Trope Talk: Heroic Sacrifices

[@pleaseclap7890]

Sometimes the way Red breaks something down makes me go “Oh right yeah, she was a math major in college.”

[@collecter343]

You know that makes sense now why she analyzes stuff for how to be optimal

[@xyryyn]

As a math major, I agree.

[@NoobPTFO]

I MISREAD THIS AS “she was a major death in college” BECAUSE OF THE VIDEO TITLE

[@themantyf1116]

@@collecter343 math and writing aren't that different after all, both are ways to reach the soul of the world.

[@jacobyoung935]

​@@themantyf1116 found the philosophy major

[@seanmcloughlin5983]

“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the British.” -Yugi as he heroically sacrificed Bakura to win a children’s card game (in Yugioh abridged)

[@jfangm]

To be fair, the British government thinks the exact same thing.

[@Alias_Anybody]

​@@jfangm If it was the needs of many British Vs the needs of a few British, what's even the point of the choice? It's like deciding between soap and chalk for dinner.

[@charlesfisher-kh5sw]

@@jfangm former administrations have, anyway

[@torazely]

Also George Washington probably.

[@jfangm]

@Alias_Anybody *whoosh*

[@apezplays9925]

Optimus Prime voted "most likely to die in a heroic sacrifice"

[@tomatooverlord2764]

Bro dies in basically every continuity, including Beast Wars, which he *wasn't even awake for*

[@Omenweaver]

He's always got his heroic farewell speech tucked away, so he doesn't meet the moment unprepared

[@syabilaazri7834]

O.P dont mind Hot Rod become Rodimus Prime. It just the fandom cant handle it just like the Bronies who watch season 3 finale where Twilight Sparkle become a Princess....

[@seelcudoom1]

Leomon would like a word

[@reyonXIII]

Thing is, G1 OP's death doesn't count as a heroic sacrifice per se. TFP's OP, however HAS done an actual heroic sacrifice at the end of the first season. And, surprisingly, it doesn't involve him dying. Sort of. I think the best example of heroic sacrifice in Transformers is still Dinobot's.

[@perezo27]

"Why are we acting like the ONE DUDE in Gotham with a no-kill rule needs to be the one who does the killing?" THANK YOU

[@matityaloran9157]

In The Batman, Batman objects to James Gordon bringing a gun in. It’s no secret that Batman’s reason for hating guns is that they’re lethal weapons. That’s more than Batman just having a no killing rule, it’s him objecting to other people not having one

[@perezo27]

@@matityaloran9157 ...yeah, I know, no one was saying "well, Batman won't kill him, but he can just take Jason Todd with him to do it" The point is that if anyone should be killing the Joker at all, it should be the system. Whether actual death penalty or whatever, an actual jury that can decide that.

[@matityaloran9157]

@@perezo27 That argument works for me for some versions of Batman but not for others. Since some iterations have Gotham City’s entire system be so indelibly corrupt that it doesn’t make sense for Batman to trust them to do anything

[@JustAUsername13]

Honestly, I still blame Batman not because it's his responsibility alone but he's just as guilty as the rest of the justice system of Gotham. Batman and the Cops don't consider ending the clown's life because it's the judges job, the Judges don't consider the death penalty for the Joker because he's "insane" and the Arkham Guards don't consider making the Joker's a bit more lethal for him since they're just guards. Really, it's a good analysis about the dangers of collective failure.

[@MrTreymeister]

Ikr

[@MegaGanash]

"Just because I wouldn't make a decision, doesn't mean [archetype character] needs to" You are the only adult online

[@timeforgottenprince8271]

Instantly thought of Church's final speech in RvB about the hero never knowing if their sacrifice made the difference.

[@JosephHeiskell]

Same

[@calzone7961]

It's probably my favorite sacrifice speech in all of fiction

[@Admiral_Ellis]

"There's so many good stories where some brave hero has to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors cheer, and everyone lives happily ever after. But the hero never gets to see the ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith. Ain’t that a bitch.” - Epsilon/Church For the uninitiated.

[@kingofhearts3185]

RvB really managed to do that scene perfectly.

[@VladdViever]

​@calzone7961 i almost think of Erwin's final speech in attack on titan as the counter points to it.

[@skeletonpatch]

“Stories aren’t ethical optimization exercises, they’re scenarios for your brain to chew on, and the most important thing is that they’re interesting.” ~Red casually summarizes my personal philosophy on fictional storytelling like it’s nothing whilst I’ve struggled to articulate this exact point for years. Though in all likelihood Red probably came to this conclusion after spending a considerable amount of time pondering her relationship with the media she consumes so for her it’s probably not nothing. Unless she actually just heard it somewhere and thought to herself, “that’s good, I’mma use that,” because that is good, and I’mma use that.

[@leithaziz2716]

I fell into that pitfall as well and it made me forget why people like stories that aren't real in the first place. I'm happy that I'm self-aware of that and am working on improving that slowly.

[@Chroniknight]

They're interesting or make you think or have meaning or cause you to improve yourself/your outlook/how you treat people or they convey history or they provide a warning or they teach you how to not be controlled or they are to control you. I think the most important thing is up to the writer, and they are definitely not supposed to be any one thing everytime like ethical optimization, agreed.

[@Vinemaple]

Those kind of statements are the best part of Red's videos.

[@darwinxavier3516]

One of the biggest traps people fall into with lessons in a story is that they take those lessons as a hard rule. One lesson can show the benefits of inaction because you assess the situation more fully before committing to an irreversible decision. On the other hand other lessons will show how hesitation for the sake of careful consideration will cause irreversible damage by being too late to prevent that damage when they had the chance. There's no one size fits all. But then some people will also take that kind of uncertainty and relativism and turn that into a hard philosophy of "well we can't be sure, so we shouldn't even try to be consistent".

[@Lampent12]

That's why I love stories with bittersweet endings (Final Fantasy 16 comes to mind), no spoilers here, but if you know, you know.

[@Echo-pz5mi]

Like a great man said: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith. Aint that a bitch

[@hansmorktopphol901]

Thats one of the things I love most about Rogue One. Pretty sure it’s covered in another trope talk or a detail diatribe or something, but the whole ending of that movie is just every character giving their life to give the others a little more time, or a slight chance, until finally the two main characters can transmit the Death Star plans. And before they die Cassian asks Jyn if she thinks anyone is listening. And her answer is that she doesn’t know, but hopes so. The movie specifically points out that none of the characters who just sacrificed their lives while ever know if it made a difference, and since the whole point of the movie is hope, this just makes the message hit so much harder, as all these characters had to comfort them in their last moments was hope.

[@kellyalejandroedwards2974]

Its always jarring when Red vs Blue goes profound

[@JoeMama4352]

And then they make 7 more seasons

[@Rose-yx6jq]

That's why many of them have "Did we win?" As their last words.

[@Rose-yx6jq]

​@@kellyalejandroedwards2974 "professionals have standards." That's a favorite of mine.

[@OrUptotheStars]

I like how this plays out in Fullmetal Alchemist when the bad guys try to kill Hawkeye in the finale. She refuses to let Mustang save her, sacrificing herself so that he won't perform human transmutation and give the bad guys a necessary pawn. Meanwhile Mustang, by abiding by her wishes, has to sacrifice his guiding ideal to protect his subordinates no matter what. It's a double heroic sacrifice that gives both character a chance to shine.

[@the_well-known_stranger2275]

Right up until the bad guys forcibly do it anyway. Still a good moment though

[@alucard347]

@@the_well-known_stranger2275 I actually kinda liked that. It was one of the rare moments of "have your cake and eat it too". Usually when sacrifices are interrupted it really takes you out of the moment, making the sacrifice feel meaningless and/or comedic. But I'd argue that for some reason I never felt that way about the sacrifice in FMA. Somehow that sacrifice still felt noble, and had the added tension of showing how threatening the bad guys are that they could force the sacrifice on someone. I guess the fact that Pride was so weakened by forcing mustang was probably the tipping point for me, there was a cost for the bad guys to him being dragged kicking and screaming into the ritual, something that wouldn't have happened if he didn't agree to Riza's sacrifice. It wasn't just a fake-out sacrifice, because it had a cost for everyone involved.

[@orianefaton1885]

@@alucard347 It can even kinda been seen in Mustang's loss of his sight. Going by the typical standard of the Truth, you would expect him to have actually lost his eyes, not sight his sense of sight. I mean. Alphonse lost his freaking body. Izumi had her organs rearranged in a weird way after part of them were taken... Ed lost his leg. I am not even trying to write the name of Ed and Al's father, but he is the only one who look like he lost nothing... because he technically did nothing. He was just sitting there in a ritual that transformed him into a philosopher stone. He lost his mortality, but of course, it isn't visible. Mustang, still has his eyes. His face didn't get mutilated by the Truth. Maybe as an aknowledgment by the truth itself that he DID NOT want to open that door. Just like the father of the brothers never had this intent. They were used and they are those with the "less" visible loss.

[@NaztheWise]

Yeah, Fullmetal Alchemist has so many good heroic sacrifices. My favourite will still always be Edward giving up alchemy for his brother but that one is also a really good one.

[@curiousKuro16]

​@orianefaton1885 I like this idea that the Truth had to take SOMETHING but didn't want to take much, since Mustang didn't open the door himself. It always frustrated me that he lost anything at all, since he didn't even technically perform the ritual and Truth would know that.

[@valdonchev7296]

That trolley problem section reminds me of "Dying is easy, young man living is harder" - the play Hamilton

[@magnusprime962]

Babylon 5 had a great take on it too: “It’s easy to find things worth dying for, it’s harder to find things worth living for.”

[@kjarakravik4837]

In the first Gintama movie, Gintoki says to a fellow samurai in the middle of battle "If you have time to fantasize about a beautiful end, then just live beautifully 'til the end."

