Trope Talk: Sequels

[@maximillion322]

As a wise man once said: “a good sequel leaps off of the original, whereas a bad sequel wallows in it”

[@denmark1226]

I see you also watch Zero Punctuation

[@profmalicious]

What episode is that from?

[@BFedie518]

I think the word was actually "wallows"

[@denmark1226]

@@profmalicious Bioshock 2

[@profmalicious]

@@denmark1226 Thanks

[@dionevans7895]

"I won't be using footage for this bit, so enjoy the drawings." Honestly, the drawings are one of the most charming draws of this whole channel, so please, keep 'em coming.

[@Sorain1]

Agreed.

[@Saint_nobody]

So much yes.

[@dondashall]

Yes

[@Sporner100]

I don't get why frozen 2 footage is problematic and starwars sequels footage is not, though.

[@meg4322]

Heh charming *draws*

[@ZanahoriaBaila]

"I don't know why writers love having their kid heroes grow up to be terrible parent, but I'm sick of it" I FELT that.

[@metal_fusion]

Star wars Avatar lok Harry Potter Are fine examples of this

[@kaitlinowens2714]

I was mentally thinking thank you when I heard her say that, a big pet peeve I have is when the hero in question doesn’t believe their kids when they talk about something that happened similar to their own adventures (except if it’s established that it was magic and as they grow up the magic made them believe it was just a game) and don’t believe their kids, like you were annoyed when adults wouldn’t believe you when you tried to warn them about something bad and now you’re doing it with your kids what gives?! Though to be fair the adults not listening to the kids when they try to warn them about something bad is pretty annoying in general the only adult I think gets away with it is the police officer from Coraline (book) because he does hear out, and while we know she’s telling the truth in his eyes because he can’t see the evidence of her parents not being there and she did call in the middle of the night, he just thinks he’s dealing with a kid who had a nightmare and suggests that she go wake up her mother and ask her for some coco. He doesn’t dismiss her at all hears her out and gives her advice on how to deal with what he thinks is the problem.

[@EndymionMhr]

​@@metal_fusion Alot anime to

[@noizepusher7594]

It follows the logic of “conflict = good so let’s have ALL OF THE CONFLICT”

[@lightsideofsin8969]

Especially the kid hero has a habit of being absolutely wonderful with even younger kids. Helping them grow, inspiring them and treating them like people whose problems matter. I will never get over the fact that Naruto has become a shitty dad. He himself grew up lonely and ostracized (spelling?), he has always been amazing with children and you're telling me that he becomes a distant dad who never has or makes time for his kids?! I can absolutely buy Sasuke becoming a shitty dad and husband because that's just what he's like and he never changes but not Naruto. (Sorry, about my weeb rant. The stuff you're into is probably objectively better and more dignified :)

[@henrywall2338]

"and where the hell is Sokka?" he died and was reincarnated as Callum in The Dragon Prince

[@nkyfong]

Obviously. He even as a moment with a boomerang.

[@zoro115-s6b]

Nah, he accidentally traveled to a parallel universe and is Callum's biological father.

[@aris1869]

Which is why he’s not in it

[@SMon42]

@@aris1869 It's because he's not in it.

[@aris1869]

@@SMon42 tru that

[@marsooutoftheflesh3625]

I remember my English teacher once said "If you're going to write a sequel then you should have it in mind when writing the original."

[@ZValerian21]

Your teacher is wise and deserves a cookie!

[@chadfalardeau3259]

But don't make it too obvious

[@quinnsinclair7028]

I don't think that's necessarily true but it is important to not pretend like it was the idea all along or it will start to feel like a retcon. Good stories don't clean absolutely everything up in a neat bow because life never resolves itself in a neat bow so if you've written the first decently there should be more threads you can pull on for another story.

[@mrcroob8563]

But according to the video if you plan it to exist from the beginning it isnt a sequel.

[@chadfalardeau3259]

I meant don't just tack on a "we're making a sequel" ending. You should put in hints of backstory to be filled out with a sequel, and so do other wise you'll get lots of hate e-mail. Cough * Star Wars episode 7* cough.

[@thesatelliteslickers907]

Hear old batman say "can't believe I was ever that green. *this* is how you interrogate someone" legitimately gave me chills

[@Sorain1]

The best part of that to me is that we don't even need to see whatever he did. Just the results and reactions give us a great moment as well as get the plot rolling along quickly and efficiently.

[@PokeBattlerJaze]

Sorain1 don’t forget that his cane was gone when we came back :^]

[@randomweirdo6712]

@@PokeBattlerJaze How did I not notice this earlier? Now I will be forever terrified of old Bruce.

[@nowhereman6019]

Young Bruce must be disgusted to learn that he becomes that bitter old man.

[@Sorain1]

I think he would take it as a warning, after all, the time line must be fluid so he can change things. I think it says a lot that the old Bruce doesn't have any message for him. He either trusts the younger him to get it, or is convinced it won't make a difference.

[@popstarchamp]

Romantic couple: (exists) Sequal: Peace was never an option

[@mr.preston1632]

Or sequel : how about a redhead instead of the very obvious couple that has the glass wizard pot er boy

[@marshmallowvampire8503]

I agree. 11:20 I also hate it that Han was getting into trouble with mobs, something I think he would know not to do by this age. Also I had no clue they broke up. I legit missed it, and thought they made Han's life literally not helping his family or not trying to find Ben, or something else that's actually in character (of ep 6 Han).

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

Yes

[@carmenmercedes9903]

my friend loves writing, and writes random stories for fun. She wrote a story where the main characters fell in love. It was really good, but it felt like they only had those feelings for each other because they were in such a scary situation. In the sequel the main problem was the girl thinking that she didn't love the guy because of that. I think that's a good way to do couples in sequels if you want them to be the conflict.

[@popstarchamp]

@@carmenmercedes9903 That makes a lot of sense. Being wary of a relationship built upon an extreme situation. And with said situation done with, would they actually have a reason to stay together in a loving relationship afterwards?

[@MayaParker01]

I like how legend of korra made toph's bad parenting make sense because she was very sheltered as a kid so she grew up trying to be a better parent by letting her kids do what they want, but then made it bad on the other side of the spectrum because she seemed distant, which made perfect sense for how her character grew.

[@DragonbIaze052]

And Aang is from a culture that literally has no concept of parents. The closest reference he has is Gyatso, who was more of a cool uncle who was just nicer to him than the other dozen people raising him.

[@KaraDragonGirl]

Yeah, not wrong

[@NicoliBain]

What are you talking about

[@emhooaryou698]

​@@NicoliBain Is this actually asking for context, or do you disagree with their comment?

[@grandlegomoff848]

Would everyone want a Trope Talk of “Prequels”

[@thecartoonheathen1659]

Not just the men, but the women and the children too

[@emmarosa9366]

Coudn't have said that better myself

[@alexanderkorol677]

bumping for potential gold

[@elgordo2162]

Oh hell yes

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

We will watch your career with great interest.

[@marsupialmole3926]

It's nice hearing Red just go off on sequels and tropes I don't like. I gave this a thumbs up the moment she started ranting about how writers just seem allergic to naturally developed happy couples.

[@animeotaku307]

Seriously. It’s not like you can’t have a good story with the couple still functional. Frozen 2 had Anna and Kristoph still in love. Sure, they argued at several points, but it was less “they hate each other now” and more “miscommunication which will inevitably pop up when in a relationship.” And they dealt with those arguments in a mature fashion.

[@axios4702]

Worst case scenario is when the writers undo character development through one way or another to add drama such as: We confessed but, oh no! character A has a sudden case of amnesiah! The past three episodes are oficially a waste of your time (see Seven Deadly Sins) The main character and the heroine are finally together thanks to the other contestants accepting he was better off with her and worked together to get them together? Oops! Looks like they still have feelings for him. Fuck the climax of the last season! (See Love Hina) The main character finally made up his mind and chose a girl? Time to have him captured and turned evil! Cant have them together before the end of the show. (Shakugan no Sana)

[@TheRoseFrontier]

@@axios4702 Ha ha, I love Seven Deadly Sins, but I gotta admit that King and Diane doing the amnesia dance was so bad it was almost hilarious. It's like the writer just went: okay, so, they're definitely going to be a couple, but we can't let it happen until the END. Or, at least, season 3, I suppose XD

[@matthewmuir8884]

Yeah; it's really annoying. Though, funny enough, I recently finished watching an anime where the protagonist and the leading lady are completely open and honest with their feelings toward each other, get together as early as episode 9, and they stay together for the rest of the show with no added drama or relationship conflict; just a really sweet, wholesome and functional relationship. It was called Record of Grancrest War, and I would recommend it; it was really good.

[@zidaryn]

One thing that just makes me sad for a lot of shows is we don't get to see the couples actually as couples till happily ever after happens. As much as SAO does a lot of stuff wrong, the one thing I REALLY liked about the first season was that we got an actual full fledged couple in the middle of the show. Didn't have to wait till the end.

[@ThatZillaGuy2]

Old Wayne works so well not only because his aging forces him to focus on his experience, but his very last rescue mission as Batman traumatized him in a way that makes it believable on why such an obsessive vigilante would call it quits even with health problems. When a common thug started beating Wayne due to his health, Bruce actually pulled a gun on the thug, which scared the thug away. The fact that Batman and Bruce had to resort to using the same kind of weapon that killed his parents really got to Bruce that he felt that he didn't deserve to be Batman anymore. And this is supported a few times in the show, as Terry called bullshit on the health being the real reason Bruce quit. It's both a physical and psychological change on the original main protagonist that makes perfect sense.

[@jonalen4217]

Well said

[@idigamstudios7463]

This is also hugely important because of how it relates to Terry. We find out later that Terry isn't just in it to avenge/seek justice for his father, he was a problem kid with a criminal record. So for both of them this new Batman is a redemption arc, Terry giving back for what he took, Bruce bringing the Batman Gotham deserves. Which is a huge part of why the end scene of Return of the Joker where Bruce tells Terry he's the one that makes the suit special not the other way around is just So. Damn. Good.

[@brookebennett6006]

Gosh I love This show

[@DaDunge]

I never felt that was earned, it's just a gun, it makes some sense when you consider it's after the events described in the movie and it's litterally the last drop, but even then seems like an odd last drop.

[@ThatZillaGuy2]

"It's just a gun." I hate to go obsessive fanboy, but this statement alone makes me wonder how much of Batman TAS and Batman Beyond you've actually seen to say this. And which movie are you specifically talking about?

[@jordanfleming7022]

“Luke is in a self-imposed exile after his nephew turned evil and killed all his students.” This could have been switched out for Luke going under the radar to travel the galaxy looking for new students; which would be all the better when one worthy of becoming a Jedi finds him instead.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

I totally agree.

[@marshmallowallen5677]

@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi obi-wan kenobi... now that’s a name I’ve not heard in a long time

[@Doublemonk0506]

Why didn't he do this? It makes no narrative sense for him to do half a death star in his character development. He might've given up on his nephew, but that didn't mean he had to exile himself. He totally could've trained other students in the way of the Jedi, or even have him appear to Rey as the call to adventure and as a mentor of sorts to Rey along with General Organa

[@hopebringer2348]

No

[@griffintattongeyer2949]

I like to imagine a new writer will come in and say we’re going to do we are going to do this again and we are going to do it right And use this comment

[@guyfawkes938]

You forgot the third type of sequel: The Search for More Money.

