Trope Talk: Fallen Heroes

Well! After that trope talk on redeemed villains went up, I got bombarded with requests to do this little number next, so here we are!
Despite being something of a dark reflection of the redeemed villains trope, the fallen hero is significantly simpler and less varied than its counterpart. But despite its simplicity, there's a lot of interesting effects it can have on a story! Mostly, it subverts the notions of unassailable heroism and forces your audience to confront a more realistic framework of morality than a simple black-and-white good-people-bad-people dichotomy. Heroes aren't supposed to be able to fall, so what do we do when one DOES?
Contains late-arrival spoilers for Berserk, Avatar and Avatar: Legend of Korra, and technically also Death Note, The Dark Knight, and the Bible.
PATREON: www.patreon.com/user?u=4664797
MERCH LINKS:
Shirts - overlysarcasti...
All the other stuff - www.cafepress.c...
Find us on Twitter @OSPKZbin!

[@pinkajou656]

Villain: “You know what’s fun? Murder” Morally Conflicted Hero: “Intriguing, tell me more”

[@robbieaulia6462]

Villain: "Well you see, if you murder people, you'll get red paint which you can sell for money and money is even more fun."

[@jcperry9588]

@@robbieaulia6462 villain:(puts on business suit and pitches his idea for a paint company while making a white board appear out of nowhere)

[@arminc4658]

This is literally Gilgamesh and Kirei Kotomine from Fate/Zero

[@Phantom-qr1ug]

@@jcperry9588 Morally Conflicted Hero: "Hmm... I See... yeah that makes sense..." *Taking notes*

[@manic2758]

@@jcperry9588 let me guess the whiteboard markers are red

[@safurahh.8093]

“Consider: Friendship” “I’ve tried it.”

[@keelanbarron928]

Sounds like something from mlp.

[@thecharmingone3931]

To me it sounds like something pre-reformed Sasuke would say. Like a casual conversation between him and Naruto. Naruto: Be my friend again! Sasuke: NEVER!

[@PetrKitty9897]

Reformed Bad Guy be like: oh s*** how come I never thought of that!!!

[@speedbae7665]

It be like that sometimes

[@nadiamozerhusain4259]

What I really love is the non-fallen-hero villain looking at the hero like "WOAH THIS IS AMAZING" with those anime eyes

[@HypercaffinatedBees]

the characters you draw have hair too fabulous for this world.

[@chronologizer422]

Red herself is fabulous as a cartoon

[@chocochipzzz4434]

Indeed

[@damiwayne8289]

She basically has hair like this in real life

[@flameconvoy7424]

Dami Wayne is it possible to learn this power?

[@chs9999]

It's shen

[@ryanstewart5727]

I loved Zuko's reaction to seeing Katara bloodbend for the first time because he was pretty visibly terrified. Not just because of the inherent creepiness of bloodbending, but because just three or four episodes earlier Katara had basically threatened his life and had remained overtly hostile towards him during the intervening time.

[@purpleshutin]

Zuko: oh shit I was spared her full power. Remind me never to piss her off

[@marcushughes4697]

Zuko: Holy sh*t I’m glad that I’m on her side now Jesus Christ

[@magicmoonflower9150]

"The difference between a Badass and a Villain is that a Badass walks the line between good and evil, but knows where he stands. A Villain, on the other hand, is so used to crossing that line, he can no longer see it." Aqualad, Young Justice Abridged

[@birdiemcchicken1471]

That line is way too good to be from an abridged series...

[@BerserkerLewis]

@Titano Man XIII Fate Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works Abridged... that one is basically just a professionally done rewrite of the actual show lol.

[@BerserkerLewis]

@Titano Man XIII Please do, the abridged series randomly popped up in my feed before I'd even watched the show, and I loved it so much that I went and watched the actual show lol. Which I personally think is pretty much the highest achievement a parody or copy works can reach... being exceptional enough on it's own that it causes people to seek out its origin works. Well, enough fangirling for me today lol.

[@khylerbane4523]

nice to see you are a person of culture as well(I refuse to assume gender or race)

[@shadowclaw7210]

Magic Moonflower what episode can remind me please.

[@taylor_green_9]

"Spontaneously regrowing a moral compass can kinda sting". Understatement of the millennium

[@cameronjordan1516]

Seriously, like imagine going from a killer, to someone who doesn't kill.....

[@demonduck1220]

Ever read shadow of the conqueror?

[@taylor_green_9]

@@demonduck1220 No, but I follow Shad's channel and I've seen a review. From pure evil to attempting a redemption arc? Doesn't work for me 🤷🏼

[@easternhills1329]

Loki went from destroying NYC in Avengers to "Are they going to leave them to die!" in a few epsodes. It's almost as if the writers think we're morons.

[@mercury2157]

@@cameronjordan1516 Locus from Red vs Blue

[@MarkChimes]

Haha that video description. "Technicay Contains spoilers for The Bible" (video proceeds to only reference the first part of Genesis).

[@festethephule7553]

@Whitnerin 1 Thank you for specifying.

[@mikedanielespeja6128]

THIS IS WHUBPEOPLE SHOULD READ THE LIGHT NOVELS!! FRAGGIN ANIME ONLYS

[@randeknight]

@Whitnerin 1 It's a really cool line to deal with doorknockers "Actually, no, I can't speak to you about the Bible since I haven't finished reading it yet and I don't want you to spoil the ending."

[@TheJoker-qo4fg]

Mark Chimes Spoiler: Jesus dies but than is resurrected

[@TryingIGuess]

​@Jordan Joestar The mention of "Lilith" in the Bible may have been a translation error. The story itself is a non-canonical legend that was popularized in the 1200s , and worked its way into Catholicism. At no point was it removed from the Bible, because it was never part of it.

[@NymbusCumulo928]

Literally every episode of Death Note: Light Yagami: Oh no, I feel a fart coming on . . . but L is right over there. He will certainly hear and smell my fart, but the delivery is key. If I just let it rip carelessly, it will be suspicious because I'm violating social graces. If I piece it out as tiny farts, then I'll appear nervous and constipated . . . which is even more suspicious. I have no choice, I have to roll the dice and hope for a silent fart that everyone will ignore . . . here it goes! *farts* L: Damn, Light looks awfully strange right now . . . and theres a nasty odor suddenly in the room. Hmmmmmm I can't say for certain, but I know there's a 7% chance this fart . . . belongs to Kira. *Episode ends*

[@theperson3739]

this comment is criminally underrated

[@marsruby1112]

I wish I could unread this comment

[@NymbusCumulo928]

@@marsruby1112 I wish I could unwatch Death Note

[@marsruby1112]

@@NymbusCumulo928 that's fair

[@enigmatic3194]

You forgot to have L tell that to Light's dad and have him go "No He'S nOt!"

[@onedapperlucario9138]

Hero: Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!

[@Dimension_Keeper]

OneDapperLucario me: I won't help you, you can get up by yourself.

[@SilentTremors]

OneDapperLucario Announcer: Buy LifeAlert today!

[@psychronia]

I've fallen before, but I got back up.

[@pandoraarts7748]

OneDapperLucario Best. Joke. EVER 😂😂😂

[@jackglover3108]

OneDapperLucario barnicle boi!

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

This is hitting a bit too close to home...

[@gatekeepingwarlock9604]

Hello there!

[@markjacobs3898]

Hello there

[@myOToole]

So uncivilized

[@landkon2254]

Hello there

[@australiumbacon5598]

Obi-Wan Kenobi GENERAL KENOBI!

[@Amalgam-01]

Person: your the hero of your own story Me: then tell me why I'm giving people side quests

[@willieoelkers5568]

You could be the MC in one of those commander/ruler/manager-type games (I'm sure there's a more concise term but it's eluding me). Thus your job is basically to send others out to quest on your behalf.

[@snekkoheckko4466]

i dignose you with NPC

[@sticks4632]

Im that npc that people dont see much but when they do they are happy.

[@chocomuffin7433]

I’m that one NPC who overcharges you for like an apple

[@mahogania5536]

You have an army of gophers

[@VeryProfessionalGamer]

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions."