[@sarahgreen238]

Yeah, heroic sacrifices (whether it's expected to lead to death or just grievous bodily harm) always piss me off bc s"1cide and selfh@rm are NOT heroic actions. Living through and with the pain is so much harder

[@kninenights]

@@sarahgreen238well the point isn’t the death. The point is the sacrifice. And the vast majority of the time, that’s intended to save someone else. You’re right that just dying in a situation that wouldn’t benefit anyone else isn’t a good thing. But it’s hard to argue with one person taking a bullet to save hundreds.

[@CMelon-xe1qc]

“I see that many people die because they deem that life is not worth living and I see others that, paradoxically, get themselves killed for the ideas, the illusions that gives them a reason to live. What can be a reason to live is at the same time an excellent reason to die.” -The myth of Sisyphus ( not the actual myth it’s a book that some French philosopher wrote about suicide

[@Imbored7920]

Something I love is when a sacrifice is more selfish than selfless. Take Shadow Weaver from Shera for example. She sacrifices herself to escape the consequences to her own actions and as a way to manipulate Catra into forgiving her. It’s not a redemption, it’s a manipulation. I love seeing more nuanced sacrifices like this

[@CleverFoxStudios]

Literally came here to say this one, it's so good for all the wrong reasons 😂

[@flockinify]

There's strong characterization when the reasoning is a combination of selfishness and selflessness. Emiya Shirou for example constantly sacrifices himself for others, but does it in part because it's the only way he can feel happy, in part because of survivor's guilt, in part because he views his life as worthless, in part because of a promise, and in part because the ideal is beautiful.

[@LovesRodents]

Shadow Weaver died doing what she loved: traumatizing her adopted daughters.

[@Center-For-I.E.D.Mismanagement]

Regarding Shadow Weaver: That's not a sacrifice. That is the ultimate act of cowardice.

[@jfangm]

Or the Randian selfish sacrifice, whereby the hero sacrifices themselves simply because they want to. It's not for the needs of the many, it's not for a cause, it's not to forward a grand plan, it's not because they're the only ones who stand a chance of survival, it's entirely because the hero wants to, for their own selfish reasons.

[@jackwright7879]

I see you using the Legend of Zelda colors for courage, wisdom, and power. I mean...bravery, selflessness, and mightiness.

[@Skellybeans]

I didn't notice this at first but now I can't unsee it 😅

[@CarbonMage]

Wisdom out here like, "hey kids, ever heard of Utilitarianism?"

[@RevanReborn3950BBY]

@@CarbonMagebro

[@liamnehren1054]

kind of, selflessness can be wise but it isn't always. I direct you to the second Sword of truth Novel, really good series with a lot of morals even if Twitter Karen's hate the recently deceased Author. Somewhere half way through a story is told about a man coming back from war with his leg broken, everyone takes care of him and he doesn't need to get out of bed, and they keep taking care of him even when the leg is healed and he needs to use it to regain his strength. Eventually his leg muscles atrophy leaving him crippled. So a Selfless act was entirely unwise.

[@somewhereelse1235]

Human kindness, empathy, and dignity do not care about what you think is unwise, it was simply the correct thing to do to help a struggling member of a community recover. We have fossil records of hominids splinting and healing broken bones, and being buried alongside presumably their family, something that would have burdened them greatly as a pre agrarian society. That was not unwise. It was simply the correct thing to do.

[@abdulmujeebshaikh2921]

Comparing heroic sacrifices as trolley problems is actually pretty interesting

[@Alby-1975]

Chainsaw man?

[@magnusprime962]

The Good Place did it once, though surprisingly not as elegantly as Red here.

[@Blazingstoke]

"Do not grieve. It was logical...the needs of the many...outweigh..." "The needs of the few" "Or the one. I never took the Kobayashi Maru test...until now. What do you think of...my solution?"

[@VivaLaDnDLogs]

Whenever people discuss "Heroic Sacrifice", my mind always goes to Spiderman 2. The Train Scene, a situation where he puts everything on the line because he knows what will happen if he doesn't. And unlike most acts of heroism in Marvel (or even Sam Raimi's other Spiderman films), if this doesn't work, he's not just going to be dealing with the guilt of letting everyone down. He's going to die first, and it will be in the most painful way imaginable. If Spiderman's plan doesn't work, the last thing these people will see before their deaths is _Spiderman being torn apart._ Add in Tobey Maguire's heart-wrenching screams of genuine pain, and you have no questions about what's at stake here.

[@horseenthusiast9903]

Yes!!! I also think it's interesting that the whole movie, Peter is sacrificing himself; he's putting aside his personal life to be Spider-Man. When he stops doing that and focuses on being himself, it's equally unsustainable; he has to learn to be in balance between his life as Peter and his life as Spider-Man. In contrast, Otto is subsumed by Doc Ock, and has no way to achieve a sustainable balance. So he enacts a heroic sacrifice of his own, striking the closest thing he can to a balance by choosing to save the city and die as himself. I think it's really cool how in each movie of the trilogy, in some way the villain's story is a perfect foil to Peter's, right down to the structure.

[@nathank2289]

I get more emotional at "He's just a kid... no older than my son... If you want him you have to go through me"

[@daggergaming3943]

The epitome of bravery at 2:38 being "excuse me I asked for no pickles" is the truest thing I've seen today

[@TerryBradstreet]

Nah, it’s easy. It’s just not always worth the time.

[@Theology.101]

There is no trope that means more to me then a person standing back up against unstoppable odds, knowing they're doomed, but knowing that they have no choice but to continue

[@Theology.101]

Shit like Cecil in Invincible S1E7, Dean Winchester, Spider-Man holding the train AND the people protecting spider-man from Doc Ock, Brienne of Tarth, Trevor Belmont (constantly), The God Emperor of Mankind, a random helldiver, Clone Commander Thorn, the Boys (also constantly) and is the only reason why the GrimDark setting works for me - I LOVE seeing good will and persistence to overpower almost anything. As someone with very little regard for my own life, dying heroically always seemed to be dope.

[@kuchenjaeger2164]

That's why I loved that moment in Avengers Endgame right before the portals open. Where it's just Cap standing there, with a broken shield, tightening its straps and getting ready to face Thanos' army alone. Such a powerful image.

[@LostToaster]

CADIA STANDS!

[@reyonXIII]

I am a warrior. Let the battle be joined.

[@seelcudoom1]

this is something i think a lot of media, especially anime thats gotten caught up in power fantasys, has forgotten, having a character shrug off some huge attack and overpower their opponent doesent feel badass, having someone very obviously seriously hurt, in incredible pain, tears streaming down their face and struggling to stand, but standing anyway is always going to be cooler theirs a reason one of the most hype and beloved scenes in one punch man isent any of the op heroes, but the guy whos power is "good at riding a bike" getting his ass beat by a deepone on steroids, in a fight he knows he cant win merely to buy the civilians a precious few more seconds

[@GurrenPrime]

I’m glad you brought up the idea of heroic sacrifices where it feels like the hero has too little self-worth. The line between a sacrifice and a suicide can get uncomfortably thin in some places, and over time I’ve been getting more and more appreciative of stories that allow heroes more unconditional victories, even in seemingly impossible odds.

[@zer0w0lf94]

Kendal from Aurora and Luz Noceda from The Owl House come to mind when thinking about the sacrifice-suicide line.

[@riluna3695]

Yep. We see that in Undertale with the backstory of Chara Dreemurr (who coincidentally happens to be my pfp). First meets monsterkind after an initial attempt to end their own existence, finding a better life in the process. But ultimately they give up their soul so that monsterkind can be free to live on the surface-world once more. But this sacrifice isn't all that heroic, because it's driven in large part by self-hatred and the notion that "my mistakes are endangering the lives of the family I love. They would be safer and happier without me." And lo and behold: this ended up being a mistake that cost the life of their best friend and adopted brother, Asriel. The plan to protect and benefit their family is exactly the plan that tore it apart. And the final irony is that this would only serve to further convince Chara that they were correct about how dangerous they were, despite that mentality being the very thing that led to disaster in the first place. Self-loathing is a helluva drug.

[@nimnimn6930]

"Why haven't you realized . . . ? That somewhere among all the things you wish to save, shouldn't there be a spot for you, too . . . ? Just like many other people, fate has led you to many dead-ends. But just because you have the chance to change those . . . Why can't you see . . . that you're someone who deserves to be saved too . . . ?" - Satella

[@TLNT2103-zg3sb]

@@zer0w0lf94 Add MK from Monkie Kid on that list.

[@johndevlin9225]

Basically everyone in Re:Zero. And the heroic sacrifices almost always make things worse for everyone involved, especially Subaru.

[@gerstein03]

I love the dissection of the redemption via death thing. It really does feel like a cop out when they try to make it seem like dying makes all the bad stuff they did okay. This is why I actually think it works for Vader because he's not really redeemed. He's just saved Luke

[@split776]

Shadow Weaver's another good example of this I think - the way she chooses to say "you're welcome" as her final words, to the face of her two most direct victims. Manipulative to the very end

[@legomaniac213]

There was a recent Star Wars comic where Leia visits the remains of his pyre on Endor and says that while Luke may have forgiven him, she never will.

[@blackwing1362]

I would say he was redeemed as a father, but not as a man

[@MartinG1993]

And yet he still gets to merge with the force and hang out with Obi wan and Yoda. I remember seeing episode 6 for the first time (I had seen the 1-3 first) and that bit left a bad taste in my mouth.

[@jfangm]

@@MartinG1993 Most SW fans don't like how Lucas made him a child-killer. A better version of that scene would have been Vader seeing the Younglings, the CTs coming up the lift behind him, and Vader just watching as the reflection of blaster bolts on the walls tells us all we need to know. That would have fit better, since he also just watched Alderaan get blown up. He didn't give the order, he didn't try to stop it, he just watched. THAT is redeemable. Actively killing children is not.

[@williamwray2522]

"Im bad, and thats good. I will never be good and thats not bad. There's no one I'd rather be, then me..."

