Troy Analysis - How it got Achilles and The Iliad WRONG!

[@olivermceldon]

My main issue is that they did Patroclus dirty, in the poem he is so much more important. He kind of represents the Greeks, their suffering at the hands or as you said, the words, of Achilles. His anger at agamemnon is replaced by grief at losing him. Not only because its a representation of Achilles death, but also because Patroclus acts as his closest friend and ally. He feels he has no one he can trust as he has turned the men against him by cursing them and not fighting

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Spot on

[@baxterbrownentertainment]

How much more important could he be in the movie? His (Patriclus) death is what seals Achillies fate.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

​@@baxterbrownentertainment I dunno, him being Achilles's love

[@Pixelsam7]

And they were roommates

[@SH19922x]

Stop fagifying the past ya dork, comradeship and being best friends means nothing to someone with none​@@ChangedMyNameFinally69

[@hannibalbarca7902]

The way they reduced Patroclus to a 5 minute on screen character and practically supplanted him with the Eudorus character always seemed stupid to me. Just have Eudorus be Patroclus, show him being Achilles's buddy and right hand man throughout the movie and then when he dies, his death will be powerful and impactful for Achilles and the viewer will notice that.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Haha, spot on! Even though the Eudorus is boring af, it would actually make more sense that way xD

[@bengough6772]

I think in 2004 there was still a lot of tension over both a) representations of male love on screen B) actually understanding the relationship between achilles and patroclus. Its still not really understood the true depth of that friendship and many people just write them as lovers (which may be the case but also maybe not quite)

[@kforcer]

@@bengough6772 Yeah, I don't think they were lovers, that's more of a later interpretation of Homer that started with guys like Plutarch, as I understand it. It was clearly a very intense love they had for one another, but I don't think it is a love that is alien to men or women; people do have intense platonic friendships for people. And in the case of Patroclus, he seemed to serve a double-purpose as Achilles' conscience, who held him to a higher standard and brought out the best in him, while also remaining resolutely loyal to him.

[@jerryknuckles736]

When I saw 300 i wondered why they loved this guy so much as their psycho warrior in both movies

[@justicethedoggo3648]

​@@kforcereven Plato said they were lovers . Male romance was very normal back then and it haven't to be mentioned specifically. Romance only between men and women is an abrahimic propoganda . They have made reproduction romantic

[@god4143]

They 100% missed out by not including a true representation of Achilles’ wrath after patroclus’ death.

[@V2011F]

Seeing him fight and kill a large group of men after his fight with Hector would have hammered in his wrath and rage, both at his fate and the Trojans. This would also make him coming to peace with Priam all the more emotional for the audience and would allow us to see that he was finally accepting his fate.

[@ananda_dlg]

Agreed

[@kforcer]

A big issue with this movie is the way they presented Agamemnon. In The Iliad, people are continually struck by Agamemnon's kingly appearance; when Priam sees him from the walls of Troy, he seems to think that Agamemnon is of an almost godly countenance. And Agamemnon is also a warrior with almost no equal in The Iliad; he's referred to as "the foremost man" among the Acheans and it is only when he leaves the field--after singlehandedly pushing back the Trojans in a near rout--that Hector goes on his most devastating charge. By making Agamemnon an old, unattractive man--not calling the actor ugly, but that's how he's presenting the character--you make the tension between Achilles and Agamemnon far less compelling and Agamemnon's flaws become much less interesting as well. The Agamemnon of The Iliad is a man who is great in some ways and fatally flawed in others; he rings true because the strongest, richest, most charismatic and best-looking guy is not always the nicest guy or the best leader, even if you might want him to be. Sometimes the captain of the football team is a jerk. Virtue and vice coexist in humans and in The Iliad, Agamemnon is a brilliant illustration of that. And even then, his concern for the welfare of his men continually shines through, despite his hubris. In fact, much of his insecurity and indecision comes from his concern for the lives of his soldiers. The movie took one of Homer's most interesting characters and just turned him into a stereotypical movie bad-guy strawman.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Well put

[@kforcer]

@@CinemaAutopsy Great video! My father loved The Iliad and I think he would have really loved your video if he'd been able to see it.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

@@kforcer thanks for your comment. I also learned to love the Iliad thanks to my father.

[@lokhuspokhus8412]

This version of Troy myth is kinda realistic one. Agammenon was decipted as a conqueror, and generally conquerors are adult man (the only exception is Alexander). Not 100% the poem, but very smart path, IMO.

[@nihilsinedeonihilsinedeo3137]

@@lokhuspokhus8412 Agamemnon started his campaign at around 25 max 30, by the time he reached Troy he would've been in his mid fourties. He can still be one hell of a guy in his 40's. Not old and fat. But regardless its his whole character which is poorly depicted, for the reasons above.

[@ΣωκράτηςΚουτρούμπας]

Αs a greek, thank you, you absolutely get it. I 100% agree , that the scene where Priam visists Achilles' tent is the whole meaning of the poem. Achilles sees in Priam his own father and he understands, that soon, his father will be a grieving old man as well and for all his might, he can't do anything about that. The choice of having Peleas being already dead makes no sense at all. Achilles should empathize with Priam BECAUSE Peleas is still alive.. He now sees that all the glory he was seeking is his now, his name will last forever but in the end, it can't bring Patroclus back and it can't save his father from this dreadful fate of having to mourn his own son! So he chooses for the first time in his life to NOT be a proud crybaby, but instead.. to forgive! Forgive his fallen enemy Hector, forgive the Trojan king Priam who is the leader of his enemies, forgive even Agamemnon, but above all, forgive himself for not being able to save his friend because of his pettiness and spite, for it was not Hector the one who truly killed Patroclus, but Achilles' pride.. And that is what Iliad is all about. Arrogance and rage are hubris, and they take the better of any man, no matter how great he is. Also, the scale.. COME ON!! The whole war lasts about a month in the movie, WHY would such a short lived event echo through the ages? Everything feels small and insignificant except from maybe the battle scenes. Couldn't they give Thetis' prophesy a more ritualistic scene or something? It had to be a walk on the beach? like wtf?

[@matteogozzi7101]

I have carefully read the Iliad and I have carefully watched the movie..and I totally disagree with your statements here. You start from a mistaken point of view, as if Troy should be the exact representation of the Iliad..but this is not the intent of the director (by the way they called it Troy, not Iliad), neither it would have been wise to do so. The Iliad is too long and complex to be completely "poured" into a single movie, and it is also too symbolic and fantastic to be portrayed into a movie. In Troy, important decisions have been made to create a new original plot out of the book, trying to preserve its main themes and facts, a part for the trascendent parts that would have led to a completely different type of film as if they are described into the book. And so does Troy with success. To make some example: any of the facts related to the greek gods, in the way they are described in the Iliad, would have made the movie as a fantasy-movie, in which some gods come down from their temple and take direct part of the battle. How do you show that? Another example: Achilles choice remains equally important and unchanged from the book to the movie, and your critics about Peleo is not really getting the topic: his father is not crucial in that decision; it is what Achilles wants for himself: the glory or a happy life, a two-ways decision that the gods asked to him already in the past. Last example: what you said about the duel between Achilles and Hector doesn't really change the pathos. Showing 5-10 minutes of additional "tortures" to the corpse of Hector was not necessary, the images they put speaks for themselves. And the central point is captured: Achilles has taken his decision and that goes for his doom. His identification with Patroclus and Hector has been decided as "cousin" and "brother", as he call Hector while he is covering his corpse for Priam. Last comment: what I really don't like about your approach is that you never considered the important script of the movie, neither all his merits. You completely ignore the fact that some of the greatest experts in the Iliad and the greek poems collaborated to the making of the movie. They didn't ignore, they knew and they took decisions. Troy is full of memorable lines and great scenes. Epics shines in it, and so are great characters moving across a marvellous scenography. The soundtrack is touching, the duel between Achilles and Hector is one of the best ever portrayed in a movie, the acting is excellent, the usage of the camera is fantastic and deep emotions and situations shine through the entire film. We should have more movies of this level of quality.