[@besquareorbethere2680]

2 reel 4 me m8

[@ihopeicanchangethisnamelat7108]

Who’s that quote from?

[@VeryProfessionalGamer]

@@ihopeicanchangethisnamelat7108 Apparently an author called Stephen Covey, though ive heard it in a different KZbin Video before.

[@VeryProfessionalGamer]

@William Snyder same thing, isnt it? His actions were evil (and in some cases he knew), though he deemed them necessary for a good that outweighed the evil. Therefore he was good, not evil, in his mind. To everyone else though...

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@William Snyder The lesser of two evils is still inherently evil. This isn't a complex topic... the only time you've done a good thing is when both the actions you've taken and the reasons you've taken them are good. If you do a good thing for bad reasons, you're still an asshole. If you do bad things for a good reason, that still means you did bad things. You being too stupid to reason properly doesn't magically change the morality of your decisions. You doing good doesn't change the fact that you intended to be an asshat, and likewise you being an asshat doesn't change just because you meant to do the right thing. I hate it when people try to pretend like this is a moral quandary. There is an objectively correct answer that most mentally retarded humans could reach relatively easily.

[@DragonQueen-cv5mw]

A story I would love to see is this: A prophecy says that two people will oppose each other, that they are born enemies. They start out friends, but then they have a falling out and one of them turns to villainy, you know, pretty standard stuff. But then the villain one decides that he is tired of being evil, and wants to be friends with the good one again, and so he turns good, trying to subvert destiny. But then the good one falls from grace, either from serious mistrust that his enemy has turned good, and so he resorts to villainous actions in order to try to ''prove" that the formerly evil one is still evil, or for some other reason. So then the reformed villain has to fight the fallen hero, just like the prophecy said.

[@estellesmith4118]

I AGREE WRITE A FRICKING BOOK

[@33Bibi33]

Oh my god that is an amazing idea!

[@hussamtastic7621]

This is amazing lmao

[@enigmatic3194]

Holy sh- wow...

[@GabrielRibeiro-nm5uv]

Cobra kai but with prophecy

[@slavicandroid1999]

6:06 - Jason Todd saying "oh, my goodness gracious! ive been bamboozled!" might be the funniest Jason Todd line of all time

[@pinkajou656]

heckin bamboozled

[@FreshZCORD]

Bro is flabbergasted

[@69_pigeons_in_a_trenchcoat]

Blud is exasperated

[@AnnMari871]

Huh, I have the sudden urge to write a story where the fallen hero time travels to the past, and all the heroes think they’re going to corrupt their past self, but it turns out they just time travelled to stop themself from falling. I have no idea why I suddenly felt the need to write this, though.

[@jh.4761]

Do you have an account on Wattpad or something where you maybe upload it? Because seriously, that sounds really interesting!

[@AnnMari871]

Josephine H. No, unfortunately... (but thank you so much for the reply!) And looking at how the story is turning out, I think it might take a while longer that expected.

[@nehb1332]

Could you please post a link to your story when it's done?

[@vibevibevibemcommentedtoda5717]

SEND THE LINK, BABE.

[@aiiiia9971]

I literally had the same idea once xD except he came back to kill his former self before he could do anything bad (but eventually changed his mind and was able to prevent it some other way) I might not write it though, and if I do it would probably be between friends only maybe as an rp. Good luck on yours! And please tell us when done, if you wish.

[@Hexagonaldonut]

"Is it evil to hurt a dog, even though a dog isn't a person? I'd say 'yes', and also 'how dare you?!'" Underrated line. Always gets a laugh out of me.

[@trucetruce335]

“Tragedy explains actions, it does not defend them.” This quote changed my freaking life. Actions are ALWAYS a choice. No one’s saying it’s going to be easy to stand strong enough to avoid them (and in especially tragic cases take the consequence of avoiding them) but it it ALWAYS better to grow strong than to cash in on that pity victim check that will only last so long. It’s like being stuck in a hole with sides of rock and a ground of sands with a shovel. Digging at the sides to climb out seems hard and stupid but you can’t dig down through the earth to get out.

[@JohnSmith-ox3gy]

Truce Truce You can rationalize your actions after you have done them but that doesn't make them or you rational.

[@trucetruce335]

Sydnym R eyyy

[@gibboustime]

Truce Truce But it is ALWAYS* It's like being stuck in a hole*

[@treycriner8937]

@@trucetruce335 is this a personal quote or from book/character/teacher/creator of some kind? I looked it up to find out more about the context and speaker but found nothing but your comment. Thanks for answering if you do.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@Ninja8Tyu i see you too have watched code geass

[@MrJostur]

"BUT MY TROUBLED *PAST*" Made me giggle.

[@PutoMedicoBrujo]

It's time for E X P O S I T I O N™

[@sayvionwashington1939]

"I guess you want to hear my tragic backstory now, yes?" "No, I really don't car-" "Looooong ago, when I was a wee lass..." *Fallen Hero's voice slowly fades as a ear piercing ring slowly gets louder*

[@HilariouslyScary]

Damn, Avatar just did everything, didn't it?

[@Reilly-Maresca]

Did you just say Avatar is equivalent to Star Wars?

[@nathanjenkins5785]

Bob Bobson its true.

[@jambondepays1969]

Bob Bobson it isn't equivalent to Star Wars. It's much better. Inb4 hate. I don't dislike Star Wars. It's a good story. But it's not the masterpiece people jazz it up to be

[@Reilly-Maresca]

+Jambon De Pays I will admit the sum total of my Avatar experience is that shitty live action movie when I was like 8. I highly doubt however it beats Star Wars. That said, one series being better than another is highly subjective so I don't expect you to agree.

[@ienzio7795]

Bob Bobson "I haven't actually seen the show everyone says is almost perfect but I'm sure it's not that good". That sounds kind of weird right? It's not just me?

[@archertreloar4806]

After redeemed villains and fallen heroes, there's one more left... A hero who falls to villainy then regrets it and turns back to being a hero Wait then there's two... A villain trying heroism but then relapsing to crime...?

[@terner1234]

doofenshmirtz

[@kanseidorifto2430]

Shrek

[@maevixie7041]

For the first one, Vakama

[@mythicalgirl2005]

A fallen hero who redeems themselves by performing a heroic act in their final moments then dies. Anyone wanna play “guess the character I’m thinking of”?

[@lukeskywalker8223]

For the second, Dracula in the Castlevania show.

[@highdefinitionapollo2189]

This made me think: Has there ever been a fictional work that does a double turn? As in at the beginning of the story, one character is a sweet and honorable hero, while another character is a cruel, despicable villain. But by the end of the story, the two had completely switched characters to the point of the original villain protecting the innocent from the original hero?

[@Fusselleinchen]

High Definition Apollo This sounds really interesting and I'm tempted to write something like that, buuut I actually think there is a story like that. But I can't remember what it was....

[@devilsummoner7814]

ah the double switch, lets see the one example i can remember has to do with wrestling. if memory serves it was stone cold vs Bret Hart. One turned Face while the other turned Heel.

[@highdefinitionapollo2189]

Devil Summoner That's the one.

[@gsnower2122]

Kiseiju is one.

[@profmalicious]

Those kinds of stories are usually a small part of a trope called the Hourglass Plot, so called because their roles reverse over time like sand shifting from the top glass bubble to the bottom.

[@heyyou2078]

Hey, really quick question. Could you do the “rage moment” trope? I know it seems really simple on the surface but I think people as intelligent as you guys could really make it interesting. Thanks so much!

[@arandomqueerfanpeep7655]

Oh I would *love* that for the story I'm working on

[@wingedbluj1674]

Like Luke going berserk on Vader in episode VI

[@thecharmingone3931]

Or the Hulk, whose entire character revolves around this.

[@mediatorraptor3349]

The rage moment trope is probably one of my favorite tropes. I would love that if made a video of it.

[@catbatrat1760]

"Rage moment trope"? Is that the same thing as what TV Tropes calls "Moment of Weakness"? Like, for example, in the Sanders Sides episode "Learning New Things About Ourselves", Roman makes fun of Logan's habit of saying the word "figuratively" every time he says something, well, figuratively. Roman even flat-out calls it "stupid". This makes the normally calm, composed, stoic Logan so angry that he crumples up the flashcard he was holding, shrieks in rage, and throws the paper ball at Roman's eye. And then immediately regrets it. Is that the type of thing you're talking about?