[@thedragonwarrior5861]

Ralph truly was a good guy

[@DURTYMYK3]

"One of the most interesting things aboht a hero, is what they think of as a sacrifice." That line man.... incredibly profound. Another excellent video Red

[@sirelfinjedi]

Slightly different take on Superman removing his powers: I think he could no longer trust himself to be Superman. Because he compromised, he was capable of further compromise, and that was more dangerous than Mixy.

[@Logamer-tn6db]

Exactly! Superman could break the world a thousand times over in a million different ways, so he has to deem himself worthy of that power. We like to think that if superman when rogue or went into a bad mental space that batman could stop him. But the thing is, Bruce should not have to. Superman is his own ultimate judge. If he breaks his code, he has officially made a exception to his rule, and that cannot be allowed when he has unlimited power.

[@seasnaill2589]

@@Logamer-tn6db Its as Red said, nobody could possibly hold Superman accountable so its up to him to hold himself accountable.

[@robertpaige4505]

@@seasnaill2589 ::nods:: Golden Age Superman (and Silver Age, for the most part) was the most powerful of the powerful. The rest of the heroes of Earth would have to band together to stand a ghost of a chance. Not like modern comics, where there's at least a half-dozen characters who could keep Supes in check (if properly written, of course). And Supes knows this.

[@Parmesan_Seeker]

I also think that story treats Superman as an ideal, the sort of archtypical heroic figure. Clark Kent might have made the best decision he could have there, but the whole point of Superman is that he doesn't compromise. If there's no good choice then Superman finds one anyway. And of course no one can fully live up to that standard, not even Clark himself. By the end of the story, Clark wasn't Superman anymore, but I don't take that as meaning Superman no longer exists, because that impossible standard of goodness and heroism is still there, for people to never quite reach but always be inspired by. Maybe that's what happened to the man of tomorrow. At least that's how I read it, I think there's more than one thing to get out of that story.

[@darekun46]

Setting aside the slippery slope interpretation, I'd say that suggests he needed to take some time out and start a redemption arc. He needed to fix that flaw and /become/ someone who could again be trusted to be Superman, not write himself off for one flaw.

[@feltrix334]

I was just thinking "wow, Red's really not going to talk about 10's regeneration?" right before the clip started playing. I think that's a particularly interesting example of a heroic sacrifice because the Doctor will continue existing, it's just 10's self that changes, so it is only a sacrifice to himself and the people close to him. It is also a sacrifice that he is openly, actively resentful that he is making, which is not something I see very often.

[@erin8050]

He allowed himself a bare few minutes to cry and complain and be angry before shutting down his emotions and saving Wilf agaisnt Wilf's wishes. Wilf knows he's old and will die in a few years, he's already done his living, he sees The Doctor as a young man even if he knows he's actually thousands of years old. Wilf knows The Doctor is more important in the grand sceme of the universe (or at least Earth) continuing to function well and safely so even after he's released from the radiation chamber he tries to change his mind and be the sacrifice. But 10 knows Donna doesn't and won't remember him, even with the memory-restoring-brain-blast that she'd just experienced she wouldn't be able to handle the memories and they'll quickly fade again. But Donna does remember her grandfather. She won't mourn 10, she can't, and she won't mourn her grandfather that day either. The only one who will mourn 10 is Wilf. The Doctor lives but 10 dies.

[@tinahawley320]

@@erin8050 One of my favorite moments in the entire Doctor Who canon. ;.;

[@ThomasstevenSlater]

What got Wilf into that situation is that he lined himself up to be the heroic sacrifice so he could save a complete stranger who has working for the worst guy.

[@ReddwarfIV]

Unfortunately, that particular heroic sacrifice is rendered less impactful when you realise just how forced it was. There is zero reason for a medical device to vent its radiation into a room with a person in it. The exact same plot device came up in Torchwood season 2's finale, where the Turnmill nuclear plant (not Blaidd Drwg, so not designed by a malevolent Slitheen) vents nuclear material into its own control room. But okay, let's say this obvious safety hazard was somehow a requirement for the design. Why does it always need a person in one of the rooms? What if there was a completely unrelated fire or something and the houses needed to be evacuated? There would be someone stuck in that glass case for no reason. It's silly. Compare that to the 9th Doctor's finale. Sure, he didn't go through with the heroic sacrifice, but if he had, it would have been because of a situation that forced him to for understandable and logical reasons. The Daleks need to be destroyed, the only weapon he has is a transmitter, but there's no time to refine it. He'd be killing himself (and Earth's population) but saving the universe from a deadly threat. There's nothing that could have been done to avoid it, nothing obviously stupid forcing the situation. As a result, it's an incredibly impactful moment story-wise. About the only thing I think they could have done would be to have Jack make more disintegration beams from Satellite 5's stock of defabricators, instead of using Station Security's crappy ballistic weapons. Still, the Daleks had overwhelming numbers, so the plot could have had exactly the same outcome.

[@jameswest6232]

@@ReddwarfIV Good point. I think DT's performance is amazing, but yeah. It's honestly funny when you recall the design of the booths themselves. They're tiny, have minimal controls, probably terrible ventilation if any, and no place to sit. And some schmuck is supposed to stand in there for hours non-stop until the next shift arrives? I can get the idea that the machine needs constant supervision and monitoring. That's fine. But why would that EVER require someone to be locked in a glass both? As I'm typing this, I'm beginning to head-cannon that The Master's cronies confused the "control room" with the "waste bin" and that's why 10 had to die.

[@IsaacNeeder]

A Shoutout to Segata Sanshiro sacrificing himself to save Sega from a nuclear missile and questionably dying in the process. He did show up in a ad for another commercial as alive and well in the 2010s.

[@TrashJack3000]

And in "Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed", Segata makes a cameo in the "Race of Ages" track, still riding that nuke and steering it away from buildings and the racetrack.

[@Hawkatana]

@@TrashJack3000 He even shows up in Project X Zone 2.

[@reyonXIII]

He thought he was going to willingly give his life. I'd like to think that no one, and certainly not he, could have ever expected that he could handily survive such a thing, even with all the other insane shit he could pull.

[@IsaacNeeder]

@@reyonXIII so is the power of the Sega Saturn I guess

[@EnerKaizer]

not alive. He came back for a short amount of time to test the resolve of his son who'd take over as Segas protector for him now that he had grown up. Heck, said son judo flips segata into the stratossphere at the end, too LOL

[@francisweller839]

See, this is why we love this channel: there’s no definitive answers. Every aspect of the subject matter is broken down, separated, explained, then elaborated on to show how the previous explanation was insufficient before shoving it all back together, and re-distributing it, throwing as many lenses as possible across the outer surface and interior organs of the subject matter. Peak

[@eldesconocidosenork5981]

"Just because I would make a different decision, doesn't mean (...) needs to" This is something a LOT of people, not even fans, but general superhero consumers and fiction critics need to reintegrate into their practice. Thank you Red

[@TerryBradstreet]

Like how just because Batman chooses not to kill the Joker doesn’t mean no one else should. It can be perfectly reasonable that the Batman is objectively the worst person in Gotham to kill the Joker, and that someone else should.

[@MD0K]

Al sacrificing himself to get Ed's arm back, cry every time

[@overlookers]

_"Keep moving, Brother."_

[@MD0K]

@@overlookers 🥲

[@kyriss12]

To be fair it was less about the arm and more about Al being taken out of commission, ed being unable to do alchemy one handed, and the bbeg getting ready to kill everyone.

[@asveses5730]

This video came to me when I was thinking of ways to write a heroic character. Red, are you... In my walls!?

[@bluesbest1]

She makes several videos in parallel to one another, so it's not that she's watching you, she simply saw your future months in advance.

[@stevemcgroob4446]

She's in the walls... SHE'S IN THE GOTDAM WALLS!!!

[@ChristianNeihart]

Red is secretly a Xenomorph.

[@GoErikTheRed]

No, that would be crazy. She was in your walls several weeks ago analyzing every aspect of your life and predicting what you would be thinking about far enough in advance to make a video about it

[@Wolfeson28]

She's behind the bookcase, of course.

[@Conner3030]

I think the question of "Why doesn't Batman kill The Joker" was beautifully answered in Batman: Under The Red Hood. Bruce explains it, he thinks about killing Joker, maiming him, torturing him He without question wants to end him. BUT Bruce is highly self-aware of his own mental state. Bruce is scared that if he crosses that line he might not come back at all, that killing Joker will unleash a floodgate that he can not stop. Bruce is worried that it will go from Joker's "He deserves to die" to Two-Face "There is no helping Harvy so I might as well put him down" to just looking at Ridler and being done with his shit. Bruce is worried that once he starts he will not stop.

[@fandomking8939]

Which is fine, but there are stories where not only does Batman protect Joker, but there are at least two occasions where Batman brings Joker back after he's dead. Batman has already lost all moral high ground in the situation because he won't allow the Joker to stay dead.

[@ked49]

But why did Bruce lobby for the death penalty to be removed? Why does he tell any cops he works with to not kill the joker? The issue isn’t Bruce not wanting to slip,it is the fact he is forcing others(who don’t have the same mental issues) to obey his rule.

[@fandomking8939]

​@@ked49exactly.

[@toko90s9]

Honestly, I greatly prefer the interpretation that 'Batman values the sanctity of life' over 'if I kill the Joker I will become the Joker'. Batman doesn't kill because he experienced that kind of loss first hand, and doesn't want anyone else to go through that; especially not by his own hands. Even the most vile of villains have people who care for them. (Though it often varies from continuity to continuity)

[@leithaziz2716]

I'm not sure why "Man wanting to uphold a moral code that he lives for" needs to have an optimal answer that covers all bases for wether it's the best option. Bruce in a human being that wants to help the world as much as he can in his own way AND THAT IS FINE. This is what makes him a compelling character, because no-one is perfect. That doesn't mean we don't try to do our best in our own ways. I dunno about you, but I find someone who values life that much that he will never compromise a beautiful thing. "How the world works" is not something that he's at fault for. He stops criminals and apprehends them, he sacrifices his personal life for the safety and happyness of everyone else, he tries to be a symbol of hope for the city. And that should be enough.