[@DaDunge]

They already mentioned the star wars sequels.

[@dennisheyes4561]

Spaceballs a movie many would have loved to see a sequel for, but if they actually did one. Fans probably would have complained it sucked.

[@Oscar-j6b]

Many good sequels were there exactly for that. The original did well so let's make a continuity. The difference is how much they let the writing department do the writing and how much they do the marketing department mess up with the writing. What I am trying to say is that, it is not the strife for wealth that drive those movies, games exe to bankruptcy. It is the unwillingness to put work for your desires.

[@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457]

We need more muneh

[@jessewillason2064]

Nice to see another spaceballs fan

[@nonya_bidness]

Im getting to the point where im basically convinced hollywood just doesnt know how to write a happy, stable marriage. Maybe an extention of "write what you know"?

[@isaac1670]

I mean . . . look at the marriages in Hollywood.

[@noukan42]

It's just that Hollywood has a very "safe" way to write in general. Unstable marriages allow for an easy and safe character arc, si they are used whenever it's convenient.

[@matthewmuir8884]

True. Funny enough, it's not Hollywood and the characters don't get married until the end, but I recently finished watching an anime where the protagonist and the leading lady are completely open and honest with their feelings toward each other, get together as early as episode 9, and they stay together for the rest of the show with no added drama or relationship conflict; just a really sweet, wholesome and functional relationship. It was called Record of Grancrest War, and I would recommend it; it was really good.

[@meerkatx]

Conflict drives story, and with a movie you might have 2 hours to tell a story. A happy and stable marriage by its very nature provides very little conflict and therefore it can't drive much of a story. I think if you look at long running tv shows and books you'll find happy and stable relationships are much more common while still having a fair share of unhappy and unstable relationships because there is more time in both formats to explore the story.

[@nonya_bidness]

@@meerkatx the problem is that whatever conflict you can squeeze out of an unhappy and/or unstable relationship generally isn't very useful for moving the plot forward. (unless, of course, the plot is centered on the romance) in fact, it usually only _distracts_ from the actual plot of the story. borrowing one of red's examples, han and leia being separated really didn't add anything to the sequel trilogy. it just sours the memory of what was, and leaves the audience asking, "why?". i mean, just how much conflict is even necessary to drive a 90-150min story from point A to point B? the good, the bad, and the ugly manages a full three hours without having any romance present at all. the story is simply 3 doods trying to find some gold, and that's all it takes for a full ~180min movie.* red described it perfectly with her "oops! all conflict!" rant. essentially hack writers take the basic principle that _'some_ amount of conflict is necessary' to mean, "the more conflict, the better!". but there _is_ such a thing as _too much_ conflict. *(i'm not taking anything out of context here. the closest thing we get to additional conflicts in the entire movie are contained to two scenes. first, they have a run-in with tuco's brother, who helps blondie and chastises tuco. but this is mostly here to just give us backstory for tuco. second, they encounter an alcoholic military commander who blondie takes pity on by blowing up a bridge.)

[@theemperormoth5089]

"Why does Hollywood like splitting up perfectly good relationships!?" Man, Red has trouble reading relationships, but when she gets it, she _gets_ it.

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

True

[@louisduarte8763]

Then again, how often do relationships in Hollywood last IRL?

[@YukonHexsun]

Oddly her perspective is probably better for our purposes, exactly because she doesn't get relationships. An outsider perspective is a valuable thing, plus if she doesn't get them then any relationship that IS compelling to her is probably really damn well written. If you're writing a story you can't just rely on her to fill in the blanks or ride along with it, so you have to actually try. And yeah she is right, they seem to just want to use relationships for cheap drama points. I've got a character in a TTRPG I'm playing who's been married since the beginning, and it's worked as a consistent source of motivation for him because the things she wants are important to him, as is her safety. Though it helps that she's actually, REALLY fucking strong and generally she's in danger for the same reasons he is. That's interesting. If my GM had her do stupid drama shit with me, it would have sucked and I would have hated it.

[@lnt305]

@@YukonHexsun hah, I do the same thing! I really struggled with a good motivation for my characters until I just wrote in “a girl worth fighting for” ;-) I’ve only recently broadened my spectrum by playing a halfling grandma, who has decided to adopt the entire adventuring party, because somebody needs to make sure they have nice warm socks goddamnit

[@YukonHexsun]

@@lnt305 I dig it. You don't see a lot of old ladies, usually just young everyone and if anyone's old it's wizard dudes.

[@221bornot2b]

I adored her rant about how they kill ships in sequels or future episodes of a show. I have this same pet peeve myself so it’s so satisfying knowing I’m not the only one who notices

[@ginrod9392]

I like Sequels like Madagascar 2,Karate Kid 2,BTTF Part II,FT13th Part II,Shrek 2,KFP 2,Child’s Play 2 and Rocky II.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Same pet peeve. And I hated how early tv heroes had to have a love-interest-of-the-week because whatever and when they learned how to write long term relationships a marriage or consummation was the end of the series. Oh and non-ideal women were "redeemed" and immediately killed off except Kitty in Gunsmoke. I really hated the disposable way women were portrayed (with few exceptions). (Big Valley comes to mind.)

[@Death2all546]

How about when they just start mashing random characters together after a timeskip even if it doesn’t make sense? It’s been a while since I watched Dexter, but I specifically remember Batista and Laguerta suddenly being in a relationship just felt forced and implausible. Though, I don’t remember what it was about the two that made it feel that way (I want to guess that they hated eachother?). Even going as far as making me drop the show (that, and probably some burnout from binging the entire show up to that point).

[@elevation9123]

It was soooooo annoying in young justice

[@NinjaTyler]

@@elevation9123 that's what made me hate season 2

[@primalaspid2972]

I can’t wait for Trope Talks: Sequels 2

[@raeidm.raunak4927]

electric boogaloo

[@HackerWarrior84]

The Search for More Money

[@greenergrass4060]

Gotta make it a trilogy, so im expect a sequels 3 too

[@Stratelier]

@@greenergrass4060 And its cinematic universe! ...wait.

[@dargossss]

It's not gonna be as good as the first one, I mean, Red already had her character development.

[@sombra112111]

"I am so tired of writers splitting up great relationships for the sake of time skip drama." THANK YOU!!!

[@ForrestFox626]

Agreed!

[@St-un9ij]

Agreed though the Superboy and Miss Martian relationship arc made a lot of sense and then season 3 we see them have a real solid relationship young justice is actually an example I use for good sequels and constant character development

[@noytelinu]

I am tired of will get or won't they. Get ON WITH IT. Write a happy couple damn it.

[@DaDunge]

The one exception I could see be made is I think that Ron and Hermoine in Harry potter could do with a period apart before finally ending up togehter.

[@ForrestFox626]

@@noytelinu The main issue with Joss Whedon

[@clowntown1017]

So in conclusion: *Shrek 2 is a masterpiece.*

[@dracosol4415]

That and Peter Pan: Return to Neverland. God that movie is so under appreciated for a great sequel

[@mckaylamarille8630]

And Shrek 4 isn't as bad as people say

[@rowanheart8122]

Was this not already apparent?

[@parkertown2229]

Schaffrilas

[@bananaboi9006]

@@mckaylamarille8630 shrek 3 is the real bad guy.

[@gendygoblin8391]

Mark Hammil actually kept saying in interviews that he openly disagreed with his character and can be quoted saying “a Jedi wouldn’t give up!”

[@playdischord1791]

I mean, Obi-Wan and Yoda did on Anakin. That was their flaw and it was Luke’s flaw to cut himself off from the Force.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

@@playdischord1791 There is a huge difference in giving up on a person and giving up on the entire ideology of the Jedi. Not to mention that Luke believed in his father's ability to turn good with an unwavering commitment, which was a direct refusal of his mentors' flaws. That choice defined Luke, so it makes no sense for him to copy his mentors' flaw when he directly refuted them and was proven right for dong so.

[@playdischord1791]

@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi More rebutting the idea that Jedi don’t give up. Not saying that Obi-Wan/Yoda and Luke‘s flaws are exactly the same.

[@Alresu]

He also called his character in the Disney Fanfic "Jake Skywalker" to underline that it's not Luke.

[@KaminoKatie]

Mark does eventually warm up to Luke's portray in TLJ after he saw the finished film, stop spreading misinformation

[@ItsHimBro]

Cant wait for the sequel tho, ngl. "Trope Talk: 2 Sequel 2 Furious." "The Lord of the Tropes: The Return of the King"

[@user-ss2pj1rh7q]

YES

[@ItsHimBro]

@@annnie nawh nawh. Its Trope Talk 2: Judgement Day

[@ItsHimBro]

@Star Saber Trope Talk 3: Tokyo Drift

[@steakthedoggaming5333]

@@annnie Darn I would of said that.

[@bestbi3587]

Sequels 2 electric boogaloo

[@korben600]

You know what I just realized? Han Solo could've had all of his character development, a loving relationship with Leia, and *still done the same shit* in the sequel trilogy. Seriously. Instead of "Smuggling", in the beginning of the movie he's looking for the Falcon, because he lost the falcon the last time he looked for his son. The reason he has that massive cargo hauler in the beginning is because *Leia* is the one asking him to reach out to their son (within the past year or two, negating the idea that Han abandoned her), and she felt responsible for him losing the falcon, so she paid for alternate transport. Their relationship trouble comes not from them splitting up over their neo-nazi kid, but because Han and Leia have had to stay apart because Leia's running the rebellion 2.0 and Han's looking for Ben. They still love each other, but their responsibilities are tearing them apart. Han, being on the front lines, and seeing the horrors Kylo is causing, justifiably is iffy about trusting a bunch of new kids, and is iffy about redeeming his son in the first place. His whole character arc would be about him going from beating himself up for raising a sith lord, before realizing that he did everything he could for his kid, that he was actually a good dad, and that his son's decisions are not his fault. (This would be proven by him being a gruff but nice mentor figure to the new heroes) He eventually dies by Kylo's hand because he tries to redeem Kylo one last time (against the wishes of Rey and Finn, because they know what's going to happen) proving in the end that he is a genuinely good father. Seriously, that would have been *much* more satisfying. Han is implied to be a good parent, and a good spouse, Han and Leia don't break up because of stupid reasons, but their relationship trouble could still be present in a believable but not out of character way (if really necessary), Han's character arc isn't a copy of his arc in the first movies, and literally everything else could stay the same out of laziness, what is so *fucking hard* Lucasfilm?

[@emblemblade9245]

Korben Heagerty great ideas!

[@chadfalardeau3259]

Read the Expanded Universe books. way better than the mouse turds. There is even a backstory to The Millennium Falcon

[@a_a_ronn3146]

Can't blame George for that one. That was aaaallllllll mouse

[@stevenirizarry1304]

Make Han Solo an abolitionist smuggler who smuggles runaway slaves to new homes...this gives Han smuggling adventures without undoing his character development

[@tanuki01]

And all you really need is ONE PHONE CALL to make that plot point where they’re talking about Ben and Leia asking if he’s ever coming home. He mentions he doesn’t even know where the mighty General Organa calls home while fighting the first order and a bit of tension because they’re under a lot of stress but still love each other

[@kirstenpaff8946]

The Cursed Child definitely ticks a lot of the bad sequel boxes for me: 1. The next generation is a lot less interesting than the original generation (Scorpius was okay, but everyone else was either whiny or an asshole). 2. The old generation suddenly becomes incredibly incompetent. I know that an incompetent older generation is common in YA stories, as it justifies why teenagers have to save the world, but it doesn't work when we know that the older generation was able to save the world before hitting puberty and now suddenly doesn't know how to do shit. 3. Beloved characters were turned into assholes for the sake of conflict. 4. It undermines the happy ending of the original. 5. It brings back a villain who was supposed to have been taken care of.