[@Phoenix-yk7ne]

This video reminded me a bunch of Percy Jackson and Luke's arch. The way Luke was written was very good. He's so convincing, there were a few times when even I was like "holy cow, you've got me there" And the fact that Annabeth was able to redeem him in the end despite everything he did is kinda feelsy.

[@arandomqueerfanpeep7655]

Honestly, I think Luke had a point, he was just way too murdery about it

[@etherealstrawberry9873]

Yeah... especially the dynamic between him, Thalia and Annabeth was one of the sweetest things ever.

[@salomekekelia1508]

In the end it was the gods fault

[@Kirbydudette333]

@@salomekekelia1508 I completely agree with you there not only were they at fault for the whole mess which led up to Luke turning evil when Percy Jackson came and fixed their mess and then turned down godhood( still don't get why he did that he could have had Annabeth Ascend as well the Greek gods did that for their girlfriends all the time) Zeus went into an existential crisis and almost caused the end of everything!

[@Phantasmagora]

The gods have no one to blame but their own egos, they have made these kids and expect them to follow blindly. But Percy and Luke are always in some way saying no to both their fathers, Percy says no because he does what he wants sometimes even though Poseidon would like an alive son and Luke just bluntly said no and went on a rampage, In conclusion. Nico wins, hands down.

[@LostBoyMedias]

fun fact: tumblr raves over having what is called a bastardization arc instead of redemtion arc, which is basically just an arc of the hero falling, which I am totally in love with

[@yaruyaru]

Honestly, I do prefer bastardization arcs over redemption arcs. It is not seen so much, also being (in my opinion) villains much more interesting over heroes

[@Lemonboba1]

Your pfp used to be my pfp on discord :D

[@cadenvanvalkenburg6718]

A bastardization arc, if written well, can be spectacular. A redemption arc can also be but the bastardization arc is harder to pull off

[@xaptor8685]

I think it’s called a negative character arc. But both have the same meaning, so yeah.

[@phastinemoon]

Eh - I’m tired with fallen hero arcs. Give me a bastardization arc where the good guy stays a good guy, but just becomes a grade-A asshole.

[@MistahJsArcade]

"Since spontaneously growing a moral compass can kinda sting" Funniest line I have heard in a long time XD

[@justbny9278]

Mistah J readed as she said it

[@MTdaBlacking]

I think "Consider: Friendship" is better.

[@meandmybobbygee1812]

I prefer 'Hetero Death Partners'

[@maddie9602]

"Your fallen hero can easily turn into a self-sacrificing death-seeker if they feel that is what they deserve. *pauses for a moment* This just got a little dark." Little quips like that are the reason I love Red so much.

[@luckyfox2997]

aegideus >:) I've been making a character like that but he's cursed to be unable to die a normal death.

[@teeveeee]

I have a few story's with that outcome *evil grin >:3*

[@robertlionel2675]

*cough cough* *itachi* *cough cough*

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Magnus the Red, Primarch of the 15th Legion Astartes as well as (questionably) Konrad Curze, Primarch of the 8th Legion both fall into this category.

[@mahirchowdhury4448]

Just like aot

[@noahberlitz5553]

This video helped me realize just why Daenerys in game of thrones' face-heel turn was so terrible. The writers were trying to frame it as a type 1, but ended up just doing a poorly executed type 2 with the extreme version even. Except that the truly terrible circumstances forcing her to fall came at the cost of every single other character acting completely illogically, so in a way, D&D made Dany have no real hand in her fall to the dark side. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[@baronvonjerch]

Fair enough, though we gotta remember that Daenerys was on a hero/villain knife's edge throughout the entire show. We know that Targaryens are naturally prone to madness and Varys, one of the best judges of character in the show, notes that her metaphorical madness coin hasn't landed yet. The reason for that was the fact that she had a support network around her, most prominently Jorah and Missandei. After those two died, she began to slide into villain territory with the only thing keeping her together being revenge. But when she was denied that revenge, King's Landing surrendering with pretty much no fight, the last thing holding her together disappeared and she snapped. Daenerys was always an emotionally volatile person so it makes perfect sense for her to slam into either end of the hero/villain spectrum at Mach 4 at any time.

[@blahthebiste7924]

@@baronvonjerch Even so, every single action of hers that could be considered "morally gray" or "villainous" or "cruel" up until that point was at least somewhat rational. We could understand *why* she did it, every time. For the season 8 finale, the reason was "idk she cray cray forreal now"

[@sodiumb425]

I prefer not to call Dave & Dan D&D, because D&D's cool, instead I call them: Tweedle Dave and Tweedle Dan. I can't remember where I got that from, but I love it.

[@Amy_the_Lizard]

...What does Dungeons and Dragons have to do with this..? O_o

[@noahberlitz5553]

To clarify, my original comment was strictly critiquing the execution of Dany’s fall to the dark side in the show. There are of course other factors at play here that made it fundamentally bad to begin with, mainly that “mad queen Dany” is an inherently misogynistic story idea and a complete bad faith reading of her character in both the books and the show, but even if it was actually “foreshadowed” (which it isn’t) the execution of the fallen hero story line was bad on its own.

[@juwanbantug5465]

I feel like the best way to describe a fallen/tragic hero is this. "This character could have been a hero/heroine, but a lot of bad shit got in the way of it."

[@affogatocookie5.046]

DRACULA CASTLEVANIA

[@georgepatton93]

from a certain quote of one of my favorite movies, drawing the line between fallen heroes and heroes who normally walk the grey line, "There is a difference between you and me. We both look into the abyss. But when it looks back at us, you blink."

[@gabriel300010]

and that movie is?

[@chiefchief2871]

@Inquisitor Shadowlord I knew it was Batman something

[@ManiaMac1613]

Justice League Crisis On Two Earths was a damn good movie, I'm a sucker for evil doppelgangers.

[@vincentsinclair7749]

Me: (Is writing a book) “I don’t know how to write this bit...” (Immediately opens KZbin and goes to this channel for help)

[@dreamingblue3939]

I do the same haha :)

[@Pukeprincess]

Dragon Girl Blue if you feel you did something wrong go to “Terrible writing advice

[@mediatorraptor3349]

I do the same to get ideas.

[@nikkospelledlikethat8140]

I’ve gotten so many story ideas based on different trope talks it’s absurd.

[@im_tired1439]

Nikko Spelled Like That, I relate to this so much haha!

[@interhistoria5632]

"Should I go left, where nothing is right? Or right, where nothing is left?" - Itachi Uchiha (Naruto)

[@syabilaazri7834]

I will no suprise if Malaysia version of Itachi Uchiha or Sasuke Uchiha will say something like that in probely season 2 (guess who those two character...)

[@Grt_Sge]

I love Itachi and I love what he represents. After he dies and we know about his story it puts so many things into question. What does Sasuke do now? What were the 3rd Hokage’s inner thoughts in the build up to the massacre? What will happen to Danzo? It puts the entire Hidden Leaf Village into question. All of these questions because an edge lord wanted to kill his brother.

[@sticks4632]

Weeb

[@sadnessofwildgoats]

r/Im14AndThisIsDeep

[@terner1234]

how does this work in a language other than english

[@monorayjak4377]

Personally speaking, one of my favorite interpretations of the 'future-version of the hero is evil' is from the game Infamous. During the game you're met with this guy who tortures the main character and goes so far as to force him to choose between saving multiple lives or just the one he loves, but that moment is also the first time we notice that something isn't right, because no matter who you save, the girlfriend falls to her death. which implies the villain knew which choice the hero would make. And at the end of the game we learn that the big bad of the entire game was a future version of the main character who tried to save the world from a 'Beast' of immense power and failed, losing his friends and family along the way. After that moment he finally realizes that no matter what he does now, the world is f-ed, so instead he goes back in time, sets up the events that gave him powers a few years earlier, and forces his past self to grow both morally and physically, even going so far as to kill the woman who would become their wife because he knew that no matter how much he changed himself, he would still put her first instead of the world. Basically, the future-evil version gave up morality and tried to create a version of himself that could be and do better; which I really enjoyed.