[@bubbagump3588]

Well put

[@fernandomaron87]

Agreed. My brother who is graduated in history, and is someone who studied Homer's work deeply, said to me that for a Hollywood movie, the character of Achilles is somehow very accurate with the book's Achilles.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Thanks for your comment, but where did I ever say Troy aimed to be an exact copy of the Iliad? It's obvious that it was never the intention of the filmmakers or the writer. But the film still contains almost all of the major plot points in the Iliad (the Achilles vs Agamemnon to Achilles vs Hector plotline), which is why a comparison can be illuminating, and reveal to us how it could have been a more powerful story, that made more sense. And why on earth would the Iliad (minus the gods) be "too complex" and "too symbolic"? "Too much fantasy"? I also never said the film had to include gods, so I've no idea why you're bringing that up. The critique I've presented is still relevant with the gods removed. The Iliad has a much simpler, shorter storyline than the one in Troy. The Iliad begins when Achilles becomes angry, and ends when he's no longer angry, while Troy contains most of what what's called "the epic cycle". The film does not preserve the main theme of the Iliad, which is anger, the dangers of anger, and how to end violence caused by anger - which I've laid out in the essay. Your point here makes no sense. If you don't think real anger (torture or otherwise) isn't important to the Iliad or the character of Achilles, you simply haven't understood the poem. How do I know? Because Homer tells us in the first line, that this is first and foremost a story about anger: "Sing, Goddess, Achilles' rage, Black and murderous, that cost the Greeks Incalculable pain, pitched countless souls Of heroes into Hades' dark..." Does this sound like what we receive in the Troy? One punch? It doesn't reveal to us he's a man who's stuck in revenge-mode, which scholars of the Iliad calls it. If you think the father, Peleus is not relevant to the choice of Achilles, I suggest you go back to the source material. And do you know why I know he's important? Again, because Homer tells us! Hermes tells Priam the only way to reach Achilles and make him give up Hector is through his father. The final scene has everything to do with his father and seeing his own father in Priam - it has nothing to do with him thinking of Hector as a "brother". It makes absolutely no sense that his perception of Hector would change this way. It's poor writing in exchange for a fancy line. The only thing I agree with in your comment is that the film has great choreography.

[@matteogozzi7101]

@@CinemaAutopsy I didn't write that the anger is not important in the Iliad. The theme of anger is conveyed in a specific way: you clearly get that Achilles stop to fight the trojans because of the anger related to the Agamennon's behaviour, and so that he gets back to fight because of the anger due to the loss of Patroclus. You also get for the whole movie that it is very difficult for him to manage his emotions and specifically anger, until the visit of Priam, when he gets a sort of inner conversion. But to deep dive even more the theme of anger, as you should probably know, it would be' necessary to involve Apollo, because the anger in the Iliad pass through him. But this brings back again on my point. Regarding Peleo then, in a movie it is much more risky to link the key choices of the protagonist to a character that you don't physically shows, while in the book this is much easier. The essence of Achilles is well represented, even with its necessary adaptations compared to the book.

[@nikeshinning763]

Good points; but this video essay statement still stands, key themes that gave inmense meaning to the Epic were not included and this hurts the Movie.

[@andrewvincent7299]

The reason why the writer didn't understand the Illiad because the writer of Troy was none other than one half of the showrunners of Game of Thrones. David Benioff. The guy is totally arrogant and smug and probably thought what he came up with in Troy was better than Homer's Illiad.

[@James-rb5fu]

I think it was better adaptation for a 2-3h movie tbh

[@Yunghamz]

While benioff butchered the ending of a game of thrones, i'm afraid it is impossible to make a movie on the iliad

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

@@YunghamzImpossible because Bean Counters dont think it would make money.

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

Benioff also wrote X Men Origins Wolverine. He has to be one of the worst Screenwriters out there.

[@brunobertrand9805]

Jewish guy destroying aryan epics. An old and predictable outcome.

[@varunchandrasekaran9245]

Given the time in which this movie was made (early 2000s), I think it was a pretty solid film adaption of the book. The duels were especially well done and had me on the edge of mye seat. I watched it in the theatre when it came out, and though I knew it had flaws, I enjoyed it. The scope of the story though, needs either a trilogy or a mini-series. We need characters like Diomedes, Aeneas, and a more accurate portrayal of Menelaus.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

The choreography is no doubt one of the strong sides to this film !

[@bengough6772]

It needs, probably a 5-10 part series with really strong writing that makes the violence have real weight and sorrow. The film is fun, it looks good and the fight scenes are cool...but thats it lol

[@a.v.d.s.2216]

Diomedes fighting Ares and WOUNDING the God of War is something that I wish I could see in an adaptation

[@tommaxson9798]

How about Queen Penthesilea and her 12 Amazon warriors who volunteer to fight on the side of Troy.

[@varunchandrasekaran9245]

Diomedes was so cool. He basically has a whole chapter to himself in the Iliad.@@a.v.d.s.2216

[@danielchristy527]

80% of the problems here can be serviceably solved in a 2004 movie by simply setting up Achilles/Patroclus better so there is more RAGE and more power in Priam/Achilles scene.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Yeah it doesn't require big rewrites. That's the sad part. Just a few details that make a big difference.

[@camillehunt8815]

@@CinemaAutopsy The book was good, but the movie left out that part.

[@nekonao9471]

I love how you described achilles as a "proud crybaby", fits him so well lol

[@ahandfulofpain.]

He is a proud cry-baby already though-

[@TheGarlicfather]

No he is not he is just his own boss a lion who does what he wants not a sheep who follows the orders of fools and if you see that as a cry baby you have a ver disoriented perception king Agamemnon is the real cry baby here

[@illuminati7767]

Yeah, lol they left out my boi diomedes...way more badass than achilles

[@ahandfulofpain.]

@@illuminati7767 agreed

[@Ryan_Winter]

Achilles is a sociopathic narcissist. His only reason to be there was to make a name for himself by killing people who rather would have stayed home, had they not been forced into this war by the circumstances. Vanity was Archilles motivation, not loyalty, because he despised Agamemnon and everyone who bowed to him.

[@venalleader2909]

To each their own. I've read the Iliad multiple times, including a contextual analysis as part of a college course many years ago, and I think Troy is a great cinematic adaptation of the epic.