[@Dumpknoedel]

funnily, the best "sequel" also comes from the potter world: A very potter musical part 2, where they very meta-y joke about how there was no way to progress the story cause of the happy end, so they use a time turner and turn it into an AMAZING prequel, SETTING UP AND FLESHING OUT JOKES OF PART ONE

[@BG12sofia]

Even the part of child hero becomes a terrible dad. When I first read the part where Harry wants to keep Albuns away from Scorpio, I remember saying something in the lines of "Oh come on, Harry, teenage you would've hated that! You're better than this!".

[@crocuslament9680]

The Cursed Child also managed to fall into the plot time vs. down time problem TWICE, once with Harry and co. being so different and the second time with the time jumps at the beginning. Literally the first things any fan ever knew about Albus is that he's a nice kid and he was afraid of going into Slytherin. And then he gets to Hogwarts and goes into Slytherin, which is a nice way of paying off a character introduction that was there in the original so that Harry could have a moment of comforting his son. All of a sudden, that second fact becomes the main plot. This is good so far. Only problem is, we don't follow the aftermath of this incident, we skip forward rapidly to year 4. By his fourth year, Albus has simultaneously fallen into the problem of being in down time for four years but also needing to change a lot so that his character arc can just take him more or less back to where he started and where he was the last time we, the audience, saw him so that makes it seem like it's the "changed too much" problem. The issue here is that we never really get to see what he's so mopey about or how it affects his life in the long term, aside from him being in Slytherin. This makes it seem like he's spent the last four years of his life hung up over one thing that allowed him to spend more time with his best friend and he hasn't even tried to improve his life at all since then which kind of just makes him a moody ass. This is *only made worse* by the fact that we, at this point in the story, are not fully aware of how thoroughly Harry Potter's characterization has been shredded so we assume "Hey, Harry's a good guy, he'd be supportive of his son like he was at the train station, literally all of this kid's support systems are in place, why is this one thing mattering so much?" and it all just compounds to create a steaming mess.

[@samuelmoon9776]

You forgot the 6th box: Retroactively breaking the story by changing major plot points. Time Turners and time travel in general were changed for the worse. Now we question why people didn't go back and change other parts of the past. Third Year's plot is also ruined now. Thank You Cursed Child very cool.

[@nrm8831]

It is just bad fanfic. Rowlings didnt write it and just signed her name to it for a quick buck. It breaks all the in universe rules. I hate that nonsense play

[@newsystembad]

I, too, despise how every bright, optimistic hero somehow turns out to be a terrible parent. Which is why my old D&D character raised his daughter (my new character) with all the love and acceptance that his heart could manage, despite his busy schedule as a politician and magi-tech mogul. (Her hangups about not living up to her family legacy are entirely her own. Both her parents impressed on her that she doesn't HAVE to be like them. She can be _far better_ .)

[@joda7697]

that's great actually

[@nikitamalikov6683]

What about Death Star? We've had Death Star. Well, we've had first Death Star, yes. What about second Death Star?

[@BonaparteBardithion]

[Starkiller Base appears] It comes in pints!?

[@zidaryn]

ROFL You guys are amazing!!

[@MrDalisclock]

So what if death star but a planet? Seriously, imperial designers apparently have a two point design philosophy for everything. 1. Build massive planet killer ships/stations/planets. 2. Build massive planet killing lasers and bolt them to anything large enough.

[@TheRezro]

@@MrDalisclock Well, d'oh! Also there was also third one and prototype. And I'm not talking about Ilum.

[@TheRezro]

@@Talisguy He actually also was against large ships, for same reasons.

[@BradyPostma]

Time-skipped Red has decades of plot and character analysis. She talks a little slower, but she makes up for it with a seemingly-endless supply of instant insights in razor-sharp witty prose. She can guess most movie plots within the first five minutes and book plots within 25 pages, but she can name scores of examples of excellent plots that kept her guessing right to the end. And she can whip out beautiful sketches of virtually anything in seconds.

[@PRGME7]

BradyPostma do time skipped blue plz

[@skyler6987]

@@PRGME7 Time-skipped Blue just lives in Venice and babbles about how sharp Ceasar's cheekbones were.

[@gamezharks]

And has an eyepatch

[@sceptile6375]

Skyler Blue's house looks like all the other houses on his street except it has a dome.

[@BradyPostma]

I didn't notice this got so many likes! Blue wouldn't come back in time. Ever since he got permission to "stay as long as you'd like!" in the Florence Duomo, there's literally no taking him anywhere. He's been there for 38 years and counting!

[@nathanielandre2568]

"In a perfect world, sequels give us more of the stuff we love." ...... *But This Is Not A Perfect World*

[@tryptchthonic]

Insert Bad Sequel of Choice Here: In a perfect world, films like me should not exist. *But this is not a perfect world.*

[@IggyTthunders]

That's why Cthulu gave us Kathleen Kennedy; to render the world crazy or in utter despair.

[@h0m3st4r]

In a perfectly good world, sure. In a perfectly bad one, sequels are the worst thing ever and should never exist to begin with.

[@JokerReaperComedy]

Your line will be "there is no way a series of well written narrative could possibly exist that has a long line of sequals", now you! - Joseph Joestar

[@Oscar-j6b]

@@JokerReaperComedy honestly JoJo pulls generation sequels really well and with each next iteration up to part six comes with a fresh protagonist new settings, new characters, plot and motives. Might be due to the style that it is not the setting that makes jojo interesting. It is the style that it carries, which is really good from a writing perspective because it lets you with virtually limitless possibilities. Until now we have 1. Castlevania 2 Indiana Jostar with ancient Gods of GAINS 3. An Odessi towards Egypt 4. A murder mystery 5. Gang war 6. Prison break 7. Horse race 8. Amnesia mystery And all of this stories dispate being across space and time they still have the trademark JoJo feeling.

[@Demon-hj3fh]

Elsa’s hair is some interesting symbolism, first it’s completely bound to her head, then at the end of frozen 1, it a sort of braided ponytail, but at the end of frozen 2 she has it completely down, like how she was trapped by having to hide her powers, then she becomes a queen where she’s a bit more free, then when she’s functionally a god she has bounds and can basically do whatever she wants

[@autisticdancer]

Wow, never thought of this...

[@uria3679]

Who wants the next trope talk to be about the “Pure of Heart” trope?

[@alexlee4154]

*peter parker glasses off 'Pure of heart' *peter parker glasses on 'Chosen one'

[@PedroKing19]

pure of heart ...dumb of ass

[@AgentofChaos315]

If she does I hope she brings up that guy from Young Justice that points out "Didn't say pure good heart."

[@madmalkavian3857]

I still find it funny that DBZ of all things has one of my favorite loopholes to this. "Wait I thought only those with a pure heart could become a Super Saiyan" "I am pure. Pure evil." Funny badass line and a good way to subvert the trope.

[@jaojao1768]

"I have the strength of ten because my heart is pure!"

[@paranoidlizard6338]

I really love how percy Jackson has grown and changed over the several sequel series, how he becomes this like seasoned veteran of a twenty year old, to the point when Apollo shows up mortal at his door, he legit looks at him and shuts the door before ultimately letting him in. And then in magnus chase???? Annabeth’s like “hey my cousin has to go stop the Norse ragnarok and Percy is like “ok cool I can teach him how to not die on the seas and then continue my life as a demigod trying to live a normal life and doing college with my girlfriend”

[@cameronriddle4520]

This just makes me more excited for the new PJO series that Disney has planned!! Hope they dont fumble it

[@jayfeather464]

I hvnt been able to read Magnus Chase yet (shld just get the dam books shipped but anyway) but idky i never noticed that Magnus and Annabeth could be related. THEY HAVE THE SAME LAST NAME T-T

[@nox71377]

I also really like it. It develops the character(s) and juts creates new story. Maybe I just like it cause I freaking love mythology (thanks Red!)

[@hiimchrisj]

I guess the advantage to that franchise is that there's a smaller gap in time between each sequel series, so the downtime never has to stretch to the point of ruining the momentum of his progression as a character.

[@Birthday888]

@@hiimchrisj It's also probably because Percy's development as a character was mostly over by the time the first series ends. Sure, he's not perfect, and he still has a few issues to work put here and there, but for the most part he's completed his hero's journey.

[@TripleTSingt]

"Oh no, we don't want our creators to be "creative". We want them to do exactly what they did before. It was "good" creative then, but now "creative" is bad." - every studio ever

[@WrensthavAviovus]

More like its too expensive and takes to long. Lets bank on nostalgia to gloss over the obvious lazy money grab. Which can work one to arguably two times hence trilogies existing, but not three times. The whole "fool me once etc." Scenario.

[@CoolRobbit]

Green is not a creative color.

[@RamBam3000]

Also add into the mix hat the execs in the offices have never seen a movie in their lives and actually hold audiences in conempt

[@darwinxavier3516]

Many bands have had their "tried new things" moment and their fanbase hated it. You have to accept the fact that people like what they like and most of them won't blindly follow the artist wherever they go. On the other hand if you only slightly change things and it's more or less the same thing with a new hat, the fanbase might question why they're buying another copy of what they already had. It has to be familiar and consistent, not repetitive and lazy. And that's a hard balance to pull off.

[@starfish5599]

16:44 and where the hell is SUKI!? THEY DON'T EVEN MENTION HER EVEN ONCE. SHE'S A GAANG TOO!

[@HuneeBruh]

She’s part of the boomeraang squad too

[@Doublemonk0506]

I guess she's where Sokka is

[@alexschott2092]

Same as Sokka, I imagine. Both died and had their spirits transported to The Dragon Prince reality. The big difference for her is that, before she was reincarnated, her spirit fused with Yue. This explains why Rayla is an elite warrior that draws her power from the moon.

[@skyhideaway]

Right? Sokka was at least mentioned but it really sucks that they forgot Suki, considering how she played a very important role in ATLA.

[@hellothere2464]

@@skyhideaway apparently suki died in her 20s which is sad enough but i really wish they at least mentioned her

[@JakeBolt]

Red: And where the hell is Sokka! He died... off screen, it's Mentioned... once... in the first episode... kinda off handedly...

[@ForrestFox626]

Lame

[@Fafnd]

@@ForrestFox626 Yeah that's why Korra is hot garbage.

[@breenaj1095]

At least he had a mention. I don't remember them talking about Suki at all.

[@jaojao1768]

@@breenaj1095 yea the absence of Suki bothered me a lot

[@Penguinmanereikel]

Honestly. Sokka should've gotten the sendoff with having innumerable children and having died in luxurious amounts of wealth.

[@Runix1]

Speaking of sequel relationships, can we all take a moment to appreciate How To Train Your Dragon? No relationship drama, just two people who trust each other.

[@crown4212]

YES

[@olotocolo]

slow, organic, mutualy respectful relationship that turns into marriage, that spawns parenthood. with characters growing and maturing but not changing into assholes or sad hermits. ahh

[@jasonschuler2256]

Also, The _Mistborn_ Trilogy.