[@Smeghead76]

Why does this video cause me to think of Crowley from _Good Omens_ ? "Crowley: an angel who didn't so much Fall as saunter vaguely downwards"

[@AGrumpyPanda]

This comment is two years old but I want you to know, reading it now just inspired a new villain for my Pathfinder campaign. A monster fully aware that they have become evil, and while the rest of their world was falling around them they decided to go down on their own terms.

[@s.g.7572]

God I love Neil Gaiman

[@tntguardian6455]

"You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain" - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight. It just had to be said.

[@thecharmingone3931]

I don't think a quote like that will ever get old (especially in context like this).

[@thecharmingone3931]

Can Zeus really qualify as an Fallen Hero? I always thought he was a terrible person, just placed circumstances that kinda forced him to be heroic (father ate his siblings, escaped getting eaten by him, got back his siblings and then rebelled against his father).

[@tntguardian6455]

@@thecharmingone3931 I guess he technically can. Never thought of it like that before

[@thecharmingone3931]

I mean, he really does qualify as a hero, just by the warped standards of Ancient Greece (and they would hail _Kratos_ of all people as a paragon of virtue).

[@Gunther930]

Does that mean elderly people are evil? That's the part of that quote that's always bugged me.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Prequel Era Anakin Skywalker? I know that guy!

[@vaerthelmn5287]

I hear he was like a brother to you

[@thenew4559]

The little boy who played Anakin in episode 1 went to my high school (before I was ever there). I hear he had some issues as an adult, though.

[@yolandita26]

*Snickers*

[@RandomPerson-xz6nj]

General Kenobi. You are a bold one.

[@ki-adi-mundi6370]

I know the guy as well.

[@meggamatty]

Is it evil to hurt a dog Araki: *sweats profusely*

[@grayfox6930]

That wasn't a jojoke... Its just wrong...

[@ratedr7845]

@@grayfox6930 no, it's a joke

[@braxtonrasmussen2110]

In some cultures it's completely ok to eat a dog, it's not intrinsically wrong to do it

[@weebalo_]

They could've included funny valentine, who I believe is the hero of Steel Ball Run.

[@guywhochangeshisprofilealo7163]

It’s evil if you do it for no reason, if the dog is rabid than it’s ok to hurt it but if you hurt that innocent puppy for no reason you deserve to die

[@danielcompton9318]

One of my favourite trope wombo-combos? Reformed villain who is actually good, then they come across a fallen hero and the original hero follows them, leaving the reformed villain as the hero who has to try and hold everything together, and repaying the good done to them by bringing the original hero back to the side of good, simultaneously proving the reformed villain’s dedication to good and giving out that good hopeful “the best way to help yourself today is to help someone else yesterday” message.

[@cthulhufhtagn2483]

I haven't seen Avatar, nor do I know much about it. But it makes me really happy that bloodbending is a thing. I mean, you generally think of water as being calm and healing, but water is actually an immensely powerful force, and one that exists inside most things on earth. This means that bloodbending is a very realistic power in-universe, and a great example of good worldbuilding. Of course, bloodbending is just one element (see what I did there?) of this. Other examples could include killing someone by draining all nutrients from their body via earthbending, or (slightly less dark) creating a hovercraft via airbending.

[@voidjockey82]

The thing I'm wondering about is how does this actually work? If you literally would simply push the liquid components of the blood inside the veins and arteries around then that would mean the people would move out of sheer pain. Secondly however wouldn't that result in a drasticly high chance for inner bleeding, especially inside of the brain? Furthermore could you simply move the blold in the reverse direction of the heart's pumping, thereby stopping the flow?

[@voidjockey82]

@Emma Brennan Dear Lord, it's Elfenlied all over again.

[@sadnessofwildgoats]

Avatar is on Netflix now just in case you dont know yet

[@willmangrum3686]

You should read Codex Alera. It plays around very interestingly with elemental powers.

[@guywhochangeshisprofilealo7163]

You can heal someone with water bending so they do play along with water being calm and healing

[@Turtlewax63]

One type of fallen hero that I'm not sure quite how to codify is one that has followed their morals to the flipside of where those morals should be, I'm going to use Arthas from Warcraft 3 as an example. Arthas is a paladin defending his home from orcs and the undead. And he follows paragon like morals straight into doing the wrong thing. Village full of innocent people cursed to become undead soon? Kill them all before they turn. Orders received to retreat away and not attack the enemy? Burn your boats to strand your men there to die, blame it on the villains to set your men against them, and make sure to kill anyone who knows differently before they can talk. Don't have the power to take on the villain? Sell your soul to a cursed sword for the power you need. By the end of the story, he has so completely pursued the relatively righteous goal of protecting people and destroying evil at any cost that he sees anyone who balks at the cost as just another villain, and so he's become more of a threat to his people than the original enemy ever was. He rode the paragon thought train all the way until it turned around and he became almost total evil.

[@nerdsforever4852]

and It was Tyrion Forgering another Paragon who stopped being one for awhile that took him down

[@shocknix]

How do you save everyone from the liars of the Burning Legion and the Old Gods? Kill all the living, raise them as undead, and kick all the demons of the planet with your giant undead army..

[@lisazoria2709]

Turtlewax63 Sounds like the Knight Templar trope. They make for pretty interesting (if not oblivious), fallen heroes.

[@Drakespawn85]

+Red Floyd His fall didn't stop there, though, this was only the first, kinda-sorta-justified step. It's been a really long time since I last played WC3, but as I recall Arthas developed a serious hate-on towards Mal'Ganis, the demon responsible (seemingly) for the undead plague, chased him to a hostile, freezing continent, got wind of an awesome legendary sword hidden somewhere around there from a dwarven explorer, destroyed his own ships to keep his men from leaving him and going home when supplies ran out, then blamed that on mercenaries he had *hired* to sink the ships, getting them killed by his angry followers, killed the dwarven explorer (his friend by now) to get into the tomb where the sword was kept and after actually obtaining the sword and killing his Nemesis Mal'Ganis, promptly returned home and despite being celebrated a hero wasted no time gleefully killing his own father, the king. Think of him as basically WarCraft's Anakin: A collosal, self-entitled douche with anger management issues that makes you wonder why he's kept around with all the arrogance and questionable shit he pulls and when he "falls", it's not so much a slippery slope but rather slipping on a banana peel and doing a faceplant on the sidewalk. Only this time he's "only" royalty, instead of being the prophesized saviour. Though, to be fair, Arthas was manipulated by Mal'Ganis and his master all the way. And when he picked up the (cursed) sword, that sealed his fate and turned him from "I kill my allies, my friends and my people to protect my kingdom!" to "My dead former allies, friends and people make great zombies!"

[@mandalorethebosss]

It was Nerzhul who manipulated Arthas into falling because of using Malganis as front to draw arthas to him

[@viniciusvyller9458]

"A good action does not wash a bad action and a bad action does not wash a good action." Stannis, the Mannis

[@bobsonobs2253]

Burning your deformed child to death at the stake is ok if a witch tells you it will help you win an upcoming battle

[@evergreenfox6786]

*Red mentions deathnote* Me: Oh yeah, I gotta watch that *Clip from deathnote* Me: FERB, I KNOW WHAT WE'RE GONNA DO TODAY (after the video)

[@tsotry1842]

ME

[@adamwise1111]

Me, but with Avatar

[@pantherace1000]

as a trope the Fallen Hero is probably the most realistic of all the villain tropes. though it comes really close to uncomfortable reality.

[@ellamunson-jackson3149]

I agree.

[@artofthepossible7329]

The Slick Android So if you do intend to do bad then the path shall be revealed to heaven? Still there are enough plenty of bad things in both the real world and fiction that were classified as good upon their creation. Holocaust and the Buster Call are good examples of this.

[@EdgarCastillo-c6j]

That moment you realise that Jason's fate was left in the audience's hands to wether he gets save or not and it was a 49-51 vote that he dies, so in a way the audiencia created Jason's Red Hood.