[@Rossco1010]

"The kitten will share your fate" I laughed so hard when I saw that while cooking supper, thank you

[@cattievogelsong96]

“The most interesting thing about a hero is what they think of as a sacrifice.” I feel like this is true for people now. I will be remembering this quote for a while.

[@domino960]

What's funny to me about this trope, is that Jesus Christ nails it (pun not intended) perfectly. So he's by definition a superhero

[@matityaloran9157]

A lot of superhero stories are influenced by religious stories

[@Oxtocoatl13]

I mean I don't think it's a coincidence that our Christianity-influenced culture values sacrifice and martyrdom so highly. It's not a very common trope in ancient Greek myths, for instance. The Iliad, for all it's death and devastation, doesn't really have a proper heroic sacrifice moment. The story of Jesus and the tradition of martyrdom narratives that followed have an enduring cultural footprint even in stories by people who don't consider themselves religious.

[@shadowofchaos7675]

My favorite line from a character: a hero cant help if he is dead

[@wonderlilane3724]

Sort of similar to how people are instructed to put the mask on themselves before helping another in airplanes. You can't help another if you're in no condition to help yourself. I've even heard that some rescue personnel are discouraged from rescuing people who are deemed to be beyond saving, since it's better for the experienced and trained personnel to live to save more people another day than to die with someone who couldn't be saved anyway.

[@GentleIceZ]

Very happy you mentioned how heroic sacrifices can often be treated as a "get out of karma free" card, because that was the first thing on my mind when I saw this video

[@2x_Helix]

The ending of Loki S2 is a great example of heroic sacrifice that doesn't fully rely on a character death or physical harm. The cost of willingly being alone again after all the times hes had to rebuild his relationships with his friends.

[@thediplomaticentertainer1785]

@@2x_Helix That really hit hard for some reason. Like, man... Dude straight up created Yggdrasil

[@matityaloran9157]

He basically turned into Clockwork from Danny Phantom

[@Lowkeylie]

I think you summed up the reason why we love heroic sacrifices so much best in one of your own videos, so I’m going to quote back some of your own words that really stuck with me. “At the end of the day, no matter what the night holds or what secret tragedies may be waiting for us, we can always choose to be kind. And that will always matter.”

[@lightninglancer966]

My instant thought was Dinobot's sacrifice in Transformers Beast Wars. After facing an existential crisis of whether his fate was fixed or not, he realizes he can choose, he chooses to save humanity's ancestors at the cost of his own life.

[@pickleskpg]

God I love Beast Wars

[@tumbleheart4664]

"Overriiiide!"

[@leithaziz2716]

"Code of Hero" A very beloved episode in the Transformers community. Many citing it as their favorite story in the franchise.

[@Gogoglovitch]

"The question that once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own. And yet, how ironic... for I now find that I have no choice at all! I am a warrior... let the battle be joined."

[@arbiterprime2145]

dude, that episode STILL brings me to tears every time i watch it

[@TheFirstLaughingFool]

I have a three part criteria for an exceptional death scene. 1) Heroic sacrifice 2) Going down swinging 3) Going out with a smile

[@ked49]

Step 2 is my favorite, they know they might not win, but why not take the enemy with them.

[@JoeJoesBizzareAmbitions]

"Odinson, will you wait for me in Valhalla?" "Brother.. this day, I will race you there!"

[@Atlas3060]

"Bang..." -Spike Spiegel

[@saulwiner2999]

A smile better suits a hero.

[@vilmublues752]

In Shadow Weaver's case, the creator has discussed redemption and how Shadow Weaver sacrificing herself was still her partially being selfish like always and like "if I do this one good thing and die for them, they'll _have_ to forgive me. Peace out." Catra also attempted to sacrifice herself earlier, but she lived and had to work to be better. Also, since we're speaking of heroic sacrifices, honorable mention to Adora's whole situation at the end being criticism of the whole concept, with her being conditioned to be self-sacrificing and only feeling worthy that way, feeling her own feelings and wants don't matter at all + how it can also be selfish to throw your life away without thinking about how the people who care about you will feel.

[@randomguy-tg7ok]

As far as I understand it, the story after Catra's Heroic Sacrifice is the MC (Adora) going "Okay. How do we undo this sacrifice?" and then proceeding to do that - after which Catra has a minor freak-out over actually having to have a proper redemption arc. Is that about right?

[@lordpessimism]

Shadow Weaver's final words may have been "you're welcome", but what she actually said was "you ungrateful children, look what you made me do". She doesn't get a heroic redemption because she doesn't *want* to be redeemed.

[@michaelzjwanko3680]

I was literally just thinking about She-Ra and Shadow Weaver (since she's my favorite character) and usually I don't like it when a villain who supposed to be redeemed just dies from heroic sacrifice or from some random blast in the leg. Not because I don't believe it's redeem somebody but because it's just too easy! Redemption is a about working on yourself no matter how badly you messed up and killing yourself just because you "have come too far" is a weaklings way. BUT! Weaver is one of the examples when I like this "villainous heroic sacrifice" because it's suppose to be contrast to actual redemption way of Catra and Hordak. You can't even say if her sacrifice was necessary. I think Weaver's problem is a lack of self-worth - she just need somebody to influence, to teach, to control. And when she's run out of people to be controled - she just doesn't see value in her own life anymore and decide to die because it's the only thing she can do to influence somebody. Honestly, she should just try start a new life apart from Katra, Adora and etc. But she ends as she lived - trying to influence somebody. It's just sad, respectable and pathetic at the same time

[@idkwhattoputhere853]

honestly one of my favorite subvariants of this trope is characters who attempt a heroic sacrifice partially so they can get out of dealing with the consequences of their actions only to survive in the end and be forced to reckon with what they did and rebuild themselves from the ground up. its just so much fun to watch someone learn how to actually work on themselves and find something worth living for after such a big climactic moment, lol

[@Moodyman90]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." When said by somebody sacrificing themselves, heroic. When said by somebody sacrificing others, selfish, horrible and cowardly.

[@leithaziz2716]

The difference between Spock in Star Trek and Sentinel Prime in Transformers Dark Of The Moon.

[@chloej1611]

I WAS WAITING FOR THE INCLUSION OF THE END OF TIME! The Doctor's sacrifice works so well here. Far from being selfish, it's _incredibly_ _selfless_ because it's immediately juxtaposed by his actions in Waters of Mars, where he saved the "big people" to fuel his own ego. By choosing to save someone as insignificant as Wilfred, he is acknowledging his past mistake, acknowledging that everyone, _especially_ Wilfred, is invaluable and important to _someone_ out there, and that even he, someone who could do so much more for humanity, is no more special than Wilfred. He's finally stepping down from the high horse he'd been riding since Day 1. It works so perfectly as a conclusion to his arc. It hits the selflessness button. It hits the bravery button. It's not particularly mighty, but that's kinda the point. Most of what the Doctor does is grandiose and epic (contrast with Torchwood). This sacrifice won't be remembered by anyone except Donna's mom and won't save anyone more than a man already close to the end of his life. In the grand scheme of things, it's nothing. But that is exactly the point. If he operated only on the scale of what matters in the long term, he'd very very rapidly lose his morals, lose what makes him the Doctor, and probably not even care about humanity in the first place. What makes him the Doctor is the value he places in individual human lives, because saving everyone is impossible. The flow of time is inevitable. Fixed points will happen. People will die. The Doctor chooses to suffer so that Wilfred can die peacefully with his family rather than bringing his corpse back to the Nobles. AND we know that he isn't _actually_ depriving the world of the Doctor just yet cuz we know he has two more regenerations (until they did the War Doctor thing and then gave him infinite regenerations, but let's be real, he was gonna get more regenerations eventually).

[@Bobb11881]

I don't think he did it for his ego. I think that was just a side effect. In my view, him saving those people on Mars _was_ the morally right thing to do. Like Red said, sacrificing other people for the greater good isn't necessarily heroic. Time said they had to die, but the Doctor's morals weren't about to let that happen. And what really changed? History still went mostly as it was supposed to, and two more people were alive to see it. The only thing he did wrong was not doing it sooner.

[@themindstream]

It's true that the Doctor in the Waters of Mars started power tripping, but I think what makes that episode the most tragic is that it marks a point where the pain of maybe being able to save people and being prevented from doing so _broke_ him. He was isolated at that point, grieving over the effective loss of Donna, of the would-be companion lost to him in the prior special (whose name I don't remember and the story impact was mostly of one more bit of guilt to lay on himself), of having to give up Rose, of the loss of his homeworld and people in the Time War (still another lifetime away from hitting that particular reset button). I don't think it's fair to say it was "just" to fuel is own ego, it's that landing on _that_ planet at _that_ time and living through _that_ disaster on top of everything else caused him to snap.

[@xl9079]

Water of Mars wasn't just fueled by Ego though that ties into it. It was the Doctor's desire to escape pain coming to its logical conclusion. No more companions because they break his heart? That means there's no external voice to help him moderate his difficulty stomaching injustice. Therefore why should he be hurt having to let terrible things happen to good people for something as nebulous as History.

[@GermanLeftist]

And now compare it to the end of The Caves of Androzani, in which the Doctor sacrifices himself for Peri, not even knowing they'll regenerate, going so far as asking "is this death" once the regeneration starts. There is no complaining, no wallowing in self-pity, there's no one there to remember his sacrifice because even Peri is unconscious and the Doctor cannot be totally certain that the antidote he gave her will work. He just does what he has to do to save another life, the life of his companion. The Tenth Doctor in The End of Time has to be reminded what it means to be the Doctor. RTD, deliberately, made this incarnation a pompous, self-rightous ass, who saw himself as the ultimate moral authority in the universe. Not even the Third, Fourth and Sixth Doctor were ever as arrogant as the Tenth Doctor could be at times. Now, you can like this or not - I don't - but this one scene is the entire character arc of the Tenth Doctor coming to its conclusion. Or it should have been, because RTD couldn't help himself and had to write in an "I don't want to go" just at the start of the regeneration. Instead of this incarnation finally coming to the realisation that he was on the verge of not being the Doctor anymore due to his actions and then doing his big, way too long drawn out farewell tour (after we had just said goodbye to all of these characters in the last series finale), then being able to let go and just regenerate, maybe even have some wise passing words, he has to fall back into the same arrogant pattern of "I'm the best".