[@scarcovy2607]

Writers be like: “hM. I guess we have a happy couple! Let's add some dRaMa! I guess my readers want to see CONFLICT and not a happy couple!” The writers readers: **SCREAMING.**

[@iamkocka6457]

It's like Jocat's description of the champion, but in this case it's "we heard you like conflict, so we put more conflict in your conflict.

[@nowhereman6019]

Stories are not for your refuge and pleasure, they are your punishment for ignorance and education for reality.

[@lyreparadox]

I always assumed it was because they had to shoehorn in some idiotic romantic subplot.

[@VashdaCrash]

@@nowhereman6019 heh. They tell us the exact opposite on the ads for my local cinema

[@goblinreport5030]

@@nowhereman6019 Bruh, you couldn't be more wrong

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

6:00 I still find the fact that there was a set of chains specifically designed to stop Elsa’s powers were located in her parents dungeon, unsettling.

[@adamjenkins7653]

But when looked at pragmatically as people running kingdom, don't want daughter destroying kingdom plan B, it really makes sense.

[@game_learning_birb]

Those chains existed in real life historically so not actually made specifically for her.

[@abigailgriffin-wc3fm]

​@@game_learning_birb and if they were designed to keep her in prisoned they really sucked cuz she just froze them off

[@eh9618]

*Trope talk 2: Electric Boogaloo*

[@justanotherchannelonyoutub126]

This time, it’s personal!

[@TP-ik7nx]

That random guy lol

[@emblemblade9245]

Attack of trope talk 2: The revenge of the reckoning

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Trope 2: The Talkening.

[@pleasekillyoursef]

im so sad that there wasn't an "Electric Boogaloo" joke in this video

[@estellevu8076]

New sequel idea: the first story is an action adventure, but the second one is just a slice of life as we get to see all of our favorite characters get the happy ending they deserve, hanging out and being generally wholesome.

[@kx4998]

ehhhh, they usually have different kinds of fans especially if the action adventure is gear towards teenage boys or younger.

[@eldermoose7938]

I don't think that would work as a movie or show as the genre shift would loose a lot of the audience. Like that would work as a parody series, or side story, but not really a proper sequel.

[@nathancarter8239]

I had an idea once for a sequel to an action movie where the main character goes through emotional trauma that stems from the events of the first movie, making a genre shift movie that makes sense in the complete narrative. The difficulty with this is that fans of the first movie want more action, and fans of psychological films aren't going to be interested in the series.

[@a.f9234]

That would work as an epilogue episode but as a show it's sounds unnecessary if we know the main characters are going to live happily ever after then why bother to show

[@kimifw58]

You're probably joking, but I think that would be a good idea for a low budget spin-off.

[@annakaro9081]

It's SO satisfying to hear someone rant about that one thing that pisses you off to no end! I also hate when couples exist only for the sake of getting together for a kiss after saving the world (or a relationship that falls apart while the people involved try to decide if they want to get back together or break up for good). It's as if healthy relationships are boring and worthless...

[@wind-upboy939]

Yes, it is. That is why there is no love story where the two get tohether and live happily ever after. That's why there are so few sequels to love stories. Happy couples can only work if the interesting bits are in the rest of the story. For example, a happy couple solving crime.

[@pRahvi0]

While it kinda makes sense that staying in a stable relationship it's against the nature of an adventurer, that shouldn't be the only option. Especially in those cases when the hero shows no signs of _wanting_ to be involved in the chaos the story is about.

[@Pavel7918]

"All happy families resemble each other, but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -Leo Tolstoy

[@gryphon4150]

I don't get it. There are many if not more conflict that can be brought up by having a loving couple. On the top of my head: loved one gets captured, loved one dies, loved one betrays the other, couple work off of one another to defeat the bad guy, i can keep on going but I'm not writing an essay. If an author wants a couple to break up, then at least show what happened on screen and have it make sense. No "One argument undid the three years of character development we had together."

[@user-ft3jq5vi2l]

*looks at other OSP material and sees greek myths* ...seems familiar.

[@R_lulu]

The curious case of the man who refused to kill a relative who turned evil, but tried to kill a relative who could become evil in the future…

[@johnnygyro2295]

Not only that, but you'd think Anakin's ghost would show up to help. Either to tell Ben/Kylo "don't to listen to Snoke, he's a literal meat puppet of Palpatine's!" Or to tell Luke, "Just go to my old castle on Mustafar. I left one of the Holocrons/maps to Exegol there. Kick Palpatine's ass for me."

[@georgevelis4651]

it's like you guys didn't even watch the movie, or only watched Kylo's version of the story. Luke didn't try to kill Ben

[@brycelahm1283]

To be fair, in the movie Luke does say it was a moment of weakness, and the comics delve a bit more into how and why he did it, but it still could’ve been done way better

[@QuietMan81]

No he didn't. Pay attention to the story. You're complaining about something that doesn't exist.

[@qheesethecluelessuke2006]

Did you watch the same Return of the Jedi that I did? Because, uh, everyone who makes this argument, including even Red who I expect more close reading from, forgets the big scene where Luke very nearly DOES kill Vader, just whaling on him in the Emperor's throne room, but then he STOPS HIMSELF at the last moment. AKA pretty much exactly what happened with Kylo, but he actually stopped himself much quicker and sooner with Kylo than he did Vader. With Kylo, he had a literal moment of weakness where he switched on his lightsaber for a SECOND, and then immediately regretted it. I swear, it feels like people think that once you make a mistake, people never make the same mistake ever again. Like, have you ever interacted with humans? People make the same mistakes all the damn time. I'm not wild about a lot of how Luke ended up in The Last Jedi, I don't like hm giving up on creating a new Jedi Order, but that moment with Kylo was not out of character, and anyone who says it is has a glorified version of Luke in their head that is not the same as who was there in the damn Original Trilogy.

[@autismobinch135]

“Enjoy the drawings” Jokes on you because I love your art style.

[@christopherb501]

"your"

[@autismobinch135]

Blank Blanckersen Thanks 🙏

[@sineadthomas2024]

Read her Aurora webcomic if you don’t already

[@cianpatrickcornel114]

@@sineadthomas2024 where do i read it?

[@demonminer8093]

@@cianpatrickcornel114 just search for overly sarcastic production aurora comic. you're bound to find it. also, do yourself a favor and keep your mouse still on every page. red has her own comments on them, and well... its reds comments, they're hilarious

[@WulfieZi]

This is not the third comment. This is the end to a comment trilogy.

[@coyraig8332]

Schedules got mixed up. You were supposed to start that trilogy tomorrow.

[@rinthh5477]

Bruh this was the third comment I saw

[@maritza8825]

Casual wakfu plug

[@yormpbirdhouse4407]

Rinthh omg me too

[@Samantha-lp6kz]

"and where the hell is sokka?" uhh red, honey he's dead. i don't remember when it was stated but katara said at one point her brother and many of her friends were gone. so yeah. dead

[@DaDunge]

What? wasn't Sokka on the city council? The non bender member of the council?

[@ReineGalena]

@@DaDunge He only appears in flashbacks which take place decades before Korra.

[@GamerSlyRatchet1]

She specifically said “everyone she loved was gone”, which is complete BS because everyone but Sokka turned out alive. I would’ve thrown a fit if old Mai, Tai Lee, or Suki showed up.

[@GreatUniter]

@@GamerSlyRatchet1 No she said her brother and MOST her friends were gone.

[@andrewholmes2850]

Suki want even mentioned smh.

[@LilBoyHexley]

Star Wars sequel starts off as option 2 and then "psych!" Turns into *MEGA* option 1, making sure that every original happy ending either failed or fell apart due to conflict.

[@ginrod9392]

Part 2’s are the best ones in the Movie Series.

[@ginrod9392]

@@aceofspadefish4971 Karate Kid 2 is one of the best Sequels.

[@TheRogueCommand]

Red's mini rant about conflict speaks to my soul.

[@zidaryn]

The relationships one had me cheering her on.

[@unwantedmacguffin5611]

8:45 "I don't know why writers like making kid heros grow up to be terrible parents." *Cough cough* Cursed Child *cough*

[@sadiemcc9363]

What the heck were they thinking--that Harry Potter, abused as a child and always searching for a family, would treat his children with anything but love and reverence just to have them there? HOW DO YOU GET SOMETHING SO WRONG?!

[@MortMe0430]

@@sadiemcc9363 I know right?!

[@switchplayer1016]

@@sadiemcc9363 Because The Cursed Child isn't a JK Rowling story. It's a glorified fan fiction.

[@HellecticMojo]

@@sadiemcc9363 eh... abuse victims have a tendency to become abusers themselves. I'm not saying that it's good writing or whatever, but the idea that victims of abuse don't become bad themselves is sadly mistaken.

[@panicontheargo7034]

When Harry said “sometimes I wish you weren’t my son” you have no clue how angry I was that someone who dealt with all that abuse and neglect as a kid could say that to his own son

[@Panda_Roll]

Son you're a man now and completed your arc, it's time we had "the talk".

[@richmcgee434]

"When a main character and a love interest hug each other very, very hard off screen, that's where little baby protagonists come from."

[@silversunset]

“Then after a few decades in the next generation sequel, your children will be all grown up and replace you in the story to go on new adventures”

[@woodfur00]

Implying there's such a thing as a protagonist with parents.

[@traior246]

"And when you finally got the 'Girl', you two will inevitably break up within 3 months"

[@thanatoast]

Jojo is a good example of well written sequels. Each one is self contained to the point that you could read them in any order and not get confused, but all of the events in the story happen as a consequence of a previous part, without it being necessary for you to know what happened on that part.

[@eemelimeemeli]

I don't really think that you can read JoJo in any order and not get confused. While the stories are self contained to a degree, it's the best to read/watch in order since that's how you get the best experience.

[@Rockstar-yv3cu]

Jotaro is also a great example for a Protagonist aged up to mentor. On first glance he is still the same but if you dig a little deeper you notice he only uses "the world" in part 4 if he has his back against the wall and after that he acts rash and impulsive. Because that exact power killed his best friend in part 3 and he probably has a ptsd attack every time he uses it. Part 5 is decades after 3 and he learned how to handle his past. All that is never in the forefront of the story but even if you don't notice that, it feels like he moved on with his life

[@ashikjaman1940]

I think it's helps that parts 1 and 3 were planned from the start and are a very good foundation

[@Tortferngatr]

Yeah, Jojo is one example that handles this rather well. Another thing that helps is that each is distinct--each one feels like its own style of adventure to an extent, while also managing to feel (mostly) interconnected through thematic and stylistic similarities. Granted, Araki *has* mentioned that part of his "secret sauce" is compiling what's basically a biography and psychological profile sheet of each major character before he writes the thing, which probably makes the "convincing character development across a timeskip" a bit easier.

[@TheShadowlord18]

It's not always perfect, but you're right that jojo's characters have logical evolutions. Joseph was very lackadaisical and tricky JoJo, and though he loses a lot of power in his old age and goes to the background a bit he is still savvy, tricky and... Still a bit of a flirt, as Josuke can attest xD Jotaro was a silent but determined kid, and though he is a bit more communicative as he got older, he is still a stoic mentor. And as you mentioned he seems to carry some baggage from his own adventures! It's just well done 👍

[@dementisse]

How could you forget the number one reason for any sequel? Author: ...and they lived happily ever after, the end. Publisher: Gotta milk that franchise until it becomes an udder failure!