[@zachary8586]

"Is it evil to hurt a dog even though a dog isn't a person? I'd say 'Yes' and also 'How Dare you!?" Red that line made my whole day

[@quill9918]

Jason Todd is my fave fallen/redeemed hero. He falls and eventually returns to heroism, but his regained heroism is a mostly gradual thing and what he gets is fundamentally different than his original heroism, changed because of his fall and the events that led there.

[@zepanda4843]

My favorite is Ashoka from Star Wars. I'm not a big fan of Star Wars but her character is just amazing to me.

[@VicEntity]

@@zepanda4843 wait, when does she become evil?

[@digifreak90]

Spoilers for Avatar Volume 3 below: 8:45 Yeah I remember freaking out when Katara started Blood Bending unprovoked in the episode where Zuko helped her track down her mother's killer.

[@adambebb99]

Same. That was one of my favorite episodes, the way they communicated Katara's feelings, how her pain and loss were turning to anger and making a good person bad just like Hama, through her actions was amazing.

[@aidenfurry471]

"and then they remember child endangerment is a thing" *THE FANS VOTED FOR HIS DEATH* (just emphasizing the phrase not yelling)

[@m.h.7364]

"Most comic book resurrections are played so casually that everyone tends to forget about them, but nobody forgets Jason Todd" is such a good way to phrase it. Other members of the batfam have died and come back but it can never have the same impact as Jason's deatb

[@garbageOwO]

**internal screaming** RED HAS BLESSED US AGAIN

[@mq5731]

*Bows* Red-sama! Your knowledge and erudite mannerism are unrivalled! Please teach us more!!!

[@adamsoska3688]

Shadow of the Elements amen

[@iexistprobably6728]

*external screaming* YEH

[@merrittanimation7721]

Praise be!

[@superloverofunderatedchara8406]

Shadow of the Elements yes

[@AshleyBreads]

“You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”

[@moonbunnystudios_]

*sees Mokuba* *tries to count how many times he was kidnapped* He needs his own category

[@Nulthazor]

Shut up Mokuba

[@Fakeplantcaretaker]

he's a damsel. he's always in distress.

[@MadameTamma]

I blame Kaiba. He loves his brother but my god he's an irresponsible brother. "I don't care how many enemies I make in my goal to be the best, and I don't care how powerful or underhanded they are in their methods, now if you'll excuse me I'm off to go see my 11 year old brother. He's the only one I would ever admit out loud to caring about, and he's probably tired from running around the city all day completely unsupervised and unprotected."

[@shadowlightnign]

I think my favorite "Fallen Hero" character was from Live a Live. (SPOILERS FOR LIKE A DECADE OR SO OLD GAME) The game lets you play thru 8 different stories, each with a different main character. Each scenario spans across different time periods and settings, from the prehistoric times surrounding a tribe of cavemen, to ancient China and imperial Japan, all the way to the far future. The last and semi-secret scenario is in a medieval-fantasy setting, with the main character being Oersted. At first glance, it comes across as a generic "save the princess" kind of plot, but as you go thru the story, things get more and more complicated. Long story short, Oersted's best friend turned out to have orchestrated the whole princess kidnapping thing, and eventually framing him for the death of the king and some other characters, all because he was jealous of him always being in the limelight. So Oersted gets imprisoned, but manages to escape with the help of one of his companion's dying breath, faces his friend and eventually kills him in battle... to which the princess sees him, calls him out and expresses that he empathised with his friend, then killing HERSELF right in front of him out of despair. This is what led Oersted to snapping. Everyone hates him and thinks he's a monster, his best friend was jealous of him and hated him so much that he planned all that, and the one person he thought still believed in him, the princess, killed herself. The hatred consumed him and he turned into Odio, the Demon King. This was a huge plot twist. Each of the previous scenarios had a boss that was similarly named to Odio, implying that he was a form of reincarnation of him (yes, even managed to transcend time as it also included PREHISTORIC TIMES). However, the main characters from each scenario team up and defeat him together, while also pointing out that, despite all the hatred and shit he went thru, it doesn't justify his actions. What hammers this home is that each of the main characters went thru similarly awful events in their stories. So they eventually defeat Odio, but what stood out to me was his dying words. He doesn't say "I will come back", he explains that so long as hatred continues to exist in the world, someone else will become the Demon King. He reminds the main characters that anyone could become just like him if put it in similar circumstances. And I like that. He doesn't try and justify his actions anymore, knowing the main characters just beat him and proved him wrong, but he still reminds them that it can still probably happen to anyone, and that they should be careful.

[@RelativelyBest]

_I've been here before, I've stood where you stand_ _They called me their hero, the hero of man_

[@theabstractchicken3998]

But why should we save them, if they stand for nothing? If they deserve to survive let them stand for themselves!

[@RelativelyBest]

@@theabstractchicken3998 It's "if they deserve life." Still, worth an upvote.

[@r4dbit416]

« People die when they are killed » -shiro Emiya

[@mythicalgirl2005]

NO REALLY?

[@electronicmayonnaise5692]

Ya don't say!?

[@Aquilenne]

'People are supposed to die when sustaining mortal injuries. I'm okay with returning Excalibur's sheathe and sacrificing the ability to survive such injuries, as it simply returns me to how a human should be.' - Shirou Emiya.

[@kr1szkr0sz88]

@@Aquilenne *Proceeds to casually shrug off All the World's Evils*

[@sadnessofwildgoats]

r/Im14AndThisIsDeep

[@kxexexaxixoxg3140]

Red: Type 2 fallen heroes taken to the extreme Me: Eren Jaeger anyone?

[@awesomemantroll1088]

At least when he falls down, Levi can beat the shit outta him.

[@jasonreed7522]

The most recent episode pointed something out that explained so much to me. When Mikasa told Gabi that her obsession with Killing all her enemies reminded her of someone. Basically Eren has always been 100% on board with killing all his enemies. When it was titans this was fine, when it was in response to the invaders (marley) we were on board. But now we have seen both sides of the sea and realize that the only decent solution would be peace and understanding, but the Yeagerists have decided to rebuild the old eldian empire presumably with all the attrocities. Eren is definitely a type 1 fallen hero, he has always been too absolute about kill them all, i hate them all. The only difference between season 1 and 4 is that its now a national the size of africa and not mindless monsters he wants to exterminate. I think one of the themes for season 4 is about the cycle of war. Which is basically you killed my brother so i kill you so your son kills me and so on until one side no longer exists or moves on. I expect Gabi to learn the lessons that erin won't, and most people are going to hate her even more for it.

[@didosauce6008]

@@jasonreed7522 could not have said that better myself. Erens transition and development is one of the reasons why I love him as a character

[@JaelinBezel]

Nah. As someone who watched the first 13 episodes of Attack on Titan, I know Eren Jaeger’s a straight hero

[@justincain2702]

​@@jasonreed7522The cycle of war is such a played out theme. I was hoping AOT would do something different with it.

[@datkid318]

"Is is evil to hurt a dog even though a dog isn't a person? I'd say yes, and also how dare you." Dio: (σ_σ)

[@thunderlight3571]

Wait, what was the dog death count of Part three again. Didn't it reach double digits?

[@BeefMeisterSupreme]

except dio knew he was evil and knew hurting dogs was evil.

[@caityreads8070]

'I must do x thing by any means necessary' is a very good example of this I think

[@jacobmcneer609]

Only the Sith deal in Absolutes!

[@Faebiebot]

I'm actually toying with the idea of a fallen hero who still does his damndest to do good. My character takes the form of both type 1 and 2. His character has not changed, but had some outside force not tipped the scales he would be an unequivocally good. The reason he's not a hero in the book I'm writing because he's not the main character, and has a number of evil characteristics we know long before we get the reveal that he was a hero at all.

[@The1Dragonprincess]

Rosa Lovecraft sounds cool

[@artofthepossible7329]

That sounds like a good read.