[@alexanderguerrero347]

But it's undone since 14 is 10 even meets Wilfred again

[@Existential_Tempest]

'In his last moments, Matoro feels no fear. He knows that he has succeeded - the Toa Mahri are safe, able to resume their lives in Metru Nui. The Turaga and Matoran will know that they became true heroes. Matoro does not see himself as a hero. As a Matoran, as a Toa Inika, and as a Toa Mahri, all he ever tried to do was his Duty. Now, his Duty has led him to his Destiny.'

[@David-dz1cb]

Greg Farshety, folks- one of the most underappreciated writers of our time.

[@l30ng62]

Bionicle appreciation lets go!

[@vladimirpriner1554]

What I love about that whole part of the story is that, in that same moment, the rest of the Mahri were sacrificing themselves to buy Matoro some extra time (and it sometimes feels underapriciated in the community)

[@BW-CZ]

​@@vladimirpriner1554 I like Matoro just like everyone, but my boy Jaller? That's my "main" hero

[@sinisternorimaki]

​@@l30ng62Are you telling me that's from freaking Lego?

[@ShawnHCorey]

The thing about the trolley problem is that it's a no-win situation. No matter what you do, someone is going to die and you'll get blamed for it. It is important to remember that you didn't create the situation and are not responsible for the outcome regardless of what others think.

[@Krixwell]

I think people forget sometimes that the original purpose of the trolley problem wasn't "is it better to let X or Y happen", but "if you change an outcome for the better overall, but this better outcome causes harm to someone who would otherwise be unharmed, are you morally responsible for that harm".

[@jemolk8945]

@@Krixwell That, and also, are you _more_ responsible for that harm than you would have been for the harm that you could have prevented and chose not to if you had chosen inaction instead?

[@benjaminrawls5479]

Which is why I always say the correct answer is doing proper infrastructure maintenance before the trolly problem occurs.

[@jemolk8945]

@@benjaminrawls5479 You're not wrong, but this is a thought experiment that people are asked to puzzle through to see which bad choice they're more willing to make/excuse, not advice for a real-world scenario.

[@benjaminrawls5479]

@@jemolk8945 I mean yes but I’ve been asked to give an answer to the trolly problem by enough folks that are trying to use it as a dumb gotcha that it’s worth while to have a snarky response on hand. Also even in ideal circumstances I still feel it’s good for about five minutes of introspection before moving on from your first interaction with moral philosophy. Which is far from worthless but not that big a deal.

[@trumediamix1]

*_"Thank you, my friend... I'll take it from here."_* ● the final words of Toa Matoro as he spirited away his own from certain doom _BIONICLE_ - "Death of a Hero"

[@Bysthedragon]

Matoro never thought he was worthy of being a hero; He kept too many secrets from his friends, felt isolated from everyone, felt he brought nothing of use to the team among so many greats, and worked with the greatest evil in their universe. In the end he proved why he was always worthy of being a Hero "Already, I can barely remember how it felt to be in battle - or to be lonely - or to feel pain or joy or sadness. I'm going beyond all that now. Yet I remember my friends. The mask lets me see what is happening to them. The Toa Mahri are doomed, and there is nothing a Toa of Ice can do to save them. But I am no longer just a Toa. I am the Mask of Life and it is me. And while I still live, I will use its power... my friends will not die!"

[@lizerdspherex]

A hero amongst heroes no matter the universe.

[@elizabethshaw7472]

I wish I had more like buttons for this.

[@Matau228]

I always liked that no matter if the odds were in their favor, no matter how sure they would win, it's clear that the Toa were always at least a little afraid going into their fights or confrontations. But Matoro felt no fear.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

I love few things more than seeing a randomly seeing a Bionicle reference in the most unlikely of places. That's what true heroes are made of!

[@cfsfilms5091]

That bit at the end reminds me of how the second arc in Steven Universe's 5th season is Steven having to reckon with the fact that his sacrifice at the end of the 4th season was incredibly stressful for his friends and family, and despite it feeling like he did the right thing, he seriously hurt them by intentionally throwing his life away to save them; Consequences he never considered or expected to have to deal with cause he thought Homeworld was probably going to kill him. I remember those episodes being kinda slow, but looking back, I think it's an interesting thing to explore, and I'm glad they did.

[@PureGoldNeverCorrodes]

All this talk of Trolley Problems is why Tobey Maguire’s 1st Spider-man movie is still one of my favourite Superhero movies ever. Goblin presents him with a Trolley Problem (or Cablecar Problem) and he saves both; hits him with a “I reject your Premise”.

[@matityaloran9157]

Agreed

[@seanrush3723]

Godzilla minus 1 did a great job playing with this trope. Not only regarding the internal ideals of self sacrifice but the way society views it as well. It's a guilty pleasure watching people see the movie and it always bugs me when they see Shikishima as kind if a coward. Felt like a whole bunch of people didn't pick up on the theme of self sacrifice not being an inherently moral thing. Also, Doc's speech about no one dieing for the cause. . . Ugh. so good

[@mirandatilley2486]

It's also worth noting that the two people who think Shikishima should've sacrificed himself during the war do a complete 180 by the end of the movie, showing that their view of what he should've done initially was societal expectation and a projection of their unhealed grief.

[@umapessoa240]

@@mirandatilley2486been a minute since I watched it, but if I recall correctly his neighbor who was giving him shit for not dying in the war has a horrified look on her face when she puts together that he went to do just that and some of the blame is on her

[@mirandatilley2486]

@umapessoa240 I don't know if that was the specific intention, but that's a valid interpretation of the scene to me.

[@Braxgar]

As a kid heroic sacrifice was probably one of my favorite tropes. Whichever toy got assigned the role of hero from my beanie baby dog to my Apocalypse action figure would inevitably get beaten by the villain, get back up and beat the villain then die. Thankfully Ketchup packets weren't involved.

[@claran3616]

Beanie baby dog was an honorable soldier and will be remembered.

[@valdonchev7296]

I just so happened to be thinking about how soldiers at the lowest rank in every setting are effectively people trained to make heroic sacrifices en mass - they are often in grave danger, their sacrifice rarely makes them famous or wealthy, and while they often do not have the might of protagonists, they are equipped and trained with the purpose of making them stronger. I've always rooted for the large army of background extras to have a tangible impact in any given fight, fond of the idea that they can overcome their lack of individual might with scale, quantity being its own quality. However, the price of this scale is the scale of their collective heroic sacrifice, a scale far greater than the individual hero, and yet rarely the focus of most stories for reasons mentioned in other Trope Talks.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Yep

[@jordanleighton6893]

Good soup

[@AegixDrakan]

oooooh, I`m taking notes, that`s a really, *really* good bit of food for thought

[@janisir4529]

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD DID! I feel like this belongs here.

[@randomsquidproductions4061]

I think the war boys from Fury Road are a great example of this

[@Caterfree10]

“Just because I would make a different decision doesn’t mean Superman needs to.” I need this plastered whenever any character, especially morally grey ones, makes controversial decisions. Like, I know this is in relation to heroic decisions, but it applies to SO MUCH tbqh. And tbh, it’s also a thing I struggled with. When I got to the end of The Last of Us (the video game as not even the sequel game was announced at the time), I was upset at Joel for the very rough decision he made, and was upset he did something I absolutely would never. I think it did take until the HBO series until it finally clicked for me - there was no other choice for Joel, no other choice meshed with his character arc. He’s a selfish man. Didn’t make those actions right, but they were consistent with his character and that is good writing, even if he ended up the architect of his own later demise because of those actions. On another note, I am kind of tired of heroic sacrifice as death equals redemption. It was fine enough for Vader (and other material shows that not everyone forgave him, Leia being a BIG one for that), but seeing it come up over and over again is exhausting. I want the heroes to live long enough to know the future will be fine, even if the garden they sow will never complete in their lifetime, and I want villains with regret to work towards atonement in some form. Those are vastly more interesting to me nowadays.

[@Duiker36]

At least Frodo got to know.

[@thereallocke8065]

Another often overlooked part of the heroic sacrifice is ensuring that the sacrifice is actually worth it. If you jump in front of the bullet what's stopping the guy from shooting again? You do see this when characters end up becoming self destructive or have some kind of hero complex. Gotta sacrifice myself even if it's not going to actually help

[@christinesinclair6938]

Last time I was this early, there was still an Alderaan.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

The last time I was, Havoc Squad were about to launch their heroic sacrifice against Malgus and the Sith Empire...

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Sorry, I was trying to get there in time...

[@dylandarnell3657]

Re: personal favorite heroic sacrifices, I immediately thought of Darth Vader's death. Which, on reflection, is kind of an inversion of the standard form, and not just because Darth Vader is one of the most iconic villains of all time. Of the 3 common forms you listed, the closest match is "taking the bullet" (since the thing that kills him is drawing aggro from Luke). But "taking the bullet" suggests an act rooted in the virtue structure of passivity and pacifism, one that endangers only the person doing it (and does so not by adding violence to the situation, but by shifting the target of already-present violence). Vader didn't throw himself in front of Palpatine's lightning, he walked up to Palpatine and started murdering him. Probably some implications about the common conventions of "heroism" to unpack here.

[@David-dz1cb]

He both gets revenge, and saves his son- and while Anakin becomes part of the Light at last, Vader is not easily forgiven or forgotten. And that's pretty cool.