[@markcoroneos7811]

Agreed. I think the fact they were able to adapt it in a way which removes the gods as main actors and still make to story flow speaks well of the writers. Definitely one of my favourite ‘historical’ movies.

[@docsmithdc]

Agreed.It is understandable that the story would have to have been "streamlined".I have the director's cut and I liked it -thought it was great and thoughtful.

[@VVeltanschauung187]

It's better than the movie: has more action, glory, & diverse array of characters lmao. You can't compare the two

[@markcoroneos7811]

@@VVeltanschauung187 if they’d done an unabridged adaptation it would have turned out like ‘clash of the titans’. And we all know how hard that movie bombed (rightly so, it was terrible).

[@VVeltanschauung187]

@@markcoroneos7811 honestly the book itself is just great. same idea how anime shouldn't be made a live action adaptation, great on its own but needs to be more popular among masses

[@MrWadewynn]

This film was a reimagining of the iliad where Hector is the true hero of the story where his wife and son are spared so he never truly is defeated. Its a nice thought

[@2957andy]

I understand and find a lot of merit in what you said… I also believed achilles also struggled immensely with accepting his destiny… I think Brad captured a lot of what achilles was suffering with..

[@Ibbles926]

This is one of my favourite character analysis’ on Achilles and the Trojan war ever!

[@Lauruniaskieriii]

This movie is my ultimate favourite(even though it’s inaccurate), it made me fall in love with Greek mythology and history as well as reading the Iliad and the Odyssey and other classics!

[@bobmcgahey1280]

no bk 9 he can be a many of great courtesy

[@adalke7520]

I think the movie makes the characters look stupid. A horny lover, a rage-mad king, and a selfish soldier. Only hector is saved. That is not the picture in Homer at all, where all have their motivations, past, and are noble. Great video.

[@HarrierDubois]

Watched Troy last night and it’s crazy that this film came out 16 years ago. The best part was Sean Been as Odysseus. Film is overall ok/good but you can tell they made this film for the box office money.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Actually I think Sean Bean would have been a great Achilles. Considering what he did as Boromir, I can see him doing a much better Achilles. Although the writing still wouldn't really give him much room to bring out the more emotional side of the character.

[@veamstream]

how did you avoid copyright, I'm getting non stop strikes on this video :/

[@Epic4Evr1990]

If they had Hector stealing and wearing Achellis’ armor it would have made Hector seem less honorable. And that’s how we see him as honorable, it’s what made us like him so much. I think him stealing the armor would have diminished his integrity. I get it for the symbolism, but because of how they set up Hectors character in the film, him stealing armor would’ve seemed out of character.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

I disagree. I think it would have made him more complex and interesting. People are full of contradictions and that's what makes good drama. :)

[@docflights]

@@CinemaAutopsy but he already has many complications due to his devotion to his brother above the rational sense turn him and Helen in

[@Subtopankoklol]

@@CinemaAutopsy contradiction yes but not complex

[@jesusdelcanto9715]

The movie came out when I was in highschool. I knew even back then it had many flaws as a book adaptation, the lack of gods comes to mind. However, I think it's really cool as an action/adventure film and a good introduction to Homer or classical literature in general. I recently heard a scholar praising these pop culture productions, in this way.

[@breeze.e9035]

Incredible analysis, edited perfectly as well.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Seems some Troy fans are butthurt by this character analysis, so it's nice to hear you liked it !

[@breeze.e9035]

@@CinemaAutopsy I enjoyed your discussion about the symbolism of the armour, and the subsequent deaths of Patroclus, Hector and Achilles… I’m almost inspired to do a reread and deep dive into the Iliad again. Maybe once I’m finally done with my university exams haha.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

@@breeze.e9035 it's an interesting subject! And quite complicated, but should be easy to find some research on "sympathetic identification". Myths are full of it! The same idea exists in Hercules too, for example, who has his head in the mouth of a lion thanks to his lion helmet - also an expression of self sacrifice. Happy reading !

[@histman3133]

I love the Iliad and for me personally Hector is the real hero in the Iliad. Idk for a good chunk of the epic all Achilles does is bitch and moan in his tent due to Briseis being taken away. His countrymen are fighting and dying while he sits and sulks and when Agamemnon finally agrees to return Briseis on top of showering him with gifts if he would return to the war the mighty Achilles refuses them all. Even the return of Briseis is not enough to convince him. Overall the story is amazing. Truly an ancient masterpiece. Both this and the Odyssey.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

I dont disagree with your statement, but the flaws in Achilles that you mention is the reason I find him so fascinating. I enjoy his bitching and moaning, sulking to his mommy for favors, and how it's combined with being the "best of the acheans" (on the battlefield).

[@histman3133]

@@CinemaAutopsy I suppose you're right. I mean I do find him to be a great character because of his flaws and even reading about him when he was sulking or spending time with Patroclus beneath it all I knew for a fact that he was a great warrior. I just wish that it didn't take so long for him to shine and when he did it was motivated by vengeance. But through it all maybe because Hector was there since the beginning it's the reason why he is such a hero to me. Despite it all the characters all have their depth even great Achilles.

[@histman3133]

@@CinemaAutopsy Even Phoenix, a close kin of Achilles, was trying to convince him and telling him to get back into the fight but to no avail.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

@@histman3133 Hector has many admirable traits for sure, but there's also a kind of naivety to his character. Homer does not shy away from calling him stupid - as in the showdown with Achilles where he says "Athena robbed Hector of his wits" - an indirect way of saying he made a stupid decision. To some extent he represents blind loyalty to his city, a nice contrast to Achilles who mostly fights for himself :)

[@histman3133]

@@CinemaAutopsy I agree wholeheartedly. I also found Paris to be a coward. Much like in this movie the Paris in the Iliad is someone who cannot handle the reality of war. Unlike his brother. I get that when Troy is under threat he finally musters up the courage to leave his residence and go with his brother to the fight but throughout I just found him to be someone who unable to handle the war without divine intervention. Like when he fights with Menelaus and the only thing that can save him is Aphrodite. I also get that he really does want to be a warrior and that he does want to prove himself. At least that's what I can see as far as I am in the book (I'm on book 11 as of this moment).

[@grimmer2005]

Its fun how you often see in the movie, that the "armor" is only rubber. They should have had both, so that in the scenes where it bends too much, and where they dont fight, the armor should have been real sturdy metal.

[@arthurneddysmith]

Sure, it was the Bronze Age, but not everything was made from Bronze. All metals were layered over leather or cloth. This is especially for archers or lighter troops. The faster the movement required, the less metal used.

[@grimmer2005]

@@cactusmalone Because it doesnt look like leather, its supposed to look like metal! Back then, leather didnt look like metal.

[@kimharveyforastero6890]

To be honest for a guy like me that live in asia and dont really know about western mythology, This movie is a masterpiece. Seeing brad pitt as a savage warrior and having a amazing story at the same time is just great. I mean come on the poem and the film are both make believe.

[@user-jt6rh8xy6n]

It’s a great movie but I wouldn’t say a masterpiece, to each their own I guess.

[@JordanReedYT]

“The Passion Of The Christ” is a masterpiece! Troy is just a slightly above average film, that leaves out the majority of context and accuracy for no reason.