[@kendallchaos]

Rosa Lovecraft sounds like an interesting twist on an antihero I wish you luck

[@Phantasmagora]

I actually have some fallen heroes in my story's, specifically my character Khaos. He wasn't always the best but always strived to be the good kid. But when his master(No not that master, the dude created him by making him just exist) showed him that not everything is so black and white, he started to accept who he really was. Centuries later he has a son went crazy was locked up and now lives with his son and his fam. Oh and also Khaos doesn't actually have a set gender since Khaos is the embodiment of chaos(Do you like his punny name now XD) so he can be a she and she is pregnant. Don't ask how that works this comment is already too long.

[@nuketsaritas3819]

@@Phantasmagorasomeday, i will make two in a comic book series known as "Slime": -Type 1 fallen hero:Dark Slime, evil counterpart to the titular protagonist from an alternate reality. -Type 2 fallen hero: The anti-villain Nokupeljan

[@ahzekahriman9379]

There is another interesting version where someone willingly falls for the greater good, like a zero popularity gambit. I’ve rarely seen this, but one good example was Emperor Rudolf from Fire Emblem Shadows of Valencia. He was portrayed as a grim and ruthless conquerer who turns out to (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS!) Turns out to be the Hero’s father, who willing have his son away to beat him and use the United continent to defeat a mad god, as he himself couldn’t do it, and his homeland was in shambles under the gods rule. He was fascinating as he did evil things, but in the end fell by his accord the man allowed good to triumph

[@Saltgod6940]

Celica also did the same thing in a way by offering her sould to Duma for what she thought was the greater good

[@animalia5554]

B. R. Or Zero Requiem?

[@falconiday6130]

Fire Emblem does this a few times. Arvis from Genealogy comes to mind, and his overall moral grey characterization (like most characters in FE4) also causes him to draw out his redemption, adding more layers of personal loss to an already tragic story, and, in general, giving even more weight to the character and the sacrifice

[@warmfuzzyvoid]

Reminds me of Logan from Fable 3.

[@allana0017]

another example is Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus from the pre-Disney Star Wars books

[@maiasmith3996]

Anakin Skywalker is probably one of the best and most tragic fallen heroes I know of. His story is truly heartbreaking, especially if you get into not only his relationships with Padme and Obi Wan, but his padawan Ashoka as well. The writers of the star wars prequels (and clone wars) dont get enough appreciation for how complex they made him as a character.

[@danapowers-green3172]

I still feel one of the most brilliant characters to appear in Clone Wars is Wollf Yularen. He is such a great version of the type one fallen hero. Nothing about meaningful changes between when he is helping the Jedi to try and end a war and bring peace to when he is helping the Sith blow up planets. He is a loyal, competent officer, who placed his loyalty to the military service he was a part of over the any consideration of morality of his nations leader. He reminds me of what I have read about many of the German general during WW2. They were not really Nazis in ideology, but they were loyal to the institution of the German military which led them into the position of where they justified fighting to maintain that ideology because that is what the nation leader wanted and the military was supposed to be apolitical.

[@ryanwelch1272]

Could you do a trope talk on the "liar reveal" or the brief predictable moping trope?

[@emilypowell1251]

What do you mean by brief predictable moping? Because if your talking about the moping heroes do after they "realize" they are "similar" to the villain Red already touched on that in her 'We're Not So Different You and I" video. But if you mean something else, yes please because that'd probably be very interesting!

[@ryanwelch1272]

I think a good example of what I'm trying to say would be the scene where Shrek and Fiona go separate ways in the first Shrek movie. It was a simple misunderstanding and now they're moping and it's super sad, but the audience foll on knows they're going to get together. In a way, it's mourning when it's way too short and way too predictable.

[@CrazyLikeUhFox]

Or that scene in Moana where Maui's hook gets damaged and he leaves Moana to throw a short hissy fit.

[@Nortarachanges]

CrazyLikeUhFox That one is a good example of a bad example. There is so little doubt Maui will come back, we aren't even shown how he changes his mind.

[@samwallaceart288]

indeed; and more specifically, how many goats must be used to make the trope work.

[@ourtube1128]

No! Michael has fallen to the dark side! But which way is down, and how much does down weigh?

[@xandermurdock6131]

Hey Mesauce, Vichael here.

[@keona5560]

FBI: stop right there

[@derptomistic]

But where are your fingers? *How do you know?*

[@michaelcooke3505]

That's my name

[@meandmybobbygee1812]

*Ends video on eternity*

[@bumblebee1884]

Yay! Trope talk!

[@willowmiku]

YAY!!!!

[@jackglover3108]

Willow Miku fallout edition!

[@thischarminggladioli9461]

"Fallout edition"?

[@jackglover3108]

This Charming Woman pretty much every bad faction in fallout

[@sircastic959]

+Jack Glover I would say Ceasar takes the cake on that one. I mean, the guy went from "humanitarian aid-worker" to "Militarist enlaving misogynist brutal dictator with a terrible sense of fashion" that got to earm some props.

[@tabithaalphess2115]

11:07 I don't know, I never had a problem with the idea that evil is natural and people are inherently evil. The reason why is because it means being good is hard, being heroic isn't easy. It's natural to be selfish and look out for yourself, it's the way moat animals behave. But to be good - to look beyond yourself - means so much more because you had to rise above yourself and put in the extra effort to do something that benefitted others. Even if you put a lot of work into an evil act, it's often still easier to do than the right thing. Being good isn't just following the rules and not hurting people or not being an asshole. That isn't being morally upright, it's just avoiding social or legal consequences. Being good is looking beyond yourself and risking something important to you or foregoing something for the sake of another. Being truly good is a risk, and that's what makes it special. Anyway, that's always been my perspective on the matter. Good is selflessness while evil is selfishness. I'm not going to extrapolate any further as this is a KZbin comment, but if you use this framework, I think the worldview "Evil is natural and people are evil" could work very well in a story beyond "life is pain and people suck."

[@Zift_Ylrhavic_Resfear]

Selfishness isn't evil though, it's neutral.

[@sopand2489]

I honestly think that both good and evil are natural.

[@anonymousguy720]

Honestly I believe that morality is real and whatever does the most good for the most amount of people within reason is good at that moment, no “the ends justify the means” bullshit, thought that is the easiest way to justify a fallen hero, it is not the most creative. The best example of a fallen hero I can think of is from Code Geass, the idealist best friend, who literally believes that causing violence from the inside and obeying the system is the only way to change it only to destroy his ideals,killing lelouch, in the process understanding his friend and the machinations to create better world, even when it was founded on blood. Another great example is:Megatron, the decepticons just wanted freedom and the right to live as an ordinary Cybertronians, instead,the oligarchy of autobots, a powerful minority, abused them for mining, and laughed as they died in gladiatorial combat fights. Megatron is the good guy, until he ODs on dark energon and becomes a mindless murderer without function. The best way to make a good character, who fits the archetype is to make a combination of type 1 and 2, a character who could rationalize the side of evil or oppression and give the external pressure to make them preform the switch. If a writer doesn’t do that it makes the betrayal or the crossing sides seem forced or contrived.

[@tabithaalphess2115]

@@anonymousguy720 Essentially, people are more complicated (and interesting) than placing them on one end of the black and white morality spectrum

[@zuttoaragi8349]

One thing I've noticed about the presenter (Red, I'm guessing based on the comments) from the few videos I've watched, is she seems to have a VERY strong desire to see the world, or see the world portrayed, as an ultimately good and just place. It honestly seems rather childish to me.

[@NRF-ee6cp]

Light Yagami was never a hero. Just saying. He was just...apathetic. Until that fateful day. A fallen hero is probably Syndrome/Buddy Pine (The Incredibles), Jason Todd (DC), The Titanium Titan (Rl Tigre) and Bucky Barnes/Winter Soldier (Marvel). Anyone who WAS a hero at one point but then became a villain or anti-hero along the way.

[@sintasweifell5144]

He was apathetic, true. But I think Red was talking about his intentions here. "Creating a better world" is a pretty heroic thing to do, what made him fall were the means he used and the "with me as its God" part

[@darthlazurus4382]

I dont think he was completely apathetic. Light was figuring out his views when he found the Death Note. I think if he hadn't, he'd have followed his father's career and become a detective. Most likely he'd be a boring by the book lawful person.