[@hauntedwafflecake]

In that sense, I kinda like the whole "become the villain to save the world" trope, in which someone commits absolutely unforgivable acts but with the ultimate goal of preventing a much larger tragedy. It can have different takes depending on whether said tragedy is inevitable if nobody does anything to actively stop it; if there's any other possible way of going about ir or, as far anyone knows, that's all they got; whether the villain is the only one aware of what's going on and are okay with being painted as just a villain so nobody else has to even find out they're all screwed; whether the tragedy will be in the somewhat distant future and it becomes more of a "should we let ppl from the future get fucked so we don't have to do anything now" scenario; how much the villain struggles to go through with it even if they're convinced it absolutely needs to be done etc

[@JoeGrzzly]

There's definitely a lot to unpack with the heroic implications question in the original trilogy of Star Wars, since everyone in the struggle between the Empire and the Rebellion are willing to kill for their vision of the greater good. Han, Leia, and Chewie shoot numerous armored soldiers through the series. Both Luke and Han use their armored flying war vehicles to destroy other armored flying war vehicles, one of which is an armored flying war planet (intentionally not using the word spaceship in order to catch the right tone). And even if you strip away the guns and vehicles that provide a layer of separation, Luke uses the force to suffocate Gamorrians. The newly trained paragon of the universe's energy manifests that power of life to snuff out another. The only person who is not shown willing to kill for their ideals in the original movie is Ben Kenobi, the last practitioner of the Jedi ways on a planet that has other people. He has religious ideals that he holds by only using diversions to navigate perilous situations. The worst crime Ben commits is mutilation to disarm a threat, in a universe where fully functioning automated prosthetics exist, so it's even more justifiable to chop off the arm of a guy that drew a gun. It's a gritty dark world to survive in, and the only one doing a pacifist run while interacting with other sentients is Ben. So the fact that Darth Vader's heroic sacrifice involved killing says more about the Star Wars universe at the time than it does about Anakin's morals.

[@vermilionrubin]

@@hauntedwafflecake I recommend Mahou Sensei Negima manga

[@lahnhedberg3403]

I love the heroic sacrifice when a story rejects the idea of people having to sacrifice themselves. Instead of stopping at a door to halt the enemy for a few moments, run with them but at the back. A pilot crashing themselves into something but ejecting right before. The message of it alright to simply live I love.

[@harmonlanager2670]

Godzilla Minus One did this and made me bawl like a child lol

[@sonofjack6286]

​@@harmonlanager2670 Yeah, I was so worried Shikishima had died in that scene. I was so glad that he used the ejection seat.

[@seanrush3723]

Damn it, I failed to scroll far enough before making a similar point via minus one. 😂

[@leithaziz2716]

The Yakuza/Like a Dragon series in an interesting exploration of how its main character, Kazuma Kiryu, constantly acts brave and selflessly puts himself at risk for his family and friend. But his family don't WANT him to put himself at risk because they value his existence. It gets Kiryu to starting pondering if he has the right to throw away his life so recklessly in the later games when it means hurting everyone around him who will miss him.

[@purplehaze2358]

"In fact, some stories will highlight characters' willingness to sacrifice themselves as being indicative of a general lack of self worth." In Bionicle, Matoro literally atomized himself to resurrect God because he thought, of the Toa Mahri, he'd be the one the world would miss the least.

[@vladimirpriner1554]

I didn't get from the text, that he was willing to sacrifice himself, because he lacked self worth, it felt more like general selflessness and putting others needs before himself. But now that I think about it, these feelings aren't mutually exclusive, are they?

[@MariaVosa]

Thank you for pointing out that saying Batman is somehow at fault for not killing Joker is dumb. He is a vigilante in so much as he works as a detective and a police outside the law - but only in order to bring the villains to Justice. It is then up to the justice system to decide if they are guilty (Batman doesn't have his own prison) and the Law decides whether the sentence is death or not (Batman doesn't sentence them or carries out the punishment).

[@matityaloran9157]

That works for some iterations of Batman but not for others. Ben Affleck’s Batman has zero qualms about lethal violence so it makes absolutely no sense at all that he hasn’t killed The Joker. And Batman objecting to Damien Wayne seemingly killing The Dollmaker in Batman vs Robin was just dumb

[@krspaceT1]

Especially if some edgy ex dead guy had Joker at his mercy he could have shot himself...

[@OddyOddity-ob2uv]

Shoutout to The Hollow Knight, through its sacrifice Hallownest stands eternal.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

with how long Team Cherry is taking to give us SilkSong... yeah, it might as well be eternal

[@sechran]

"We were out of waffles." Okay, there it is - the go to answer to this question, above and beyond all context.

[@peepopopo7140]

It's been awhile since I've seen Fairy Tail, but there was one episode, near the end of a harrowing story arc, where the awesome and badass Erza almost did a heroic sacrifice. But then she had a vision of all her friends devastated at her funeral, which gave her the extra push to try and save herself too, which she did. I think she said something like, "You can't just die for your friends, you have to live for them." I still think about it. As much as we like to romanticize the heroic sacrifice, most of the time in your everyday life, you're just gonna doing boring stuff. What makes life worthwhile is your loved ones. Live for them

[@artofthepossible7329]

Fairy Tail is weird with this trope. And whatever you call the main overarching villain's backstory.

[@AnonEcho98]

A fellow FT GOAT, feels good. And yeah, dying for others? Sure, can be romanticized to hell and back, but... dying is easy, it's just you shrugging off responsibility. Living for them is much, much harder, fighting for every second you get to spend with them.

[@SuperboyLilly]

Meh, I dropped Fairy Tail a LONG time ago; there were no stakes, and everyone kept getting BS "friendship is magic" powerups.

[@AnonEcho98]

@@SuperboyLilly Whilst I don't fault you on that first part, I would like to ask which moment ya mean? 'Cause that hasn't ever really been a thing, without getting properly explained, or being more of a driving motivator, someone giving their all for their friends and family. Also, literally from the beginning told how emotions do tie into magic, especially more ancient magic.

[@SuperboyLilly]

@@AnonEcho98 Althroughout the show, even with the weaker ones, characters kept getting powerups during fights they shouldn't have won. I dropped it on the arc where Natsu was able to pull God Slayer magic out of his ass.

[@KyleRayner12]

I'm greatly enjoying the channel's increasing shift towards philosophical deconstructions of tropes.

[@scatterbrain8764]

One heroic sacrifice that will always stick with me is Dinobot from Beast Wars: Transformers. He fought tooth and nail against the entire Predacon army to save humanity from extinction, and ultimately succeeded, but at the cost of his own life. What gets me more than his death and the Maximals' reaction to it though (especially Rattrap's), is the fact that he made a hammer with a twig and a rock to fight with as he gradually lost his weapon energy. Later on, we see an early human using that same hammer to crack coconuts and fight off predators. Dinobot's sacrifice not only saved the human race, but it gave them the tools they needed to thrive.

[@15oClock]

And sometimes, you get a Fallout 3 situation where the author is bending logic for the heroic sacrifice to occur.

[@Phantom86d]

That gets negated by the DLC so I can sacrifice myself and then go attack the Enclave. Double heroism!

[@daviddaugherty2816]

Hey, sometimes you just wanna take a break from shamelessly ripping off Fallout 2 to shamelessly rip off Wrath of Khan. We've all been there.

[@templarw20]

See also: the destruction of the Pegasus in BSG S3.

[@Bobb11881]

Or Age of Ultron.

[@rocky-nm5wf]

@@daviddaugherty2816 To be fair, Fallout 2 ripped off Fallout 1 as well as a bunch of other things

[@theshig9618]

I am SO. GLAD. You used that scene of the 10th Doctor, cause it was the FIRST thing I thought of when you mentioned the cost being "All the good the hero COULD do in the future".

[@njivwathomassilavwe2056]

Baymax in Big Hero 6 just heartbreaking out here

[@brianpembrook9164]

That wasn't a sacrifice. It seemed like one but the robot was being obtuse as only a robot could.

[@QuantumWaltz]

@@brianpembrook9164 Whether Baymax had thought it out in those precise terms or not, it was a sacrifice, even if it was one that gave him a chance of survival. He didn't really know whether he could be rebuilt. There's a lot of things that can go wrong with an exposed motherboard, and Hiro might have been unable to precisely restore Baymax to Tadashi's specifications (as unlikely as that would be, with Hiro a robotics genius and Tadashi likely taking copious design notes because he was in COLLEGE and logically would have wanted to use Baymax as a portfolio builder as well as the prototype for his vision of the future.) Was it a pretty safe bet? Sure. But it was a risk. Not really any different from any of the "I'll hold them off" [survives the fight to show up later]-type sacrifices.

[@IridescentFalcon72]

I love this so much, especially your point at the end about fiction not being an exercise morality but something interesting to chew on. Spot on, I think it's much more fun to analyze what something says about the character than trying to make sure they are morally pure all the time according to irl logic

[@meekaboo_]

I was waiting for that trigun! This trope can be so wonderfully juicy, especially in a story with low-main character death counts. But to me it's also one of the most frustrating when done poorly or in a way I don't like. I want it to hurt, and the pain should directly correlate with the quantity and quality of the angsty fanart centered on the character's sacrifice, lol.

[@derekskelton4187]

I really love that in the Star Wars expanded universe Leia never forgives Vader. This sticks in the old time line and the new. He may be her dad, but she sees him as a monster regardless of the sacrifice

[@my_girl_seraphine5294]

As she should

[@phastinemoon]

It was heart wrenching in the Legends EU. It was HARROWING in the Disney EU books - because Vader’s shadow still looms over the galaxy for so, so much longer. I remember reading “Bloodline” and just feeling like I was watching an Ari Aster movie as the scene came out.

[@Duiker36]

For Luke, Vader's redemption was the most important thing he ever did. He forever became "the guy who redeemed Vader", primarily to himself. For Leia, it was just a milestone on the way to actually fixing the goddamn galaxy. Important, sure, but not defining.

[@armedweiss5531]

Let's not forget that Vader worked for the very empire that blew up her home planet. Yeah I'd say that alone is a justifiable reason to not forgive someone even with a heroic sacrifice in play

[@SuperboyLilly]

Actually, Leia does forgive Vader; she found and read Schmee's diary, learning more about her father.

