounts of guilt. And Rainer is especially torn because of his personality split and because he is the main one responsible in this situation. He also tries to justify his actions despite the fact they have been completly selfish. This conflict almost drives him to suicide afterwards. Eren hates nobody more than Rainer after this. And in some way he later on becomes a far worse version of al 3 of them. Betraying his friends for his own selfish idea of the greater good, which too is just a facade for his crushed childhood dreams. Other Characters also get their developemnets from these betrayals like Connie who grows from a comic relief to someone who almost kills an inocent kid to savor what he has. And then he has to betray his allies in the same way Rainer did to "save the world" and it crushes him. Another one i like allot is the one from Ninjago season 8 with the quiet one Harumi pretended to be in love with Lloyd even though, she despises him more than anyone. And the sad thing is that it was in every belivable way so that you could think that their chemistry was actually real. So playing the princess to hurt Lloyd even more afterwards was part of the agenda. The audience actually buys into their relationship. Once Lloyd finds out about it in a very great scene, where he concludes it but is in denial, Harumi lifts her facade slowly still trying to pull on what she has.but by then the perspective of the audience was changed on the entire evil faction now that they now Harumis motivation and ideals. She is evil and mad but still the most human and most scary villain because she shows that she can manipulate Lloyd with ease. But what it does with Lloyd is especially great because he is hard- broken and now has huge trust issues. just a personal favorite of mine

[@benapeh854]

Reiner, Yarundana, Ima Kokode

[@addicted2drawing747]

I was waiting for someone to bring up Attack on Titan.

[@axios4702]

I just so happened to play Persona 5 Royal recently and let me tell you, that game has the best traitor character I've seen in a long time. Without spoiling anything I'll just say that it is handled very skillfully. You can see it coming if you pay attention, and if you see it coming then you become distrustfull of the character for a LOOOONG part of the game, you basically play the part of L in Death Note, knowing full well they are the traitor and waiting for them to slip up so everyone else will realise it. Which makes the character much more likeable AFTER the reveal, when you see them as they are without the hypocrisy and fake smiles. Not only that, the relationship you build with said character in the true ending route is the only real thing in their charade, making the betrayal and that character's fate much more tragic in that "if only we had met sooner" sort of way. A traitor I liked more after they betrayed me and felt pity for in the end is something I hadnt experienced before. And that's just the more prominent traitor of the game, there is also a twist final antagonist who is just incredibly well done.

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

Red: Talks about "Betrayal"; Doesn't mention Metal Gear Solid once _They played us like a damm fiddle!_