[@ashoka9306]

@@darthlazurus4382 i think he was pretty set in his views. he thought all capital criminals deserve death and everybody who disagreed with him was just making pretenses. he got worse when he decided lazy people and those opposing him should also die.

[@pigeonboy7696]

Two-Face

[@darthlazurus4382]

@@ashoka9306 Aye, but he was a High School student. Chances are that if he hadn't have found the Death Note, he'd have grown and changed. He certainly would have been less arrogant

[@soopplaza4477]

New Red videos are always a treat

[@seamuslandis8925]

Gray characters are always more fun.

[@bobmcbob49]

Usually they just boil down to "not enough information yet to determine whether they're an antihero or rogue villain"

[@thenew4559]

+Seamus Landis, agreed. Most of the time they are.

[@dmas7749]

@@bobmcbob49: when they're done right though

[@dominiquemorris7800]

You should read the Web serial WORM. It's a superhero story where the main protagonist starts off as a villain.

[@takatacheroki2624]

I've got a character kinda like that on the back-burner. Kinda /tries/ to do good, but not really, and there's a lot of bad stuff he does too. Both to others and himself. Because reasons.

[@ladyoftheabyss13]

I truly loved the way you used Jason Todd and explained him in an incredible way!

[@jaylawrence8673]

9:25 I'm writting a book where it goes back and fourth between half the story which is told in 3rd person limited about the hero and the other half which is some journal written from the first person of this famous hero who supposedly died 200 years prior. Then we find out he's still alive and is one of the main villains. He captures the hero, and makes her read the journal. We get the rest of the story and find out the torture and tragedy that turned him that way. He then tells her he is going to inflict what he went through onto her and prove to himself that his falling wasn't his fault. The hero however points out that if he breaks another person the way he was, he has completely fallen. She points out that it would make him the exact same as the villain who did it to him, and by doing it to another person he'll be letting that villain win completely. This really gets to the fallen hero. And after the hero hits the right nerves by reminding him of the sister he accidently murdered (that was in the journal) the fallen hero decides to let the hero go and she rushes of to go save the day and whatever the fallen hero did next is purposely unknown but he stays in the hero's head as a reminder of what she must never become.

[@vritraofthenite6988]

Im surprised I never saw a mention of Arthas/The Lich King from Warcraft, honestly my favortie Fallen Hero story ever

[@MinecrafWolf]

Because Arthas, tho one of my favorite characters, was almost completely in control until he grabbed Frostmourne

[@Belgand]

It also brings up a key angle of this trope: the hero who feels like they need to go that far to accomplish a greater good.

[@thinhvo3893]

“Sometimes the fallen hero is your protagonist from the future” cough cough Fate Stay night cough cough.

[@aguywithalotofopinions412]

Archer is more of an anti-hero

[@thomasfazey5755]

After this I'm interested in a breakdown of the "last laugh" and/or "bittersweet/pyrrhic victory" trope.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

The “something terrible happens in your future and you become me” thing is basically Flash Season 3 and it was awful. If Flash’s sense of right and caring about others was so fragile that one loss would trigger full super villain mode he wouldn’t have been a hero in the first place.

[@rpgincorporated8302]

To be fair, that was a time remnant, not Barry prime. He says that it wasn’t the one loss that drove him to villainy, but the getting treated like a freak by everyone he cared about because he wasn’t the "real" Barry. It was the loss that drove Barry prime to create the time remnants that allowed Savvy's creation. Probably blown out of proportion there too, considering how Barry prime's future self refused to do anything at all, but still.

[@aguywithalotofopinions412]

That’s the point of this trope. To show that even the greatest paragon isn’t incorruptible

[@findingfuji]

Shirou: I want to be a Hero of Justice! And I won't let go of my ideals! Archer: Then drown with your ideals.

[@AB-dm1wz]

"You know what's fun? Murder." "Intiguing. Tell me more..." Oh dear, my sides XD

[@silviagutierrez9839]

'Fallen Heroes' is a running theme in My Hero Academia. The show constantly questions what being a 'hero' really is, or a 'villain' even. That's one of the reasons I love the show so much. It executes it beautifully.

[@silvermist4110]

A fun way for a fallen hero to turn hero again is when they fall from hero to villain cause something something killed all their family/friends or whatever an so tbey go all bad an evil. Thennnnn one those thought to be lost friends or something shows up [writers choice how] and they try soooo hard to stay evil an convicted but end up saving this lost family member\friend from actual evil or danger. Ex: Loki at start of Infinity War or ever. He wants to be "evil" but can never follow through actually killing his brother.

[@neekitsart]

I just realized that one of my characters is kind of a fallen hero when I thought they were just a redeemed villain so now I've got to redeem them properly Thanks 4 these, they're really helpful and help me write my stories better

[@penguinbear9432]

Neekits Art Do you post any of your stories anywhere?

[@TomBoygurl8]

To add a point, there's a lot more to be said for the "fallen hero directly parallels a current hero" thing. For example, when a fallen hero is correlated with one particular image or ability, it can remind you easily of the current hero whenever it's brought up. Let's use Hama again for simplicity's sake; In 'The Southern Raiders,' when Katara used bloodbending on the Southern Raider's commander, it obviously and clearly reminds us of Hama, and forces us to rethink the episode, somewhat, consciously or otherwise. ((The point here being that if Katara hated Zuko for the things he did, she wouldn't say to maybe bring her mother back, she would probably say something that he actually did, as opposed to something the fire nation at large did, blah blah blah, hates him because fire nation, Hama hates villagers because fire nation, you get it but it's really not relevant to the point I'm making)) It can happen in so many ways, though, like if a fallen hero gives a hero a weapon, and they use it to do something they swore not to do (eg. basically just a bunch of anime), or if the fallen hero has a line they use to justify their villainy, and the hero says it just at some point, (eg. Harry Potter; "For the greater good") Or even an animal or food or something associated with the fallen hero, that shows up one time, or an everyday thing that a fallen hero was good at being passed along to the hero, the fallen hero might have worn a scarf or hoodie, and the hero starts wearing one when they're gone, anyway, my point is there are so many tricks and hints that can be shown to get us to remind ourselves of the overall villain-hero relationship, and it's really fun to look out for them and examine them, at least if you're like me. God that was long, did literally anyone read that?

[@The1Dragonprincess]

Empress.Lollipopsie I did, and I think it’s a pretty interesting case of both the foreshadowing and echoing of the villain-hero relationship, and the visual reminders or hints that present such a complex story element.

[@tristanmccann6838]

one of my favorite subversions of this trope is The Unbelievable Gwenpool. When Gwenpool from the future tries to convince her younger self to become a super villain in order to prolong her shelf life as a comic book character. She chooses to be good, but at the cost of her book being prematurely cancelled.

[@asalways1504]

Great as always Red!

[@staticshotaop561]

As Always I thanks

[@110tacles]

As Always

[@amemequestthatwillneverbef9026]

I know she doesn't do many examples from video games but my favorite example of a fallen hero is knight Artorias from Dark Souls. Partly because I am a massive ds fanboy but also because of how its done.

[@oldcowbb]

mind control doesn't count

[@appouhal]

8:10 -- Yes, that is an excellent point. Up until "The Puppetmaster," the Water Tribe had always been portrayed to be the "good guys." This episode shows that everybody in the Avatar universe capable of evil regardless of which tribe they come from. And this is especially driven home in the Legend of Korra with Amon, Yakkone, and Tarrlok; and Zaheer is an interesting case where despite having vigorously studied and trained himself in Air Nomad culture, which had always been perceived as the most "innocent" culture relative to the other three nations, he ended up being an overzealous tyrant manically hell-bent on "freeing" the world by any means necessary.

[@ZenofireX]

Just wanna take a moment away from my binge on these to say how much these Trope Talks have helped me be a better DM. I was so focused on creating a believable world, that it wasnt filled with believable characters. Now that both are becoming more fleshed out, I feel as if I have a more breathing world for my players to live in. And that's been pretty neat. So, thank you ^_^

[@konstancemakjaveli]

Question: whats your opinion about "Alt-History" genre and is "Just following orders" a trope in itself?