[@KensaiProductions]

It's like the Sunrise speech in Andor, he knows he won't see the benefits of the actions he's taking but takes them anyway.

[@maseface7225]

0:28 Red, your Zelda fan is showing

[@subtlegong2817]

Bravery is a synonym for courage and might is kinda a synonym for power but sacrifice is not always wise. You may have to be wise to put the needs of others ahead of your own, though if done impulsively it may be a sign of a lack of self worth, but wisdom has a lot more facets than that

[@enigmatic2878]

​@@subtlegong2817someone in the comments mention that Red also used the colors of the triforce. Since courage and power already fit in quite well, there's only one spot left for wisdom whether it fits or not

[@DefinitelyAPerson32]

Selflessness isn’t necessarily wisdom, but Zelda is definitely selfless, so it fits in that way

[@Kestas_X]

God damnit

[@Fai2006]

​@@DefinitelyAPerson32 real yeah, I was about to say this, bc the triforces other connotations (fire/ice/electricity) also don't really have anything to do with courage, might, and wisdom.

[@lahlybird895]

13:47 can we please all internalized this line here

[@joshallen1134]

Stopped me dead in my tracks with this one. Such an excellent take

[@lahlybird895]

@@joshallen1134 I need to turn it into a T-shirt and also brought it out to a few other categories Stories are not ethical optimization exercises, or moral guidelines, are perfect educational tools, or representation icons, for your personal story and lived experiences brought to life! They are scenarios for your brain to chew on, and what matters is that they're interesting! So if we could all please stop shiting on authors and stories just because we don't personally identify with the protagonist or because some character does something slightly negative or because we don't like certain character skin tones, the authors hard work and the flow of the story and the effectiveness of the narrative we would all have a much better time!

[@pip4700]

I really like the way this trope was explained because it gets to the heart of why some heroic sacrifices just don’t work for me personally. I’d never thought too deeply about it, but the example of Superman giving up his powers after having done a necessary thing really helped hammer it home for me. I remember reading that comic for a college class and being kind of soured at the idea that Superman just kind of gave up the responsibility of being Superman because he did something only Superman could’ve realistically done in that moment. It felt like an avoidance of responsibility misattributed to shame over having done something subjectively unforgivable. At least to me! But you bringing up how these kinds of sacrifices tie in with self-respect made me reevaluate that. It might suck that Clark gave up his powers, but it’s true that no one has a right to dictate the values of another. Same thing with Batman and killing the joker in any circumstance. Abiding by their morals in that way may be selfish in some ways, but it also isn’t fair to force the responsibility of killing onto them (though in Superman’s case he faces people who only he can really kill at times). You’re right about there not being a clean answer because at the same time with those two examples, wouldn’t they be able to see the damage those villains continue to do? Wouldn’t it be a heroic sacrifice to set those morals aside, and do the difficult thing in the face of a system not being able to? I dunno! Super cool video, every one of these makes me wanna draw a comic and explore these ideas for myself

[@vianabdullah2837]

A related trope to this which I despise is when a heroic sacrifice is made by a side character with the purpose of defeating the main villain, but it inevitably fails because the story needs the protagonist to come out on top. It just makes it feel like a character was wasted and the supporting cast doesn't really matter.

[@Center-For-I.E.D.Mismanagement]

Just like DragonBall, Z, GT and Super.

[@zehern22]

Literally Street Fighter V's story mode.

[@leithaziz2716]

Nash in Street Fighter V. Jesus, what a mess of a story. I like that one of Vegeta's most iconic character defining moments is sacrificing himself for his family to stop Buu, and Buu...is still around. Way to suck the impact of that sarcifice, guys.

[@nimnimn6930]

I think you can make it work if it feels like it had sufficient impact i.e. delays the villain's plans significantly or opens the opportunity for the hero to succeed, but those require feeling like those things sufficiently matter and are coming from this character, so it quite often gets undercut by the villain trampling over what they've done just to seem at their most powerful at the climax or if it feels like the plot would have gone that way even without that sacrifice.

[@EllipticalReasoning]

A subversion of this was in the finale of Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, when it looks like this is happening and the villains are gloating as usual, but they quickly lose their composure as they get buried under the unexpectedly large number of narratively-weighty supporting characters pulling sacrifice plays.

[@lckaboom6810]

The ending of Persona 3 is probably the most painful heroic sacrifice I’ve ever seen because the entire game is spent building up everything that stands to be lost.

[@SnivyatE3]

I WAS LOOKING FOR THE P3 COMMENT that shit hurted

[@artofthepossible7329]

Bonus points for the game's complete and utter unsubtlety about the whole thing.

[@SomeAsian]

The 10/4 incident is a great example too IMO.

[@Duiker36]

忘れない いつまでも 決して until my life is exhausted.

[@everest5718]

I saw this and immediately thought of Optimus Prime - he dies in almost everything he’s in and it’s never out of character because he’s just that kind of character. Optimus’ selflessness is one of his defining traits, so it makes sense (even if it’s funny when you realize how often he dies or almost dies).

[@Hjernespreng]

THANK YOU for the point about Gotham's legal system! I feel like I'm going crazy seeing how many people normalize the idea that Gotham's justice system and prison safety is supposed to be Batman's responsibility! The joker has PLOT ARMOR! Far more than batman himself.

[@Mechawizard]

"This country has treated life far too cheaply. Poorly armored tanks. Poor supply chains resulting in half of all deaths from starvation and disease. Fighter planes built without ejection seats and finally, kamikaze and suicide attacks. That's why this time I'd take pride in a civilian-led effort that sacrifices no lives at all! This next battle is not one waged to the death, but a battle to live for the future!" -Godzilla Minus One

[@sydhenderson6753]

I often think that was the best movie of 2023 and deserved more Oscar nominations.

[@leithaziz2716]

Your proof that Godzilla is a franchise that can embrace both its silly and serious nature.

[@CleverFoxStudios]

Oh boy lemme see.... Yue becoming the moon in ATLA felt pretty heroic in a way, even if it wasn't super dramatic Someone already mentioned Shadoweaver somewhere Recently rewatched Justice League and the season 2 "batman tries to crash the watch tower into the alien construct" was a pretty cool scene even if Sups did manage to save him at the last moment There's also one i remember from The Ranger's Apprentice, book 1, when Will finally hears about his father from Halt. Will had a mental image of a knight in armor felling foes in battle all his life but the more sobering account ny Halt was that Will's father was not a knight, but a regular army man, yet that did not diminish his heroism because yes, he died, having taken many blows yet never stopping. He died fighting insurmountable odds of monsters to protect Halt, and while he was not skilled he slew so many beasts that they were driven back enough for Halt to eacape. Halt claims he felt it was "the first blow that killed him" at the end and that just made the whole thing stay with me for years. His name was not known, he was not famous for his act, but it that's not what it was about. I fucking love that series

[@battyrae1398]

RANGER'S APPRENTICE MENTION!!!!

[@marsbars6489]

"stories aren't ethical optimizations, they're scenarios for your brain to chew on" need everyone in the world to understand this NOW

[@dragonlordex]

8:30 - YES. THANK YOU. I have seen this dumb argument brought up so, so, so so so so SO many damned times! And I keep saying 'It is not Batman's responsibility'. Not his fault the authorities won't give the guy the death penalty, or that they keep letting him escape. If the law has decided that the Joker is not to be executed, it is not Batman's place to go 'I decide who gets to live and who gets to die'.

[@ExeloMinish]

It is an interesting case of narrative dissonance. The entire superhero (especially non-powered superheroes) concept relies heavily on established peacekeeping structures being incompetent and/or corrupt, as if they are not then the guy in the bat costume is fundamentally useless and the guy dressed like a clown is not escaping. So it's almost natural to put the entire responsability on Batman's shoulders, because the police and the government are _expected_ to not be doing their job and thus easy to write off as a non-factor.

[@krspaceT1]

Honestly you can make them work but you also need to let the status auo change and editor in chiefs hate that as much as marriage

[@colinwilliams8811]

I’m sad to see you didn’t mention what I feel is the most extreme example that I can think of, at the very least. Lelouch from the ending of Code Geass, ignoring the subsequent movies of course. That was a sacrifice that was set up on countless levels, the death of his character, his image, his person, and himself. And at the end of it all, it works, bringing about that peace that he’s sought for so long. The ending montage of him saying “Those who kill must be prepared to die” along with the entire world celebrating his death, paired with his younger sister finally realizing his intentions and weeping over his body. It still gives me chills to this day. In my opinion it highlights some aspect of everything you mentioned, as Lelouch at his core is a selfish character. As he dies, his sister says all she needed to be happy was to live with him, but he didn’t care about what she wanted, he became obsessed with the need to reforge the world, and used her name as his justification. Thats all I had, great video as always!

[@Wolfeson28]

2:01 That last bit immediately got me chuckling over a planeful of people wondering why Superman has gone from saving them to suddenly passing out and plummeting to the ground, while that one guy in 18F is thinking "dammit, I knew I should've FedExed that."🤣🤣

[@Rocksteady72a]

Video: Heroic Sacrifices Thumbnail: Gandalf stealing the D&D party's XP to get a massive level up

[@masterdynamo6457]

I think my favorite example of the heroic taking-the-bullet NOT having the tearful farewell afterwards comes from...How to Train Your Dragon 2. It's a movie series where, up to that point, NO ONE named has died. Spoilers ahead for a ten-year-old movie if you care. When Stoick leaps between Toothless and Hiccup, taking the plasma blast meant for his son, we have a few things going on. Toothless is mind-controlled by the Alpha. Hiccup has faith that his steed/pet/best friend is capable of overcoming the mind control and not, you know, killing him. And Stoick sees that his son is about to get blasted to Valhalla by a dragon. So he puts himself in harm's way and takes the hit. And he's dead. Just like that. Gone. There's no farewell, there's no 'rest easy in the knowledge that my son is safe', there's no time to say goodbye. It's just, Toothless is about to kill Hiccup, and Stoick puts himself in the way, never to find out if he actually succeeded in saving his son. And Hiccup is left to pick up the pieces. It's so unbelievably powerful precisely because it leaves all those things unresolved. Like in real life. I tell you, watching that movie at a formative age was really something, and I made absolutely certain to tell my parents I loved them every day for like two years. I still do, but it's no longer a conscious effort.