[@Necrapocalypse]

I felt that was kind of alluded to while showing DB/DBZ at the start.

[@lucianfrostbane]

don't forget the time Spielberg asked the author of Jurassic park to write a sequel just so he could make a sequel to the movie. which was done. and he proceeded to use the bare bones of the book in the movie

[@sarafontanini7051]

SPaceballs 2: the search for more money

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

@@lucianfrostbane and the Forrest Gump sequel that never became a movie because it was terrible (probably on purpose)

[@mirjanbouma]

THE TRUTH HAS BEEN SPOKEN

[@curestarlight3023]

Red: "... Luke Skywalker, who fought relentlessly to redeem his father after he turned to the dark side, slaughtered the Jedi & joined ranks with an evil space wizard..." That description is one of the many reasons I love Return of the Jedi & Luke Skywalker so much.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

It's also the exact reason why the Last Jedi makes no sense. Luke is one in a million, he's literally used in textbooks as examples of the Hero's Journey and Paragons. It's for fair for Rian to ruin Luke, the ultimate paragon who earned his status. I've got no problem with disgruntled mentors, but Luke is not the type of character to ever turn into one.

[@nunyabiznes7446]

@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi yeah and it was boring af

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

@@nunyabiznes7446 If you think the story of the OT was boring then you are clearly not a Star Wars fan. And if you're not a fan, I don't think we should care about your opinion on Star Wars. Edit: Apologies, I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were criticizing the OT's story, but if you were saying the Last Jedi was boring I am 100% with you. Nothing interesting at all happened in that film and it was such a slog. Again, my sincerest apologies if I misinterpreted you comment!

[@hedgehog3180]

@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi It's not exactly a secret that Star Wars mostly became a classic because of it's ground breaking special effects, not it's story. It's fine if you like the story but that's not why Star Wars is the classic that it is. The story isn't bad either it's good but it's only good, not amazing. Same as Pacific Rim.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

​@@hedgehog3180 The main reason Star Was is a classic is because of the story. The special effects helped but the reason Star Wars is beloved is because of the story, characters, and themes. Lucas worked very hard to translate archetypical character into a modern myth and he created a fundamental story about good overcoming evil that drew influence from 1000 year old classics as well as more recent serialized stories. He's weaving common mythical threads cents old into a modern fairytale, that's not an average story and you can even argue that it hasn't been done in film since. You can read Robert Ebert's review of the original film in 1977, I'm echoing his exact sentiments. Star Wars isn't tough to students in English class because of it's special effects, it's taugh because of its story.

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

9:46 ah, yes, when the younger Batman is the voice of reason, you really are scary

[@whoknows7968]

When Batman is the good cop of good cop bad cop just jump off the building, it will be cleaner.

[@kateancharn4202]

...Now I'm thinking of a Justice League Action clip where Superman wants Batman to play good cop and Death Stroke is STILL more terrified of "Good Cop" Batman than "Bad Cop" Superman.

[@justifiedsmile52]

everything's relative

[@heathercampbell6059]

@@kateancharn4202 To be fair, that would scare me more too. Just saying.

[@kateancharn4202]

@laz kar Ah, so it was, mb. Still funny watching Batman keep someone out by being nice.

[@thenumber27issomehowtaken]

Luke brought Vader to the light, you know, the guy who killed several children. Yet tried to kill Ren when he had a bad dream. Makes sense.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Yup. Vader killed his master, was part of an oppressive dictatorship, blew up a planet, tortured his own sister, and cut off his hand, _and Luke still didn't give up on him._ There is no way Luke would ever ignite his weapon over his sleeping nephew from a _bad dream._ That's just character assassination and nonsensical writing.

[@thelordstarfish]

He really didn't. He had a split-second OH CRAP reaction to seeing that Ben would cause unimaginable destruction and immediately caught himself in the act and went "WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING." It's just that since during that split-second OH CRAP reaction he ignited his lightsaber, he also woke Ben and caused *him* to have an entirely understandable freakout... well, it started understandable. He kinda went beyond the "understandable" bit when he went on to burn Luke's academy down and kill most of his students and take the rest of them with him to serve Palpatine 2. Honestly though, considering that The Force Awakens established "Luke has been missing for 20 years and nobody knows where he is or what he's doing, like, there hasn't even been a slightest whisper of him in all that time," I feel like there really wasn't much else for The Last Jedi *to* do besides "Luke crossed the Despair Event Horizon after feeling that he himself was responsible for the worst possible thing happening." As with many other things in the sequel trilogy, this might have worked better if JJ had actually written down *answers* to the questions he raised rather than just going "OoOoOo what could *this* mean?! Rian Johnson, you figure it out! ... ... Hang on, why would you go *that* route that wasn't where I wanted this to go! Well screw you I'm going my route after all." Just... it really feels to me like Rian Johnson was given a bunch of questions without answers, tried to come up with answers to them that weren't what fans might have expected but that still didn't *technically* contradict anything we had already learned... and then JJ came back and got mad at Johnson for trying to go the not-obvious route and forcibly pulled things back on the obvious route again.

[@galaxystudios370]

@@thelordstarfish finally someone else gets why Luke reacted the way he did

[@QuietMan81]

@@galaxystudios370 We've always been here. We just know that trying to explain as basic a concept as "people change" to someone who doesn't already get it is a waste of time.

[@alanbland1976]

@@QuietMan81 What's shown and explained is Luke making a snap decision to murder Kylo in his sleep over a dream and then thinking better of it. Any explanation for how his character changed to get him there is head canon because the justification for that strange character 'growth' is left unexplained. That'd be fine if it wasn't such a large departure for what we already know of him. But going straight to child murderer is too large a leap for most people to find justifiable.

[@caltheuntitled8021]

Not a single mention of the greatest sequel of all time, “Shrek 2,” I’m disappointed.

[@longliveplanetawesome3223]

I feel like you'd be a fan of Schaffrillas Production.

[@jaceyking5015]

One of the rare instances where I actually liked the sequel better than the first.

[@Harrinsain]

Shrek 2 is unironically one of the best films I've ever seen

[@Geheimnis-c2e]

@@Harrinsain It’s Mongo isn’t it?

[@minutemanchan7232]

Agreed

[@cupcakegirljen7]

“I don’t know why writers love how their kid heroes grow up as terrible parents” .....Naruto on Boruto: Naruto Next Generations vibes, anyone?

[@sidneylugo4434]

Jeronica Shayne Mangalus boruto seems like a bad son rather than naruto being a bad dad...but maybe it’s just me.

[@PhoenixAngel429]

Well there's Sasuke.

[@leoli2450]

I mean, Naruto isn't a bad dad per say. He didn't do anything really out of character, still retains his goofball nature but is more matured now. Boruto is just an angry kid because "Oh EvErY oNe ElSe HaVe LoViNg DaDs WhY cAn'T I hAvE oNe"

[@pyrosianheir]

Eh, Naruto's trying his best. Boruto's just a whiny dick who needs to get some perspective (and continues to fail to do so while they're stuck in filler land)

[@demonking-zm3rs]

@@pyrosianheir Gotta love KZbin comments basically spreading hate without actually interacting with the content creating there opinion based on clips and the same lazy rhetoric. Naruto goal was to be hokage the show ends before you can come to the realization that a preppy teen who can punch gods in the face isn't actually suited to be the leader of a military state.

[@Godzillakingofkaiju1]

To quote the Pizza Monster from Jimmy Neutron: "FOOLS! Haven't you ever heard of SEQUELS!?"

[@Hoshimaru57]

Here’s an easy idea to make sure a sequel isn’t undoing what was done: just have it mentioned “Yes, we won the day for now. But who knows what other threats could arise. We’ll be there to meet them.”

[@ginrod9392]

Sequels are literally Movie Gods.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Sounds like GaoGaiGar+FINAL and Betterman.

[@MMTrigger]

Something I've started to notice about sequels is that what's worse than a bad sequel is a pointless one. As bad as a sequel can be, it can at least have its own unique value by building on the established setting with new ideas. As bad as the Burton and Schumacer Batman films got, Bruce had a character arc. He was a brooding loner and got revenge for his parents but lost Vicki Vale because he couldn't let go of his inner turmoil, not moving on until he fell in love with Catwoman, only to lose her when she couldn't let go of her turmoil. In the Schumacer films he learned to trust in people enough that he ended that series as essentially a surrogate father. Even the Transformer movies, which should've stopped at the third one, expanded on the setting with new characters and ideas and left things open to new adventures. Star Wars? I can sum up the ending of Episode 9 and Episode 6 with the same sentence: The evil emperor's defeated, the lieutenant dies redeemed after saving the hero, who celebrates with their friends having settled their identity issues and resolved to follow the noble path as did their mentors and the lieutenant. If the Sequel Trilogy ultimately can't take the Star Wars story beyond where it was originally, then what's the point?

[@GonnaDieNever]

The Star Wars Sequels were garbage for so many reasons, but the primary one was that they made the OT pointless. Literally any other threat that wasn't the fucking Empire would have been better, and you could even do it well WITH the empire, just not Palpatine and not Sith.

[@JoniWan77]

@Tom Ffrench To be fair here: Slasher sequels are like slasher remakes. The fun about slasher movies, particularly the one from the 80s is not the plot nor the characters. XD

[@chadfalardeau3259]

@Frank Castle The Alien sequels are all their own stories about Ripley

[@thanatoast]

I mean they tried to do things differently but the fans complained it wasn't like the original trilogy so J.J. had to scramble to retcon one movie and try to get to the ending he had planned.

[@arandomnamegoeshere]

@Skeleton Masher have to agree here. The good thing about the Empire is that one war doesn't completely remove all the issues that set up a series of events. The Empire is / was vast. Vestiges of it remains and vigilance is required. It isn't a happy ever after. It's a generational slugfest. And while I like Red's observations on the characters... I think there's another point missing. Sometimes people really don't change. Han faced major disappointment in his life and ran from his problems by returning to his old life and glory years. Meanwhile, Luke's optimism was crushed by a combination of believing in the hype placed on his shoulders and failing miserably at restoring the Jedi order. He fled to... OK... mope. It isn't the Luke everyone was wanting to see. But I thought it was an interesting character change that said interesting things.

[@calebxcuyugan]

“We’re doing a sequel.” “We’re back by popular demand.” “C’mon everybody, strike up a band!”

[@ShinyGaara65]

A wise British man once said that a good sequel jumps off from the original to explore new ideas while a bad sequel wallows in the original trying to make lightning strike twice.

[@jamesharrison658]

if it's who I think you mean, he wouldn't have included that full stop because he uses zero punctuation

[@yogsothoth7594]

I've always had a fondness for sequels that go on to explore the world from a secondary character from the original more and develop them as a person like metro 2034

[@kx4998]

who said that?

[@ShinyGaara65]

@@kx4998 Benjamin Yahtzee Sebastian Godzilla Croshaw.

[@femthingevelyn]

I think a lot of Rick Riordan's books in the Percy Jackson world mainly work because Riordan doesnt try to undo anything from the existing works, or try to retroactively introduce problems. Magnus Chase introduces completely new unrelated problem that just happens to be a relative of a secondary main character from the first series. The Trials of Apollo is a consequence of part of the original series but it justifies itself perfectly, and even though i read the entire book series before and i didnt even properly didnt know how that added up. Riordan didnt make new problems for Percy, so the other series could work on their own. You could start with Magnus Chase or The Trials of Apollo, all youd be missing is some backstory from side characters, but nothing is necessary.