[@Ryan_Winter]

The Illiad is a drama about human nature, but this film is a flat action movie set in antiquity. I can't spot that "amazing story" you're talking about. They removed three quarters of the characterization pieces, turning it into a petty squabble between childish people, but they left in the stupid trojan horse.

[@aselliofacchio]

You have some form of retardation

[@florianpierredumont4775]

I think a way to understand TROY is to watch it from the < King, Warrior, Lover, Magician > point of view. Achilles is an infantile Warrior who lives like a teenager, with an obsession for glory and anger management problems, but becomes a hero thanks to his relation with Briseis, and the dialog with Priam after Hector's death. Paris is an infantile lover, who acts like a spoiled child, always had what he wanted, don't care about consequences, only his love and pleasure, and don't want to give his "conquest" back. He becomes an adult, and a King in the end, after speaking with Priam (in the scene of the sword), thanks to his relationship with Helen, who loves and comforts him, and when he saves Briseis, and protect his people while they flee Troy. Agammemnon is a dark King (the tyrant), very clever and cunning, but without morals or mercy. In many ways, the only "full" and complete men in the movie are Priam and Hector (king/prince, fathers, husbands, warriors, wise men). They are calm and confident, have a code of honor, love their family, take care of their people, and are ready to sacrify for the cause. The women, in the other hand, start from different stages, but end at the same level : Helen is the loving woman, but becomes more and more a Queen archetype, giving comfort and wisdom to men, even considering going back to Menelas (= sacrifying herself) to end the war. In the end, she stays with Paris to guide the Trojans. Andromaque is the mother, the wife and the mature woman, she has to let the love of her life (and father of her son) to fight and die, endures the death of Hector, mourns him, yet still demonstrates strengh and determination, and saves the people of Troy in the end. Briseis is the child/teenager girl and the mystic woman, she is "married" to the gods and thus can not choose a man for husband, she "comes to adulthood" thanks to his relation with Achilles ("You have been my peace in my life of war"), helps him, directly of indirectly to become a better man, and becomes a woman at the same time. In many aspects, they are the Romeo and Juliet couple of the movie, both young and clumsy in a world they are discovering, that is adulthood. As a conclusion, I would say TROY is a movie about epic and battles, but also about being an adult person, a parent, and a good leader.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

If you're a big fan of Homer's poems, like I am, check out this essay covering his other poem, the Odyssey and how it compares to O Brother, Where Art Thou?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gaWnl6dsoLZ2aJo

[@sakisathan]

Troyans were also Greeks. Troy was a colony of Megara, a city that still exists 100 miles from Athens.

[@WaltPowellsAIProductions]

Misleading title. Troy did not fail. It is one of the best of all time

[@donaldarthur3497]

Achilles sounds bi-polar to me. Up side down side. Death and destruction on the down side. Love and honesty among the gods on the up side. My opinion im not a historical scholar. Loved the movie. Thanks for all the great comments and history lesson that some left.

[@danielchristy527]

I think it would have been ok to leave out Achilles prayer to Zeus to hurt the Greeks if they expressed Achilles had that desire in his heart (even if he wavered later). In a secular take on the Iliad, things done by the gods can be psychologized to be the mental desires and actions of humans. The film did a good job of this but should have used the technique here. However I agree, we need more Patroclus to justify much more rage from Achilles. It’s the whole point of the story, not the inevitable fate of all mankind being death (compelling as that is and potentially more moving to a 2004 audience). Also his choice should be presented when in Troy already as you said. In the film he’s already ok with dying and it works for the film in its own right with how Pitt played the character, but makes the decision to come out of his tent less important so hurts the ending. I don’t think they need the second prayer to Zeus or the new armor to show that or his identification with Patroclus though. As others have said, a more complex Hector who flaunts his desecration of Patroclus doesn’t not help the story on screen in 2004. Setting up Patroclus relationship with Achilles would have taken care of the identification problem on its own. I debate whether making Achilles more accurately pious matters or not. In the Iliad he fears the gods but in the film he doesn’t. It makes him farrr les epic so hurts the film, but making his religious would also destroy the secular premise of the film that powerfully illuminated the truth of how the archaic gods were reflections of humanity’s own understanding of itself. Pitt makes the character interesting, but it’s not quite Achilles he’s playing. 7/10. MORE RAGE PLEASE. If there was more rage, the end scene with O’Toole would be fine without the dead/alive Peleus distinction.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Thanks for your input. There are definitely different ways to solve these issues and it doesn't even have to be done exactly as in the book, like you say.

[@danielchristy527]

@@CinemaAutopsyyou made a great video here, thanks. Revisiting it now.

[@TheBringerOfRain]

Idk but Troy is an Epic in my book.

[@DCeasedbrickbuilds]

Shield of Achilles shows what he really fought for…a normal life in peace times. The movie kinda screwed up the character, but, Pitt did a fantastic job.

[@Ryan_Winter]

Nonsense, his mother told him precisely what would happen and nobody was able to force him to participate. He could have had that normal life, but he didn't want it. He rather wanted to kill people who didn't have the same choice and die himself in the process of making a name for himself.

[@KevinJohnson-cv2no]

Achilles never fought for a normal life lmao, literally the one thing he wanted to avoid

[@DCeasedbrickbuilds]

@@KevinJohnson-cv2no read The Obessey. Homer describes his shield.

[@A-Kaila]

Man!.. i was bawling like a bitch when Hector was killed...tied behind Achille's chariot and dragged away... Troy is one of the best movies I've ever seen

[@irawilliams343]

I get it that a lot think this movie is a disgrace because it did not stay true to Tha Illiad (Patroclus was made as Achilles' cousin, the absence of the Greek gods, etc.), but it is iconic. Doing a remake of this is just downright impossible. Hector was without a doubt my favorite couple while Achilles and Briseis were the ones who brought the romance to the film.

[@tommaxson9798]

To pull off a film that follows more closely Homer’s canon material. “Troy” would have required at least 3 separate films (ala The Lord of the Rings) to pull it off. We are talking about a 10 year conflict here with all of the Greek Gods drama included. I’m not sure if Warner Bros. was prepared at the time, to support such a project. It is unfair to knock Wolfgang Petersen for cutting considerable corners to fit his required time slot. What Petersen did do is create an exciting fast paced condensed version of one of the greatest adventures ever written. One day someone will have the support to create this magnificent story on the big screen, in it’s entirety. What Peter Jackson could accomplish with such a tale!

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Honestly just do the Iliad and Odyssey, considering those have a written story

[@nihilsinedeonihilsinedeo3137]

To be honest I wish someone did a series just like The Romance of The Three Kingdoms, I found it impeccable, albeit I haven't yet read the book.

[@hubertvancalenbergh9022]

I've always been an admirer of the actor who plays Agamemnon. He's always fabulous, I especially recall him from impersonating Reichsmarhall Göring in the film Nuremberg.