[@MrTheRandomBucket]

Another requirement for a heroic sacrifice working, is that it needs to make sense. For example, Quicksilver's death in Age of Ultron feels unsatisfying to a lot of people specifically because it feels like he didn't need to die. In the case where the character could reasonably choose some other path than heroically sacrificing themselves, it undercuts the emotion of the scene by making the audience wonder why the character didn't do the obvious better solution.

[@chrisrudolf9839]

True, this is the problem I have with most if not all of the LITERAL take a bullet for someone else scenarios. Not only has that particular form of the trope been done to death (pun intended), so that it comes across as cheesy, it also most of the times just seems unnecessary, because instead of jumping in front of the target person to shield them with your own body, the hero could just as easily push the other person out of harm's way. (Not to mention that depending on the kind of weapon and projectile, there even might be a considerable risk that the bullet pierces through the hero's body and still hits the person behind them). The trope can still work if they set the situation up convincingly so that better rescue options aren't obviously available, but most of the time when the literal "catch a bullet" trope is used, they don't set up anything like that and expect the audience to just be into the drama and not question the logic.

[@Kartoffelkamm]

Another example: General Ironwood from RWBY. Like, every single sacrifice he made, or that he forced onto others and then claimed for himself, was entirely unnecessary and among the worst decision he could've made in that particular situation.

[@Bookconsumer]

​@@Kartoffelkammto be fair, I think that's what Rooster teeth were going for.

[@cephery8482]

In this case i feel it loses it’s ‘heroism’ cause it loses the might aspect. If he could do more and didnt its a whole lot less impressive.

[@rockincradilyyyy8489]

@chrisrudolf9839 My favorite “taking a bullet” scene is in one piece, because it isn’t actually a sacrifice. Luffy jumps in the way of a bunch of bullets to stop Zoro from getting executed (Zoro, who he just met btw, also very characterizing) but they just kind of… stretch back… and I am pretty sure Luffy knew this. It’s less a sacrifice and more “of course he’s immune it bullets”

[@Skip6235]

I was playing a DnD campaign where my character heroically sacrificed themselves to get the rest of the party out of what absolutely would have resulted in a TPK. It then became a really strange improv/role play exercise when my replacement character had to interact with a party that was grieving someone they had never met, but was also me. 😅

[@BB_Creative]

This is why I love Deku from MHA. I love that not only is he willing to make the sacrifice’s but I also love that OTHER PEOPLE call him out on it. I’m gonna use Aizawa for this example. Aizawa notices from the very beginning that Deku is willing to do whatever it takes to be the best hero. Which is a noble thing but Aizawa also points out he can’t do that if he purposely keeps getting hurt because you can’t be a hero is you keep endangering yourself like that. Aizawa keeps calling out Deku for his recklessness and how he NEEDS to be okay with asking for help. Deku is a good hero but it’s not a good thing to Aizawa because has to keep pushing for Deku to think of himself. It’s probably the reason why they’re dynamic the most. Aizawa is an amazing teacher by teaching his students and holding them accountable so they can learn from their mistakes.

[@cjstanky]

Hits even harder after reading the Aizawa flashback in Vigilantes where he's on the otherside of a heroic sacrifice and knows what gets left in the wake of such an act. He's not just trying to protect Midoriya, but also the rest of the class from the trauma that sacrifice would bring. And as we see later Aizawa was on the money, even a nothlethal sacrifice hits the class so hard that they basically drop everything and begin to search to drag him back to UA by force, so if a nonlethal sacrifice shook them that badly, a lethal one might have shattered them.

[@BB_Creative]

@@cjstanky This too, it’s exactly why I love how Aizawa is written and we see he does care for his students in such a meaningful way.

[@krspaceT1]

I believe Izuku would do the sacrifices he did at the end. I would have not written it. ...to be fair that is in part because I would not have tried to save Shigaraki. He's a victim but also a villian. Izuku would, I would not.

[@MaddieThePancake]

My day is always better when I hear that crashing sound in the opening

[@AldoHacha]

x10

[@shadowscribe]

Glad you attacked the classic argument thrown at Batman and even touched on a big Superman one. Which got me thinking about the Supes quits moment in Superman 2. It definitely wasn't a heroic deed, but it was rooted in recognizing being a hero meant he had to put the rest of the world ahead of Lois and he didn't like that. Yes, immediately regretting it after the first jerk he ran into, is funny as hell. BUT there is also the read that being normal meant he didn't have the power to do anything about the smallest of asshats pushing people down because they can; he'd just have to live with it like the rest of rest, and he didn't like that a lot more.

[@ShinyGaara65]

Let us never forget World Anvil, who sacrificed their sponsorship spot for the sake of this Trope Talk.

[@TakariCritic]

Dinobot from Beast Wars had one of the best. I can still hear his "Override." In my head.

[@canpiv09]

"If we just see a tasteful shot of the other side of the door with the sound of weapons, it means they're TOTALLY still alive" Persona 5: sweats nervously

[@TheDuelManiacs]

Makes me think of Captain America from the First Avenger. Guy immediately clocks himself as the hero most willing to make a heroic sacrifice, and then survives to the end of the series because Tony yoinked it.

[@HappyBirthdayRoboto]

I only recently discovered this channel and love the content, especially the Trope Talks. :)

[@AegixDrakan]

Welcome to the OSP zone, where it`s all quality content, ALL the way down. :D

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

There are still new people arriving here? I'm so glad for you!

[@HappyBirthdayRoboto]

@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 Thanks, good content tends to attract people. :)

[@HappyBirthdayRoboto]

@@AegixDrakan Thanks

[@kozytime3232]

I'm sacrificing my lunch hour to stay near the wi-fi just to watch this :) Always love these trope discussions!

[@sethwick3218]

I would like to nominate the homeless man in train to busan. His sacrifice stood out to me the most because of how afraid he was of dying and yet he threw himself at the oncoming horde to save a mother and her little girl.

[@Isukatsmsh]

Your comments on the nature of villains performing heroic sacrifices reminds me of why i love King Dedede so much, as his heroic sacrifice at the end of Forgitten Land wasn't a last minute ass-pull, but the culmination of 30 years worth of character development.

[@aokhoinguyenang3992]

Sometime in kids shows they do cut away from the killing blow due to the rating. So it's hard to tell if the character is death or just waiting for a climatic return. Liki in Scooby Doo Mystery Inc, Hot Dog Water is really dead when they cut away from her being shot. Well, she returned when the timeline is reset

[@OrUptotheStars]

Did Jet just...die? You know, it was really unclear.

[@aokhoinguyenang3992]

@@OrUptotheStars To be honest, I was expecting he would return. But on the day of the Eclipse, he didn't show up, that's when I knew he was dead, because there is no way Jet would miss invading the Fire Nation

[@characookie241]

Excuse me what happens in mystery inc

[@aokhoinguyenang3992]

@@characookie241 Wait you haven't seen the ending? Spoiler Ahoy: Basically at the finale, the team & the bad guy race to find the Crystal Sarcophagus imprisoning an evil interdimensional entity. Hot Dog Water sacrifice herself to slow the bad guy down, the scene cut away right before the bad guy sh0t her. Eventually after passing thought every test, they reached the Sarcophagus but the bad guy also got there & free the entity. After that the team destroyed the entity. But because the entity is a being beyond time, its death also erased all its influence on the world across time & resetting the timeline to a world where it never existed, thus Hot Dog Water is alive again

[@characookie241]

@@aokhoinguyenang3992 I gotta watch this show

[@Maswartz226]

My favorite twist on this is a hero who keeps trying to sacrifice themselves because they feel unworthy finding themselves actually wanting to live.

[@zer0w0lf94]

Like Luz Noceda!

[@radicaladz]

Spoilers for Dimension 20 Fantasy High: in the recent Junior Year season they had a really fun little midseason arc with the Last Standard Exam, essentially a DnD themed Koboyashi Maru, where the Bad Kids had to engage an arena of monsters, keep the observing proctor alive and answer academic questions at the same time, and whilst the supposed endpoint of it was all of the students are expected to die in keeping with the theme of a last desperate stand against a formidable foe, Brennan tips the players and audience off that there are a finite number of monsters, and in the end the Bad Kids triumph without losing a single member. "The Last Standard Examination was created at the dawn of time in order that students would be able to accept death in the face of overwhelming odds, that a great sacrifice must be called for. Many students believe that they have passed this examination by accepting the certainty of their demise. That ethos, that moral, stands in direct contradiction to everything I believe, and that my school stands for. You are the first to ever actually get what I was going for! That when an institution or establishment communicates that you must accept defeat, you raise two middle fingers to the fucking sky and say, “I will never die!”" - Arthur Aguefort

[@noelbedard8252]

can we just acknowledge the smooth and confident pronunciation of Mr. Mxyzptlk? the takes that must have taken, good god.

[@sydhenderson6753]

If only she had said it backwards.

[@BJGvideos]

They say it in the cartoon lots of times

[@magnusprime962]

The part about a hero being too eager to sacrifice themselves was perfectly addressed in Babylon 5. In the first few episodes the Commander of the Babylon 5 space station routinely got involved in life-or-death scenarios to save people. Eventually his Chief of Security and best friend calls him out on this, pointing out that it’s Security’s job to handle those situations, not him. The Commander had fought in a terrible war a few years prior and the Chief was worried the reason he kept rushing into peril is because he wanted to die. He had a great quote for it too: “It’s easy to find things worth dying for. It’s a lot harder to find things worth living for.” The Commander did take more of a step back from those sorts of situations after that. Unfortunately his actor had to depart after the first season due to health issues. The character at least got a good send-off when his story ended though.