[@TacetCat]

One thing I've taken away from watching Trope Talks for a while: I should *really* rewatch Justice League now that I'm an adult. I loved it as a kid, but I don't think I was old enough to appreciate the apparently very good writing. Also Avatar. I mean, I've rewatched it a ton, but any reason is a good reason to rewatch Avatar.

[@OMartinez91]

I did so last year, and I gotta say JL and JLU have my favorite version of Superman

[@AB-dm1wz]

Know where I can watch JL online?

[@bunpun5135]

I think we’re forgetting the best sequel: Shrek 2

[@sofer2230]

Shrek 2 managed to nail the same points as Frozen 2: * Don't undo the happy ending of the previous installment - make it a midway point of the "true" happy ending, by showing that the characters still have ways to grow. * Introduce a new villain, stirred by the events of the previous installment.

[@randomcommenter7343]

Legit though, DreamWorks has a pretty good track record for sequels (Shrek, Kung Fu Panda, HTTYD)

[@anthonynorman7545]

Yes!

[@BlackClaw2]

Toy Story 2 and 3 as well.

[@afatpigeon1]

Why not the fallen kingdom sequals

[@kacpikachu5951]

I just noticed this, but Empire Strikes Back actually doesn’t ruin A New Hope for me at all. Despite it not being planned, it feels like it was always supposed to be there, which is kind of strange because it is very much the “old threat” sequel path. I think that might be because having the Empire come back doesn’t feel wrong at all. Sure the Death Star was a massive station, and it’s loss hurt the Empire, but the impression I get from ESB is that taking it out, while a major victory, has only made the Empire consider the Rebellion to be a threat. Essentially, the Empire was beaten, but not actually down, which makes sense for a galaxy-spanning tyrannical dictatorship that can not only afford to build the Death Star at all, but can also afford to blow up a subjugated planet, one important enough to actually be missed, as a simple test of a planet killing superweapon. Or maybe it’s just because ESB is well-written 🙃

[@LostInNumbers]

Also, while Lucas didn't plan ESB at that point he did have grandiose dreams about making Star Wars into a full film series, so he intenrionally didn't have the rebels overthrow the empire in the original film. The emperor didn't even appear in that movie, just mentioned.

[@saltyk9869]

I'd say blowing up the Death Star is comparable to having an enemy destroy one of your bases. Yes, it hurts, but you still have dozens (in this case perhaps hundreds) of other bases. Plus, we never saw Vader die. Basically, destroying the Death Star gave the Empire a bloody nose. Episode 4 could be a standalone movie, but Episode 5 doesn't retcon anything which makes it satisfying.

[@fleeceblanket9515]

It's a unique case, because George Lucas, who was just an up-and-coming director at that point, really wanted it to be a trilogy, or else to be one huge movie like Lawrence of Arabia, but knew it would never happen (hee hee). So he took the climax of his huge movie, chopped out the first third of his massive script, and made it into Star Wars. It was arguably the biggest hit in film history, and suddenly he had the job of converting the whole thing BACK into a huge film/ trilogy while also adding new elements like Vader being Luke's father and Leia being Luke's sister and pretending that they were planned all along.

[@liem11]

The thing is that A New Hope was winning a battle. However, you generally don't win a war just because you won one battle. So it makes sense for the war to continue. Now if they had shown the empire disintegrating at the end that would have messed up anything in the future, but they didn't. Also it helps that the sub-villain Darth Vader, who was always more scary then the main villain survived to fight another day.

[@justifiedsmile52]

there is no "or" you have hit upon an "and"

[@evanadams5110]

Some writers are allergic to keeping couples in a healthy relationship. Cough spiderman cough.

[@ginrod9392]

Sequels rule.

[@joefloggg3257]

... YOU FORGOT THE HYPHEN BETWEEN "SPIDER" AND "MAN"

[@sillygoosetaur]

@@joefloggg3257 yeah well you didn’t add a full stop at the end of your sentence so

[@themindfulmoron3790]

If we're talking the Sam Raimi movies, that dynamic was literally never once healthy.

[@saltyk9869]

@@themindfulmoron3790 Pretty sure, they mean the comics. Where they literally had Spidey make a deal with the actual Devil to save Aunt May and the thing he had to give up was his marriage to MJ.

[@fionacodia5803]

"Next Generation Sequels" Ahh yes, like that fanfiction called The Cursed Child.

[@YataTheFifteenth]

It's called "cursed" for a reason

[@raiorai2]

@@YataTheFifteenth Like the name of the story is just "Child" and Cursed is only a factual statement about the narrative

[@mr.preston1632]

A 10 year old can make a fanfic better than this garbage

[@BeetlejuiceBeetlejuiceJr]

*TWILIGHT* is better than that hot trash that I refuse to believe has anything to do with the Harry Potter series.

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

Lmao 🤣

[@merrittanimation7721]

In this episode, Red complains about writers breaking up couples in sequels in order to add cheap drama. I'm not complaining, I hate it too.

[@fionafiona1146]

Where is his impact? All others left a mark on the world.

[@Guydude777]

Same. Let happy couples lie.

[@gershsgaming8673]

One thing I really liked about How to Train Your Dragon was that after the first movie, Hiccup and Astrid were Together, and the writers never tested that or undid it. It was just A Thing. They leaned on each other's strengths and were better for it. It was great.

[@cybershockgames1434]

When you put it that way - you’d almost believe Frozen 2 had a competent writer

[@mvmlego1212]

Agreed. Like Red said, I appreciated the movie simply because it rose above the standard of "dumpster fire", and she made a good point about Elsa and Anna's character development. Still, there were so many things about the movie that just felt off, from Elsa's ice lasso to Kristoff spending the entire movie lost in the woods or screwing up his proposal, to Olaf's cookoolander "water has memories" mantra that somehow ended up being true. It didn't help that 90% of the music was lame, either.

[@jaceyking5015]

I'm probably not the best judge, since I didn't even like the first Frozen, but the second one just... I had so many problems with it. I mean, I guess Elsa finding her "own path" or whatever makes sense for her character arc, but even though I didn't like how she was handled in the first movie, I thought it made sense that she became queen and was able to be a part of her people. Then in the sequel, she goes and runs off and abandons her kingdom (again) to be the "fifth element" or whatever- and isn't ice just a form of water? There was a water element already! I felt the same about Fat Thor in Endgame. He had such a great character arc through his 3 films, and in Ragnarok, he became the great king he was destined to be. Then in Endgame, after losing (and technically, all of the heroes lost, not just him), he gives up, doesn't take care of his people in their most desperate hour after losing half their population, and then in the end after they save the day, he gives up the kingdom to Valkyrie to go joyriding with the Guardians of the Galaxy. Endgame overall was still better than Frozen 2, though.

[@LordMogatron]

My biggest beef with Frozen 2 was the fact that they basically said, "Homeopathy is real in this universe, it will save the day."

[@carmillakarnstein8109]

I don't believe it's the writer's fault. They had the massive pressure from Disney, to match/surpass Frozen in terms of both commercial and critical success, and when you see what din't make the cut, you realize that they had to change a lot very close to releasing the movie. Still sad they turned Elsa into a completely different character just to get mature points and that the marriage made no sense. Everything else was easy to ignore for me.

[@carmillakarnstein8109]

​@@jaceyking5015 as a hardcore Frozen fan, i completely agree with your points. Elsa had everything she ever wanted, her only worries were to make up for the lost time with her sister, and now she ditches everyone who accepted her because the florest has magic?

[@Persnikity-yv3nh]

I feel like in Legend of Korra they could have just sprinkled in some references to vague feats Team Avatar achieved in the intervening years and it would have turned out fine. Also the fact that Uncle Sokka and Bumi never had screentime is a huge waste of potential.

[@mellemadswoestenburg1296]

Yeah they could have done flashbacks when Tenzin, Kya and Bumi were reminiscing about their childhoods. It would have been great. Aang and Tenzin could have been shown training together. Kya could have talked to Karara about how she feels neglected by Aang due to his obsession with rebuilding Airbender culture. And Bumi and Sokka could have been goofing around with inventions and talked about all the great things they would do later in life.

[@rubyamateurtactician4354]

I love it when people refer to Emperor Palpatine as "evil space wizard"

[@nocontextoyster5946]

Ruby: Amateur Tactician Should call him the Senate

[@sarafontanini7051]

well sometimes you gotta something what it is

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

that is because they call the jedi space wizards, and star wars space fantasy

[@justanotheryoutubecommente2]

I have seen the "couple that lives happily ever after starts fighting in the sequel" development so many times and I don't know why it's so common

[@kx4998]

the drama writes itself?

[@eldermoose7938]

I mean the divorce rate in america is like 45% or something so only maybe half of these couples should do that if their going for "realism"

[@DeathBringerBecky]

It's because people don't know how to write couples. They don't know how to convey a loving, stable relationship. They don't know how to write the interactions between happy average people. It's sad. The only other reason is if a writer values drama and needless heartache over letting their characters be happy. These are the only reasons.

[@samuelmoon9776]

It's because when writing a sequel it hard to create tension. Our cast has won before and, let's be honest, will win again. Drama is the classic cheap tactic to supplement this usually poor plot. Break our favourite couples up and your drama writes itself. People will be invested from the get go because it is a favourite couple. Its cheap and very frustrating but it is easy to see why people do it.

[@elsie8757]

@@samuelmoon9776 That explanation has never held water for me. When a couple that got together in the first installment is shown to have split up by the next installment PURELY so the writers can put them through the courtship song-and-dance all over again, someone is always quick to shout that it's because "Oh there needs to be ~*~conflict~*~! People being happy just isn't ~*~interesting~*~ enough to carry a story!" But like. Yeah, cool, HAVE THE CONFLICT COME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE THEN. Other forms of interpersonal tension exist besides will-they-or-won't-they!

[@katherinebotuyan5918]

OSP: *releases a video on my birthday* Me: "Best birthday gift ever" Red: *Praises Batman Beyond for being a good sequel* Me: EVEN BETTER! 😍

[@callianr6980]

Oh, happy Birthday!

[@willowk.2231]

happy birthday, stranger

[@katherinebotuyan5918]

@@callianr6980 Thank you!

[@katherinebotuyan5918]

@@willowk.2231 Thank you!

[@longliveplanetawesome3223]

Dude, not only did OSP post a video on your birthday, but Friday's are when Red updates her comic! Man, some people have ALL the luck in the world. Happy Birthday!

[@AmberPanda382]

I love Zuko in TLOK. His character is different, but he’s still similar to young Zuko, and I love the moment he hears about uncle Iroh in the spirit realm

[@backbiter8787]

You know what I find really helps a generation-sequel? Lowering the stakes. So many of these try to redo the original and end up either undoing everything the original cast worked so hard to accomplish or they tack on even more powerful villains until it becomes ridiculous. My best example of this is the Boruto-anime which OPENS with a flashforward to show the hidden leaf in ruins and our new MC about to face off against a nemesis who claims to have killed our beloved knuckleheaded ninja from the OG series. That is a surefire way of making me NOT care about the overall story AT ALL because I have no desire to find out how all the people I have become emotionally invested in lost their happy ending. On the other hand, I care a great deal about both the new and old cast grappling with the smaller conflicts in their new lives, especially when it builds on character threads that went unresolved in the original. Watching Sasuke try to find out more about the weird moon-people who act as antagonists is boring, but watching his daughter question her parents' marriage and whether or not her distant father really loves her when he hasn't seen her since she was a baby? That is GOLD because OF COURSE the angsty rival-character with intense family-trauma grew up to be an overprotective but emotionally unavailable father-figure who doesn't understand how to show healthy affection for his own family. Whenever the series embraces these lower stakes and stops trying to top the original it avoids all the pitfalls of a sequel and becomes its own thing.