[@bengough6772]

Brian Cox

[@heysue531]

I feel they took a Hercules route. The one with the rock in. It plays off a story where he is not a Demi god and the stories (though true) were completed with a group of allies

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Which is an interesting interpretation but hell we've barely had an accurate representation of the original story

[@canyildiz5966]

ive also read both works by homer, and oddly, my opinion of the film's portrayal of these characters is converse to yours. i think the casting was absolutely brilliant, and though a lot was changed for the convenience of storytelling, this is absolutely necessary. how do you fit a 10-year mythical war (with characters constantly acting out of character and godly intervention) into a 2 and half hour film, as a historical epic and drama?

[@CinemaAutopsy]

are you sure you read the actual Iliad, and not a version adapted for kids? because if you did, you would have noticed that the Iliad only begins in the final year of the war and lasts only a few weeks. Troy on the other hand contains much of what's called the "epic cycle" (the theft of Helena, the wooden horse etc.), which means it's a waaay bigger story than what's in the Iliad, so I don't really get your point here. Also, where did I say you needed to include the gods? it's a critique of what they did to the character Achilles and his plotlines.

[@filipelucciano]

I agree... Movie language is different than a VIII century BC poem. Homer used the perfect language to make a greek VIII century BC poem, and David Benioff used the perfect language to make a good movie. It is one of the best movies I ever watched, but it had to butcher historical and artistic facts to achieve it's goals. If you guys want to watch Illiad accuracy please watch some documentary, I bet there's plenty good ones out there. It's a good video to show the discrepancies between poem and movie, but I diverge about demonizing the movie writting.

[@filipelucciano]

@@CinemaAutopsy resuming what Can said above, they took poetic license to make Achilles do what they wanted him to do in order to sell a movie for the hoi polloi (hope you got the reference), and it worked. They didn't want to fill the cines whit only history or literature critics.

[@esmeralda1703]

The Iliad deserved a grand adaptation as war and peace that was justifiably adapted by Serguey Bondarchuk. In all its grandeur. And if a director wants, he can make a faithful adaptation. France in Le comte de Monte-Cristo (1979) with jacques weber make extremely faithful adaptation of the book by Alexandre Dumas. Reading the history of Princess Nest ferch Rhys who was kidnapped and compared to Helen of Troy, she returns to her husband. I compare how stupid Helen's changes were, inserting a crude romanticism.

[@brunobertrand9805]

​​@@CinemaAutopsyThe theft of Helen? The Troy movie turned this into a stupid love story and Menelaus her husband is killed early when in fact e is in the Odyssey where he gets Helen back, Helen who calls herself a "bitch" for what she did! Menelaus say in Troy that he will kill her when he will get her back! Troy is feminist garbage, whenever a main character gets hit we have a full close up on the face of his woman... 😅 It's a terribly bad movie, and I'm being generous. Hollywood should have been burned down in the ending, not the city of Troy.

[@viktormonov9397]

I love the movie because it's a nore realistic story, not being about Gods and magic. We've seen movies like Wrath of Titans and I'm glad Troy's not like that. The movie is awesome and for me it's a good adaptation because it got the main themes right - anger issues, being a good man and being remembered, etc. Illiad is not even that good and being 2000 years old, I think it's not a particularly well written piece. The film, however, being modernised and beautifully written makes for a better story - realistic and entertaining. And if any of the characters didn't go as originally directed or not developed enough, then watch the Director's Cut, you'll think it's a masterpiece

[@lmn1871]

Troy is a decent movie, but are you really going to tell me that its better than the iliad? Are you going to tell me the iliad is a bad poem? I don't know if im speaking with a troll or a clown

[@nihilsinedeonihilsinedeo3137]

@@lmn1871 true, this guy is mad and only seeks entertainment, he hasn't yet seen enough cliche movies to apreciate the ancient works of art.

[@greek1237]

I think the best film version of the Iliad happens to be 1962's Fury of Achilles. That was a great film.

[@widlairejerome4729]

I think the film aged pretty well. It's over 20 years and we still talk about it.

[@fgaitanm]

Patroclus was his lover, that's what makes him crazy

[@arthurneddysmith]

Troy is a secular representation of what the real Trojan war may have been. It deliberately strips the superstition. You can't appreciate the movie without keeping this in mind.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

It's irrelevant for the points I made.

[@thomaspriest5278]

Yeah, I've always really liked the idea that the movie plays with in effectively taking away the mythical aspects and replacing it with an ambiguity about Achilles' immortality and how it's possibly just constructed from his incredible combat ability. But video is analysing the film as an adaptation of the Illiad, so from that perspective it is valid criticism.

[@charlidevnet4404]

@@thomaspriest5278 Like remaking the Ten Commandments without God. Kind of leaves out the whole message.

[@pizzahutmobile]

It was a good take on the story.. I want to see an Odessy sequel to this film

[@CinemaAutopsy]

I would like an Odyssey adaptation too! But with a better writer than the one involved in Troy:)

[@pizzahutmobile]

@@CinemaAutopsy i feel like movies like this are too short to condense all the layers and side plots without making it long, it should be multiple movies

[@CinemaAutopsy]

@@pizzahutmobile or a mini series :)

[@andrewmaclean9810]

@@pizzahutmobile I think specifically the Odyssey would make a great TV series especially as its very chapter like, more so then the story of Achilles is. To be clear though a mini series. 1 season of an ~hr long episodes, not milk it for 8 seasons type shit

[@kurvos]

The Odyssey 1997 is a mini-series that's the best version of the story I think we could ever get. Not sure why all of you seem to ignore that one.

[@larrybomber83]

Thank You so much for clarifying that for me. I had read the Iliad a very long time ago, and the Movie was hard to follow, but you put everything back the way it should be, and for that, I Thank You.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Happy to rejig your memory. :)

[@ananda_dlg]

This movie just made Patroclus look so unimportant like wtf

[@henrikg1388]

Personally, I think this movie is a masterpiece. No, it doesn't follow Homer's poem and it is much more "secular", but it managed to catch the main theme, that is the meeting between Achilles and Priam (Brad Pitt and Peter O'toole) in such a masterful way, that it is just flabbergasting. That scene in itself, will go down in movie history, as will the duel between Hector and Achilles. My point being that this loose interpretation is perfectly acceptable, considering it's high points. It catches the essence of the story.

[@Miller09095]

David Benioff was the writer so none of this is surprising. He removed plenty of the fantastical elements from Game of Thrones too.

[@hubertvancalenbergh9022]

Where in The Iliad does Homer mention Patroclus as Achilles' cousin? I've always thought they were lovers, plain and simple. It also offers a deeper explanation of Achilles' anger

[@CinemaAutopsy]

He doesnt mention it. But its known from their lineage. They have the same (great)grandmother, Aegina.

[@lmn1871]

Homer never said that they were lovers, he even says that they slept in different beds with women

[@ArihasIbib]

Key Differences in the Film "Troy" 1. Menelaus' Death: • Film: Killed by Hector during the duel with Paris. • Myth: Survives the Trojan War, returns to Sparta with Helen. 2. Agamemnon's Death: • Film: Killed by Briseis during the sack of Troy. • Myth: Survives the Trojan War, killed by Clytemnestra and Aegisthus upon his return to Mycenae.