[@thesadisticelf5659]

Another great video. As a writer myself, I love how these are simple, but yet detailed explanations.

[@penguinbear9432]

The Sadistic Elves Do you post stories anywhere? Just curious, you’re one of the only people here I’ve seen who said anything about writing.

[@ravnemagne9598]

Now that i think about it, Wow has a lot of fallen heroes Arthas Sylvanas (kinda) Sargeras Basically everyone who plays shadow priest

[@ThanesTito]

the entire DH playerbase, too and the DK playerbase, who are fallen (figuratively and literally) heroes, redeemed and kinda going fallen again

[@kacperdrabikowski5074]

Now think of Forsaken DK. They were heroic, then fell and served Scourge, then got redeemed (sorta) into Forsaken, then fell under command of Lich King AGAIN and THEN broke free YET AGAIN! Talk about hero/villain revolving door!

[@Ilyak1986]

Kerrigan (who goes full freaking circle). Arcturus Mengsk (though he was never heroic to begin with, just a change in point of view). Every player character from Diablo 1. Illidan (revolving door here). Blizzard milked this trope until the cow died. And last I heard, they're trying to pull a Kerrigan with Sylvanas.

[@michaeledwards6136]

My favorite part of watching your videos is memorizing the patterns of tropes you talk about, and later on recognizing these same patterns later on in things I play, watch or read. Basically watching your videos has just made me better at recognizing these tropes within all kinds of story telling and that's just awesome. You're awesome.

[@lonelycrow6990]

8:21 '-airbends all the air out of someone's lungs' holy heck, i've never seen legend of korra, and i wrote a short once from the villian's POV, where the villian did the exact same thing?? Not tryna be an r/thathappened, i'm just suprised that more people haven't done this kinda stuff with air heros/villians... didn't even think too much of it when i was writing the short. if you're looking for the short, pretty sure I drafted it somewhere, if i find it i'll put it on google docs and link it for y'all.

[@glasscardproductions4736]

Did you find it?

[@toxic2604]

I DROPPED WHAT I WAS JUST WATCHING FOR THIS

[@hueylongdong900]

same,i rarely close the pornhub tab so fast

[@hueylongdong900]

i mean the video even had a pole and a blonde man

[@saeraphim]

Toxic I was looking at a reference for drawings with my sister then I saw this and left the picture immediately to watch this.

[@Warden_Vtel]

Toxic Same

[@jayblade2000]

You have Gwen from Camp Camp as your profile pic. That automatically makes you awesome.

[@TyphinHoofbun]

I have a story in which the hero is going to *consider* herself fallen because she killed in self-defense. She'll want to redeem herself but also not really think she can be redeemed, and kind of go "death seeker" for a while. Holding back a bit less because she's emotional, frustratedly shouting "Why can none of you kill me?", all that good stuff. I haven't fully planned out every interaction, but I plan on her getting to a point of "It was regrettable, and it is a reminder to improve so I'm not forced into that point in the future. At least not as easily." It'll still give her pangs of regrets when it comes up, it'll still cause her to stop and question whether she deserves things like friendship... I might even have her on trial, where she's tearfully advocating for her own death while her lawyer is trying to convince both her and the jury that it was self-defense, but I haven't decided yet. Partially because I don't know law, so I worry I'd write a pretty horrible courtroom scene. But she's a Construct with a soul, so she's not used to having people treat her like a person with rights, so when people point out that the guy she killed was a serial killer who killed her creator, tried to kill her and her best/first friend, and was very thoroughly invested in causing untold deaths if he got his way, her response is (at least for a while) going to be, "Yes, but he was human, and I can't be allowed to kill a human. I need to be destroyed."

[@isomeme]

My favorite weird fallen hero is Paul Atreides. His setup is almost a parody of a standard hero template -- chosen one, ousted noble, dead father to avenge, the works. Then, as his prophetic powers kick in, he begins succeeding beyond his wildest dreams, but along a path he knows will lead to his fanatical followers rampaging across the galaxy and killing billions of people, all at his command. By the time Paul truly understands how evil he is becoming, he can't find any way to escape his destiny. It's a remarkably tragic character arc.

[@cake6851]

Can we talk about the messiah complex? My favorite example is enrico pucci from jojo.

[@NoNameAtAll2]

Is that a Jojo reference?

[@josephdavis9234]

... No.

[@cake6851]

NoName When in doubt assume its a jojo reference

[@cake6851]

Joseph Davis Awww why not?

[@jamesharrison658]

Griffith from berserk is a great example, with what his goal throughout the series is that he practically accomplishes that is beautifully perverted by the fact you know what he's done in the past. Actually by the definition he is the messiah, not just a naughty boy.

[@elizabethhuang8450]

Funny how this shows up in my recommended again right after THAT GoT episode comes out...

[@gulano8258]

Yeah, those writers really should have watched this video...

[@Realperson16]

Just for clarification, GoT as in what exactly?

[@gulano8258]

@@Realperson16 Game Of Thrones

[@Realperson16]

@@gulano8258 oh, thanks for clarifying

[@merri-golden8826]

Is there a video on those in the middle , if not can there be.

[@3inamillion581]

Yes, that needs to happen neutral characters are great

[@grasshopper801]

Look up "neutral stupid" on tvtropes.com, that's one of my favorite kinds of neutral from a comedic perspective. As for more serious neutral characters, I like the ones who have a specific set of values (family being one of the most common) that they hold above any other moral conflicts.

[@MegaTang1234]

it could be a good episode. She could cover charaters that do morally ambiguous things, blue and orange morality, the concept of the Übermensch and pacifism.

[@canadious6933]

Middle Characters....I'm guessing like Geralt of Rivia, John Wick, Han Solo.....Samwise gamgee....

[@firetarrasque4667]

Except peace is almost always good. And... Actually we have no good truly neutral characters I can think of.

[@MagnusArchvile]

This reminds me of one of my favorite points brought up by DJ Peach Cobbler: are you actually a good person, or are you only a good person because being good is easy?

[@xerowon3490]

Read Mistborn. Everything you think you know is a lie in Mistborn

[@sintasweifell5144]

Ouu, I just bought the Mistborn series and I'm hyped gto read it now

[@dreamingblue3939]

possibly my favorite book series :)

[@gloweye]

Not everything is a lie... there's just always another secret. The difference is that lies are made when the speaker KNOWS it's not true.

[@bravetod5041]

Out of all the trope talks, this is my favorite

[@Skye_Writer]

The best example I've ever seen of the fallen hero being redeemed was on the Justice League animated series, the one with the Injustice Lords. Batman is fighting with himself in the Batcave, telling his Injustice alter ego that he made a grab for power, and Injustice Batman shoots back that with that power they have made a world where no 8-year-old boy will EVER lose his parents. Hero Bats is so shook, he stops the fight,drops his batarang and agrees to go with Dark Bats. Hero Bats drives the car, and he stops at a traffic light ("It's the little laws that count, right?" he says, throwing DB's words back at him) and they witness a man at an outdoor cafe getting upset over his bill because he's being way overcharged, pointing out that the numbers don't add up, and the Injustice Lords gestapo show up right away and haul him off for making a fuss. DEAD SERIOUS, HB looks at DB and says, "They'd like here, don't you think?" DB asks who he means, and he replies, "Mom and Dad." And then he says with dripping sarcasm, "They'd be SO proud of you." It was such a beautiful way of showing how Bruce's main motivation--wanting to make the world safe for his parents and for kids like he used to be--could cause his dark turn, making him believe that the ends justify the means. But it also showed how holding a mirror up to what he had become, and what those same parents would think of him now, could also be the turning point back to the light.

[@just_dias4156]

fallen hero: revan, because he fell like three times

[@SorowFame]

I'd think Revan is sort of a mix between a type one and type two fallen hero, he's always been a bit extreme in his methods but it was only after the influence of the Sith Emperor affected him he went full on villainous. Also interesting in that he's somewhat of a variant of type two but referring to redeeming a villain instead of causing a hero's fall, given that it was only after he was practically brainwashed by the Jedi that he turned good, going back to his extremist ways after the events of the game before being properly redeemed after his death in the MMO.