[@boobah5643]

I fully endorse the concept here, even if I can't speak to the specific example since I tapped out on _Naruto_ shortly after powering through the filler before _Shippuden._ I'd add that it's not _just_ nexgen sequels, the point is that the stakes are important to the characters we care about even if we acknowledge that landing the perfect job is less important than stopping the planet's destruction.

[@zoro115-s6b]

I think this really is good advice. NEVER try to one up the original just for the sake of it. Just because they saved the galaxy in the last story does NOT mean that you should put the whole universe in danger for this one. Lowering the stakes can allow the actions of the previous generation of heroes seem like they had a real impact, and as the "save the world" trope talk discussed, you don't HAVE to have massive stakes for the audience to be invested. The audience will care more about one small town of developed and likable personalities than an entire planet of nameless people we've never ever seen on screen. And it can be a good way to explore the consequences of the actions of the last generation of heroes while not undermining what they did. Sure, they prevented the world from exploding and they stopped the big bad. But things aren't perfect and there was collateral damage, and the new characters may need to deal with some of the fallout of that.

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

i think it is so ironic that in boruto one of the best character is sasuke because for me he was the weak point of shippuden

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

@@zoro115-s6b dragon ball kinda did that in cell arc, cell was created to kill Goku, he never seemed as a danger to the galaxy like freeza, and the ending being resolved in a tournament was a throwback to the classic, them in the next arc it started with a low stakes tournament that became the summoning of a demon that would destroy the universe

[@Sorain1]

I think the trick is to have peaks and valleys in narrative stakes. If you had a small scale self contained story (say, John Wick's personal revenge story.) then you move up to larger scale/stakes. (Hay John, your personal revenge broke the rules and threatens to break the balance that keeps the underworld functional!) If you have a high stakes story (So if the justice league doesn't stop this nanite meteor thing, it's going to grey goo the earth.) you move to something with smaller stakes (General Eiseling, your personal crusade for america and against super powered folks like the justice league is not licence to hurt/kill innocent people!) You can always vary the scale again, but trying to go in one direction for too long always seems to fail.

[@jeremiahsnelson5644]

For the last time, it isn't a rebellion until you're fighting against people who are already in control. Before that, it's just war.

[@jeremiahsnelson5644]

@Pranay Talati Sure, it sounds better, but at that point it's just disingenuous.

[@KurtAngle89]

Yes, and there's a stupid political reason for that: to say "now WE are in control, and we are fighting against people who rebelled against US" seems...bad. Like, we've become the bad guys. Instead, Hollywood screenwriters LOVE the trope of "whoever is less strong and rebelling against someone stronger is ALWAYS right" as if we haven't seen that going bad a million times in the real history, with "rebels" becoming new dictators even worse than the previous. Instead, they make so SOMEHOW those in charge lost their power and the "Evilz" is back in town with an advantage. PROBABLY Leia is Resistance again because the "Official" Republic ISN'T fighting back against the First Order, but...that's stupid, and also very lazy writing, that could be fixed by 2 short lines of dialogue

[@reganator5000]

@@KurtAngle89 the thing they don't seem to understand is that you don't even have to go that far- plenty of rebel groups who never actually won were demonstrably bad people because you don't have to defeat the empire to commit warcrimes.

[@Petrico94]

I believe Yahtzee said: A good sequel takes the themes and momentum from the first story and uses it as a jumping off point, expanding the universe and ideas and further develop characters who still have places to go. An ungraceful sequel gets stuck in the original and tries too hard to be like it again, not really improving. More of the stuff we love is nice but we already have that so the time is better spent giving us another layer. Next generation sequels can be great if they interact with the previous group or just act as another group going on a similar journey, but if they're carbon copies or stand ins for the original and not much is really different it loses hype real quick.

[@TheRezro]

She also forget about, as I call them "villain focus sequel". Basically use original story as jumping point for story of main bad guy. Good example of that is Kung Fu Panda 2.

[@lespena3722]

Petrico94 I know. This is also why I saw that frozen 2 failed. It both tried to be like the first and mocked the first movie.... so it failed.... the only good thing about that movie was the animation. But everything else was sooo bad! The word bad is not a good enough word to describe it.

[@Sorain1]

The worst kind of sequel spends its time mocking the original itself and the audience for liking it, while demanding the same love be given to it's own characters that it fails to develop. (Hi there Disney!)

[@ForrestFox626]

Which review was that?

[@jackferring6790]

I would argue there is another option that more than likely would ruin a sequel; take the themes and momentum of the first film and throw it out the window or take it in a direction it clearly wasn't going because "we're doing something entirely new". unless the previous installment(s) are really bland and the new direction is really insightful, your going to piss off everyone who liked the original and most people who your trying to attract will likely dismiss it based on the previous entry.

[@eastonlaskey6825]

I liked how the writers of Young Justice handled Meg'an and Conner's relationship. It hit a rough patch do to already setup character flaws in a way that was realistic. And then they were happy together in the end

[@genm4827]

It's such a shame Red hasn't gone through JoJo, because Araki is the master of sequels. 8 parts in and 30+ years later, the mad lad is still writing the best stories of his career.

[@Aaron-gq8cl]

I know, right! When i heard the generational sequel part my mind immediately went to jojo’s, but she never talked about it. How do you go on living your life watching anime and never watch jojo’s? it’s really good!

[@demonking-zm3rs]

To be fair it was a gradual build up he hasn't always hit the mark. It helps that JoJo is rooted in comedy so as he was working out what he wanted you couldn't get to upset over some of JoJo's issues.

[@dargossss]

Yeah, I'm assuming she hasn't seen any of it until there's a mention of JoJo's in any of the videos. I also think she's not that into shonnen, so I believe there's a low chance.

[@oh-seecreations6308]

She's apparently seen the first three episodes of Phantom Blood. I hope she continues further - like part 1 may be cheesy, but that's the charm of JoJo.

[@PrimeofPerfection]

I... sigh... I kind of have to disagree. I actually don't think JoJo's writing is as amazing as people make it out to be at times. I'd argue that from Part 3 and up its become more and more an episodic Stand of the Week show as opposed to a tightly woven strongly plotted series.

[@airshow406]

I always loved how Batman Beyond was brave enough to take Bruce Wayne to his logical conclusion. It always always upsets me when writers give Batman a happy ending or otherwise allow him to retire from the job young so he can run off and be a family man while someone else takes up the mantle. NO! Bruce Wayne is destined to fight and fight and fight until he can't fight any more and retire bitter, old, and alone. That's fucking awesome.

[@timothycarney9652]

I think you could write a happy ending for bruce but it would have the same issue that Luke had in the last jedi- big character development that changes the direction of a well known character, that all happens of screen, and doesn't make sense in general. I could see a satifying story being written where Bruce hands things off to a protege like one of the robins, and ends up happily married while in a supporting role, but it would need to be convincingly shown. Either in its own story or in flashbacks. Batman Beyond instead does the best of 1 continuing a character's arc to a reasonable starting point for the sequel and 2 getting the sort of character drama a romantic break up would create but being entirely in character. Bruce just kept going as batman until he couldn't and the version we see in Batman Beyond fits that perfectly. Luke being a cranky, old, reluctant mentor fails because it is a derailment of the direction his character was going in, he has given up, where the luke we know wouldn't, he is still plenty capable of fighting and using the force, as opposed to Bruce who only stopped when he physically had to, and the pivitol moments that set them on the trajectories for the sequels fit Bruce but not Luke. The Joker definitively ruining Bruce's relationships with his proteges makes sens in universe and of course Bruce would end up old and alone without that support network, but Luke driving Kylo firmly into the darkside out of paranoia is out of nowhere for anyone who knows him and not only giving up on creating a jedi order, but on a family member that fell to the dark side? Batman beyond doubles down on the problems of Bruce and Batman to explain where it starts, The last Jedi rehashed old character ideas for new characters and invented new problems for a character that it doesn't make sense to have those problems as part of the general "screw everything the previous film and director was trying to do, even if it would be a better story than what we are making" which is why the disney trilogy is a hot mess at best.

[@williamsledge3151]

Right when i ran out of trope talks to watch

[@monkeyman7210]

William Sledge same

[@TP-ik7nx]

William Sledge same

[@Michal-by2nt]

Same, I re-watched like 20 of them xD

[@zusfrankenstein8561]

Right on time, eh?

[@williamsledge3151]

@@zusfrankenstein8561 yep

[@IIBloodXLustII]

You just voiced all of my frustrations with the Star Wars sequel trilogy way better than I can.

[@carolinemckee7009]

3 Trope Talk ideas: "Color Association with Characters" "Adaptations" "AU/ Parallel Universe (not to be mistaken with time travel multiverse)"

[@BonaparteBardithion]

Has she done evil twins/clones yet? Because Parallel Universe is usually that as an ensemble.

[@erikthomsen4768]

The first one could be interesting. But in order to large enough for a video with might have to expand the subject. Colors, themes and attitudes could be better introduction and building block to the characters since these interconnected details could fill out a full video.

[@scarcovy2607]

Deres? Like Yandere, Tsundere, Dandere. It's such a flawed trope, and such a common one. Red could also talk about Toga from MHA and how Hirokoshi did a fantastic job subverting the Yandere trope. (I like Toga too much-) Also, Deres are such a staple of anime. There's so many good Deres out there, but theres so many horrible one who are just bland. Yanderes and Tsunderes are definitely the most common, and both of them can get extremely annoying. Like, dude, why would fall in love with someone who is a jerk to you OR MURDERS EVERYONE YOU TALK TO JUST SO THEY CAN'T LOSE YOU?! LIKE WTF- I would really like to see an episode of this.

[@crown4212]

color association.....Sanders Sides???

"I don't know why writers love having their kid heroes grow up to be terrible parents, but I'm getting pretty sick of it." Neglectful Aang.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Jake Skywalker...

[@janesmith5259]

There are some child heroes that I can kinda see the case for them making bad parents, but not Aang. He cherishes all life, especially those most important to him. Am I seriously supposed to believe he took better care of Momo than his own son?

[@sbatou87]

He wasn't a terrible parent, but he did play favorites, as Tenzin was his one and only airbending child.

[@hedgehog3180]

He wasn't though. He was just a flawed parent but how in the world can you say that he's a terrible parent when the show gives us an actual example of a terrible parent. Aang wasn't bad he just had some flaws and all of the kids do end up agreeing that he still was overall a very good dad he just made some mistakes. Take note that while Zuko clearly hates his dad none of Aang's kids actually hate him some of them just felt a bit overlooked and had some frustrations with him but maybe mostly Tenzin. For a show that's so much about nuance people seem to be completely incapable of grasping this bit of nuance. Kids complaining about their parents doesn't automatically make the parents terrible and to think so actually only makes it more difficult for everyone because there should be a space to voice your complaints over your parents without it automatically being assumed that they're abusive.