[@ronanjakepasay4398]

3.Paris' Death Film: Survives The War together with Helen and Andromache Myth: Was Killed By Philoctetes By Archers

[@danielchristy527]

On Achilles’ choice: you say making it about going to war instead of home is worse as it doesn’t relate to film’s central conflict. But the film’s central conflict is not same as Iliad (Achilles honor w Agamemnon). It’s about which philosophy of war and valor will win out between Achilles and Hector. For this change, the choice at beginning works.

[@Lauren-yr1rz]

Hey, I know this comment comes a year late but thank you so much for making this video. It's an absolutely brilliant deconstruction and you've encapsulated all the major issues I had with the film, as well as raising a few ideas I hadn't considered and am really grateful to have the opportunity to think about. When I first watched the film after reading the Iliad, I was really disappointed--not so much because of the superficial inaccuracies/differences but because of the way, as you've so excellently encapsulated, the writers seem to have really missed the heart of the poem and wound up misrepresenting its intended meaning. The Iliad is one of my favourite stories and I have spent a lot of time studying it and the various attempts at adapting it & the Trojan War. So, thank you for your video. I really enjoyed it and I'm grateful and appreciative of the time and effort you put into it.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Thanks! This video mostly pissed off the fanboyz of what I think is a very average movie, so I'm glad to hear this reached someone :)

[@Lauren-yr1rz]

@@CinemaAutopsy I was really surprised to see so many crabby defensive comments! Hope they didn't get you too down.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

@@Lauren-yr1rz I knew they were coming xD

[@BlancoDevil]

Absolutely facilitating! Love your analysis.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Happy to hear that !

[@edydon]

The crucial moment is when Hector chose to kill Patroclus. Had he shown mercy, it would have destroyed Achilles' image and by extension Achilles. You can't strut around as an invincible warrior when your life is beholden to another's mercy. The imaginative false "Hector spared Achilles" would have overwhelmed a mealy-mouthed incredulous truth "it wasn't me, it was some guy dressed up as me." There's even a passage in the Iliad that talks of Hector "dealing life" i.e. sparing enemies - as if to preempt any objection that to not kill Patroclus / Achilles would have been tribally impossible.

[@raptormage2209]

Apollo had disarmored Patroclos so everyone knew it was him tho, before that even i think some knew too like Sarpedon.

[@OmegaTrooper]

Great job on this video! Very well stated points on the film. Great editing as well.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

thank you, sir! Glad you liked it. If you enjoy Homer, there's a couple other videos on my channel related to him.

[@howdareyouexist]

dont disagree but it is an entertaining movie that is quite rewatchable

[@FredCDobbs-er4qd]

Nobody cared about Paris and Helen, just a backdrop for the violence. The performances by the actors were very well done. I give it 4 stars. I took off the one star for including Paris and Helen. He was a wimp and she was too skinny.

[@charlidevnet4404]

Take another star off for skipping the Gods. Had to hve a Tojan Wa at a ll without the machinations of the Goddess Aphrodite.

[@Apollo-hi1jj]

We are all expecting way too much from a Hollywood movie, thought the writing of Patroclus still makes me extremely annoyed..

[@jeremiaas15]

Very good points. Presumably. I saw Troy when it first came out and since then every few years I attempt to rewatch it. Could never get through the basic inaccuracies of the costumes, military tactics and the bonkers geopolitics.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

... and that's on top of all the story problems.

[@LaitoChen]

I watched the movie without reading the book. Good thing too. It would have ruined a pretty decent movie. I thought it was a nice action Romantic flick. 😂

[@harrylipscomb6343]

I think Achilles is also able to relate to Priam in the final book as they are both mourning the person closest to them

[@goodeye6373]

You missed out it is a Hollywood Movie. Meant to be entertaining not so much historically accurate. It was from a Poem. I think you have a lot of leeway from a poem.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Lots of Hollywood movies that doesn't think its audience are idiots

[@layla-8369]

I had never considered some of these themes (mostly the ritual identification/substitution), very interestng analysis!!

[@emeraldknight2342]

In the ending credits of this movie it's clearly stated: INSPIRED by Homer's Iliad.

[@polatiger4765]

"Troy" is a movie, it's purposes are give work to people, entertain people and make them spend money on it. It's art and not a history lesson. The same goes for "The Iliad". It's a poem and not a historical manuscript. Gods don't exist, therefore it's art only or crazy theory of a person. Anyways movies are always rewritten/changed from the source material, as not to be a copy. And it's good that way.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

If the purpose is to entertain people, shouldn't the writing be as good as possible ?

[@polatiger4765]

@@CinemaAutopsy Yeah, and it's written well or at least good enough. I know LOTR is really well made, but I enjoy Troy more than it. Because it's more entertaining.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

@@polatiger4765 if you enjoy the movie, then great! That's the only thing that matters. The purpose here was to show how I think they could have made a better movie by keeping the essence of the scenes they got the material from.

[@Toni62R]

I love the film - the power of Achilles, the bravery of Hector and the coolness of Odysseus. And - I also love the original. I first read the Ilias as a boy in the Seventies...

[@XYZasw]

The nowadays adaptations of the greatest stories feels like someone just entered the vault filled with amazing work of arts like realistic statues, golden and silver jewelry, coins, finest armors and weapons, rich clothes made of the most expensive materials etc. etc. but because he can't estimate the value of all this all, he just takes the bunch of dollars laying in the corner. He is happy because he got something but he don't realize how much he left...

[@bennyworm4353]

there is not the scene of Crise asking for his daughter because Briseide and Criseide are the same person basically 😭😭😭

[@jonchampion8720]

You left out how Apollo kept Hectors body from being destroyed

[@CinemaAutopsy]

You're right! I left out a lot of things to keep it focused on how they changed the theme of the book, not ever detail of the plot.

[@Brainlessbian]

I think that Troy is not that bad on his own, but after reading the Illiad it feels so weird, and I think I got mad with it more than once, specially with Helen and Paris being "in love" (I had to skip those scene bc I didn't have the stomach to watch them) Also removing every flaw from the majority of the characters like??? Why??? It was part of the humanity of the characters, what made us feel they were humans and not just cold, unrelatable mythological legends.

[@ignaciomunoz6753]

I think it is a futile effort, comparing Homer’s epic masterpiece with a commercial blockbuster for the glory of Brad Pitt. I tend to see it as a modern vision for a wide range of public, which accomplished a non pursued objective: making the legend of his heroes last a little longer. And it is a really entertaining movie on its own right. Let’s give it that.

[@giacomopala8389]

not to mention Achille's and Patroclo's relationship, quite more intimate in the original story

[@GratitudeAboveAll]

I think the movie is excellent, if not completely accurate. I also love Braveheart and it's ridiculous how inaccurate that is.

[@angloedu5499]

In the Iliad, by Homer, Patroclus was Achille’s boyfriend. The Greeks were often bisexual. It’s often not mentioned in Hollywood films. Imagine how angry one becomes if your man love is killed.

[@cremecreek7234]

AGAAKWH I KNOW!! Of course they had to make them family so they could get away with not making it ‘gay’ since their relationship is so deep and profound. I know this was made awhile ago but come on! If the Greeks didn’t care, I think a couple of film writers can as well😗

[@angloedu5499]

Hell hath no furry like a woman scorned! In today’s term, bitch! You better man up! Gangsta’s requiem. Some of the most violent ones are 80% straight. My old ex girlfriend had a temper beyond belief! I can attest to a woman’s wrath as more direct than a man’s. A woman can kill a man slowly but surely, but as men we just kill the whole country or family so the tree line ceases to exist. A woman can do this by abortion, remaining celibate, or childless.