[@zoro115-s6b]

@@hedgehog3180 Seriously, people need to stop acting like the show called Aang the worst parent in the world. They basically said that he was flawed as a parent, which really isn't surprising at all. He had important avatar stuff to do, so obviously he wasn't around a lot of the time. And yea, he spent more time with Tenzin when he did have the chance to spend time with them. Because Tenzin was his only airbender kid. Aang probably felt immense pressure to teach Tenzin as much as he possibly could about being an air nomad. But it's not like his other kids hated him or never saw him. They just didn't get to see him as much as they'd like to have. People make way too big a deal out of this.

[@crown4212]

One good sequel to a movie, that isn't actually another movie is Tangled: The Series. It really delves into how the characters feel about the "happily ever after" (it's even a song!). It takes the lore of the sundrop and flower and expands on it. It also introduces new and exciting characters, some of which quickly became fan favorites.

[@alenazwiep2996]

Yes! That is such an underrated show!

[@ForrestFox626]

Ironically a sequel can be even better in a different format then the exact same method.

[@gregorymaus6289]

All while doing an excellent job of portraying a stable, healthy, and evolving relationship between Rapunzel and Flynn, thus avoiding the cheap filler drama Red derides here.

[@merbear127]

YES!!! And the character development and plot twists make sense!

[@RebekahLeiplein]

Whenever I am at a loss for what to watch I go on a binge of trope talks. A number I really like, many of which are applicable (though perhaps gently) to my writing. I seem to come to these both when I am full of inspiration to write and also when I have no inspiration whatsoever. So... Frequently. Love these.

[@hogndog2339]

Trope talks are great to binge every couple months when KZbin feels a bit stale

[@rimekairos]

SS: Wow, Batman playing Good Cop. GL: Everything is Relative.

[@sadface4083]

I love how else’s hair kind of represents her level of freedom The beginning of Frozen it’s tightly nodded and Captain By the end of Frozen in the beginning of Frozen 2 her hair is a little bit more loose but still in braids (which is very tight if you ever done them before) And by the end of Frozen 2 her hair is completely loose I don’t know the complete reliability of the drawings that Red gives us but if it is then it’s a good design choice on the behalf of Disney

[@just-trying-my-best-everyday]

Let's take a moment to appreciate the fact that Red drew Elsa farting those magic ice thingies.

[@ryanratchford2530]

Terminator 2 and Aliens are good XXX sequels because although the premise of the conflict is “like the original but worse/bigger/more!” Aliens and terminator 2 present the escalation through a different genre. Action rather than horror. Like you said, copying the outline of the original conflict can feel boring because we’ve already had it. But presenting it as a new genre is a good way to have it be familiar but with a new twist and completely different flavour. And sequels to horror is usually well suited to become action because the horror is deminsihed now that the threat was defeated in the original. So escalated & drive the conflict through the action not horror. It’s familiar but new. This is also why both the terminator and alien franchise have struggled because they have just stayed as action-horrors.

[@Quintaner]

Lord of the Rings, as a whole, is actually a great example of a next-generation sequel with a brand new threat, with only a handful of characters and the ring being the tie to The Hobbit

[@richmcgee434]

Accurate. I suppose you could even stretch things and call the Silmarillion a prequel, although that's one heck of a time skip between it and Hobbit. :)

[@artemiswolf4508]

Quintaner Yeah but let’s not forget JRR Tolkien has to make a bunch of retcons to the original to make the sequel work. So it’s good but not perfect.

[@FirebladesSong]

@@artemiswolf4508 Yes, but even those worked well by establishing Bilbo as an unreliable narrator, due to the influence of the Ring.

[@matthewmuir8884]

Technically not brand new, as Sauron was mentioned in The Hobbit as the Necromancer. In fact, in the books, Gandalf introduces Sauron to the audience by saying he was a fool for not realizing what the Necromancer truly was.

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@artemiswolf4508 The only retcon I can think of was the events in the cave with Gollum, and that worked as a case of unreliable narrator on Bilbo's part.

[@IceQueen975]

Red: There's also Generation Sequels where the previous generation will usually act as a mentor for the new generation. Me, looking at my two series that are interconnected where the previous generation caused all the bs the new gen has to clean up: ....yes... "mentors".....

[@nikki607]

Ok now I'm curious

[@bucketorandomness9383]

hold up, you talking about Boomers?

[@a.morphous66]

Honestly, that's most Next-Gen sequels. They almost always revolve around issues that were caused by the OG heroes not tying up loose ends or otherwise screwing up. Unrelated, but I especially like the concept of a bigger badder eviler guy that was held at bay in some manner by the big bad evil guy of the first series and then has free reign when the heroes destroy the original.

[@nq3036]

@@bucketorandomness9383 MY DUDE! thats exactly what i was gonna say. well played.

[@micahclark3606]

Me: hahaha...haha...haaaaaa ......... Well at least I’m not alone...

[@theomegajuice8660]

Red - "Once Ben turned evil Han and Luke did nothing for 30 years..." Erm Red, how old do you think Kylo Ren is?

[@heathercampbell6059]

I will admit, I was wondering about the math there.

[@richmcgee434]

I see your point, but from his behavior in the movies I'd have said four, maybe five years old. Cranky toddler with a lightsaber, that one.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

The timespan was off but the point still stands. The underlying problem is that the characters regressed and gave up when it was out of character for them to do so.

[@zoro115-s6b]

@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi How come you or Anakin didn't have a talk with Ben? I mean, having to clean up the messes your idiot apprentices do is kinda what you do right?

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

@@zoro115-s6b That's a fantastic question that you should ask Disney. I was totally ready to come back and spit some advise as a ghost, Anakin was too. It's just another missed opportunity for the sequels. In fact, it goes beyond missed opportunity, not including Anakin and I was failure of the sequels. Anakin is literally the main character of the entire saga but they don't even mention him by name in all the sequel film. Meanwhile, I'm the backbone of the saga, I connect the old generation to the new generation. We should have both appeared, Star Wars is not complete without us in some capacity.

[@Dragongaga]

This "Oops, all conflict" mentality sits pretty close to Grimdark

[@ConnanTheCivilized]

Yep. The thing about Grimdark is character and plot tend to be less important than in other genres, so there is less backlash compared to story driven worlds. Stories from other genres such as Shazam and Jurassic Park are also mindless escapism, and don’t rely on solid writing/logic to keep the audience coming back. The Avengers movies (while obviously in a fictional universe) are so character driven that no amount of good writers can keep bringing those characters back without ruining the series.

[@CrimsonBlasphemy]

Red: Sets Time Skip Hero Bar with Old Bruce from Batman Beyond. Me: Ya, no one's clearing that hurdle. Not even a resurrected Jesus.

[@EarlyOwOwl]

Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney is a really good next gen sequel. Not just because it's a really good game, but also because of how much Phoenix changed, and how they used that change to get the player even more invested. Like, last we saw Phoenix Wright, he was a legendary defense attorney making a name for himself. Now... he's homeless?? What the heck happenned?

[@emsterachu]

Oh man I was waiting for someone to mention Apollo justice. At lot of the time I was playing the original trilogy, it felt as though Phoenix was able to get away with so much. The dude was practically untouchable. He always won, sometimes because someone did it for him. And the time he DID lose, he kinda did it on purpose. AJ almost did the unthinkable, but it still fell in line of what Phoenix would do. He was disbarred, because he unknowingly showed falsified evidence. It made Phoenix, in some sense, more realistic. Yes, he usually made mistakes before, but it usually worked out in the end. This time, it didn't. Not for a long while, at least. What I love the most, is while we do see Phoenix in what is considered one of his lowest points in the series, and you can see how much he's changed, it isn't jarring. It's still him. Just mellowed out with age and experience. The first case showcases this the best. In court he's confident, accusing Gavin and honestly sounding just like his old self. But after the trial, you learn he gave false evidence AGAIN. But this time... He doesn't care. It doesn't matter anymore to him. The end justified the means. He's still Phoenix, but more. All in all, AJ may get shit but it's a heckin good next gen sequel. Only thing I hate is that Phoenix is a cryptic asshole at times. He's like if Mia smoked weed.

[@BobTheArchmage]

Though Apollo Justice falls into the pitfall of having the old main character overshadow the new one. Phoenix blatantly steals Apollo's thunder at way too many points and ends up being the one who solves everything by the end.

[@Santoryu90]

@@BobTheArchmage I don’t know about Phoenix completely overshadowing Apollo but I do remember that Phoenix originally wasn’t going to even be in the game but Capcom didn’t want that so they had to have him part of the plot in someway

[@justanotherchannelonyoutub126]

Past tense, they’re called “sawquels”

[@LegoCowManZ]

Dammit, take your comedy award and get out. Door's over there, award's on the table next to it.

[@DeadInside-ct6dl]

Kill me pls😂

[@naz4488]

Oh god why

[@merrittanimation7721]

For feel dumb that I thought this was a dig at the Saw sequels and not a pun.

[@pleasekillyoursef]

sequels come from the french word "quels" wich mean's "¡¿WHAT?!"

[@bbynbwitch]

16:45 “And where the hell is Sokka?” He’s dead, Red!

[@CJCroen1393]

Red: And Elsa is happy with herself for the first time ever. Don't you mean "For The First Time _In Forever"?_ :D

[@calleblomer1889]

You cheeky bastard.

[@mackielunkey2205]

There’s a missed opportunity.

[@justifiedsmile52]

motherfu-(peters out into vaguely profane mumbling)

[@minatodroger7890]

What's longer than forever lol cookie for you

[@TiredCzech]

"Where the hell is Sokka?!" I'm sorry to say this, but Sokka died before The Legend of Korra began.

[@mpnuorva]

So did Aang, yet his presence in the story isn't limited to a single flashback.

@@mpnuorva I guess there wasn't much to do with a non-bender in Korra, since their purpose is to get Air bending habilities.

[@ajytrxxv]

@Roikka isn't it though, it was the same flashback broken up plus a 10 second scene. Sure his kids talked about him but that was related to their own development. My own headcanon says Sokka died protecting Korra.

[@theangrypacifist1568]

Yea, I was about to say "Isn't he fucking dead?"

[@carloseduardoaguiar8712]

Sukki (which was part of Team Avatar) didnt even had a flashback.

[@emperorskulls]

Trope talk: Last Stand. Use Dinobot from Beast Wars as an example.

[@Osric24]

One of the best last stands of all time.

[@dracosfire7247]

God I love this trope. I stand by Halo Reach as the best Halo, and having the finale be a last stand was an act of brilliance imo.

[@kamikazelemming1552]

Rider vs Gilgamesh. One of the best last stands of all time, even if in the end Rider failed to land a single scratch.

[@HellecticMojo]

Does it count as a last stand really? Self sacrifice for sure, but he entered into the one sided battle instead of being cornered into it physically.

[@Sorain1]

There are plenty of Last Stands that were chosen. Look at the Spartans (and Athenians!) at the hot gates. Not every Last Stand requires a Rorke's Drift or Helms Deep 'you can't escape' situation to happen. Many argue that it's more noble to do so when you did have the option to run. Sometimes it's more narrativly satisfying for someone to make a hopeless stand rather than compromise their character or principles.

[@gamesmasher7120]

I've always really liked the concept of "Oh hey, those guys, but old now!" for some reason, and I love it even more when they play a larger role in the story again. It just seems so cool to me.

[@lionelk.y7233]

Even better when it's a teen hero that actually cared about their kids