[@dimitripapadopoulos3196]

@@cremecreek7234 but it’s not explicit. And they slept with women in the Iliad.

[@justicethedoggo3648]

​@@dimitripapadopoulos3196because sexuality wasn't a thing back then , sleeping with women was to reproduce mainly and necessary for men to pass on their genes . We are talking about romance and love here .

[@dimitripapadopoulos3196]

@@justicethedoggo3648 Romance did exist cause there are love poems and stories between men and women.

[@Francis-m2d]

Achilles is a wonderful example of an early type hero--one whose actions are rooted in their quest for honor and glory and the hell with anyone or anything else...I suppose to his credit, Homer recognized that such a figure would never truly grow...Achilles loses said honor and glory and comes to realize how little they mean...and...sulks. And sulks. He is aroused to action by the death of his close friend and when informed that following the death of Hektor his own life will end, he cares.... nothing....he has gone from being motivated by larger than life hubris to nihilistic indifference and on that note his miserable life ends...Hektor on the other hand is a hero in transition. He acknowledges to his wife how he hungers to always be in the forefront of the fighting but also accepts that he is the hope of the city and all rests on his weary shoulders...under the face of a personal doom he recognizes. So he has one foot in the past--honor and glory--and one foot in the future, the hero as existing to serve others--and in the end gets himself killed when he slips back into an early hero mold (too embarrassed to face the wives and mothers whose men have died due to his poor judgement). This is the gist of the story.

[@Francis-m2d]

I enjoyed watching this and you do a good job of representing your viewpoint(s) on the subject. But remember that even before the first scene opens in the film, they inform us this is "a film inspired by the Iliad" or words to that effect...it cannot be criticized for not being faithful to its source material when it is already acknowledging it is not a film meant to depict Homer's work. For the rest, I would go a different direction from your own: Achilles and Hektor have nothing in common except that they both represent types of tragedy: Achilles as a figure who has sacrificed everything only to find his honor and glory are practically worthless; he is a hollow, empty man who, after his mother warns him that shortly after the death of Hektor, comes his own death. He simply does not care anymore. Hektor's tragedy is that he knows he is as the Trojans keep saying, 'the hope of the city' but he knows in the end he is simply not capable of saving the city or his people; he heroically fights only to buy them some time.

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

For a film not intended to be based on it it certainly takes a lot from it. Hence why comparison is both inevitable and valid.

[@Francis-m2d]

@@Bu11yMagu1re In the sense of having fun, yeah, comparison is okay...but that's about it.

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

@@Francis-m2d How should it be judged then? Pray tell.

[@Francis-m2d]

@@Bu11yMagu1re How about on the acting...the script...the cinematography ...things like that.

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

@@Francis-m2d Ok lets see Acting:C- sorry I expect more from a cast like that Script:F even divorcing itself from the Iliad cant save the godawful script, then again its Benioff. Cinematography:B good but at the same time pretty overrated. Relative to the cast and budget its a very mediocre film.

[@gracefutrell1912]

Considering what happened the last time he said he was going to marry one of his daughters I think I can understand Achilles reasons why 😩

[@theravenking5930]

David Benioff he was a screenplay writer and him and his Brother if they’re doing adaptation For example The Iliad,they completely cut out all the meddling and turn it into a human drama were they outright limited as you can see in the Game of Thrones.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

That may have been a goal, and it's probably a good choice to cut the gods etc, but he either failed to understand the themes, or didn't bother to portray them, which is a main reason as to why the film is so uncompelling. From a storytelling perspective, there's no point in writing a scene with Priam and Achilles if he doesn't understand what it's about.

[@kaihiggins725]

@@CinemaAutopsy he literally had experts helping him out he didn't ignore it at all

[@CinemaAutopsy]

@@kaihiggins725 the script he wrote suggests otherwise

[@kaihiggins725]

@@CinemaAutopsy not really, it's a script that works for a film.

[@thetasurfers]

well we know the depth of writing Benioff is capable of just being taking a look at GoT season 8....

[@shivasrinivasan80]

I loved this movie. However, I would be critical if they made a movie called Mahabharata but deviated from important parts of the epic.

[@shukilevyandbrookesheildsl2638]

There's something about taking a work of literature and trying to create a story to be "more historically accurate" that bothers me. If fell the essence of what the story is about is lost when the key elements are dropped. This is the problem I also had with King Arthur starring Ian Gruffudd(?) and Keira Knightly.

[@groguuuyoda9479]

I actually like the decision that they made to not put the gods in the movie cuz they made the characters seem more competent and the movie looks more realistic

[@andrewsalvatore2174]

I Mean yeah Troy may not follow the illiad by heart but it's a thousand times better than fall of a city.

[@sqilorsong]

they just needed to display a closer relationship between patroclus and achilles! it would've made more anger

[@johnchao2422]

I thought the film’s adaptation was excellent, tho flawed. Thank you for the detailed analysis! I’m reading the poem now myself and see how many of the original’s themes have been corrupted to make it more digestible to a modern Hollywood audience. Still one of my favorite flicks tho

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Thanks for watching. I agree with you, and don't think preserving these themes would make it less "accessible". Compare it to the success of game of thrones, where they're happy to butcher characters in the same way Achilles does in the poem when he falls into his big rage. Happy reading !

[@johnchao2422]

@@CinemaAutopsy Honestly I would have preferred they stick closer to the original source, but hey. It's Hollywood, and that means mainstream focus, big budgets to justify, and lots of executives who need to sign off. I'm happy we got a product as good as we did, cuz it could have been so much worse. And since it was my first detailed introduction to the source material, I'm grateful for it!

[@justinchetham-strode5234]

The film is not meant to be a representation of the Iliad, which is mythological, and historically unreliable, having been written hundreds of years after the Trojan War. It was rather, a portrayal of how it might have played out in real life.

[@AnshumanKumar007]

Yep. I really find this movie really underrated as I tried to ground the fantasy parts of the story.

[@adriamaral300]

What destruction war brings. What unnecessary mourning.

[@henrythompson5224]

Paris

[@elrockerchido]

For me the Key word is “Inspired”. I get that people want a “true” representaion out of a fictional story, but for me this works better than the original poem filled with gods in the battle field. Some points are nit picking to the point of almost getting for granted that everyone got the same impressions of subjective ideas. But to each there own

[@livingbehind661]

its about his unending wrath....

[@livingbehind661]

it ends with him growing up and loving a good peasant girl or something and forgetting about the war...

[@lnsullivan422]

You want a good adaptation? Read The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller.

[@lmn1871]

Allosaurus had never seen such bullshit before

[@MrDukeSilverr]

The movie obviously turned the Illiad into popcorn galore, but they got the look and vibe so right, I wish they wouldve stayed true to the source material, woudlve been quite the epic

[@whogon]

Now I know someone will probably try to say that I'm being too critical or something but do you have any idea how frustrating and annoying it is to have some little millennial pretend like he's a subject matter specialist on Troy or Greece or history or anything really when he doesn't even know how to pronounce the word/name I mean this is one of the most remembered dudes in history. I mean obviously it was Odysseus but the real star was kind of Achilles--in The Iliad and the Odyssey actually it's been so long since I've read them I don't remember which part was in which book or whatever but I do remember the overall story and this is what deeply bothers me... We have access to every encyclopedia ever made we've got the internet that literally would take this guy 13 seconds to get on and check how to say the name Achilles which I'm sorry but he should already know even if you're just a person that has intelligence you would have had to almost figured this out at some point and yet he is just determined to mispronounce it. "Uh-kill-EASE". Thats it bro. What amazes me about this is that it same exact word/name, was an actual question on wheel of Fortune you can look this up on KZbin if you want like this guy should have because it only would have taken a couple minutes and he could have avoided the embarrassment that the God will a fortune had to go through... And get this it was not even a puzzle at that point because they had eliminated all letters so the actual word or phrase or whatever was up on the screen and all the person had to do was read off the word properly and it was just Achilles. It might have been like a sentence answer and achilles was in it but I'm pretty sure it was just the name Achilles. So when the host Pat sajak kind of laughs and jokes about how easy it would be for the guy to answer and win that round because the word had already been fully spelled out and there was no thinking involved and this was even more ironic because he was a college student they were doing like a college night type of thing I mean it just keeps getting funnier and crazier!! So this college student did not know who Achilles was apparently and mispronounced the name SO much, showing such ignorance that the judges had to actually tell him that he was wrong and then it moved to the next player who won the round with like no money. 😂 -- so I don't want to hear this argument about how he's from Lithuania or somethin--and again if this was like 1972 then I would say okay well you know he just wasn't taught that in school probably had some bad teachers or a bad education or whatever in a poor area of Alabama or somewhere out in the boonies in West Virginia or something.... But this is a guy that's literally creating videos that theoretically could have like three forms of revenue you've got embedded advertisements for like ridiculous pube shavers and stuff you've got KZbin advertisements that you have to hit the skip button to get through and then you got patreon. I'm not saying this guy necessarily is doing all that but he is sitting there trying to parade this knowledge that he got from probably watching someone else's KZbin video that did it much much better than this, and it would be very difficult to prove that he stole anything because all you have to do is say oh well it's a transformative work because it's got my voice saying everything--luxurious internet watch it's a very strange weird line as far as like plagiarism and stuff but anyway the point is, how could you not know the actual way to pronounce the name Achilles if you are trying to masquerade as a subject matter specialist about Achilles. The guy on wheel of Fortune who lost the answer even though it was spelled out with every letter in front of him, said "atch-ill-S". And then you could sort of like hear the air go out of the crowd sort of groaning like oh my God what an idiot... And then the next person wins the round. So I don't want to hear about how it's totally okay to mispronounce the word even though you're supposedly an expert on that word or subject. That's like me saying I'm an "expert" at flying planes, and then I come out and say, even Bragging and making a KZbin video, about how planes HAVE to go backwards, to take off. I mean I can sit there and believe it. I can try to coach myself to believe it, create videos about it, "brag about my knowledge" of it, I mean it's a free country I'm not saying you can't do this stuff I'm just saying why would you want to make a fool of yourself? Especially in public? I've always tried to avoid embarrassments, but I swear I see it over and over again you see it in like video games and how dumb movies and games have started to become so that it can appeal to a 12-year-old because they'll spend endless money of their parents on gifts and stuff because if they don't they can just whine and make their parents life hell if the parent doesn't have the kid in check ✅ like they should. And when times get hard adults are smart enough to buckle down and they don't sit there and make KZbin videos in a pandemic, they are buckling down and trying to save every dollar they can and make sure that they've got a job or if they lose this job they've got another job or whatever and they forgot to worry about their family and finances and all this other stuff so the last thing they care about is kids and their video games and see parents and older players don't spend the kind of money that a kid would so now everything is basically forced to be for kids, and then they know that kids have no standards and can't go out and really hire a team of lawyers for a bad game so they create half finished video games that they promise they'll finish later and I mean Madden literally got the lowest score of all time on metacritic 0.2 out of a total 10. That was the user score. Of course the reviewer score of so-called professional reviewers was like a 6 of 10. Anyway this is already too long but I just wanted to point out that just because you want to say something a certain way does not make it accurate. The fact that he could have taken 13 seconds to get on Google or KZbin and hear literally thousands of different pronunciations of this word, but didn't....but oh, just "take his word" for it, that he knows all the OTHER facts. Somehow he messed up the name of one of the most important figures in history, he wants to convince you that he's a subject matter specialist but he's unable to pronounce the word correctly which if he was on wheel of Fortune just like the other guy he would have failed the answer and it would have went to the next player if he had pronounced it the way he does in this video so you can criticize me and saying I'm being too critical but then you would be also being too critical wouldn't you? Especially since I'm correct and this guy's not, right?

[@CinemaAutopsy]

Instead of writing all that you could've just looked up the origin of the name ? These characters are not English, which I thought would be obvious to anyone who's watched it.

[@tonyatutorials6997]

It's very clear the movie has not any intention to take the Iliad seriously. They simply killed Menelaus right from the start...he not only survived the duel as well as he was the only one hero besides Odysseus to return home and live happy - even less troublesome than Odysseus.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

You're right!

[@raptormage2209]

Don't forget Ajax getting killed by Hector despite him dominating Hector in the illiad, if it wasn't for the intervention of Apollo , Ajax might've either mortally wounded Hector or straight up killed him.

[@baxterbrownentertainment]

Troy was a great movie. How it portrays hector and the grievances of dying before seeing your child grow old. It's an all around good movie and the arcs for all the characters makes sense. So I know what you're talking about, buddy.

[@newenatomic]

I have zero issue with this film, love every aspect of it, have watched it dozen of times, will watch again 😎

[@cristianbaranga5255]

Great video!

[@julianmarsh8384]

When this movie came out, and I read a review in the Review of Books detailing how it differed from the Iliad, I was dismayed and refused to watch it. Sometime later, I got around to viewing it and right at the beginning it says, "A film inspired by the Iliad." Emphasis on the word "inspired" and that gives the creators a lot of leeway. So, chill.

[@roguetrooper5288]

Typical Hollywood ignoring great source material. The story of Troy is as much about the gods as it is Achilles.

[@WilloPR]

Troy made $500,000,000.00 in revenue... I'm pretty sure there's nothing WRONG! with that. If they would have made it exactly like the Iliad it would have been a boring movie. I don't think 2004 was ready to see Achilles have gay sex with his cousin among many other things from the book that were not suitable for a 2004 Blockbuster.

[@CinemaAutopsy]

As most know, box office is not a metric for artistic quality. If it was, The Rock would be the best actor of all time. The point here wasn't that it had to be a copy of the Iliad, but that they should've kept the spine of the story, and stuck to its main theme: anger.

[@WilloPR]

@@CinemaAutopsy money is the metric for everything in this world...

[@wankawanka3053]

Diomedes will always be the best character in the iliad